The Children of Húrin Mafia (GREAT REVIVAL)

[Gut]

Vote: SpyreX

[Gut]

VOTE: Gut

After Invictus you should know better ....

I'm at least 9/5ths the man I was then.

[Gut]

To what extent must the events of the game match the book, gandalf? Order of deaths? Outcome? Get as specific as you can be.

P.S. Faraday, remember moderating at Goofbash? This is your chance to redeem yourself.

[Gut]

Page 4 lynch. Page 4 lynch.

You want to be quicklynched again, aye?

[Gut]

Hey hey, why don't all of you shut up with the role-related boringness and vote Spyrescum?

[Gut]

Okay, now that Gandalf has 'fessed up, as expected, can we lynch Spyspyscum?

[Gut]

@Gut: Why is Spyspy scum?

Gut!

His play this game is a lot like his play in Masons and Mafia. Kanye, on the other hand, is decidedly more proactive. Spyspy is Today's lynch.

[Gut]

Tell your partner he's wrong.

Unvote, vote: Katsuki

[Gut]

UNVOTE, VOTE: VITAMINR

[Gut]

Nope. You'd better nightkill us because we've caught you fair and square.

[Gut]

Mod

, VC please.

[Gut]

SpyreX - 1 - gandalf5166
gandalf5166 - 2 - kanyeknowsbest, Sun and Moon
Furcolow - 1 - Andrius
kanyeknowsbest - 3 - PeregrineV, Will-o-wisp, mockingjaye

These votes are pointless and need shifting.

Unvote, vote: Katsuki

[Gut]

So Gandalf/Andrius is the same (or something), but no votes for Andrius?

Unvote.
Vote: Andrius

Fixed.

Okay, you could vote for either gandalf or Andrius and it'd be exactly the same except that voting for Gandalf would be marginally meaningful, so you're voting for

Andrius

. They say a townie's only weapon is his vote - well, I guess that's not always true then.

[Gut]

Unvote, vote: SpyreX

[Gut]

Meh, I don’t buy it. See dram’s latest Large Theme Atomic Mafia and look at DGB. She basically played to her ‘Town meta’ that was supported by ‘face-to-face’ interaction and replaced out under pressure. Tada what do you know … she was scum.

She didn't replace out due to pressure.

The pressure you generate is far less than the irritation anyhow.

[Gut]

She stopped playing across the board. It's abundantly clear that she didn't replace out due to pressure in that game.

[Gut]

No, she didn't, despite what her sig once said. A quick look at her threads would show this.

I'm well aware that she's playing in a game currently. That doesn't change the fact that she did stop even if briefly (and playing in a single game is still distinctly less than her normal activity; there's really no reason why her current level of activity would be incompatible with my claim).

I remember why I dislike CES now ….

Is it because I don't explain and call you out when you're being dense (e.g. "Hur hur, VitaminR is lying about which games of mine he read.")?

[Gut]

Going with the lesser evil. This game is stagnating.

Unvote, vote: Kanye

[Gut]

What's your read on Empking, Dekes?

[Gut]

More votes on Kanye, please.

Deadline's creeping up on us...

[Gut]

CONFESS!

[Gut]

Voting for Kanye counts as keeping up, just fyi.

[Gut]

I was going to try for a flashwagon on Will-o-wisp, but he looks townish too. *sigh*

Can't we just lynch Vitascum? Andrius?

[Gut]

Unvote, Vote: PereV

Suffer not lurkerscum to live.

[Gut]

hey mos did you know that dgb and katsuki are, in fact, two different people?

ludi, im definitely opposed to my lynch, sorry if that wasn't clear!

hey kkb did you know that the first and second quotes of that post were, in fact, about two different people?

The first one is about katsuki but it doesn't establish any meta. MoI falsely claimed that kats is on a losing streak as scum (I've played with him where he won rather recently), and even if it were true, the rest is just his conjecture. Frankly MoI is so annoying that I wouldn't blame anyone that replaced out for having to continuously deal with him.

dunno. Still waiting on someone to answer my meta question about Furc.

Its been a week since you asked that question, deadline is fast approaching, do the research yourself if it bothers you. Sitting on your ass watching the town do nothing isn't acceptable just because you asked 1 unanswered question that quite possibly no one has an answer to.

[Gut]

================[]
[]================

[Gut]

Huzzah!

[Gut]

Vote: VitaminR

Herodotus knows where it's at.

MAGNA

, can you be useful and join the VitRwagon?

[Gut]

Just my mere presence means I%u2019m more useful than your slot ever will be.

Pretty sure your "mere presence" discourages posting. You'd probably make for a pretty effective tree stump cult leader.

VitR made uncharacteristically many accusations (and not particularly good ones either ("slushy snowballs" if you get the reference (which you probably don't))). He's scums.

[Gut]

That's generally true, although I did get it right eventually on both occasions. Come on, I know better than to trust my gut here, but luckily I have

REASONS

this time.

Oh, and it was chamber who pointed me to the relevant post.

[Gut]

In case anyone had doubts, faradays comment about Reflexive CPR Doc's basically confirms that MoI is in communication with the seraphs. MoI can you ask them why they chose you to communicate with?

[Gut]

Agree with Spy. I see no reason to say no to an extra de facto town controlled kill. Added pluses here are that 1) Feysal's one of those players to whom helping the town comes naturally and 2) I see no reason why his win condition need be mutually exclusive with ours - odds are he'll win simply by surviving long enough.

As for scum messing with his kill, we'll cross that bridge when it comes to it. It's not like we won't know it when it happens.

Now can we lynch VitRscum?

P.S. you're right, Faraday, won't happen again.

[Gut]

MoI, does anyone other than you and the seraphs have QT access right now?

[Gut]

What do you think of kanye's recent activity, ooba?

[Gut]

I'm aware he's probably site-flaked. I just find it interesting none of the people on his wagon mentioned it.

[Gut]

I'm tempted to suggest Feysal shoot Furcolow overnight.

[Gut]

What's that search supposed to show? That he was posting elsewhere during N2?

Actually, now that I think about some more, the fact that he appears to have been forgotten about this game during the extended night phase suggests he wasn't talking in a qt.

Yeah, today's lynch should be VitR.

[Gut]

I want a Kanye lynch today. In addition to everything I said about him yesterday, I'd like to remind everyone that several people have stated something to the effect of that either Kanye or Feysal must be scum given the turnaround on the wagon yesterday, and no one really objected to that sentiment, and in fact, it seems to have been pretty much accepted. So, to be painfully obvious, Feysal is claiming 3rd party, and Furc is backing him up, so that would suggest that said scum is Kanye.

