Mini 1243: Magician Mafia (Game Over)

[Amrun]

Shift

WHY NOT CONFIRM, SCUMZ?

[Amrun]

Why do you care if someone throws a fit, Shift?

[Amrun]

Judging by join date and the above, I'm saying shift is town.

Both of those things are null tells.

[Amrun]

Judging by join date and the above, I'm saying shift is town.

Both of those things are null tells.

Combined, I don't think so.
I think if a typical mafia player profile existed, shift being frustrated and pre-defensive about certain aspects of play after the amount of time he has spent on this site feels about right.

Why is that indicative of him being town?

[Amrun]

I'm voting for shift.

Just bolding his name is not enough to vote for him

[Amrun]

Okay, first things first:

*brings suitcase on stage*
*opens suitcase to reveal smaller suitcase inside*
*opens smaller suitcase to reveal a safebox*
*opens safebox to reveal a mystery box*
*opens mystery box to reveal a one-shot Cult Cop ability a matryoshka doll*

*shoves large pile of excess baggage to side*

I don't even know what this means or how it correlates with me spitting cherry coke but I love this post restriction.

Vi, tell me, are you allowed to break your post restriction X amount of times per day, X amount of times per game? Incorporate the number "1" into your response for the former, and the number "2" for the latter. The second number will be what X is, so you should incorporate that into your answer as well. If you are not allowed to break restriction ever, use the number "3".

Wow that is complicated.

Unvote, vote saulres

I know you'd mentioned saulres before, but why did you only finally vote him in a post that didn't mention him at all? Is buddying with Junpei enough to make him scum, in your opinion?



Saulres is null at best, and in fact, I get town vibes from him. The scum here is Junpei. After CC and Vi voted, Junpei very clearly fabricated reasons to suspect saulres. It read to me as looking for an excuse to get on the biggest wagon - and, as ace noted, the "no quicklynch please" indicates that Junpei expected this wagon to result in a lynch. All of Junpei's subsequent responses have not read genuine to me.

VOTE: Junpei

[Amrun]

Why does Junpei look all right to you?

[Amrun]

Why is that suspicious?

I'm not answering them because they're stupid and I see no reasonable method of scumhunting in them.

You're missing the point. Crab asked HOW you used them to scumhunt; you answered, "I use them to scumhunt."

[Amrun]

Shift, what made you think that anyone was voting Junpei for asking RQS questions?

[Amrun]

Shift, what made you think that anyone was voting Junpei for asking RQS questions?

Skimmed, saw something about his RQS questions and something about hopping on the saulres bandwagon which obviously I'm not going to complain about.

Why do you have time to write a wall based on false premises, but not enough time to read?

[Amrun]

Hmm.

Shiftscum?

[Amrun]

Hmm.

Shiftscum?

yup that looks like the case, at least he has more of a tendency to flail.

vote: crab canon

So you think Shift is scum and you vote Crab Canon? o.O

[Amrun]

sottyrulez, why do you think scum would know that Vi's post restriction is real?

[Amrun]

Sotty, haven't we done this song and dance before?

I ask a lot of questions. Sometimes I don't do anything with the answers because I thought it was going to go somewhere it didn't (or I forget). And sometimes I make an alignment decision or get an alignment nudge based on the question but don't state it because it's not strong or isn't relevant at the time.

And I don't know why scum would necessarily assume Vi was telling the truth. She's lied about post restrictions before. Personally, I'll probably never believe a post restriction from Vi again, at least one like this, but as long as she provides content I'm okay with it. It isn't indicative of alignment in the slightest, in my opinion.

Besides Junpei, I find Shift scummy (already stated), saulres townish (already stated), have a vague town read on Crab Canon, and think SL is probably town for trying to Shift (I think it was shift) of as town in the beginning even though it didn't make sense to do so. That's what I recall off of the top of my head, but I think someone agreed with me about Junpei, so that person gets some town points as well for echoing my thoughts.

[Amrun]

sottyrulez, why do you think scum would know that Vi's post restriction is real?

Sotty already covered this, but I'd like to add to it.

Are you really trying to argue this as a non point? Do you think town has as equal an interest as scum in just accepting that Vi has a post restriction and being happy with the idea of having a more challenging line of communication with Vi? Because I don't really see how that kind of thinking makes any kind of sense as being equally/more likely to come from a town perspective.

Oh, but Zach, are you forgetting the crux of your argument?

It isn't a non-point at all.

In this line of questioning, I am thinking of this:

Post 63 is a massive red flag for us. What makes them certain that Vi's not faking the post restriction? Reaction here reeks of inside knowledge. (Also I personally disliked the way they seemed to attempt to shut down this line of discussion by lumping it into an accusation that attempting to communicate with Vi is trying to modkill Vi.)

I am not talking about the fact that you are saying CC was trying to stop efforts to communicate with Vi; that's something else entirely.

I am taking issue with the premise that assuming that Vi's post restriction is real = inside knowledge, ESPECIALLY for a hydra involving Juls. Juls and I both played in a game where Vi faked a highly restrictive post restriction. Vi was town. I don't know if CC believes the post restriction; I don't believe that their posts are necessarily preclusive to them not believing it. The way I interpret it, they simply said that they believed such questions might lead to a modkill and requested that line of questioning be stopped. I don't agree with THAT sentiment, but I do disagree with you finding scum intent from CC assuming the post restriction is real. My guess is that VP has been doing most of the posting, and he does seem to believe Vi right off the bat. My point is that even if the slot IS scum and Vi is town,

they still don't know the post restriction is real.

Therefore, there is no inside information to be had and that point is invalid. In FACT, I'd go as far as saying that CC is town for attempting to use Vi's "pr" to mostly clear her as town. This hydra has the means and the experience to make this pr a completely nulltell for Vi, just like me, but instead chooses to push this is a town tell. I see no scum motivation here - only town motivation.

Why is this a non issue? You are saying, "Crab Canon is scum because of x, y, and z," and I'm saying x is invalid.

