Newbie 871 - Game Over Town Win
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boberz Mafia Scum
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Hi
No lynch seems very silly, particularly now because we want to gather information from a chat on day 1.
I am not a big fan of random vote, because I do not gain information from it, but it tends to happen and allowing it to occur for a bit I do not mind.
Reasoned vote I like, but I don't have much of a reason yet.
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I would like to ask how much mafia (or close alternative) experience everyone has, as it is a newbie game this is particularly relevant. I have played a lot of face to face mafia but never an online game, I am yet to see how I will adapt.-
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boberz Mafia Scum
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DarthRandal1138 wrote: A random vote is almost inevitable D1, barring suspicious activity from someone, but should be avoided in following days, as more and more information accrues.
I do not understand what you are getting at here? I understand there is usually a random voting stage, where some people choose to throw around apparently random votes, but I would not expect this to last the whole day.
Am I right in saying that you encourage random voting throughout the day, unless a person does something particularly suspicious? In which case I think you are wrong.-
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boberz Mafia Scum
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"NEVER", are you sure, or do you just mean never on Day 1? It can be mathmatically advisable to get the information of another night, and lower the probability of a mislynch towards the end. I agree in Day 1 it is stupid, and most of the time it is stupid.ksen wrote:Town should never NOT lynch. It is our only way to kill scum and on Day 1 it gets the information ball rolling.-
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boberz Mafia Scum
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My vote is not random and it is for incognito
vote: incognito
It is based on very very little at the moment, but I will explain.
Incognitosets a trap to get a wagon onether, although he makes this so obvious it is almost a joke, it certainly would not hook scum, and if it did then it would only be at L-1 with no scum to hammer which they would not want to do anyway, essentially I am saying this whole thing was a pointless sentence. He also FoS:Patrick"just because" which again seems pointless. I asked myself why and nearly dismissed it as random voting particularly since he has played with bothetherandpatrickbefore (and according to your wiki enjoyed playing with them).
The reason I did not put it completely down to random voting (which it could well) be was threefold.
1/ I could not see why you mention lurking at all. Lurking is not a scum tell, active lurking might be but we are much too early to discuss this. It takes conversation to somewhere i deem pointless, pointless to me means it is not adding any value, which means it is creating white noise and hindering town.
2/ You try to test ksen and whoever else wants to answers logic/knowledge/ability to read the wiki, I cannot really work out why. To me town would want to help a person who has not understood by explaining said situation, not try and evaluate their effectiveness, possibly exposing them to scum manipulation later. Not that I believe ksen is a bad player, but that is another issue.
3/ You lick my rear end slightly with your last comment, which I read as trying to get an eager newb (which I clearly am) onside, on two other occasions you agree with me but admittedly add value on those, but not much.
I am also keen to hear from ksen again on the no lynch issue.-
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boberz Mafia Scum
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What about if there were 4 town and 2 scum, ksen. A No-lynch would mean another NK could definately happen without ending the game. This would then enable any PR to have another night to gain info, it would also improve towns probabilities of correctly lynching the next day, in that day some kind of claim would probably occur a good time to get reads (and if PR claim can be verified gives the only solid info the town will ever get).-
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boberz Mafia Scum
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Ether why is lurking a scum tell? Active lurking is a scum tell no doubt, but lurking as a generic term I don't agree. Particularly in a newbie game where newbs may just not contribute much not wanting to make mistakes and such.
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I realise I am posting a lot and many of them do not seem to be scumhunting so I now aim to rectify that slightly.
Firstly Patrick my number two: When i questioned ksen i did it in a way that i tried my best to explain very briefly why i thought it might be a good idea to no lynch at some point, I felt incognito did not contribute advice as town should have done, like you did (after my post), just told him he was wrong. He also seemed to be trying to get a feel for how logical/adept at using the wiki ksen (and whoever else answered) is, not necessarily a scumtell but adds weight to whichever read one gets, which for me is more scum than town. By questioning ksen I thought that incognito might be trying to see whether ksen was not following the logic well and could be feeling out a possible manipulation later.
Also Patrick I notice you did not pick me up on claiming that lurking is not a scum tell (which I believe it is not) does this mean you agree with me?
Reading this on preview it sounds as if I am accusing you Patrick, this is not the case.
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Ether why would the pre game need to take a long time if incognito and patrick were mafia? If they know each other and are both fairly adept they could both adapt to a newbie game without a watertight plan this early. Or have i musunderstood their usual tactics, or the fundamentals of night 0 play.
