Open 42 - Friends and Enemies - (Game Over) before 495

[Simenon]

Not so random

Vote:YogurtBandit

[/b]

[Simenon]

Unvote Vote Samruc

wagon[/b]

[Simenon]

I like my vote.

[Simenon]

-...5 Ithink on the 1st page=not cool.

Fos: Simneon

Also, SDamrucs reactions seem scummy.

Mfos:Samruc

???

[Simenon]

Unvote vote Yogurt

ShanbaShanbaShanba. I vote with shaba.

[Simenon]

We're voting

with

Shanba, not voting Shanba.

[Simenon]

If I thought he was scum I wouldn't be wagonning with him.

[Simenon]

Mod- I suggest you check over the vote count

Unvote
Vote Sanba

[Simenon]

Now, examine the join dates of the players of this game. Mine is by far the earliest. So, barring replacement shenanigans, I expect to be a high profile target. I think there is a good chance I will not be alive D2. So if I want any chance of affecting the game, I’m going to have to do it *now*.

You don't expect the mafia to go after the masons first?

[Simenon]

They might. They also, assuming the masons are all playing with a hint of intelligence, shouldn't know whether I'm a mason or not by N1.

In a game where the only power roles are masons, are you suggesting that the masons will be challenging to pick out?

Unvote
Vote YogurtBandit

[/b]

[Simenon]

Simenon: Why are always voting for the same person I am voting?

Any reason why I shouldn't trust your vote record?

[Simenon]

And, let me turn it around: In a game where the only powerroles are masons (who know that they’re the only powerrole), are you suggesting that the masons *won’t* be challenging to pick out?

In my mind, unless the masons were deliberately dodging the connection, yes. Frankly, I don't think many of these players have enough experience around masons to be able to hide such a connection easily.

[Simenon]

Unvote
Vote SirT

[Simenon]

Per- obviously you misunderstand. Let me rephrase that. Any particular reason why I shouldn't vote who SirT votes?

[Simenon]

To show you (and everyone else including Simeon) that I find people agreeing with me so early in the game as suspicious.

I'm going to intercept this.

Who says I'm agreeing with you when I vote who you vote?

[Simenon]

Why is that necessarily the case?

[Simenon]

Unvote
Vote Crub

[Simenon]

Crub should die.

[Simenon]

[Simenon]

Lemming can be next.

[Simenon]

Lemming, a simple question: Do you think that taking into account my previous statements to SirTornado, and the fact that all of my bandwagoning has been done in the same method and same number of votes, my bandwagoning is just a scummy coincidence?

[Simenon]

No, I'm asking whether there may be other reasons for someone to bandwagon methodically.

I don't think methodical bandwagoning is scummy, so no, I'm not suggesting that.

[Simenon]

He wants to kill lemming

Yup. But only after we kill Crub.

[Simenon]

Answer the question, please.

[Simenon]

Also, post 182 puts so many words in my mouth it makes me wonder why we even bother listening to lemming.

But go on.

[Simenon]

Hi lemming!

I see you there!

This is the third time I have asked you to answer my question. I know this might be overload (lord knows if you would be able to do two at a time), but why do you insist on ignoring it?

[Simenon]

Post 182 is not an answer to this:

Do you think that taking into account my previous statements to SirTornado, and the fact that all of my bandwagoning has been done in the same method and same number of votes, my bandwagoning is just a scummy coincidence?

Maybe if you actually put some effort into what you write you wouldn't have to ask three times maybe

He got me!

[Simenon]

An answer to my question will tell me from what angle I should approach defending myself. I'm trying to understand where you are coming from better before I commit to a defense.

I don't think my question is cryptic either.

[Simenon]

You see what you're trying to do is guide me into believing something. Whatever answer I give, allows you to properly respond to the situation. I'm not going to give you that chance. That's not how I roll yo.

oh well. :[

I see your game, and it's like you believe you're smarter than everyone else and need to lead us to find out "inner selves" through questions.

