Mini 1121: Nexusville Mafia.

[ICEninja]

/confirm

[ICEninja]

What time zone are you in?

Do you prefer RQS or RVS? Why?

How much mafia experience do you have?

I'm usually one to ask these questions, so I don't mind answering at all.
I live in PST, which is GMT-8 I believe.
For the most part, I don't find either the RVS or RQS very productive, and seek to end them as quick as I can. I generally ask a few questions to everyone, but it is more for my personal reference than learning anything about anyone's alignment.
I have played about 15 on site games, and a good number of party based mafia, though usually from the mod's seat.

I'd like to add this question:
About how much posting can we expect from you?

I post generally every day, often repeatedly, and with quite lengthy posts. Expect to hear a lot from me. I am, however, in the process of getting a job, which could significantly decrease my time spent here.

Weapons, you did something strange there. You voted Yoshi for "asking too many questions", but then you went ahead and answered them.

Implosion, you seem very interested in getting this game going. You began only 17 minutes after the 10th person confirmed, and jumped right in before the mod officially opened the game. You also made a second post, again only minutes after someone else initiated a post here. Are you normally this prompt with a new game?

[ICEninja]

No shit. IIoA, as they call it?

That's quite the response to such a small poke. You definitely don't seem to like attention early.

Also, it wasn't IIoA. I said it was a strange thing. Not inherently scummy (or I would have said scummy), but strange, and thus you've caught my attention for it. There wasn't much more analysis than what I presented that could have been made based on the information we had at the time of my posting.

Additionally, accusations of IIoA this early in the game are terrible, as we currently have

no

information, and gaining information is the most valuable commodity town has early in the game. Therefore that declaring information without analysis is bad at this point of the game (and actually vote worthy) would suggest you are playing to an anti-town mindset at best, and possibly even with scum motivation.

I'm glad others are noting that this is suspicious.

Vote WeaponsOfMassConstruction

And hello again mb. I'm looking forward to see how you've improved since your newbie games.

[ICEninja]

vote: implosion for making silly declaration

s

and drawing inane connection

s

on page one. This game is probably moving out of RVS rather quickly but dammit I haven't even posted yet!

Bold is mine. You seem to be implying that he's made multiple silly declarations and drawn multiple inane connections, which would imply by just reading this that he has done a minimum of 4 things wrong, when I can not count more than a single thing you could be referring to for each. You seem to be trying to stretch one (short) post in to a whole case there.

I do, however, agree that his declaration about the RVS being over was a bit silly. I also do agree that him connecting a particularly random RVS vote with distancing is fairly inane (scum do indeed use the RVS to distance themselves from their partner, but quite a few players placed RVS votes, so it is a null tell as town does it as well), but your vote going down seems to be more of irritation than actual scum suspicion.

Like Nameless, I'm having a hard time telling if your vote was serious or not. It sure looks serious when you read it.

[ICEninja]

I am now officially full time employed! Yay! On the other hand, I'll have much less time to devote to mafia than I'm used to, so boo.

As scum, it also continues to make sense for him to push this into a wagon due to others' previously stated suspicion, so ICE is my top scum read at the moment. I would also call silavor scum, but his last point was quite good about implosion/mb53.

And as town, it makes sense for me to pressure someone who made a contradiction. How is intentionally doing something scummy a trap? How is scum more likely than town to attack you? I'm just scum hunting. You did something weird, and I called you out for it. Now you're backing out saying "oh it was just a trap!". That got scum me lynched in another game, so I'm actually going to say this is a much bigger mark against you than me.

Will have time to address more later.

[ICEninja]

I have the feeling Ice is going to get on my nerves, and I think he's making mountains out of molehills (and yes, those are plural on purpose this time), but we really do have to start somewhere, and I don't see any malice in it at the moment. Overzealous maybe, but not scummy.

Yes I do this regularly as it accelerates the game and gets me better reads on people. Your response to my weak jab seemed town.

Definitely out of time now.

[ICEninja]

That's twice now you've made a (comparatively) lengthy post that amounts to no more than a verbose form of 'I agree'. I'm gonna keep an eye on that.

No, that's twice I've expanded upon my opinion that happens to agree (at least on a point) with another player's. I didn't explicitly say I agree with you, except in the point that, similar to what you said, I had a hard time deciding if his posts were scum tells or not. The rest of the post was expanding my opinions.

And yes, on the first page or two, I generally have to resort to extreme anal retention in order to actually make any form of case against anyone. As content is put forth, and more motivations are shown that can be analyzed, I am able to put forth much more coherent and scum hunting posts that give insight in to another player's alignment.

So Weapons, was your RVS vote a joke, or was it a trap? You keep insisting that it was a joke, but now you keep insisting that you knew scum was going to jump on it, and so you were waiting for it. You can't say it was both, because one undermines the other. And yes, I find contradictions scummy, though what you did wasn't a full blown scummy contradiction. I'm much more interested in you saying that this was a joking vote (and reinforcing it in post 50), and you saying that this was a scum trap, which you reinforced in 48, and VERY explicitly in post 58, using the following wording:

It was a contradiction, but taking all contradictions as scumtells (note the context and language there was

very purposeful

) is incredibly one-dimensional and an easy opportunistic route for scum to cast suspicion on people.

Bold emphasis was mine. So it was joking, but it was very purposeful? No, this is a blatant contradiction, obviously not on purpose, and yes this one is absolutely scummy. You're trying to get the benefit of having done something pro town, but at the same time squirming your way out of having done something scummy. You can't have it both ways.

[ICEninja]

I highly suspect ICEninja of causing the storm that has shut everything down. If my power goes out, I'm coming after you. (I shouldn't have to, but I better specify that this is a joke). Congrats on getting a job--that's not easy to do right now.

I've been so excited the past few days, I wouldn't be surprised if my leaping for joy has caused some kind of meteorological disturbance. And thank you, I gave the interview of a lifetime to get it.

