Open 289 - Hard Boiled - Game over.

[Krazy]

I'm in Hawaii time and also like both/and for RVS and RQS. I have been playing mafia off and on on another site for like a year now, but also will play a lot of quickgames. I tend to be pretty active in that I keep up on the thread but tend to make a few longer posts rather than a lot of shorter posts.

vote Yhtan

Trust me, this game will be so much better if we get a policy lynch in here right away. I mean, come on, it's Ythan.

[Krazy]

@Krazy: I've never played a game with Ythan. Why should we be policy lynching him?

He's the devil... when he realizes he's actually in this game, by page ten, four pages of the posts will be his.

[Krazy]

Irrelevant reasons. I hurt his feelings in another game.

Not supposed to talk about ongoing games Ythan. tsk tsk

[Krazy]

Ok. Since I now realize that explaining my reasoning for a policy lynch would require me to talk about an ongoing game, I will now retract my reasoning for my vote on Ythan as being a policy lynch.

Now my vote on Ythan is because he did not join in RVS and has not voted yet.

[Krazy]

I like this guy already.

Thanks for sharing. Considering there's so much discussion as to whether Xtoxm was contributing by only answering the questions, what do you make of Ythan only answering the questions and not voting? Are you letting Ythan off the hook because you find him amusing?

[Krazy]

@Krazy--so you're going to change your reasons for a vote just to keep a vote on a person you don't like? Lamesauce.

What gave you the impression I don't like Ythan? A policy lynch doesn't have to be emotionally influenced, and although Ythan characterized it that way, it's interesting that you pick up with it so easily. Ythan is the sort of person that likes to characterize other players as angry whenever they confront him over his agonism. He attempts to equate any problem with him as a personal attack or emotionally motivated. That does not mean I actually dislike him, despite what he apparently wants you to believe.

Do you have a problem with my current vote on Ythan? You have no problem with him not voting? Are you now ignoring both non-votes or being selective?

[Krazy]

Your ISO, brief though it is, certainly gives the impression that you don't particularly care for him. If my characterization was inaccurate, my heartiest apologies.
...

Krazy:

Are you now ignoring both non-votes or being selective?

Neither. Commenting on every single thing is something I have neither the time or inclination to do. Tell me why him not RVSing is scummy. If you want me to hop onto that wagon, convince me.

I'm not Ythan's best friend, for sure, but I don't particularly dislike him either.

As for the RVS, he popped in, answered the RQS, and bolted. No vote. No commentary on anyone else's votes. Absolutely no position to be held accountable for at any point in the rest of the game. Yes, I think that's scummy, in addition to being really uninformative for the town.

[Krazy]

Well, I'm going to have to eat my words in saying Ythan posts a lot...

mod: prod Ythan?

[Krazy]

Oh wait, nevermind, it's 72 hours this game not 48, my bad.

[Krazy]

I don't really like Umbrage's 39 either, but people are just ignoring my questions about Ythan. I don't like Xtoxm and Ythan doing nothing, the less they participate the easier it is for them to become free night-kill targets for the scum, or even worse be cruising scum themselves. Even if Umbrage is scum, which I'm still not sure of, he certainly has to have allies. I am not just filled with overpowering rage, Ythan has no relational tells whatsoever and at least Xtoxm was discussed by a few people. I am fine with my vote until Ythan comes back or is replaced.

[Krazy]

Wow shit you're right, TBL has made 1 post this whole game?!?!?

And Quaroth has never done anything since RV?

Game full of f'n lurkers.

But yes, I was focused on Ythan because he has 0 content AND no RV, although really TBL's solo vote no content isn't really better at all.

[Krazy]

Well I obviously didn't start with the "Who isn't participating," I moved there when a bunch of people weren't participating. As for RVS, I always focus on one person first until I feel like I can get some relational tells out of them, which you continue to refuse to provide. Although it's true that I could focus on other people in the game, it's also true YOU could comment on the other players and actions in the game.

[Krazy]

Well then I will wait just a moment.

Here, I'll even give you the benefit of the doubt.

unvote

[Krazy]

....................

....................

Well when your mafia mood returns.

vote Ythan

[Krazy]

I retracted the policy lynch days ago, Umbrage, and pressuring a lurker to participate is not at all out-of-hand. The preponderance of lurkers does not give one more sway than the others, and in fact a lurker who comes in to post only to say they are going to say something only to then not say anything is actually more scummy to me than a pure lurker.

Interesting that you want to characterize my critique of Ythan as a "marital dispute" though. Do you want to reward players for not participating? That's a wonderfully pro-town policy right there. Or are you only trying to distract from your own problems in this game?

[Krazy]

Honestly it is REALLY hard to make sense of Umbrage. He completely ignored my query about Ythan, which makes him tunneling already if nothing else, and although often I have seen CAPSRAGE posts coming from flailing town, Umbrage seems to be taking it to the next level with a relatively early wagon on him.

Scum-flailing to appear as badly-written town-flailing or just really bad town-flailing? In any case, he is coming off as the biggest troll in the thread, which is making me think he's town LOOKING FOR SOMETHING TO GRASP AT.

So, grudgingly, Umbrage is hovering "greenish" in my view. But I don't think the wagon on him is unjustified, at least not wholly, which again is pushing me toward the lurkers, who with the wagon on Umbrage have absolutely no reason to participate until Umbrage has flailed himself into a dead-lock vote, at which point they can join the wagon more or less without question.

But then, it also hasn't been THAT LONG, so although the lurkers (yes, including Ythan, but Quaroth, Xtoxm, and TBL too) are lurky, once they start posting my suspicion of them will likely change. However, until they get some relational tells that won't just make them nk-bait if they aren't scum, all four of them are at the top of my list.

But, Abel, why are you asking ME this, and not Ythan, who REALLY has engaged no one else except to dismiss my case against him? Not saying you shouldn't ask me, but why one and not the other?

[Krazy]

You can SAY you have read isos but without you posting something not in direct reaction to me I have no relational tell on you and thus I don't care how IRONIC I am being.

[Krazy]

And WHAT words mean something that I am not picking up?

[Krazy]

That is not a post that is not in direct reaction to me.

Why do you pop in only when I address other players, Ythan? Who is the one tunneling here? You QQ about me tunneling you then only respond when I start to address other players. What's up with that? What is YOUR take on Umbrage, since apparently you have read their iso and have rich thoughts on the subject?

[Krazy]

Then what is tunneling? What is lurking? Define both terms please, if you're going to accuse me of not knowing what they mean. And while you're at it, why don't you explain what a relational tell is.

Or instead of doing that, why don't you catch up on Umbrage OR ANYONE and give an actual opinion on anyone other than myself?

[Krazy]

And you know that the three people with less than two votes are AFK and not lurking because?

I did not ask you to read every player in iso. I did not ask you to read ANY player in iso. I asked you to make some contribution to the game other than responding to whatever I say to you. I asked you to play the game, since apparently you have the time to respond to me.

I notice that you didn't actually disagree with my assessment of Umbrage either, instead you merely called it ironic. Why don't you kick it up a notch. Am I scummy for saying those "ironic" things? Since you seem to refuse to respond to Umbrage himself, what about my assessment of Umbrage?

[Krazy]

EBWOP "people with less than two votes" = "people with less than two posts"

@Ythan thank you for at least calling SOMEONE scummy today.

[Krazy]

Not participating in RVS (explained in my post) and not casting a vote (equally meaningless).

Is RVS meaningless, or just not participating it? Why do you break this up into two parts?

Questions a third player on me (specifically) doing something that I'm not the only one doing. This is tunneling. He's not really interested in the behavior, only how he can tie it to me personally.

I questioned Umbrage because he chose to characterize you in that way but not comment on your behavior. This read as positioning.

tunneling

You're trying to characterize me as tunneling when you haven't posted anything that was not in direct reaction to me this whole game. All I asked you to do was to participate in the game or provide some commentary on any player other than me, something you still have not done.

Made this post right about 24 hours after my previous post and yet attempts to characterize me as lurking. His next two posts are an attempt to have me (and only me) prematurely prodded and realizing that he was in the wrong.

You yourself just characterized lurking as reading the thread but not participating in it.

Yes, the prod attempt was stupid and probably the only good justification for characterizing me as tunneling you have. Next please?

Someone first calls him on tunneling and he backpedals to broaden his criticisms. He clearly had not considered the same behavior in anyone else. Tunneling.

As I mentioned, this is true, insofar as in this regard I was partly tunneling. Next?

I have explained my method of reading players. He wants me to put four times as much effort in. Effort that nobody else is replicating at all. Not to say that nobody else is active, everyone's doing their own thing, but he's trying very hard to find a reason to stay on me. Tunneling.

This is not tunneling. You said you read four players, but did not provide any commentary for the isos you did read, despite the fact that you apparently cleared them. You chose to read four isos that is apparently not me and not umbrage; excluding yourself and the lurkers, that's basically every active player in the game. But apparently asking you to share any thought on any player is tunneling.

Even his discussion of other players is based around me.

Very astute, and true, since that was is where my vote is. If there is a player being ignored, then I tend to focus on them to draw them out. Although there are several players not posting much, some people were at least commenting on Xto. TBL and Quaroth at the time hadn't posted much, but the length of time still hadn't been that great, so I chose you since you also chose not to participate in RVS.

Your current criticisms are that I am tunneling. Very good, and as I mentioned, at least partly true.

Thank you for not addressing it.

lolwat? You can go the whole game saying jack shit but you can't wait 10 seconds for me to type up my full response?

[Krazy]

So are you going to ever address any player other than me or is this just going to be a quote war?

[Krazy]

In any case, ythan isn't the nk bait he once was.

Next:

unvote; Vote: TheBigLebowski

[Krazy]

I questioned Umbrage because he chose to characterize you in that way but not comment on your behavior. This read as positioning.

Characterized me in what way exactly?

Funny or whatever he said. In any case he chose to quote your entire questions+answers with only an impression of how funny they were without actually engaging you.

You yourself just characterized lurking as reading the thread but not participating in it.

I defined it that way, actually. Don't use weasel words.

Okay, you defined it that way. That changes my comment how?

As I mentioned, this is true, insofar as in this regard I was partly tunneling. Next?

You

were

not

partly

tunneling, you are entirely tunneling. At this point you're not asking for better evidence, you're asking for more evidence. This is even worse.

No, Ythan, you are COMPLETELY tunneling. I WAS only partly tunneling. Until you STOP tunneling you will continue to be COMPLETELY tunneling.

The rest of this quote chunk falls apart without that.

Oh, okay, so you've read what, 8 posts in the game now other than mine?

Tunnel harder and faster Ythan, please. You might not make it to China in time for tea, otherwise.

You specifically chose me, and I am not the only player who fit that criteria. Because you're tunneling.

I have explained why I continued to focus on you after the initial (mostly) random vote, and it was certainly partly because I know you have time to get into quote wars like this with me but refuse to even say the name of another player in the game unless they are responding to me.

You began before I posted. Chronological error.

I voted for you before you posted, this isn't the same as focusing on you before you posted.

You made a post recognizing the post but neither addressing it nor intimating that you had more on the way. I'm not going to give you the benefit of the doubt when this is your play so far.

Your post interrupted my EBWOP.

Glad to see you're not willing to give me the benefit of the doubt. I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you would address other players other than me, and you STILL haven't done this, claiming that I'm trying to occupy too much of your time, when you refuse to address any other player than me. Honestly there is no evidence right now that you have read a single post in this game that did not have my name as a part of it. And then you mount your entire case against me on the basis that I am tunneling on you, saying I'm the only player that you have found interesting (but you apparently can't be bothered to read Umbrage's posts, only my commentary on them).

