Open 326: Pick Your Poison (Ende des Speils!)

[Hoppster]

So before deciding replacing in I speed-skimmed the thread, and I've got to say, one of the main factors in me replacing in was this post:

Alright, this is a wall hidden by spoilers for bullet points on why Maruchan is scummy...

Spoiler:

What she said, I am curious as to your lack of RVS participation. I would understand it if you had told us you dislike RVS and therefore refuse to participate or something, but you said nothing of the sort, and even was the first participator of RVS in your first game on-site.

Just curious because I find scum usually like to save their votes until they see the most likely-to-succeed bandwagon before hoping it. (then again, conservative town hold their votes too, so I am not saying your lack of one makes you scummy)

Piggy backs onto my question of Saulres, but then is basically distancing himself from it. This post unnecessary since I had already asked Saulres the question unless he was adding on for more pressure, BUT WAIT it's not pressure if you let them know you don't think it's scummy. Not to mention, he went as far as to check an ongoing game for Saulres' RVS meta, which he found contradictory but still distanced himself from it. So this is just really bad. It gives him "cred" because he was involved in the questioning, while he's distanced because he never said he found it "scummy".

Spoiler:

VOTE: MARUCHAN

Doesn't like it if people dont participate in RVS, and doesn't like it when people do participate, or start, RQS. Whether or not someone wants to spew questions, the conversation will start eventually. Probably in the wrong direction.

if you had READ my post before yours, I LOVE RQS, and have STARTED it myself in the past. I just know a particular player in this game absolutely hates it, and will make a case against anyone starting it, that will end in their eventual demise.

I like the vote though, keep em comin!

To be honest this whole post is bad because there is no way Maruchan would have gotten lynched SOLELY on Lane's RVS suspicion that was a weak vote anyway, but seeing Maruchan get what seems to me as worked up is suspicious. I get that he wanted to clear things up, but he seems rather adamant about getting his point across and showing Lane that they are wrong only to turn around and say he "likes" the vote and to keep them coming. This response isn't a town response in the fact that it isn't genuine. When I read this I immediately thought scum faking a lack of caring...badly.

Spoiler:

We can't keep this double standards! Either we have to say that Saulres caring if he appears scummy is a SCUM tell, in which case my lack of caring is a null or town tell. OR we have to say that Maruchan's lack of caring how he appears is a null or scum tell, in which case Saulres' caring is a TOWN tell.

Pick one, you can't have it both ways. It can't be scummy to care while being scummy to not care.

This theory he presented is wrong. He's basically pushing his opinion and theory as fact to discredit the accusations against himself AND Saulres. Stating that at least one of them has to have caring/not caring as a town tell. This just supports my theory of possible bussing earlier as it adds to Maruchan/Saulres scumbuddies.

Spoiler:

To maybe explain what I think about caring vs. non-caring:

If all the scum don't care, then they won't fight to stay alive, meaning they'll roll over and lose. So they have to care.
If all the town don't care, then they won't fight to stay alive, meaning they'll roll over and lose. So they have to care.

The way I see it, everyone who's playing for their win condition, at least in this setup, should care about if they're going to cause their side to lose by being seen as anything other than town. So caring is a nulltell, at least for me. And so is not caring, because it doesn't say what side you're on -- it just says what kind of player you are. One which is a detriment to their side.

Anyway that's how I see it.

UNVOTE
Vote: Marachun

because I'd rather play with people who are trying to win.

OMGUS OMGUS OMGUS OMGUS

oh wait, my vote is already on you.
So that would make YOURS the OMGUS. My bad.

Feeler and amplifier post. He quoted Saulres just to make a point about OMGUS(badly IMO) with the sarcasm and the capitalization he's just begging for people to notice Saulres instead of him.

Spoiler:

Yeah Page 4 doesn't need all these lengthy posts, it kind of makes me feel like scum are overloading to look like they have more content than they do. It's really useless to type all that much, not enough has happened. In fact walls at this point are drawing my attention more negatively than positively towards those players. Walls are to be used when necessary...not frivolously.

So its a bad thing if the game actually STARTS being a game on page for, rather than on page 10? Its bad for us to start actual content early? ... Why exactly?

This was posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 11:43 pm (PDT)
It is now: Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:1 pm (PDT)

Maruchan didn't even notice that I didn't answer his question. This is only one of two I purposefully ignored. Maruchan isn't scum hunting- he's defending himself, buddying, and fluffing w/ a side of distraction. He obviously doesn't care about his answers because he never even noticed that I didn't answer, and if he did he just let it die.

SPOILERS: DOING IT WRONG

You need to know that.


I'll post actual stuff later today.

[Hoppster]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Nobody Special

^^^ good vote is

good

.



>>> No content (admittedly a lack of content could be attributed to V/LA but not a

complete absence

of content)

Okay, here's the deal: RoboThor is incredibly town, even though their read on me is completely wrong.

NihilisticNinja is probscum. Shouldn't be avoiding the thread. I assume he found out how hard it is to

appear

town and gave up.

SupremeOverlord is rather town.

Maruchan, howver.......

A question for Maruchan: Let's go back to your iso#29. Why is thunderweilder so very town? Do you not agree that scum could say the very same thing?

Amrun, as much as I hate to say it, is most likely town, also.

>>> RoboThor as a town-read... wait, who is he voting again?

Votecount 1.7

Maruchan (4)

: lane0168, saulres, Auckmid, glowball
saulres (1): NihilisticNinja

RoboThor (1): Nobody Special

>>> Only one scum-read

given

- and it's a flimsy reason that basically allows him to ignore everything that's been said in-thread - also no vote

>>> COMPLETELY AVOIDS giving a read on Maruchan (arguably it's implied, but why not just say it then?) - and by following up with a question, he can then use the answer to that question to justify Maruchan-town or Maruchan-scum later on without contradicting himself earlier

glowball:

At what point did you decide (in your head) that Maruchan was more worthy of a vote than Saulres?

