A Storm of Swords - Lay your swords down!

[GreyICE]

Yeah, shadow, what the hell are you doing? That's clearly the wrong idea.

Raise: GreyICE

< - actual good idea

Campaign promise: I promise to use the governor powers for good. And by good I mean never goddamn use them, even on myself, because I hate governor powers.

[GreyICE]

ROFL @ DrippingGoofball

Go ahead honey. I want the governor powers out of play, and I'm one of the few I trust to put them there.

[GreyICE]

Also, wagons on those that raise themselves are most welcome.

This one is because a second Percy vote is scummy, and a second self-raise scummier still.

VOTE: LMP

Vote: DrippingGoofball

Okay, unless we have masons out there, most townies know one person with their alignment. Scum know multiple people with their alignment. They can nominate a 'pro-town' scum and wagon them up to governor.

EXPLAIN THIS VERY INSTANT WHY IT IS ANTI-TOWN TO NOMINATE YOURSELF. DO IT.

Now I am serious:

If you raise me governor today I will not use the power.

A non-confirmed town governor is too dangerous to be allowed to use their powers day 1, and I am not going to do it. Even if you guys are going to retard lynch an obvtown, I might yell at you - but I won't use the powers.

[GreyICE]

Okay, unless we have masons out there, most townies know one person with their alignment. Scum know multiple people with their alignment. They can nominate a 'pro-town' scum and wagon them up to governor.

EXPLAIN THIS VERY INSTANT WHY IT IS ANTI-TOWN TO NOMINATE YOURSELF. DO IT.

It's schtoopid. Schtoopidity is anti-town.

EXPLANATION INSUFFICIENT.

VOTE REMAINS.

THIS IS NOT RVS. SCUM WILL SEEK TO RAISE OTHER SCUM.

[GreyICE]

THIS IS NOT RVS. SCUM WILL SEEK TO RAISE OTHER SCUM.

Don't you *want* scum to raise other scum?

Noooooottt really, no. Don't have this amazing desire to find out what scum can do with a governor power. Don't have an amazing desire to find out if there's any powers that scum have brought online with this "Hand of the King" mechanic. Don't have any desire to find out that they have some sort of godfather powers or turn cops naive, or can get some cool thing if they're hand.

I will claim this: I have absolutely no role powers that are turned on by being hand, I get nothing out of it besides what is stated in this thread, and I will use the Governor power for only the reason of preventing the lynch of

confirmed

town (and I don't mean their posts have been kinda townish), and absolutely not at all on day 1, period.

I have no desire for a midgame governor surprise because someone is trigger happy. And I don't want it to go to Twilight Sparkle, because frankly Sotty7 is dangerous enough as scum, nevermind throwing in two other excellent players, and I'm going to treat that hydra like a giant timebomb until it's confirmed town or confirmed dead.

It's a serious candidacy - I'm voting for myself, because I trust myself here.

[GreyICE]

Also Goofball vote is serious. I'm getting the feeling Goofball came swinging out day 1 with a gameplan and the self voting threw a spanner in the works. Look at the first post in the thread.

Goofball is flailing coming up for explanations on why it's anti-town. I want to see her thoughts and her thoughts alone here.

@MoI

- at the moment, 'few' is composed solely of me. If at some point, say, our esteemed moderator dropped into the thread and said "Hey, Chesskid3 is an innocent child, and is confirmed town" I'd STILL not want him with the powers. I don't want "LOL governor obvscum because I like their avatar" in this thread or anything resembling that. Seeing the players on the list, there are quite a few I'd trust with the powers if they were confirmed town - Locke Lamora, for instance. As I get a better feel for people, I MIGHT support another player if he feels very town to me and it feels like an actual consensus wagon, not a scum-pushing-scum wagon. But I'd prefer me.

[GreyICE]

Also Goofball vote is serious. I'm getting the feeling Goofball came swinging out day 1 with a gameplan and the self voting threw a spanner in the works.

Hahahahaha

The self-voting is a spinner for what plan? You're ridiculous.

OH nooooes! The townies are self-voting!!!! What are we gonna do? We can't put away our game-breaking townie-killing gameplan, we MUST FOIL THIS MADNESS!!!

Yeah.

I dunno, it was serious enough you threatened to vig people. Everyone tell me if this looks like a joke post:

Hi,

I will vig anyone that raises themselves beyond this post.

So, you tell me. What was so serious that you attempted to shortcut even any DISCUSSION of self-voting? Why are you playing this off like some huge joke? Why are you threatened and defensive?

[GreyICE]

I am playing the actual game. I am trying to help the town win by keeping the powers out of the hands of players I don't trust. At the moment that's, well... everyone.

[GreyICE]

*snip wall of text*

I'm fine with being paranoid if it means that no one gets us from left field. I've stated before, I'll state it again - I don't like the governor power in play in the first place, and I don't trust whoever gets it.

As for your datamining, it's obviously worthless. One player voted themselves instead of another, and it would be 40% scum voted self, 33% voted town. A swing of one person would reverse your so-called results. That's below the noise level, and no useful data can be gleaned except that scum are reasonably good at blending in with town -

when there's no useful ability to be gleaned.

That was true in CoK. Do I trust it's true here and now? No.

Honestly, I really want to kick you. A 25 person sample is nowhere near enough to get below noise on anything less than a 30-40% difference. I'm glad you brought it up now, because there's a chance you could derail a scum wagon with an argument that fucking poor. If you have any more terrible statistics that are below noise level, please don't share them with us.

[GreyICE]

I am playing the actual game. I am trying to help the town win by keeping the powers out of the hands of players I don't trust. At the moment that's, well... everyone.

Wrong. You are not keeping anything from happening by raising yourself. If we wanted to raise somebody else, we could do so whether you were raising yourself, someone else, or no one. Your job in this game is to convince other people that certain players are town or scum, and a raise of yourself because "you trust yourself and nobody else" doesn't help anyone. Let me put it this way: Do you lynch vote exclusively to see the person you vote for lynched?
If no, then you shouldn't raise vote exclusively to see the person you raise vote for raised.
If yes, you've got serious problems.