[Krazy]

So are you going to ever address any player other than me or is this just going to be a quote war?

Are you paying any attention you dolt.

Read your own iso and show me a point where you say the name of a player that is not quoting a post of mine.

[Krazy]

I wanted you to take positions, you're taking positions, crisis averted.

I would say that my policy lynch vote on you should make sense by now without having to address the other game, but I know from experience that people can only really understand this by actually talking to you (which truly ironically, my policy lynch vote has apparently given everyone an excuse to not talk to you yet).

[Krazy]

lolumad?

[Krazy]

My vote has been off you since the beginning of this page. Why do you think I have any interest in currently pursuing a case on you? Wait, that's a rhetorical question: I don't. Every point you make in 110 is irrelevant after 108. You were lurking, then you were tunneling, and then you started participating, which is exactly what I asked of you.

inb4OMGURSTILLTUNNELING: Believe it or not, if 3+ people are going to go through the weekend with one post, then I'm going to defer judgment on the wagons forming on the active players until I have some sense of the full party.

[Krazy]

@Krazy: Right now, your vote just looks like an attempt to make it look like you weren’t tunneling on Ythan. Which you were. I completely agree that the town should be pressing lurkers to participate, but you still seem to really only care about one lurker.

The funny thing about a vote that looks like it is an attempt to make it seem like you're not tunneling and a vote that means you're not tunneling is that there is no difference.

Pot, kettle, black, yada yada yada. Also, I’m basically ignoring posts #84-117, because I don’t care remotely enough about your’s and Ythan’s schoolyard screaming match to read those walls.

AKA: ur a hypocrite, but also tl;dr. Usually you can make one criticism or the other, Darth, not both. Please call me a hypocrite; but I also encourage you to actually back up your accusation.

tl;dr is anti-town too. Should we have a "who can be more anti-town" contest?

@Ythan: At what point can we expect your thoughts on individual players (aside from Krazy)?

I'm going to just go ahead and at this in relation to the comments above.

Unvote. Vote: Krazy.

Your play so far has been hellaciously anti-town, regardless of your alignment.

OMGUS; but is your case ever going to be anything other than tl;dr?

I would like us all to take a moment and address how ironic this post is.

Is my vote on you also ironic?

Here I'll do it again in case you didn't see it the first time:

Unvote; Vote: TheBigLebowski

Contribute something.

The reason the post was ironic was that for the last 2 pages krazy was attacking Ythil, then accuses him of only attacking him. Therefore I thought it was ironic.

Please try to keep players straight. Ythil and Ythan are different players. Very different.

I'm getting mostly town vibes from the more active players, with the sole exception of Ythan, whose reactions to the assault from Krazy look a bit too complacent for what I would expect from a townie.

Although I always approve of suspicion of Ythan... "complacent"... really? That is not really how I would characterize his last 10 posts toward me.

YES THAT WAS MY FUCKING MASTER PLAN I NEEDED AN EXCUSE TO OMGUS PEOPLE SO I CREATED THIS GAMBIT BECAUSE WE ALL KNOW HOW WELL OMGUS WORKS AND IT IS SUCH A GOOD THING TO DO AS SCUM.

ONE LAST NOTE: I'm leaning toward Krazy and Ythan being scum together, and doing this shit to try and distract the town from any actual real scumhunting. I haven't read all of their back and forth, and I don't plan on doing so. They are making this thread almost impossible to read.

Umbrage, I would like you to look at these two points from the same post and compare them to each other; and then think about how people react to your rage-caps posts.

TBL seems to want to snipe at me without saying anything of substance while Xtoxm seems to want to come off as reading Ythan's posts while not actually doing so. Both just graduated a step above Quaroth in my list. Umbrage continues to strike me as flailtown, although it's interesting that he continues with the rage-caps the next day, after I mentioned it.

I would say DarthYoshi was +1 for pulling a tl;dr attack, except I know from experience that tl;dr is a common town reaction to exchanges with Ythan. How about this Darth: Instead of QQing about my quote war with him, why don't you ask him a few more questions yourself? Again, both you and Ythan can QQ about me "tunneling" on him, but that doesn't excuse you from not engaging him at all.

[Krazy]

1. Is that all you have to say about my comments on irony.
2. Why are you only voting me and not a lurker like iamausername who has only posted twice. This makes it look like you are trying to distance yourself from Ythan

1 - Yes.

2 - "a lurker like iamausername" is a nice start but why don't you kick it up a notch. What do you think about Umbrage?

[Krazy]

Geez, there's really been fifty posts since my last post, which was only 15-16 hours ago? Okay then.

I'd like you to compare to this comment you made earlier Abel:

So you're saying that Ythan posts a lot, so you want him gone? Sounds like you're scum trying to prevent the flow of information in the game.

Do lots of posts still = flow of information?

Yeah, you will probably say self-fulfilling prophecy, but then again, you also have yet to address Ythan yourself. Instead you have only continued to QQ about me prodding you to engage him. Oh, and by the way, me prodding you to engage him != an attack on Ythan.

Damn it. All he had to do was go a whole post without attacking Ythan.

That post was not an attack, but your decision to misrepresent it has been noted.

I don't even need to make up quotes for you, you write good ones on your own!

Are you actually accusing Umbrage of having that be his "master plan," or are you just being sarcastic here? Straight answer please.

I like Krazy's last couple of posts, if only because they've been relatively Ythan-free. Hope he continues like this.

And what do you think of Ythan's posts?

No joke.

[Krazy]

Maybe Ythan and Krazy are best buddies!

At least Ythan doesn't CAPSRAGE every other post.

[Krazy]

You disagree with the reasoning and yet support the suspicion. Because you're an intense tunneler.

Your capacity to detect sarcasm never ceases to astound me. And are you still mad about the prod or what? "shitfit" = me asking you to post "content" and not just informing us that you're reading the isos of the V/LA players?

inb4qqaboutrespondingtoYthan.

[Krazy]

You're a horrible, shitty, tunneling VI, and you're doing nothing but creating noise. Obnoxious, terrible noise.

Clearly I am a child having a temper tantrum.

[Krazy]

then spend nearly every post bitching at me.

You're still a tunneling idiot.

Ythan, feel free to consult post #111 in response to these posts.

Ythan's last two posts sum up my attitude toward Krazy perfectly.

@ Krazy: Either let your pissing match with Ythan drop or replace out of this game now.

So let me get this straight:

You agree with Ythan that my vote on TBL is doing nothing, but you also want me to not respond to Ythan's deluge of curses and insults. Very well, in that case, would you like to suggest a third candidate? Do you then have a town read on TBL? Any read at all?

How about Quaroth?

[Krazy]

See the end of #131.

[Krazy]

Stop making multiple posts directed at me. Just stop it. I'm not going to respond unless you make a point worth responding to.

[Krazy]

Way to talk about an ongoing game.

[Krazy]

Game has been over since the third, idiot.

Oh you're right.

But I wasn't in that game?

Sorry I was assuming you were talking about the game we were actually in together. MY BAD

[Krazy]

Sniping is still sniping and active lurking is still active lurking. Xto has not given any explanation for his lack of contribution to this game and TBL seems to want to make a point out of his irony, thus making his "irony" posts 50% of his contribution to the game. If I have null-tells on the active players, and the lurkers have chosen to address 50% of their posts in regard to my exchange with Ythan, then it is impossible to comment on those players. I want the remaining lurkers to take positions.

Umbrage seems to be losing it but I still fail to see how his hysterics translates into scumplay. Insofar as he has been hysterical, it's difficult saying one player has been scummier than another in joining the wagon on him, since most are making good criticisms of him. However, it seems probable that at least one person on the Umbrage wagon is scum. Even if Umbrage is scum himself, his position in this game could lead to early wagoning, however I do not currently believe that to be the case. But since there so much room to make compelling criticism of Umbrage, I don't think any scum player has needed to stretch themselves to join the wagon. I will probably re-read the wagon on him once more people have caught up on the game or there is a flip. Continuing to grill Umbrage only makes it easier for lurkers to join the wagon on him when they do return to the game.

Between Xto, Quaroth, TheBigLebowski, and iamausername, there are enough players for an entire scumteam; I don't think they are fully located to them, but until they get into the game and contribute something, they are both night-kill bait and null-tells. Among them, if TBL and Xto are going to make six character posts or one-sentence responses to the last four pages, then I would characterize that as active lurking and I will continue to confront them until they have taken some position on some player in the game.

The point of giving the post number was so that I would not be repeating myself; since you want to join the characterization of me as "tunneling" on Ythan, it seemed prudent to direct you to the post on the previous page where I addressed my current concerns with other players.

[Krazy]

So, are you saying that you believe Umbrage is town?

Not the first time I've said this, but apparently I've never posited any opinion of any player other than Ythan. Very surprised no one commented on this before.

There's been a few problems with Umbrage, but the first that comes up is his vote for Snake Eyes--which was underexplained but not scummish, and he has since moved on, which is also townish.

He pointed out Xto's lack of participation--which was town play, not scummish.

He questioned CS's motives--which was town play, not scummish.

He characterizes himself as setting himself up as bait--and indeed, games never move past RVS if every vote comes off as pure RVS with absolutely no basis behind it. That doesn't mean he's hellbent on anyone vote or another.

He does contradict himself:

A bandwagon needs people pushing it.

You seem desperate to stop RVS and get a wagon started.

This is problematic, but doesn't do much for me in terms of scumplay. This is more any-player trying to justify their "serious vote" gambit above, while trying to dispel a counter-wagon on them. Poor reasoning, and as it's poor reasoning it's not townish, but it's not scummish either. It's a misplay on either side of the fence. His downplay of his contradiction is also problematic, and marginally scummier than the contradiction itself.

Snake Eyes is saying at that point in the game a lot of the same stuff I'm saying right now, which is what gave me the impression that SE and Umb in particular were moving into a marginally un-scummish nulltell.

His posts starting to on around here is where he really starts to lose it:

Umbrage seems to be doing a lot of OMGUS voting and a whole lot of flipping out for a relatively painless page one, three-vote, get us out of RVS bandwagon. And the whole act scummy to see who bites thing is just silly.

OH I'M SORRY FOR SCUMHUNTING WHILE YOU'VE BEEN PICKING YOUR NOSE. You clearly don't understand what you are talking about, because the very nature of the gambit I pulled means that I will have to attack the people who attack me. It is only OMGUS if you do not provide reasoning for your votes. I've provided reasoning every step of the way. The only reasoning you've provided is that I'm 'silly'.

a relatively painless page one, three-vote, get us out of RVS bandwagon.

NO!!!!!!! WRONG!!!!!!!!!!! SNAKE EYES SAID THAT HE FOUND ME SCUMMY!!!!!!!!! I HAVE PROVEN IT WAS NOT A GET-OUT-OF-RVS BANDWAGON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU HAVEN'T EVEN BEEN FUCKING READING THE FUCKING THREAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have to go lie down...

This meltdown was kinda random, but I'm getting the impression Umbrage is a bit volatile. Again, I'm taking this as part of Umbrage's disposition, not as reflective of his position in the game. He basically sees the contradiction in the explanation for his RVS compared to his response to SE who was basically calling him on exactly what he was doing, and he more or less announces he was doing.

So basically the Snake-Eyes/AbelCain/Umbrage trifecta is striking me as townflailing on town. The whole thing is a colossal null-tell and I didn't really feel the need to break it down when at that point it was seeming way more likely that the scum are lurkers mixed with wagoners on Umbrage.

