New York 146 Zach's Insane Mafia World (OVER)

[havingfitz]

I thought redFF was going to be guarding our VT Cop? WTF?

VOTE: redFF

Are you not a bodyguard or did you decide the cop didn't deserve your protection?

[havingfitz]

There were some discussions on the night actions. I don't remember all of them (each PR should remember theirs') but I do recall the bodyguard was recommended to protect zmuff. And seriously ...who else should have been protected aside from our claimed cop? And the site crash shouldn't matter as it happened right before we were initially supposed to start D4.

[havingfitz]

@Moi...It's one vote. I wouldn't hammer or advocate hammering redff until we hear from him. I dont recall the end of day 3 specifics on jason and whether he has chimed in yet or not is not relevant to the fact I think redff has been caught in either a fakeclaim or some hard to explain anti-town play. I look forward to hearing his detailed explanation.

[havingfitz]

Kamrun....what say you?

[havingfitz]

Why the hell did you jailkeep the bodyguard who could save the cop? WTF? How does that even make a bit of sense? If I recall...you were supposed to block me or DV or some other VT....NS maybe. FFS.

UNVOTE:

Kamrun...why do you not deserve a vote for blocking the only thing keeping the cop alive?

[havingfitz]

OK...since the game is dragging I'm going to give a data dump on where I'm at with this game. Thoughts...questions...assumptions...whatever. No particular order...just a bit of rambling.

So we've lost all out data. That sucks...and IMO is a big boost to our anti-town elements (I say elements because I am of the opinion there are more than one; mafia team and sk). Has anyone been able to provide any cached pages for the mod or other players to have access to? Has everyone looked? I looked and there was nothing on my computers. I do have a spreadsheet with all the voting history from the start of the game if that would help anyone.

I have a crap memory (at least IMO). For the most part I remember those who I had suspicions towards but I do not recall most of the details (if any) of why I suspect certain players.

Fact: Ghostlin is a confirmed neighborizer and is therefore (IMO) town. I have never played in a game where the person doing the neighborizing was scum, therefore...for me...Ghostlin is town. Unless Ghostlin and his selected neighbor are all scum working together on a master gambit which I doubt is the case.

Assumptions: No one still alive is confirmed town.

I assume there is an SK. Iirc I assumed there was an SK even before DarthYoshi claimed FBI investigator but I can't recall why I assumed it. I know I was leaning town on DY before he claimed so therefore I am inclined to believe his claim. IMO his claim supports the existence of an SK, though the continued lack of a 2nd NK 3 nights in a row is causing me to rethink my SK assumption a bit. Verdict...I think DY is town but he could be scum. If he is scum, I think he is the sk.

One of Alice and Jason are probably lying. I do not think there is a tracker AND a watcher. That combined with the fact they have both at one time or another raised my suspicions. Of the two of them I am probably leaning towards Jason as being the fakeclaimer based on the fact he (iirc) claimed way early when he didn't need to. Though as I type this...if I recall...Alice claimed when she didn't have to at all. But Alice's circumstances were more believable so I go back to leaning towards hers being legit vs jasons. If they are both telling the truth I will be at a loss for words. I know we are still waiting to hear Jason's 2nd visitor from N1. How his D4 starts will probably determine whether I vote him or not.

Misc: Kamrun is someone I suspect. Especially given his block on the claimed bodyguard last night. His claim of jailkeeper would be a convenient claim for a roleblocker to make and the fact he was neighbored by Ghostlin means nothing.

reFF is someone I suspect. I seem to recall that his play yesterday was very questionable and odd. Given the fact he was JK'd last night (apparently) and that there was once again, only one NK, he could be the SK as well.

MOI....I started off suspecting him but his play has reverted to what I am use to seeing from him....and as I have only ever played with him when he was town...that leads me to think he is town. He claimed Doc as well, but that claim doesn't clear him IMO, his current play does.

Deasvail...I have suspected him the entire game and continue to.

SnakePlissken and Nobody Special are two players that have been quite and have gotten some suspicion their way. Snake's play seems to match the meta I have for him in my mind when he is town and I have leaned town on him most of the game. NS....perhaps a little less of a town read than Snake but I still come into D4 seeming to recall I had a town read on him.

Thor (aka Jon_h61) is someone I have been null towards this game. I'm probably leaning more town than scum with him and any move towards suspicion (at least if it was still Thor) would be based on PoE.

People I suspect to a degree enough that I would support a D4 wagon on them: Deasvail Kamrun (I think one or both of Kamrun and redFF could be scum...redFF gets a D4 pass IMO given he was JK'd). Probably Jason. I do not like the thought of lynching our confirmed watcher if he is telling the truth about being town. His flip however would seal how I view Alice. redFF

People I'm not inclined to vote ATT:

redFF

Alice DarthYoshi Snake and NS MOI Jon_h61

People who won't be getting my vote: Ghostlin Me

Does anyone recall what IAI's going away letter said to the presumed other anti-town entity? That could help explain last night's results....and could actually point suspicions back towards redFF. ????? I'm moving redFF from my no vote ATT category back into my I would support wagon category. I think at a minimum there is a one or the other situation with respect to Kamrun and redFF.

Jason...what have your results been each night?

[havingfitz]

@ MOI....IMO people base their opinion on personal experience. My personal experience is that scum aren't neighborizors. Could there be cases where they are? Sure. But I'm content to consider Ghostlin town for the time being.

As for Smake and NS...I don't do meta other than what my recollections of a player are. Kind of like how I'm inclined to consider you town ATM....based on my previous experiences playing with you as town.

@Ghostlin...on the one hand, Kamrun's logic is reasonable...but WTF would you keep the one player that was set to protect the cop? That doesn't make sense. If Kam hadn't kept red he [red] would either be dead or he would be a slam dunk for a lynching (unless of course you kept one of the killing factions...assuming there are two).

Speaking of that...what are people's thoughts on there being an SK? We've only had one kill each night but that could be explained/hypothesized for each case. We have an FBI agent which supports having an SK...if the FBI agent is telling the truth. If DY is in fact FBI....then knowing red was kept last night points a big incriminating finger at him [red].

Also Ghostlin...what are you talking about re: multiball? Which I have never played BTW. My point is what it is....a player claiming to be the town jailkeeper could just as easily be a scum roleblocker. So I do not see him as confirmed clear. If redFF is mafia then I would be more inclined to believe Kamrun.

How is my logic falling apart? Happy to be shown the error of my ways and move on to other suspects.

[havingfitz]

@MOI...kiss my arse. You find scum your way and I will find scum mine. Since you are such a big fan of not relying on personal experience feel free to meta me to your heart's content...you'll find I'm pretty consistent with not using meta. It's not lazy...it's I've got better things to do with my time. Kind of like your weekend thing.

Fabricating town reads

....that's hilarious. I'm saying based on my personal experience my reads are what they are. If Ghostlin turns out to be scum my opinion in future games will be adjusted accordingly.

I am on the road in a few minutes until tomorrow night so I'm from this point on on a

mini-v/LA

.

[havingfitz]

What do you mean by "trying to catch redFF"? And oh by the way...WHO did you see visit you N1 in addition to Alice?! And while you're at it ...can you remind me who you saw N2 as well?

[havingfitz]

Srill ~v/la....acessing from phone. Will read over and vote jason or DV tomorrow.

[havingfitz]

I'm cutting and pasting this on my phone from an email to myself and it is giving me fits. So it's going to be a two parter. Part 1:

I am in agreement with DY and Ghostlin on this…we have a 1v1 where someone is going to be proven a liar. I have suspected DV since D1 (and his play D3 solidified those suspicions); therefore, I am more inclined to vote DV despite the fact I have suspected Jason much of the game as well. I am going to defer to a DV vote because I feel the scenario’s for each vote outcome favors a DV lynch.

Worst case with a DV lynch:

DV is town and we have a 100% easy decision to lynch jason tomorrow and we have (IMO) a cleared town in Alice. That additionally (despite MOIs objections) adds her to Ghostlin to give us two confirmed towns.

Best case with a DV lynch:

DV is scum. Yeah! Downside… jason could still be scum bussing their partner and Alice would then not be as cleared. Additional potential bonus point…we haven’t erroneously killed the town watcher.

Worst case with a jason lynch:

jason is town and we’ve killed the town’s watcher. This is offset by DV essentially being confirmed anti-town and tomorrow’s lynch but (IMO) muddies the waters with respect to Alice.

Best case with a jason lynch:

jason is scum. Yeah! As mentioned above…IMO this also clears Alice. I do not think this necessarily clears DV but it at least increases the odds he is town.