Since sotty asked, let's look at those x, y, and z. X and y are above; I disagree with x. I think y is valid, but that you're making too big of a deal out of it. I don't see a particularly high likelihood of scum trying to stop the discussion about Vi's possible pr out of scummy motivations. Z is as follows:

Also dislike post 121. It's non committal to shift and potentially an associative tell contingent on one of them flipping scum. Not as strong, but I'm not used to seeing that kind of waffling from VP.

Here is the relevant part of the post in question:

I can't make heads or tails of Shift, honestly.

It was in response to this post of mine.

Hmm.

Shiftscum?

I don't see any scum motivation for stating a read (or in this case, a non-read) on Shift. CC could easily have ignored my vague post before it and avoided stating any read (which would be much more noncommital than stating that he was having trouble reading Shift). In fact, now that I'm looking at it more closely, why didn't you (sottyrulez) call ME out for being noncommital on Shift? My post was easily as noncommital as CC's, and it came first, yet you call him out for it and not me.


I'm tired so I'm not sure that made sense. Ask me questions if it doesn't and I'll sort it out later.


Sotty:

I'd really like you to go through my ISO and point out all the useless questions I've done nothing with. Seriously.

[Amrun]

oh crap that became a wall. I formally apologize.

[Amrun]

Why do you disagree?

[Amrun]

Why do you care if someone throws a fit, Shift?

No follow up.

Obviously, I used it to inform my read on Shift, but I will give you that I stated nothing explicitly in thread about this.

Why is that indicative of him being town?

No follow up.

Not at all true. I used this to inform my read on springlullaby, and I even talked about it in a previous post.

Why does Junpei look all right to you?

No follow up.

I don't think this question was ever answered, actually. SL, please to be answering this.

Shift, what made you think that anyone was voting Junpei for asking RQS questions?

No follow up.

In case this wasn't self explanatory...

Shift, what made you think that anyone was voting Junpei for asking RQS questions?

Skimmed, saw something about his RQS questions and something about hopping on the saulres bandwagon which obviously I'm not going to complain about.

Why do you have time to write a wall based on false premises, but not enough time to read?

Hmm.

Shiftscum?

This one SHOULD be obvious, really. I asked Shift a series of questions and when I received the answers, I postulated that he is scum. Why would you assume that the two are not correlated?

So you think Shift is scum and you vote Crab Canon? o.O

No follow up.

This is, in fact, the only question I haven't followed up, and because I'm not sure what to do with the answer. I think what quadz did was stupid, to be honest, but I don't know if there is scum intent there.

I have nothing I want to do with this question right at this minute, but in my brain I have this marked as a possible associative tell if Shift flips scum. If Shift were to die and flip town, nothing would ever come of this question. And I think that is okay.

sottyrulez, why do you think scum would know that Vi's post restriction is real?

I thought this was obvious, but maybe it wasn't seeing your reaction. Will to give this the benefit of the doubt.

The pattern was you would asked a bunch of questions that looked to go no where. It's a way of generating content without actually committing to reads. Before I asked you directly to give your reads there was little in your ISO to show what you were thinking or if you were doing anything with these answers you were getting. Asking questions helps determine alignment, I know. But I'm not giving anyone the benefit of the doubt if all they are going to do is ask questions that look like they go nowhere.

But that isn't a pattern that's been established from this game. My playing style is to ask a lot of questions. I do something with most, if not all, of the answers, but it might be something that happens in my brain and not in the thread. I do use some answers in thread, but I don't always go HEY GUYS REMEMBER THAT QUESTION THAT I POSTED IN POST X, I AM GOING TO USE IT NOW.

In this game, it is page 8 and I think it is perfectly valid to be in a questioning stage right now. However, I have also laid down a serious vote and given other reads, so I think it's really unfair to say that I'm trying to avoid committing to reads.

I feel the need to note that the last time you harped on me about questions, you were scum and I was town (in Dexter mafia). That is not to say you are scum here because of that, but it does set a precedent. In this game, I have a townread on you, but it is not particularly strong.

Amrun, what game is this where Vi faked a PR? I'm interested. We can see why you think that is invaild because of Juls, but I just don't agree. I would think townVP would want to figure out the depths of the PR rather than curtail all discussion around it. Post 63 does indirectly suggest that VP believes Vi because he is SO WORRIED about a mod kill. Which I personally think is BS. I just don't know why he would be willing to let someone like Vi off so lightly.

~Sotty

Your disagreement stems from a meta thing about VPB. You have a lot more experience with him than me. I don't think it's a big issue.

Here's the game:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... =3&t=17567:

[Amrun]

I also get townish vibes from ace... Mostly because his play is different than whan I played with him as scumbuddies. Not something to hang any hats on, but I see very little to jump all over, either.

The counterwagon comment was pretty bad, though.

[Amrun]

Why?

[Amrun]

Riggs, let me get this straight... You think the scumteam is ace, crab canon, and sottyrulez?

Ace, so you're saying you think the pro town thing to do is to say "this wagon is bad" with zero reasoning whatsoever?

[Amrun]

Why is it not fine? Why is it anti-town?

[Amrun]

FISHY WE MEET AGAIN

Sadly, this time we cannot both be separate non town entities that pretend to profess town reads on each other, because I am actually town. Good times, good times.

[Amrun]

Instead, you could just read and find who YOU think is scum and vote for that person.

[Amrun]

Fishy, do you think CC is scum or town?

[Amrun]

If sotty and crab both turn up town (as I think they are), I think focusing on the apparent 1 v 1 is a scum point for fishy. Scum loooooove false 1 v 1.

[Amrun]

V/LA until Monday night

[Amrun]

220 - Votes ace because he thinks ace is slandering the CrabCanon wagon in a bad way. Also he believes CrabCanon vs. sotty is looking like an unproductive slap-fight.

253 - Concerned that CrabCanon said ace's name when he meant 4nxi3ty's name, I'm guessing the reasoning is that CrabCanon allegedly had ace's name in his head because Vi think's they're scum-buddies. More concern about ace's defense of CrabCanon.

376 - Says that the main reason he's voting ace

is

due to CrabCanon - ace relationship.

I really don't like Shift's weak jump to a policy lynch when sotty is at L-2, why do you think springlullaby is a better choice than sotty right now? Here's a hint, we aren't policy lynching today (although springlullaby isn't a bad choice for other reasons). Put up a genuine case on someone or get back on sotty.