Maruchan:

Scum-reads please (ordered if possible).

Yay! Welcome replacements!

Also, welcome Hoppster and MrTrow. I look forward to your input on all that's happened thus far. Thanks for subbing in, guys!

Oh, thank God, Hoppster and Trow. This makes me happy.

:')

[Hoppster]

Isn't my slot probscum? Shouldn't you be voting for me?

[Hoppster]

Okay, here's the deal: RoboThor is incredibly town, even though their read on me is completely wrong.

NihilisticNinja is probscum.

Shouldn't be avoiding the thread. I assume he found out how hard it is to

appear

town and gave up.

SupremeOverlord is rather town.

Maruchan, howver.......

A question for Maruchan: Let's go back to your iso#29. Why is thunderweilder so very town? Do you not agree that scum could say the very same thing?

Amrun, as much as I hate to say it, is most likely town, also.

Hoppster replaces NihilisticNinja

, and MrTrow replaces kondi2424. Please welcome them!

[Hoppster]

glowball - you believe scum-reads are important and town-reads are not, but you don't think it's important to justify scum-reads (as is implied by your refusal to make a case on saulres)?


Amrun, you haven't mentioned lane for 100+ posts (15 of

your

posts) yet you're voting for him - why?

(Ie. do none of the current wagons float your boat, why aren't you pushing this lane-wagon more, what is the lane case anyway, etcetera)

[Hoppster]

@hoppster: What's your opinion on glowball? WHat would it take for you to vote her over NS?

She certainly can be illogical but that's not necessarily indicative of scum. I'm naturally wary of pronouncing her as scum following a recent experience.

In a [REDACTED ONGOING - both of us flipped (incidentally both of us were in a hydra)] I literally had a BULLETPROOF CASE on her. I can't go into detail, but seriously, it made ZERO SENSE for town to be pulling some of the stuff she did (seriously some of it was actually mind-boggling), she fell for a scum-trap I set, etcetera.

Oh, and she was town.

LIKE A PUNCH TO THE FACE IT WAS.

A PUNCH TO THE FACE AND A KICK IN THE BALLS FOR GOOD MEASURE.


Her play this game is not dissimilar to the other game. I'm reserving judgement for the moment.

That means I'm not paticularly taken to the idea of a glowball lynch over NS.


Maruchan is actively avoiding this thread. He has posted in SEVERAL other games SEVERAL times.

I make it 91 posts.

[Hoppster]

Oh, free town-points? Kewl. You are forgiven.

Oh, but wait, you're not voting. Remedy that and give me more town points for pointing this out kthxbai.

[Hoppster]

Oh, free town-points? Kewl. You are forgiven.

Oh, but wait, you're not voting. Remedy that and give me more town points for pointing this out kthxbai.

Honestly thought my vote was still on Saulres. muh bad.

No more townie points for that as scum or town would've pointed that out.

I don't understand how that is different from pointing out your lurking.

[Hoppster]

Also, lynching NS for lurking/active lurking is like lynching a kitten for being cute.

What about for providing no content and not making any effort to scum-hunt?


glowball, I'm not following AT ALL how your stance on thunder has changed from:

I haven't answered thunder's case because I see nothing to answer for, he's interpreted my behavior as scummy and I cannot disagree with his playstyle or frame of mind. He's wrong and his case is garbage IMO, but I realize why he's come to those conclusion and that has to do with playstyle- he's obviously not a successful scumhunter because I find it very hard to see him as scum at this point.

VOTE: Thunder I point out your faults, I ignore you- and you keep pushing. If you are town you are blacklisted and if you are scum then BRAVO you got some people to buy into the completely fabricated case.

[Hoppster]

>___>

Could the same argument not be made

more effectively

for you?

"WELL I WANT HIM LYNCHED (LOL IDRC HIS ALIGNMENT) BECAUSE HE'S A TERRIBLE SCUMHUNTER" - this is terrible scum-hunting, is it not?

[Hoppster]

No, it isn't. I am certain in the reads that I have. Thunder however is wrong, which none of you will know until after I flip but I know that he is obviously terrible at scumhunting.

>________________>

"I AM CERTAIN IN THE READS I HAVE."
"I DO NOT CARE ABOUT THUNDER'S ALIGNMENT, I WANT TO LYNCH HIM BECAUSE HE IS A TERRIBLE SCUMHUNTER."

Both of these cannot be true.

On top of this, if you ARE certain in your reads - WHY THE HELL DO YOU NOT WANT TO LYNCH A SCUM-READ?

[Hoppster]

Sorry, back from unexpected and sudden V/LA.

Where is Hoppster anyway? He's active in other threads

Not true...


Catching up now.

[Hoppster]

I'm finding it unreasonably difficult to get into this game. I blame everybody but myself. -.-

/whine

glowball (5): thunderwielder, Supreme Overlord, Auckmid, saulres, mothrax

mothrax (4): RoboThor, Hoppster

[ohai!]

, Maruchan, MrTrow.

Okay.

Of these two wagons, I am

much

more willing to lend my support to the mothrax wagon.


In an attempt to do as little work as possible in this catchup post, I decided to go through mothrax's ISO, and it's convinced me further that the slot is confscum.

Broken down the gist of my argument into two sections (A and B).

1. In his very first post, he defends his predecessor with
   lol-playstyle
   :

   Also, lynching NS for lurking/active lurking is like lynching a kitten for being cute.

   
   
   However, he then later refuses to accept the playstyle defence of glowball:

   RE my vote. Glowball is scummy. I have never played with glowball plus I think meta is shite, so I see no reason to think [that she is not scum]

   
   
   He also suggests that self-meta is a scum-tell, despite being guilty of doing so with his own slot:

   Maru is cementing himself further into my scumlist at this point... He seems to constantly self-meta, which I see as a scum tell (i.e post 214 "check my meta" and I feel like he has done that before though I didn't write the post number down.) He also seems to resort to a lot of flippant semi-personal attacks as a defence, which is scummy.