I'm town. That's fine.

I'll help you find scum. You'll note I'm voting for DrippingGoofball. Follow my vote. It helps you find scum.

[GreyICE]

As for your datamining, it's obviously worthless. One player voted themselves instead of another, and it would be 40% scum voted self, 33% voted town. A swing of one person would reverse your so-called results. That's below the noise level, and no useful data can be gleaned except that scum are reasonably good at blending in with town - when there's no useful ability to be gleaned. That was true in CoK. Do I trust it's true here and now? No.

Dismissing that any possible information can be gleaned from information in a similar past game is short-sighted.

Honestly, I really want to kick you. A 25 person sample is nowhere near enough to get below noise on anything less than a 30-40% difference. I'm glad you brought it up now, because there's a chance you could derail a scum wagon with an argument that fucking poor. If you have any more terrible statistics that are below noise level, please don't share them with us.

Did you miss the part where I said the real important data would be mined at a deeper level? Ok thanks. And the little strawman you throw out here about ‘derailing a scum wagon’ is noted. You are pre-supposing how the information would be used when there is no evidence that it would be used in that manner. Especially since, as I said in that post, the likely relevant trends from Clash have been rendered useless the discussion already.

I notice you didn't address my response to your statement that your all-caps statement about scum seeking to raise Partners. Do you really think they would go out of the way to immedaitely draw links to each other?

Oh shut up with the self-justifications, MoI. That garbage data was mislynch fodder waiting to happen. I have no problem learning things from past games, I have problems learning

things that are wrong.

You drew a conclusion that was not justified by the data. That's wrong. I'm not insisting on three sigma, but I'd like at least

ONE SIGMA

.

This is fucking classic IIoA. Mislynch after mislynch out of your garbage data? No. If it's not significant, keep it out of the thread. If it becomes significant, bring it up. Don't fucking give me shit statistics and expect me to smile and eat them as if you're adding something.

So far you've added nothing but wall post after wall post, IIoA, and no fucking analysis whatsoever. I am telling you the truth, I am town, you are not helping the town. As for scum establishing links between themselves, yes, sure. Look at the thread - most people are recommending that we don't select for a week. Lots of time to establish your town cred, throw your town cred behind other scum's town cred, start a wagon, whatever.

It's simple, make me Hand.

Who wants their majority lynch aborted for terrible reasons? Who thinks that we're going to learn more about who is town and who is scum in a week? Or are we more likely for the scum to find a way to get a "townie enough" scum in place?

Want me to put the arguments in your terms, MoI?

Clash of Kings - they voted scum into the doublevoter, didn't they? How long did they take to decide that? Did they come to some compromise candidate everyone liked? What are the odds that that selection was scum influenced? It didn't hurt the town... once. Will it hurt the town this time? I don't like arguing from a sample size of one. What's the odds scum will end up with the power? What are the odds scum can push the governor power onto someone they think might misuse it?

I'm in the spotlight. You think this is a scum gambit? It's not. I'm running this out there. I'll take the governor power, not use it because "I like somebody" or "Goddamn it, I'm smarter than the town and I know who scum is" or "for t3h lulz." You want to lynch me, you think you have good reasons? Lynch me. Appointing me to this doesn't confirm me town, and I'm not arrogant enough to say it does. What I won't do to you? I'm not governing someone who is not confirmable/confirmed town,

period.

I'll make my arguments in the forum, in the thread, like everyone else, and if you disagree with me, I'll accept it.

P.S. My vote is still on DGB.

[GreyICE]

Oh and Sparkle (gah, I want to call you Mina, you so read Mina right now) - in case it's not clear. I believe the 1-shot governor is more beneficial for the scum if you compare 1-shot Governor Vanilla Townie versus 1-shot Governor Mafia Goon. I can find plenty of ways of using it that are terribly non-beneficial to the town - bolster a fake cop claim, earn townie points for pardoning a mislynch, screw with our heads in LyLo, hell... LyLo. If the governor is on the scum in 3 man LyLo

the town loses

. Automatically.

It has to go on town who will not abuse it or misuse it, because the ideal use, in all likelihood, is to

never use it.

P.S. Seriously, what do you want me to call you?

[GreyICE]

Okay! It doesn't matter? Then I can do it.

I hereby dub you Sparky.

Sparky, Kast I don't care how paranoid I'm being. I don't want it misused. I don't want to grit my teeth because someone pardoned our lynch. I don't want to lynch an idiotic townie who pardoned scum. I don't want to be stuck in LyLo unable to lynch scum. I don't want it doing anything bad for us, at any point, ever. I don't want to find out there's some sort of Roleblocker or Assassin power that becomes active when the scum "control the armies of the king." I don't want to find out it enables daytalk. I don't want to find out they get anything special at all, because I want it on town and the power out of play. Hell, I'll promise to pardon someone ridiculous day 1 - if that's what it takes, I'll pardon Eddard Stark right now first day, soon as I get it. Or I'll pardon a random townie five minutes before we drop the hammer day 1. If people want that out of me, I'll promise it.

I may be paranoid, in fact I AM paranoid. But it is safer that way

PEDIT: For Kast, why I'm paranoid.

What I fear: 3 man LyLo

2 Town
1 Scum Governor

who can self-pardon

I accept that by taking this role, I will not be alive in LyLo.

Not if I'm cop cleared (Godfather). Not if I counterclaimed and the original claim flips scum (scum plot, I'm scum and I claim, scum counterclaims, we lynch counterclaim, oops self-pardoning governor got to LyLo). Not if there's one scum alive and I'm roleblocked and the kill goes through (Some sort of Mafia Ninja that bypasses Roleblocks).

Seriously, Kast, anyone, what would it take to let you leave the self-pardoning governor alive in LyLo?

[GreyICE]

Oh. I know hasdgfs' flavor role. He's Lannister, although the role will be a royal pain.