Alright, I wasn't feeling too harshly about Mongoose simply based on 64, but after he got a lot of people suspecting him, he then goes and takes his vote off Q21 without comment, save that he had no reason to be voting him at all, and then put his vote on Weapons right after, as an "oops I forgot". That clearly states to me that his main purpose of posting was to unvote, and that voting was a secondary purpose. Having voting as a secondary purpose reads to me as doing so for appearance purposes and not because of genuine suspicion.

This is compounded by how he had literally

nothing

to add to the case against Weapons. This is really bad.

Regarding implosion's list, I feel like his positioning of nameless is extremely suspect. Why did you put nameless down as one of the scummiest? I can't find anything suspicious that he's done, and I can't find anything besides a random vote against him in anything you've said. You seemed to arbitrarily put him down there. Can you explain what he has done that you find scummy? Your stance against mongoose is fully justified and I agree with it, but like nameless, you haven't said anything about over9000.

mb, likewise, has some strange points in his list. Just 3 ISO posts previous, he votes implosion. He has said nothing about implosion since, and now rates him as one of his better town reads. I would definitely like to hear some justification for this. Exactly like implosion, you've put Nameless as one of the scummiest players without saying anything about him at all. I definitely feel like there is a bit of a connection between you two.

mb's vote for implosion earlier could easily be distancing, and they're both attacking the same players, and haven't given reasons for finding some of said players scummy. I don't like this at all.

What part are you having trouble with?

The part I am having trouble with is that your post seemed very quite tongue-in-cheek. Contradiction aside, I felt that it was far too tongue-in-cheek to be trying to actually use it as legitimate scum hunting and to place a vote over.

All the same, I actually agree with Weapon's analysis of neko. I do, however, agree with what most of neko is saying so I don't particularly find him scummy for it. Perhaps it isn't the best scum hunting, but he isn't looking as bad as Weapons or Mongoose.

[ICEninja]

Ice, if you agree with most of what I said, in what way do you also agree with WMC's assessment.

If you say the same thing twice, that doesn't mean I can't agree with it. I feel like you're rehashing some things which, while isn't inherently scummy, can lead to a trend of not presenting new information is. Weapons isn't wrong about what he said referring to your previous post, but that doesn't mean I feel like you aren't contributing.

By the way, I don't think the trend of posting a comprehensive list of scum and town reads needs to continue. Listing one's top scum suspects should suffice.

I, as well, will not be putting forth a comprehensive list. Those are meant for replacements and games in deadlocks. I shouldn't even need to point out a list of who I feel is scummy at the moment, as anyone who has read through my posts should have a good idea of who I suspect.

Neil, I know you aren't posting just because your name was thrown out, because you ninja'd me. However, he was absolutely right to call you out. You had only made a single post that contributed only a slight analysis of implosion. Now you just seem to be coming in to say "hi, I'm not posting. Sorry."

You don't have anything to add? What do you think about the case against Weapons? How do you feel about the wagon that built on Weapons? What did you think when reading the town to scum lists, beyond the obvious? Which players, scummy or not, need more attention right now? I don't see how it is even possible to not have some opinions to add here.

[ICEninja]

Hi everyone. I agree with everything. Bye!

No. I shouldn't even need to say why I'm doing this.

Unvote, vote _over9000

[ICEninja]

more comments on recent posts when I have time. I'm really suspicious of neil as well, because of the parallel between his disinterest in this game and his disinterest in our game together when he was scum.

[ICEninja]

Alright it is the weekend and I'm going to bring back the contribution.

Firstly, here is the newbie game that neil was scum in.
Newbie 1036
He lurked a lot and was "busy" all the time. He was finally hammered after repeatedly not contributing to the game, and we landed a lurker scum. While he never replaced out, I'm seeing a lot of similarity in his play this game before replacing. I'll judge King by his own contribution, but he's going to be starting from a negative position because of this.

I think out of all the players we have right now, Zdenek is the lurkiest. He drops in every now and then, but doesn't seem to have any strong opinions. His current vote is very outdated and very weak, really, and I haven't seen him give any further reason to be voting Silavor or anyone else right now. Zdenek, who do you find scummy and why?

I don't like, at all, that neil claimed. He wasn't under any pressure to do so, and it seemed to be a bit panicked. If he doesn't like playing a VT, then he probably shouldn't be playing this game because that is the role you're going to get 2/3s of the games you play.

I was under the assumption there was two because I'm used to games with two scum in them, but I can see how having 13 players could warrant there being three scum. It's not a scumslip, just a sign of being inexperienced, and an oversight for not paying attention to how many players there were.

Have you ever played in a mini here before, or is your only mafiascum experience with newbie games?

In my experience, setting yourself up to jump on a wagon for a reason that hasn't occurred yet = scum.

I'll agree with this. While I don't feel like Yoshi is being unreasonable, scum Yoshi could really be giving himself options at this point.

The fact is that this is pretty much all I have to add, though I'm sure that won't be enough for some people.

This is terrible. This right here screams to me "I know I'm scummy but don't vote for me anyway".

Neither Mongoose nor Weapons have done much to dissuade my suspicion of them.

[ICEninja]

I don't want to be mean or anything, but that's basically the same thing neil said in that newbie game I linked, that really crazy RL stuff was going on. Perhaps they are linked, and his alignment has little to do with it. Perhaps it is an excuse. I can't really say for sure.

Zdenek, would you continue to find silavor scummy had he not done what 21 "caught" him on?

[ICEninja]

Nameless, coin flip aside, lets say we're in a situation where it matters. Let's just say, hypothetically speaking, mb and implosion both have L-1 wagons and you're the only remaining player not voting. The deadline is in 2 hours and town loses a lynch if you don't vote. Which do you pick to hammer? Why?

[ICEninja]

q21, my meta demonstration (not on replacing out but on being disinterested in a game and using RL excuses) are more conclusive, but still on the null side of making him scummy. We definitely don't really have much against neil, but should his replacement do anything scummy, he will have done so from a bad position already. That is my view on things.