This is a town post.

[Amrun]

Okay, it's obvious no one will lynch Junpei with me today.

VOTE: springlullaby

A lurker lynch is lame, but I don't like EITHER the sottyrulez or ace wagons.

If forced to choose closer to deadline, I will choose to vote sotty over ace.

Vi, why do VIs sheep your post restrictions? lol

[Amrun]

I just think that post of Ace's displays pro-town reasoning to back up my lolgut.

I just don't think he's scum.

[Amrun]

You know what I'm willing to see where this wagon goes,

Unvote, Vote: springlullaby

. The timing of Shift's vote still leaves a bad taste in my mouth but I don't think it has any bearing on springlullaby's alignment and this game has been in a stall.

In no way does this mean we should be forgetting about sotty.

[Amrun]

So, spring, you really, truly think that your vote is a good one - at 3 days away from deadline.

Yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh NO.


Also, my position has switched; I would rather lynch ace over sotty.

Springlullaby just became not-a-lurker-lynch, though.

[Amrun]

In post 85, Amrun wrote:Why does Junpei look all right to you?No follow up.I don't think this question was ever answered, actually. SL, please to be answering this.

And, spring, you want me to answer this question?

SERIOUSLY?

Die now.

[Amrun]

I commented on the post with a frowny face. It kind of singlehandedly erased my good feelings, in combination with one other post that I commented on before. One terribad post can be explained away, but...

Do not misunderstand. He is not a high suspect of mine. I think he's more likely town, actually, but my townread on him has decreased to just barely leaning town. My townread on sottyrulez surpasses it.

I still don't think ace is the optimal lynch. My optimal lynch is being ignored.

[Amrun]

Are you capable of discerning where my vote is?

[Amrun]

I can't bring myself to re-explain the entire thread to you.

You're very wrong. I'll just leave it at that for now. My patience is expended.

[Amrun]

Junpei, springlullaby, Shift, fishy all on the scummy side of the scale in varying degrees. ALL previously noted. Still null on anxiety.

[Amrun]

SL, you said "same question back at you" earlier and that is the only question I could think of.

I do like your catchup content, though you had to be dragged into it.

VOTE: ace

Junpei's current posting is just the most fabricated crap.

But nobody will wagon him with me for some reason. Ugh.

[Amrun]

Vi, I'm looking at wagon viability, quite obviously. I've pushed Junpei since early on and never got a wagon on him, let alone t-3.


BUT skimming through, perhaps Shift is more viable.

I'MMA TRY IT

VOTE: Shift

[Amrun]

@amrun - why do you think shift is more viable than junpei?

Maybe because I pushed Junpei for like 15 pages and not one person ever joined me, to my recollection?

That being said, if Junpei DOES have viability, I am ALL FOR IT. So far, I think me and you are the only ones willing to vote for him.

Sotty, would you vote Junpei? You mentioned liking my post/vote on him some time ago.

[Amrun]

Why are you calling yourself scum, gnr? I'm confused.

[Amrun]

VOTE: ace

Getting down to the wire here.

[Amrun]

*scowls*

Your biggest beef with SL seems to be centered on the (admittedly strange) "reverse chainsaw defense" thing.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but that seems to only be a big issue if GNR is scum with sl, and gnr is supposedly masons with you.

[Amrun]

Oh, my b.

So you think GNR is scum, Vi?

[Amrun]

WOW and you're not voting for ace... Fail.

[Amrun]

ace, you need to vote for sl....

UGH

VOTE: springlullaby

[Amrun]

Junpei, scum can't buddy each other?

I was v/la and need to catch up on this thread.

I want to comment that sottyrulez is a really weird scumkill because several people suspected them. It's just... strange. I want to note their suspicions for possible threatkills. (This is a note to myself for to-do-list for this game.) Off of the top of my head, I recall the supposed 1v1 with Crab Canon, but there is no way CC-scum would do something so obvious and stupid. Also CC is town.

[Amrun]

CC is town

Why? CC has gone up on my scumdar due to sotty's flip, I just haven't had time to review his ISO.

I said it in a lot more detail before, but they had no reason to push Vi as town and they did anyway.

[Amrun]

Ohhhh the timer changes! Clever.

Well, what an exciting votecount. I'll try hard to get some access nearer deadline, but this is probably my last post.

*sniffs post*
*moves away from fishy smell*

Agree with this.

[Amrun]

Yeah, but at the time, you were voting for springlullaby, who is now confirmed town. Most of the progression of that wagon has gems from you like this:

Wow. Springlullaby just gained a 4 vote wagon in just over a page, for lurking. She has been lurking all game. This feels very much like a distraction from either ace or sotty.

Your turnaround to voting SL didn't happen in a way that reads as organic to me.

[Amrun]

Fish is more than likely town, as is Ace.

Why?

[Amrun]

Junpei, stop rolefishing.

[Amrun]

ouch

[Amrun]

Why are we stepping on my tail? I don't get it.

[Amrun]

You think I'M not participating, Vi? People have prods out, including your #1 suspect, and I'M not participating?

I don't understand.

[Amrun]

Vi, I think you're the one not participating. I have NO IDEA what is going on in your mind right now.

GNR's response seems kind of reasonable, and ace's new waffling on "possible scenarios" is extremely unhelpful.

It's left to you to sort out the situation, but instead you wiggle one hand.

[Amrun]

Vi didn't explicitly state this but I believe his theory is that sotty was vigged and scum with GNR shot him, hence only one kill.

Can you explain this a little further?


At this point, GNR seems like a fairly solid wagon.

I'd still be happy to see Junpei strung up, though I'm having trouble determining if his theory is something he believes in SO STRONGLY that it could conceivably come from town. It seems more like a crutch to not contribute anything useful, to me.

[Amrun]

@Amrun - Obviously if he believes GNR to be a BP and scum, there must be a non-scum killing source. Where's the most obvious place for a scumkill that would be blocked? Yeah.

Uh, there's a glaring flaw here.

If GNR were scum, he would advise his scumteam not to shoot the player he knows to be bp...