Read the question. Now read your "case". I wouldn't ask this question if I didn't feel it was necessary.
If you read my posts, I'm obviously acting the exact same way (every two votes gets a bandwagon vote from me). I'm asking you if that is a coincidence or not. If you aren't going to answer that, then I think it's of no use to me to answer your case.

I don't play that game. I'm going to keep my vote on you until you answer the question, instead of trying to figure out what answer will satisfy me and say that.

Have fun.

[Simenon]

Why would you systematically bandwagon third vote everyone, assuming you're motivated about lynching scum?

Open games are for experiments. Bandwagoning = information. I hate it when players think bandwagoning is a bad thing. The town plays well when there is an organized bandwagon on someone.

Besides, I felt it could draw opportunistic scum.

My vote is sticking on Crub anyway.

[Simenon]

Shanba, voting sammich is :badvoting:. Vote Crub or lemming please.

[Simenon]

Lynching you would be pretty useful.

[Simenon]

So we're killing crub today?

[Simenon]

I am slacking in my games, sorry. I will try getting to this by tomorrow.

[Simenon]

:badvoting:

We should be voting crub.

[Simenon]

1. Actually, what he is doing, is make himself look like opportunistic scum, 2. and then you get to the "too scummy to be scum" argument as pointed out by Sir T one page earlier. If you go on with this point, a lot of WIFOM is going to get involved.

Where in the text can you back up the first argument and explain the logical connection the second. Or shut up. Thanks.

To be honest I'm a bit disappointed with the players who have analyzed me. This may sound arrogant

now

, but they're just not "getting" it.

[Simenon]

woop woop

[Simenon]

Vote Sammich

gogo go

[Simenon]

what.

[Simenon]

I have been neglecting this game and for that I apologize. I'll get to Sammich's monster post later. For now:

Well, during D1 you were jumping on bandwagons with no reason (as in "reason to suspect/lynch someone"), and now it seems as though you want to start bandwagons zith no such reason. I'm asking whether that is indeed the case, and if this is another well-considered strategy of yours.

I didn't actually plan to lead a bandwagon, because I couldn't have. Otherwise, yes, I'm changing my playstyle because this one doesn't seem to be working, or rather, the town doesn't want me to use it.

[Simenon]

Simenon: Are you happy now? Crub's dead, are you ready to try and kill Lemming?What are you going to do now that your Crublynch campaign backfired?

All of your questions say the same thing and try to accomplish the same purpose: to reinforce the fact that I was wrong.

However, I will answer them. Yes, I am happy that Crub is dead, unhappy that he turned out scum, but I'm rather convinced he would have been of no use anyway. No, I don't feel like lynching lemming, because I don't feel quite as badly about his as I did. The crublynch was bad I guess, but the only thing I can do now is focus my energy on lynching a scum.

Also, you said Lemming can be next. Are you still happy with that decision? Are we looking at another mislynch? I still find Lemming's hammer strange and somewhat scummy but if you're going to just go after the lynch like you did Crub then drop it right now.

More reinforcement. I am not happy with my decision, but rather content with it. Or rather, with the information that I had, I don't think I made a terrible vote. Your second question is silly for me to answer. And I don't respond to threats.

[Simenon]

I'll try to get back to this, I'm being incredibly lazy.

[Simenon]

Wow, I can't believe I've wasted that much time here. It's shocking.

[Simenon]

In Simenon's TooMuchScum, ALSleet lurked before eventually asking for a replacement.

Unvote
Vote ALSleet

[Simenon]

Consistently votes without any justification.

I demand an explanation for why this makes me scum.

I think he may be trying to suggest he's a Mason (the third Mason, no less), but I don't think he is.

Huh, interesting. Why as scum would I try to claim that all the wagons I've jumped on have had two other mason buddies on them?

That simply isn't logical. Think before you type.

He also may be suggeting that he's methodically bandwagoning to apply pressure systematically, but if that's the case, why does he stay there and lynch, rather than pulling out when it becomes apparent no information is forthcoming?

I haven't been "suggesting" anything. Read my posts. I've laid out everything I want you to see.

He really doesn't provide any reason for me to think he's anything but scum.

You haven't really provided any reason other than I have deliberately dodged not giving a reason for my votes, which you haven't provided a reason for backing that up in the first place.