Zdenek, so you really think silavor's first vote was that scummy? I see your logic there, and sure it is a point, but it just seems so small to me. I'm much more interested in silavor supposedly knowing how many scum are in this game. HOWEVER, I believe it

only

weighs anything if we have a double scum team game going on, and he therefore only has 1 partner. If this is a standard mini, there will be 3 scum, and the point will be absolutely moot. The fact that he's previously only played newbie games (which are semi-open setups with 2 scum every time) I don't really buy being able to lynch silavor based on the information we had. In fact, if there is only 1 scum family, I'm inclined to believe silavor is town because of this. I wouldn't put him as experienced enough to come up with a fake slip indicating that he knows how many scum there are.

Again, if new information leads us to understand that there are 2 scum teams with a pair of scum each, then yes that was a huge scum slip, and I feel like it would be absolutely vote-worthy.

I don't like implosion's views right now at all. He's basically calling people out for voting the scummiest players. What do you want us to do? Pressure players who we don't believe are scummy? Of course I'm going to vote for the "easiest" player to wagon, because it means he's the scummiest. I felt like Weapon's original wagon built in the first couple pages was suspect, considering how many people jumped on that and with so little to add, but I don't see a single vote for over9000 right now that isn't completely justified.

This is

especially

bad, because implosion himself has declared over9000 to be scummy (in his list, over9000 is the very bottom). A scum flip on over9000 is going to really make me look over all these points deeply, because I can easily see scum trying to distance themselves from their partners, calling them scummy, and simultaneously trying to discredit the wagon against scum.

[ICEninja]

I feel like implosion is quickly becoming the scummiest player right now. However, if he has a very specific mindset (that I won't state right now), then I feel like his defense is adequate. My position on him and whether or not I will be voting him depends largely on how he answers this question:

If you believe that there is scum on over9000's wagon regardless of his alignment, why do you believe the situation is more likely to be he is town with scum on his wagon than scum with scum on his wagon?

I also do not like King's vote and quick unvote at all.

[ICEninja]

Where did I say that I thought it was more likely town with scum on the wagon? IIRC, the only statement I've made about 9000's alignment is that he does appear scummy.

I'd say your current vote indicates that you believe over9000 is more likely town than scum. Why do you believe this? If I am wrong, please explicitly state how you feel. As I said, how you answer this is critical to where my vote goes. I will explain my reasoning and thought process after you respond.

No. In fact, I agree that he is scummy, and I'm sure that there is town on his wagon (theoretically it could be all scum, but doubtful). I just think that given the situation, context, and what _over9000 has said so far, that his wagon is likely to contain scum.

Once again, here you state that you find him scummy, but insist that there

must

(in this post you say "is likely" to) be scum on his wagon and vote for them.

[ICEninja]

I'll catch up some today. Expect some quality posting from me.

[ICEninja]

But you don't seem to think putting mongoose and me on the same scum team logistically makes sense, do you?

I'm not concerned about scum teams. It is day 1. Sure there are connections here and there, but right now I'm just concerned about finding who is the single most scummiest player and lynching them. Hopefully I'll have time this weekend to hammer out exactly who I feel is that single most player, who are the honorable mentions, with full cases and reasoning behind it.

I haven't been giving "non committal clouds of suspicion". I've been pointing out scummy things people are doing and calling them out for it. Very different.

But why would he be doing that now if over is town when he could do it tommorow and not call attention to himself?

In my experience, scum doesn't always make the most optimal play. Neither does town. If town always made the best play for town and scum always made the best play for scum, how could we possibly play? It looks as if he made a scum motivated action that probably wasn't the best thing for him to do. How does that make him not scum?

The only thing that my current vote indicates is that my largest scum read is mongoose. I believe there to be scum on the _over9000 wagon - however, there are several people on the wagon and I find mongoose overall the scummiest of everyone. I find _over9000 scummy, but I have no strong read on his alignment at the moment.

Stop dodging my questions. Just stop. You are voting for mongoose because you think he is SCUMMIER than over9000. Do you think it is MORE likely that over9000 is town and scum is taking advantage of a scummy looking townie, or MORE likely that over9000 is scum and that mongoose is busing him, or that they have roughly equal chances? Be very very specific and clear in you explanation, and I am NOT going to let this slide if you keep not answering what I'm asking.

WeaponsofMassConstruction's wall of text focuses FAR too much on scumteams for D1. As town, this a crapshoot and actually damaging when you then start ignoring individual tells. As scum, this is a possible method to set up future mislynches and protect scumbuddies.

I completely agree. It is totally fine to point out connections between players, but to base your scum hunting around who is partnered with who when we have

zero flips

is scum motivated, because town has NO information right now. Scum has some information, and therefore can try to set up future lynches here.

So far I don't mind the stuff Saint has to say about this game. I am willing to let his own contribution dictate my read of him, but like King, he's going to have an uphill battle to convince me of a town read. So for now I'll:

Unvote

and await implosion's actual response to my questions.

[ICEninja]

I said I had no strong read on _over9000's alignment.

Let me go back and quote some things (almost everything, in fact) that you've said about over9000.

scum:
mongoose
nameless
over9000

As for _Over9000, His ISO 2 seems overly cautious and his ISO 3 seems overly unnecessary

He's a really easy target, and I'd bet there's at least one scum on his wagon right now. He seems like too easy of a person for scum to pressure for them to pass up, unless he is scum, in which case I still think they'd be inclined to bus him.

I never once objected to lynching _over9000.

Where did I say that I thought it was more likely town with scum on the wagon? IIRC, the only statement I've made about 9000's alignment is that he does appear scummy.

No. In fact, I agree that he is scummy, and I'm sure that there is town on his wagon (theoretically it could be all scum, but doubtful).

Something isn't adding up. You can't say all of that, then tell us you think it is equally likely for him to be scum and to be town. If you think he's scum and buddies are busing him, then help them bus and lynch scum. If you think he is town and that scum is on his wagon, then you need to specifically point out who is the most likely to be scum and why, as you said yourself you believe there to be town on his wagon.

