Open 42 - Friends and Enemies - (Game Over) before 495

[Lemming1607]

I'm a lemming!

VOTE: Samruc

because he/she has been the most scummy so far in the game, and it will stay until he/she defends thyself from these damning accusations.

Also his/her name sounds like Sauron

[Lemming1607]

^
Bah.

Vote: EmpTyger

I see that you have no defense to your scumminess...and you also did a pre-cog OMGUS vote...you KNEW that Emp was going to vote you, didn't you? So you struck first. My vote stands

[Lemming1607]

Is this your attempt at taking us out of the random stage?

if you thought my last post was anything but a joke...oh man

scum

[Lemming1607]

So you are trying to keep us in the random stage then?

FoS: Lemming1607

I don't know how to respond to you being all serious, but if you want I can make a case for you on page 1 that's serious

[Lemming1607]

^
Bah.

Vote: EmpTyger

Samruc's first post, randomly voting someone...normal

A wagon? Where?

- Lynch! Lynch! Lynch!

Oh... You mean me.

Unvote, Vote: Simenon

OMGUS[/b]

Second post, immediately votes for the second person to vote for him...clearly OMGUS

Is this your attempt at taking us out of the random stage?

I have no idea how my post was taken as a serious. I see you trying to take us out of jokevote phase while we're still on page 1 really odd.

So you are trying to keep us in the random stage then?

FoS: Lemming1607

and then you FOS me for it?

yeah my vote stays for now, if we're going to make this all serious

[Lemming1607]

sorry, he voted for the 3rd person on the bandwagon, not the second...didn't see Emp there

[Lemming1607]

ah well, I apologize. I was just making a joke about you OMGUS voting someone before that person even voted, which is funny to me. all is well...

scum

[Lemming1607]

I meant that the person who he voted for as the third vote was OMGUS, while the one he voted for you was a joke vote. Your right though he did vote for both of you.

[Lemming1607]

just checking in to say I'm still alive! Working 14 hour days I have the next 3 days off hooray!

[Lemming1607]

Unvote vote Yogurt

ShanbaShanbaShanba. I vote with shaba.

guys, guys, look a connection. I found scum

[Lemming1607]

[bI'm[/b] going for the "vote a

s

many people as possible" ta

c

tic so I can point back to it and say "I told yo

u

so" at the end of the ga

m

e no matter w

h

o turns up scum. Empy gave me a slight

ly

scummy vibe so I switched to hi

m

, the

n

to yogurtbandit

c

uz I couldn't understand a word h

e

said.

I'm s c u m h l y m n c e

I'm scum lynch me

scum breadcrumb found

Unvote Vote: Shanba

[Lemming1607]

well now that we're out of joke vote stage

UNVOTE: Shanba

[Lemming1607]

If I thought he was scum I wouldn't be wagonning with him.

WIFOM

[Lemming1607]

can we get a vote count please?

[Lemming1607]

Sir T:
Lemming:
The mod is placing vote counts at the top of each page (ie every 25 posts). Which this post of mine will induce. So, what’s your new excuse for not contributing?

what the hell? there's only been three pages so far, and I work 16 hour days. The reason I asked for a votecount was so that I could post and contribute. What have you done besides call out lurkers and play town leader?

Anyways, not going to get all pissed off. I'm not sure why Emp has had a hostile tone in his recent posts, but hopefully he'll explain himself. There's no reason for that. I just got off a 16 hour shift and came to play a relaxing game of mafia...

There's only been 3 pages, and to me it's just been back and forth between pairs of people. The biggest thing that really strikes me odd is the Yogurt bandwagon, specifically Crub's 4th vote. My gut is saying that at least one of them is scum. Crub then OMGUS'd Jex when he was voted for 4th voting on the bandwagon.

I think he was just joking around, but until he actually contributes going to

Vote: Crub

. I don't like FoSing, just seems like, "well I want to say all this stuff about someone, but don't want to vote him and have my hands bloodied if I'm wrong."

Also hopefully Emp calms down

[Lemming1607]

<snip>What have you done besides call out lurkers and play town leader?<snip>

Let’s clear some things up right now about this game, for Lemming just as much as for everyone else.

There are no cops. There are no protown nightabilities. There are 3 confirmed innocents. That’s it.

The town will not win unless they can deduce mafia from dayactions.