[Amrun]

@Amrun - Obviously if he believes GNR to be a BP and scum, there must be a non-scum killing source. Where's the most obvious place for a scumkill that would be blocked? Yeah.

Uh, there's a glaring flaw here.

If GNR were scum, he would advise his scumteam not to shoot the player he knows to be bp...

[Amrun]

You think GNR-scum, knowing you are bp, shot you at night?

That's really what you think, Vi?

[Amrun]

I think Penn and Teller make perfect sense as a neighborhood, so I don't really care, tbh.

[Amrun]

yeah but i don't really see a third magician having a neighbour ability.

Yeah, so what's your alternative explanation?

This is silly.


Actually, I think it might be good for the vig to claim now. If he does (and exists), we could possibly confirm gnr as town.

Idk though. Still weighing it out.

[Amrun]

Thought about it. Not a good time for vig to claim. Too many other possible factors.

If you seriously think a SCUM GNR would shoot you, Vi, then I don't know what else to say to you.

Go to your QT. Explain what the hell you mean. I'm getting frustrated.

[Amrun]

Why you would be frustrated with me I have no idea.

[Amrun]

Oh ftr I also think ace is town.

[Amrun]

She seems to have a pretty specific beef with me, though, stepping on my tail and such.


As for ace, after the things I noted on day 1, I like how he has handled the situation today. I mean, he's done some things that confused me or been wrong, or whatever, but he seems pretty genuine in tone.

p-edit: What I'm missing about this theory is how she thinks both that sotty was a vig shot AND that gnr is scum. lolwut

[Amrun]

I'd still be happy to see Junpei strung up, though I'm having trouble determining if his theory is something he believes in SO STRONGLY that it could conceivably come from town. It seems more like a crutch to not contribute anything useful, to me.

[Amrun]

Not sure why you want to stay on gnr.

[Amrun]

Okay, can we just ignore this and lynch junpei, please?

Vote: Junpei

[Amrun]

saulres still not scum.

[Amrun]

So you think Riggs is Sk, and you vote him over your scum candidates? why?

[Amrun]

Why did you just make a case on dead town, junpei?

[Amrun]

I saw that, but it's completely pointless. You could always fabricate that after the fact.

[Amrun]

No, but I just think scum or town could have both made that post he just made.

[Amrun]

I haven't read this thread since I last posted because it was kind of boring me and then I come back and see a freaking awful premature claim.

Why did you think scum would know you are a VT, anxiety? Please answer this question.

[Amrun]

For instance, I think it's pretty curious that Amrun still hasn't come in here and posted a quick case on Junpei even though she's been posting all over the site since I asked.

I didn't even read your question because I was attending to things that needed my attention elsewhere. I think it's pretty curious that you asked when all my reasons for suspecting him are in my ISO anyway. Let me quote them for you, and explain them a bit.

Saulres is null at best, and in fact, I get town vibes from him. The scum here is Junpei. After CC and Vi voted, Junpei very clearly fabricated reasons to suspect saulres. It read to me as looking for an excuse to get on the biggest wagon - and, as ace noted, the "no quicklynch please" indicates that Junpei expected this wagon to result in a lynch. All of Junpei's subsequent responses have not read genuine to me.

VOTE: Junpei

This is still my biggest reason for suspecting Junpei. His posts and pushes don't feel genuine. He doesn't follow them as I think a townie would.

Junpei, stop rolefishing.

In the ace/vi/riggs mess, he never commented on it, really, to give STANCES. He just showed a keen interest in roles and left conclusions up in the air. Pretty scummy.

I'd still be happy to see Junpei strung up, though I'm having trouble determining if his theory is something he believes in SO STRONGLY that it could conceivably come from town. It seems more like a crutch to not contribute anything useful, to me.

Again, more reactive playing. He doesn't really say much of anything in his posts, but he fluffs them up to make them sound important. I think a bit of bluster is just part of his playstyle, but how long can he mask the zero content? I think it's intentional.

No, but I just think scum or town could have both made that post he just made.

This is a prime example. Crab Canon, I think you misunderstood me, originally. It's not a scumtell that his post could come from town or scum. It's just part of a wider arc. He put so much effort into that silly post, reconstructing his scumhunting after the fact, and I see none of that effort going into ACTUAL SCUMHUNTING IN REAL TIME. He's trying to look like he is contributing rather than actually contributing. For example, if I had been asked that same question, I would have answered with a sentence or two. Instead, he gets very defensive and constructs this elaborate line of thinking from the very beginning that he conveniently never posted before now.

In short, I just don't see any pro-town intent from Junpei. It seems to me as if he is posting to exist and avoid attention rather than posting to find scum.

[Amrun]

Vi, funny you shoulud talk of moonbeams...


Luxury's posts are so OUT THERE that I don't know if scum would be that off the wall or not, but I have a hard time seeing that come from town either.

[Amrun]

No, luxury, it's not your reads that are weird. It's just in general, you're very wordy and I don't really understand why you're coming to the conclusions you're coming to, and you never satisfactorily explained the SK thing.

Also something else I noticed about your posts but don't think saying exactly what is pro-town.

VP: I just didn't read this thread. The game was boring me so I took a bit of a break from it. It's really not at all strange.

[Amrun]

scum lynches make me happy yayyyyy

even though it was scum, presumably, snake's entrance to the wagon was still terrible

[Amrun]

Vi, I still don't follow.

A RBing SK is weird and I see no reason that it's true. I see LESS reason that Anxiety is town after being supposedly RB by fishy.

In fact, seeing as GNR did not flip what we expected, I am not sure if I can trust you and think YOU might be the bp sk.

VOTE:

[Amrun]

He didn't flip Penn or Teller.

I think it's POSSIBLE Vi is SK, but even if I had proof of that, I'd still be voting for likely scum instead of possible sk.

I've suspected junpei since day 1... Sorry for expecting you all not to have the memory of a goldfish.

[Amrun]

Inconsistent suspicions... Yes, I can see that. I understand that.

Hmmmmmmmm.

VOTE: fishy

Okay, Vi. We'll see.

[Amrun]

I'm happy with a Vi townread, given saulres' claim, also with a saulres townread. At worst, saulres is an sk, so I'm not interested in lynching that for today.