[GreyICE]

I think GreyICE is coked up.

Yep, best idea is to not get your scumbuddies too involved, that way your lynch doesn't drag anyone else down. Sucks for you, of course, but it's smart play. Good signaling, we might be able to read it, but we have no idea who it's going to.

@Hasd:
1) Can I make a series of statements and have you *nod* or *shake* in response to each?
2) Can you direct actions at people to make them give you a series of statements when you want to input an opinion? (*blink three times at GreyICE*, for example)
3) Can I give you a series of actions that correspond to what you want to do so we can develop a dictionary, or does your post restriction prevent you circumventing your post restriction that way?
4) Assuming I can establish said dictionary, would you be willing to waste some time with me to do so?

PEDIT: Shadow, power does what it says on the tin. The governor can stop

any lynch

unless the answer to the below is different than I expect (as the third in the series, with significant thought gone into it, I'd imagine the roles do exactly what they say they do).

@Mod: Does the power function exactly as written?

[GreyICE]

Okay, I'm going to run out these actions. hasdgfs, roll around on the ground to signal that I'm getting close to the borders of your post restriction (mod can't blame you for something you told me not to do).

Response to arguments/posts, simple

= I agree with this
= Close, but some problems
= This point doesn't seem right
= Go further
= Premise is good, conclusion is hasty
= Argument went off course.
= The quote is scummy

Directing our attention

I'll use Sparky as the generic person

*Holds Sparky's feet over the fire* - you want Sparky to explain this point
*Glare at Sparky* - you think Sparky is acting stupid/wrongheaded, but not scummy.
*Menace Sparky* - FOS/You want explanation for scummy behavior/WTFscum
*Lift Sparky up* - you want the town to vote on the basis of this.

*Juggle Sparky* - wants a list of statements to agree/disagree with from someone about Sparky
*Throw Sparky at GreyICE* - wants GreyICE to provide a list of statements about Sparky to agree disagree with
*Push Sparky towards GreyICE* - wants GreyICE to provide his opinion on Sparky
*Digs Sparky out of a hole* - thinks Sparky has been lurking
*Knocks on Sparky* - thinks Sparky's posts are hollow (i.e. Sparky isn't providing content)
*Bites Sparky's heels* - wants Sparky to do more

Reads

*Hugs Sparky* - town
*Extend hand towards sparky* - leaning town
*Blink at sparky* - neutral
*Washes sparky* - leaning scum
*Spits at sparky* - scum

[GreyICE]

Yep, best idea is to not get your scumbuddies too involved, that way your lynch doesn't drag anyone else down. Sucks for you, of course, but it's smart play. Good signaling, we might be able to read it, but we have no idea who it's going to.

We're going to NK you tonight just to shut you up. We'll give the cop another night if we have to.

Cool beans. I'm sure this will be great WIFOM when you do kill me. You said it in thread so the scum killed me to implicate you. Absolutely grade A vintage.

[GreyICE]

Oh and I see the mod clarification. Okay, that ability scares me much, much less now, but I still want it out of scum hands because it's a live grenade on scum at LyLo. I'm still the best choice to appoint Hand.

And DGB is going to claim joke, it's all WIFOM at this point. If it's a gambit though, it fucking sucks. "I claimed scum, I wonder how many scum I got to vote for me on my wagon? I bet only scum want to lynch someone who claims scum." I don't see how this is fucking helping the town at this point, I think she's trying to wriggle out of it by being sarcastic and joking to convince us "it's all a joke."

Have I ever mentioned what I do with WIFOM?

[GreyICE]

Cool beans. I'm sure this will be great WIFOM when you do kill me. You said it in thread so the scum killed me to implicate you. Absolutely grade A vintage.

Let them.

OH wait

Do you

know

I'm town???

Did you just slip up?

Well either I slipped up, or you're illiterate as well as being scum.

I'll lean towards the latter myself. But fuck it, why not hard claim total waste of a spot after soft claiming scum?

[GreyICE]

He said "when you do kill me." He thinks you're scum, will kill him tonight, then tomorrow say, 'scum killed me to implicate me based off of this post!'.

I don't personally agree with that line of thinking, but it's certainly not a scumslip.

GreyICE:

Have you played with any of us before? You seem to know all three of us, but at least personally, your name isn't ringing any bells.

-hito

I'm in Brotherhood of the Wolf with Mina, and I like her from that game (ongoing game, yadda yadda). You, I don't know. Sotty hasn't posted yet. So I'm just treating your hydra like it was Mina in a thread without rabid wolverines. I also love the nickname Sparky, and you're now stuck with it, Sparky

As for an 'argument' I wouldn't call what I posted that, but I'm distinctly disgusted with the wine that was given to me in that post. I'll say it before, I'll say it again. I'm a simple man - you put those two goblets of wine in front of me, I shove one down your throat and one up your ass. Problem solved.

[GreyICE]

Yeah, Benmage is scum.

Blatant rolefishing.

[GreyICE]

GreyICE, zoraster initiated the calls for people to not self-vote, but I believe you've only directed complaints at DGB. Why is this?

Asking people not to selfvote is not scummy. Attempting to threaten people into not self voting is scummy, because it shuts off discussion. DGB has done nothing to foster discussion, and attempted to call it off. Everything since then has apparently been an attempt to play off having a 'sarcastic' meta. Lets ask a simple question, using Scumage's example of apparent "Village Idiots:" would Chesskid be given a pass for similar behavior? Oh, no? Why are we giving her a pass? She's scum, got called on it, and is trying to get her way out of it on this meta bullshit.

I'm curious though, if you really think it's such an evil/bad/anti-town power, then why the hell are you asking to be made Governor instead of forming a coalition to force a tie and eliminate it?

Yeaaaahhhh. So lets see, I need a majority to agree to give me the power to keep it out of the hands of anyone who will misuse it, but any single townie could put it into someone's hands with one vote/unvote at the end of the day?

Yeah, fuck that noise. We wouldn't need a majority, we'd need a total consensus.

