camn's temperamental - Mini 1232 - GAME OVER

[Twistedspoon]

el confimé

[Twistedspoon]

Hiya
Of course it's nice to see my old compadrés, Haylen, johog, BB, etc.
Nice to meet the rest of the cast too of course :3

looking at BB's questions:
1) I've played a lot of MS games. I discovered mafia through smogon and then emigrated here at the end of last year. I can't stand chat mafia. I've played about 8 newbie games, 3 large games and 20+ of the mini and open games on MS. i've recently been cutting back on games and hydraing to improve my quality of play. I may be busy at the start of september as my 6th form term begins and such but hopefully this can be prioritised.
2) I would crumb my result and try to get the player lynched, but would not claim if I knew there were more scum to get. Crumbs are just as good as it's good cop protocol to crumb results imho. (that being said I've never been a cop expect for one time i was quicklynched d1 in a newbie game :s )

^you have an awesome username :3

clearly parama is playing RBS, Random Buddying stage

VOTE: parama

and in retrospect i realise you asked for a vote anyways, so here you are

People still believe in that stuff?

it works as well as anything for rvs though

[Twistedspoon]

His vote for Parama gives an actual reason (buddying), which he then immediately undermines by saying he's voting because Parama asked for a vote.

it's not undermining, it's an addition (hence why I said in retrospect)

conflict doesn't matter anyways; It's RVS. Who develops conflict over an RVS vote?

[Twistedspoon]

@Spoon: what I mean is that the first of your reasons seems semi-serious, and the second thrown in to make it clear your vote is totally random. And serious votes early in the game develop conflict.

i am of the opinion that no vote is truly random in RVS. Most of my random votes seem semi-serious but they're still random votes in RVS
if I'm to vote anyone it will be for something with a micron of suspicion, but still a random vote if that makes sense

the second part was just an observation which i found interesting and decided to include

[Twistedspoon]

catching up now...

[Twistedspoon]

for one to catch up we must look... deep inside ourselves...

deeper...

introspective...

Oh and no reason for Fishy to be lynched this early, not in my opinion anyway.

UNVOTE:

@BBmolla
Yes. Also, how do you know that Fishy would be lynched?

-Misder

I don't. But having five votes on someone on page three doesn't seem like a good idea to me. Not enough info yet.

not sure about this. Chair does the right thing here by questioning BB but BB seems to dislike RVS wagoning for some reason. If one of them flips scum I guess the other could be a likely partner from this.

parama's #58 is sound and makes a lot of the points I would have made (except the ones about me obv)

It wasn't that serious of a vote. It was to put some pressure on Fishy, which clearly is already being done by four others.

so what was wrong with more pressure?

it's the usual for scum to be able to talk during pre-game

I did not know that.

unvote

really? It's not uncommon at all

No, because my mother isn't as important as a mafia game.
I am pursuing a lead, simple as that. Who knows, I

*may* change my mind later on

, but if you're scum like I think you are, that seems unlikely to happen.

Why would you do this? I mean, you're so sold on me being scum, why could you possibly change your mind on me?

this is a good find, but personally I don't think it's that great of an escape clause for parama. If he wanted to back out of a wagon at soem point, there are better ways of doing it than saying 'I may change my mind'

It wasn't that serious of a vote. It was to put some pressure on Fishy, which clearly is already being done by four others.

Parama are you willing to bet on your mother's life right now that I am scum? Why or why not?

Unvote. Vote:BBmolla

your post seems to me like scum cracking under pressure

you should have more to say from 75 posts. Might let you off because you say it's your first forum game though.

Fishy's #78 makes good points about Luc, a player who I am terrible at reading


looking at this quote

His vote for Parama gives an actual reason (buddying), which he then immediately undermines by saying he's voting because Parama asked for a vote.

it's not undermining, it's an addition (hence why I said in retrospect)

conflict doesn't matter anyways; It's RVS. Who develops conflict over an RVS vote?

I agree with this, and Fishy's poor attempt at finding scum fails.

and the rest of your post, how do arrive at this below conclusion on fishy from this quote? The two seem contradictory

Parama and Fishy is most likely town, Zang and BBmolla is scumspects.