This bit seems to be saying that a bandwagon on a player for which there is "so much room to make compelling criticism" is bad, and that the more they are pressed the worse off we are. This appears to run contrary to the idea of scum hunting. Can you elaborate on your thought process here?

This is kind of getting into pure theory territory, but I do not think the "more [Umbrage] is pressed the worse off we are" but rather, the more Umbrage is pressed the easier it will be for lurkers to join the wagon. This is uninformative for those players, so perhaps indirectly bad for the town. In this setup, the hammer falls when a simple majority is reached, so we never REALLY get a sense of who, in a pinch, really would or would not hammer. It's interesting to see who joins the wagon at what point and for what reasons, but since the heart of the matter seems to be a townish SE and a townish AC poking a townflailing Umb it still seems more prudent to look at the lurkers.

I also feel like my exchange with Ythan has probably produced a relative null-tell.

That's why my questions lately have been:
-Who will try to produce a wagon out of it
-Who will ignore it completely
-Who will pretend to read it but only use it as an excuse to hide

When TBL and Xto basically come in to say "hey look Ythan and Krazy had a little exchange" with no comment on any activity in the entire game, I still see that as active lurking and more scummy than the AC/SE/Umbrage townpoke/townflail.

[Krazy]

EBWOP: "This is uninformative for those players, so perhaps indirectly bad for the town." --> "This is uninformative for

our read of

those players, so perhaps indirectly bad for the town."

[Krazy]

Would you please explain why he does not?

[Krazy]

Darth, I'm going to let most of your comments stand, and your questions seemed rhetorical (the one maybe not being the "why not both?" and if you actually wanted to discuss that let me know). I'm heading to class now and will re-read the other posts from this morning once I get back.

[Krazy]

Rereading a couple isos. I have to agree with Ythan that V's #62 is annoying, both to read and to reread.

CS says he gets bored of the Umbrage discussion because of the wall posts and also gets bored of my exchange with Ythan; like Darth, basically gives a tl;dr, UNLIKE Darth, goes on to imply that Umbrage et.al is also tl;dr.

I also notice that CS's interest in the game basically seems to drop off simultaneously with V unvoting him.

@CS: Aside from the Umbrage wagon you helped form and then got bored of, I'm not really sure I at this point can characterize you as not also active lurking. Among the Umbrage wagon, if I were to guess that there was someone scum on it (which there is, admittedly, no guarantee), you would be my first guess.

Parts of this post have bothered me for a while, but moreso now that he seems to have ceased actively pursuing the Umbrage wagon:

Think further

OK, so my vote on ConSpiracy is about as serious as you can get for page 1 reads. Xtoxm stands out as odd to me, he didn't random vote, he didn't really say hello or anything, he just answered the questions. I'm not saying it's scum or town, it just looks odd.

Great, post. Are you going to point out things that are scummy or only things that you see as null?

"think further" = make my case for me?

"Great, post. Are you going to point out things that are scummy or only things that you see as null?"

--> Although players should point out scummy behavior, observing false-positives and asserting them as null is still a position to take and a contribution to the town (although whether that's actually what was going on here is debateable).

I would test my theory that CS's interest in the game is directly proportional to the number of votes on him, but I haven't quite gotten all I want out of my vote on TBL yet.

[Krazy]

--> Although players should point out scummy behavior, observing false-positives and asserting them as null is still a position to take and a contribution to the town (although whether that's actually what was going on here is debateable).

Um, yeah, that's totally what I did.

Sorry, would you mind clarifying if this is sarcasm or not? If you're disagreeing with my assessment I'd like to hear more.

[Krazy]

(Also at misquoting me as Ythan.)

[Krazy]

tl;dr = too long; didn't read.

Quaroath please update us as to which questions are still relevant when you finish, since it seems you are posting questions that you later figure out yourself.

[Krazy]

You’re clearly reading the thread, but are saying very little.

So is everyone else, they're just using more words to do so.

So basically you're going to take a snipe at the entire thread as an excuse for not saying anything?

"Well, not one person in this thread is actually saying anything, so really I'm just like everyone else I just waste less of my own time."

I got that right?

[Krazy]

EBWOP oh I'm sorry, not nothing, "very little."

[Krazy]

Apparently werewolf, which is TBL's brother, is being replaced in other games. I'm starting to think he's just straight MIA and not actually lurking.

So now I can test my theory!

unvote; vote CS

[Krazy]

I don't believe I've ever given any indication that I was unwilling to

read

the long posts.

It's a damn good thing we're all telepaths so that we know exactly what you're thinking about these long posts you so diligently read.

[Krazy]

Instead of spamming paragraphs in Latin maybe you could make a case against him instead of begging and pleading with us to make your case for you.

Saying "hey guys this guy is scum because I say so" is not a contribution, sorry.

[Krazy]

@Town as a whole--though I was uneasy with CS’s vote on Umbrage, he hasn’t done anything after that to really set off my scumdar, so my read on him is mostly neutral. My vote is better served elsewhere atm.

Unvote. Vote: Krazy.

Your play so far has been hellaciously anti-town, regardless of your alignment.

I think any vote outside of the RVS needs at least a few words of explanation as to why you are voting

for

someone, but I find it suspicious when someone makes a show of why they are taking it

off

of someone when they move it. It's worrying about appearances and that's something more likely to come from scum than town.

You're wise beyond your years, Vordark. I was more concerned about the fact that he is self-admittedly voting Krazy for reasons that have nothing to do with his alignment, but this may be an even better observation.

^This is you already having done so?

[Krazy]

So when Yoshi says:

Vordark thinks I've spent too much time engaging Krazy, and that I have some unhelpful beliefs about mafia theory. I think that putting pressure on Krazy was the right move, and he is in fact now behaving in a much more townish manner. I don't think I was unduly calling attention to my votes; I think saying my read has changed on someone who I had my vote on is a fairly normal thing to do.

Your response is...?

Or are you hoping to

ignore

Yoshi's response into a lynch?

This I guess is your idea of active scumhunting?

[Krazy]

My opinion of DarthYoshi is rather in flux. In regard to your entire case on him, I don't think him explaining his thought process behind maintaining or dropping a vote is all that suspicious, no. There are some things he has said that have irked me, but right now he is not my top candidate, or even in my top 3.

You however are an altogether different story. Your attempts at deflection, your piggy-backing on V, and your active lurking have raised you considerably on my list. Your decision to not actually communicate your rejection of Yoshi's defense makes it seem like you don't actually want to make or pursue a case on him, but rather want a case to be made against him by other players so that you can then present yourself as a distanced judge. Which you are not.

Since you seem to want to ask point blank opinions of other players, what is your opinion of CS? You seem to be skeptical of V voting him instead of Yoshi but did not actually explain why.

[Krazy]

Isn't optimal play in that case for the mafia to cross-claim a power role? Why wouldn't they? They need the extra mislynch and the last mafia would have more room to breathe among the non-PRs.

[Krazy]

Yeah but isn't our end-game at that point not auto-win?

That's a real question, I haven't really done the maths, but that is my assumption at the moment.

[Krazy]

In which case the scum will have to claim detective or psychologist. Hider-tracker and hider are cross-confirming, vigilante would just shoot his CC, and tracker would be confirmable.

So yeah, figure out if it is still-auto-win if the scum claim detective/psychologist, and then we will know for sure.

[Krazy]

Assuming worst case scenario

-where the tracker is a tracker instead of a vig
-where we lynch the real detective day 1:

NOW - 9:3

D1 - lynch real cop; night tracker is worthless because obviously kill is coming from fake cop; fake cop kills real tracker.
7:3
D2 - lynch fake cop; night hider tracker dies
6:2
D3 - lynch VT; night kill VT; let's even say the hider somehow got himself killed too by hiding behind wrong person.
3:2
D4 Town is now lylo vs. 2 mafs with no power roles. This I believe is the absolute worst case scenario with a full role reveal.

So for "autowin" to be true:
-We must be sure the tracker/vig is a vig, not a tracker.
-hider has to not be too risky (which might mean not hiding?). Honestly at this point there's nowhere for the hider to hide safely

And again, once you add in one scum from the three-man team claiming detective, it just becomes a real mess real fast. Because we HAVE to lynch between cop claims immediately, because otherwise the fake cop will just keep doing the night kills thus rendering the real cop useless.

[Krazy]

There's also the minor point that a massclaim game would probably be exceedingly dull until the very end.

[Krazy]

Krazy was

Indeed I was, after I also mentioned that instead of being an auto-win the game could easily became a 5 player lylo with no power roles.

But yes, it does ALSO result in a dull game until the end.

[Krazy]

Sorry I'm a bit behind in this game, I have a 50 page paper coming up. Will try to be caught up by Sunday.

unvote

[Krazy]

First, there's some questions from like a week ago that I completely missed.

@ Krazy, you recently seem to have dropped your vote and suspicion for Ythan, does that mean you currently think he's town?

Ythan has been upgraded to null-tell in my book.

Krazy: The funny thing about a vote that looks like it is an attempt to make it seem like you're not tunneling and a vote that means you're not tunneling is that there is no difference.

@ Krazy, you seem to be of the opinion that Yoshi is/was tunnelling on you, can you point out what posts he did so?

In this post I was actually responding to DY's claim that I was tunneling on Ythan. I was not characterizing DY as tunneling on me here.

All this just proves my point: you did not fine my VOTE on CS to be scummy. You saw someone make a SERIOUS vote in RVS and thought: "Hey, that would make an excellent wagon!" Now, you JUST SAID that you did not wagon me to get out of RVS. You ALSO said that you did NOT find me scummy at that time! Which means that there is NO excusable motive for wagoning me. NONE. Either you were watching out for your buddies ConSpiracy and xtoxm, or you were looking for a good wagon. EITHER WAY YOU ARE SCUM. EITHER WAY YOU NEED TO DIE.

Umbrage, like several other players, I have a VERY SLIGHT townread on you, but posts like this are seriously bothering me. Again and again you make a not-totally-empty but still weak as hell case against someone and then say YOU NEED TO DIE! It's like, even if I sort of agree with you, the cases you've been making just aren't really all that damning.

This xtoxm wagon advanced much faster than I'd expect a wagon on anything but obvscum to go. Coupled with the lurking town vibe I'm getting off him, I'm inclined to believe scum are pushing it. Lurker = easy target, easy vote. And five votes for a lurker when there are more suspicious players is a joke.

CS's posts, in particular his replies to mine regarding DathYoshi, are

serious

chainsaws and pushing an easy wagon. For example, in CS's long post (#299), he offers a chainsaw of Umbrage against myself, SE and Ythan, he offers a chainsaw of DY against me, then finally pushes a vote of xtoxm based on lurking and, wait for it,

another

chainsaw for DY.

I'm calling DarthYoshi, ConSpiracy and Umbrage scum, in order of relative certainty. I think there's an outside chance Umbrage is just tunneling town, but either way I think he deserves a vig shot tonight when DY flips scum.

The first sentence here bothers me... first, how fast, really, was the wagon on Xto? Second, why wouldn't it be that fast after some of the ridiculous posts he's been making? I mean, have you been reading them? For real?

The other thing here is that, I am going to go on a limb and say that I do not believe based on posts like this that Vordark and DarthYoshi are both scum together. They can both be town, or one can be scum, but if one is scum, they are not of the same faction. This will be important later.

__

Now I would just like to make an observation. AbelCain and Vordark never talk *to* each other. Seriously, read their isos, there's like one point where they make one very courteous response to each other and that's it. Neither really characterizes their reads on each other (except briefly in V's massive early wall-post of the entire early-game), neither has put either player up in relation to other players, etc. For two players that have been so relatively active, this actually bothers me quite a bit. I feel like, looking at either player, they talk to every other active player at some length, except each other.