Surely the pregame would take longer if a more experienced player wanted to do a bit of coaching before any posts so that a change in an inexperienced players posts would not happen.-
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boberz Mafia Scum
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There are two mafia aligned players, it is in the rules at the top of the thread. I am slightly worried you have not read these, and it makes me wonder how much you have read of anything. Scum would take notice of posts, but I am wandering into WIFOM.
Based purely on the probabilities there are definately situations where it is worth it, so unless your willing to trust the reads of people you have reads on over mathmatics then I do not really think there is an argument. Town do not lose a lynch, they just postpone the lynch until the probabilities are better and the information is greater, I repeat they do not lose a lynch.
Having said that I do not think this is a scum mistake you have made, but the fact there are two obvious mistakes makes me wonder, but as I said this is WIFOM I should not be thinking about it.-
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boberz Mafia Scum
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There is always 2 scum in newbie games, I do not mind you not knowing, but it is in the first posts so you should have read it. I am not convinvced we are talking cross purposes.ksen wrote:
I haven't been talking about this specific game in the Lynch/No-Lynch discussion. Yes, the GM has told us there are 2 scum in this game. Is that the normal procedure in this forum?boberz wrote:There are two mafia aligned players, it is in the rules at the top of the thread. I am slightly worried you have not read these, and it makes me wonder how much you have read of anything. Scum would take notice of posts, but I am wandering into WIFOM.
So you don't need to worry about my reading skills. We have obviously been talking past one another.
Your two errors: claiming no-lynch is never right despite players (not just me) trying to explain why you are wrong, and not reading the original posts properly creating doubt about your concentration.
However your mistakes are not scum ones. I am going to shut up for a bit. I would like to hear back from DarthRandall1138 (who I may call Darth from now on) as well as Yarmond and herd456 (who may become herd).-
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boberz Mafia Scum
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I have some more thoughts. I am not at all happy with ksen's responses and I do not think his presentation of a misunderstanding between us is accurate. But I do not want to push this further because I fear I may begiin to read scum into it when it is not that tell at all.
I notice both Patrick and Ether do not seem interested in my vote. I like this because not all three of you can be scum, so atleast one of you is trying to help me, I respect that.
Incognito, I was trying to explain in the first part of my accusation that your trap seemed extremely obvious, and more like a trap for newbie town to start believing you more (that would make twice I felt you had tried to set up a later possibility for undue influence)
herd: I am worried about your random vote, and the fact you feel the need to do it now. if you had waded in before any of us said anything that would be fair enough, but there has been proper conversation.
My vote for incognito stands but I am also wary of Ether and Patrick. There are slight reasons, but it is more a worry that two of the three of you only have to convince the other and it becomes a large force. Of course this is no evidence but something that makes me very wary.-
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boberz Mafia Scum
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Ether as I said, that was not my reason for suspicion, but just a fact that made me amplify anything I get off you three, does that make sense? Because I know you can be dangerous, any slight scum read I get is important, equally if I get a town read on two (or three) of the three of you then I would have to put more weight on that as well. I do not use it as evidence of scumness in itself. The evidence I have is even more sketchy than my stuff on incognito, so there is not point me voicing it really.
My case on incognito is weak, but it is the best one I can muster at the moment, if he was at L-1 or maybe even L-2 I would unvote, dont get the impression I am chasing for his lynch or anything.
Ksen I do not understand what you are chatting about now, you seem to be digging a hole (but not necessarily a scummy one). I think you either do not understand the points some of us have made about the no lynch or are trying to cover up for a previous misunderstanding, it is either a newb town or a clever (pretending to be newb town) scummy (even then only slight) play. I have you at neutral at the moment, I urge you to talk about something other than this discussion. What is your view on Annachie for example?
I agree with Patrick that we should leave the how long did scum take debate, for two reasons. We do not know how long they took although we know it was not that long, we do not really know who they are if we did know (only that if it took a long time experience was probably involved, which it didnt so we cant make this read) I fear this is a red herring discussion, that I realise I have just entered into.
Darth and Annachie I am keen to hear not a direct meta of each other, but perhaps an overview of how you will try to read each other later, or indeed already.
herd, this is more here for my benefit so I do not forget, but I want to know why you random voted, or was there a secret reason in the vote. I accept you have not had time to answer it when I asked earlier this is not me being impatient, just forward thinking. I understand Patrick's view here, but any vote is 1/5 of a lynch so I do not like random votes like that, so I want herd's justification.
I have just re read the recent posts again and I realise that perhaps I am too fearfull of getting misdirected by Ether Patrick and Incog. It is just if I believe two of their reads on the other then they could be scum and the thought will always be in my mind, if I believe the one over the other two (even more idiotic) he could be the scum. If I all three agree then a misread by one undermines brings me back to one of the first two situations (considering all three just read me town i dont know why i said that, but the logic remains). I am hoping me making general musings about how we should be carefull, will make it go away. Just like general musings about ending random voting tend to end it.