You haven't done this. Quickly scanning your ISO shows that you are voting mongoose for silly RVS reasons initially, then pressuring him to answer questions. You seem to think he's scummy, but you've never actually stated why he's more likely to be scum than anyone else who voted over9000, unless I missed something.

So yes, implosion is absolutely scummy right now.

Vote implosion

.

[ICEninja]

I am also surprised that ICE had no problem with that post—ICE, why didn’t you?

I don't like to speculate too much on the setup. It is interesting that he jumped to the conclusion of SK, I didn't think too much about it at first. He gave a bit of reasoning as to why he fit in to the SK play style, but I'm not sure how that differs from scum play on day 1.

Saint, what causes you to believe that he is more likely to be an SK than scum with the information we have?

I see where Nameless is coming from with his analysis of Saint's tone, and will pay close attention to any further buddying that he does.

Mongoose needs to be replaced.

Truer words are rarely said. Or typed.

[ICEninja]

My goodness, it is getting extremely hard to keep track of everything and everyone. I really hope day 2 smooths things out a bit, and I really hope the need for replacements stops.

I still thing implosion is extremely scummy. I think Saint is mildly scummy due to his predecessor and partially because of his all over the place posting. I know I'm going to have a scum read on Emp, just because he plays in a way that I personally believe benefits scum, so I'll have to check his meta before passing full judgment on him.

I don't like people accusing mb of being scum for changing his reads in the face of a strong case. Mb is sticking to his guns on suspecting Saint for what I feel are pretty solid reasons, so I won't get on his case about that. I do, however, feel like mb has some fairly harsh tunnel vision. A quick scan of his ISO shows that on his 5th, he voted for over9000, and never moved his vote from the slot. I agree that the slot is scummy, but I'm not seeing much from you about any other player slots.

Emp, for the record, I'm going to more or less ignore your gut reads if you can't back them up with anything. No it is not "obvious" why Nameless is scummy. He's done a few suspicious things, but seems to be scum hunting. If you want anyone else to suspect him, you're going to have to tell us why he's suspicious.

[ICEninja]

Oh and I want to add one thing.

I don't see how my catchup was scummy or fluffy.
I feel like you all are just pushing an easy wagon.

This is terrible. You just essentially said "I feel like you are all just pushing the scummiest looking player", and had an undertone that it is scummy to do so.

You're easily up there with implosion as scummiest players, and while I don't like to decide scum teams without flips, I can pretty easily see a connection between you two. I'll keep it in mind if one of you flips scum.

[ICEninja]

As for other player slots.... I'm having difficulty getting any reads. Most of you are null. Implosion is leaning scum now (at least until I hear his defense). Some slight town reads too, but you all are a tough bunch to read...

The constant replacements don't help, that's for sure.

[ICEninja]

LOL IM VOTING HIM TO BE LYNCHED
YOU'RE JOKING?
GO LOOK AT THE LAST VOTECOUNT
LOL

What? Funny how you ignore my accusation towards you in favor of trying to distance yourself from implosion. You skipped over the important part of my post and boy did that second half make you jumpy. Also:

you're keeping your vote because I know you are scum with implosion
nice try to make it not appear like it's anything else, liar

This doesn't even make sense. He is voting you because you "know" he's scum with implosion?

I'm totally fine for a lynch of either Saint or implosion.

Not before the replacements weigh in, though.

[ICEninja]

I have things to say about other posts, but responding to this one is going to take all the time I have today.

In his first post, he casts suspicion on WMC for what seemed pretty obviously a joke when I read it

I make an active effort to push the game out of useless RVS in to meaningful discussion nearly every game, as both town and scum. This is a totally null point.

This is where Weapons posts that the contradiction was a trap he set. This makes no sense at all - first where it seemed like a joke and second with the timing of how everything went down. Why would he say that we'd all missed something like he did (which is also more likely if it was a joke we missed) - and why draw attention to it like this if it was a trap? His timing for saying it was a trap is off, too. He's under pressure, being wagoned and this seems more like a desperate measure.

If you'll read my posts carefully, you'll notice that we're actually in some agreement here. This is the point where I really started to feel like he was scummy, not before. I thought what he did was odd, and that was the best lead I had for page 2, but this was where I actually had my first scum vibes.

Ice then posts calling out mongoose for voting weapons without giving reason and then gives implosion a free pass for posting a scum list with no reasoning. Instead he focuses on asking why nameless was listed as scummy.

I gave him a free pass? I thought the list he provided was scummy, and presented reasons why. You're seriously misrepresenting what happened here.

He also says he agrees with what neko is saying so he doesn't find him scummy. Since when is someone not scum because they agree with you? This free pass is very suspicious.

I liked neko's reasoning and (to an extent) felt like he was scum hunting. If i find myself nodding along with what people are saying, that gives me a town read on people. It makes me feel like we're thinking on the same track.

I admit that I found Saint increasingly suspicious as time went on. His initial replacement in was alright (albeit annoying), but the quality of his posts really started to drop off. Also, others pointed things out that I hadn't spent enough time considering (such as his SK accusation), which impacted my point of view.

So then ice says there's a connection between implosion and saint (he doesn't say what the connection is of course – just sets up a future lynch of saint if implosion flips scum. Or vice versa. Check and check.)

Did you even read my vote post of implosion? If that isn't connection to over9000 then I don't know what is. I thought it was so blatantly obvious that I didn't have to repeat myself with what the connection was.

Nice that you can safely be on both leading wagons too!

Funny that you accuse me of being able to safely be on both leading wagons when I made a very strong case against implosion that no one else had even noticed, and have been suspicious of Saint's slot the entire game. Sure you can put your own spin on things, but a quick read of my ISO should clearly show that I'm not setting up any lynches. These are my suspicions, and I've explained clearly why.

You've got some fairly good scum hunting in there, but you really haven't presented any reasoning for me being scum.

[ICEninja]

If you thought it was scummy that Implosion posted a list at all, why didn't you say so here instead of responding to the list like you did with no mention of thinking it shouldn't have been posted?