So let's pretend that AC and V are scumbuddies. They are smartly putting themselves on different wagons today. So then the question becomes, is either one bussing an ally? As I mentioned above, I am very skeptical of the idea that V is bussing DarthYoshi. That combined with my faint-town-leaning-null-read on Yoshi has me thinking that's certainly not a bus. (That being said, iamausername did make a fairly decent case here to characterize DY as active lurking/poor scumhunting, etc. But I feel like a lot of it rested on the "DY being self-conscious about appearing townish" which, although I can see where he's coming from, seemed a touch blown out of proportion).

Abelcain bussing Xtoxm is certainly a possibility, especially with the way that Xtoxm has been playing. If I was scum I would bus fast and bus hard, UNLESS my scumbuddy was also bussing hard and fast, in which case I'd try to appear skeptical. That being said, I'm hesitant to believe that either is necessarily bussing an ally on d1.

So I'm trying to think who else would make possible scumbuddy:

There are two players I would instantly eliminate from a AC/V scumteam, and two players who coincidentally I am also leaning town on:
Umbrage - Would be leaning town, but null-tell because of his "[weak point] - THEREFORE YOU MUST DIE" posts.
ConSpiracy - Nullish but leaning town.

Another player I am leaning town on but would not eliminate from a AC/V scumteam is: iamausername.

That leaves four players that I have relatively weak reads on (continuing with the above observations and continuing the thought experiment of an AC/V scumteam) for non-bussing possibilities:

Regfan - Null, for now. Too new for a clear sense, but listed AbelCain as a scumread. That's something at least, so seeing this as the least likely of the four of my current nulls.

Quaroath - I don't like this one, largely because of Q's posts, a lot of them are in direct response to V. Could fit with an AC scumteam (for much of the same reasons I'm currently positing the AC/V scumteam), but would be less happy with an AC/V/Q scumteam.

Ythan - Null, for now. This is not the Ythan I know from last game, and that is making it very difficult to read him (in addition to his sort of dip in activity). Could fit with an AC/V scumteam, (or an AC/Q scumteam). Has never interacted with Vordark, Abelcain, or Quaroth. Fits, but there are several other players Ythan hasn't really interacted with either so this could easily be coincidence.

Snake Eyes - Nullish. Has interacted with Q in such a way that would slightly push him away from a scumteam with him. Almost fits too well with a Vordark/Abelcain team, since that would mean the scum presented a united front.

So AC/V/Q, AC/V/Q, or AC/V/SE all work in this current thought experiment. As does, additionally, AC/V/Xto (with bus).

I'm aware that the problem with the current train of thought is that AC, V, and SE have all seemed so "sane" in comparison to Umbrage, and so that they might have had a bit less of an impetus to prod each other. Still, even though Umbrage has continued to present his "epic cases" and people who were on the original anti-Umbrage wagon have continued to bite off at it, to the point that I sometimes wonder if they aren't persisting in it simply to make themselves look better in comparison to Umbrage's hysterical antics.

I definitely want to address the relationship (or non-relationship) between these players before nightfall. I will vote

Vordark

right now since some of his posts have bothered me marginally more than AC's, Q's, or SE's.

[Krazy]

For someone who lists DY as their top suspect you seem to be doing EVERYTHING YOU CAN to ensure you are lynched instead of him.

[Krazy]

Yes, I have been reading his posts. For

real

, dude! He's lazy town.

This is several steps away from being lazy to being self-admittedly suicidal. "Lazy" is not the first word I would use to describe someone who says they "signed their own death warrant" when they hardclaimed VT for no reason.

Can you state a succinct case that doesn't require the implicit assumption that I

am

scum? So far we've only heard that some of my posts have "bothered" you, and that I didn't mention someone. By the way, I haven't spoken "directly" with you, Ythan, xtoxm or SE either. Is there a reason you fixate on Ablecain in particular?

Because with Xtoxm you'd be pushing away from a lynch, and both Ythan and SE I mention are viable third-candidates for a scumteam with you. I mentioned AC first because I noticed it first, and also sometimes got the impression you were either working around each other or mutually supporting each other's positions. You felt more "buddied" than you and Ythan without any buddying having occurred directly in thread. But it would require a very long post to try to show this and I thought it'd be easier to just ask you about it first, since it's still more of an impression than a damning fact. I can't tell if you both just think a lot alike, or if one of you at all thought the other was sheeping positions but trying to make it seem like the positions came from just the obvious impressions of the thread.

How about this Vordark, what do you think of AC's vote on Xtoxm? Is it scummy opportunism? I know I could ask this about anyone on the Xtoxm wagon, and if there IS someone on the Xtoxm wagon (other than CS which I think you already mentioned) that you think is opportunistic scum, I'd like to hear about them too.

[Krazy]

EBWOP: "You felt more "buddied" than you and Ythan without any buddying having occurred directly in thread." -->
"You felt more 'buddied' with AC without any buddying having occured in thread".
No idea how I butchered that sentence so badly.

[Krazy]

V, a lot of my suspicion of you right now is my understanding of how people interpret my meta and how scum try to play me. Apparently, I give the impression of being "gullible" and a semi-weak player, so on D1-D2 scum will try to agree with some of my points and/or try to guide me into a wagon. A lot of your case against DarthYoshi is basically that DY provoked me, when really town provoking me is not an uncommon occurrence since I can be abrasive. On the other hand, my blitz against Ythan was a bit extreme even for me, and it seemed like a lot of the townies this game simply wanted to ignore it completely. That, combined with DY giving a "tl;dr" response instead of finding something substantially wrong with my interaction with Ythan was actually a bit provocative, so DY is hardly clear in my book. But, based on the majority of experiences I've had, scum will try to be on my side more than against me, since they can see me as useful to their causes.

The other thing about your posts, V, is that you seem to do an iso on Snake Eyes, but your tone throughout is one of using your iso of Snake Eyes to cast more suspicion at Umbrage and keep the attention on the on-going debate there. Just as you've seemed to tiptoe around AC, it didn't seem like you were actively scumhunting SE. Again, this does fit your characterization of yourself that you don't scumhunt people you have townreads on. However, would scum try to keep attention on Umbrage, whose ragecapsing etc. make him an easy target for a lynch? Would scum avoid confronting me so that they can guide me into a lynch? Yes, scum would do both of these things, and so have you.

I'm also just generally concerned with the way that you, Snake Eyes, and AC have seemed to present a united front, without any of you really seeming concerned that any of you are sheeping etc.

Unfortunately, scum or town, you've played a good game so it's not like I can poke at your posts and say, "OMG BASED ON QUOTE XYZ YOU ARE OBVSCUM!" My suspicion of you right now is based predominantly on your relationships and my understanding of how scum interact with me. Outside of these things, I would only point at your non-scum-hunt-iso read of Snake Eyes as the only genuinely suspicious thing you've done, and it's only what Reg would call an "S1".

[Krazy]

That, combined with DY giving a "tl;dr" response instead of finding something substantially wrong with my interaction with Ythan was actually a bit provocative, so DY is hardly clear in my book. But, based on the majority of experiences I've had, scum will try to be on my side more than against me, since they can see me as useful to their causes.

Although on thinking of it a bit more, DY's response here and additional provoking of me while the rest of the town ignored me would make sense if he was paired with Ythan. But I'm not sure why he would continue to keep pressure on me in that case if a town-flip lynch on me would put Ythan in serious trouble, in that scenario.

[Krazy]

Krazy, come here pal! Join the XXX wagon!

Also V, a point to your credit, posts like the above do bother me, but usually scum aren't THIS obvious about it

[Krazy]

On that note Umbrage, I would add that in http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p2682025 "Suspiciously Average Mafia" he replaced into a game from a D1 fake PGO claim to a winning endgame as scum.

Ironically, the town in that game instantly responded "I've seen more fake PGO claims than I have real ones!" But they WIFOM'd themselves out of a lynch.

So Xtoxm would have experience with early fake-town claims D1 resulting in a winning end-games.

[Krazy]

Looking at the game where Xtoxm won based in large part due to his replacee's pgo-claim on d1 suggests that Xto has some fair experience with reaping the benefits of town hardclaims on D1. In my personal experience with hard-claiming vanilla town on D1, I find that people who hardclaim vanilla town are more likely to be scum when they appear otherwise "lurkish" or "noobish"--although Xtoxm's play has been widely erratic today, I am not overall struck with the sense that he is a "noobish" player, which makes his hardclaim just all the more baffling to me, to the point of being downright scummy when combined with his meta on the game I mentioned earlier.

That, and he's pretty much totally given up, isn't even giving the pretext of scumhunting, and can only barely be qualified as even playing the game. It's beyond certain that the scum will never kill him (if he isn't one himself), and that even if alive will only be dead-weight. I personally wouldn't trust him at this point should he be alive at 5 or 3 player lylo, and he will be a huge distraction should we enter 6 player mylo (moreso than Umbrage? who can say.). If he was going to play like this as town, he should have replaced out. The risk of him being WIFOMing scum right now to me is like 50-50, which for day 1 lynches isn't bad at all.

There's also the problem of Xtoxm's relationships to other players, insofar as: who is Xtoxm unlikely to be on a scumteam with? No one, he could literally be paired with any player in the game. Anyone on his wagon could be bussing.

So

unvote; vote Xtoxm

___________________
Other thoughts:

Umbrage: Every post he makes is increasingly giving me the impression of "vig-bait." He's incredibly reactionary, which combined with his ragecapsing earlier seems to have basically given him a license to say whatever he wants because no one takes him seriously anymore. Short of Xtoxm who has basically given up, Umbrage is easily the most anti-town (as in not helping town interests, not sure I'm using that term right) player in the game, short of actually being scum. Still, in a game that COULD have a vigilante, I seriously wonder whether scum would be this trollish. I keep leaning town on him just because of this, but since it seems hard now to hold him accountable for the sensibility of his posts, he is still a high threat. My gut says green, but my head says red.

Ythan: has been very different this game from my previous game with him. Mostly, he's been more aloof and distant, with less active scumhunting. Partly I get the impression he's more busy in real life / less interested in the game, but the end result has been that he is the most null of any of my reads based on his post content. I really don't like this. Joining the Umbrage wagon seemed like a completely "safe" position to take. However, him sticking to Umbrage well after the rest of the wagon has dissipated is, out of everything else, very similar to his previous (town) play. However, him seeming baffled by the lack of the wagon rather than pursuing it more stringently is unusual. An Ythan/Umbrage scumteam could explain a lot here, with Ythan half-wanting to bus Umbrage but not really wanting to pursue it when other wagons are springing up. No way to substantiate this right now, however. I know the idea of me FoSing Ythan should shock no one, but the more I think about the game as a whole and groupings within it, the more I find myself suspecting Ythan. Which probably means he's town. (That's sort of a joke and sort of not)

[Krazy]

It wasn't a slip in the first place(because he was responding to your points and you just took it out of context and tried to twist it to a scumslip) but this sure is. The only person here who seems to know xtoxm's alignment is you. Shouldn't this sort of accusation come after we actually know if xtoxm is town or not?

Deadline is in a little over a day, so it's probably going to have to be xtoxm. He's a claimed vanilla who's not even trying to defend himself. He could be replaced because he seems to have quit the game, but I see little point in making the mod go through the hassle when it's pretty much a doomed slot and we're close to the deadline. I'll hammer him in about 24 hours if necessary, don't want to deadline to a no lynch.