[havingfitz]

Part 2:

Given the fact that I have and will continue to suspect DV regardless of what happens today, I consider his lynch less risky than lynching a confirmed watcher who alignment is the only thing in doubt and will be proven is DV is town.

Also…as I type this…I still am inclined to think we are dealing with more than one anti-town faction [for the sake of this post…I’ll assume it’s an sk] and even if jason was proved to be lying, pending the DV flip, his continued presence would serve as a threat to the sk and would 1) make him a choice target for said other sk as opposed to other PRs or town and 2) we would know he was scum and his continued existence would be at our discretion and conceivably only last as long as he was useful (ie as long as the sk lived).

tl:dr

jason and DV are both scummy as hell but I’d rather get it wrong with scummy town than with an honest watcher. And if jason is proved to be scum…his continued existence could make him sk nk fodder (good for town) or a tool for town to use to find (IMO) the sk.

VOTE: Deasvail

[havingfitz]

Pardon the typos...I think my points are clear despite them.

[havingfitz]

@jon...she is one of the players that makes me wish the site had not crashed. Some of my opinions towards other players were stronger and I don't feel as blinded by the crash but with her I feel like it would be good to have her posts available to ISO. That said...I think we can all take as fact that she is a PR of some sort. I can't recall all her claimed tracks so I cannot recall if there was a way she was considered confirmed. I just know that her and jason both agree that she visited him. So we know jason is a watcher. If jason turns out to be scum I will be in the "Alice is confirmed town-tracker camp." As long as she or jason are still alive (or at least alignment unknown) I will continue to have a shred of doubt (strengthened by the inability to ISO her). Until she is confirmed town or scum she will remain on my radar but she is not high up on that list. I think I detailed it more in a recent post but I don't feel like checking in the middle of typing this one.

[havingfitz]

Again HF's arguments sound logical. I need to "park" my vote somewhere, so I'll come back and read any new posts before I leave and then decide where it will go.

What specifically about Having’s arguments ‘sound logical’?

If I wasn't clear enough to you when I posted my thoughts you probably won't understand anyone else's explanation.

Two things I’d like to comment on here –

1. I very much dislike that the direction of the day are currently in the hands of Snake and NS, two mega-lurkers.
2. Ghostlin – look at your companions on the Deas wagon. I’m not saying Deas is Town but look at who is with you there. I’d be allergic to having fellow wagon-mates of Jason, redFF and having.

I agree on your pt 1. As for your pt 2...convenient of you to avoid calling Deas town but apparently feel those on his wagon in some way indicate it is a mislynch. If that is not correct please explain. The jason vote on Deas is obv given they are accusing each other of lying, but Ghostlin is ~confirmed town (IMO) and I am town. And redFF if scum is more likely IMO to be the sk...so he is looking for scum as well. I see no issues with those on Deas wagon.

@Jon, I'm not

confirmed

town per se, but I'm pretty damn close. I can't believe HF doesn't remember that I tracked Jason twice and saw him self-watch twice.

I couldn't remember who you tracked Alice. Not sure it changes my opinion towards you. I don't have the posts involved with your claim on tracking jason or who gave results first. Now I remember asking for you to give your result first but I do not recall how that all played out. If there is something with you N2 activities that you think goes further in clearing you please refresh my memory (or anyone else that might be able to). The more cleared players the better.

[havingfitz]

Alice...I do not recall IAI's push towards you or his case. Or Kamrun's for that matter. I lean towards believing your claim over jason's but the fact IAI and/or Kamrun suspected you on D1 means nothing. You know it could be bussing so to use it as a positivie in your favor is silly. Kamrun had a vote on you for all of 30 posts (73-103) while IAI had a D1 vote on you from 204-405. And the vast majority of IAI's vote on you had you at 2 votes. Hardly a precarious situation for a scum buddy. And neither of them had a vote on you D2 or D3. So what is your point again?

Deasvail's resolution to fakeclaim is scyummy. When do town think to fakeclaim? They don't. I think scum have it in the back of their mind though so it's more likely to come up from scum. Ridiculous.

I admit jason has played a crap game and is on as thin of ice as a player can be but Deasvail is not far behind IMO. And like I said in my post 83 and post 84, if I am going to get it wrong...I'm much more in favor of getting rid of scummy town while CONFIRMING we have scum in jason then I am in possibly mislynching a town watcher. And as I brought up...if we do lynch DV and he flips town. We know jason is scum...we (at least I) can feel more confident with Alice's claim...and we have the option of keeping jason on a leash to help us find the sk that DarthYoshi's claim and some of the NK flavors would point to existing in this game. Plus the sk (assuming he actually is out there) would be forced to consider killing jason instead of any of the other claimed PRs or VTs.

I fail to see how opting for a "I thought about fakeclaiming/please don't track me" Deasvail lynch is a bad thing.

More DV votes please.

[havingfitz]

@DY...I seem to recall there being different flavors to the first 2 NKs and Alice touched on it again in a few post crash posts. I would assume you of all people would be of the mind that there is an SK in this game.

[havingfitz]

I'm more interested in what Alice's track revealed.

I'm also about ready to bail on the whole sk theory. I've never played in a game with a red herring for a PR before.

@Ghostlin....were you still neighbors with Kamrun and if so...do you know who he kept last night?

[havingfitz]

After jason flipped scum...I would find it hard to rationalize Alice not being conftown. But I'm willing to listen.

Also, redFF's protect last night might be better revealed prior to Alice's track.

[havingfitz]

They were pretty much the strongest power role left in the game, and I had a town read on them, and iirc they were regarded as town by many players in the game, and a likely nk if town.

Plus, they had already blocked me once and it looked like they intended to block me again, and I half hoped they would be killed while blocking the one person that could save them, which is what it looks like happened.

Oh the irony.

Why would you hope for Kamrun to get killed while blocking you? Why would you think Kamrun deserved your protection over Alice. Do you think scum (mafia and/or sk???) would feel getting kept...or having their targets kept, was more dangerous then being tracked during the commission of a NK? Also...what led you to think they were going to block you again?

Things I'm less confident of today (D5); that there is an anti-town faction other than mafia, that redFF's claim is legitimate, and that DY's claim is legitimate.
Things I am more confident of today; Alice is telling the truth.

So I've got two confirmed town IMO (Ghostlin and Alice) and no one else. The next closest sure thing for me would be MOI (I think he is town...partly for his play and partly for his claim). Everyone else still in the air for me. I'm liking red and DV today but I'll see how they play for a bit today before I decide.

PS...where's Snake?

[havingfitz]

So you do think it's plausible that DY killed/roleblocked me?

How would this be possible or even make sense?
Are you suggesting DY tried to kill you?
Are you suggesting DY tried to roleblock you?

I don't see what you are saying. If you are saying DY tried to kill you then the only reason you would still be alive is if either he or you were jailkept by Kamrun. Unless you think there is an ADDITIONAL protection PR that has not claimed. Which I do not see being the case if they were town...and if there was a scum one left...I don't see them trying to protect you or impacting DY's claimed night action capability over saaaaaaay Kamrun's or Alice's.

And if you are suggesting Kamrun did something to impact DY's night action or your survival...then you are in direct contradiction with redFF's situtation.

So please elaborate.

[havingfitz]

I am reading carefully Alice...I still do not understand where DV's question is coming from. The "DY killed/roleblocked me?" part specifically. I understand your points and agree in the possibilities based on not knowing what Kamrun did.

@redFF....you say you are fairly sure Kamrun implied they were going to block you. Can you show where?

Scumreads would be DV and redFF...and DY a stand-by at 3rd if neither of them flip SK. If we wind up hitting an SK DY goes to a townread for me.

[havingfitz]

OK…so re-reading a bit since as Alice has been so kind to point out I have missed a few connections.

Darth – I recall you mentioning the possibility of there being 4 scum…but I assumed you were referring to mafia and not including the potential SK your role would suggest. Did you ever voice the opinion that we were in a 14:4 set up and can you provide where you have mentioned repeatedly that your role is a red herring (at least prior to me bringing it up earlier today). I’ll ISO you after I make this post to check your post–crash commentary but I can’t recall you saying you thought your role was a red herring (i.e. essentially useless).

@redFF...I know you are lacking in motivation but could you try to answer the question I had to you regarding why you “half-hoped” Kamrun would get killed while blocking you?

Re: posts 162-169…..nevermind.