I also find it incredibly interesting that the first on your list is the person who is voting you.

[Simenon]

Also, you claim not to be a mason, so you have no grounds to assume that I'm not.

This:

Reluctance to bandwagon is admirable

is laughable.

Sometimes less is more as far as analysis goes.

[Simenon]

Oh, I'm sorry, I'm not first on your suspicion list. That would instead be CO, who is also voting you.

Everyone please pressure Phate.

[Simenon]

To me it looks like you're trying to subtly twist what I'm saying. Perhaps it's just an overreaction to what you perceive as an accusation without due evidence, but it's worth a thought.

Sorry, but I don't put in the work if you don't. In fact I find it very necessary that you justify that in order to see where you come from.

[Simenon]

To clarify: I want you to justify how me not giving reasons with my votes makes me scum.

Both voting for a lurker with no reason other than that he's a lurker (and both within a page of each other).

Note: I didn't vote ALsleet just for lurking, but rather because ALSleet tends to flake as scum. If you read the post I just quoted, you'll see that I site a valid metagame (I know because I was there) on ALSleet, which brought significant weight to my "lurker vote".

[Simenon]

When a townie votes, it is because they think the person they're voting for is scum (usually; this is a generalisation, but you catch my drift). They have a reason for doing so. When scum vote, it is because they want a townie to be lynched (again, a generalisation, but again, you catch my drift). They need no other reason to desire this, so unless they invent reasons or agree with the reasons of those before them, they vote without justification. Thus, in my opinion, voting without justification (especially when repeated, and leading to a mislynch) is a scumtell, because townies will always have a reason, whether flawed or not, (the reason they think the person they're voting for is scum), but scum don't need a reason to want a townie to be lynched.

Let me start at the first conclusion: that voting without reasoning is a scumtell. By far, the scum I've seen (and indeed my play in general) vote with giving a reason to try to appear town, and town vote without reasoning (for reasons I can discuss later). I can point out many, many players who vote without reasoning, and indeed I can name many players who always vote without reasoning. They obviously can be both town and scum. Therefore my experience has led me to conclude that this is not a scumtell but is a tell for playstyle. In fact, you can tell a scum by their demanding to give reasoning- something that makes them try to appear town (not suggesting I think you are scum because of this). I can back this up by naming the players and linking their past games, but come on. Search for a game three years ago and you'll find most players simply voted for no reasoning, or if they did state it, used bandwagoning to justify it.

Your second conclusion I need further information about you. Do you recognize any positive arguments for voting without reasoning?

Seeing as you have done what I asked, I'm going to try replying myself.

[Simenon]

Why wouldn't you? If I, as scum, was able to convince the town that I was a Mason, and thus anyone who defended me (my mafia buddies) probably was too, I would be ecstatic. Are you going to grace us with your REASON why it isn't logical?

Because I would be claiming two mason buddies that aren't actually mason buddies. Convincing the town to an extent possibly, but the town can just look back at my voting record and lynch me instantly.

Maybe you always play this way, but to me it looks like you're deliberately withholding information.

I'm trying to make people think for themselves, which is strangely something my hands-off playstyle has evolved to do.

I'll answer you: the nature of the question suggests that it is not. So no, for the purposes of this little game, we'll say that I don't think it's a coincidence.

Alright, then I'll state it for you: yes, it was with purpose and no it was not a coincidence. (I believed I had admitted as much so yeh).

Now try reading what I just said in context of lemming's interrogation. Can you see why I made that statement?

Your turn: Why are you voting the people for whom you're voting?

I'm voting you for reasons already stated. I voted the people I voted originally because they had votes on them and I didn't think they were not town (with the exception of one very special vote).

If you look at what I've said, it's not that hard to figure out. I realize my posts are very cryptic this game, and I apologize. But I'm just a little too lazy to figure them out.

You're right. That + the way Crub was treated for behaving in a similar fashion strike me as very odd.

Crub had a very different tendency to omgus all over the place and overreact, to the point where it looked like he just gave up.

What do you mean by "flake"? Does AlSleet "flake" as town?