If you seriously think Umbrage is slipping here, shouldn't you be saying we should lynch him instead?

[Krazy]

VOTE: Xtoxm

Now somebody hammer already.

I think you just did.

[Krazy]

Oh no wait, just kidding, Q moved off.

[Krazy]

V was on DY before, so this is a real hammer, not a fake hammer.

Not sure if town is allowed to talk during twilight, but Xtoxm is:

During Twilight
1. Votes and unvotes will not be counted after a lynch.
2. The person lynched may still talk during Twilight until their lynch scene is posted.

Any last words?

[Krazy]

Wait.... what? How is that even possible?

Hider behind Quaroth, CS shoots Quaroth, and then Quaroth shoots CS?

That right?

[Krazy]

So thinking mostly on Q's death, just first impressions:

-Umbrage looks more town.
-Regfan looks very slightly more town.
-Yoshi looks slightly more town.

Q was either buddying or sheeping some of our stumps. He was slowly rising in my list of suspicion. Going to have to think on this and re-read and review some isos.

IMO it looks like Q wanted to setup Umbrage to lynch today, so how about we don't do that mmkay?

[Krazy]

Who is "him" Ythan?

And who Iaaun hid behind is sort of irrelevant, I was just trying to get a sense of how there were three deaths last night. I presumed Quaroth because I personally would not have hid behind CS.

I have a massive post on Q's iso now so if that's the reaction you were waiting for Ythan I will go ahead and post that now. Mmmkay?

[Krazy]

Oh. I was indeed under that impression. Forgot he can die off investigations etc. too.

Anyway, on to Q.

_____

So our scum #1, thanks to CS: Quaroth. As I go through here I'm going to make comments like +1, -1, +2, or +.5. +1 is slightly more suspicious. -1 is slightly less suspicious. +2 is way more suspicious. -2 is way less suspicious. +.5 is very slightly more suspicious.

I hope to post every day, at minimum every other. I've been having some serious health issues recently but they seem to be fixing themselves now. If I have to V/LA i'll say so.

...
as for my vote: VOTE: Darth Yoshi cause is Yoshi goes Sith, we are all doomed.

So two things here. First, he says he will be active, but ultimately I'd say he was more lurkerish than not. Second, he starts with a vote on DarthYoshi. Scum voting partners or not voting partners in RVS is of course full of WIFOM, but in my general experience scum are less likely to vote their partners than not. To me, this is a tentative -1 for DarthYoshi.

Umbrage looks like hes flailing around halfway through page 3 (at this point I’m up to post 64)
There is a lot of backtracking and circular logic in his posts, with a good chunk of contradictions. You ain’t lookin good Umbrage.
I have a strong town feeling towards Snake eyes, and a null read on CS to this point, though CS is a hair over the town line.

Krazy, could you put into words on a post why you want to lynch Ythan? Up until #64 you’ve said squat that isn’t “policy lynch”, if in name only, since you can’t talk about ongoing games. Serious Ythan tunneling going on here. PEDIT: nevermind Reached the explosion of posting and figured it out myself.

Umbrage, you got pretty agro towards people with post #66… capslock ftl? I don’t A.) see what you are saying to Vordak here, and B.) really don’t think GOING ALL CAPLOCKAGRO IS GOING TO HELP PEOPLE UNDERSTAND WHATYOU ARE SAYING AND DESIRE TO READ YOUR POSTS. Irony eh?

@Krazy 81, while I do think this is umbrage trying to deflect, you and Ythan have had an… interesting little pat up until this point. Mostly you.

I find the ping pong posting between Krazy and Ythan pretty hardcore personal dispute, over a game dispute. Come on guys and girls, be civil and nice as we lynch people. 34 straigth posts by Krazy and Ythan, mostly @ each other. Is this a record? >_<

@ 119, I’m getting a pretty solid town vibe from Vordak. Solid posts, and very clear in the thought process.
@122/Umbrage. I _ am _so _ not _ feeling _this.

.....

I alo agree with snake’s #134 that you are misrepresenting him with your post.

So a few things here.

1 - Q is pretty clearly pushing toward an Umbrage lynch. This is almost -2 for Umbrage. I don't see scum busing day 1 like this.

2 - Something that bothered me before but I didn't feel like commenting on is that Q addresses all of the Krazy/Ythan exchange comments to me. What's up with that? Why not ask Ythan anything? FMPOV this is +1 for Ythan, but I'm not sure if I also don't come off worse here.

3 - "a pretty solid town vibe from Vordark" - buddying or trying to keep his ally clear? +.5 for V.

4 - Like Vordark, Q was interested in maintaining the position that Umbrage was misrepresenting Snake Eyes (admittedly, I still sort of see this, but there it is). +.5 for SE, but this could just be sheeping.

prod avoidance, just finished a 44 hours work weekend fri-sun, will catch up/post when conscious in morning.

Quaroath's last two posts have been placed only to avoid getting prodded and have contained no content. I think he needs some encouragement.

Unvote

Vote: Quaroath

I stopped at #195 for this.

Fair. And deserved. The (what felt like) 5 page explosion while I was at work sunday made it a slog and I put it off.

Something kind of bothers me about this post. Could this be AC saying "get in the game or I will bus you?" Or is this AC generally prodding a now-confirmed scum? Null-tell here but Q's reaction here did annoy me. It is one thing to point out how AC's vote on him is "fair and deserved." (Then again, it really was)

Rereading a couple isos. I have to agree with Ythan that V's #62 is annoying, both to read and to reread.

Holy crap! Did the world implode?

Again, like Q keeping the attention on Umbrage, Q wants to continue to characterize me as totally nuts when it comes to Ythan when our early game exchange had long since past. And again, he keeps the attention on me and not Ythan.

-His next post seems overly concerned with "what AC was saying" and actually goes so far as to explain for him. Q's play here with CS, AC, SE, and V all was more or less the same: They are all right, Umbrage is always wrong.

-The beginning of one of his next posts is concerning. He says he has a town vibe from DarthYoshi when DY had two votes on him at least is problematic. DarthYoshi back +1.

The "Snake Eyes is full of WIFOM" argument is more interesting though. Is this -1 for SE? I think so. But this could also be distancing.

@ Darth Yoshi #254 @Quaraoth: It sounds like you're backtracking from your pro-town read on me. Is that because of Vordark's case, or are there other reasons?

…. I hadn’t even posted between when I said I read you town and this post. Wtf!

Anyways, no I still feel you are town. The argument, if you want to call it that, between you and vordark has only reinforced that belief. You’ve answered to the questions posed to you reasonably). As the walls have grown you haven’t strayed or circled back to contradict yourself. I think that you are on firm ground on your position. I consider the lack of waffling a pro-town tell. Scum go with the wind, something you haven’t done. I don’t agree with some of what you’ve said (I’m really not getting some of the back and forth with you and vordak) but you don’t feel particularly scummy to me.

Again, Q emphasizes how town DY is. Hmm.

In the end, Vordark brings up a fallacy that doesn’t apply to the situation, Yoshi points this out, and abel implies that by pointing out that the fallacy doesn’t apply, Darth is scumy. When I read this, (and I had to look up the fallacy) it didn’t read that the fallacy applied only to the first sentence, but the first portion of the post, which was the first two sentances in the nest. I'm not sure you aren't misrepresenting the conversation yourself.

Quaroth says that AC is misrepresenting the situation in order to reinforce how DY is town. +1 for DY and -1 for AC.

There's some interaction here with V where he disagrees at first but eventually agrees. Not sure how I feel about that.

Massclaims just brak the game and make them duller than dull. *shrug*

Tentative -1 for Regfan off this. Q really didn't like the idea of massclaim, apparently.

Yes I am, because it makes the game far more boring. I like how you jump on me when I'm not the first one to point that out.

Krazy was

Q takes an irrational position and tries to explain it as sheeping off a player he has consistently characterized as, if not irrational, then driven by purely personal feelings in the game. Personally, I would give this a -1 to Krazy, but then again I'm not really in a position to do that, being myself.

vote Xtomx

Top suspect right now. Never got a comfortable feeling from him. A brief summary from my end of his posts:

I think Ythan might be scum because he was complacent. when he and krazy were blowing the thread up.
Oh wait, Yhtan wasn't complacent
Oh, Darth Yoshi Wagon, I want a ride!
I now feel DY is scum, though I already voted him, and the reasons are here and here. (Points to Abelcain/DY argument). But still.. I'm not going o really get involved. (wheels that wagon without pushing it)
Comment on Regfans game molasses inducing massclim discussion. Pretty much with the majority on mass claim = unwelcome at the least, and likely bad.
Posted 2 days ago to say ooh i haven't posted in 4 days. Darn, seemed like yesterday.... and __________
still no other post?

In retrospect this was the post that made me think that DY looked more townish after Q's flip, but on a reread I now see the opposite is the case, that a large part of Q's case on Xtomx was Xtomx's vote on DY. So this is actually another +1 for DY, as opposed to the -2 my shoddy memory took it to be.

So conclusions:

-It's pretty safe to say after Q's flip that Umbrage is obvtown.
-FMPOV Ythan looks slightly scummier.
-DY looks slightly scummier (contrary to my initial impression)
-V, AC, and SE all look slightly scummier but almost break even. [ note this is going purely off Q's interactions, not the impression of Umbrage being obvtown which will make these three players look slightly scummier on top of their interactions with Q]
-Regfan looks slightly more town (due mostly to Q's failreaction to the mass-claim idea, but this could actually go either way).

[Krazy]

I just needed to reread the Hider rules, ignore what I was saying I completely forgot the mechanics.

-Hide: every night, you may PM me with the name of someone who you want to hide behind. If that player is a member of the mafia or the vigilante, you will die. If the player you hide behind is targeted for a nightkill by the mafia or vigilante that night, you will die. If you are targeted for a nightkill on a night that you hide behind someone else, that nightkill will not affect you.

So yes, if the Hider Tracker tracked Iamausername to anyone other than Quaroth or CS last night, they need to out because that would be confirmed scum.

[Krazy]

If the hider tracker shows up with a name other than Q or CS, we have confirmed scum. How in the world is that irrelevant?

That was while I was assuming the death had to be behind someone who was shot, not just any scum. As I said, I forgot the mechanics and you should just ignore that post. But do as you please.

[Krazy]

I read Krazy's play as scum trying to stop discussion on the hider's target before it begins.

Really though, if the Hider Tracker tracked Iam to someone other than Q or CS, by the end of the day they're going to out that information. I don't see how some waffling about the rules at the beginning of the day is going to prevent that, so from my point of view, this is a pretty silly reason to vote me. But if you want to put your vote somewhere while you reread, be my guest.

[Krazy]

Ythan you haven't really commented on the flips yet, are you rereading or what?

[Krazy]

Yes, Ythan. When there's four flips and you give no reaction to any of them, I wonder what's going on. You never voted anyone other than the most obvtown player yesterday nor did you engage anyone or scumhunt. Your behavior this game has been pretty radically different from my last game with you, and I'm wondering what the hell is going on. Just because you were town before does not mean you're town now, despite how many times you curse at me or call me tunneling. I'm not sure if you're my top candidate right now or not, but you're much higher after Q's flip than you were before.

[Krazy]

Ythan, is Umbrage still your top candidate? If not, who is your new FoS? If you're going to QQ about me being a tunneler, how about you answer that? kthxbai.

[Krazy]

There is no reason to "discuss the flips" unless you actually have something to say about them.

This is a 21 page thread and we just got almost all of our hard information less than 24 hours ago. Why are you so fucking terrible at mafia.