It was early enough in the game where if his reads lined up with his actions and such, then it wouldn't have been a hugely big deal. I felt like MB's list was a lot scummier at that point, and even more so because of his "oops I forgot that was scummy" sentiment after. The fact that someone posted an entire town-scum list with having placements inconsistent with what they said is hugely scummy. The fact that he just placed a list like that isn't smart play in my book, but it doesn't indicate scum.

So not only are you following neko like a lapdog, you never did say it was scummy and then you tried to throw suspicion on me for saying I "seriously misrepresented" what happened.

You did seriously misrepresent me, because you stated that I gave him a free pass. I absolutely did not. I found his list scummy, and I stated why. How is that in any way shape or form a free pass? As I stated already, the way his list was constructed was a lot scummier of an action than placing one at all, and it was much more worth the attention. I stand by my reasons to not post a list, but I don't think someone is scum just because they posted a list. I do, however, think someone is scum if they post a list indicating someone as scum when they haven't even shown anything to indicate them actually being scum.

Oh, and I didn't have a change of heart? Did you notice my post in between those 2 when I said:

This is terrible. You just essentially said "I feel like you are all just pushing the scummiest looking player", and had an undertone that it is scummy to do so.

You're easily up there with implosion as scummiest players, and while I don't like to decide scum teams without flips, I can pretty easily see a connection between you two. I'll keep it in mind if one of you flips scum.

You told me that I never explained a connection between implosion and Saint? I did it in MULTIPLE posts. You're clearly not reading my posts or taking them severely out of context.

I feel like Emp's arguments against King are fairly weak. I don't really see you doing a lot of scum hunting. Then again, King isn't a strong town read of mine either.

Nameless's post is amazing.

[ICEninja]

I was gonna unvote and vote Emp, but then noticed that he's mongoose's replacement and I already have a vote on him.

Voting someone because of his predecessor. Why? Because of apparently:

I voted mongoose for a contradiction or something (I think, too lazy to go back and check) and then for not answering a question.

You can't even remember. Look back at your reasons, they were pretty awful. The fact that you continue to hold your vote for those original reasons means your scum hunting has come to a complete and total standstill.

I'm also building up suspicion of ICE, partially because I honestly don't see why he's focusing so much on one thing that I said in passing.

He suspects me because I'm scum hunting him. This isn't something you said in passing, this is regarding your (still current) scum reads. It is extremely valid, even now.

Plus, although I may have been somewhat unclear, he is presenting a contradiction where none exists.

You've said over9000 is scummy, repeatedly, but you don't believe he's scum? How is this not a contradiction? How can you find someone scummy but not have a read on their alignment? What does it even MEAN to find someone scummy? This is absolutely a contradiction, one of severe fence sitting. Highly scummy.

And he was on the _over9000 wagon.

Right. I was voting for a scummy player. THAT sure makes me scum.

[ICEninja]

I have to think only scum would consider voting someone else in order to live another day. Saying "but I wanna lynch scum!" right after doesn't negate the sentiment of this sentence. If it were just one of you or _over in this playslot, I might be more open to your saying that your wagon looks like an easy lynch, but when two different players in the same playslot are exuding scumminess? You're now climbing up the ranks of my scumlist.

I pretty much thought the exact same thing when reading this, but forgot to go back and include my analysis of Saint in my recent posts.

I somewhat get the impression that he's buddying up to me a bit by "defending" me, but then simultaneously saying he'd vote me to save himself, simply because there's a wagon on me gaining steam. I'm definitely going to affirm my lynch preferences of implosion and Saint, and I doubt I'll find another today. This is especially true because I feel like if one of them flips scum, we'll have a lot to analyze about the other, and could likely lead us to nailing 2 scum in a row.

I'd like to remind everyone that we're on our last week before the deadline, and should probably come to a lynch decision in the next 3 days or so.

[ICEninja]

Alright, I definitely feel like Emp is a bit on the scummy side, but just look how implosion is taking advantage of the town's push against Emp. I'll take an Emp lynch over a no lynch, but I really feel like I've got such a commanding case against implosion that I just don't want to move off of it. Whats more is that a scum lynch on either Saint or implosion gives us so much information on the other, and that is just too sweet for me to pass up.

I feel like King is probably the most town right now that his slot has ever been, which is pretty much just under neutral.

The case against Emp is decent, and there are definitely points against Mongoose as well. I still just don't think he's as likely to flip scum as implosion.

That being said, I do agree with a couple of your other points—especially him not calling out Implosion after the scumlist.

Come on man, I had lots of respect for you. Why is it scummy to not call someone out for something that I don't think is particularly scummy? Yeah it is anti-town, but how he oriented his scum list was just so much scummier. MB did the same thing, even worse, but I don't think he can be scum if we get an implosion scum flip, as no scum buddy would follow their partner in a connection like that. This is an even further reason to lynch implosion, in my mind.

I admit I'm not 100% fully caught up to the game at the moment, I'm still a little bit behind, but I'll be fully caught up on Saturday, before the deadline.

[ICEninja]

Empking has moved up in my scum list (to second), but his claim of mason is interesting. I still think implosion is the single scummiest player in the game by a fair margin, and if Emp is telling the truth about being a mason, he could be completely cleared.

I definitely feel like we should lynch implosion today. If he flips scum, then I feel like there would be a very strong existing connection between implosion and Saint's slot. If Emp is a mason, then we really want Emp to live today. Without Emp outing his mason buddy, we won't have any way to prevent scum from claiming mason buddy.

That being said, we can't let Emp live more than a day or two anyway, so he'll be lynched soon. If Emp is a mason, then his buddy will be more inclined to save him when he isn't so close to a deadline lynch. Lynching him today is just the inferior option all around.

If no one is down for an implosion lynch today, then I'll vote Emp. However, I still really feel strongly about scum implosion.

[ICEninja]

If we arn't lynching Emp because of his mason claim, then In the spirit of actually playing the game well I would like to say that the other people I suspect are Saint and Pie.