Mod and all: V/LA for the weekend, but my computer decided that it won't even start up in safe mode, so I won't be as active from here on out even after that. I will be around periodically through the rest of the night and Friday night, but not at all on Saturday and Sunday. I will be posting after that, but I won't have a computer at home so I can't react to things as I might have otherwise. Please be patient.

[Amrun]

I don't mind claiming.

There is confusion over whether we're nameclaiming or not, so I won't, for now.

I'm a VT, though.


Anxiety's comment about mafia and town sharing a kill really struck me as off. It's too sure. I believe he knows which one is mafia and which one is town, due to being mafia himself.

If, indeed, one is mafia and one is town, it's obvious who I think is which.

[Amrun]

You're all fucking idiots.

Just as Snake said, "amazing" is a passive ability. It does NOTHING, as far as I know. When I confirmed with DDD, I asked, "Am I a VT?" and he replied along the lines of, "Define it however you like."

How the fuck is Snake's rolecop result on me a guilty? That doesn't even make sense, Luxury, and that's a scummy push to make it so.

He got back "amazing," which, as he says, since he has it too, is a passive ability that does nothing. =/= guilty

As far as I'm concerned, rolecop is in and of itself a scummy ability.

[Amrun]

You Are Amazing is my only ability besides voting. And IF it gives me some sort of role, then I am unaware of it and the PM does not specify and neither would DDD.

I figured it was some sort of flavor troll just like this. I've just been playing the game as a VT.

[Amrun]

Except he didn't claim flavor cop derp?

[Amrun]

I might as well say that I'm The Amazing Kreskin. I don't know any more about him than is in my role PM, which is that he's some sort of mentalist from the 70s.

[Amrun]

No, he claimed that he got my passive ability as a result. He did. He called himself a ROLECOP.

He obviously is a real rolecop. The question is his alignment.

[Amrun]

I don't understand the point you are trying to prove.

[Amrun]

It says I'm amazing. That's it, literally.

I never had a townread on GNR. I said that Vi's theory - that scum shot at her while having very good reason to think she was bulletproof , if GNR was scum as she was postulating - was extremely unlikely.

I don't know where all this defending GNR shit is coming from. I was saying Vi's theory (as I understood it, and I was seeking clarification in case I was wrong) was pretty stupid. That's not the same thing as saying GNR was town. I happened to think Sotty was the scum shot, so it was obvious I didn't ascribe to that theory.

I still think it's really unlikely that scum shot Vi precisely because GNR knew or suspected she was bulletproof. It's POSSIBLE, given how hard she was pushing on GNR, but unlikely.

To be honest, I never had particularly strong feelings about GNR. At several points during the day, I thought he was the best lynch, but at other times, I was more interested in probing Vi's alignment.

After everything has shaken out, Vi is pretty clearly town. I like knowing that. It makes the headache of her post restriction a lot easier to deal with.

[Amrun]

Not sure why you want to stay on gnr.

seems like strong feelings here. You were repeatedly going throughout the day saying how you thought it was impossible for him to be scum because of vig shots and etc. At least own up to it.

Except I didn't do that.

[Amrun]

As saulres just quoted, I mostly supported a GNR lynch.

HOWEVER, I did not understand how people ascribing to the theory-that-didn't-make-sense, ie ace, for example, whom 718 addressed, continued to think gnr was scum UNDER THEIR OWN THOERY.

it seriously makes no sense. tell me it does, with a straight face.

[Amrun]

Btw, I'm sorry for screwing up the order or something. I don't get how that could have screwed anything up, but sorry anyway.

[Amrun]

The post I quoted was about 100 posts after what salures quoted. There were many others as well. I am just too busy at the moment to go back over them. You most definitely were knocking on the GNR lynch yesterday.

You're wrong.

I was NOT knocking on the GNR lynch. I just re-read my ISO to make sure I didn't accidentally give the wrong impression.

The only thing that can be construed as "knocking" the lynch is promoting a Junpei lynch. In fact, my opinion never wavered from the quote that saulres posted - GNR lynch was okay, but I thought Junpei was better because I was more sure about him and it was a read I came to organically rather than my gnr read, which was basically trusting Vi about GNR's shenanigans in the QT.

Several times, I said that GNR did not make sense as scum within the theory that scum shot Vi. That doesn't mean I thought GNR was town. If you, or anyone else, continue to think this, then it is your reading comprehension at fault. I was criticizing the theory that ace and Vi shared. It's still a stupid theory, and if scum actually did that then they should be ashamed of themselves.

If people go about spouting off retarded theories, then I'm going to criticize them. That's just how it is going to go. People's theories, and their bases, speak to their motivations. In this case, I determined that they are both town. That's not always the case with stupid theories.

[Amrun]

I've said several times that it is a passive ability - what it does, I have no idea. My guess is nothing, and that it's a flavor addition, due to my name.

It MIGHT do nothing. I've just played assuming it does nothing. The mod wouldn't answer, so it's meant to be a mystery.

[Amrun]

Maybe because it isn't a real ability and I actually forgot it existed?

How the hell is Junpei town from this?

Luxury is scum.

[Amrun]

herpderp shift has been here since the beginning

and I doubt the scum had a bp

ugh i'm doing my nails typingi shard

[Amrun]

ONCE AGAIN

THOSE POSTS ARE SAYING VI'S THEORY AS I UNDERSTOOD IT IS DUMB

NOT THAT GNR IS TOWN

BECAUSE SAYING GNR IS TOWN IN THAT SITUATION ASSUMES SCUM SHOT VI

AND I DO NOT THINK THAT HAPPENED

READING COMPREHENSION, PEOPLE

[Amrun]

Also the main reason I think Luxury is scum is NOT for early game shenanigans, though having Shift as a scummy read from the start certainly doesn't help.

It's basically how Luxury explains their reads. They do not read genuine. In some cases, they plain do not make sense. The way they are followed (or not followed) do not read as an organic thought process to me. It's more of a "pushing mislynches" feeling rather than a feeling of trying to actually get scum lynched, though.

Reading back, it's not quite as slam dunk as I thought a couple of posts ago, but I do think Luxury is scum.