Nope! I think the turnaround was due to people thinking both wagons were silly. If there's widespread disagreement with the reigning wagons, things tend to be volatile.

[Gut]

ooba makes a good point about Sun and Moon.

Yeah, today's lynch should be VitR.

This is getting stupid. I'm having a hard time believing this is sincere. Is chamber even really there this time?

VOTE: Gut

After Invictus you should know better ....

I'm at least 9/5ths the man I was then.

[Gut]

CSL isn't smart enough to go for it and Amrun doesn't strike me as the type who'd go for such a tactic.

Kanye, do you have e-mail notification turned on?

[Gut]

Yeah, today's lynch should be VitR.

This is getting stupid. I'm having a hard time believing this is sincere. Is chamber even really there this time?

You know I wouldn't lie to our esteemed moderator.

Interesting that you find that more plausible than us being scum.

[Gut]

Now I'm not a monster nor a monster slayer but I thought that a hydra, not just having teeth, had multiple heads with multiple mouths that could make multiple words.

Why would one head sticking itself in the dirt trying to find china stop the other one?

Hydras need to maintain some level of consistency, this normally means inner hydra talking, so one head burring itself can torpedo the entire hydra, and by the time someone realizes they need to put up content on their own they can get quite far behind.

Whatever, it's not like I didn't consider that possibility. But thanks, CES. It's just that chamber wasn't part of the hydra last time (CES pretended he was) and that I'm surprised that chamber would have a strong scum read on me and be wrong about it (at least face-to-face, he's usually right). But I don't think he'd fake that as scum at all (CES might).

On a maybe too personal note, has anything happened recently to put you on edge? You seem uncharacteristicly non-charismatic.

I'm not -sure- you are scum. At goofbash I was using heavy meta cause we played so many games, if I was able to read you then that's why. I don't actually have a high confidence in my ability to read you in forum mafia, and what I've seen from you does take into consideration how you are in a general sense, but not really your meta, because frankly I don't know what your forum scum meta even looks like. Some of your earlier posts looked a lot like posts I myself made the first time I was scum after returning from a long hiatus. And that's largely what I'm going on.

Maybe you can help me feel better about some of it.

He might not be a bad lynch.

Why did you add that sentence?

You took all the potential for pressure out of it.. It's a minor thing, but it can be a scum tell.

I don't really agree with you on the theory here, but that aside, why did you even feel the need to defend this suspicion if it was as minor as you say? Why do you need to qualify it as minor? Why did you add "but it CAN be a scum tell"?

This is lazy and the town reads are a little too obvious to my mind:

Can town not be lazy? Are obvious reads inconsistent with being lazy? What was achieved by saying this?

Also,

FOS: mockingjaye

. That Kanye vote felt very convenient. You're making a post seem significant that actually isn't really to allow you to hop onto the Kanye wagon.

Why did you fos here? What do you feel fosing accomplished? Why not wait and let him make more mistakes if you felt your vote was better served on Lord Chronos?

Yeah, today's lynch should be VitR.

This is getting stupid. I'm having a hard time believing this is sincere. Is chamber even really there this time?

You know I wouldn't lie to our esteemed moderator.

Interesting that you find that more plausible than us being scum.

Heh. Your meta argument about S&M is good too.

Unvote, Vote: VitR

What's different between ooba and our meta statements?

Ooba
Show meta on lurker stance too

How strongly do you think context matters in a lurker lynch?

@MoI:

Which players do the Seraphs think are scum? If they aren't giving reads, make them. Presumably there is cause from them to hide town reads, but not scum ones.

[Gut]

context?
What do you mean
like if someone is active in games blahblah but avoiding game zap they are scum in game zap?

Let me rephrase. I think you question is useless air, why wasn't it.

[Gut]

Also, MoS, who had gained from ACTING like a jester in your mind? Gandalf.
What if he just has the wool pulled over your eyes in an epic WIFOM?

What does he stand to gain by getting himself killed?

Stop being dumb.

[Gut]

In re-reading I don't particularly like 1106 from Gut, as it serves as an unspoken case on VitaminR.

1. Chamber says cases are scummy and he recently (Box Office Mafia) says he should be lynched on site for posting one. Yes, I know Chamber is only have the hydra...

2. I don't remember ever posting like this in the past at length.

1. I really didn't mean it to come accross that way, I just truely am curious how he will respond. (and I think there is quite a big difference between what I did here and what I did in box office, compare the 2 side by side, night and day).

2. When we entered this game me and CES decided to try and play differently than our other Gut game together, and act as a united front. CES was doing nearly all the posting for the majority of the game. We've decided that the game is stagnating too much so to switch strategies. I say all this because it may help explain why I was slightly more verbose than usual, I had been holding it in.

PS: Stop using weird characters, it breaks my quote-by-selection.

[Gut]

P.P.S: Neighbour QT ME/CES/VIT were in together in goofbash mafia. It shows me interacting with VIT previously (I think its quite similar to here).

[Gut]

It is always optimal play to vig a jester rather than lynching them. Why the hell would you give someone the satisfaction of winning when they aren't town-aligned? That's retarded.

I don't care even the teensiest bit whether a jester wins or not - my goal is to win the game, not have others lose. (I also can't imagine winning as a jester is particularly satisfying.)

I'm certainly not going to let silly jester speculation distract me from playing the game.

Anyway, people should sheep Faraday's reads and vote for VitaminR!

[Gut]

Game relevant?

Of course?

[Gut]

Still think Kanye is town.

I don't know what this town has against lynching scum. VitRwagon is the only halfway decent wagon.

[Gut]

Get on VitR instead, ooba.

Andrius, you should just assume that you're Nienor. Nienor wouldn't get her memory back N1 (I have a theory as to gandalf's identity which is compatible with N1 role gaining.) It makes a lot of sense.

[Gut]

We are here to switch our vote if it comes to that. We'd rather see VitR hang though.

[Gut]

Why aren't we on the list? And why isn't Andrius on the "No real idea" pile due to his claimed amnesia?

[Gut]

Sorry if you flip town vit! You've successfully guilted me into oblivion, so well done if you are scum.

If we lose this, I blame the townies who didn't sheep me ..

It's only day 2, get over yourself.

[Gut]

How much expeirence do you have with town/scum Amrun Vit?