Re: post 171…nice OMGUS vote once I come out questioning you and your bodyguard status. Questions which have yet to be addressed due to your motivation level. Also…I do not recall you having any specific suspicions towards me pre-crash. Or DY for that matter. And you are willing to lynch Snake. Don’t we have enough incriminating info on the players who are posting to not have to do what would be essentially a blindly lynching a lurker lynch? And you express suspicions towards both of us while avoiding the player you had voted yesterday. Here is another question you can may or may not decide to bother with; what is your current read on DV? Do you think jason’s flip clears him?

@Ghostlin…My point was that if either of my main suspects (or anyone else for that matter) was to flip sk while DY still remained alive in the game…then DY would switch from an ever increasing subject of interest for me to a confirmed town. Yes…if DY is telling the truth that flip wouldn’t be from DV but it could still be red or anyone else who might be lynched or nk’d. However, The further we go without a 2 nd kill or an sk flip the more I doubt DY’s claim.

And red in unmotivated. Nice. BTW…why are you voting me?

Re: Ghosltin’s post 178…I had not given that any thought. I try not to get caught up in role speculation if I can help it. But since you asked, if there is a sk I would say the three roles are possible. I would still be up for a push on redFF as I could see him being scum (aside from your role speculation thoughts) or perhaps the elusive and rarely seen Insane Mafia World sk. Which! As a light dawns on me after typing the previous sentence….could the title of this game indicate some sort of shenanigans on the mod’s part relating to the sanity of some of our PRs?

@DV….I retract my question regarding your killed/roleblocked comments. Mea culpa. That said, I still think you are scummy as f*ck. Just your post 184 alone is scummy. It comes across indecisive and longing for confirmation (ie permission).

“DY is really scummy, but I don’t know what to do with him.”

WTF? How about a vote for someone you suspect (anticipating incoming DV vote). You list me as a top scumread. No surprise there given your scum hunting tactic of ‘so and so looked at me funny…THEY”RE SCUM!’ But why not vote me? Then you agree with the suspicions towards redFF and MOI (ie anyone but you) (still no vote) and end with a pretty please to everyone asking for validation of your thoughts.

Regarding those thoughts: I think a 2-shot doc is too specific of a role to be faked, and given the JK and the potential bodyguard PRs…could be a weakened mitigation for two killing factions. As I say above…if there turns out to be no sk I would support the logic in doubting all three PR claims are legit. As for the x-shot comment, if there is in fact a sk…who’s to say it isn’t an x-shot variety?

Also…do you have any reason for me being one of your top scumreads other than that I suspect you?

---

I haven’t had a chance to look over the 3 pages Zach put up (I’m on my phone). Can someone perhaps summarize any important points?

BTW mod…seriously…can we get a replacement for Snake? Also…would you happen to still have any of your initial posts from this game or any of the pre-crash death scenes?

[havingfitz]

EBWOP: VOTE: redFF

[havingfitz]

An OMGUS from hf and snake, what a townish wagon.

I agree it would be nice to know what Snake is thinking...a contribution of his reasoning/opinions would be nice. You can take your OMGUS accusation of me however and place it somewhere dark. Feel free to answer my questions while you are at it. (BTW...nice response time considering you are ~v/la)

Preview edit...ffs sake MOI. How my town read on Ghost anymore buddying than yours. At least I have provided reasoning (despite your opinion of it). I don't re all your reasoning...was it gut? Cause gut it a lot weaker than what I have.

[havingfitz]

what does me being v/la (which ends today) have to do with whether I'm scummy or not?

It doesn't. I find you scummy regardless of whether you are able to promptly respond to votes you receive while you're v/la.

[havingfitz]

Vote: Havingfitz

@DV….I retract my question regarding your killed/roleblocked comments. Mea culpa. That said, I still think you are scummy as f*ck. Just your post 184 alone is scummy. It comes across indecisive and longing for confirmation (ie permission).

“DY is really scummy, but I don’t know what to do with him.”

WTF? How about a vote for someone you suspect

(anticipating incoming DV vote).

You list me as a top scumread. No surprise there given your scum hunting tactic of ‘so and so looked at me funny…THEY”RE SCUM!’ But why not vote me? Then you agree with the suspicions towards redFF and MOI (ie anyone but you) (still no vote) and end with a pretty please to everyone asking for validation of your thoughts.

Also…do you have any reason for me being one of your top scumreads other than that I suspect you?

Called that. Care to answer my question?

I didn't like how he ultimately decided to vote Jason yesterday. He presented it as the logical choice when it wasn't.

Apparently you haven't been reading carefully either. I voted you yesterday.

I found his reaction to my questions to Alice really bad.

I've acknowledged I missed the connection between her comments and your question.

And even after saying that Jason being mafia makes me less likely, he still insists that I'm scum.

You conveniently left out the part of the same sentence where I say, re: jason scum flip, "I do not think this necessarily clears DV." An opinion which I am not alone in.

Fitz: Why are you so condescending regarding my scumhunting methods. My reads have mostly been correct so far.

You've completely ridden any wagon you weren't the subject of. D1 ended with you on DY (still TBD). D2 you hammered Palisade without any reasonable rationale (ie you were wrong) after spending much of the day on DY (YBD) and Snake (TBD). D3 you put a save yourself L-1 vote on IAI and got lucky. I do not recall you suspecting him prior to your vote. And yesterday was a 1v1 after jason claimed he saw you visit muffin. So your record is by no means "mostly correct." You have been in self defense/self preservation mode throughout the entire game. If I'm coming across as condescending towards your scumhunting methods it's becuase I think they are crap. They literally are focused on anyone who suspects you. coupled with your willingness to place a fakeclaim, your unwillingness to be tracked, and indecisiveness...I think you are scummy. The only reasons I'm not voting you now are 1)slight reprieve due to the D4 1v1 thing and 2)redFF is scummier ATT.

[havingfitz]

Sorry I've really confused myself. I haven't been paying enough attention.

Scum do not need to pay attention.

MoI: I'm not really sure how to answer that, but thanks for pointing it out and I'm going to try harder.

No answer is not a good answer (redFF…please take note.)

Also,I'm not going to objectively say that in that kind of situation there would definitely be scum voting for me,and I wouldn't necessarily think that there would be,but I don't think that is the situation here.

I think after reading this comment a few times because it was hard to follow…kind of like the typing equivalent of mumbling…what you are saying is is that you do not think there is scum voting you. Which I was doing… which you are holding against me. WTF.

As I said,Havingfitz was obviously putting thought into the situation and presented his reasoning for voting for me (I got it right this time!) as completely logical. However,it completely disregards who was more likely to be scum (Jason self-watching all the time didn't ring any alarm bells?) and I thought my arguments for me being town were pretty good too.

I did put thought into my opinion. You should try it. I did suspect Jason and if not for his claim I probably would have voted him D1 or 2. Once his claim was confirmed he bought himself even more time IMO. I’ve clearly outlined my rationale for voting you over him. You may recall there were several other players voting you over Jason yesterday. I don’t recall your town arguments and I will see if I can find them after this post but I’m sure if they had been of any substance I would recall them and not suspect you as much as I do.

So,it looks to me like he was trying too hard to vote me while making it look logical,despite not considering what town would naturally consider. Another thing about HavingFitz is that

1) his reasons for thinking me scum throughout have basically boiled down to my suspicions being OMGUS

,but

2 )considering that my major suspects this game have been IaI,Jason,DY,Fitz (and even he was a leaning town read at one point),this being two flipped scum and two unflipped,

I don't think his reasoning makes any sense anymore,as I would've thought it assumed who I suspected was town.

1) This is not true at all. I have continually given you flack for your OMGUS voting/suspecting reliance but it has not been the only reason I suspected you. From page 1 of this game I was pointing out your contradictions. You have continued to vote with little or no rationale. Your unwillingness to be tracked was scummy. If you were town it could have been phrased “If you want to waste a track on me feel free to but the track would be better served on someone else” etc. Your admission that you would or had considered fakeclaiming was also extremely scummy. When does town ever fakeclaim? How’s that for considering what town would naturally consider? 2) first off…I do not recall IAI being a major suspect of yours. Most of his votes came in conjunction with zMuffin’s investigation results on him. I would absolutely expect there to be scum on his wagon once he was outted by zMuff. Same with Jason…I do not recall you going hard after Jason until he put you in a 1v1 situation at the start of yesterday. By that point he probably knew coming into the day that he was toast and by implicating you…set up the 1v1 where you HAD to vote him. The question is was that claimed result of his on you to throw others off your trail or did he actually think it would spare him another night. IMO if you actually are town and he was going to try and extend his life another night he with a concocted result, he (mafia) would have been better served implicating someone who was perhaps a bit behind the scenes but not generating a lot of suspicion (myself….Thor aka jon_h61/perhaps Ns) and saving you for a potential mislynch later on. So your two votes on scum in no way absolve you. In addition to those you had the unexplained hammer on Palisade (when you switched from the equally substantial Snake wagon …I believe they were both at L-1 when you switched to Palisade… WHO you had not indicated previous suspicions towards iirc) and you were pushing DY on day 1 before RedCoyote got himself modkilled. So who knows what to make of that day. And has your early game DY suspicions subsided? It would appear not but you haven’t voted him since late in D2…even though you keep skirting around the fringes indicating you suspect him. As for me,your vote and suspicions of me throughout the entire game…aside from when you had a town lean towards me (translation…when I wasn’t focusing on you)…has been nothing but OMGUS.