[GreyICE]

I'm gonna stop wondering if you're scum and start wondering if you're off your medication. It's not that I can't find any pro-town motive for this, it's that I can't find any

sane

motive for this.

[GreyICE]

Really??? Thats how this game works??? Thanks. This is why we do them today. Tomorrow...etc...Not D5..Not Lylo. We're fucked if they're alive then. Which again....They will be, because no scum kills VI's unless they're badass scum...Like me.

So is claiming scum like the new flavor of the week? Look, seriously, shut the computer, call your doctor, get the Lithium.

[GreyICE]

Wow. If that was your kitten I ran over this morning, I'm sorry man, didn't mean it. And I have no idea how that urine ended up in your breakfast cereal.

I'm just going to have to add a category to my reads "Fucking mental." X is town, Y is scum, Benmage is fucking mental...

[GreyICE]

Um what? Please stop using the Wiki as your Bible. It just makes you look foolish.

Furthermore … why is Benmage’s ‘fishing’ scummy but Shadow’s repeated fishing of Cow not even worth a peep from you. Is it because you are inflicted with UK syndrome and assume everyone who questions you is scum?

Nah, I don't give a damn about Shadow, because he was the same sort of naively scummy the last game I was in with him, and he's smarter than he comes off, and he reads town. Benmage read scum, but I am honestly not joking about the meds, I have yet to come up with a sane line of reasoning for his further posts in the thread.

The newbie game we mentioned had a person who 'gave up on finding scum' day 1, and he was the scum who quickhammered me. It's amazing how hard it is to 'find scum' when you have no real motivation, unlimited information, no idea of the personalities involved, and not a lot of time in your quickthread to make plots. Benmage's entire post read fucking scum to me, so w/e, other people have eyes if I call it out they can read the same shit.

P.S. Fine, since it's out there, I totally called the rolename first, and didn't even fish it

P.P.S. With no self governor, I would be behind raising sir cow as the Hand. None of the other games had massive flavor switches (see MoI, I did read them) and if he's faking THIS post restriction, well, we can find out.

Raise: hasdgfas

[GreyICE]

Holy shit, it posts content! And decent content.

Unvote

One of these players is scum:
Hasdgfas, zoraster, Twilight Sparkle, Mikujin

Spoiler: If you're gonna give me that buffet, it's definitely Zoraster by about a dozen miles.

[GreyICE]

Oh hey, found the game:

http://www.mafiascum.net/archive/viewto ... start=2175

Found the role:

1 Mafia Mostly Mute Godfather (If he posts using only two words in each post in a day (besides votes), he has investigation immunity the following night. Inspired by a game of Mostly Mute Monk Mafia we played at Thespival, in which the two most innocent-appearing players ended up being scum.)

Once, he faked a crippling restriction where he claimed to gain powers by following it. He was lying scum, if memory serves.

Want another random wiki term, as MoI the wallbanger likes to call it? I'm feeling a strong case of LAL coming on.

Vote:DrippingGoofball

No reason to push this case that hard, and the lie doesn't sit well. Yeah, removing that vote was a mistake. The 'teehee, memory didn't serve correctly' or 'omg it was like three years ago' isn't going to fly when you just tried to get someone lynched by lying. I found the game in like 5 minutes, I can't believe that she didn't even bother to look it up.

[GreyICE]

"Everyone is someone I don't trust" is a scum mindset. Starting with the idea that everyone is scum is a scum mindset because it is optomized to a) find mislynches and b) identify town players for NKs.

[GreyICE]

Okay Magua, lets debate setup.

Last setup had namecops, and 2 mafia godfathers who namecopped to their fake claim. For this to be plausible, hascow would have to namecop to that particular fake claim, seen that he was the godfather with ONE PARTICULAR character, and faked a post restriction based on that ONE CHARACTER. So if he's scum, he's either hella lucky, or just dumb and will get lynched day 2/3 easy. So he's a FUCKING DUMB day 1 lynch.

DGB is scummy for how she's prosecuting the case, because I think she's smarter than this. It's an easy case to make, but it's full retard for the town to even consider it. "Ooh, look, I'm proactively scumhunting!" The fact that she didn't even bother to look up the game sticks in my craw - that's fucking lazy, which is more a characteristic of scum trying to throw shit around than town trying to scumhunt.

Also, LAL. It can go wrong, but I'm fucking feeling it.

[GreyICE]

1) don't do town lists too often anymore unless replacing in or good reason. I read towns posts not lynch em. I can do a scummy list if anyone cares, but the tldr is dgb is top. Plus I answered shadow question in earlier post.

2) Dun know dun care. She is reading scum to me. And your WIFOM theory is just bad.

[GreyICE]

1) don't do town lists too often anymore unless replacing in or good reason. I read towns posts not lynch em. I can do a scummy list if anyone cares, but the tldr is dgb is top. Plus I answered shadow question in earlier post.

2) Dun know dun care. She is reading scum to me. And your WIFOM theory is just bad.

You are not concerned with the part of mafia that is "trying to convince other people that you're right"? If your DGB case has merit, do you not expect that hasfgdas would be the first to recognize it?

Unrelated to the DGB/GreyICE/hasfgdas brouhaha, I don't like Diddin's #132 . It's mostly attack without adding anything of value, but then caps it off by saying DGB is the largest town read, which makes my head hurt. I read this as "attack chesskid, attack GreyICE, buddy DGB".

UNVOTE: Percy
VOTE: diddin

Sure, I expect he'll have input into what I said. After he, y'know, reads the thread and comments on it. He hasn't POSTED since then.

My case is convincing, and this is pretty sad. Magua, question time (since that's the new black): If hascow shows up and votes for her in the next post, would you vote for her based on what you've read?

[GreyICE]

Can Wallbanger give me one good reason that we'd lynch hascow today? Just one? His posts are lots of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

[GreyICE]

Have to admit your first few posts were totally worthless and frustrating to decipher, so now I'm mostly skimming the walls. It'll save my eyes and my time. Care to summarize anything important I missed? I looked back but I didn't see anything that jumped out, question-wise.