I still think implosion is a way better lynch than Saint, but I wouldn't oppose it. Whats your reasoning for Pie?

I'd like to point out to everyone that implosion all the sudden feels like Saint is town. He also claims to never have a read on over9000, despite having called him scummy (apparently in implosion's book, scummy =/= scum aligned?) and behaved so oddly to the wagon.

Saint is scummy too, but for some reason a wagon never really built on him. That is interesting, though, and makes me further suspicious of him. I'll have to look again at how many people called him scummy without ever having their vote on the slot.

I still want an implosion lynch, though.

[ICEninja]

Alright I still think we need to be lynching implosion. Take a look at him, seriously. Look how much he tries to resist answering my question straight, look at how he keeps beating around the bush, and look at how he drops off the radar the instant pressure is taken off him.

All of these points are IN ADDITION to the fact that he was calling someone scummy but had "no read on his alignment".

I could possibly be convinced to switch back to Saint, but I genuinely think implosion needs to be today's lynch. I see the recent case again MB, and that would be my 3rd pick. I'm not a huge fan of the case against Nameless, and I'm not a huge fan of the case against King, though neither of them are town reads in my eyes.

I just feel like town really doesn't need to be lynching Empking today. Tomorrow we can talk about it when we aren't so close to the deadline, have a flip, and have a better chance of really getting down to the bottom of things. If he is indeed a mason, and gets cleared, that puts scum in a really bad spot tomorrow. If he is indeed a mason and we lynch him today, then his mason buddy has no way to really claim safely, and scum could fake claim it to force us in to lylo. If he's scum, he's going to get lynched, plain and simple. There's no rush.

More implosion votes, please.

[ICEninja]

I have no idea why I thought implosion was town.

So vote him. He's scum. Emp can be discussed tomorrow.

[ICEninja]

This game is disappointing, as town isn't really coming together very well.

I still want an implosion lynch, but I'll switch to MB or Saint (I think at this point the preference is MB) but it isn't what I really want to do.

I'll post on some stuff before deadline.

[ICEninja]

Yeah, things haven't changed my mind much. We still really need to be lynching implosion. I'll take a good hard look at Nameless's end of day 1 play, however. If that comes up fishy, then I might be inclined to suspect him.

I'm still a bit worried about Empking, but if he's scum then he is guaranteed going to die before the game is over so he isn't a huge priority for me right now.

Saint still looks like a fair lynch too, but I'm still favoring implosion. If implosion flips scum, I'm probably going to barrel down on Saint until he's dead, due to their day 1 interactions leading a connection that runs even deeper than Saint's scummy play.

If implosion is town, however, I'm not sure where I'll go from there.

[ICEninja]

Besides, why Pie's list? Why not mb's? Other than Saint, he listed implosion and swiftstrike. Why shouldn't we be looking into them? I don't have the time for it now, but I'd like to look at possible connections here.

We shouldn't be looking in to implosion because Saint and implosion are scum buddies, remember? Saint was actually on the implosion wagon, pushing quite hard, but fell off that wagon once town was distracted and never looked back. Coincidence? I think not.

Please explain this.

Unless Empking gets cleared as town (by cop or mason buddy or whatever) then we're going to lynch him before lylo, plain and simple. Should he end up cleared, then he'll be a very valuable asset to town (masons are some of the strongest PRs late game, save maybe a jail keeper) and will have to be NKed anyway. If not then he's scum and we're going to lynch him. We have time.

[ICEninja]

Alright I reread nameless. He's pretty town. And he's probably right about Saint (who I believe is a likely scum buddy with implosion). I'm definitely not going to be voting Nameless today unless there is some significant information I missed. He was dead right about the mb wagon that sprung up. Sure mb wasn't the most town player, but he wasn't implosion.

Both Saint and implosion were on the mb wagon. He was the easiest non Saint/implosion person for scum to wagon, so this further supports my theory.

[ICEninja]

Alright, I like the reasons for voting Saint. I'm on board.

Unvote, vote Saint

.

That being said, I disagree that scum wanted to be off the wagon. If Saint is scum, then scum was guaranteed voting for mb to make sure Saint doesn't get killed to prevent a no-lynch.

To be honest I'm not perfectly sure how I'd feel about Nameless based on a town Saint flip. I'm not positive where I'd direct myself from that point on, as I'd probably have to do some serious reading at that point. I'd look at players who I don't have clear reads on, like Zdenek and such. I'd probably also think about Emp again, as without any strong leads, we're eventually going to have to talk about him. If we're confused day 3, he might be a good lynch assuming no one clears him.

I don't want to think too much about what would happen down the road, though. I feel like I've seen a strong connection between Saint and implosion that indicates scum buddies, but other than that, day 3 will bring what day 3 brings. We should be talking about who is scummy

now

.

[ICEninja]

@ICE: Has your read on Emp changed? IIRC, you were pretty against lynching him on D1, but #620 is the second time already on D2 that you’ve expressed (unprompted) suspicion of Emp.

I never said I wasn't suspicious of him, I just said that lynching him was a bad idea. I feel like I've made my point fairly clear in saying that I want to wait until day 3 or so, at which point it is much safer for a mason buddy to clear him, or for a cop to claim. Should Emp be cleared at day 3, that forces scum to decide who to night kill during nights 3 and 4, and forcing them to night kill Emp, which is good because then they aren't night killing a townie player.

Alternatively if he's scum, no one is going to be clearing him during day 3, as it is too early for scum to claim mason partner, as a cop investigate would result in netting us 2 scum. Therefore I feel it is pretty safe that we decide his fate during day 3.

As I said in my first post of the day, none of my reads really changed much. I still think an Emp lynch should wait, I still think implosion and Saint are scum, I still think you and Nameless are town. I had a null read on Pie, so I didn't mind him being NKed. I probably won't be changing any of those 5 reads unless a cop comes out and says something. At this point I'm assuming that we aren't going to have a cop claim day 2.

I understand Setael's reasons for voting Saint, but considering you had a town read on him yesterday, doesn't it seem sort of sudden to switch to a Saint vote based on what you just said? You're essentially supporting an information lynch.