I also think DY suspecting me is very wrong, but I'm not sure about him yet and will decide later. Also,I don't know how likely it is that DY and Fitz are scum together. This is because I'm thinking there's probably one scum member that didn't attack me (this could maybe be IaI,but even he "suspected" me). MoI, what do you think of this?

DY OMGUS. Don’t suspect him too much…you might actually have to vote him. You appear to be suspecting MOI over redFF in the Ghost proposed re dFF/MOI either or scenario. Your solicitation of his opinion over red’s… and over Ghost or Alice’s for that matter seems unusual. As if you know his alignment.

Jon keeps coming up as possible scum to me, mainly because he kept throwing his vote around right after crash without actually knowing anything,but no one else seems to find him scummy,and Thor was a townread.

What? I do not recall you putting any suspicions towards that slot this entire game. Is this more OMGUS? What’s funny to me is…looking at your wagon yesterday. At it’s peak you had 5 votes (twice) from a total of sixplayers made up of: redFF,jon_h61,Ghostlin, DY,Jason,and me. Other than Ghoostlin who some consider confirmed town…you have suspected everyone on your wagon. I also find it funny that I was the last one yesterday to place a vote on you. Freshest in your memory perhaps?

@Everyone: What is your opinion on MoI's provided reasoning for protecting me. I think it's really strange and doesn't match up with how I'd think as a doc (especially a 2-shot doc),but I want other opinions.

I am mid post and do not recall his exact reasoning but I do know D1 was abbreviated due to the modkill and perhaps everyone’s reads were still not firmly established. FTR I wouldn’t have protected you I also think I have a question or two directed your way that still needs answering but I’m not going looking for them att from my phone.

Alice: Can you please answer my questions to you that you haven't answered?

The same request goes from me to you and redFF.

@DY Your response to my post is an example of why I think you're scum.

Too funny.

[havingfitz]

1)

-I don't think I've voted (since RVS anyway) with little to no rationale.

2)

-Why do you think scum would tell Alice not to track them?

3)

-How is my admission that I considered fakeclaiming scummy at all? First,of course I considered fakeclaiming when it looked like I was going to be lynched. I obviously decided it wasn't a good idea in the end,but why do you think scum would mention it?

4a)

-I always considered IaI a leaning scum read and it got stronger with Baseline's scum read. I also did vote him a couple of times before the massclaim if that's what you care about.

4b)

Regarding Jason,he was my major suspect before claiming watcher and I agreed that he should be lynched yesterday before he claimed his result,

4c)

and I expressed suspicion of him before IaI was lynched,but decided IaI was more likely scum.

5)

-Um,you do realise that the hammer on Palisade was an hour before deadline...

6)

-I'm not saying *I suspected scum therefore I'm town*,I'm saying *I suspected scum therefore my reads are not useless OMGUS*

7)

-My suspicion on you has been a fair bit other than OMGUS

8)

I think your reasons for suspecting me a really bad and some of the inclusions are even worse (like the fakeclaim one).

9)

I haven't really suspected Red all that much recently either if it makes you happy.

Bolded numbers above were input by me. My responses to those numbers is below:

1) I disagree. iirc you have either sheeped other players with little or no reasoning,OMGUS anyone who looked cross-eyed in your direction,or made obvious votes when the choice was obvious to you (ie IaI’s outing & the Jason 1v1).

2) Seriously? Maybe so she wouldn’t track them? If you say scum would never do that that would be a nice example of WIFOM.

3) You decided fakeclaiming wasn’t a good idea and yet you wonder why I do not think it was a good idea? The only reason one fakeclaims is to deceive and I stand by the opinion that scum are out to deceive town more often than town is out to deceive town.

4a) At least part of this is a lie. You did not vote IAI a couple of times before the massclaim. You had the lone vote on him on D2 for all of 18 game posts (not by you but by everyone: posts 1362-1380). That was your only vote on him until zMuff outted him. I’m also not sure if that lone vote you place was before or after the massclaim. Does anyone know what post number the massclaim began with? I think it is in the mod’s archives that he provided but I can’t access them over my phone. Either way…you are at best,over-exaggerating your suspicions towards IAI and at a worst,lying about your votes’ proximity to the massclaim AND doing some light bussing.

4b)

As for Jason…you were the first to vote him on D1…which came across as baseless OMGUS posting at the time but in hindsight could have easily been an early bus. As for your suspicions towards Jason before he claimed his result yesterday…that could have easily been laid out for you in a scum QT with Jason. “Hey DV…start out tomorrow throwing suspicions my way and I’ll come back at you with a confirmed watch on you.” Potentially distancing and bussing all wrapped into one.

4c)

I’m not sure what the point is of this comment is. You had a vote D2 on Jason (when he was a claimed watcher and at the height of whatever credibility he may have had) for a few posts (1380-1397) but otherwise did not appear to prefer him in any way to IAI. A short lived vote here or there in no way indicates a commitment to your suspicions IMO. It just gives you something to pad your “town” resume with.

5) I have no way of looking back at time stamps or knowing when a vote was made in conjunction with a deadline. All I know is is that I do not recall you suspecting Palisade and you moved from an L-2 Snake wagon to hammer Palisade. And I do not recall you making a single peep towards Snake since then. Not even in your post 215 which appears to lay out your prime suspicions. What is your current read on Snake? Who it may be worth mentioning did not vote either you or Jason yesterday.

6) Whahuh? I’m saying your reads

are

useless OMGUS and I’m saying the fact you were on two obvscum wagons

doesn’t

make you town.

7) Please elaborate. And please make it more than…I didn’t like what he said. Something meaty would be nice.

8) Which of my reasons for suspecting you do you agree with and how can you defend against them? Other than saying ~“No they aren’t.” or ~”I know you are but what am I.” [Editor’s note…those are not actually quotes from DV]

9) The fact that I suspect redFF makes your lack of suspicion towards him perfectly acceptable IMO. So yes…that makes me happy.

---

I’m not in agreement with the current push on DY. It appears as though his wagon (at least on Alice’s part) is based entirely on the legitimacy of his claim. His claim aside…I have had a town read on DY for most of the game and the claim only added to that IMO,initially at least. We know he has the ability to visit other people so he is a PR of some sort. If he were scum…why would he have visited DV and why is DV still here? I agree,the lack of two kills on any of the nights brings his claim into doubt,but there are any number of reasons there could have been only 1 kill each night. And considering the first NK was a “murder” while all the others have been “kills”…leads me to believe there are two killing factions. If the game was to get to LYLO and DY was still around and there had not been any SK flips or any double NK’s… then I think he would be a prime candidate for the kill. But until there is a little more evidence/track record to subtract from his claim…I would not support his lynch over DV’s or redFF’s….who I might add has an equally dubious claim ATM which has failed at least twice! One of his fails could be accounted for by the Kamrun keep but last night’s remains in question.

[havingfitz]

Alice...give DY a little slack and see what the next night or two brings. If he isn't proven legit by then town can off him then. Go for redFF or DV.

redFF...are you saying you would support a Snake lynch or are you just trying to predict the future?

[havingfitz]

What about DV and jon_h61?

[havingfitz]

Would you support either of their lynches?

[havingfitz]

Alice...give DY a little slack and see what the next night or two brings. If he isn't proven legit by then town can off him then. Go for redFF or DV.

I gave Jason slack for a couple days when he should have been the lynch instead of Palisade. I'm going to keep voting my scumreads. Also, I think you and DV have very bad tunnel vision on each other.

Why would you want to lynch jon?

I've found DV to be scummy since page two pre-crash. I'm not going to absolve him of suspicion when he has done nothing to alleviate those suspicions. Tunneling or not.