Also, I'm laughing at the idea that I 'rely on rhetoric' because I try to make my posts readable

[GreyICE]

First, Wallbanger, reading your posts is a hardship because they're terribly, terribly written. I'm not really going to be doing it if this continues in the thread, and I don't really care what you think of that. I do not think that long, pointlessly rambling posts full of ridiculous questions, half-mumbled answers, and asinine theories is worth my time. And they're definitely no sort of town tell. Now, for your questions.

What about DGB posting content reversed your previous views on him as scummy?

Posting content and doing analysis is pro-town, not doing that is not pro-town. Even if scum is faking analysis and reads, it gives us ways and information to find their scumbuddies. Also, it's harder to keep up a pro-town facade when you have to have reasons for voting and vote for people and have scum reads and town reads and all that.

Or is it that she didn’t directly look it up but went off memory that is scummy?

It's because she used something that was factually untrue to cast suspicion on someone. That's fucking bullshit, and it doesn't fly. Now here's a question for you: Why not let her defend herself? You earning white knight points somewhere? It's almost too bad that the answers are going to be buried inside a 4,000 word wall of long quotes interspersed with insipid one liners and pointless rambling so I really won't ever read them.

How again is DGB pushing hard for Cow’s lynch when she is voting for LMP again?

RTFT. Yeah, these were a total waste of my time. Thanks. Lets not do that again.

[GreyICE]

Oh yeah, and DGB is a 'her.' I figured this out because I'm reading the thread, not abusing multitab and the quote button.

[GreyICE]

There's no style there, Sparky! If five people were posting like that I'd be tearing out my hair trying to read the thread and probably be replacing out.

He can't have the common courtesy to summarize his thoughts in a way that is at least readable, I'm not gonna have the courtesy to read him. He's wingeing at me that I'm not responding to some of the most ridiculous questions I've ever seen? I mean what do those questions tell us? Nothing. They're an enormous waste of time that spams up the thread with answers that tell us nothing. He's just asking questions for the sake of asking questions.

There's no discussion, because I'm done reading the walls. He earned his nickname fair and square.

[GreyICE]

You want a potential vig to kill someone you believe to be town over someone you believe to be scum?

FoS

He's

that

annoying.

Obvscum being obvious.

[GreyICE]

Did go into it Nexus, but I'll do it again. She's got someone who is either obvtown or just walking dead in her scumlist, and attacked them, and I explained why it was nonsense. In addition, her attack was factually inaccurate, and she didn't even bother to check it.

Actually the entire list is bogus. Bunny doesn't read scum, Locke is on the list because he said she wasn't doing a town thing she normally does that she STARTED DOING AFTER THAT POST, she's got someone on V/LA on that list. The only person who even reads more than a little scum in the "scum" section is LMP, and she's pushed that wagon so hard she's managed to attract a whole, um... herself.

Everyone seems to be saying her play is inscrutable. That play? I can read that play, and

that's horrible.

P.S. The concept that we raise someone who isn't asking for it remains a scum concept. If we must do it, we raise hascow, because he's still either obvtown or dead scum walking.

PEDIT: Nexus, I said I would only use it on confirmed/confirmable townies, and if that wasn't enough for people, I'd throw it away day 1. If you think I'm lying, please provide some justification. And yes. I would not use a governor role on someone who I had a town read on and was being lynched. Lets say the person being lynched is scum. So what happens? Well, town has to settle for second best, who could very easily be town. Then the next day, they probably lynch the same person anyway. So then the day after that they lynch the governor, and look, you've wasted two lynches on townies because a goddamn governor was arrogant enough to think that their 'mystical gut read' was better than the town's votes. If the governor would use the ability on anything other than confirmed town or a quickhammer situation in LyLo they're a hazard to us all.

[GreyICE]

I would of course use it on confirmed/confirmable townies. That's the only reason I would, short we're in like 7 man LyLo, and I see someone vote followed by two posts that are just:

"WELL OKAY"
"VOTE: XXXXX"

If you don't believe I'd throw it away day 1, here's a simple solution: give it to me, make me promise to use it, and if I don't, lynch me day 2.

[GreyICE]

Or hell, lynch me day 1 if I don't. Give it to me, I'll pardon someone like HasCow or Twilight Sparkle who we're not going to lynch today anyway, and we can get on with our lives.

[GreyICE]

Yep, because town have to push for good things to happen for town. It's scum who have the benefits of having someone looking out for them.

[GreyICE]

Why? Governor is a terrible power most often used to annoy everyone in the thread and sometimes used by scum to cause mislynches.

[GreyICE]

Feysel, if an obvtown player is being lynched... no, seriously.

If a player is obvtown, they're probably not being lynched. If a majority of the players think they're the lynch, why the hell would they be obvtown?

[GreyICE]

Bwuh, I have been prodded. Apologies, I apparently didn't have this bookmarked and totally forgot about it over the work week. Guess I've got some catching up to do when I get home from work.

Yeah. Or you were posting in it on Thursday, when it opened. Which was during the work week. Today is Saturday. So you forgot about it for... Friday.

Is someone being overly apologetic to the town to divert suspicion? Yes. Yes they are. Not posting in a game for a day is hardly a scum tell. Being guilty about it and posting this garbage apology when the game opened Thursday? Is.

Unvote

Vote: Mikujin

[GreyICE]

unraise
unvote

Benmage has insisted he's town several times, and I care little for that. DGB keeps making lists, I abhor them (especially since they seem largely arbitrary). Grey is over-enthusiastic. Shadow seems new and silly (and is another one of those guys dropping "Aww shucks I'm not scum!" lines). Most others are either quiet or contemplative. I think I'm largely caught up now.

Also, to the town at large: do we agree that popping governor immediately on a target no one wants lynched is the way to go?

If no one wants the target lynched then it begs asking: why is said person being lynched in order for a governor to need to save them?