To "flake" is to need or ask for replacement. It implies (although it is not always the case) being active in other threads and therefore it making you seem like an ass.
AlSleet doesn't flake as town to my knowledge. I only know his scum play. Ask someone else.

Why are you "methodically bandwagoning," i.e. voting for people without revealing your reasoning?

For reactions, to speed up the pace of this generally slow game, to shorten the length of day one (scattered one wagons tend to make games longer by losing their focus), so that someone could ask this very question, and finally a super sekrit recon that I'll state after the game. I can assure you thought it's not rolerelated. All of those answers about equally.

Eager to see your response.

Unvote
Vote Sammich

And rather willing to vote someone who just cracked under your analysis.

[Simenon]

Phate how new are you to mafia?

[Simenon]

I would not be unhappy with a lemming lynch.

[Simenon]

Actually, going over my posts, let me be a bit clearly as to where I stand without having to explain myself. I will do so if you ask me to but I really don't have the time to make analysis on twelve players.

All sections are from most town to least town
Town
Shanba
Phate (recently I've come to believe he's town)
Per
Jex

Neutral
ChaosOmega
Samruc

Scum
Lemming
Sammich

It should be noted that I don't think Lemming-Sammich is a likely scum pair. Lemming-Samruc is an interesting consideration.

[Simenon]

It's honestly because I can't get a read on him. The "I'm going to put Sammich back where he belongs" alarmed me.

[Simenon]

Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more!

[Simenon]

So I know I'm town. I also know one other person right now is town.

Which leaves it out of 4.

I'm leaning Samruc or Per to be the final townie. There is no way in my mind given the interactions with Sammich and Lemming that Lemming should be town.

I will probably be voting him.

[Simenon]

No, it leaves it out of five. Silly me.

That means two confirmed. A combination of Samruc/Per/Phate sounds pretty good to me.

Lemming still should die.

[Simenon]

Oh, I agree with the other mason not claiming right now.

And if you would please refrain from "although sim might be scum" comments unless you are counterclaiming mason, and for my purposes I must assume that isn't going to happen, so don't.

[Simenon]

Mod Edit: Vote Count

No current votes. 4 to lynch.

It's stupid because:

1. It makes you look like a non-mason, which is a bad thing because it lowers the chances for the other mason to go free
2. There's no reason to doubt my claim unless you are a mason and I'm not in your mason group.

Unless you can provide a reason that makes sense, no you should not be questioning my claim out loud.

[Simenon]

The only thing you've claimed is town

Read my first post.

[Simenon]

I know that.

But how does that refute post 400?

[Simenon]

and there always is the possibility that you're scum distracting us so you can kill us all tonight.

A mason wouldn't say this. Therefore, it opens the possibility that you are a townie and not a mason.

If everybody but the mason said this, then we'd be screwed to an extent.

See my point?

[Simenon]

That's silly. Comments like "I keep bouncing back and forth between 'oh, awesome, he wants to help me' and 'he's scum lulling me into a false sense of security" would not be necessary if you were a mason. And I sincerely hope you would be smart enough to counter claim in this position (if I wasn't a mason of course).

[Simenon]

WIFOM comments like "huh, i wonder if you are scum" would not be necessary either.

[Simenon]

*waves hi*

Nobody else has posted yet, and you are willing to make a lylo vote?

[Simenon]

Lemming has voted Sammich since september 23rd. The only time he has shifted his vote was to "end the long ass" day one (voting crub). In fact, excluding random votes, he has only voted protown players (including myself here). His interactions with Sammich were rather bitter in nature.

Samruc has also consistently voted Sammich. This comment:

Phate, if you really want that discussion with Lemming now, I'll give it a few days, but I'm gonna put Sammich back where he belongs if we start getting nowhere.

continues to spook me. I also think his jump off of Sammich, while perhaps reasonable, perhaps is indicative of a scum.

I simply cannot read Shanba. His posts are incredibly elusive, his voting record hard to comprehend. I want him to clarify who he suspects right now.