I think I know who I'm going to be suspicious of now if Saint flips town.

[ICEninja]

you jumped from finding Saint "mildly scummy" to being ready to lynch him within minutes.

I did, hmm? How about we take a look at every single post I've made during day 2 so far:

Saint still looks like a fair lynch too, but I'm still favoring implosion. If implosion flips scum, I'm probably going to barrel down on Saint until he's dead, due to their day 1 interactions leading a connection that runs even deeper than Saint's scummy play.

We shouldn't be looking in to implosion because Saint and implosion are scum buddies, remember? Saint was actually on the implosion wagon, pushing quite hard, but fell off that wagon once town was distracted and never looked back. Coincidence? I think not.

Alright I reread nameless. He's pretty town. And he's probably right about Saint (who I believe is a likely scum buddy with implosion). I'm definitely not going to be voting Nameless today unless there is some significant information I missed. He was dead right about the mb wagon that sprung up. Sure mb wasn't the most town player, but he wasn't implosion.

Both Saint and implosion were on the mb wagon. He was the easiest non Saint/implosion person for scum to wagon, so this further supports my theory.

Alright, I like the reasons for voting Saint. I'm on board

So I went from thinking he's mildly scummy to being ready to lynch him in minutes? He went from being scum I wanted to lynch tomorrow to scum I want to lynch today. Big difference.

Yes, I agree that you HAVE reasons for lynching him (information is always good to have), but considering you had a TOWN read on him yesterday, the reasons you gave to justify voting him were bad. Basically, I liked your vote, but not your reasons for it.

Now your vote for me is bad and OMGUS.
Saint/implosion is still a better lynch though.

[ICEninja]

There is so much wrong with Saint's last post, I'm feeling pretty confident of this one.

considering two townie deaths, and the fact i'm a townie, it would really benefit the town to get all our cards out on the table, to properly lynch between counterclaims/the townie pool

It also tells scum who to night kill. For the rest of the game.

EVERYONE needs to claim for this to work.

I assure you that you will not get support for this from everyone.

Well, I guess IPie was wrong. Nothing unusual there, he's terrible.

What? Your entire reasoning for voting who you voted at the beginning of day 2 was you sheeping Pie. Now you're saying "oh he was wrong and terrible" without any actual new information added to the table. You've COMPLETELY undermined your own previous vote. This would actually benefit scum Saint, as Pie pointed you as a good lynch candidate, too. I think he was dead on the money about that.

He also has been really wishy washy on who he wants to lynch (anyone other than him)

Ahem. Pot, kettle, black, etc. Scum love to point out their flaws in other people. The mistakes are easier for them to see. I do this as scum, and I've caught scum on this before.

I would consider joining you on implosion...

Let me show town exactly what you're ACTUALLY saying:

How could you want me lynched if implosion is scum? I would

lynch

bus

his ass so fast. He is my

#2 candidate right now behind nameless

back up lynch to gain town cred if things go wrong

. I knew

there would be a wagon on me

town caught me

, so I

tried

to be protown

(only scum has to try to)

, but I guess you guys

don't know what that really means

aren't falling for it

.

It also seems awfully convenient that the 2 people you want to lynch (Nameless and implosion) are the ones that are most likely to be lynched besides you. You started off at the beginning of day 2 wanting to lynch Emp, who originally looked like he'd be the most likely person to be lynched that isn't you. If an ICE wagon got support, I bet you'd hop right on to that just to save your own skin, wouldn't you?

This thread needs more implosion, Emp, and Zdenek. And votes for Saint.

[ICEninja]

Swift, I'm sorry. I meant to include that in another post but forgot to.

What I mean is that Emp is not a very pro-town player right now, regardless of his alignment. Regardless of him being scum, mason, or even VT, he's hurt the town and has done very little to help. If he is indeed a mason and is cleared by a mason buddy, then scum has no choice but to night kill him as he'll be a town aligned player that town won't be lynching. This would then prevent scum from night killing one of the people who are genuinely helping town.

Setael, I liked your reasons because I like the information a Saint lynch gives. I said something similar about implosion, but I've found implosion scummy anyway. I also like the idea of lynching Saint. However, you found Saint scummy for all of a page or two, when you said he was town yesterday. I like your reasons, but they aren't good enough considering YOUR situation. Its a double standard because I found him scummy yesterday where you found him town yesterday.

[ICEninja]

(and entertaining—I actually LOLed at his redaction of Saint’s words at the bottom of #637)

I actually really appreciate this. I usually put on a very serious and logical face when I play mafia, but more of my true self showed through in that post. It was a bit out of character, but I was going for a laugh.

[ICEninja]

Why did you leave Implosion off the list?

I know this has already been pointed out, but did you even read what you quoted? Implosion was the first on the list.

Speaking of people who haven't been reading carefully:

What I mean is that Emp is not a very pro-town player right now, regardless of his alignment. Regardless of him being scum, mason, or even VT, he's hurt the town and has done very little to help.

Please provide examples.

Seriously? Did you pay any attention at all to what Emp was saying about King yesterday? I really shouldn't need to give examples of this. I obviously can't provide examples of him doing very little to help, except by citing every one of his posts as being more or less non scum hunting. Right now he's happy with an information lynch on someone he still has a mild town read on. How is this guy

not

a threat to the town regardless of his alignment?

[ICEninja]

Implosion, yes I have said a lot about you and Saint being scum buddies. You both happen to be my biggest scum reads, and you happen to have connections to each other. No matter how useless trying to form scum teams during day 1 is, I really think you both are going to flip scum. I can't vote for both of you at the same time, so I'll be happy lynching one of you today. Town has shown me several good reasons why it is a better idea to lynch Saint today than you.

Implosion continues to horribly fence sit regarding Saint. More evidence that he is scum, and even MORE evidence that he is scum after Saint flips scum.