(I’m going to ignore the possibility of mafia stupidity resulting in a town win, because in that case it almost doesn’t matter what the town does.) That requires players to be active during the day- *all* players. (Strictly speaking, the masons do not have to be active, because their alignment can be ascertained otherwisely; but it’s foolish for them to act differently.)

Now, examine the join dates of the players of this game. Mine is by far the earliest. So, barring replacement shenanigans, I expect to be a high profile target. I think there is a good chance I will not be alive D2. So if I want any chance of affecting the game, I’m going to have to do it *now*.

Look at who’s posted recently. Compare that to who I’ve been calling out. Then compare who hasn’t posted with who I’ve not. It’s an interesting enough correlation (albeit not perfect) that I think I want to follow up [60] with

unvote: Sir Tornado

and

vote: Khelvaster

.

Ok firstly, just because someone has a earlier join date to this site does not mean they are new to mafia...for example me. I've played on other forums quite a few times, and am not new to mafia. Be very careful treading down any, "I'm the earliest join date so therefore this stuff will happen" roads. Talking about who the scum will kill is WIFOM, and just leads to WIFOM arguments later in the game.

You're right about there being no cops, but even if there were investigation roles, that is still not an excuse to lurk. Vanilla townies are just as important to the game as cops, docs, or masons. The less discussion there is the easier it is for the scum to win.

That being said, there is a different mindset when it comes to friends and enemies. In most games, you look for connections between players and deduce scum from those actions...but unfortunately in a game of this type, it is quite easy to out the masons over the scum. If you find connections, be careful about pointing them out and using them as reasons to vote until we know alignments.

Also one thing that scum did in the last Friends and Enemies game was "buddy up" to players, and try to fabricate false connections between other players. Just something to keep in mind.

[Lemming1607]

Rereading the page, I see Crub defended himself. I saw his OMGUS vote as a joke, and that's what he says, so

UNVOTE: Crub

I will look at Yogurt tonight after work

[Lemming1607]

First of all, I think we need to talk about masons and connections. All that does is allow discussion about our only power role, and allows the scum to look for mistakes from the masons to easier pick them out. It does nothing but hurt the town to talk about this.

Good for you. Now, when the mafia are deciding who to kill, and who’re threats, do they have any idea about your personal history? No. If you want me to point to recent relevant precedents, I can.

There is still no reason to discuss who the mafia is going to kill. I made my point, and any further discussion is setting us up for WIFOM later on down the road.

Do you feel this has happened in this game, either in general or in a specific circumstance?

So far the only thing I've seen has been "obvious" connections and those people have already been called out on it, and I'm not going to repeat it. It's mostly something to keep in mind as the game progresses.

Again, we need to drop the mason discussion. It does nothing but hurt town

[Lemming1607]

First of all, I think we need to stop talking about masons and connections. All that does is allow discussion about our only power role, and allows the scum to look for mistakes from the masons to easier pick them out. It does nothing but hurt the town to talk about this.

Good for you. Now, when the mafia are deciding who to kill, and who’re threats, do they have any idea about your personal history? No. If you want me to point to recent relevant precedents, I can.

There is still no reason to discuss who the mafia is going to kill. I made my point, and any further discussion is setting us up for WIFOM later on down the road.

Do you feel this has happened in this game, either in general or in a specific circumstance?

So far the only thing I've seen has been "obvious" connections and those people have already been called out on it, and I'm not going to repeat it. It's mostly something to keep in mind as the game progresses.

Again, we need to drop the mason discussion. It does nothing but hurt town

[Lemming1607]

sorry about the quote, but I typoed something that kinda messed up the entire thing, as you can plainly see. I don't want to triple post either, but I'd rather keep different subjects in different posts. I don't have alot of time in the day to post so I gotta do what I can

As for the Yogurt Bandwagon:

this was his really confusing FoS post:

-...5 Ithink on the 1st page=not cool.

Fos: Simneon

Also, SDamrucs reactions seem scummy.

Mfos:Samruc

the Samrucs one I understand, since it's why I voted for him page 1. But the simenon one is a complete mystery. When everyone jumped on him his only defense was:

I really dont like everyone joking around with the whole stuff.

I didn't like his FoS'. This early in the game you don't need to worry about lynching too fast. FoS' are really for lylo so you don't end the game or when you've already voted someone. To me it just says, "I want people to start looking at this but I don't want my hands dirty if he turns up innocent." Townies don't need to look innocent, we are innocent.

And then after his only defense he's pretty much disappeared from the game. It could be a vanilla townie "giving up," or possibly scum hoping everyone forgets about them/him...either way it hurts us because that person doesn't add anything to the game.