Chaos is hard to read. He has only posted nine times in 47 days. His bolded suspicion indicators include SirT, Crub, and Phate. At first his suspicions seem incohesive, but then you see it's because he barely posts. I'm not sure where to place him right now.

Per has posted thirteen times in the last 62 days. He votes and foses lemming, sir t, crub and... that's all for the next 27 days.

Per, Samruc, and Lemming are the players I have down as scum. The fact that Samruc is suddenly inclined to lynching Lemming and Lemming not expressing suspicion on anybody is a good indicator that we need to lynch one of them today.

[Simenon]

Here are the records in full from the Mafia Distillery. I'll interpret what they mean later.

Also note Jex voted Lemming last.

per votes jex in post 14
per unvotes in post 105
per votes lemming fos sir t in post 105
per suspects sir t in post 105
per unvotes in post 262
per votes crub in post 263

lemming1607 votes samruc in post 7
lemming1607 unvotes in post 44
lemming1607 votes shanba in post 44
lemming1607 unvotes in post 53
lemming1607 votes crub in post 77
lemming1607 unvotes in post 89
lemming1607 votes yogurtbandit in post 96
lemming1607 unvotes in post 143
lemming1607 votes simenon in post 164
lemming1607 unvotes in post 230
lemming1607 votes sammich in post 230
lemming1607 unvotes in post 265
lemming1607 votes crub in post 265
lemming1607 suspects sammich in post 290
lemming1607 votes sammich in post 354

shanba votes polter in post 10
shanba unvotes in post 31
shanba votes emptyger in post 31
shanba unvotes in post 37
shanba votes dairy milk product guy in post 37
shanba unvotes in post 65
shanba votes sirt in post 65
shanba unvotes in post 67
shanba votes yb in post 67
shanba unvotes in post 98
shanba unvotes in post 98
shanba votes lemming in post 98
shanba unvotes in post 101
shanba votes srt in post 101
shanba unvotes in post 217
shanba votes sammich in post 217
shanba unvotes in post 246
shanba votes alsleet in post 246
shanba unvotes in post 251
shanba votes sammich in post 251
shanba unvotes in post 256
shanba votes crub in post 256
shanba votes sammich in post 289

chaosomega unvotes in post 139
chaosomega votes crub in post 139
chaosomega suspects sir tornado in post 139
chaosomega unvotes in post 207
chaosomega votes samruc in post 207
chaosomega unvotes in post 254
chaosomega votes crub in post 254
chaosomega votes alsleet in post 304
chaosomega suspects phate in post 410

phate votes sammich in post 383
phate votes chaosomega in post 414
phate unvotes in post 416

samruc votes emptyger in post 8
samruc unvotes in post 12
samruc votes simenon in post 12
samruc suspects lemming1607 in post 19
samruc suspects shanba in post 54
samruc unvotes in post 88
samruc votes yogurtbandit in post 88
samruc unvotes in post 136
samruc suspects crub in post 136
samruc votes sammich in post 210
samruc votes sammich in post 285
samruc unvotes in post 358
samruc suspects lemming in post 418
phate suspects chaosomega in post 416

simenon votes yogurtbandit in post 6
simenon unvotes in post 11
simenon votes samruc in post 11
simenon unvotes in post 42
simenon votes yogurt in post 42
simenon unvotes in post 76
simenon votes count in post 76
simenon votes sanba in post 76
simenon unvotes in post 84
simenon votes yogurtbandit in post 84
simenon unvotes in post 104
simenon votes sirt in post 104
simenon unvotes in post 146
simenon votes crub in post 146
simenon votes sammich in post 269
simenon unvotes in post 321
simenon votes alsleet in post 321
simenon unvotes in post 339
simenon votes sammich in post 339

[Simenon]

A change of thought. I know think Phate is the likely townie.

[Simenon]

Or should I take your silence as agreement that you're doing your damnedest to twist my words?

Why would a protown person say this.

[Simenon]

I'd like an answer, Sim - why WOULDN'T a protown player say this?

Using it as an argument makes no sense.

[Simenon]

I used it more as a reference.

But I do hope to get an analysis in by tomorrow and I hope other players here share that goal.