===================================================================
2. Mothrax puts an argument for Maruchan-scum:

   I always play with the mindset that Town don't care if they live or die, as long as they are catching scum. Towns goal is to catch scum... that automatically puts them on the offense, via cases, etc... scum on the other hand need to live. they cannot win without outliving the town, and are automatically at a great numerical disadvantage, thus they have to fight harder to stay alive.
   
   and for someone who preached about not caring about votes early on, Maruchan seemed to take great offense to getting pressured.

   
   
   However, using the inverse of this argument, it's
   extremely
   easy to make an argument for glowball-town which it looks like mothrax has selectively overlooked in pushing a counter-wagon.
   
   glowball has numerous times refused to give town-reads or a case despite knowing it would aggrieve other players and obviously thus increase the odds of her being lynched.
   
   glowball even flat-out asks me to lynch her:

   Oh I see what you mean about those two quotes rather contradictory in your eyes okay you should lynch me for that.

tl;dr

1. mothrax defends own slot with self-meta but attacks others for doing so.
   
2. mothrax makes an argument for Maruchan-scum, overlooking the logical continuation of glowball-town

Still struggling to read glowball.

.__.

Leaning-town slightly, as this strikes me as an emotional-town-OMGUS.

[Hoppster]

I've now examined mothrax's postings and I'm just not seeing the argument against him. If someone could sum it up for me (preferably someone who had their vote on Nobody Special and hasn't changed it) I'll look again with the summary in mind. But I'm not seeing him anywhere near as scummy as glowball.

This sounds like a job for Hoppster and his pre-emptive amazingness.

ohai

To quote the tl;dr:

tl;dr

1. mothrax defends own slot with self-meta but attacks others for doing so.
   
2. mothrax makes an argument for Maruchan-scum, overlooking the logical continuation of glowball-town

Can somebody run me over the non-playstyle-related reasons for glowball-scum or quote it for me (like I've done with mothrax above)?

[Hoppster]

-- She's been ignoring a lot of posts and points and questions. Now that could go either way, but I was looking through her wiki (where she talks about how blacklisting is stupid, by the by->thought that was pretty amusing) and in her first scum game, at the wrap up somebody says this post. Seems like similar behaviour here.
--- The whole, refusing to give reads thing.
--- The whole jumping on me for what I consider nothing (this is a grey area actually, not necessarily scum for that, BUT) blowing things out of proportion is scummy for me, plus the constant referrals to "everyone insulting her" when I don't think ANYONE has (if anything, I'll admit I've come the closest--but when others have told her she's being unreasonable, she immediately jumps to the "well, you must be insulting me too--harumph!" card, and so far it's making people back off.
--- Plus, yes I would like a policy lynch on her. I find her to be very unreasonable, and I'm having a hard time tearing my eyes away from her. I consider myself to be a pretty decent scum hunter, and I just can't shake this feeling. And if, on the rare chance that I'm misreading all of her behaviour and startling behaviour, it'll at least give

all of us

ME a break from constant arguments and having to tip-toe around with accusations or questions for fear of them being misinterpreted or her being "insulted."

That's my piece. I really wanted to include the previous game, because I think it's very valid to what's going on here.

Here you go Hoppster. If I missed any points here that others consider to be valid, please add them on (but that's what I came up with when trying to create a bullet point list earlier in the game).
But I'm really happy that Glowball has calmed down now. It's been a lovely relief, and my solid gut read has turned into a half gut read--I will say that.

The first one is not a scum-tell but a bad-at-this-game-tell (might even be a town-tell). I've been in games where the people I've been pushing have continually been ignoring my questions, and whaddya know, they were town (if it's relevant it's about a 50/50 split as to what my alignment was).

Leaving aside your gut feelings (which I am not privy to) the rest seems like a mixture of playstyle/personality. I'm sympathetic to your wish to just be rid of glowball (because I think it'd help me get into this game more) but really this isn't a case I would support over the NS/mothrax case.

lane

- Maruchan is not getting lynched. Move your vote.

glowball

- Which do you prefer, No Lynch, glowball-lynch or mothrax-lynch? Please move your vote accordingly.

Hoppster - I was liking NihilisticNinja's play. His first couple posts were pretty good; since he's dropped out more recently I don't have a solid town-read on him. I'm not entirely sold on his mothrax case.

I like my mothrax case. Why don't you? (Ie. please show your working.)

[Hoppster]

You know what, I HATE it when people try to control votes. YOU CANNOT TELL SOMEONE THAT ANOTHER PLAYER IS NOT GETTING LYNCHED.

Yes I can. I just did, and I'm right in doing so as well.

Sitting your vote on somebody who is not going to get lynched is (unless you're looking for a No Lynch over the top wagons, HENCE WHY I ASKED) completely useless and the kind of thing that should be taught in Newbie games. This is a team game. Not everybody can have their top choice lynched. If everybody simply sat their votes on their top suspect and didn't budge, scum would win so many more games.

IN FACT, you've SHOWN AWARENESS of this earlier in the day:

Because obviously none of you want to lynch my scumreads and I cannot lynch alone.

So WHY have you selectively forgotten this at deadline when it's even more important to be willing to compromise?

[Hoppster]

Interesting. And in a good way.

This means, to me at least, one of four things:

1) We have a doc who protected the right person
2) We have a roleblocker who blocked the right person
3) The scum were AWOL and didn't get their actions in
4) The scum intentionally didn't kill anyone.

I can't see any benefit to the scum to do #4, so I dismiss that.

#3 will be worth pursuing to see who was out as early targets for investigation.