Ultimately, whoever gets the governor power is going to rely on gut (barring role-specific information).

If you're not voting, you're not caught up.

I'm choosing to withhold it until such time as I'm certain of my convictions. While it's by no means dangerous for me to use it at this point, I've no grounded suspicion of any one person at this time.

Likewise, I've not raised a new person for much the same reason; no one stands out and above as an example to the rest of us.

Uh, guys, am I the only person who sees anything fucking wrong here?

[GreyICE]

Pray tell, what's wrong with playing rather reserved? What's contradictory in pointing out a few things I've a distaste for and not following it up with a vote? I'm in no rush to make knee-jerk decisions based on isolated incidents that ping my gut. And whilest you've pointed out, Locke, that there's 14 pages worth of reading one can do, consider we've still more than a week to further poke and probe at the minds of others. Rushing in hastily leads to rash decisions and tunnel-vision.

You're not telling me in 14 pages there are no scum reads. I don't want town reads, town reads are easy for the scum to fake. You're over apologetic, you're not commenting on anyone's behavior, you're not scumhunting. And I think it's because you're scum and just taking the easy way out and hoping we let you slide because there's other shiny toys to play with.

Garbage. Garbage, garbage, garbage. I am not interested, I want to know who you would lynch and way. Not this 'standing back and not taking responsibility for our lynch.' Tell me your reads, and we'll see what we want to do with them.

[GreyICE]

Zdenek - I hold that seeing who is willing to campaign for the Hand is far more helpful to the town than seeing who we can push the hand onto. Look at what is happening right now. What reads do we have from Sparky as a result of this? Anything? Anything at all? No. Sparky hasn't said how they'll use the hand. Sparky hasn't said how they view the hand. We're just going to hand it to someone on that basis?

I think that is horribly, horribly anti-town. I've been saying that from the beginning. I want to see any candidate for hand outside of maybe hascow (it would amuse me to make Payne the hand, and also keep him in the spotlight) tell us that they want the position, and tell us what they'll do with the position.

I've seen many people say that they don't like what I'd do with the hand power. Well and good. Tell us what YOU would do with it and why we should give it to you, and I'll consider it. I consider the entire idea of giving the hand to some random person stuff and nonsense. Come out and tell me why you should get it, and then I'd consider it. Period. DGB is scummy to suggest otherwise, always has been, always will be. "Durr, lets give it to someone who hasn't even shown they want it, that's pro-town..." Yeah, no.

[GreyICE]

There aren't any reads that I'd say are definite indications of scum; there are people I am wary of and distrust (DBG for example), and there are people I just plain don't like (you for example). Simply because my play differs from what you want or expect is hardly grounds for calling it garbage. If you think you're going to bully me into doing something (similar to DBG's demand of hascow) you're just plain wrong.

I'm not going to bully anyone. I'm going to lynch you. There is such a very big difference. Who told you in the QT that you shouldn't give out reads because you're really bad at faking them and are going to give away the rest of your scumteam?

[GreyICE]

GreyICE, if the Hand of the King is so anti-town, then why do you expect that someone who is pro-town would campaign to get it? Do you think that it is possible for someone to campaign for the Hand on grounds that are different from yours and still be pro-town?

Of course. It is very, very easy for town to disagree, especially on theory points like this. I've seen more scum pardoned by townies before though, and it does NOT make me happy.

If someone else wants to campaign, that's great, and I'll vote for them or not based on what they say. But it's ridiculous to hand the power to someone who doesn't tell us what they'll do with it and why they should have it.

[GreyICE]

Unraise

Raise: Twilight Sparkle

You know what my personal opinion is on it.

[GreyICE]

A thought about raising. The biggest time it would come in handy is in lylo to keep a quicklynch from occurring. But scum is unlikely to let the governor get that far. We definitely don't want it in scum's hands, but do we do ourselves a disservice by giving it to the towniest person who contributes a lot and may also be a good town power role? Maybe we're best served by giving it to a VI, hope for a scum kill or a vigilante kill right away.

Just a thought. If we KNEW we had a vigilante, this would be clearer: give it to vig bait and let him get shot.

Oh yeah, I claim vigilante right now! Give it to someone really scummy! I'll shoot him tonight. It'll be awesome!

Unvote

Vote:Zoraster

Or we could, y'know, give it to our lynch candidate and not ROLEFISH FOR A FUCKING VIGILANTE KTHXBAI OBVSCUM.

[GreyICE]

Okay, this behavior is totally fucking antitown. Look at the options DGB wants to hand to a town-hascow:

1) Break a real post restriction deliberately, incite modkill. Day ends, we lose our lynch
2) Hascow doesn't break the restriction, DGB insists we lynch him. He flips town, day ends.

@DGB

- are you sure enough that Hascow is scum that you would be willing to be lynched tomorrow if he flips town?

P.S. I've had my vote three serious places so far. I'm really content with all three of them. My scumreads just get scummier.
Call me the village idiot, Benmage, but I think I'm getting results, while you rant and moan about policy lynching the world.

[GreyICE]

@DGB

- are you sure enough that Hascow is scum that you would be willing to be lynched tomorrow if he flips town?

YES.

Ugh, you're smart enough as scum that you could easily play me here, but I just don't see it. Your case is full-retard, but I'm going to flip the read to prob-town with a side of IGMEOY. I still refuse the day one lynch on the concept that I fingered his role 0.5 seconds after his first post, and he has to have pulled Mafia Godfather with the fake claim of Payne in order to get past our namecops. And no, he will not wiggle out of him namecopping to something different.

In other news, loving MoI. He FOSes one of my scum suspects and then whines about me flopping my vote around. Way to be consistent, man. Sorry there's more than one scum in the game. At least the post was readable! Fortunately you realized this and have started to post statements and reads. So I'll tentatively go back to reading these much more coherent, much better formatted posts with actual useful content. I give credit when credit is due.

[GreyICE]

Your case is full-retard,

Scuse me?????

Your. Case. Is. Full. Retard.