I'm going to

Vote: YogurtBandit

. I believe this puts him at lynch - 1. If YB gets replaced, then I'll unvote.

Also Per hasn't posted in the last few days, could we get a prod?

[Lemming1607]

Unvote

The case there was on YB was weak. I voted for him and I admit that. Why, therefore, is this wagon growing this quickly and is this big? Unhappy bout that.

unvote vote lemming

What? You were one of the earliest proponents of starting a bandwagon on Yogurt. Now that's it at lynch -1, you're unhappy about your bandwagon?

Growing quickly? Your vote on him was on August 28th...like 8 days ago. You think that's quick?

[Lemming1607]

hello all sorry for not posting lately, but been working alot this weekend...weekends are the worst for me. I will catch up and post my thoughts

[Lemming1607]

The first phase is the random/joke voting phase. It’s one of the weirdest random voting stages I have ever seen (not that I’m very experienced, but anyway). I say big WTF? to lemming and Shanba. Lemming, because he seemed to be trying very hard to distract everyone from this game.

I don't see the jokevote phase that way. It's just a way to get people to start talking before we get into discussion of the format. I would say you were right about distraction if I had gone BACK to the jokevote phase after we started discussing mechanics and real votes started going everywhere.

Also I'm quite a creative person, and like my jokevotes to have a little more umph to them instead of what people usually do.

I also note a bandwagon on YB for no reason at all, probably to start discussion except it didn’t really start any discussion.

Actually it did start discussion...in fact about 3 pages of it or so.

I also don’t like Crub’s first post, just jumping on the wagon without making any other comments.

I agree

Lemming puts YB at -1 now and I really can’t believe it. You can pressure a lurker with a couple of votes to get him to post, but if the lurker persists, you don’t lynch him: you ask for him to be prodded and then replaced. Which Lemming obviously knows because he has asked for a prod on me in the same post.

Personally I find lurking scummy. To me it looks like he "gave up" after being outted. Why would someone who is innocent do that? Although I do admit that I'm used to 3 day time limit on games and 10 pages in 12 hour games, so the slow pace is a little different to me and I'm trying to adjust.

As I said, I will change my vote if he gets replaced

[Lemming1607]

YB has been replaced, so

UNVOTE: YB

I have the next two days off so after getting some sleep will reread the thread and post my thoughts

[Lemming1607]

Unvote
Vote Crub

What? this isn't jokevote phase. It's scummy to just vote for someone with no reasoning

[Lemming1607]

I don't like it when people vote for people because of voting styles. When I was a newbie my style changed every game because I learned alot from every game. Just because someone changes up their style isn't a scumtell, and if they're acting scummy then playstyle shouldn't be an excuse for scummy behavior

[Lemming1607]

ok so far I think the scummiest person is Simenon. He hasn't made a case for anyone, and has been hoping on other people's thinking without giving any reasons for voting himself.

VOTE: Simenon

It's like a semi-lurker that just agrees with everyone.

If I thought he was scum I wouldn't be wagonning with him.

This sums it up nicely. Emp had to ask him why he was voting, and he still didn't give a reason other than "think he's scum"

They might. They also, assuming the masons are all playing with a hint of intelligence, shouldn't know whether I'm a mason or not by N1.

In a game where the only power roles are masons, are you suggesting that the masons will be challenging to pick out?

Unvote
Vote YogurtBandit

This is my favorite one. "Emp why are you being weird VOTE SOMEONE ELSE AND BANDWAGON WITH EVERYONE ELSE"

Unvote
Vote SirT

Unvote
Vote Crub

Crub should die.

Are we seriously going to ignore this kind of behavior? Even if it's metagaming, scumtells are scumtells, and bandwagoning on everyone else's thoughts and not providing reasons for votes is scummy

[Lemming1607]

There is a small problem with your case. You have to turn up town first, which I don't think you will. Your post 162 reeks of scuminess.

Unvote

I somehow missed the Jex and CO votes on Crub.

Why are you voting Crub?

Explain to me how Crub is most definitely scum, and then you unvote when other people voted him, and you want to know why? That makes no sense.

I clearly explained the scumtells in my post. Bandwagoning with other people with no explanation, or using the explanation of, "I agree with other people." It's parroting and doesn't contribute at all. Scum can easily just use other people's reasoning to vote someone.

[Lemming1607]

No, I'm asking whether there may be other reasons for someone to bandwagon methodically.