#2 -- if it was this, good job roleblocker, block the same person tonight!

#1 -- nice choice doc, I hope you have the same luck (or skill) tonight!

Now that my triple-threat theory is blown out of the water, I'll have to look back through yesterday's posts again and see what else might stand out to me. That's going to take some time.

If there is a Roleblocker, they shouldn't

definitely

roleblock the same person tonight. They should

consider

it. If the Roleblocker did indeed stop the kill carried out by scum, then announcing to the whole playerlist that the Roleblocker will RB the same person tonight effectively makes that Roleblocker useless. Scum can just get a different player to carry out the kill.

But I know when I am scum I either try to do the WIFOMiest Night Option, or do the most stupidly obvious it wouldn't seem possible option.

In ALLLL of my scum-games, I have

never

considered making a No Kill, or any kill, for 'teehee Wine-in-front-of-me' (loldatrhymes), and I don't believe my team-mates have contemplated such things either.

You are probably the only person here who would consider such a thing. You claim to be town. Therefore, you shouldn't worry about it.

I like my mothrax case. Why don't you? (Ie. please show your working.)

On mothrax's meta, I see three seperate points:
1. NS 'lynching a kitten' etc - This is the bit I like least about his meta-stuff; however I can see how, from mothrax's perspective, it's reasonable to show that lurking (which might otherwise be quite subjective as a tell) is not necessarily indicative of NS-scum.
2. Glowball is scummy regardless of meta was a point I agreed with; the difference that I see is that glowball's play was objectively scummy, while NS's lurking was more subjective - therefore, glowball definitely deserves a lynch while NS may or may not, which he then used other games to show.
3. Maruchan self-metaing is different to mothrax NS-metaing; self-metaing is useless because if you're aware of your meta you can manipulate it. However, mothrax wasn't self-metaing; he was metaing NS, who, while it was the same slot, he had no control over NS's actions, so the meta is a bit more valid.

On Maruchan worrying about pressure and glowball asking to be lynched:
Firstly, 'overlooking the logical continuation of glowball-town' is not scummy. An unfortunate oversight, perhaps, but not scummy.
Also, Maruchan's response to the pressure of votes was along the lines of 'keep them coming'; in my opinion, Maruchan and glowball were somewhat similar in terms of reaction to votes, trying to be blithe about it in the hopes that the votes won't be taken seriously and not followed.

So that's why I'm not entirely sold on your mothrax case.

1+2. Perhaps it's reasonable to defend his predecessor with meta. However, what is NOT reasonable, is then to refuse to accept a defence of another player (who incidentally was the major opposing wagon) where this defence is also meta. Glowball's playstyle IS abrasive, just as mothrax argued that Nobody Special's playstyle IS active lurking. There is no difference. Had mothrax replaced into glowball's slot he very well could have made a similar defence of his predecessor as he did with Nobody Special.

3. Mothrax is self-meta'ing his own slot, so is just as potentially biased as somebody self-meta'ing themselves.

4. Overlooking something by itself is not a scum-tell, but this was overlooking something of glowball's, who mothrax was voting and pushing for a lynch, which points to mothrax not paying attention to glowball's posts, which suggests a mentality of 'OKAY LET ME JUST PUSH THIS COUNTER-WAGON WITHOUT PAYING ATTENTION TO THE ACTUAL PERSON I'M WAGONING'.


VOTE: mothrax

Undeiniable truths.

Glowball flip gives more information than a mothrax flip
My change of heart comes after I came out of the shit storm more scummy to her

My truths

Her information is worth more than her weak scum hunting
If she flips scum I like maruchan even more because I feel her case on me was to create discredit to me because I won't get off the maru vote. I'm not sure she will, but her information is still worth more than her play. I guess if she flips scum it could just make me look scummier for what people called my denfense and now my bussing. I trust this won't be the case.

Call it omgus if you wish glow. I don't have correct symbols on my vote but unvote vote glowball

lane, in this post, did you think glowball was town or scum?

[Hoppster]

THANKS MOD/SAULRES.

So, yeah, I'm totally partying/doing whatever cool people do on their birthday.


Back to the game: the posts on the last page are ridiculously intimidating in length*.

So I've Page Dn'd them and

pretended to

read them, and mothrax remains scum (and my case remains strong). I'm puzzled as to why I'm the only one on the wagon.

Mr Trow's list of reads look is a good approximation to what I've got in my head somewhere. The only difference being that my reads are more scaled back in general (Amrun leaning-town rather than town, Maruchan null-kinda-scum rather than scum) leaving me with a rather depressing number of people stuck in the 'no clear read' zone.

I actually did read Supreme Overlord's case on lane and I'm glad I did. It's actually got some points that I hadn't thought about at all which I'm now finding that I agree with.

... having said that, mothrax is still my number one preference for the lynch today, because his play yesterday just SCREAMS opportunistic scum pushing his counter-wagon. I would like people to look at my case again (in my ISO, too lazy to dig it up right now. Maybe after cake.)




*a serious note here: for the love of all that is holy, if you make a wall post, please post a tl;dr (like this). I read that tl;dr and decided that the post in question was probably worth my time reading. If there's no tl;dr I'm far more likely to just skip it over.


I wouldn't normally consider this a wall, but just to avoid looking like a selfish douche:

tl;dr - vote mothrax, ta.

[Hoppster]

dear god it is so frakking hard for me to get into this game. too many walls not enough logic. it just puts me off reading this thing... sorry guys...

I SYMPATHISE.

What I don't sympathise with, though, is your Scum Role PM. Yeah, I bet that must suck.

Spoiler: Maruchan vs Mr Trow - the past 24 hours

Mr trow is grasping at straws harder and harder with each consecutive post he makes. My vote I now officially on him as a vote

I'll explain when I am not on a cellphone.