It is not a good case, it is not a good candidate for a lynch day 1, we should not be discussing it. It doesn't matter if he's town or scum, he's a good target for our namecops, one of the scum teams can always assume "Post Restriction = Power Role" and send him in as a night-kill target, anything could happen.

I'd really love if you'd stop tunneling and find someone else. Go ahead and go after me for this, at least it'll give us some more reads on you. You're tunneling someone in a way that could end this day in modkill. Sorry if I find that your behavior INSANE.

[GreyICE]

Your case is full-retard,

Scuse me?????

Your. Case. Is. Full. Retard.

I'm sorry, but I think you're getting carried away with the insulting people.

I'm sorry, was the word case hard to read? Did you miss the reasons in the paragraphs you cut? Tell me why anyone should push this day one.

[GreyICE]

I'm sorry, but I think you're getting carried away with the insulting people.

I'm sorry, but did you miss the word case? Because yours? It's horrible. It's terrible. It's ridiculous. It's a poor idea. I can find all sorts of words to describe it. Now, nice whine about the insult, but did you miss the entire rest of the post?

It is not a good case, it is not a good candidate for a lynch day 1, we should not be discussing it. It doesn't matter if he's town or scum, he's a good target for our namecops, one of the scum teams can always assume "Post Restriction = Power Role" and send him in as a night-kill target, anything could happen.

I'd really love if you'd stop tunneling and find someone else. Go ahead and go after me for this, at least it'll give us some more reads on you. You're tunneling someone in a way that could end this day in modkill. Sorry if I find that your behavior INSANE.

Now, tell me why he's the day 1 lynch again.

[GreyICE]

Shadow is firmly on my scum detector. I don't see him trying to find scum at all, while trying to slip under the radar. Because nothing has changed from my initial scum reads, that makes LL, Kast and Shadow my scum reads. I'd love to see a wagon on any one of them.

Yep, I'm sure you would.

[GreyICE]

I just find this stupid.
We should not lynch a person we think is scum with a fake PR because a namecop should investigate that said person, come out the next day and out himself and announce his results, or we should just like the scum shot the person with a post restriction because we all know scum always get rid of the people we have doubt with x-x.

I don't get this at all. Why would that sequence of events happen? The namecop can breadcrumb their results somewhere. We'll find the breadcrumb if they die. Come out on day 3/4 and give us a laundry list of results. Meanwhile we lose nothing by waiting except that we have to flip someone else.

I don't find the role that scummy, I don't get the focus on the PR, and I don't think that the people pushing this are acting in the town's best interest.

[GreyICE]

DGB, why should we be following you here?

You don't answer questions, you just run away and go tunnel the guy with the post restriction after making some fucking arbitrary lists.

[GreyICE]

DR....I'm willing to vote DGB.

Although pending a further look. I'm pretty confident Sparkle is scum... Why haven't they requested the governor? They gonna throw it away? Sotty and hito are bad players ?!?!?!??!?! Baloney.... I'd want to give it to them, because it should be a doom sentence.

Ooh, that's an angle I haven't thought of. Do tell us more!

[GreyICE]

DGB - at this point I tend to agree with you about Hascow faking the post restriction, but I do have my reservations. It sounds to me you have zero reservations so why aren't you voting for him?

So many people seem to defend him, or be fooled by it. I think this little problem that is hascow's fake restriction is more likely to be resolved at night.

THANK YOU.

GOD DGB WE'VE BEEN TELLING YOU THIS AND TELLING YOU THIS AND TELLING YOU THIS.

[GreyICE]

I know you have, but a lynch would be more efficient.

UNLESS HE'S ACTUALLY TOWN DEAR GOD THINK ABOUT IT FOR A SECOND YOU ARE SMART I KNOW THIS I HAVE READ YOUR GAMES YIYIYIYIYIYIYIYI

GO HUNT SOME SCUM. ZORASTER AND MIKUJIN ARE CALLING TO YOU DGB. DO YOU THINK THEY'RE BOTH TOWN? 'CAUSE I DON'T.

[GreyICE]

Okay, then I think we're on the same page with them. Coin flip on which and then we can stop this nonsense debate and start some goddamn pressure?

[GreyICE]

Zoraster, y u rolefish?

Well I'm not sure I'd call it rolefishing. Name fishing maybe, although even that's a stretch. In this case, it serves a purpose: gives me some way of evaluating the post restriction.

Dude, we can still read.

A thought about raising. The biggest time it would come in handy is in lylo to keep a quicklynch from occurring. But scum is unlikely to let the governor get that far. We definitely don't want it in scum's hands, but do we do ourselves a disservice by giving it to the towniest person who contributes a lot and may also be a good town power role? Maybe we're best served by giving it to a VI, hope for a scum kill or a vigilante kill right away.

Just a thought. If we KNEW we had a vigilante, this would be clearer: give it to vig bait and let him get shot.

You're directing town power onto a target I'm not even sure it should go onto, you've kicked out the

"KNEW"

when you KNOW we have members who are inexperienced enough that they very well might be the vig and very well might bite, and you did it in a way that doesn't even make sense - we can raise and lynch a person in the same day, so why not put it on our lynch then?

@MOI:

I don't know if DGB is town or not. I'm leaning towards not. I DO want to see what DGB does when she's forced out of this godawful tunnel. I think there's no excuse for her staying in it at this point. I'm letting her pick the target because handing potential scum WIFOM is so very, very sweet. Also, frankly, while benmage might actually be a decent player if he spent less time telling us how good a player he is, he has a bit of a point - given a choice, I'd rather lynch a scummy player who is terrible at scumhunting than a scummy player who is good at scumhunting.

When you accuse me of floating AFTER the town, you're just basically not following the thread at all. Who was the first vote on Zoraster? Not you. Who called out Mikujin? Well, several people. But if you think I'm floating from bandwagon to bandwagon, check your thread. I think there are people with which we have a MUCH better chance of hitting scum with than a cow lynch.