Zang is very much defending spoon and BB.

zang never mentions me iirc

the rest of this post has a good find though.

C'mon Zang, I know you're not new here. Vote Count Analysis. The stigma that comes with being on a mislynch wagon. Sneaky scum like to push wagons that they aren't joining, though usually that helps town catch them more than anything.

Yes, but it's not a scumtell to try and prevent a mislynch.

this early? wagons are more for pressure at this point

Scummy =/= scum

parama explains my thoughts on this quote well in #94

the number of players who don't know about scum pre-game talk is bizzare

Since when? I've been in several games with and without it.

I have personally yet to see a game where pregame talk was not allowed, and your claim is a bit surprising to me.

this.
It's usually a good thing when other players have my thoughts in early game. little has developed so town mindets are often most similar at the start of the game as there are less things to consider

in post 76: the point on panda is well made. If BB flips town then panda needs a serious looking at for a very opportunistic and badly explained vote. However the newbie mindet is to sheep the biggest wagons, so this must also be considered.

in this post BB asks me my opinions on his wagon. I'd say some of the votes are shaky. Parma makes the best case, but chair and panda's votes are blatant sheeping. Not scumtells in themselves, especially since chair was asked to sheep, but they should be considered if you flip town
Kanye's vote on you was sound i thought. you don't have to be completely sure a player is scum in RVS to vote them and unvoting or not voting in RVS is usually scum playing it safe imho.
In conclusion I think your wagon will certainly have scum on it if you flip town. Most likely not parama or kanye though.

also when the votes started coming to you, you use a bet on paramas mother's life which i think is really scummy

is it?
I thought he was just saying do you really think I'm scum in a more interesting way. It wasn't AtE the way I read it

Scum can't tunnel - they know the answer.

they can fake it though.
But i see your point here

VOTE: zang
Is playing very cautiously. His fishy unvote was never explained and he has no vote atm.

ninja: sath takes a couple of my points on panda and fishy. good stuff

[Twistedspoon]

you should still vote someone to apply pressure ans stuff

I can link you to games where mafioso refrained from voting D1. it's not an uncommon scum tactic

[Twistedspoon]

though where has twisted disappeared to recently

*waves

I'm still here :3

[Twistedspoon]

Yes. Self meta.

self meta is bad as the player can be as selective as they want usually :/
that being said I don't find johog particularly scummy on meta. He does often use gut as a reason as town iirc.

It's called Doublethink.

that just struck me as an awesome name for a hydra

Does the above sound like Parama's meta to anyone? I've never played with him so I wouldn't know. It's the only plausible explanation I can find.

I always read parama as aggressive town. this game is no different really

in my 4 or so games with him I never remember actually lynching him though. The only times he died i remember with him were through a vig kill or his own scumbuddy killing him (lol)

[Twistedspoon]

Does anyone want to hammer?

not really

pereg hasn't caught up yet and I still find zang a preferable lynch at this moment in time

[Twistedspoon]

Fishy and Kanye have got the correct answer quite fast. Have a gold star.
But yes, Kanye is correct. Unless scum roles have explicitly anti-town role names there seems to be little use for a namecop, and it is even harder to conirm one

I was never on the BB wagon anyways. I have prefered a zang lynch over BB for some time now

Panda still looks suspect. Both his votes onto and off of the BB wagon look poor

[Twistedspoon]

"In post 183,

i was obviously pressuring BB with my vote on him

not really. you said BB was "scum cracking under pressure" and then kept your vote on him to BB's L-1 which is more than a pressure vote
In post 183

unvote was because of his roleclaim and i did admit inexperience when fishy explained why BB's roleclaim didn't matter .

like kanye and fishy say, you can't unvote purely because of his claim.
and inexperience isn't a free pass anymore

[Twistedspoon]

RL is crazy and terrible right now

I'll try and get a catchup done for some point but right now I have harder things pressing down on me