[Amrun]

I didn't say your townreads. I meant your scumreads. Your townreads are, for the most part, unexplained, but I can accept your explanation for Junpei that I asked for. It's actually making me rethink myself.

[Amrun]

v/la reminder

[Amrun]

@Amrun: you seemed to push against that theory very hard yesterday, when IIRC noone was really pushing it or voting based off it. Why?

As I explained earlier, no town player should just accept people's idiotic, hole-filled theories. Sometimes, people pushing bad theories are scum trying to get away with poor logic to push mislynches. Sometimes, it's just wrong town. Until you get to the bottom of it, you can't know. And actually several people were voting off of it, as far as I know. At least ace and Vi, bare minimum. I determined they were both town but that doesn't make the theory any less unlikely.

Still v/la, just wanted to pop in while I had a few minutes.

[Amrun]

I think we should investigate Junpei.

BOTH kills were on obvtown.

I'm surprised to be alive today, and Junpei not cooperating with saulres on my death indicates Junpei-scum.

[Amrun]

Amrun is still the main person I'd support investigation on

Are you this clueless and out of touch? Really?

[Amrun]

I WAS ALREADY INVESTIGATED

READ THE GAME BETTER, SCUM

[Amrun]

Oh, I don't care if I'm rolecopped again. I misunderstood.

Go ahead.

Ordinarily, I might balk because it should be used on someone else who has not been rolecopped yet - and it really SHOULD - however, as it is, I am in danger of being mislynched, and that is more harmful to town than losing out the information on someone else.

If that will ease your minds, go ahead. The issue is that I will just return the voting ability, so I don't know what that will prove. Scum can vote, too.

However, if I am rolecopped today and then again tomorrow, that will prove that I have no other abilities.

Just realize what you're committing to - to waste two days worth of information. If that will clear me, then it will achieve something, but we should still be cognizant of what we are wasting.

It isn't likely scum will let a town rolecop live too much longer anyway, if snake is indeed town. So it might all be for naught, and the chance to gain something today might be squandered.

I leave the choice up to the town, since I am the suspect here, but I just want everyone to think about the issue from all sides.

[Amrun]

1249 makes sense to me. I am no longer sure of a scumread on that slot. Bah.

I think Anxiety is scum.

After that, my next highest read is Junpei.

After that, PoE says one of Luxury/Snake.

[Amrun]

No comment on my post about the rolecops?

[Amrun]

How will a second investigation prove anything?

Only a third proves something.

I'm saying I'm fine with an investigation since I have nothing to hide; HOWEVER, I can see this being a potential sword of Damocles and I will not be villanized for wasting resources. If town wants to do this, then that's fine, but they absolutely should consider all angles. Considering the pros and cons of an action is not fencesitting.

[Amrun]

That's actually an excellent, excellent idea, saulres.

I'll tell what order my Amazing is but I know my own alignment and I'd like to hear Snake's answer first (and also he has another ability and I don't, so who knows).

[Amrun]

Okay yeah that ate cannot be ignored.

Associative tells with junpei defending too.

VOTE: anxiety

[Amrun]

Why the unvote? Do you just not want to move too quickly?


My Amazing comes first btw.

[Amrun]

I always play that way.

I suspected anxiety before you ever voted for him, so quite frankly, s my d.

I wagon hop to see what shakes out - always, especally early game. Wagons are super informative. This is consistent throughout my games.

I have explained myself about gnr until I was blue in the face. This is getting stupid. You don't vote in the middle of sorting out claims, and Junpei has always been my strongest scum read (until eclipsed by anxiety), so I was pushing that. It is what it is.

I would never commit such a stupid scumtell. My scumgame is far beyond that basic level.

[Amrun]

I have a wiki. Use it. It will tell you which game(s) I have been nominated for scummies for and which I won etc, all with links.

I didn't know my vote put him at L-2. Tbh I thought mine was vote #2.

Your attack on anxiety is perfectly valid, whether it was "serious" or not. I felt comfortable following your vote with mine due to that, my own reasons, the roleblock, and my strong townread on you.

[Amrun]

Your posts didn't indicate that, anxiety. You said "I give up" and then disappeared.

[Amrun]

bp vest likely insignificant. It's a holdover from older meta. Now it's more common to say just bulletproof, but old habits die hard.

[Amrun]

v/la until Monday

[Amrun]

Also something else I noticed about your posts but don't think saying exactly what is pro-town.

Amrun, that quote was directed at Luxury. Do you think it's pro-town now to say what you were thinking then?

No, I don't.

Catching up now.

[Amrun]

There's not really "so much unexplained stuff". N1 is explained, N2 is explained. It's only N3 that isn't explained.

Doesn't mean Junpei's not scum, I just want to clarify what seems to be a misperception.

Amrun:

I wagon hop to see what shakes out - always, especally early game. Wagons are super informative.

After CC and Vi voted, Junpei very clearly fabricated reasons to suspect saulres. It read to me as looking for an excuse to get on the biggest wagon <snip>

VOTE: Junpei

In the first quote you defend yourself as town by claiming your wagon hopping is a town strategy.

In the second you vote Junpei for doing the exact same thing.

Reconcile please?

...
There's nothing to reconcile. Wagon hopping can be a pro-town strategy and I use it as such. Awkwardly clambering onto a wagon in a way that reads as opportunistic is not at all the same thing.

I understand where you're coming from in relation to Crabs hydra dissonace and contradiction in stances taken but I've played in a lot of hydras myself and a change of read or reversal of read is very very common and understandable as town. I still very much feel we should be lynching between Anxiety and Amrun today though not including the roleblocking on Anxiety and him being scum making sense with the missing kills his play reads as town so I'm uncertain on him to a degree and would prefer an Amrun lynch over him at the moment. The fact that she never claimed her amazing ability until after Snake stated she had it still continues to read as incredibly off-putting as does inclusion of an ability that she 'doesn't know what it does'.

Also right now our strongest town-read by a long way is Saulres though I still think Junpei is likely town due to the claim as well,

mafia having direct control to two kills is incredibly overpowered

and inclusion of re-director makes a great deal of sense.

Vote: Amrun

How do you know mafia has a normal kill?