Interesting juxtaposition. Are you saying you have nothing to add about the flips in the first one, or are you saying there's nothing to be gained about the flips? Or are you saying I haven't said anything about the flips?

Also, why do you continue to be so defensive and so reactionary? You were posting, you were saying nothing about three flips (four counting Xtoxm), and I don't see why you wouldn't have some sort of reaction or first impression.

Actually, Ythan, you bore me. Your constant deflection, your bitching about literally every question I ask you, and the simple fact that you actually seemed to have a remarkably similar strategy yesterday to Quaroth makes you fairly suspect in my eyes.

-Quaroth pretty clearly saw Umbrage as an easy lynch today so he got on that wagon.
-Quaroth saw Umbrage as an easy lynch yesterday and he wanted to get on that wagon then too.
-You posted a few questions for Umbrage, which you didn't think he answered with satisfaction, so you stuck your vote on him and didn't move it for the whole day.

There's three scum in this game, Ythan. If you thought it was Umbrage yesterday, I never really got a sense of who you thought the rest of his team was. When there were two wagons on players other than Umbrage, you saw both of those wagons as more or less absurd. I actually, dare I say it, think you were tunneling Umbrage yesterday.

And before you bitch about me not being able to support that, I literally just reread your entire iso. Yesterday, you FoS'd Umbrage (who is now obvtown), who you kept your vote on the whole day, occasionally sniped at Xtoxm (who is now confirmed town), and had your bitchfit when I asked you to actually contribute anything other than bitching about my policy lynch vote on you. So please, continue bitching about me tunneling. In the mean time, you literally fit any scumteam, since you have not FoS'd anyone who is not dead or who is not obvtown (or FMPOV is me), and furthermore like Quaroth made a lot of "hi I'm sort of active lurking/prod avoiding" posts, and more or less just generally didn't scumhunt very much. So:

Vote Ythan.

Bitch about me tunneling you. Just do it.

[Krazy]

^Not scumhunting, just scumplaining.

[Krazy]

Thanks Ythan. Going back to not responding to you again so as to not clutter the thread, since I've made my case for now.

[Krazy]

You know Ythan, I asked if you were rereading. You could have said "yes." Instead, you flipped your shit. Again.

I didn't say I would ignore you, I said I would stop responding if all you were going to do was scumplain. I explained that you were a top FoS for today anyway, and your constant deflection and overreaction has merely elevated you to the top spot for now.

To everyone else, I know you were doubtless exhausted from yesterday's blitz. But look at what happened as a result of that blitz: Quaroth spent half the early part of the day sniping at me about it, and meanwhile more-or-less used it as an excuse to completely ignore Ythan for the rest of the day. Ythan is, again, banally characterizing me as tunneling as a way to simply attack my character and deflect attention off himself, and further as an excuse to avoid active scumhunting. He wants to downplay the flips because he knows that he looks bad after Q's flip, and he's stalling and sandbagging because he doesn't know how to react to Q's flip.

Ythan, if you offer a substantive point, I will respond. If you attempt to mischaracterize me to the town, I will clarify. If you scumplain, I will not respond. I will not ignore you, because I don't ignore players. Thanks. I will try to prevent this discussion from turning into a slog for the town to read, but that does not give you permission to snipe at me without question.

[Krazy]

Wat

[Krazy]

[/color]

ConSpiracy, Town vigilante

,

has been killed night one.

Try to keep up Y.

[Krazy]

Question: Should the hider tracker claim today even if there is no information on scum? That will give us a confirmed townie for today, and give scum the WIFOM option of either trying to kill the last PR or the confirmed VT. If we wait, there's a chance the HT would be killed and we'll lose our chance at a lynch with confirmed town. Thoughts?

Any remaining power-roles should claim if pushed to L-1 and there is any likelihood there will be a hammer. We can afford a mislynch today, but not a mislynch on a power/unique role. That is the only reason the hunter tracker should claim today if he did not track Iaaun to someone other than Q or CS.

[Krazy]

Secondly, we are headed for a repeat of day 1. Everyone so far has simply posted their suspects from day 1. Krazy thinks Ythan is scummy. Ythan thinks I'm scummy. Vordark thinks DarthYoshi is scummy. It's the exact same fucking thing.

This isn't the same at all Umbrage. After Q's flip, Ythan's suspicion of you either implies Q spent nearly the entire day yesterday busing--on day one--or Ythan's suspicion of you is completely unfounded and doesn't make any sense at all. Meanwhile, my suspicion of Ythan, instead of, "why are you acting so different?" is now "why is Ythan acting so different, and why did Quaroth only interact with him insofar as he was willing to snipe at me for blitzing him?"

There's only so many interactions Q had yesterday:

-Insisted on being town, almost unquestioningly: DarthYoshi
-Implying people are either logical/smart or obvtown. These players were: Vordark, AbelCain, and CS. Although Q had very minor disagreements with V and AC, he eventually "saw their point" or something or thought their comments were "fair and deserved."
-Starting out implying people were logical/smart or obtown but then pointing out WIFOM in their points: Snake Eyes
-Sniped at occasionally and emphasized the "player dispute" nature of: Me.
-Spent nearly the entire day trying to get lynched and at the end planted the seeds for a lynch today: Umbrage
-Knew was going to flip town and didn't want to be associated with a town-flip lynch if he could avoid it: Xtoxm.
-Only interacted with insofar as he disliked the idea for a mass-claim: Regfan. (This ended up getting him into a bit of hot water); actually never even says this player's name in all of day 1.
-More or less ignored completely: Ythan

So the question is, who is more likely to be a scumbuddy:
-Someone that Q thinks is town (or at least agrees with almost every argument of).
-Someone Q wants to seriously lynch.
-Someone Q spends a few points distancing from or sniping at.
-Someone Q wants to ignore altogether.

In my personal experience, scum do not spend all day busing day 1. They also usually don't spend a lot of time buddying up to their own scumbuddies. Obviously, these are not hard and fast rules, only my personal experience, but for the most part I find they want to avoid each other as much as possible. They don't really want to be on the same wagon, they don't want to agree or disagree. They know their allies will support them, or bus them if need be, but they don't want a bus to look like a bus if it has to happen.

For me, Q's constant defense of DarthYoshi could go either way. For a scum to insist continually on someone being town is something that scum might do if they feel there's a pretty good chance the person won't be lynched that day. They can backtrack later. IAmAUserName seemed fairly convinced that DarthYoshi was scum, and having two town-flips (although really, only one case) certainly doesn't bode well for him. I can easily see DarthYoshi as Q's scumbuddy, but I can also see DarthYoshi as the subject of town-buddying, since he was starting to seem like less likely of a lynch than Xtoxm.

To me, the more suspicious people are the people who scum want to avoid completely or only have the most minimum of interaction with. I thought it was really irritating yesterday when Q would snipe at me and continue ignoring Ythan. However, since several other people also wanted to wholly blame me and also ignore Ythan (also DarthYoshi, incidentally), I was at the time just trying to ignore this trend from more than one player. Now that I know Q is indeed confirmed scum, I've reconsidered the possibility that there might be a reason other than simply disliking my blitz that he decided to only snipe at me and ignore Ythan; and moreso, that there might be even more in the way that Ythan has also avoided and ignored Quaroth throughout day1 (admittedly, Ythan seemed to be ignoring a lot of players day1, so... there is that).

Now there's also Regfan... now, TheBigLebowski obviously had almost no interactions with anyone, and Regfan joined pretty far in the day. So I guess I'm not as shocked that Quaroth had exactly 0 interactions with Regfan (other than getting in trouble for dismissing the idea of a massclaim; which wasn't actually an interaction with the player). This could be Quaroth wanting to push Regfan away from the massclaim idea but not really wanting to make a case against him or make either look too scummy... or it could be that Quaroth saw the idea of a massclaim that he wasn't ready for and the very prospect of "autowin" bothered him. In any case, Regfan has seemed otherwise more or less pro-town to me.

So again:
-Ythan has acted generally different this game than in my previous experience with him
-Ythan has been less interested in scumhunting. During the course of day 1, he only really poked three players, Umbrage, Xtoxm, and myself. Xtoxm is confirmed town and Umbrage seems obvtown after Q's flip.
-Q wanted to snipe at me for blitzing Ythan, but did not actually engage Ythan himself in any substantive way through the entire day
-Ythan also had only the bare minimum of interaction with Q
-Ythan continues to easily fit into pretty much any scumteam, other than one with Umbrage.

Q might not have been the most super-active player, but he did give some interaction or some read, and sometimes even took a stand on every player in the game except two: Ythan and Regfan.

Why backpedal out of why you thought someone was town, if they somehow flip scum, when you can simply ignore the player altogether?

[Krazy]

But if the HT claims, then not only will be have a confirmed townie for today's lynch, but the HT will be likely be targeted for the night kill, meaning that the Psych/Det is guaranteed safe another night. If the scum kill someone else, then we have a confirmed townie for tomorrow as well.

Whereas if the HT doesn't claim, it could be killed tonight, and we'd lose the chance to have a confirmed townie.

Since the HT now has no powers, I don't see the harm in sacrificing. We gain a confirmed townie for today, and lose nobody important tonight.

"and we'd lose the chance to have a confirmed townie" ... what? If the HT gets killed tonight, then we still have their FoS from today. We can reread. The benefits of having a "confirmed townie" for one day where we have a mislynch doesn't help us that much. Whereas, if the scum kill a Vanilla Town tonight, we would have the Hider Tracker for tomorrow. Then, since it would be mylo, the Hider Tracker and the Investigator/whatever could both claim, and then there would either be cross-claims or two modconfirmed town.

If we lose the Hider-tracker tonight, we lose the second of two remaining unique/power-roles. There are two scum left. That means, if the Hider-tracker dies tonight, then one of the scum tomorrow can cross-claim investigator and then at mylo, we would have no clears at all. Whereas, if the Hider-tracker and the investigator lives to tomorrow, we would have one clear role for mylo, since if the scum tried to cross-claim both hider-tracker and investigator, then all the remaining vanilla-towns would be clear.

Optimal play I'm pretty sure is for the Hider Tracker to claim today if he has confirmed scum, or if there is a cross-claim for Hider-Tracker (since we have a mislynch, a crossclaim would be actually fantastic for the town). Otherwise, unless he is pushed to L-1 and is the candidate for a lynch, the Hider Tracker should continue playing like a Vanilla Town.

I don't understand why the HT would be targeted for an NK. With the hider dead, the HT is a VT for all practical purposes. By targeting them they reduce the chance of hitting a PR to zero.

I think the HT should claim if he has a name that isn't among the dead. I think the HT should

not

claim otherwise. Keeping the HT in the pool means

less

of a chance of the Mafia hitting a PR tonight.

You're kind of assuming the scum will favor killing the investigator/whatever over controlling the number of unique roles/modconfirmed town, but ultimately I agree with your conclusion so whatever. In either case, the Hider Tracker outing now gives the scum the power to choose whether they value killing a unique role, or whether they value trying to hit the investigator. The closer we keep our cards to our chests, the less power the scum have.

[Krazy]

@ Krazy: You had a posting war with Ythan at the start of the game, and tunneled on him for most of day 1. I simply can't take your case on him seriously now. You could have found scum, but I can't be convinced. You've simply been pushing this lynch from your very first post. You've been pushing it before Ythan even showed up. So I think it's far more likely you're letting your own agenda take over. You said that Q didn't mention Regfan either, but you don't focus on Regfan. You focus on the person you've been focusing on all game. You might honestly think you've found scum, but I can't take your position seriously.