[Gut]

What do you think of the dekes post where he accidentily posted his reads and his reaction post to that?
What do you think of empkings hop on to your wagon?

[Gut]

Yeah, wraith is scum. Lets talk about less sure things with the time you have.

[Gut]

Why MoS town, in more detail? And can you scan WoW's iso for the town tells?

[Gut]

wraith, hero, mockingjaye, empking, 1 of {elli, espeo, WoW} Does that seem reasonable as a scum team?

[Gut]

Are you sure about mockingjaye? Somethings nagging me about her/him (In an I shouldn't be suspecting them way)

[Gut]

No, my predecessor wasn't scummy. He was just slowly flaking.

If VitaminR is town, then I'm willing to accept feysal's kill if that's what he decides. But I don't think there is reason to see me as the most suspect voter. Apparently you think I'm scum for:
a) voting you for a long time
b) voting you before I finished reading

As for (a), why would I not be a townie whose case others (Empking, etc.) sheeped?
As for (b), you weren't at L-x, so there was no danger from my vote if I decided to move it later. I wanted to start taking stances before I finished reading. There's no scum motive for that.

Why are you trying to convince a walking dead man that you are town?

[Gut]

What would be the use of expressing doubt, assuming I felt it? It would reduce my ability to lynch the person I thought was scum, for no gain except hedging against the possibility of you being town. Sounds like something that would benefit scum who know they are trying to get a mislynch, or who are bussing but might want to switch away.

Meta on this please.

[Gut]

You never showing doubt as town, you showing doubt as scum. You making that argument in a previous game that you were town in, or in MD.

[Gut]

Feysal, target?

[Gut]

Vote: Empking

[Gut]

Sorry MoI but you are the one thats dying here. If we have to lose a townsperson to your effect either way we should use the free death on it, not our lynch. (S&M's claim holds up well enough that I think they are town.)

[Gut]

- I know S&M is my brother Turin

Do you also know they're town?

P-edit: if I have the mechanics of that role right, Gandalf wouldn't've had the time to use it properly.

[Gut]

◦While no direct (or, as far as I can see, implied) lies to the players are involved, this is a game with distinct elements of bastardry.

I'm just going to quote this because I know someone's going to ask.

[Gut]

Ohhh hay look KKB with the correct result.

Today is absolutely not ending in anything but an S&M lynch and seriously, SERIOUSLY, anyone who is arguing that can become Feysal'd.

(Now aren't you glad Feysal is still around MoI)

LOL NO. We are giving in to lynching likely town just to save a slightly more useful town person? You do realize the scum get an NK then and we get no shot at actually lynching mafia? Lynching S&M here is a horrendous play.

@Amrun

Confirm with Plum that you are alignment confirmed masons. This is a bastard game.

[Gut]

Amrun, 'mason' meaning alignment confirmed mason is a relatively new thing. Plum and many of those in this game have been around long enough to remember when that wasn't the case, so we are just trying to be careful. Does your role pm explicitly state that ooba is town? If your answer is no then please ask Plum if that information is supposed to be implied by you being 'masons'.

[Gut]

Ooba softclaimed it earlier.

MoS, it was never 90% non-confirmed and it certainly isn't now. All the cool kids use neighbors.

[Gut]

^^^This is how someone defends their mason buddy?????

You certainly thought it was a weird defense before, at least enough to ask for meta on Ooba making such defenses, how is that inconsistent with a mason trying to defend someone they know is town without straight up coming out and saying they are masons?

@MoI

Stop trying to turn this into a you vs. S&M. I don't doubt that you are town, you are stupid to still think S&M is likely scum though, and neither of you are getting lynched today. We aren't giving up a chance at lynching someone that has a real shot at being mafia just to save your ass.

[Gut]

I don't agree with a) or c) and I don't even know what b) means. The Cop guilty means very little in this game, Amrun claiming miller to Ooba long before the Cop investigation is enough for me. I mean I'm not saying the slot is confirmed town, I just don't think its all that likely that they are scum. Useless? Sure. More deserving of dying? Sure. But they don't actually have a reasonable chance of being scum. Do you really think the mafia have a vig? Cause the way kills fell there was a missing killer before Amruns claim.

The choice isn't between S&M and MoI like you all are framing it, its between S&M and (MoI and a lynch of our choosing), giving up that lynch is a big deal.

[Gut]

Wait, who do you think the mafia killed Night 1?

No one? Failed kills aren't particularly uncommon.

SpyreX, I don't think this dance is justified today, so there's no reason we'd do this dance again "tomorrow". Unless ooba + S&M are scum claiming masons, we know why there's a guilty result. Arguing that we're not wasting our lynch on non-scum by appealing to Feysal is silly - letting S&M live gives us a lynch and 2 vig shots.

[Gut]

Oh, shut up, MoI.

Empking, you're Today's lynch, not the vig kill.

[Gut]

Whatever. Have fun in your network of tunnels. At least you won't get mislynched over it this time, like in Invictus.

@Empking, if the VC said you were Today's lynch, it would be Night.

[Gut]

Well, when you're arguing fake facts...

edit: Got ninja'd by myself, thats always fun!

[Gut]

Where have I said that they are alignment confirmed? (Hint: I haven't) I still think its possible, we have to wait for them to get back and see. I do think its highly unlikely that that they are scum either way, and thats all I've ever said.

[Gut]

Now whos using rhetoric to get their way?

[Gut]

1. Guilty Cop result. I should stop the list right here but let's continue.
2. Claimed to be alignment confirmed when all evidence (provided by himself and partner, natch) clearly demonstrate he is not. Hey look, a direct lie in their claim.
3. Miller claim after the guilty result reveal. Scum play.
4. Vig claim supported by Kill flavor which he disavows Night 2 kill with identical flavor.
5. Cognitive Dissonance in his reasons for shooting Chrono (lurking as scum) when CSL (part of the Hydra) does the exact same thing and Amrun attempts to say isn't valid meta for CSL.
6. Never addressed why Amrun head was 'too busy' to play as a single player yet was signing up for new games at the exact same time.
7. Flailing in hanging onto "Seraphs say Empking dies" as only reason why he shouldn't die despite all the above.