[Simenon]

Votes on townies (discounting randoms):
Per: 1/2
Lemming: 4/7
Shanba: 6/11
Phate: 1/2
CO: 1/2
Samruc: 2/3

Suviving Players Voted:
Lemming (Per; Post 105, Shanba; Post 98)
Shanba (Lemming; Post 44, Simenon; Post 76)
Samruc (CO; post 207)
Phate (Never)
ChoasOmega (Phate; Post 410)
Per (Never)
Simenon (Lemming; Post 164)

Just a way of condensing the information further.

I would like everyone to name their top suspect, using random.org for this order:

Per
Shanba
ChaosOmega (r. EmpTyger)
Phate (r. AlSleet (r. YogurtBandit))
Simenon
Lemming1607
Samruc

[Simenon]

Hey shanba.

Why are you so awesome?

Although you might want to take into account Per's inactivity as a reason for all of those funky vote counts.

[Simenon]

Hey shanba.

Remember all that time you spent writing up that massive analysis for why I must be scum in blue jam when I was the only person alive with a protown win condition?

This sounds vaguely reminiscent.

[Simenon]

Mod Edit: Vote Count

ChaosOmega[1](Shanba)


Not Voting[6](Simenon, Phate, Samruc, Lemming1607, ChaosOmega, Per)

That said, I think you made the right decision, but we also could have gotten a scum lynch and naturally concluded that CO had to be the scum.

[Simenon]

hoo boy

[Simenon]

Hi guys. Before I begin, can anyone point me to that vote analyser program that was in mafia discussion a while back? Could be v. useful in this situation. Am currently halfway thru re-read.

TL;DR

we lynch you.

[Simenon]

Of course I was teasing, but I'm basically going to skip what you have to say until it matters- your analysis will not sway my opinion.

Also, phate, you pretty much depleted any possible information we could have from these last few posts all for the sake of being safe when it really wasn't necessary (considering I'm town and Shanba immediately backed down).

Shanba: I just think analysis like the one you made should be mostly kept to yourself- it could lead to scum jumping on to it. Mostly I just wanted to rub blue jam in. :shrug:

[Simenon]

By unvoting

By unvoting we slowed this game down for two weeks, while there really was no reason to (shanba unvoted- and you shouldn't have voted until you were reasonably sure that CO was scum).

[Simenon]

FOR NEATNESS HE DESERVED A NOD.

DID SWEENEY TODD.

THE DEMON BARBER OF FLEET STREET.

[Simenon]

I've got this odd feeling that Shanba/Phate just won.

Phate: you are not hammering.

[Simenon]

Oh, you're right. Thought I was. I don't understand - do you think Shanba and I are a scumpair?

Not sure, but this last page gives me the willies.


I ought to be considered a babbling old man right now since nothing I do can really change the CO lynch.

[Simenon]

I've got this odd feeling that Shanba/Phate just won.

Phate: you are not hammering.

How did they win, if it's not yet a lynch?

Well, I mean in the sense that their scumbuddy is just waiting around to hammer off CO and CO is conveniently missing.

[Simenon]

I don't really buy that Phate could be scum if CO is scum.

Keep in mind that I know more than anyone else; I'm saying these things so that I can be later be interpreted in context, therefore I do not need to be convinced.

[Simenon]

mod- prod Per

[Simenon]

WHY WOULD YOU HAMMER WITHOUT EVERYONE POSTING FIRST.

Tomorrow you will lynch Samruc and TheFonz. Whichever first I really don't care. Any other lynch would be an atrocity.

[Simenon]

Because you just cut off any other discussion and blocked off Per, who has not posted since October, from posting alltogether. If you are town, I will throttle you.

[Simenon]

Any other lynch would be not only an atrocity but a gameloss, wouldn't it?

:hifive:

[Simenon]

Bah.

Go scum.

Hold on.

It was you? o_0

[Simenon]

That was sarcastic.

[Simenon]

weird.

Also, shanba, you didn't quite make the nomination, sorry. ):

[Simenon]

btw Shanba and Simenon obvmason day 1 you guys sucksor

you're probably bitter because you were terrible.