So don't sheep me and rely on me to find scum, find some yourself then. Do you seriously think Ythan is town, or are you just so annoyed at my blitz on him that you want to ignore him? What's going on there? Half the time you get us confused and the other half you're enraged at me "bullying" Ythan. The blitz was weeks ago in real life now, Umbrage. Clearly Ythan still wants to characterize any prodding of him as tunneling, but just because I blitzed him does not mean I'm not going to list him as my top FoS now, which he is, or ignore him now, and neither should you.

[Krazy]

Okay, are Krazy and Ythan going to do this fighting thing every day?

Quaroth also liked downplaying my case on Ythan during the blitz as a personal dispute. You sure you want to play that card AC?

[Krazy]

Wow, alright a lot happened in that night. I'm going to need to re-read Quaroths lines later. I've got to do a few massive catch-ups in other games today but should have a post up by tommorow afternoon. I've got a few questions for everyone to answer while I catch up:

1) Do you think Iamusername hid behind mafia or vig?
2) Does Quaroths scumflip make you think anyone is more lilely to be town/mafia?
3) Who's your largest suspect as of now?

P.S. Regfan stop being scummy and answer your own questions first.

[Krazy]

Ythan, that's the second time today you've made a post explaining your read on a dead. player. Iam was the Hider.

[Krazy]

Considering that you're the only person who thinks Umbrage is obvtown this is a little silly.

I was the one saying Umb. was obvtown Y. Not even going to add a snarky remark this time.

OH COME THE FUCK ON. I was doing some work while I wrote my post, and I timed out from being logged in and lost it. There wasn't a whole lot, so I can try to repost most of it, but I'm not going to try to redo that entire thing again.

I hate it when that happens. That's why I ctrl+a then ctrl+c before pressing submit.

@Regfan: I looked over Snake and Quaroath's interaction today... and found surprisingly little. They rarely interacted, and the few interactions they had with each other seemed to be either simple questions thrown innocently at each other or a few negative comments. There's not a whole lot there to go on because they rarely interacted - on one hand, they could have been trying to keep a distance between them, but it seems to me more like they were just never really involved in the same conversations in the thread. It doesn't help that neither one was the poster boy for thread activity, even though they're not slouches, but compared to how active people like Umbrage and Vordark have been they didn't spend a whole lot of time involved in the same topics at the same time (if someone can point out a time when they

were

and still didn't talk much, please point it out to me, as I did this analysis by looking at their ISOs).

You thought Quaroth had surprisingly little interaction with Snake Eyes over any other player? Not Ythan? Not Regfan? Not Vordark or yourself? Also, unlike most of those other players, the few interactions Quaroth did have with Snake Eyes usually involved him calling SE out for some WIFOMy argument. Are you taking this to be early distancing or what? Also, do you think Snake Eyes is scummy outside of Quaroth's lack of interaction with him?

Next time you prompt someone

twice

to place a vote, don't bitch about when the vote was placed.

Perhaps DY shouldn't have had to provoke you into posting in the first place? Also, DY asking you to *vote* does not mean he cannot also question you about your vote and the rationale therein. You seem to be saying here that DarthYoshi shouldn't have asked you to vote, or shouldn't have asked your reasoning behind your vote, when really DarthYoshi should have been doing both of these things, as town or as anything else. Gotta be honest AC, this point is pretty scummy from where I'm sitting.

[Krazy]

Umbrage, actually the more scumhunting we do before a claim, the more information we may gain as a result of that claim. Furthermore, you're saying that it's all psychology and logic, and then saying that it's pointless to do anything other than claim. Isn't the point you're saying there is to claiming that the claim will help us scumhunt, which you apparently are saying we shouldn't do until there is a claim. Seems... problematic.

I actually also thought AC's plan was probably scummy, but actually after doing a few breakdowns it actually was at least marginally reasonable, since we would still have the mislynch tomorrow should the scum hint a PR tonight. But an issue is the 1/3 chance of hitting a PR/unique role tonight.

But back to the main point, Umbrage, you seem to be putting a lot of emphasis on the benefits of having a confirmed townie. Xtoxm, CS, and IAmAUserName are three confirmed townies. If you follow their remaining FoSes, shouldn't you be voting DarthYoshi or something based on IAmAUserName's case? What "chance" do we really gain from a confirmed townie?

I know you don't want to waste your time pushing someone to L-1 only to have them roleclaim, but that's part of the game man.

[Krazy]

I read Ythans misundertandig of who's dead/alive to be a dumb-tell in some rights, I don't see him making that mistake or attempting to act dumb as mafia, thus I read him as town at the moment.

And you are then presuming he would be dumb-telling as town? You should really look at his other games then.

[Krazy]

I'm saying he doesn't dum-tell as town, and I'd be happy to provide you examples of that.

[Krazy]

I'm not a huge fan of metaing a player, but since Regfan otherwise is going to use dumb-telling as a town-tell, I am going to show him why that should not be presumed to be the case.

Here is Ythan as town-sided:

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 89&start=0

Dr, you're scum. Your hop onto Net is disingenuous and your demand that he provide meta to dispute it as well. Beef, how can you suspect just me OR Net if the basis of your suspicion is that we're both scum?

Bullshit it's active lurking. Not every post devoid of content falls under that heading.

Characteristics: Direct, aggressive, and attentive.


Apparently I can't find Ythan as scum so here is Ythan as a third party:

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 1&start=25

Downplaying his lack of participation:

51:

Sorry about the spotty attendance. I think I missed where the Amish case became obvious. Post number?

Talking about dead players:

Don't try to deflect attention away from yourself, especially if you're going to do it wrong considering that I'm espousing a dead survivor.

Characteristics: Apologetic, distracted, interested in dead players more than the living.

In no game as town does he dumb-tell, but as third-party he will ask odd questions about the dead. So yes, Ythan dumbtelling as town is unusual.

[Krazy]

@Regfan, just looked at 576, and is there a reason you omitted Vordark from your list of reads?

[Krazy]

Vote: No Lynch

No lynching will give us the best chance of having two roles survive until tomorrow and probably getting us another PsyDet result. And tomorrow we should massclaim, so we can get two confirmed townies(or one if a PR dies). The main reason to no lynch today is that we can't trust PR claims if we mislynch today, and there's a 1/4 chance we would form a wagon on one of our PRs as well. It's better to no lynch now than in mylo, when there's still a good chance scum will hit vanilla.

Regfan ninja'd me on this, Snake, but I'd like to reiterate: Do you have any FoSes other than DY? Since RQS you have only commented on Umbrage, Xtoxm, and DarthYoshi. Q had to have had at least one other partner other than DY.

@Abelcain, the meta that Krazy provided doesn't hold that much ground, I just read through one of Ythans games where his play was highly similar to that of this game. That along with the previous games provided essentially show that Ythan is generally a very erratic player-style wise meaning previous games have no real meaning towards his current allignment: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 69&start=0

I didn't see him dumbtelling in that game. My meta post was meant to explain that dumbtelling is not a town-tell.

[Krazy]

I don't like how fast this NL wagon is going. I think it'd be productive to get a second FoS from everyone who hasn't given one yet. That would include AbelCain certainly, and Regfan I can't tell from your last post if AC would still be your #2 or not. And an update from Umbrage on who either of his top two FoS are would be nice. DY a second FoS would be nice from you too.

My top FoS remains Ythan, but I will go ahead and drop my second FoS right now as Snake Eyes. I don't like how he dropped off the face of the earth after the game got rolling with Umbrage as a top candidate, and I'm really not liking his day 2 with the somewhat sheepish vote on DY and the really sheepish NL. And I especially don't like his complete lack of interaction with more than half the remaining living game.

[Krazy]

Please do not hammer on NL. In fact I'd appreciate if someone would take it back down to L-2 by unvoting for now so that this day is not rushed.

[Krazy]

Doesn't this sound so ominous now:

Vordark, I will get to you either today or tomorrow.

Also, AC, did you ever throw out a second FoS?

Mostly want to hear back from Snake Eyes though, but I suppose he's V/LA now.

[Krazy]

I could have sworn I posted something just the other day... guess not.

Anyway, if no PR dies tonight, hunter tracker claims first. If we get cross-claims on hunter tracker, then Det/Psy doesn't even out tomorrow because we're lynching between Hunter Tracker claims.

[Krazy]

Snake Eyes' V/LA like just ended. If he doesn't post by tomorrow, he's probably getting replaced and I guess just hammer the NL then.

[Krazy]

Vote No Lynch

[Krazy]

I'm here and not cross-claiming.

Was Ythan softclaiming a guilty on Umbrage, or voting obvtown to appear less appealing as a night-kill choice? Excuse me as my brain melts out of my ears at the potential wifom there.

P.S. if you haven't played with Pod Person before, he usually takes the avatar and the "location" of the player he is replacing. Not sure if he'll do it this game, but just a heads up.

[Krazy]

Everyone, even if you don't have a lot to say, please check-in and drop a post just to confirm that there aren't any cross-claims.

[Krazy]

I think that's everyone, the only risk being that pod person isn't caught up enough to CC.

[Krazy]

Wait, nevermind, still need Amrun too.

[Krazy]

So is this the point where I remind you all we could've made sure that the Detective lived another night?

And that's why you caved to AbelCain's No Lynch suggestion after something like two posts, that right?

[Krazy]

Amrun, I'm kinda surprised you didn't unvote right there, quite frankly. You're continuing to leave your vote on literally the one player in the game that cannot be scum.

[Krazy]

Amrun, what's your take on regfan?

[Krazy]

this is obviously a veiled attack on abel. more evidence for abelcain-town.

Perhaps, but that was something like the weakest attack in the history of attacks. If it was an attack at all, honestly I'd read it more like distancing. Even you admit how confusing and convoluted that thread of the conversation was.

[Krazy]

pod person, just wondering, why would you replace into a game if you think it's too long to actually read all of it?

[Krazy]

I'd like to see your Vordark case, Amrun.

[Krazy]

As for Krazy…eesh. I REALLY don’t like how he has basically avoided commenting at all on either Amrun’s slip-up or Pod Person’s Quar-assocation arguments against him. Re-reading, I think the speculation about Ythan voting Umbrage is unhelpful, if Ythan were trying to crumb a Detective result, he did so really badly, because he took his sweet time voting Umbrage. Plus, the most recent two times he interacts with Amrun are to ask her fairly innocuous questions (what’s your Regfan read? What’s your Vordark case?), and at least with the Regfan query, I don’t think Amrun answers. All in all, Krazy’s D3 play has moved him from being a town read to a neutral read, if Amrun flips town, or a scum read, if Amrun flips scum.

Pod person is claiming I am scum because of how scum chose to interact with me without, as far as I can tell, reading a single one of my posts. I thought I would give him a chance to make a real case against me before I bothered to respond to his pathetic entry into the game, quite frankly. I didn't respond because it's not worth responding to, and pod person is either trying to scum up the thread or is fail-replacement. In pod person's world, Quaroath's attempts to buddy me are a damning scumtell, but Quaroath's attempts to buddy anyone else are not. His entire case is: Quaroath said you were town. My response: Yes, because he knew I wasn't scum. If pod person continues to tunnel me, I might start caring, should he ever make a case worth discussing at more length.

As for Amrun, you blitzed a replacement in a 25+ page game. Whether the blitz worked or not, several other players have already decided it's enough to convince them. If Amrun is going to get lynched, I want to see as much from the slot as possible, and a Vordark case and a read on Regfan were the two places I saw development the most productive.