[Twistedspoon]

very brief/premature catchup

panda looks more town in #270 - #290. I might have been wrong about him
kanye & Fishy are town
chair I have trouble reading, but I always do with implosion.
peg seems logical enough but it might be organised IIoA I'm mistaking for townieness in this case. Might need more from him
Parama has just been suicidal if he's scum. One of BB and parama

should

be scum (this is camn mod though. I wouldn't put setup wifom past her tbh) and a town flip from one should confirm the other as mafiosi. The converse also appiled (in other words a scum flip from one makes the other town)
so now we know 2 players, one of which is certainly scum. It's as if we've lynched 0.5 a mafiosi already I guess. I'm more willing to let parama go first although I don't think it matters tbh. We lynch scum either way and I still find the PR itself weak and unreliable. BB just feels more genuine to me than parama I guess. However parma does make some good analysis points and is an asset to town assuming he isn't scum. I could be persuaded either way as to who to lynch first I guess.

[Twistedspoon]

@BB: were we to lynch you and then parama afterwards would you be satisfied as there is near-certainly a mafiosi in one of you due to 2 cops being bizzare (obviously parama first would be more preferable though for you, but I'm not asking about that order)

in other words would you offer yourself as a sacrifice to confirm parma as scum for tommorow (assuming you are town)

[Twistedspoon]

If mafia did this and I was lynched, I'd obviously flip town, getting them lynched. A one for one trade in this setup makes no sense.

i don't find 2 flavour/name cops making sense either

and since when did scum make sense?
as scum I've claimed doc in a setup where a doc has already claimed. 2 protective roles make no sense; but scum don't think strigath and act on the spur of the moment

I'm sure parama had to find some justification for tunneling on you so hard as well. A role inconsistency is a fine card to play
this reaction that you have now might be exactly what scum were looking for too (assuming you are town)
2 cops is always wrong. CC'ing cop isn't. It's wifom

if you're town parma is scum. same for parama town

[Twistedspoon]

Alright I'm fine with being lynched today, please when I flip town don't auto assume Parama is scum as I'm not sure that's the case.

this is the last thing scum would say in this situation

1) that they're fine with being lynched
2) that they at least don't want to bring a townie down with them

call it wifom, but it's true

[Twistedspoon]

Unvote

parama is town
bb is also probably town
it's probably a "defy the meta" type move if camn put in both their roles as town

We need to reassess this...

Occam's razor

nifty little tool

use it and you'll see one is scum. BB feels genuine to me but if his flip confirms parama as scum to me then so be it

2 cops is just plain broken imho

[Twistedspoon]

@Twisted: And how would the last thing town would say differ?

Also, keep in mind, we're flavor cops which debateably has the usefulness of a VT.

still, 2 flavour cops should not exist. One would counterclaim the other and cause 2 myslynches for town. This should not happen

also, scum rarely volunteer themselves for the lynch, and in the rare instances they do, they don't do it without gaining anything at all for their side (in this case taking down the other claimed cop). This is why I'd perhaps find you the more likely cop than parama were one scum (which I still think)

[Twistedspoon]

Your reasoning is incorrect Twistedspoon. There is nothing wrong with there being two of the same role. Unless the setup explicitly states there cannot be two of the same role then assuming such on day 1 is a poor assumption.

link me to a mini with 2 cops and I'll be convinced and there will be no further objections because I'm not seeing it

[Twistedspoon]

Your reasoning is incorrect Twistedspoon. There is nothing wrong with there being two of the same role. Unless the setup explicitly states there cannot be two of the same role then assuming such on day 1 is a poor assumption.

link me to a mini with 2 cops and I'll be convinced and there will be no further objections because I'm not seeing it

Did you know that a name cop and a real cop are two completely different things?

they still are investigative roles

[Twistedspoon]

then I shall hold out for your reason (although the other vote on me hasn't been explained either)

[Twistedspoon]

tricked into playing a psycology themed game....

anyways, I'll play 2 cops. I may have been convinced

[Twistedspoon]

well it was only reasonable to assume there were not 2 cops. I had yet to see a setup with one

now is that 3 unexplained votes on me? I'll admit my activity had been poor so I could understand if that was the reason.

[Twistedspoon]

I'm scum because i had difficulty in seeing 2 cops?