I don't think methodical bandwagoning is scummy, so no, I'm not suggesting that.

I do. And no I don't see a reason to vote people without any reasons, and they be serious votes. Worst yet, you come out and say you're not going to tell us your reasons, and you have some type of "mysterious" reasoning. Sounds like you're lazy

[Lemming1607]

No, I'm asking whether there may be other reasons for someone to bandwagon methodically.

I don't think methodical bandwagoning is scummy, so no, I'm not suggesting that.

Here is your reasoning. I think bandwagoning without reason is scummy. You can call it "methodically" I call it "without reason." There I answered your question. Now explain why you're voting people with no reasoning or "methodically."

[Lemming1607]

Hi lemming!

I see you there!

This is the third time I have asked you to answer my question. I know this might be overload (lord knows if you would be able to do two at a time), but why do you insist on ignoring it?

How about you repeat your question then because I am under the presumption that I answered it

[Lemming1607]

And also Simenon I don't appreciate your tone. This is just a game after all, and obviously you're not being clear. Maybe if you actually put some effort into what you write you wouldn't have to ask three times maybe?

[Lemming1607]

Post 182 is not an answer to this:

Do you think that taking into account my previous statements to SirTornado, and the fact that all of my bandwagoning has been done in the same method and same number of votes, my bandwagoning is just a scummy coincidence?

Hey! I Know! Maybe instead of answering my question with a stupid cryptic question, you could actually come out and answer my question instead of making me do more work because you don't want to defend yourself, revealing your scumminess!

For reference, post 164 is where you never defend yourself against what I said.

You're not Socrates. Just answer the question. Why all the cryptic questions?

[Lemming1607]

An answer to my question will tell me from what angle I should approach defending myself. I'm trying to understand where you are coming from better before I commit to a defense.

I don't think my question is cryptic either.

Sorry that's not how it works. You see what you're trying to do is guide me into believing something. Whatever answer I give, allows you to properly respond to the situation. I'm not going to give you that chance. That's not how I roll yo.

I see your game, and it's like you believe you're smarter than everyone else and need to lead us to find out "inner selves" through questions. I don't play that game. I'm going to keep my vote on you until you answer the question, instead of trying to figure out what answer will satisfy me and say that.

[Lemming1607]

You see what you're trying to do is guide me into believing something. Whatever answer I give, allows you to properly respond to the situation. I'm not going to give you that chance. That's not how I roll yo.

oh well. :[

I see your game, and it's like you believe you're smarter than everyone else and need to lead us to find out "inner selves" through questions.

Read the question. Now read your "case". I wouldn't ask this question if I didn't feel it was necessary.
If you read my posts, I'm obviously acting the exact same way (every two votes gets a bandwagon vote from me). I'm asking you if that is a coincidence or not. If you aren't going to answer that, then I think it's of no use to me to answer your case.

I don't play that game. I'm going to keep my vote on you until you answer the question, instead of trying to figure out what answer will satisfy me and say that.

Have fun.

Why would you systematically bandwagon third vote everyone, assuming you're motivated about lynching scum?

[Lemming1607]

also you're a liar because you haven't voted for yourself yet

[Lemming1607]

I don't think bandwagoning is a bad thing...obviously no one would ever get lynched. My problem was that you gave absolutely no reason to each vote, and it looked like you were just trying to lynch someone, which is not what town needs.

Also answering questions with questions is ridiculous in my opinion, especially centered around a game that is all about accusing people

[Lemming1607]

Crub, you are like a broken record. Do you actually have anything on Sim or are you voting him for the heck of it? Or maybe it's just OMGUS?

I personally don't think Simenon is deserving of the wagon on him. He's not a bad vote, but I'd put him at least 4th or 5th on my list.

I voted for Simenon with I believe correct reasoning. I believe to have found a scumtell. Crub jumped on presumably to save himself. If you can call that a bandwagon sure.

I have to admit though I need to look at Crub again to see how's he behaving. I was paying attention to Simenon this entire time

[Lemming1607]

After a reread, I think I see Simenon's point.

UNVOTE

Sammich, what the hell? Didn't we already discuss this about not speculating who the masons could be on like page 3?

I'm agreeing with Shanba. Also Sammich OMGUS'd Shanba.

VOTE: Sammich

[Lemming1607]

"hey guys I'm scum and I'm going to make it look scummy to vote for me so that no one will and I will continue to live"

[Lemming1607]

I do believe two players have not voted, and I assume everyone is voting for who they find the scummiest

[Lemming1607]

so how come the last two pages or so everyone is just unvoting/voting the two leaders and nothing is getting accomplished.