As for jon..I never said I wanted to lynch him...I just wanted to know what red's stance on everyone was. At least on the players I don't consider confirmed.

[havingfitz]

Unfortunately we can't all have the infallible scumhunting skills that you possess MOI....they're the bessssst. Well..as long as we don't count your D1 tunneling on zmuff and the as yet tbd alignment focus on DY and Snake D2. You did get the scum on a silver platter lynches D3 @ D4 right though. Good work.

And aside from the fact I am not currently voting DV....ie not pushing his lynch atm...why is he (or red for that matter) a less attractive wagon to you than DY?

Other than doubts about his claim...which could still be proven with the right lynch or nk/s result...I do not see DY even in the same zipcode of suspicion as DV and redFF.

[havingfitz]

Will have to start looking for replacements for Snakeplissken and Ghostlin

suck

[havingfitz]

Recent evidence being that stuff that Alice said.

And, you know, the high probability that you're actually the SK and faked the role to throw us off.

My vote stays.

I need to catch from the weekend ...I think MOI had some posts worth comment. This NS post get one first though.

If you believe this NS, then you must also believe Kamrun kept either DY or DV. If that was the case that would mean you also believe redFF is lying. That would make a red vote more correct than a DY or DV vote.

More red votes please.

[havingfitz]

Mod - sorry I'm going to have to request replacement. I'm not getting on the site very much currently due to IRL issues + I have my next modded game about to start. Sorry to all.

1) The mod has been looking to replace you since this past Saturday.
2) So you have time to mod a game but not time to continue ignoring this game?

Thanks for replacing in

[havingfitz]

OK...catching up from page 10ish.

The way the DY wagon built up so quickly (0-4 in 8 posts) seems scummy IMO. Given that Alice is the only ~confirmed town that leaves (surprise surprise) DV, NS, and redFF as scum candidates. Of course this also depends on whether DY is scum or not but given my current opinion towards him (leaning town) I find his quick wagon scummy. I then like how redFF...who hopped on the wagon himself was then quick to hop off the DY wagon once he had decided NS's vote was too suspect for his tastes. This despite calling NS out for his DY vote in the same post he (red) voted for DY. On that note, I would like to hear NS's reasons for voting DY. What changed your position towards DY after you told him he was probably town?

@MOI 1) I never realized you had a sense of humor. Hmmph 2) I find DV's play to be scummy. I have given my reasons why. The fact I have backed off on him slightly because of a) jason's scum flip and the bussing that would have had to have occurred between the two and (more importantly) b) the fact I find red a stronger suspect on this day....does not mean I'm going to pass up the chance to point out the error of DV's ways. Kind of like my continued dialogue with you. 3) DV is far less likely to be scum? You thought you made that clear? Unfortunately we don't all value your opinion as much as you do. Too funny. 4) My opinion on DY wagon being based on his claim being bad comes from Alice's case on him. I get the impression all her points against DY are stemming from not believing his claim. I believe that to be an accurate assessment of her suspicions/vote....which would appear to be the impetus behind the subsequent L-2 wagon that developed on DY.

NS..what recent events made DY you top suspect again?

OK..I see you have responded to this in later posts. Seems a bit weak IMO but you at least have addressed it.

@MOI...I agree with your "Muffin dying early means scum in VT theory" to a degree. Based on DY's post 261 13:4:1 hypothesis I think there has to be scum (1 or 2) in VT but, likewise...I think there is scum (1 or 2) in claimed PRs as well. So I would not defer from voting my top suspect based on whether they were in the VT or PR groups. Also...re: post 292...you say you feel crippled without being able to look at VCs. If there is something you want to know I can provide it. I have logged all the votes made for the entire game. I can't tell you what the mod's votecounts said because I do not know when he made them but I know who voted who and when. And also...when did 5 Mafian's become a consideration? I assume that would mean you do not think there is an sk in the game which would imply you think DY is either lying or a red herring. ??? 5 seems a bit much and I hope that is not the case.

---

My top two suspects are still red and DV. NS had made a bit of a move up my suspect list with his hop on DY's wagon and his associated ~rationale. I still think red's quick hop on and off the DY wagon is suspect and considering my top two suspects were so quick to jump on the DY wagon...that reinforces (c-bias?) my opinion that DY is legit. If there is an sk in this game I think it is probably either red or DY. Snake's absence has reached the point where I can not keep ignoring him. He is still at least 3 deep on my suspect list so I hope it doesn't come to lynching a lurker but still...what play he has contributed in hindsight has not been very pro-town.

So my top suspects ATT are:
redFF
DV
NS-Snake
DY (obv this drops to the bottom if an sk is killed/lynched or there is a 2nd NK)
MOI-jon (re: jon, no real pro-town reasons...more of an absence of anti-town play, newness, POE)

and the rest are cleared IMO.

[havingfitz]

MOI post made it in before I phone posted my last post. Looks like my 5 scumteam question to MOI was addressed. Still...can you clarify what you think the current set up is? Do you think we are in a 4 mafia + 1 sk game, a 4 mafia and no sk game, or a 5 mafia and no sk game?

[havingfitz]

Zzzzzzzzzzzz....

Also, DV...your posts make no sense toady. Are you trying for that effect?

[havingfitz]

Looks like a welcome burst of activity. Unfortunately I am going to have to go

v/LA until Monday.

Easter activities (family, cleaning, cooking, Eastering) are keeping me from addressing some MOI and Tammy comments. Welcome Magua and Tammy. If I can sneak some (additional) posting in I will.

[havingfitz]

OK...little bit of a catch up from Friday:

@MOI... post 335...you say odds DV is scum with Jason are slim...but wouldn't that be the objective of their play towards each other? Both have received a large amount of suspicion over the course of this game and anything to provide some clearance...to either of them...would be worth the bus. And why are you asking me if DV is a SK when you and I both know DY got a negative return on him? Useless questions are useless. And I do not have DV "tucked" anywhere. He has been a suspect of mine this entire game. Here's a hypothetical for you.....if you found yourself in a 3 person LYLO with Magua and DV, who would you vote and why?

Glossing over the muffin VT stuff....if it's still an issue my recollection is that muffin's ability told him whether a player's role PM contained the word Vanilla.

I'm not sure how Snake/Tammy suddenly became the frontrunner to be an SK. If it's based simply on Snake's flakiness that seems like a poor reason. As mentioned earlier iirc, if there is an SK in this game my frontrunner would be redFF. On that note...

redFF

...could you proved who you "protected" the first 2 nights?

@Tammy...post 350...regarding my opinion that Ghost/Magua is town because they are a neighborizer. Uh...yeah. Based on my personal experience, which is what I base all my scumhunting on, I lean towards a confirmed neighbor being town vice scum. I'm sure there are examples where this hasn't been the case, as pointed out by MOI (and only MOI), but that's my opinion. He's is so low on my suspect list he might as well be confirmed. I am not making my assumption in a vacuum btw. Similar to my view of DY and his claim...I did have a town feel towards Ghostlin and his confirmed claim only supports my town opinion towards him. And Magua's play so far hasn't changed my opinion.

@Tammy...post 360...you would not be my first choice as a SK. You could be but I think Snake's attendance record is a weak reason. And I already answered you post 361 question from your post 350 @Tammy...post 363...it doesn't. I was just pointing out that Kamrun being neighbored had no bearing on his alignment.

@Magua...post 370...the points you bring about Snake possibly being an SK could similarly be applied to redFF. We know he was jk'ed the night muffin died and there is a possibility he could have been jk'ed the night Kamrun died. This could explain the lack of 2 NKs for those nights and point to him being an SK that was jk'd. I do not remember his actions the first 2 nights but N1 was obviously a mafia block (via the jk) and N2...who knows? The SK could have targeted the same victim as mafia...could he have been jk'd? Could he have targeted someone the Doc protected? There are equally valid possibilities to a red SK as anyone else still being considered.

@Tammy...post 375...I'm providing my recollection in the post you ask for my recollection. Do you still have a question on my comments? I seem to recall someone else (Alice?) elaborating a bit on the event as well. Lemme know.

@NS...post 404...prior to today you never place a vote on Snake/Tammy's slot. Now you are voting and accusing her of being the SK in the same post you say DY is scum. WTF? If you honestly thought Tammy was the SK wouldn't that clear DY? I do not like this post/vote rationale at all. You are solidly entrenched in my top three with red and DV. On the subject of you and DV being among my top three targets...I find it interesting that neither of you has ever voted the other....throughout the entire game. This despite DV being a lynch front runner D1 and D3 and you being a frontrunner today.