[Twistedspoon]

well it looks either me or BB going down today (the deadline is very close and NL is bad) and I know I'm confirmed town so;

VOTE: BB

[Twistedspoon]

if it's either me or BB then BB goes any day

I know I'm town. I don't know he is

[Twistedspoon]

besides, deadline is a few hours away

were you seriously wanting a NL?

[Twistedspoon]

VOTE: parama

need i continue?

[Twistedspoon]

parama can claim his result but that doesn't remove the possibility of him being scum cop (or just mafia with chair but probably unlikely)

I'm not fussed if he result claims.

[Twistedspoon]

VOTE: Twistedspoon
Still not entirely sure why I think he's scum, but hey, lets see where this wagon takes us. It could be an interesting ride.

awful reason

I'd vote you if i wasn't already positive parama was scum

most people voting me haven't said why at all though. This wagon has some serious scum on it

[Twistedspoon]

Twisted why are you voting me BTW? At the end of yesterday you said you could see two cops... yet now you're voting me so...

i thought i could but then the flip woke me up and i realised 2 cops was bizzare again

I'd join a chair wagon were one to emerge though, unless there is a particular reason why 'champion' is town-aligned

[Twistedspoon]

voting a dead player?

Hey Haylen, are you SK? Cause even mafia wouldn't have drawn attention to themselves like that.

Post 123 Iso 5
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p3397221

Most of this post is just him basically taking everyone else's posts and agreeing with them.

blatant misrep

[Twistedspoon]

you don't like my hammer yesterday?

so in a position where either you or BB was going to be lynched who would you have chosen?

[Twistedspoon]

What kind of question is that Spoon? Haylen was never a real lynch candidate yesterday, was she?

You

was though.

that's exactly what I'm saying

if you were in my position would you let yourself be lynched or BB?

[Twistedspoon]

voting a dead player?

Hey Haylen, are you SK? Cause even mafia wouldn't have drawn attention to themselves like that.

Post 123 Iso 5
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p3397221

Most of this post is just him basically taking everyone else's posts and agreeing with them.

blatant misrep

What about the rest of Chair's case? Are you going to ignore it or are you going to defend yourself?

chair is entitled to his opinions

but they are just that

[Twistedspoon]

What kind of question is that Spoon? Haylen was never a real lynch candidate yesterday, was she?

You

was though.

that's exactly what I'm saying

if you were in my position would you let yourself be lynched or BB?

Oh nevermind then, I thought you was talking to Haylen.

well i was, it was the same analogy

anyone would have done what I did in my position

[Twistedspoon]

i thought one of them was scum
I still do

I was happy with a BB lynch so why not hammer/lynch him so we have conf.scum parama tommrow if he does flip town?

[Twistedspoon]

@Twisted at the end of yesterday you seemed to think the existence of two cops was a real possibility then today you voted Param without explanation, what made you change your mind?

see post #471

Like I've said, the BB flip woke me up and I realised I had been deluded to believe in 2 cops and that small glimmer of ignorant optimism is now gone since BB has flipped town

[Twistedspoon]

2 watchers is different to 2 cops

although I do see where you're coming from with this double mechanic thing (even if the claim was uncalled for). Maybe it matches the psycology theme and is like a split personality theme or something. I don't know

going to sleep now. May change my vote tommorow. Still thing 2 cops is very broken though (perhaps even more so with 2 watchers)

[Twistedspoon]

actually, why can't there be 2 flavour/name cops but one of them a scum cop?

that keeps with the double roles theme and doesn't make the setup skewy

[Twistedspoon]

fine, so let's lynch him now if name cops are overrated

[Twistedspoon]

chair is entitled to his opinions

but they are just that

So. your not going to even bother to defend yourself?

Unvote
Vote: Twistedspoon

is it scummy to not defend myself?

interesting theory here

[Twistedspoon]

I guess it's claim time unless we're lynching parama?