1 This point means next to nothing because of the miller claim.
2 'Mason' Is used almost exclusively on alignment confirmed masons these days, its not unreasonable for them to think they are alignment confirmed given that. If you were told you were a 'Cop' you'd expect to be able to investigate right?
3 Claimed miller to Ooba over a day before the reveal.
4 There was a missing killer before he claimed, now their isn't. Amrun is almost certainly a killing role regardless of alignment, why would they lie about shooting wraith? (Honestly he was a reasonable shot)
5 Amrun would know CSL's alignment, it's easy to have double standards when you have inside information on one of them.
6 Keeping up with a new game is way easier than catching up on one you are in the weeds in. I'm not saying signing up for a new game is the ethical choice, but it doesn't make her a liar.
7 I've seen no such flailing.

[Gut]

'tormented and killed' is presumably the mafia kill MO, and its not present N1.

[Gut]

I think chamber neatly demonstrated why you don't respond to MoI when he's in tunnel mode.

A note about kill flavours: Turin and Glaurung having the same kill flavour is easily explained by the fact that Turin wields Glaurung (not that I think an explanation is needed.)

[Gut]

Kill flavours have been meaningful in all past Plum games.

[Gut]

Unless ooba S&M are scum claiming masons, we know why there's a guilty result.

No, ooba and S&M are claiming Neighbors not Masons. Their RolePMs DO NOT say they are alignment confirmed. That Amrun had to check is proof of this.

S&M partner found. Otherwise you wouldn't keep saying they were alignment confirmed when the evidence clearly shows that they aren't.

Oh, shut up, MoI.

Empking, you're Today's lynch, not the vig kill.

Well, when you're arguing fake facts...

edit: Got ninja'd by myself, thats always fun!

Where have I said that they are alignment confirmed? (Hint: I haven't) I still think its possible, we have to wait for them to get back and see. I do think its highly unlikely that that they are scum either way, and thats all I've ever said.

Reread that exchange, other than that I'm done responding to you.

[Gut]

Shut up about your guilty, MoI. You know it's meaningless. If you want to push the scummy miller claim argument, fine, but the only way the guilty means something is if ML and Amrun are in this together in some sort of gambit.

P-edit: we already know the Seraphs can millerize. But yes, Vig > Cop.

[Gut]

There are 2 of us MoI.

[Gut]

Unvote, vote: Espeonage

Suffer not the lurkerscum to live!

[Gut]

4. Gut: You said you already know the Seraphs can millerize. How do you know this, and do you think they--and not the killing of Chronopie--are what made S&M into a miller? Because given the fact that they claimed to know S&M is Turin, if they had also millerized Turin, then I would think they would also claim that as well.

... There are 2 seraphs, so if a seraph millerized him it would presumably be thor/agm, not the same seraph that is claiming S&M is Turin. But no, I don't think a seraph did the millerizing, it does show the mechanic is in play though.

LESS S&M VOTES PLEASE

[Gut]

Actually when you get down to the heart of it before lylo when there's a guilty and then SURPRISE MILLER you lynch the miller.

That's kinda mafia 101.

Except for the part where they had claimed miller previously, albeit just to ML, so S&M aren't surprise millers in any relevant sense.

[Gut]

Except for the part where they had claimed miller previously, albeit just to ML, so S&M aren't surprise millers in any relevant sense.

And again, no possible way he fabricated that Night 1 (after no-one claimed Miller Day 1 as is proper) to have an 'ally' to ward of Investigation result that they had to have expected.

Oh wait, that's exactly what happened ....

I'm pretty sure I'm going to regret this but let me try to get through to you one more time.

I've never thought or said S&M is 100% confirmed anything. Your stated possability is just that, a possability. Because of the miller claim that came prior to your cop investigation your investigation is completely meaningless unless you think amrun and ludi are scum together, and you don't seem to think this. Because your objective cop investigation is meaningless you instead have to use subjective means to determine S&M's alignment, which I admit you've done, but I respectfully disagree with your conclusions. The issue is that you continue to frame your subjective reads as objective facts, which they simply aren't.

[Gut]

I'm pretty sure I'm going to regret this but let me try to get through to you one more time.

I've never thought or said S&M is 100% confirmed anything. Your stated possability is just that, a possability. Because of the miller claim that came prior to your cop investigation your investigation is completely meaningless unless you think amrun and ludi are scum together, and you don't seem to think this. Because your objective cop investigation is meaningless you instead have to use subjective means to determine S&M's alignment, which I admit you've done, but I respectfully disagree with your conclusions.

The issue is that you continue to frame your subjective reads as objective facts, which they simply aren't.

I'm sure you are going to regret it since it is you spewing the same crap over again.

1. My guilty is not meaningless based on Sun and Moon's claim to Magister. You keep repeating it as if his status is confirmed fact when it isn't. Even if they aren't partners Sun and Moon can just as easily be Scum 'lying' about becoming a Miller just as easily as he could actually becoming a Miller. Even more so given that both Seraphs have confirmed that they can grant Miller status. How many Miller mechanisms do you think exist in the game? At this stage of the game the only known Cop roles look to be Latent Abilities - Wraith's 1 Shot Cop / Doc and my Suicide Cop. Proliferating the game with 'Surprise Miller' abilities makes little sense in that regard.

In summary - your stance that my objective result is meaningless isn't valid as it works from the premise that Sun and Moon didn't lie to Magister. Which scum will do.

2. Actually the bolded line is your issue also. You are framing your stance as fact when it's only your opinion. I can't really blame you trying this repeatedly as you are very likely their scum partner and thus want to get them off any way you can. So you can't exactly decry what I am doing when you are using the exact same tactics.

MORE SUN AND MOON VOTES PLEASE!!!

It doesn't require a presumption that Sun and Moon didn't lie. Based on the fact that they claimed miller, lying or not, its a given that they would return guilty to a cop, this means the fact that you got a guilty is entirely meaningless (with the exception being if S&M and ludi are scum together and are fabricating the preexisting miller claim). You instead have to weigh whether you think they lied or not. You think they lied, I don't think they lied, neither of us conclusively know and can only look at what's been said in thread as evidence, its all subjective.

On a not game related note, did you fuck up those quote tags or did it do that automatically?