Still prefer red or DV lynches but would move to NS if deadline was near and options 1 & 2 weren't getting any support.

[havingfitz]

OK...I'm still not seeing how redFF is avoiding a lynch today. It seems like the sentiment of the town has changed to where people are thinking there is an SK versus earlier opinion (the whole red herring thing) that there wasn't an SK (i.e. DY was lying).

Despite the single NKs N1-4, I think it is a slam dunk pointing in redFF's direction if there is a SK. I'm sure I'm leaving out a few facts and a lot of assumptions but here is my current thinking:

Assumption - There is an SK
Assumption - DY is telling the truth and is an FBI agent
Assumption - Kamrun jailkept redFF N4 (which facilitated Kamrun's death

and somehow affected the SK's action

)
Assumption - The SK would benefit from targeting DY more than players who would also be prime Mafia targets
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fact - We had a different NK flavor N1. This points to mafia's kill not going through which is also supported by Kamrun keeping IAI N1 (iirc)
Fact - We have had three consecutive SK kills not go through (based on NK flavor).
Fact - We have a claimed FBI agent who claims to have non-SK results in DV, me, iirc NS, and fill in the blank for the next one which I do not recall...but am pretty sure does not include Tammy nor redFF. Fact - Despite claims to have protected zMuffin and Kamrun the last two nights, zMuffin and Kamrun are both dead and redFF remains alive.
Fact - Kamrun jailkept redFF N3 (which facilitated zMuff's death

and somehow affected the SK's action

)

The N1 SK kill was a success. A N2 failed SK kill could be explained by whoever the SK targeted having received a protection of some sort (who did MOI claim to protect N2?).
The N3 and N4 single kills are too perfectly coincidental to redFF's assumed jailkeeping to not point directly at him as the SK.

Nowhere does this same coincidental logic apply as strongly to anyone else in the game. People are pointing at Tammy as an SK solely based on Snake being absent. We don't know Snake's schedule and how hard is it to get a PM off to the mod in a 72-hour night period? I'd argue the odds are a lot less than any other explanation that doesn't point to redFF.

If people wake up and redFF does wind up being the lynch...I will be amazed if he flips town/bodyguard. On the off chance he does...DY investigates one of the 1 or 2 players he has yet to clear and Alice tracks whoever she wants. It's in scum's best interest to hit the SK so I assume they would have a 50-50 chance of hitting the SK. If DY states who he will be investigating scum could target the other player. Either way the SK is outted and we can get that lynch out of the way. This would probably lead to a few town kills as well but we could get lucky with an Alice track (if mafia decide to cooperate on the SK hunting). But I think this would all prove worthless hypothesis based on my belief redFF would flip SK.

Note: This is all SK hunting logic and does not apply at all to any mafia suspicions. Tammy (as well as almost everyone else) could still be mafia...and if there is a mafia case on her...by all means, strong her up. However...SK or Mafia...scum is scum and:

Tl:dr:

Tammy is much less likely to be the SK than redFF. VOTE redFF.

Thank you.

[havingfitz]

Magua...I think you are town but that doesn't mean I have to agree with you. And just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't make them an idiot so please refrain from passing out ad homs...it detracts from your otherwise solid posting.

As Tammy mentioned...the fact you think red is scum but don't want to lynch him is ridiculous. If you think he's focking scum then he ain't a focking bodyguard and Alice is screwed either way. I'd rather get rid of a player whose play has been scummy and has a high probability of being the SK and avoid a two NK night. Do you not see how red is a better fit as the SK through his jailkeep (or two) instead of Tammy because Snake was a flake? FFS.....get rid of the player you think is scum.

If you [Magua] don't want to...fine....everyone else vote red please. BTW...I see the logic about red dying if Alice dies but I'd rather hit the SK now rather than after he's been allowed to make a kill BECAUSE HE FINALLY ISN'T BEING JAILKEPT! Just an opinion mind you.

BTW...for those pushing Tammy as SK because Snake was a flake...did anyone happen to notice that Snake was posting onsite (Mar 21st) while we were in N4 (Mar 20-23)? Hmmm? So much for that theory. FFS.

goodnight

[havingfitz]

Why are people pushing a MOI lynch over our other options? If the reason is that he is still alive, I would disagree for two reasons: 1) His ego does not need any more fueling and more importantly 2) all the NK's up to this point have been PRs of greater interest than MOI.

MOI...who did you use your protects on again?

DY...who have you not investigated yet? Who is still a possibility for a potential SK (redredredredredredredredFF)?

I will support these lynches: redFF, DV, NS.

[havingfitz]

Re post 422...Tammy, I was investigated by DY as well and I'm no SK.

If you [Magua] don't want to...fine....everyone else vote red please. BTW...I see the logic about red dying if Alice dies but I'd rather hit the SK now rather than after he's been allowed to make a kill BECAUSE HE FINALLY ISN'T BEING JAILKEPT! Just an opinion mind you.

If you'd rather hit the SK now rather than later, why are you advocating a redFF lynch?

Huh? I would rather hit the SK sooner than later and that is exactly why I am advocating a redFF lynch.

Do you think redFF-SK claimed bodyguard, knowing that it would mean he could not get to endgame alive?

Who knows what people are thinking when they feel compelled to make a fakeclaim…especially as early as we claimed in this game? Can someone confirm who claimed their role first? If redFF knew zMuff could out him as a non_VT or that DY would claim FBI, who knows the thinking that led to a bodyguard claim. Considering we’ve had two NKs in a row on players red supposedly protected…I’d say his claim hasn’t worked out very well no matter how you look at it. And if we/he were lucky enough to get rid of all the mafia before his claim was proven to be bogus the fact he was a claimed bodyguard would not have been an indictment of him in any way.

Because here's what I believe: I believe that tomorrow, either redFF-town will be dead, or Alice-town will be dead and then we'll lynch redFF.

Your way simply ensures that Alice will be dead, regardless of whether redFF is town or not.

I get this. I realize it is a risk (assuming redFF is telling the truth). I do not see him as telling the truth…and I must say…his defense on this day has been pretty lurkish/weak. From the POV that red IS the SK…I view his death as preventing an additional townie from dying tonight. And assuming that additional townie is NOT DY….then we have IMO another even more confirmed townie [DY] than, you [Magua].

DY: I don't really know, probably more to annoy fitz than anything else.

I want to believe you're town. I really do, but I just can't.

Sorry.

Magua: I don't think that using fitz voting me along with jason is a good towntell because I think there was a decent wagon on me before that which I'm pretty sure had Alice, Lowell, NS, maybe someone else.

I'll lynch DY, Fitz or Jon today.

So DV...based on your continued suspicions towards DY is it safe to say you do not think there is a SK in this game?

Also...my vote on you was the first real vote you received (post 19). There were two other votes [Lowell/redFF and Palisade] on you at the time (both RVs iirc) and my vote was followed by Alice, Jason and camn. So no...there was not a decent wagon on you before "that".

Why would you vote Jon???

OK...less than two days from the deadline. Red to my complete and utter amazement is not being considered for lynching in order to eliminate the SK. (WTF???) DV has a lone vote on him which I would move to if it developed. Nobody Special has gone completely off his rocker on this Day. Combined with his lack of posting on the previous days I'll chalk it up to balking under the pressure combined with self preservation mode (ala DV). Seriously? An Alice vote?

Lot of single votes need to pick a wagon.

I'd go back to red in a heartbeat. DV would be nice. NS has legs though and is just as nice.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Nobody special

If red doesn't wind up being the lynch today...how do we want to proceed to eliminate as many people from SK consideration as possible? And who is still up for consideration?

redFF

(ding ding ding ding!!!)....MOI despite his Doc claim....Tammy? Anyone else or are they that last three potentials? I assume Alice and or DY will be dead tonight but on the off chance they both survive (along with redFF), we should be able to ~clear 2 more people from SK consideration.

[havingfitz]

One day from deadline, and literally the ONLY two wagons are...me...and the player I just said I didn't want lynched today. Blerg.

Unvote. Vote: NS. This is L-1.

I would say nobody should hammer without giving NS the chance to post final thoughts, but he clearly can't tell up from down in this game anymore, so whatever.

Unrelated, Fitz blatantly admitting he wants to get rid of the SK sooner rather than later is scummy. Of course scum want the SK out of the way, the potential for crosskills lowers the chances of any individual scum faction winning the game. Obviously, he's not today's lynch, but still,

FOS Fitz.