The CC mess was boring and completely useless. Nothing even resembles a scumslip there.

The only thing worth noting from it is that Junpei massively fencesat and made himself look even scummier.

[Amrun]

It's just a tiny thing. I don't think it will do much good and it could do harm.

[Amrun]

How could sharing those things hurt?

[Amrun]

I have a theory...

Show of hands: How many people yesterday thought that second to Vi, Ace was the most townie of the rest of us remaining?

I did, and stated as much.

[Amrun]

It depends on who it was between, tbh.

Between anxiety and junpei, probably anxiety.

Between anyone else and junpei ... probably junpei.

His claim does make it tricky, but he's the scummiest player by far. We could lose a vig, but we're getting down in numbers and an uncontrollable vig is getting to be more risk than reward. I trust saulres. I don't trust Junpei. MAYBE after Junpei is gone, saulres can vig properly.

[Amrun]

Idk why you would assume here wasn't two remaining scum. 3 scum is standard for minis. Not set in stone, of course, but standard.

[Amrun]

Amrun, what do you think happened to the missing shot on N1?

There are lots of possibilities, but the one I am thinking of has to do with that thing I wont talk about just yet.

If the scum has no kill, then I agree that 3 scum remaining is likely. However, I'm going to go with more standard assumptions until proven otherwise.

[Amrun]

I was starting to doubt you guys, you know... Less so, now. Yay. VP/Juls town is a definite boon.

[Amrun]

What are they - or at the least, who do you want to hang today?

[Amrun]

I just wanted to know who you want to die. If nothing has changed, okay.

[Amrun]

if i make it to lylo, i am going to self-hammer.

That's playing against wincon and I will report you.

[Amrun]

Where else could the second kill have possibly come from?

An SK?


I've thoroughly explained why I'm voting Anxiety over Junpei at the moment. That's weak.

[Amrun]

saulres has been incredibly inconsistent throughout the game and i get the feeling he hasn't been scumhunting and has only been posting to look like a townie,

I don't think any of those statements are true.

[Amrun]

I also dont like the 4nxi3ty row either while it is going against his wincon if he did self hammer, threatning to report him at this point is also pushing to the point of trying very hard to make someone look so bad that people ignore you and vote for the other.

Idiotic comment.

The things some people have used as scumtells in this game make me want to pull someone else's hair out.


For the record, I did not report Anxiety and never intended unless he self-hammered. I don't report every self-hammerer, but someone who does it while full-well knowing it's against his win condition out of spite is another thing altogether.

[Amrun]

You want him to respond to what, exactly?

[Amrun]

VOTE: Junpei

let's do this thang.

Only willing to lynch anxiety or junpei.... After thinking about it, I've decided that Junpei is my strongest read and that that outweighs his claim.

[Amrun]

Junpei is my strongest read and that that outweighs his claim.

Do you mean you don't believe his claim, or you want to lynch him despite his claim?

The latter.

I've discussed why, in detail, so it should be obvious.

If you're going to lynch me, get it over with.

No one is going to listen to me, and this game will likely be lost because of it.

I'm having sudden gut siezings over Crab Canon, whose vote should be on Junpei right now but is not.

[Amrun]

Read the freaking game.

I already explained.

I'm DONE explaining.

I think it's Junpei + one from the VT pool.

[Amrun]

saulres, I believe Junpei isRoy. I just think he's scum.

[Amrun]

This is all you've done to 'explain it' Amrun, so you can continue yelling and saying you've explained it over and over again but your reasoning for no longer believing Jumpeis claim is likely town is that you read him as scummy without explaining what about his play you consider as scummy.

Seriously? I've been explaining why Junpei is scummy from day 1. Try again. bzzzzt.

[Amrun]

I can wish Junpei would be lynched until the cows come home but it doesn't appear to be mattering.

VOTE: anxiety

There are some town twinges I get from him, but in the end, he was blocked on a night we have a missing kill, is in the vt pool, and not at all a bad candidate for lynch.

[Amrun]

I fucking knew Junpei was scum since day 1.

CC was trickier, but def gave me weirdvibes as noted.

Confised by the fact the game is still on....

My bet for last scum is snake.

Claim action, saulres?

[Amrun]

Wait, I'm not actually confused the game is still on, nvm.

Last night was awesome, though.

[Amrun]

Wait, saulres, did you really go after luxury? :/

[Amrun]

I thought Luxury might be a doctor. When discussing what might have stopped shots, they totally missed that possibility. I thought it might have been a docslip.

[Amrun]

This game was never breakable by flavor. Ever. If it was, I'd have a magician fakeclaim as scum. Instead I have only my actual role. Idk if he is a psychic or not but I guess he is if you say so.

Don't let that bother you; DDD would never do that. He's an experienced layer and mod and that's a really dumb mistake it would be hard to make.

Base your decision off of play.

[Amrun]

Wait, if you thought Lux was doctor, why did you shoot them?

[Amrun]

Same difference, gun, tiger.

My best guess for tonight is that Junpei/CC were crosskills.

[Amrun]

And as it's lylo, I feel onigated to say that if you knew I thought Luxury was a doctor and you also know you killed them yourself, that's a pretty gigantic point in my favor.

[Amrun]

I can't solve the flavor. Either they crosskilled, or Junpei somhow ate himself and the scumkill was CC.

Given the tiger flavor, that's popssible - but why now?

[Amrun]

GIVE REAL STANCES, SCUM

STOP LETTING TOWN DIRECT YOU

YOU HAVE TO HAVE OPINIONS

Just as I thought, he latched right onto that stupid psychics thing.

Can we just lynch him plz

[Amrun]

This is LyLo. Fencesitting and vague wishy-washy accusations are not going to cut it.

[Amrun]

Obviously I want you to investigate saulres, but I don't really care if you investigate me either if that floats your boat.

You think the scumteam got both a regular kill AND a vig kill?

[Amrun]

If you think that saulres and Junpei are both scum, then you think scum has a kill and a vig, completely uncontested.

Why then did they submit different tiger kills some nights, so the kill failed?

[Amrun]

Another note for saulres: Junpei tried to kill me with the tiger.

You know what?