I don't have knowledge of the setup. I mean, seriously. The guy claimed mason. If he's telling the truth, he's got a mason buddy. So if he can be cleared by a mason, yes I'm going to assume there is a mason in this game. Also, I don't want to give scum information, but I have suspicion there's a cop in this game, based on my own observations. Whats to say I wasn't just saying that to encourage any possible cop of confirming the alignment of Empking?

And Setael, no I don't "know" Saint is town. I think he's scum. I've been wrong before, and it will happen again, but I think he's scum. Also, believe me when I say I suck as scum. I really am scum hunting here.

[ICEninja]

You both admit that speculation is useless and say that you're going to continue doing it... sigh.

It isn't even speculation at this point. I think you're scum. I think Saint is scum. I ALSO think that you two are scum together. It simply makes sense and I have presented reasoning why. These are the reads that my scum hunting has gathered me.

I agree, I am fence sitting. I'm getting very mixed ideas about Saint's slot. I'm really unsure about it at this point.

You say that you have a neutral slightly leaning town read on the Saint slot. If you can't get a wagon on me, then your second alternative is to turn around and lynch a neutral slightly leaning town player for an information lynch. What does this say about the quality of your scum hunting? Scum doesn't need to get reads on people, they already know who is town and who is scum. Town needs to really dig deep and get reads for themselves as to who is scum.

Okay, first off, you saying that you think there's a cop in the game based on your own observation is both 1) completely unverifiable (since verification would mean outing someone that you apparently think is a cop)

Why would I want to verify this? I don't want a cop to claim until he/she has sufficient information to make it worth being night killed.

and 2) completely scummy (since town members will be focusing on finding mafia rather than finding town power roles or trying to figure out a closed setup).

If you've never been looking for scum and found PR tells then you simply aren't reading carefully enough. It happens, during the course of examining people's play, that you find what people's motives are. Scum and town have very different motives. PRs and VTs have slightly different motives. Just because I'm not looking for them doesn't mean I don't find them.

Second off, you've basically admitted that you're speculating about the setup and have based some of your reasoning on speculation.

If by "basing some of my reasoning on speculation" you mean trying to figure out if Emp's mason claim checks out or not, then yes. I am doing that because town needs to know if he's a mason or if he's scum. I didn't realize this is scummy.
If by "basing some of my reasoning on speculation" you mean having you and Saint pegged as likely scum buddies, I'm assuming there is more than 1 scum in this game so there's no speculation involved there.
I haven't based ANY reasoning of any kind on there being a cop or not in this game.

Unfortunately for you, the wagon on me taking off isn't terribly likely. You're better off jumping on the Saint wagon now and trying to put together a good reason to do it in order to gain some shred of town cred for tomorrow.

[ICEninja]

It makes me giggle to see how much OMGUS there is in my wagon.

Saint and implosion have shown a desire to lynch each other but always hedge, seeming to make sure it doesn't actually happen. They say they want to lynch each other but their actions imply they don't want the other person's lynch. Then they go for the person who wants them lynched without solid reasoning. Tsk.

scum lurking imo

So we agree on one thing. I do not like how much Zdenek is flying under the radar for day 2.

It's like saying, hey, guys, lynch this guy... even if I'm usually wrong about who I lynch, or my reads... when in fact, he probably DOES know I'm town.

First of all, I did

not

say I'm usually wrong. I said I've been wrong before, and I will be wrong again. Have you been wrong before about your town reads? Will you be wrong again?

I think I'm right, but in mafia you have to get used to the idea of being wrong once in a while. NOT a scum mindset at all, because scum is (almost) always right about their alignment reads (barring multiple scum teams and 3rd party).

I don't see why I had a town read on this guy.

Because you weren't desperate then. It didn't benefit scum Saint to have a scum read on me. I'm probably the easiest non-Saint lynch right now, so of course you're going to jump on my wagon.

Implosion and I have both addressed a willingness to wagon the other
he said, and I quote, "I am willing to lynch saint if iceninja's wagon doesn't get going", and I pushed him and MB as a scumteam yesterday, WHERE I TRIED TO WAGON HIM FOR LIKE A WEEK.

Implosion has never actually shown that he is willing to lynch you, only suggested he is. You've shown that you're willing to lynch him, but will speedily hop off in favor of another target.

Yoshi, how about you hop on the Saint wagon and put him at L-1? After he flips scum, we'll have an incredibly solid case to push against implosion tomorrow. I simply don't think we're going to get enough support for an implosion lynch without a scum flip on Saint first. I actually do admit that a decent amount of my case against implosion relies on Saint's flip, where Saint looks scummy regardless. It just makes more sense to lynch Saint first.

[ICEninja]

Ah my bad. Saint really is terrible if he's town.

He's claimed fur, which could very well explain his behavior, but even fur gets scum role PMs. I believe this to be one of such instances.

Pretty sure he is though

This seems slightly at odds with you thinking Saint is really terrible if he's town.

[ICEninja]

You're grasping at straws to paint me scummy.

I'm not trying to paint you scummy. I'm pointing out scummy things you're doing. There's a difference.

Even if he flips scum my bet is somehow you'll find a way to pin that on me.

Have you even read anything I've been saying? If Saint flips scum I'm going to be rock solid on implosion, not you.

[ICEninja]

I gave Yoshi way too much of a town cred this game, which is a bummer. You played fantastically.

I was really screwed by Empking. I investigated him, got a town read so I was SO SURE he was a mason. I said that I would want to lynch him on day 3 and pretended that I found a cop tell to distract scum when night killing to keep both of us alive. After getting an innocent on Implosion (which I wasn't expecting, but whatever) I would have asked both masons to claim, cleared Emp thus clearing both masons beyond much doubt. That would have left 4 town cleared moving in to day 3, and would have blown the game wide open.

Pity I died before that came to fulfillment for reasons beyond what the actual game mechanics should have caused. Emp's forgetting of his own role and us having furc really shot town's chances.

It was fun, though. Sorry I rubbed you the wrong way at first, Neko, I'm glad things worked out. With the exceptions I noted, I enjoyed playing with all of you.

The modding was great, Nexus. Thanks a lot!