[GreyICE]

Here's mentioning a vigilante:
"While this cop guilty means we have to Lynch MoI today, DGB's early defense makes her pretty much vigbait.""

Here's rolefishing:
"Just a thought. If we KNEW we had a vigilante, this would be clearer: give it to vig bait and let him get shot."

[GreyICE]

One of these players is scum:
Hasdgfas, zoraster, Twilight Sparkle, Mikujin

Spoiler: If you're gonna give me that buffet, it's definitely Zoraster by about a dozen miles.

Page fucking 8. 14 pages ago.

[GreyICE]

Jesus christ man its like you're all figments of my imagination, and my imagination is ignoring me :/

Ugh. I really do need to pay attention to you more. Sorry Chess

[GreyICE]

If you're as confident that GreyICE is town as it seems you are, why are you still raising Twilight Sparkle?

Because you can have a town read on someone you don't trust to use the power, for one?

.......Snipped Wall nonsense
.......
.......
.......
.......
.......
.......
.......
.......

I like both diddin and

GreyICE

for lynching, but I think diddin is the superior lynch at this point. Zoraster and maybe MoI at a decent third. Maybe bunnylover.

Raise: Twilight Sparkle

UNVOTE:
VOTE: diddin

Unvote

Vote Xvart

Someone forgot who their town reads were supposed to be by the end of their own wallpost.

[GreyICE]

Nope. My first question was a rhetorical question or maybe better described as an example and not an opinion of mine. The question wasn't even asked to me, but I responded to the question with a question, like "Did you think about this possibility?" The point I was making is that people aren't automatically going to give the Governor ability to the person they find most likely to be town. Case in point: you. Apparently a lot of people think you are town but you aren't getting the Raise. Even if I thought you were obvtown I wouldn't want you raised because I don't trust you with that ability.

If you read back through my posts it should be pretty clear that I've never thought that GreyICE was town, and leaning the opposite.

I read your ISO. Nothing of the sort is clear. All you've done is ask questions and wander around in an attempt to find the nearest bandwagon to jump on. Information over analysis? That isn't a description, it's like your life motto.

You clearly stated that I was obvtown and then by the end of the post I was one of the people you wanted to lynch because there was a couple votes on me and you saw a decent chance of a wagon.

Everyone: Read xvart's ISO. Then lynch obvscum.

[GreyICE]

Everyone: Read xvart's ISO. Then lynch obvscum.

GreyICE, can you please show where xvart claims to have a townread on you? diddin's 252 is in reply to me and *my* townread on you.

Is it now?

Read his ISO Magua. Is he playing it close to the chest... or waiting and looking for an easy bandwagon?

You tell me. To me, it is clearly the latter.

PEDIT: Because I missed it. If MoI has something ridiculous hidden in the middle of one of his posts, I probably missed it too. But cool, draw attention to that as well. Nice WIFOM there, scum would never draw attention to something scummy they did, so you must be town.

Why don't you give us a few town reads and scum reads and tell us something useful? Oh wait. You had that chance, time and again. And you diddled around trying to figure out what wagon looked good. I think yours looks pretty good.

[GreyICE]

This is pretty self-centered I know.

But I'm sensing more suspicion in this game than I usually get on Day 1, like,

a lot more

.

I suppose I don't get that much suspicion in early game, probably because scum only very rarely lets me live beyond day 3, sometimes PR claims or other very aggressive players get priority over me for the NK. I'm a flash in the pan in most games. In King of Hearts (an exception to this) where the scum neglected to NK me fast enough, there was much regret afterward.

I think some of that suspicion is players legitimately not familiar with me; but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of it was manufactured by scum trying to make sure I don't become Governor. I have a pretty solid history with reading townies with accuracy.

OR MAYBE YOUR PLAY HAS BEEN TOTAL AND COMPLETE

SHIT

AND YOUR RECORD OF CATCHING SCUM IS CUTE AND ALL, BUT YOU AIN'T DOING MUCH OF IT HERE.

I KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AGGRESSIVE PLAY AND SHIT PLAY, AND THIS IS THE LATTER.

[GreyICE]

OR MAYBE YOUR PLAY HAS BEEN TOTAL AND COMPLETE

SHIT

AND YOUR RECORD OF CATCHING SCUM IS CUTE AND ALL, BUT YOU AIN'T DOING MUCH OF IT HERE.

I KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AGGRESSIVE PLAY AND SHIT PLAY, AND THIS IS THE LATTER.

Really now ... how do you know he isn't doing a good job of catching scum?

Well first of all, I know

she

is female because I've been reading her posts.

Second, I've been READING THE POSTS:
This was the commentary on Zoraster and Mikujin:

They're probably both scum.

No elucidation. At all. This is the case against Locke Lamora:

Gonna help the scum bus.

VOTE: Locke Lamora

If she's town, this is lame. If she's scum, this is still lame and replacing out over getting called on it is pretty bad too.

Seriously, the level of play in this town is fairly pathetic overall. There cannot be as many scum as there are lurkers and people 'still reading' or people who BLATANTLY HAVEN'T READ ANYTHING.

[GreyICE]

Fine, whatever.

Mod: Replace me instead of DGB. The town wants to play at this level, fine.

[GreyICE]

Oh shut up, scum. Really, I'm not going to much miss this game when we can't even get together a wagon to lynch you.

[GreyICE]

Dang it. Really? Cow, you're a mean one. But seriously, I dare anyone to say they would have lynched Cow. Everyone had constantly been saying he was town.

In your spot?

Shadow was confirmed town.
Cow was confirmed town.

Okay, so which was really confirmed town? That's right, NEITHER.

So who was playing like they were town? The guy making cases and pushing people and playing like a townie? Or the guy who lurked for the entire game?

[GreyICE]

Setting up tables and dayvigging a scum neighbouriser is hardly something you'd give equal weight to though, let's be fucking honest here.

No I wouldn't. I'm not saying I wouldn't have voted for shadow in the end because I might have.

But it wouldn't have been without actually thinking about it for a nice long time - ISOs, reviewing the game, etc.