This is dumb. I am ready to vote snake. I just don't see any other course of action.

[Amrun]

I'm a little nervous, though.

[Amrun]

SAULRES YOU'RE ON

I think I'm going to vote snake

If you don't hammer

we're both town


VOTE: snake

[Amrun]

oh wait i kinda forgot about the rolecop.

i don't really care; no way both vigs are freaking scum

[Amrun]

Uh, why would you not hammer?

What do you think will happen? IF he posts, snake will just omgus me and you'll be left with the same choice.

[Amrun]

Okay, yeah, sort of stupid question. But I just don't understand - you're fencesitting just as thoroughly as Snake.

State your opinions.

[Amrun]

I mean, you're town, and I'm right - but it still does no one any good to waffle about this.

What are you thinking?

Your choice ultimately comes down to this: which one of me and snake is scum?

If you think it's me, throw down the vote; if you're right, you'll have most likely won the game. If you're wrong, snake will come in and hammer.

What at this point can change ANYTHING?

[Amrun]

All the information you need is here in the thread. This is not the time for NEW INFORMATION, though knock yourself out I suppose... It's just dragging it on for nothing. I'd like to finish this game.

[Amrun]

ebwop: if you vote me nad you're right, you'll DEFINITELY have won the game.

That's what it comes down to: you're confirmed town, and your vote decides the game.

[Amrun]

I'm not trying to intimidate you; I'm just a little frustrated because you've played so tight fisted at times. This is not the time for tight-fistedness.

What I am trying to get out of you is WHAT YOU'RE WAITING FOR. You partially answered that question just now, but not until now. I wanted to know what information you felt you were lacking.

I don't necessarily want you to vote. I just want you to be open about your thoughts.

And also I'll be v/la this weekend and I wanted at least some idea of how you were leaning or it would drive me nuts.

[Amrun]

I get it; I play the same way sometimes, but I'm saying that now, at LyLo, the time for that is over, in my opinion.

My conversation is done. I have presented my cases, and my defenses. It is now up to you.

In summation:

-I sort of botched my claim but I don't care at all; that whole thing was stupid. Up to you though.
-I was riding Junpei from day 1 and tried to get him lynched every single day
-Junpei subsequently tried to kill me
-You know I thought Luxury was doctor, and yet scum never killed Luxury

Snake, on the other hand, has done NOTHING all game. He has an inherently scummy role (rolecop) which wouldn't have served town at all this game. Think about it. Junpei was scum, and yet his role was exactly as he said; he controlled the tiger with you. Snake has coasted and done nothing. Even in LyLo, he is fencesitting to the extreme. He's waiting for one of us to attack the other out of paranoia and leaving his options open.

[Amrun]

A don't like to read into night kills much as it is full of WIFOM as you said. He is certainly lurking a lot as we drift to the deadline though. I'd rather lynch someone who I think is scum though. Perhaps when he is replaced we could get a deadline extension? I think that would be best

8.) If a replacement is required within the second week of a deadline period, 24 hours per RL day it takes to find a replacement will be added to the deadline of the current day.

This rule suggests we won't have much time.

11.) If a player fails to pick up their prod within 48 hours they will be replaced.

This rule suggests that Snake has 41 more hours about until he is replaced. So I guess hoping for a replacement isn't going to help since due to the deadline, we'll get... at max 2 days extra? I don't see the replacement coming up with analysis/reads in that short of time and discussion and us deciding if it is town/scum. So I would rather pursue other leads (Anxiety) and hope we hit scum and give the replacement more time that way.

We have 65 hours left, so you will post tomorrow, Snake. No more "I'm busy". I was hoping that we'd be able to replace you and get an extension, but if you're going to prod dodge, then you will die.

Also, I am preferring an Anxiety lynch right now, and I don't see a comprehensive case on Amrun ANYWHERE. Can someone please point it out to me, because I would like to see it.

Saulres, I am not pointing out my issue with your case because I want Snake to respond to it. Any activity at all from snake would be nice actually.

Well the main reason I want Snake to answer is because I want content and interaction out of him. Tomorrow I will point out what I don't like about it if he hasn't, I don't know what time, but I will.

This series of quotes is obvious scum frustration.

Especially note 1548; "if you prod dodge, you will die," he says, even though he advocates not lynching snake. Obvious coaching. Also he never pointed out those flaws.


In interest of fairness, Junpei did also express that he preferred an anxiety lynch over mine that day, but was willing to hammer.

[Amrun]

Tbh, I mixed up games and was thinking 2 scum. That obviously makes no sense. My thoughts were just a little jumbled.

*rolls eyes at snake*

[Amrun]

Missed that. I'm a mentalist who became popular in the 1970s from tv.

[Amrun]

Btw, saul, the reason you were kept alive is obvious in this one case. I agree that at times, this can be the key to the game, but not here.

You were kept alive because once you were dead, it raised the chances of Junpei being scum (since everyone seemed to already suspect him, plus the speculation of one scum in the vigs).

I was kept alive because after the "amazing" thing, scum has been trying to mislynch me ever since and I was the clear bet to be left alive seeing what remained.

[Amrun]

That's always the case, though. Everything is WIFOM. Just telling you what I think so it is considered. I'm trying MY hardest to win this game, too, and speaking your mind never hurts.

[Amrun]

yaaaaay town wins

[Amrun]

Man, it was satisfying to see that Junpei flip.

What did the Amazing passive do? I must know!!!!



I totally agree with Juls about both Anxiety and Saulres. I'd be happy to play with both again.

Anxiety, you really frustrated me a couple of times during the game, but as long as you laern from that, it's fine. Everyone has those compulsions occasionally.

Saulres, why are you quitting?! I've played with you both times and enjoyed it both times! You are improving at a very rapid pace and I'd love to see how good you can get. You did a really good job this game!

[Amrun]

You improved so much, though. Being wrong sometimes doesn't make you bad. There's lots of speculation involved in the game no matter what. Speculation cant' always be right.

I just want to say again that I really enjoyed the flavor of this game, DDD. It was incredibly creative and meta-defying, so that's awesome. Design more games!

[Amrun]

Although I can't blame you for wanting to lynch Amrun

*pout*