This seems very hypocritical to call me out for wanting to vote someone I suspect more than anyone else...then against your ~will [hypocrisy]you vote someone you don't want to vote![/hypocrisy] WTF? If there aren't two kills tonight you'll make a big jump up my suspect list. Unbelievable. And while hitting either the ~SK or mafia would be nice today, which I state in one of my recent posts BTW...if I had my choice I'd rather hit the SK and avoid 2 kills tonight. And IMO redFF could be either scum OR SK but based on the two single NKs when he was most likely blocked....everything points to him as a SK. Scummy either way, but my frontrunner for SK. Some nerve you have calling me out when I'm standing by my convictions while you are hopping all over the place and voting people you do not want to. Cry me a river. Unbelievable.

FOS back atcha DY

On that note...and a Pre-view edit...I see MOI protected Alice N2. I think this lends credence to his [MOI's] doc claim as I could very well see an SK targeting the tracker.

---

I don't think DV is the SK. I think it's very likely that he's scum.

Agreed. I can't see any way DV would be the SK as that would be all kinds of screwed up risk taking on DY's with his FBI claim and result on DV.

@Fitz: Muffin claimed last, so red wouldn't have known.

DV

, would you be down with lynching HF today?

On the muffin claim...thanks. Not sure it changes my suspicions towards redFF but it does take away one small possibility. Did redFF claim before or after DY?

As for the "Would you lynch HF" question to DV. I feel confident in answering for him...Yes he would. He's made that clear. Why are you asking him or was that a typo?

---

OK...deadline today. Thinking out loud....my top suspect [redFF] is still amazingly not getting any attention. Everyone is everywhere with their voting. My top two mafia suspects are NS and DV...and they are tied at 2. A switch of my vote to DV gets him to 3 votes vs the 2v2 and I've preferred DV almost the entire game anyways so great.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: DV

While I think jon's play has been a little lacking...he doesn't come close the amount of suspicion I have towards my top three. i.e. I do not see me voting jon today.

[havingfitz]

@ DY...you failed to address any of my points made in my FOS post on you, My rationale for wanting to kill who I believe to be the SK (even now I would prefer his lynch to DV or NS's). All this while you are voting all over the place today,

including putting one of your "strongest townreads" at L-2. ??

And there is nothing goofy at all about my two nk comment...which is not intended to be veiled in any way. The reason "not two kills on ANY OTHER OF THE PREVIOUS FOUR NIGHTS?" is less significant than tonight is that the first 4 nights all had easily explainable outcomes. N1 appears to be a successful SK kill and mafia.IAI being blocked. N2-N4 look to be mafia NKs without further SK kills. The lack of N3-N4 SK NKs could be explained by 2 jailkeeps (N3-N4 both on red??????????????????????) and N2 could be explained by the Doc protect.

I do not remember D2's events enough to know if you were forecasting who you were going to investigate or why you may not have been the target. The fact you are still here works against you IMO. Especially if there is no SK flavor kill tonight and you are still here. In other words...and unveiled...if there is no apparent SK kill tonight and redFF flips bodyguard in what I assume will be the act of protecting Alice...you'll jump to the top of my suspect list.

As for my positioning on your list...that's fine...but where did jon go on your list? Or do you not really suspect him either...which would explain your recent vote on him too.

And nice work on the

misleading

vote count.

BTW, does anyone recall who Kamrun jailkept N2?

[havingfitz]

Fitz: If I promise to be nice to you until the end of the day, will you unvote?

There's no reason to.unvote. All the claims are out there and we're at the deadline and you're scummy. Nothing personal.

[havingfitz]

Wait, aren't we really close to deadline now?

Do I self-hammer or not?

Ok...I hate to say this but DVs last page or two have me doubting (gut) he's scum.

UNVOTE: for a bit.

Would still gladly go for red.

[havingfitz]

I had what I thought were legitimate issues with RedFF, but MoI convinced me I couldn't possibly be right.

I don't recall any pro-town cases on red that outweigh my suspicions towards him being the sk. I would still go for a NS wagon also if it materialized.

[havingfitz]

We have about 2 hours.

I misread the mod's deadline extension ...I thought we had until this evening. We have just shy of 3 hours. I'll be online via phone and will place a vote before time is up.

[havingfitz]

Damn...my timezone skills are off. 10am CST is still 20 minutes away. Even less time that I thought. Will vote in next few minutes..I want to look things over one last time.

[havingfitz]

@Magua...waste of a slot? I was going to say "Fuck you" but I didn't think the mod would appreciate it so instead I'll just retort with kiss my ass. Kiss my ass.

VOTE: DeasVail

[havingfitz]

So both wagons are willing to self vote. Nice. Where is my favorite suspect, redFF? Thanks for pulling the votes off that wagon Magua

[havingfitz]

Talk about timing....welcome to the game redFF.

[havingfitz]

I'm here until the deadline. I still don't see the jon scum thing. It's a case of lot's of stuff I suspect (DV) vs lot's of nothing (jon).

@Magua...to bring up what before now? My suspicions of red or the fact your defense of him is ridiculous? I think they both made the several days advanced notice.

[havingfitz]

I just recall you pushing for his pardon. There were others on it (DY and jon iirc). It had legs but you undercut it.

[havingfitz]

I kept trying to vote jon but red and Magua pre view edits kept getting in the way.

[havingfitz]

No bullshit. DV works though.

Pre-view blocked again. Keep laughing SK...you're up tomorrow.

[havingfitz]

Idiot...I did post again...then another block...and then again...and you switched.

[havingfitz]

No bullshit. DV works though.

Pre-view blocked again. Keep laughing SK...you're up tomorrow.

I think after this you are..

Uh...no...if you live tomorrow you aren't even a question of a doubt for the lynch and if you die....DY is the frontrunner (unless there is finally a 2nd kill).

[havingfitz]

When you say check redFF do you mean DY checking him?

[havingfitz]

Just noticed I'm being linked with redFF as mafia? WTF? I keep saying redFF is the SK. If he's mafia I have no idea who he could be linked to...but if he were mafia, why would I be linked to him considering my 2 day long push on him? Bussing in the face of many other worthy suspects? redFF and me as mafia together makes absolutely no sense. Coupled with the fact I'm not mafia but that's besides the point.

pre-view focking edit again....

What are you saying Magua...you think neither DY NOR Alice should bother with redFF? The only non-redFF people DY could look at would be Tammy and MOI iirc. Alice should track whoever she wants to.

[havingfitz]

Yeah, agreed...so DY needs to look at either Tammy or MOI and hope for 2 kills that do not include him.

[havingfitz]

Haaaaaaaaaa!!!!!! I focking told you all red was the SK!!!

If you'd listened to me yesterday we'd still have DY and he would be pretty much confirmed. Too funny.

Oh...and VOTE: redFF!

[havingfitz]

I know. And you're focked

Pre view edit...agreed on getting Tammy's take. Thoooooough...what do you expect her to say and if you're looking for peopless take...how about giving your's too?

[havingfitz]

Dunno what you want me to say, kind of dug myself into this.

Who is mafia?

Another preview edit. WTF are you talking about with MOI as the SK? You get an A for effort.

Pretend you are in fact the sk...who is mafia?

[havingfitz]

I said, you and CES.

So you ~think MOI could be the SK but not mafia?

PVE - that is correct Tammy. Why does it matter? If redFF isn't the SK I will sing who ever is' praises every chance I get.

[havingfitz]

If Red flips town we lose. If Red was town and knew that would happen, he'd be doing something today besides saying he'd give reads in a sec and not doing anything else. But town Red wouldn't have a reason not to protect Alice.

Well we finally have confirmation that there is a SK with the 2nd kill last so if redFF by some unbelievable stroke of bad luck/circumstance happens to be town...I do not think we lose because there would still be two opposing anti town factions...and who knows what would happen with the potential for cross kills, etc.

Town can still win this.

But redFF has got to be the *#^@! SK so it's a non-issue.

If it isn't red and turns out to be MOI my jaw will hit the floor.

[havingfitz]

Yea! Scum flip, scum flip, scum flip.

Can I hammer?

Magua, I and our mystery guest in the QT can hash things out post-flip.

I forgot about the neighbor thing once Ghostlin was gone and Kamrum died. Was your participation in the ~neighborhood previously revealed? Does it matter who the mystery guest is? Anything of value for us non-neighbors to be made privy of?

Oh...and Yea! Scum flip, scum flip, scum flip.

[havingfitz]

Working in the redFF-as-SK favor is that two of the three Nights there was no SK kill redFF was jailed by Kamrun.