[Gut]

It doesn't require a presumption that Sun and Moon didn't lie. Based on the fact that they claimed miller, lying or not, its a given that they would return guilty to a cop, this means the fact that you got a guilty is entirely meaningless (with the exception being if S&M and ludi are scum together and are fabricating the preexisting miller claim). You instead have to weigh whether you think they lied or not. You think they lied, I don't think they lied, neither of us conclusively know and can only look at what's been said in thread as evidence, its all subjective.

no this is wrong. whos to say that scum amrun couldnt claim to town ludi (her neighbor) that she was a miller. ludi has no way to act on this so there is no danger in amrun doing so. it has the benefit of her being able say "look, i claimed miller BEFORE the guilty" while not inviting any attention onto her or having to explain why she wasnt nked for it. imho the miller claim at this juncture is worthless. ludi does not have to be scum for the miller claim to be a lie.

sigh. I didn't say ludi needed to be scum for the miller claim to be a lie. She claims to have claimed miller to ludi a day before the cop investigation. This is true unless they are scum together. If this is true she would show guilty to a cop investigation regardless of whether she was scum that lied to ludi or town that was telling the truth. Therefore the only scenario in which the cop investigation means anything is the one where ludi and S&M are scum together. QED.

Yes she could still be scum, but there is no hard evidence towards that fact, if anything the only hard evidence is that shes a killing role, and thats highly suggestive of her not being mafia.

To put it another way; If MoI hadn't claimed a guilty on S&M today would you still be voting for them? If the answer is yes I have no issue with you still voting them, if the answer is no, then you should really be voting for that other person instead.

[Gut]

@Gut: Is Ellibereth scum?

Maybe? I don't really like him much but I also haven't talked to the other head about his slot in quite some time.

[Gut]

I'm here and catching up, albeit slowly. I've read all of day 3 and most of day 1. Barring power outage due to

snow

in

October

, I'll be caught up tomorrow.

I don't see any way we can justify lynching anyone other than S&M or MoI - regardless of whether you believe the mason/miller/vig claim or not, we have two Turins. I don't see that being possible barring one of them being scum.

MoS, why the Elli vote? Why are you placing a lurkervote when we have a 1-1? The same goes for people voting me and Empking, but those are at least *wagons*. One vote doesn't get to call itself a pressure vote.

I'm inclined to believe MoI over S&M, just because the millermasonvig claim is just so over the top. Also, it seems like we'd be better off being wrong and killing S&M than being wrong and killing MoI.

S&M, did the millerization happen at the same time as the vig shot or because of the vig shot? Please clarify with the mod if you don't know this.

VOTE: S&M

So your reason for very wrongly narrowing the lynch to between S&M and MoI is because they both claimed turin, but then you vote the one whos name is confirmed to be turin?

Pretty happy with my vote.

[Gut]

The last vote count is on the previous page ffs. She's at L-3.

[Gut]

How about a claim?

[Gut]

This pains me more than you could possibly know.

Unvote

. The gandalf quote makes the claim reasonable enough that I want to have time to run it by CES if nothing else :/.

Ludi, You are thinking she found the quote first and used it to fabricate a claim? Gandalf would have still needed a reason to say it, do you have anything ideas?

[Gut]

do you have any ideas?*

[Gut]

also, ctrl+f on esp in Gandalf's iso. It's the second thing that pops up.

This doesn't sound like its what you actually did. Are you claiming it is?

[Gut]

Yeah, neighborizer claim is pretty meaningless. It's basically a VT claim except there's an in-built explanation for why scum would claim it even though they should know it won't save them (i.e. because it's true).

Vote: smargaret

[Gut]

MOS, 2 kill methods were used to kill SpyreX, IE: 3 kills. Everything else aside S&M 100% can kill.

[Gut]

SpyreX

- 1 -

Gut

Gut

- 2 - MagnaofIllusion,

PeregrineV

Feysal

- 1 -

VitaminR

Andrius - 1 - Mastermind of Sin
kanyeknowsbest - 1 - Magister Ludi

gandalf5166

- 6 - Empking,

SpyreX

, kanyeknowsbest,

Furcolow

, Herodotus,

Feysal

Furcolow

- 1 - Andrius

Not Voting (9):

Sun and Moon

,

Chronopie

,

gandalf5166

, Ellibereth, Dekes, mockingjaye,

Wraith

,

smargaret

,

Will-o-wisp

SpyreX

- 2 -

Gut

,

gandalf5166

gandalf5166

- 4 -

SpyreX

, kanyeknowsbest, Herodotus,

smargaret

Furcolow

- 1 - Andrius
kanyeknowsbest - 1 -

PeregrineV

Feysal

- 3 - Mastermind of Sin, MagnaofIllusion, Empking

PeregrineV

- 1 -

VitaminR

Herodotus - 2 - Ellibereth, Magister Ludi

Not Voting (8):

Sun and Moon

,

Chronopie

, Dekes, mockingjaye,

Wraith

,

Will-o-wisp

,

Feysal

,

Furcolow

SpyreX

- 2 -

Gut

,

gandalf5166

gandalf5166

- 3 -

SpyreX

, kanyeknowsbest,

smargaret

Furcolow

- 1 - Andrius
kanyeknowsbest - 1 -

PeregrineV

Feysal

- 4 - Mastermind of Sin, MagnaofIllusion, Empking, Herodotus

PeregrineV

- 1 -

VitaminR

Herodotus - 2 - Ellibereth, Magister Ludi

Not Voting (8):

Sun and Moon

,

Chronopie

, Dekes, mockingjaye,

Wraith

,

Will-o-wisp

,

Feysal

,

Furcolow

SpyreX

- 1 -

gandalf5166

gandalf5166

- 2 - kanyeknowsbest,

Sun and Moon

Furcolow

- 1 - Andrius
kanyeknowsbest - 3 -

PeregrineV

,

Will-o-wisp

, mockingjaye

Feysal

- 4 - Mastermind of Sin, MagnaofIllusion, Empking, Herodotus
Herodotus - 5 - Ellibereth, Magister Ludi,

SpyreX

,

VitaminR

,

Feysal

VitaminR

- 1 -

Gut

Will-o-wisp

- 1 -

Furcolow

Not Voting (4):

Chronopie

, Dekes,

Wraith

,

smargaret

gandalf5166

- 3 - kanyeknowsbest,

Sun and Moon

,

SpyreX

kanyeknowsbest - 2 -

Will-o-wisp

, mockingjaye

Feysal

- 7 - Mastermind of Sin, MagnaofIllusion, Empking, Herodotus,

Gut

, Andrius,

gandalf5166

Herodotus - 4 - Ellibereth, Magister Ludi,

VitaminR

,

Feysal

Will-o-wisp

- 1 -

Furcolow

Andrius - 1 -

PeregrineV

Not Voting (4):