<time passes>

Skimmed the case by lane abotu to finish reading it.

quick thought before I finish though:


I THOUGHT I TAUGHT YOU ALL THAT SCUMTEAM PREDICTIONS ARE IDIOTIC?
Lane, did you not learn this the first time around? Do we REALLY need to do it again? Lynch me, and maybe THIS TIME you'll learn that SCUM. TEAM. PREDICTIONS. ARE. STUPID.

<time passes>

Skimmed the case by lane abotu to finish reading it.

quick thought before I finish though:


I THOUGHT I TAUGHT YOU ALL THAT SCUMTEAM PREDICTIONS ARE IDIOTIC?
Lane, did you not learn this the first time around? Do we REALLY need to do it again? Lynch me, and maybe THIS TIME you'll learn that SCUM. TEAM. PREDICTIONS. ARE. STUPID.

I'm with Saulres... he wasn't even talking about you.
Defensive much?

I thought the case was about me+NS+mothrax.

due to the whole faulty quotes shit.

Maruchan, you haven't forgotten about this Mr Trow business, have you? There's no sign of the explanation that you promised.


In addition to that:

Vote: Trow

I will unvote when you learn how to read.

Mr trow is grasping at straws harder and harder with each consecutive post he makes. My vote I now officially on him as a vote

The first quote suggests that you are using your vote as a deterrence to stop people from attacking you (with what you see as poor cases) - ie. a temporary vote as a means to an end where you're not looking for a lynch, but for Mr Trow to drop his case. The second quote suggests that your original vote on Mr Trow was not intended to be an 'official' vote - which then means that the vote you made on Mr Trow could not have been because you thought he was scum.


Who are your scum-reads and why did you vote Mr Trow to get him to 'learn how to read' instead of voting for a scum-read?

I still prefer lane, but eh.

The only thing still giving me misgivings is that I have reason to believe NS prefers to play as scum as of late

[citation needed]

... and he replaced out.

For The Fact Yes

[Hoppster]

... Is that spear going through saulres' groin?

Immediately I'm getting alarm bells in that Mist replaced in, read her Role PM, and proceeded to replace out before even posting.

FoS: Tragedy

(OMG TRAGEDY! <3)

VOTE: Maruchan
Three townies suspected him (compared to the two for Mothrax). Those same three townies are dead. Not only that, but his first post of the day is meaningless. Great contribution. Plus, he's the only one who mentioned "I PR hunt if I'm doc" and now the doc is dead.

Yes, those three townies are dead, but two of them were lynches (and thus could not have been solely directed by Maruchan). So it's null.

His first post today was awful though so I'll accept that point.

lmao thunderwileder. Because they suspected me, I am scum?

Have we forgotten 2 things? A: The definition of WIFOM, B: The fact that as scum I LOVE LOVE LOVE some WIFOM.

I agree that their suspicion of you doesn't make you scum.

However, you're ignoring the other point thunder made - your first post today was a whole load of nothingness. Why? Where is your vote?

Whether you love scum as WIFOM

shouldn't matter at all

- because you claim not to be scum! Why bother even telling us that you love WIFOM as scum -

unless you're scum?

Tragedy makes a nice intro. vurry nice.

Not nice enough to tempt you into voting Amrun with Tragedy?

Thanks, Captain obvious!

Thanks for being more Obvious.

You mean obvious-town, right? :'(

But seriously:

... having said that, mothrax is still my number one preference for the lynch today, because his play yesterday just SCREAMS opportunistic scum pushing his counter-wagon.

Thanks for being more Obvious.

If you think this is obvious,

VOTE MOTHRAX WITH ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

VOTE: mothrax

tl;dr

- Barring secret-anti-cult, mothrax still has a scum PM and should die.

[Hoppster]

Whether you love scum as WIFOM

shouldn't matter at all

- because you claim not to be scum! Why bother even telling us that you love WIFOM as scum -

unless you're scum?

Saying what I do as scum is a perfectly legit thing to say as town to show why I am not scum?

Yep, my bad, I misinterpreted. >__>

However, a valid (albeit completely different) point I can make here - you keep going on about how you love WIFOM as scum. A great example of a WIFOM thing for scum to do is to do what you're doing RIGHT NOW. You're pointing out how you normally WIFOM kills - yet another angle of WIFOM would be if you then decided to not WIFOM the Night-Kills as such, instead going for this WIFOM-route of WIFOM-ing us about how you normally WIFOM night-kills and because you haven't been doing so you can't be scum...

>_>


You're still missing a vote.

[Hoppster]

@Hoppster, can't really complain too much. You have legitimate reasons to be pushing your Mothrax lynch. Who is your second top suspect?

Eh.

Most people other than mothrax are by and large null. I REALLY don't want to have to compromise today from mothrax to another suspect. If I had to name one at the moment it would probably be Tragedy (for reasons completely beyond her control, the shame), because Mist replacing out immediately after replacing in is dodgy as shit. I don't want to lynch Tragedy today though, I want to lynch mothrax.

Maruchan has some weird crap going on but he plays like that as town (I know because I was using it in another game to attack him when I was scum - it's finished).

mothrax (1): Hoppster

:'(


I'm So Ronery

Spoiler:

So ronery
So ronery and sadry arone

There's no one
Just me onry
Sitting on my rittle throne
I work rearry hard and make up great prans
But nobody ristens, no one understands
Seems like no one takes me serirousr

yyyyyyyyyyyy

And so I'm ronery
A rittle ronery
Poor rittle me

There's nobody
I can rerate to
Feel rike a bird in a cage
It's kinda sirry
But not rearry
Because it's firring my body with rage

I'm the smartest most crever most physicarry fit
But nobody else seems to rearize it
When I change the world maybe they'll notice

meeeeeeeeee

But until then I'rr just be ronery
Reah... a rittle ronery
Poor rittle meee.

I'm so roner

eeeee

TRAGEDY, Y U NO HELP ME LYNCH MOTHRAX?