Working against it is...yeah, bodyguard claim. It just...doesn't...work.

So I hope that redFF flips SK. I really, really do, because it's the sanest of all the possibilities.

But if he doesn't, the remaining SK must be either Tammy or MagnaofIllusion, due to Yoshi's investigations, and I lean Magna in that case. Partner mafia would likely be Nobody Special or havingfitz, I believe.

If red does flip SK, I'm still looking at Nobody Special as mafia, with maybe Magna as partner, but it's jenky. Pretty certain that Tammy is town in the event that redFF flips SK -- that's really my strongest read in that case, and havingfitz would be my second strongest townread.

I expect to die tonight, so I neighborized Tammy last Night -- pretty much see no reason to hide that.

Hmm...sounds like a familiar tune. Too bad coming to this decision a day late cost us DY.

Why thank you.

I would agree...though I'm the only one considering you confirmed town so your potential NK is apparently no sure thing. In fact...what looks worse? You still being here tomorrow or the Almighty MOI (now that all the PRs are gone)?

[havingfitz]

v/LA until Monday

[havingfitz]

Back from v/LA. Surprised to see CES coming at me strong ("we're lynching fitzscum?" WTF?). Considering he voted Tammy yesterday and kept his vote there all day despite redFF being an overwhelming choice for the lynch I would suggest you are in no position to be deciding anything. Your slot has been a non-entity this entire game and to replace in for someone bailing when his ship was sinking does not give you any weight other than that of your own vote. And how is a track on you an indication of you being town again? How many scum are you ~assuming were present when your track occurred?

With Magua gone now I would say no one has the bona fides to pronounce themselves confirmed town.

I'm on my phone all afternoon and will catch up throughout the day as I'm able to. My main suspect today is NS. I do not have a clear frontrunner for my #2 but the forcefulness of CES' push on me today is disconcerting. I don't think we can safely assume anything other than LYLO so it's in our best interest to take our time.

While I continue catching up...could you [CES] elaborate on the pattern of me appearing more clued in on things?

[havingfitz]

Fitz' post is boring.

Please answer my questions directed at you.

Having’s Post 705 strikes me as “Ooops, did I kill the wrong person at Night” given the ‘Why is CES coming after me’ stance.

Seriously? This is a weak reach to push suspicions onto me. If you think I am scum tell me why. And did CES' stellar play yesterday convince you the jon wagon you were pushing so hard for the day prior is no longer of value? In fact...not to leave out NS and Tammy, how would you rank your four fellow players remaining in the game?

[havingfitz]

Fitz' post is boring.

Please answer my questions directed at you.

Already explained; 3, one of whom was almost certainly engaged elsewhere; see #698.

Yes, but the Vanilla Cop is only the strongest role there if he’s capable of catching the scum. The Tracker would be a much more dangerous role if one of the remaining scum was Investigation Immune as a Godfather can still be tracked.

No. The Vanilla Cop was the strongest role there because it could confirm people as town.

MoI is still dodging the DV N1 protect question.

Funny you getting mad at MOI for dodging questions. How about this?

...could you [CES] elaborate on the pattern of me appearing more clued in on things?

Also...your post 698 doesn't really explain why you should be considered town. Your Post 692 tries to point to odds based on you being 1 or 2 remaining scum when in fact there were more than likely three based on your own assumptions of how many are left. So 1st) you throw out odds based on circumstances you don't agree with and 2nd) pushing out odds to defend or validate yourself is worthless unless they are 100%. So yeah...you are by no means confirmed anything.

[havingfitz]

CES...stop avoiding my question. Please back up your accusation.

[havingfitz]

mod/all, I'm v/LA until Sunday night. I'll be keeping tabs by phone but my ability to pore over content and comment will be very restricted.

If I get a chance to respond to CES' crap accusation on my trend of being more clued in I will...but suffice to say it's crap.

[havingfitz]

Just a quick check in on phone from vacation....I would put a vote down on CES for voting me in LYLO but the last game I played was a town loss (with 7 or 8 players left I might add) due to cross voting with town in LYLO. I'll wait till everyone else has had a chance to chime in (aka scum to pile on) and then I'll vote CES.

CES...if you ARE town you need to take your ~casual vote off me now!

And Tammy...I know demonstrating his case is crap is more important than saying it is. I can/will elaborate when I get back home. In the meantime if you (or anyone else not CES) think there is a pattern of events showing I'm "clued into things" I'd like to know it. I hardly think thinking redFF was the SK or Jason was the watcher constitutes inside knowledge. More like in your face facts combined with common sense.

[havingfitz]

SOMEONE PLEASE UNVOTE ME! If MOI AND CES are both scum then we're ok but if either of them are town we are screwed (assuming 2 scum left). I'll answer questions asap/tonight. And yes I have the spreadsheet I mentioned. I'm back from v/LA but I'm on phone and at work.


Not what best way to provide it would be but it definitely won't be over the phone.

Pedit...wtf are you talking about MOI wrt you and CES?

[havingfitz]

Short work check in...FMPOV one or both of CES and MOI are scum.

With me at L-1 and Tammy and NS passing up the hammer the entire afternoon, they have to be town.

If there is one scum left it could be either CES or MOI but if there are two remaining, it's both.

I'll vote however Tammy and NS want me to.

[havingfitz]

Post-post rethinking...disregard my earlier post. If there IS only 1 scum left then it could still be anyone. Most likely CES or MOI but not guaranteed. Could still be Tammy...or NS trying to stay off the mislynch. IMO though it's still more likely to be in the CES/MOI combo.

[havingfitz]

1) Hi Fitz, you're scums.

Excellent work. Your case against me is irrefutable.

I do have a spreadsheet with all the voting history from the start of the game if that would help anyone.

I missed this before. You have a spreadsheet with the voting history? You haven't made that available? I'd love to take a look.

I have made it available. I have had no takers (prior to NS's post just before yours). I'll try to load some screen shots of it asap.

I assume there is an SK. Iirc I assumed there was an SK even before DarthYoshi claimed FBI investigator but I can't recall why I assumed it. I know I was leaning town on DY before he claimed so therefore I am inclined to believe his claim. IMO his claim supports the existence of an SK, though the continued lack of a 2nd NK 3 nights in a row is causing me to rethink my SK assumption a bit. Verdict...I think DY is town but he could be scum. If he is scum, I think he is the sk.

Umm hai! You wonder why someone says you seem like you're clued into information you shouldn't be? Yeah, assuming there's an SK before the FBI Investigator even bothers to claim might be a starting point. I realize that you say you can't recall why you assumed it...TRY.

Also, you think someone is town but they could be scum...wtf??? (It doesn't really matter DY was town, but damn.)

Like I said...I don't recall what I was thinking when I wrote that post almost 6 weeks ago. Which referred to suspicions I had months prior to that. I assume I suspected there was an SK in the game (pre-FBI claim) either because of the flavor of the N1 kill or perhaps because of the size of this game (my largest game up until last week). As for the DY could be scum comment....at that point in the game there was a chance he could still be scum. I had a town read on him but the continued lack of a 2nd NK was starting to hurt his claims credibility. Even he was starting to doubt his claim.

Re: Tammy post 748...Anything was possible early in the game and my recollection of votes is entirely due to my recording them.

Re: Tammy post 749...No...the order of my suspects would now be CES/MOI...NS...Tammy.

Will try to get VC up asap...

Also...if either of you voting me are actually town...please take your vote off me ffs.

[havingfitz]

^ as requested....

[havingfitz]

I didn't think IAI was scum and then after zmuff outted him I didn't need/get to vote him with his self hammer.

Jason avoided my vote with his claim (which iirc was confirmed ...though his alignment wasn't). As I became more convinced he was scum I was also interested in using him to try and find the sk...basically use him until we didn't need him any longer. That suggestion didn't fly but I thought it had potential value.

[havingfitz]

MOI & HavingFitz, why no pile on the second to last day??? You guys had this won!!!!

Amrun, your hydra was impressive. Between this and RC's recent NY game, you have quickly risen to one of my favorite players to play with!

We never got the chance to pile on anyone. The only votes cast the 2nd to last day were ON me and moi.

I think bussing hurt the scum team. Moi basically had backed himself into a corner and had to vote me my last day. Otherwise I received very little attention (aside fom a few early suspicions that never gained traction). The failure to nk zmuff N2 hurt us as we lost IaI as a result. The last 4 townies in the game were portrayed by 11 players over the course of the game. jon_h61's departure especially hurt.

Enjoyed playing with everyone. Thanks for the invite! Zach...great modding.