Also it'd be nice to hear people's thoughts on the two bandwagons

[Lemming1607]

why are you "not willing to put your vote on sammich"

[Lemming1607]

ending this long ass day.

UNVOTE: Sammich VOTE: Crub

[Lemming1607]

oh hey, Sammich coming out with spaghetti FoS'. FoSing a whole bunch of people and hoping one of them sticks.

As for Crub, the mod was threatening a deadline many times in the game, and we were no where near a lynch for anyone else. I was tired of day 1, and nothing new was going to come up. I wanted the game to move on, and I did find crub scummy enough to vote him, I just thought sammich was a better case. Now that Sammich has thrown some spaghetti strategy out as well, I might look into voting him again for day 2.

Although I do like his page by page analysis. That is a nice summation

[Lemming1607]

I didn't HAVE to put my vote on anyone. I would and most likely will put my vote on people. I refuse to be too conservative, but sometimes I don't think a vote is needed. Is that too much?
I'm not trying to sow as much suspicion as possible, I'm saying who I think is scum and if you think it's scummy, then God help you.

But there are THREE scum. Not FOUR. You FoS'd more than there are scum, so obviously you can't think everyone is scum. That's why it's spaghetti strategy. You're throwing your suspicions around hoping some of it will stick and THEN you'll vote that person.

FoS: Sammich

I'm only FoSing because I don't want to lynch you until EVERYONE has come out and said what they believe. We need to hear everyone's thoughts before doing anything fast.

[Lemming1607]

Any argument based on what scum do is WIFOM honestly, because then you have people like Sammich who come out and accuse people.

What if Sammich is scum, killed SirT so he could make it look like suspicion would be put on him, so he could accuse people for that?

It can be played both ways, and is still WIFOM

[Lemming1607]

What if Sammich is scum, killed SirT so he could make it look like suspicion would be put on him, so he could accuse people for that?

But why would I kill SirT? He was one players least suspicious of me.

Let me emphasize my point. TALKING ABOUT WHY SCUM KILLED WHO THEY DID IS WIFOM.

[Lemming1607]

weird that your first post day 2 is to call out a lurker ChaosOmega

but I do agree that we need to hear from everyone before we lynch anyone. We need a record of people's thoughts for future vote analysis

[Lemming1607]

oh god you're right. :smacks forehead:

[Lemming1607]

As I've said for the hammer, I was just tired of the day and I found them both good options. We weren't getting anywhere, and the mod was threatening a deadline. I decided we'd gone on long enough and it was time to move the game forward.

I would like to know where you find my argument on sammich stretching though. He FoS'd 4 people, and there's 3 scum...that's blatant spaghetti strategy

[Lemming1607]

I welcome you Phate, who is replacing AlSleet, and forgot to pick up his prod

[Lemming1607]

But I don't like this vote analysis I'm making, personally.

You make a huge ass voting analysis, and then completely discredit it immediately?

I still think my case against Sammich is valid, and I'm going to vote him now. I didn't originally so that we'd have discussion and no quick lynch.

VOTE: Sammich

[Lemming1607]

I'm not going to unvote. We've had 4 pages of discussion since day 2 started, and he's done nothing to make me think I'm wrong. His spaghetti strategy I didn't like at all and I'm pretty damn sure he's scum.

[Lemming1607]

I'll start with Lemming, because I think it will be the shortest - Lemming, why did you hammer Crub? Why are you in favour of a quick Sammich lynch? I don't think you're scum, but I'd like to hear your detailed rationales for both decisions, if you will.

because I'm not used to such slow games and this was my first non newbie game of mafiascum. The games I'm used to days last 3 days and garner 500 posts for each of those days.

I was getting frustrated and wanted the day to end because nothing new was going to happen.

That's my detailed rationale

[Lemming1607]

hey all sorry for not contributing much. I work 16 hour days all weekend and won't be able to contribute much until sunday.

At this point I think it's silly not to believe Simenon is a mason, especially with no counter claim. I also agree a mass roleclaim is silly, since all it will do is out the other mason, assuming the scum say vanilla townie as well.

Anyways, Simenon is correct, we are at lylo and need to be careful with votes. 2 masons, 2 townies, and 3 scum left.

I will post again probably sunday. Sorry guys but I got debt to pay