[Hoppster]

Your posting looks decent but seriously, that Mist insta-replacein-replaceout is incredibly dodgy. Not even a prod-dodge, quite literally "Oh, okay, so this is my Role PM? /replace" (or at least I presume she read her Role PM before replacing out...)

I'LL FORGIVE YOU FOR TODAY AT LEAST IF YOU VOTE MOTHRAX WITH ME THOUGH <3~

[Hoppster]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Mothrax

I AM SLIGHTLY LESS DEPRESSED

WEEEEEEEEEEE


I completely forgot Mr Trow existed, although I do remember having a leaning-town read on him... my reads seem to have pretty much disintegrated into 'mothrax' and 'not-mothrax'.

It's incredibly disheartening to check the thread and see OH WOW I'M STILL THE ONLY PERSON VOTING MOTHRAX. WHAT FUN.

But now I have company on the wagon, so yeah, go meeeeeeeee. >_>



Haiii, maruchan, Tragedy thinks mothrax is scummy. You should totally vote mothrax.

[Hoppster]

mothrax (2): Hoppster, thunderwielder

[...]

Three scums. Yes, I think mothrax is scum, but let's assume that mothrax was lazy ass town for a moment.
And 2 towns are already on the wagon. Then scum would obviously jump on the wagon right away without a claim, especially since there's 3 scum still ALIVE right now.

Don't want him quick-lynched, I'm sorry.

buuuuuuuuuuut he's scuuuuuuuuuuuuuuum

anybody hammering without a claim is dying tomorrow so idrc about that

I don't care if scum jump on the wagon, mothrax needs to dieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee



... we have cookies?


JUST TELL ME WHAT I HAVE TO DO TO GET MY MOTHRAX LYNCH

I'LL DO BASICALLY ANYTHING

YES, EVEN THAT THING YOU WANTED TO DO BUT I SAID NO BECAUSE I THOUGHT IT WAS TOO SOON

[Hoppster]

i'm not getting nearly half as trippy as I thought I would be with two mothrax votes in one page.

weirrddddddddddd (and slightly depressing)

perhaps it'll kick in once we get to L-1.

[Hoppster]

sup doodz

V/LA until Friday

don't kill mothrax before I get back

I JEST


@ Tragedy: Looks like it's Maruchan or mothrax today, make a stance plz.

[Hoppster]

As far as I'm aware the case on Mothrax is still *my* case on Nobody Special (lurkfail) and though I don't hate it, I'm hardly annoited by the gawds to see it through till the end today. What of it?

wat ze fuck

why has nobody corrected him

My case on mothrax

Response to response to my case on mothrax (scroll down a bit)

Tragedy, I want your top three reads, with reasoning why, plus an analysis of Supreme Overlord's slot and then a vote (if it's not the hammer for Mothrax) like, two days ago. Could you do that for us please?

The lack of commitment happening here is appalling. Are we just going to not post our way into a scum win?

I'm getting more likely to vote for a Tragedy lynch right now, actually. Since I made the declaration that I would have to wait and see when she's done her cases and given her reads to decide she's scum, she's henceforth not given her reads or her cases. And her activity has declined.

You want us to take a good look at Amrun? Make a good case on Amrun.

Go and look at Tragedy's ISO, then look at mothrax's ISO (or mothrax's ISO + Nobody Special's ISO

combined

), then tell me you think Tragedy is a better lynch.

I FUCKING DARE YOU.

[Hoppster]

DeltaWave's slot remains scum.

His scum-read on me is (as both thunder and Cephir have correctly identified) transparently OMGUS - "pushing for townie lynch" is firstly untrue because we all know he's scum; secondly, even humouring him and pretending he's town, pushing a town-lynch does not make the person pushing scum; thirdly there's no attempt to actually respond to my case (which fyi was

not

"LURKING SCUM"), rather he cops out of responding to it because thunder would misrep his defence... ?


Cephrir's catchup post is a good post. (Admittedly it helps that he seems sympathetic to my plight of "MOTHRAX IS SCUM GAIZ".)

Incidentally, welcome back to MS.net!

Trag next post confirms he’s just iso-ing each player in order. Really? You voted Amrun without having read the other players?

This is a ridiculously good point which I somehow missed.

I'd like to think I would have noticed had I not been so distracted by WAI IS MOTHRAX ALIVE though >_>

(If somebody else pointed out, I apologise, but it's probably because you made it in a wall-post with no tl;dr/colourful reads.)

I am aware of Thor’s reputation, which I point out because it is relevant to the way I treat him Day Two

You'll need to explain this to me though, I didn't see any reference back to this in your analysis of Day 2.


Also slightly bemused by your Quilford read, as although I don't see much scum-intent from his posts, he's not exactly contributed a great deal.

[Hoppster]

Mr. Trow's "scumslip" is really not a scumslip at all - rather, HE is pointing out DELTAWAVE'S scumslip.

Anyway, I see Hoppster as pushing for the lynch of a townie with very little hard reasoning

You say this yet you still refuse to answer my case because...

you can't tell me what that case is nor you can you provide me the post # of specific points.

Because thunder (whose case it is most certainly not) didn't provide a precise reference, my case doesn't exist? What witchcraft is this? So you didn't think to ask

me

for

my

case?


The tl;dr of my case against mothrax -

his play was textbook opportunistic scum pushing a counter-wagon blindly.

There you go, even bolded it for you.

Mod: Your countdown tags aren't working?

[Hoppster]

Hoppster, now that your Mothrax case has fallen flat, where to next?

um

this is going to sound a bit stupid

but I don't really know

tempted to random.org this tbqh


I suppose really MrTrow seems a natural place to look based on the RB, but in a world where Nobody Special / mothrax / DeltaWave isn't scum, NOTHING MAKES SENSE ANY MOARRRRR

The Amrun-"WHOOPS ACCIDENTAL HAMMER" is null, though (pretty sure of that). Scum wouldn't have needed a fake-accidental-hammer to get DeltaWave lynched.