[Twistedspoon]

I am the inventor

I can give powers (inventions) to players during night phases. I do not know what they are. Last night I targeted fishy with my ability. He can confirm that he received an invention and the power that it has

[Twistedspoon]

Fishy will be able to prove my role/innocence

I gave him the invention last night. If it's a nice pro-town invention then all should be well. Scum shouldn't have a role that harms their own wincon

If it's anti-town power, like miller, then the mod's having a good time playing mid games and I guess it wouldn't be completely unreasonable to assume I was a mafioso inventor giving out anti-town roles (I'm not though)

[Twistedspoon]

it doesn't say, it just says that it will give the player a power (invention)

I had expected you to know about it though.

[Twistedspoon]

if I'm a scum inventor then why did i try to get you to claim your effect?

If I'd tried to give you a bad effect then I'd have been obv-scum

My theory is I was RB'd.

besides, NKs are wifom

change my mind about name cops? It was only for a brief moment that i accepted the possiblity of there being 2 town ones, before the flip made me realise again how daft that seemed

parama is scum

[Twistedspoon]

. Unless there's a breadcrumb I've missed (@everyone: look for such a crumb, please), the only person Sath was threatening was you.

if I was making the NK as scum it'd have been kanye anyways. He suspected me as much as sath and was a stronger town read. Sath was the the only person wanting my lynch



let's look at it like this

a) I'm either an inventor or not an inventor

if I'm not an inventor then I wouldn't have been able to claim that I gave fishy a power and expected him to have one. Thus my claim would have been unprovable and imminent lynch. Therefore I have to be an inventor

b) I'm either a scum or town inventor.

As a scum inventor I would not be giving out pro-town goodies so therefore asking you to claim what power you received would do more harm than good.
Thus I'm a town inventor

[Twistedspoon]

@TS- can you explain why you're not scum by defending your posts? Also, reads (past the parama scum)? Also, if you want to make analysis on parama being scum, that would be nice, cause all I'm seeing right now is that BB flips town --> parama is scum, which really isn't that legitimate tbh.

panda is probtown
peg is null/town
haylen/johog leaning scum
kanye town


more later perhaps

[Twistedspoon]

why did you choose fishy to invent?

he was/is a top town read of mine

@spoon: problems in that claim analysis -

a) If you are (say) a Mafia Goon, it's not clear that claiming something confirmable and which doesn't get confirmed is a bad thing. Your claim

is

unprovable, and you

haven't

been lynched.
b) Bigger problems (for me) - you could be scum inventor who invents bad things. You even acknowledged the possibility that you invented bad things in you claim post - maybe as a preemptive defence for when I claimed that you'd invented me something bad. You could be a scum inventor who invents good things - particularly if you know the invention isn't that exciting, inventing a townie something good puts you in a very town-looking position at a time when you were vulnerable.

I don't see this claim as one that makes you obvtown at all.

if i invented bad things then i wouldn't have claimed

I acknowledged that i could invent bad things (although i highly doubt it) as it's still a possibility and i like to cover all possibilities. Like you say, a scum inventor was possible (even though I can say with 100% certainty that I am not a scum inventor)

[Twistedspoon]

well I don't know if i invent good or bad things for sure, but I find it unlikely from my point of view as I am town aligned

I assumed by the word 'powers' in my role pm that my inventions are a good thing, but strictly speaking I do not know for sure

[Twistedspoon]

@Twisted do you know of cases where a town inventor creates bad powers? If not why would you feel the need to protect yourself from that?

I've never played with an inventor before, so I'm considering all possibilities, even though I find it highly unlikely that a town inventor would create bad powers

[Twistedspoon]

or town inventor. You missed that one...

[Twistedspoon]

If i wasn't an inventor (or did not target you) why would I think you could prove my claim

and if i did not invent god things (or think i did) same question

[Twistedspoon]

it's so obvious parama's scum...

[Twistedspoon]

parama and peg are scum...

gg

[Twistedspoon]

surely if I was fakeclaiming I would have provided a fake list then?

[Twistedspoon]

you made an account to play newbie games?

anyways parama needs to go. I'll make a case now.

[Twistedspoon]

just realised that was a hammer

>_>

[Twistedspoon]

well that worked out well :p

I knew no-one could suspect parama of being scum the way I hounded him after the first cop flip

[Twistedspoon]

I doubt we will be blowing TwistedSpoon's master scum manipulation methods, right?

eheh