Quite frankly, I thought your vote on Amrun was purely a reaction test. Once your reaction test was accomplished, I was expecting a bit more from you. You seemed to have AC as your top FoS for quite a while, what changed your opinion on that slot to so dramatically favor Amrun? I mean, you know you're getting killed tonight, and you're making it seem like you're done with D3 already. Pretend Amrun flipped and was magically janitored, so you don't know what the flip is: who is your top FoS after Amrun?

[Krazy]

What the fuck?

Amrun, we know for sure you are allowed to talk until the lynch scene is reached. So you can still post your Vordark case... bearing in mind the quickhammer, too.

[Krazy]

pod person, if you aren't scum you're a damn idiot, and if you are scum that was still just a frankly rude play.

Thankfully, I'm pretty sure at this point that you are scum and that was simply a blitz:

vote pod person

-CS FoSes Vordark, CS says he's going to "get" Vordark, CS dies n1.
-Ythan lists Vordark as his #2 FoS, Ythan dies.
-Amrun suggests he might make a case on pod, pod blitzes with a quickhammer.

He also goes out of his way to produce wifom:

associative tells are much more telling than standard scumtells. and association says that krazy and amrun are scum. i'm not going to bother looking past that.
both me and abel are terrible lynches, by the way.

He isolates one other player as town, knowing already that his quickhammer is on town, not scum.

also, amrun is at l-1.

vote: amrun

oops.

I've seen accidental quickhammers. This was not accidental. I've seen bad-hammers from town. This was not a bad-hammer. This was a blitz.

What does pod person have to gain from a blitz as town:
-fucking nothing, it's a total gamethrow

What does pod person have to gain from a blitz as scum:
-maybe he gets lynched today, maybe not
-Even if he does, all that happens then is that his partner goes into 3-way lylo with no clears. Scum wetdream right there.

And what's great, is that, even if town, I can't possibly imagine pod person hammering correctly in 3-way lylo [also, if he's town, it's VERY likely he'd get mislynched in 3-way], so even if he is town, this shit is over anyway.

[Krazy]

I don't need to smear you, you've already dug your own grave, I'm explaining that despite how you've been digging your own grave, that your suicidal behavior doesn't make you town.

both me and abel are terrible lynches, by the way.

You said this *after* the hammer. Yes, that is setting up wifom for *after you are lynched*. This is endgame wifom. "pod person wouldn't say that if AC REALLY WAS his partner... would he?"

i'm incredibly shocked that amrun flipped town

You're really, really bad at lying.

[Krazy]

Actually, part of me is extremely worried it's you + AC, regfan, since as a team you make the most sense. Honestly, if I wasn't pretty damn sure it was pod person, I'd be listing AC right now as my top FoS in terms of individual scumminess, with you as #2 reg.

But since it's pod person, he has to be extremely confident in the position of his ally. This makes me think it's either Umbrage or you. This wouldn't be the first time Ythan was dead right in both of his dying FoSes, as far as Umbrage is concerned, and I could see you reg largely because you, I think, have the most to gain right now based on pod person blitzing d3 and self-sacrificing today.

Right now though, I'm not completely certain who his partner is. This game is totally doomed, and pod person is scum. I'm not ruling anyone out as his partner.

[Krazy]

Good luck on scumming up the thread, pod, that's been your only contribution this game.

[Krazy]

i don't feel like quoting regfan anymore.

"The more I interact with other players, the worse the chances are for my ally in 3-way!"

[Krazy]

unvote

[Krazy]

Don't suspect pod any less, just need to decide how I feel about Regfan's vote and I'm a bit distracted right now.

[Krazy]

pod town + reg/AC scumteam = (nearly)impossible after the above voting state/post.

I now feel fucking fantastic about pod person lynch but will hold off re-voting for a bit as I think about other scenarios.

[Krazy]

So Umbrage + AC = improbable
regfan + AC = nearly impossible

We learned more in the last half hour than I think we learned the whole damn game up until now

[Krazy]

So FMPOV, only thing left is regfan + Umbrage for a team that doesn't include pod person.

[Krazy]

This is a post in which I do not hammer. Check it out.

[Krazy]

So pod person, if you get back before someone hammers you, I'd like you to think of this:

If I was scum, and you were town, I would have hammered you... well, this post.

To me, this suggests the best scumteam that is not you is Regfan + Umbrage.

So how do you feel about an Umbrage/Regfan scumteam?

[Krazy]

Abelcain, I know you're excited, but a short post where you don't hammer would be baws.

[Krazy]

AC, if me and Reg were scum together, I'd have hammered this post. Right here.

BAM THAT JUST DIDNT HAPPEN

[Krazy]

If I was town, I WOULD be worried about pod and me being scum together, so I'm not too concerned with Umbrage's last post.

Right now the concerns are: Regfan + Umbrage

vs.

pod person + someone else (still anyone, honestly, at this point)

[Krazy]

lol @ me if I just explained to AC that he could blitz

[Krazy]

Regfan, you're wrong, I die tonight to frame AC.

[Krazy]

HEY GUYS LETS SPECULATE ABOUT THE NIGHTKILL

MORE WIFOM WILL HELP LOTS TOMORROW

[Krazy]

PS AC that was baws how you just prevented pod from incriminating his ally, assuming the game isn't even over

[Krazy]

AC: "isn't it cool that we can keep talking until the lynch scene"

"(ps. please don't notice I hammered before pod had a chance to say ANYTHING USEFUL)"

[Krazy]

SCUM NIGHTKILL UMBRAGE HE'S OBVTOWN

(user will be lynched for this post)

[Krazy]

AC is like: Wait... wait... but which one do I kill?

[Krazy]

(P.S., AC, I've known it was you from the first three posts of D1, just wanted you to know <3)

[Krazy]

Dude, AC, we get it, you're scum. I know, Umbrage knows it, Regfan knows it. It doesn't matter which one you kill, you lost bro, it's over gg.

[Krazy]

Krazy, could you take a break from "LOL SCUM" and explain why you unvoted pod person AFTER it was determined that one of you had to be scum?

It wasn't determined, baws, Umbrage hadn't voted/posted yet.

Nice frame, though. <3 GOOD LUCK ON 3-WAY, ABEL, I KNOW YOU'LL BE THERE

[Krazy]

Abelcain yesterday:

Yes, Umbrage is right, the only choice is to follow the clear. Let me be the first to sheep DarthYoshi, because sheeping as quickly as possible is protown.

Abelcain today: Yes, Umbrage is right, his presumptuous chainsaws present flawless logic. Umbrage is, in fact, the savior of all mankind.

[Krazy]

Why didn't you guy announce the win during twilight? That was sort of random.

I had like 5 minutes before I had to leave, and I wanted to have flavor/etc.

[Krazy]

I wouldn't have voted unless I wasn't literally checking the thread every 10 seconds. All I did was turn off "showing online status." I was just ITCHING for someone to try a blitz. AND THEY FUCKING DID. It took me less than three minutes to unvote, DURING WHICH TIME UMBRAGE WAS TYPING A POST.

I had it down to pod person, or THE ENTIRE REMAINING SCUMTEAM, based purely on a lylo gambit. Yeah, maybe I shouldn't have had to rely on that, and I'm not sure I wouldn't have ended up voting pod person anyway, but fuck.

[Krazy]

Despite the claims and hammers and other shit, in my opinion town's main problem was with bickering. I get the feeling Krazy and Ythan could've won this game on their own if they cooperated. And the whole Abelcain/Vordark/DarthYoshi arguing back and forth meant Regfan and I could slip under the radar easily. Not to mention all the shouting I did D2 was one big diversion that worked better than could've hoped.

So, less bickering coupled with more perspective and we wouldn't have stood a chance.

Well, your WIFOMy RAGECAPSING every damn post was a serious distraction as well.

In regard to Ythan:

-I successfully identified that his play was significantly different this game than his play as a vanilla town. If he had been pushed to L-1 and claimed D2, then honestly I think town would have ended up lynching you, Umbrage. I had no way of knowing whether he was a town PR or scum; but as your own scum QT indicates, he was less appealing as a nightkill N1 as a result of my blitz on him. When the game started, I had no idea that Ythan played town PRs by dumbtelling+tunneling.

I honestly have no idea how Umbrage wasn't policy lynched D1. I am trying not to rage too hard this post, but all I can say is: Xtoxm. Umbrage passed over the surface of town players who literally just fucking gave up. This, quite frankly, was terrible. I was sort of thinking Umbrage might be town D1, mostly because I was worried the wagon on him came from too many players too unified too quickly to have EVERYONE on it be town, and even if it did I still wanted to look around for his team. I guess I fucked up there. At least I was right about his team though: one was in the lurkers and the other was a semi/active lurker. If Xtoxm had replaced out instead of SUICIDING, this would have been a very different game.

In short:

D1 had a terrible ending.
D2 was terrible.
D3 was terrible.

I know my hands are not clean of the issues in this game, but I think we can all agree it was pretty much just terrible.

[Krazy]

Why didn't you guy announce the win during twilight? That was sort of random.

I had like 5 minutes before I had to leave, and I wanted to have flavor/etc.

I meant Regfan and Umbrage.

[Krazy]

By this was a terrible game, I do mean we all played terribly; but thanks for hosting and putting up with our nonsense anyway imp, as you moderated it well

[Krazy]

Krazy

and

Ythan,

please don't play games together anymore. Your personal problems cause a lot of distractions, regardless of your alignments. I feel like you both could've played a lot better if you weren't dealing with each other so much.

I actually respect Ythan quite a bit, and would much rather play with him again than some other players from this game whom I won't name at the moment. I don't think he should spend so time much downplaying my position as "awful tunneltown" when I've correctly assessed that he's not a VT, but I do think that his reads are generally pretty good.

[Krazy]

Well, Ythan, at least you were alive while I was tunneling you, if I did.

[Krazy]

I'm glad your play this game was flawless, Ythan.

[Krazy]

Gee Ythan, why don't we pick a fight in the postgame? SOUNDS LIKE FUN.

I "tunneled" you day 1 which kept you alive until day 2.

As a result of my "tunnel" on you, you voted Umbrage, who was scum, and I voted TheBigLebowski, who was scum.

As a result of suggesting we look at lurking players, AbelCain voted Quaroath, who was also scum.

Instead of pursuing a case on Umbrage that would be compelling, you chose to deflect any prodding that came from me. As a result of your deflection:
-Umbrage, shockingly enough, wasn't lynched.
-You pretty much outed yourself as a power role, since your town-play made no sense.

I wouldn't say I was tunneling you because my view of other players had nothing to do with you. However, by presenting myself as tunneling on you, I drew out lurking players who took the opportunity to snipe, including both Quaroath and TheBigLebowski.

Ythan, you got yourself night-killed this game as a power-role, pretty much because you were obviously a power role. Your weak as shit case on Umbrage had absolutely 0 traction and you presented it poorly. You want to point fingers? I would point mine at other players before you, but you sure can't wash your hands clean here.

But yes, I'm deflecting, because I'm really so worried about my play/image here after outing the entire scum team in 5-way lylo.

[Krazy]

Why are you calling me out if you don't want a fight?

Oh, it's because "someone's deflecting." I guess you were right after all.

[Krazy]

Duplicity, the bickering was always pointless. It's just because we're lovers, don't you know?

Want to guess which one's the pitcher and which one's the catcher?

[Krazy]

I'm already in another game with Ythan, didn't you know he's one of the many heads of Triglav?

<3

[Krazy]

Gaiz, seriously, me and Ythan are best buddies.

ferrealz

[Krazy]

Well, at least you don't think I'm crazy anymore. That was just downright confusing!