Chronopie

, Dekes,

Wraith

,

smargaret

gandalf5166

- 3 - kanyeknowsbest,

Sun and Moon

,

SpyreX

kanyeknowsbest - 3 -

Will-o-wisp

, mockingjaye,

Wraith

Feysal

- 6 - Mastermind of Sin, MagnaofIllusion, Empking, Herodotus, Andrius,

gandalf5166

Herodotus - 4 - Ellibereth, Magister Ludi,

VitaminR

,

Feysal

Will-o-wisp

- 1 -

Furcolow

Andrius - 1 -

PeregrineV

SpyreX

- 1 -

Gut

PeregrineV

- 1 - Dekes

Not Voting (2):

Chronopie

,

smargaret

gandalf5166

- 2 - kanyeknowsbest,

SpyreX

kanyeknowsbest - 5 -

Will-o-wisp

, mockingjaye,

Wraith

, Magister Ludi,

Sun and Moon

Feysal

- 6 - Mastermind of Sin, MagnaofIllusion, Empking, Herodotus, Andrius,

gandalf5166

Herodotus - 1 -

VitaminR

Andrius - 1 -

PeregrineV

SpyreX

- 1 -

Gut

PeregrineV

- 1 - Dekes

smargaret

- 1 -

Furcolow

Not Voting (4):

Chronopie

,

smargaret

, Ellibereth,

Feysal

gandalf5166

- 2 - kanyeknowsbest,

SpyreX

kanyeknowsbest - 7 -

Will-o-wisp

, mockingjaye,

Wraith

, Magister Ludi,

Sun and Moon

,

Gut

,

PeregrineV

Feysal

- 6 - Mastermind of Sin, MagnaofIllusion, Herodotus, Andrius,

gandalf5166

, Empking
Herodotus - 1 -

VitaminR

PeregrineV

- 1 - Dekes

smargaret

- 1 -

Furcolow

Wraith

- 1 -

smargaret

Not Voting (3):

Chronopie

, Ellibereth,

Feysal

gandalf5166

- 2 - kanyeknowsbest,

SpyreX

kanyeknowsbest - 8 -

Will-o-wisp

, mockingjaye,

Wraith

, Magister Ludi,

Sun and Moon

,

Gut

,

PeregrineV

,

Feysal

Feysal

- 7 - Mastermind of Sin, MagnaofIllusion, Herodotus, Andrius,

gandalf5166

, Empking,

Furcolow

Herodotus - 1 -

VitaminR

PeregrineV

- 1 - Dekes

Wraith

- 1 -

smargaret

Not Voting (2):

Chronopie

, Ellibereth

gandalf5166

- 2 - kanyeknowsbest,

SpyreX

kanyeknowsbest - 8 -

Will-o-wisp

, mockingjaye,

Wraith

, Magister Ludi,

Sun and Moon

,

Gut

,

PeregrineV

,

Feysal

Feysal

- 7 - Mastermind of Sin, MagnaofIllusion, Herodotus, Andrius,

gandalf5166

, Empking,

Furcolow

Herodotus - 1 -

VitaminR

PeregrineV

- 1 - Dekes

Wraith

- 1 -

smargaret

Not Voting (2):

Chronopie

, Ellibereth

gandalf5166

- 2 - kanyeknowsbest,

SpyreX

kanyeknowsbest - 8 -

Will-o-wisp

, mockingjaye,

Wraith

, Magister Ludi,

Sun and Moon

,

Gut

,

PeregrineV

,

Feysal

Feysal

- 7 - Mastermind of Sin, MagnaofIllusion, Herodotus, Andrius,

gandalf5166

, Empking,

Furcolow

Herodotus - 1 -

VitaminR

PeregrineV

- 1 - Dekes

Wraith

- 1 -

smargaret

Not Voting (2):

Chronopie

, Ellibereth

gandalf5166

- 2 - kanyeknowsbest,

SpyreX

kanyeknowsbest - 9 -

Will-o-wisp

, mockingjaye,

Wraith

, Magister Ludi,

Sun and Moon

,

Gut

,

PeregrineV

,

Feysal

,

smargaret

Feysal

- 7 - Mastermind of Sin, MagnaofIllusion, Herodotus, Andrius,

gandalf5166

, Empking,

Furcolow

Herodotus - 1 -

VitaminR

PeregrineV

- 1 - Dekes

Not Voting (2):

Chronopie

, Ellibereth

gandalf5166

- 1 -

SpyreX

kanyeknowsbest - 8 -

Will-o-wisp

, mockingjaye,

Wraith

, Magister Ludi,

Sun and Moon

,

Gut

,

PeregrineV

,

smargaret

Feysal

- 5 - Mastermind of Sin, MagnaofIllusion, Herodotus, Andrius,

gandalf5166

Herodotus - 1 -

VitaminR

PeregrineV

- 3 - Dekes,

Feysal

, Empking

Will-o-wisp

- 2 - kanyeknowsbest,

Furcolow

Not Voting (2):

Chronopie

, Ellibereth

kanyeknowsbest - 6 -

Will-o-wisp

, mockingjaye,

Wraith

,

Sun and Moon

,

PeregrineV

,

smargaret

Feysal

- 5 - Mastermind of Sin, MagnaofIllusion, Herodotus, Andrius,

gandalf5166

Herodotus - 1 -

VitaminR

PeregrineV

- 8 - Dekes,

Feysal

, Empking,

SpyreX

,

Gut

, kanyeknowsbest,

Furcolow

, Magister Ludi

Not Voting (2):

Chronopie

, Ellibereth

kanyeknowsbest - 6 -

Will-o-wisp

, mockingjaye,

Wraith

,

Sun and Moon

,

PeregrineV

,

smargaret

Feysal

- 4 - Mastermind of Sin, MagnaofIllusion, Herodotus,

gandalf5166

PeregrineV

- 10 - Dekes,

Feysal

, Empking,

SpyreX

,

Gut

, kanyeknowsbest, Magister Ludi,

VitaminR

,

Furcolow

, Andrius

Not Voting (2):

Chronopie

, Ellibereth

kanyeknowsbest - 5 -

Will-o-wisp

, mockingjaye,

Wraith

,

Sun and Moon

,

PeregrineV

Feysal

- 3 - Mastermind of Sin, MagnaofIllusion, Herodotus

PeregrineV

- 12 - Dekes,

Feysal

, Empking,

SpyreX

,

Gut

, kanyeknowsbest, Magister Ludi,

VitaminR

,

Furcolow

, Andrius,

smargaret

,

gandalf5166

Not Voting (2):

Chronopie

, Ellibereth

[Gut]

Operating under the assumption that mafia have a tendency to be non-randomly spread out, and the assumption that smargaret was part of a larger mafia(of which feysal and furcolow don't belong, and andi wouldn't know if he belonged to yet or not):

Magister Ludi .72
Ellibereth .52
Mastermind of Sin .42
Dekes .54
mockingjaye 1.04
kanyeknowsbest .45
Empking .46
MagnaofIllusion .46
Herodotus .40


Those are my normalized findings after half of the day1 wagons I coloured (I forgot to colour andrius blue for what I was doing before I posted them)

[Gut]

Yes, higher is bad, but its only half of day1, it took way longer than I expected.