[Hoppster]

oh god

robothor

who did this to you

i'm on my own now

This post reeks stupidity. I would say scum would post like this since it's pretty much irrelevant to whatever the hell's going on.
But I still didn't see how Robothor was obvious town, especially when he sort of...Vanished. As he admitted yesterday, too.
...
Sigh.

Stupid-tell = scum-tell?

[Hoppster]

Hoppster, any new leads? How do you feel about everyone right now?

no new leads

feeling pretty terrible about everybody in general

should probably look through people's ISOs

I'll get back to you on that (pinky swear)

[Hoppster]

I don't think I roleblocked Trow whilst he performed the kill.

more likely: Scum and doc target RoboThor N1, Doc killed N2, RoboThor killed without worry N3

this makes some sense.

I would like everyone's opinions on Mr. Trow, please and thank you.
And, yes, there is a method to my madness.

Mr Trow is kinda null overall for me.


I'm finding it easy to procrastinate with ISO's/cases etc. Somebody needs to make a

proper

case (or possibly collect several points into one post) so I feel bad about not making a case so I make a case so we can lynch scum so we can win.

[Hoppster]

sooo now I have the motivation to post but weirdly no longer have the time.

I appreciate it's suspiciously convenient... but yeah. Fuck you, random stranger on the internet, if you're really that cynical.

@ Mod: When is deadline?

I'll think about replacing out if game activity continues to fail and I continue to be busy because I'm not exactly helping/contributing at this point and it seems to be hurting the game somewhat - we don't seem to be getting anywhere. It'd be nice if more people could be super-useful like Cephrir (yes I'm being a filthy hypocrite - sue me) and go through ISOs so I don't have to. *hint hint*

[Hoppster]

Was he?

Yes, he freaking was, from day 1, and that never changed.


Cephrir is town town town.

Tragedy... I'm wavering on. I can totally see scum motivation there - really, really can - scum worried about consistency, etc, but at the same time, something in my gut is twinging in the opposite direction.

I see nothing of Mr Trow to convince me he's not scum. Still will see blood there.

Hoppster is being useless and that's weird for him.

Quilford, why do you think you didn't block Trow successfully? Not really following.

you forgot to mention Thunderwielder?

Useless? :'(

So from an ISO skim, you were confident enough to base other reads off of thunder being town?

Other reads weren't based off of thunder being town. My judgements, you see.

Your judgments?

My reads.

You can't make this stuff up.

If Tragedy is our scum, and we lynch her, we can essentially clear Amrun and make things much easier for us.

I COULD NOT DISAGREE WITH THIS MORE VEHEMENTLY.

Amrun is looking pretty town in recent posts, but that play by Tragedy upon entering just SMACKS of scum-overeager-busbusbus "ohhey my scumbuddy is first up in ISOs what a great chance to distanceeeeee".

[Hoppster]

If you thought it was obvious you knew there was a claimed roleblocker, why would you say thing like this?

How are you still keeping this up?
How do you know i`m not the roleblocker unless you`ve noticed the point (i attacked delta for 'assuming/knowing there was no roleblocker', if not this what gave you the 'he isn`t the roleblocker')

So either you have deduced i`m not the roleblocker by other means (if so please show me, using things prior to 1027 of course)
or you have read my motivation for the delta-slip argument and thus know the base for 'my slip' is incorrect. (in which case, why are you using it?)

these things are again related to the DeltaWave shenanigans if I'm not mistaken

which everybody but me (and MrTrow) continues to be wrong about

Let's review what happened.
In your own words this is the Delta slip situation

The case of 'my slip' is as follows:
- i point out delta assumes the roleblock will fail, conclude this may mean he knows there is no roleblocker
- then Quilford comes in and quotes the 'roleblock will fail' portion and concludes i`m talking about: the roleblocker will block the wrong person (how would i know there is a roleblocker)
- your #1013 notes this point and shelfs it due to the larger delta-case
- hoppster shows up and clears up quilford`s misread.
- after delta is lynched, you take this slip back from the shelf (even though the point is resolved)
in other words: why do you consider 'my slip' a valid point AFTER hoppster has already shattered the point

Right?
But Hoppster "shattering the point." goes as follows

Mr. Trow's "scumslip" is really not a scumslip at all - rather, HE is pointing out DELTAWAVE'S scumslip.

That's it.
That's all he says.

Which was fine, but now that Delta has flipped TOWN, it is very clear that you were not pointing out a scum slipping up like we initially most thought.

NOW
We know we HAVE a roleblocker, with 100% certainty.
Therefore any slips about us "knowing we Don't have a roleblocker" become invalid
and any potential slips about us "knowing we DO have a roleblocker" become valid again--especially since we're in Lylo and we need to mine any potential slips for all they're worth.

uhhhhhhhh

no.

my point is still 100% valid and correct.

MrTrow's "slip" remains 0% of a slip.

I only made one sentence because I assumed that it was

FUCKING OBVIOUS

.


DeltaWave assumed there would be no roleblock-success.

MrTrow goes "AHA, WHY DO YOU ASSUME THAT - PERHAPS YOU KNOW THERE IS NO ROLEBLOCKER?"

Everybody goes "LOL SCUMSLIP TROW YOU JUST ADMITTED WE HAVE A ROLEBLOCKER, DIE SCUM"


MrTrow is

not

scumslipping in any shape or form there. He is commenting on the hypothetical scenario in which there is no roleblocker - a hypothetical scenario alluded to by DeltaWave. MrTrow called out DeltaWave on this. That is NOT confirming the prescence of a roleblocker. It's anything BUT confirming the prescence of a roleblocker. If ANYTHING, it's a scumslip about NOT being a roleblocker (and it's not that either, it's not a scumslip, fullstop).

It turns out that, fine, DeltaWave wasn't scumslipping.

MrTrow's post is STILL NOT A SCUMSLIP.

My hypothetical vote goes to Trow.

I would LOVE to hear more from Hoppster and especially Quilford.

ohai?

Lets see if i got this right.

- thunder knew i was not the roleblocker in #1027 (where he acknoledges the possibility of a counterclaim), while i hadn`t posted yet since the claim (had no chance to counterclaim yet)
- i am to be considered to have scumslipped by pointing to what i considered to be a possible slip, which other townies (right?) have also considered a possible slip just because it turned out to be wrong.

1) I knew that there was no reason for a scum to claim roleblocker, certainly not off the top. Unless they were to No Kill and then pre-emptively claim roleblocker in order to force a quick lynch before the real roleblocker could state the case--but that's the only situation where it seems like it could be beneficial. (Really, what's the scenario here? Does a Quilford scum really need to make a false claim, only to draw a counter claim from the real roleblocker and out himself? I don't think so.)
IE, yes, me calling for someone to counter claim was me hoping that there was a scum out there silly enough to do so, so we could catch one easily.
2) I am only now considering the comment as a slip, since the other slip turned out to be wrong and

more importantly

there's a 50% chance that you are scum (just based upon night actions alone), so I'm following up every lead I can and trying to see if there's scum motivation. I am not completely disregarding the fact that we were wrong about the other slip, but looking in to see if there's any value to the other side of the story. The defensiveness that is starting to present itself is making me think that there is value to the other side of the story.

1) This isn't half as ridiculous as you're making it seem. Trading a non-contributing scum for a confirmed-town Roleblocker is a decent trade for scum at 4:3 lylo, as town remain in lylo the next day with the two stronger scum-members alive and no confirmed town alive. I'd do that.


2) Two attacks. One being incorrect does not make the other correct.



Cephrir, unvote. There is nothing pro-town that I can see coming off that. Not before we 'hypo-lynch' where we can lynch in a calm co-ordinated manner without fear of quickhammers.

FoS: Cephrir

Don't know who I would vote yet, still a bit clueless about that. Cephrir's vote isn't vote-able on that basis alone.

[Hoppster]

hello

been busy

post tomorrow, sleep now

don't lynch trow 'til I get a chance to explain why his scumslip isn't a scumslip

tia

Hoppster

xxx

[Hoppster]

oh god so many walls

cba to go through and find the relevant bits to rebuke re: MrTrow's "slip"

so I'll just knock something off the top of my head

if you respond to this, please do it in a pretty colour or something that stands out, ta.



soooo

the slip

Someone is assuming RB-will fail: why, do you know we don`t have one?

from what I gather in my liberal skimming and overzealous use of my 'Page Dn' key, the gist of this scumslip is "heehee he admitted there is a roleblocker" - in reference to where he suggests DeltaWave assumes that roleblocker will fail.


my response: um, it's not a scumslip?

sometimes I amaze myself with my eloquence

I really just don't understand how you CAN see this as a scumslip when it's completely not. I mean, I can see what your basis is, but in context it's just super-obviously not a scumslip and I don't know how to explain it because it's just so obvious.

yes, arguably upon isolation, in the first part he seems to have inside knowledge suggesting that there is a roleblocker

but with context it's CLEARLY a hypothetical situation with the Roleblocker he's talking about.


P-Edit:

do you know we don`t have one?

he knows there IS one.

Are mutually exclusive
therefore there is no way

Someone is assuming RB-will fail: why, do you know we don`t have one?

This implies that he knows there IS one.

these are compatible.

or this, this works as well



atm I am really not too bothered about who gets lynched tbqh

town-read on Amrun, Quilford is obviously conftown now

the rest of you have slowly slid to similar-ish levels

Tragedy's slot remains suspicious thanks to Mist

thunder and Cephrir have both REALLY been pushing that MrTrow slip way too hard and have both seriously damaged their image in my eyes

MrTrow is spectacularly null. I'm not claiming a town-read on him by any means, but yeah, his slip is totally not a slip. Feels like he could be town being messily pushed for the winning mislynch, but idrk.


I apologise for being vague, but I'm terrible at lylo/mylo.

This is actually probably my best town lylo/mylo yet. for srs.

[Hoppster]

VOTE: MrTrow

[Hoppster]

Scum QT

I'm sure there'll be no objections. We weren't slagging off anybody (to my recollection) or anything like that, so it'll probably be fine.

Had a solid townread on Hoppster though. Boo.

I was trying to come off as lazy-town, and I did suspect that might appeal to your own tendency to be really lazy-town at times.

Night Actions

Night 4:
Mafia escape Germany with Man in Trenchcoat

A+++

Moderator Notes

Scum had this very, very well. If they post their scum QT, you’ll see they were very organized and willing to take risks. Only thing that I have to criticize is that Day 4 you guys started to bus each other when you didn’t really need to yet. I was almost expecting you to manage to turn the lynch on one of your own by accident when you had the game in your hands.

Yeah, I agree with the Day 4 assessment. Probably my fault partially as I did have no clue how to basically go from tunnelling NS/mothrax/DeltaWave to somebody else without seeming horrifically opportunistic so the other two had to put some kind of distance I suppose (although I do think they overdid it slightly).



What would everybody have done with a No Kill Night 3 and then Quilford claiming RoboThor RB Day 4? In the scum QT, you'll see I wanted to do a No Kill to push a RB-target-lynch in mylo and I'm curious as to whether it would have worked or not.


Loved the death pictures Xalxe, and your VCs always looked awesome and really tidy. I know that's a weird thing to comment on, but they did.

[Hoppster]

Meh.

No congratulatory hugz?

[Hoppster]

CAN'T WAIT!

<3