[Gut]

(assumed 5 total mafia, so those numebrs should roughly add up to 4, the number of remaning scum, but I did some rounding so its not perfect)

[Gut]

I can probably upload the spreadsheet I'm using to google docs or something once I've done everything. Those are just the results not the process, and this is the first time I'm trying the process, it may be poo.

I wouldn't mind voting for either of those players, but I'd like to talk to my other head first.

[Gut]

Vote: Elli

[Gut]

I don't really put much faith in VCA either, this is more an experminet, I can see how accurate it was after the game. All of day 1:

Magister Ludi .72
Ellibereth .54
Mastermind of Sin .44
Dekes .45
mockingjaye .91
kanyeknowsbest .54
Empking .50
MagnaofIllusion .46
Herodotus .43

I noticed I missed vote count in the earlier list, so its not exactly the first half of day 1 (though it is 8 vote counts just not the first 8)

[Gut]

Have you considered voicing it in here? Pretty good odds someone will read it.

[Gut]

I killed Will-o-wisp. I actually targeted Will-o-wisp, so I don't think the bodyguard power did anything.

Totally called it.

Chamber can verify.

[Gut]

Furcolow

- 1 -

smargaret

Feysal

- 5 - Mastermind of Sin,

Furcolow

, Dekes, Empking,

Andrius

VitaminR

- 2 - Herodotus,

gut

Dekes - 2 - MagnaofIllusion,

SpyreX

Not Voting (10): Magister Ludi,

Sun and Moon

, Ellibereth, mockingjaye,

Feysal

, kanyeknowsbest,

VitaminR

,

Will-o-wisp

,

Wraith

,

gandalf5166

Furcolow

- 1 -

smargaret

Feysal

- 4 - Mastermind of Sin, Dekes, Empking,

Andrius

VitaminR

- 2 - Herodotus,

gut

Dekes - 2 - MagnaofIllusion,

SpyreX

kanyeknowsbest - 2 -

Wraith

,

Furcolow

Not Voting (9): Magister Ludi,

Sun and Moon

, Ellibereth, mockingjaye,

Feysal

, kanyeknowsbest,

VitaminR

,

Will-o-wisp

,

gandalf5166

Furcolow

- 1 -

smargaret

Feysal

- 4 - Mastermind of Sin, Dekes,

Andrius

VitaminR

- 2 - Herodotus,

gut

Dekes - 2 - MagnaofIllusion,

SpyreX

,

VitaminR

,
kanyeknowsbest - 2 -

Wraith

,

Furcolow

,

gandalf5166

Sun and Moon

- 1 - Empking,

Will-o-wisp

- 1 - Ellibereth,

Not Voting (9): Magister Ludi,

Sun and Moon

, mockingjaye,

Feysal

, kanyeknowsbest,

Will-o-wisp

Furcolow

- 1 -

smargaret

Feysal

- 3 - Mastermind of Sin, Dekes,

Andrius

VitaminR

- 2 - Herodotus,

gut

Dekes - 3 - MagnaofIllusion,

SpyreX

,

VitaminR

kanyeknowsbest - 5 -

Wraith

,

Furcolow

,

gandalf5166

, Magister Ludi, Ellibereth

Sun and Moon

- 1 - Empking,

Not Voting (5):

Sun and Moon

, mockingjaye,

Feysal

, kanyeknowsbest,

Will-o-wisp

Furcolow

- 1 -

smargaret

Feysal

- 2 - Mastermind of Sin, Dekes

VitaminR

- 3 - Herodotus,

gut

, Empking
Dekes - 3 - MagnaofIllusion,

SpyreX

,

VitaminR

kanyeknowsbest - 6 -

Wraith

,

gandalf5166

, Magister Ludi, Ellibereth, mockingjaye,

Andrius

Sun and Moon

- 1 -

Furcolow

Not Voting (4):

Sun and Moon

,

Feysal

, kanyeknowsbest,

Will-o-wisp

Furcolow

- 1 -

smargaret

Feysal

- 1 - Dekes

VitaminR

- 3 - Herodotus,

gut

, Empking
Dekes - 2 -

SpyreX

,

VitaminR

kanyeknowsbest - 6 -

Wraith

,

gandalf5166

, Magister Ludi, Ellibereth, mockingjaye,

Andrius

Mastermind of Sin - 2 -

Furcolow

, MagnaofIllusion
Ellibereth -1 - Mastermind of Sin

Not Voting (4):

Sun and Moon

,

Feysal

, kanyeknowsbest,

Will-o-wisp

Furcolow

- 1 -

smargaret

Feysal

- 1 - Dekes

VitaminR

- 3 - Herodotus,

gut

, Empking
Dekes - 1 -

VitaminR

kanyeknowsbest - 7 -

Wraith

, Magister Ludi, Ellibereth, mockingjaye,

Andrius

,

Will-o-wisp

, MagnaofIllusion
Mastermind of Sin - 2 -

Furcolow

,

gandalf5166

Ellibereth -1 - Mastermind of Sin

Will-o-wisp

- 2 -

SpyreX

, kanyeknowsbest

Not Voting (2):

Sun and Moon

,

Feysal

Furcolow

- 1 -

smargaret

Feysal

- 1 - Dekes

VitaminR

- 10 - Herodotus,

gut

, Empking,

Furcolow

, Magister Ludi, kanyeknowsbest, MagnaofIllusion,

Wraith

,

Andrius

,

Feysal

kanyeknowsbest - 6 - mockingjaye,

Will-o-wisp

,

gandalf5166

,

Sun and Moon

,

VitaminR

Will-o-wisp

- 1 -

SpyreX

Wraith

- 1 - Mastermind of Sin

Not Voting (1): Ellibereth,

[Gut]

(normalized for 5 scum isntead of 4 with the last set heres the corrected values)

Day1
Magister Ludi .58
Ellibereth .44
Mastermind of Sin .35
Dekes .36
mockingjaye .73
kanyeknowsbest .43
Empking .40
MagnaofIllusion .37
Herodotus .34

Day2
Magister Ludi .49
Ellibereth .43
Mastermind of Sin .29
Dekes .29
mockingjaye .58
kanyeknowsbest .62
Empking .33
MagnaofIllusion .54
Herodotus .42

Day1 & Day2
Magister Ludi .54
Ellibereth .43
Mastermind of Sin .32
Dekes .33
mockingjaye .65
kanyeknowsbest .52
Empking .37
MagnaofIllusion .45
Herodotus .38

[Gut]

I remembered my question for gut. Why am I even listed in that, if Sun and Moon is not?

I'm specifically looking for mafia. Given that Sun and Moon has deminstrated the use of a killing ability I think the chance that shes mafia is 0. I can't say the same for you.

[Gut]

Can we just lynch Ellilurkerscum?

[Gut]

ANDRIUS.

I GLANCED THROUGH YOU"R POSTS TO SEE IF YOU WERE TOWN. YOU ARE.

DON'T DECEIVE ME. DON'T BREAK MY HEART.

Elli's replacement?

[Gut]

Personally I'm mostly indifferent between Elli and Mockingjay, not because I don't feel strongly about either but because I feel strongly that both are mafia. I do slightly lean more towards Elli though, and CES appears to very much lean in that direction.

[Gut]

Vote: Sun and Moon

How is this guy not lynched already?

[Gut]

currently alive, or including smargaret?

What did you just do to do that?

[Gut]

NVM, I know this glitch already.

[Gut]

@Mystery Player who was in the QT when I was booted - Please be double checking Andy's post re Seraph info from here on out. Also, immediately let us know if you are booted.

We didn't last much longer than you did, MoI.

Anyway, we got ourselves 2 scum caught in Nacho and mjaye and let's not be silly and just string 'em up.

Fun fact: the decree from the Seraphs that Empking should die - totally our doing. It really did work beautifully.

[Gut]

I'll reconcile them for you: Furcolow is an idiot.

Nacho/Elli still needs to die in a major way.

[Gut]

It's kind of silly, but I'm perfectly fine letting Feysal live. Especially with Nachoobvscum running around.

And this game has, once again, proven it.

Nope. Getting rid of suspects is perfectly useful. Wraith and WoW could've easily been mislynches; I certainly don't doubt that Feysal aimed for scum.

[Gut]

That, and I find myself pretty fucking dubious that one of the roles that Plum put in the game was "UNKNOWN". Yes, this is a bastard game, but even a bastard game doesn't have a use for a role that has no motivation to play.

And giving really sucky roles to gandalf is acceptable, is what you're saying? Yeah, you're scum.

[Gut]

because masons are so dangerous to SK's

Want to elaborate on that one?

[Gut]

Code: Select all

[post=550][/post]
or
[post=822]this is a link[/post]
is much better than Post 550.

Post 550
or
this is a link
is much better than Post 550.

[Gut]

because masons are so dangerous to SK's

Want to elaborate on that one?

An SK (or any other lone scum) can never win while there are 2 living townies. If there are 2 townies who both know the other to be town, they will never vote each other. The SK will lose if they don't kill at least one of them before it's too late. (This applies more to guaranteed town masons, but their roles seem to give them some confidence in the other so it still applies partially.)
The smaller the scumgroup, the less tolerant they can afford to be of confirmed townies. A large group might leave a confirmed innocent alive if that innocent is playing poorly or has no abilities, and endgame them.

Right, what about this situation specifically makes you think the masons would make any sense as a kill choice for feysal SK? I don't care about generalities.

[Gut]

I don't think scum would be this blindly tunneled on someone who is generally considered to be town.

I've done this exact thing as scum. It's almost certainly not best play but it's entirely plausible. Scum might also not feel uncertain as regards how to back off in a natural-looking manner.

Gut: Thank you. I haven't ever known how to do that.

It's a fairly new tag.

[Gut]

I was thinking in terms of generalities, not specifics.

Why?

[Gut]

I was out of the house from like 10pm est untill 430am est, no idea wtf faraday was smoking.

Hero, you never answered my question. Why were you using generic reasons instead of specific ones when you did?

[Gut]

unvote
Vote Nacho

Looks like andrius was scum the entire game and empking's role giving failed, contrary to my memory. We now return to our normally schedule programming!

As bad as your vote was, this reason for unvoting is actually worse.

[Gut]

I didn't have a point, I'm not entirely sure where I stand on the issue atm, but I can still spot flawed logic when I see it. If andrius always had his role, the only reasonable way for him to geuss at there being an unknown role/role giving mechanic in the game is if empking was mafia with him.

[Gut]

I think he might have simply piggy backed of gandalf's confusion and just completely fabricated not having a 'role' on day one.

Based on my memory, and I admit this was quite a long time ago so I may be misremembering something, andrius claimed to have no role while gandalf was still claiming to be Gandalf. gandalf had left some breadcrumbs but picking up on the unknown role mechanic from just that within all that chaos seems unlikely to me.

[Gut]

@Gut: why was Andrius blue in your VCA?

I still don't think he had a role for the first 2 game days (the only days I finished my vca for). I was measuring scum separation, so someone that doesn't know their role, which I believed at the time and still believe to be the most likely case now, wouldn't be factored in.

[Gut]

MoS is definitely avoiding the thread. He's been on the site.

Vote: MoS

[Gut]

Why would you pay special interest starting on day2? Gandalf was targeted by both potential role givers night 1 if my memory isn't failing me which means if Andy started without a role he wouldn't have known he was mafia until day 3 at the earliest.

[Gut]

We had his ability activated again Yesterday, mjaye. Cops are generally useful.

Dammit.

[Gut]

Only if by obvious solution you meant 'The last optimal play we could reasonably make'.

[Gut]

MoI calling Mos out suggest he has some info we don't on the matter, your plan completely ignores this.

Your plan doesn't actually give us new info about MoS it just stops the mafia from killing you if MoS is town, and if MoS is scum it lets them kill you and setup a mislynch before we realize that fact.

No one already died last night suggesting there is some other protective or proventative role at work still, which negates the little value that would be gained by having him watch you.

Am I missing something?