I am interested to hear from Yarmond, just because I havent yet.-
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boberz Mafia Scum
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Incidentally, I didnt get a word of this, so I typed tricky half of pathetric into google and found the game you are chatting about. It does not seem particularly relevant to me. Can you explain what you meant, or is it just a private joke/irrelevant thing.Incognito wrote: I should check on the 'tricky half of Pathetric, though.-
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boberz Mafia Scum
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I can accept that as a reason, but I hate it being done.herd456 wrote:I only made the random vote because I like to--it's not like I put him at L-2, and the game was still pretty new. Also, like Patrick said, it's not like I made a post with a random vote and no more.
The reason I keep mentioning it is so that I am aware of it and dont fool for it. Therefore it is actually removed as an excuse if that makes sense. ie if iever blame that then you can say, 'you were well aware of it'.herd456 wrote: My only other read at the moment is a slightly protown one on boberz. He seems like he's genuinely trying to help, and also pointed out how he's perhaps being misguided by the IC and SEs--which could, in theory, have been useful to him down the line as an excuse? I don't know, he just strikes me as pro-town.
Do I insinuate from "trying to help" that I am actually hindering. Why? bad reads, too many posts, crap posts, all of the above.
Sorry for two posts in a row.-
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boberz Mafia Scum
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boberz Mafia Scum
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I have been clocking in all day to see the response to this, I think there has been enough time for something to happen now so I am not happy. As I say I had a very slight town read on ksen based on the no lynch argument, just because I didnt think scum would push an argument so hard when they were wrong.
The fact that ksen has not said much helpfull but tried to look like a regular poster I don't like but I do not think scum immediately, an experienced player I would think scum.
I do not want to put my vote on him I still think slight town. Have I missed any reasons for your vote or is this a bit of a feeler vote as well.-
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boberz Mafia Scum
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The only reason I waited was because I thought you were trying to get a reaction out of ksen and herd (i hadnt considered yarmond if i am honest) I had been interested to ask you why since you had done it. (although a post or two yesterday made me expect some kind of vote i couldnt work out where though)
What is different from me not posting a response, to you not offering explanation (although i understand why you might not want to do this).
I am getting a more town read off you however.
Who writes these wiki's?-
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boberz Mafia Scum
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I did that unexplained voting thing (as you described it), but that was because i got a read from it (or thought i did). Why might it be scummy? honest question here.
I also used the word WIFOM but it was against my own argument, that I then didnt make (reading it back i should havee just deleted that point).
I will take the advice.
I wont take that tell from your wiki that says if you are active and try to get discussion going then you are town. I will do some work for myself if people have any evidence on you.
I am struggling to get a grip on anything here.
Incognito In the words of Terry Tibbs: Talk to Me. What do you make of ksen/herd?-
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boberz Mafia Scum
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I got that it was satiric, but there must be some basis as to why some think it is scummy does that make sense. If there was no logic (be it false or not) it wouldnt fool anyone, or are you suggesting it would.
I will read you the hard way if pressure comes/I worry that pressure hasnt come when I thought it should. I feel a bit bored just chatting to you ether, but no one else seems to contribute as regularly when I am on.
I still dont really agree on lurking. I think white noise (ie not usefull posts, deliberately so) is much worse than lurking, in newbie games. I do not like the active lurking you rightly point out, I have seen herd twice since your post as well (thanks for saying how to do that).
Do you want to keepp trying to prop up discussion or do you hope that discussions away from ones you instigate will develop at some point. If so can we expect you to post slightly less when this happens.-
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boberz Mafia Scum
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Darth, Incog has already asked me about the hooking scum thing, and why i found it scummy. Was it not sufficient?
I don't think buddying is what I called it it is not what I think it is. More confidence building, again (by Patrick I think) I have been asked about this already. Was my answer not sufficient?
The point on power roles has already been said.
In fact every point you make has already been made. The only new thing you seem to add is an explanation of you early misunderstanding (which I can accept) and an unsubstatiated neutral suspicion on Patrick.
I do not like that post Darth for such a big one it seems to add very little.-
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boberz Mafia Scum
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boberz Mafia Scum
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In response to Patrick's first post since my last one. post 107 (how do you do links to posts like you lot do?)
It was I who first mentioned herd's random vote. I merely questioned it, I did not call it scummy. I was a little inquisitive because it came after there was already content, and some proper votes and I wanted to check it was random and why it occured. I was happy with the explanation although I did not like it.
It was (as you point out) Annachie who then used it as part of an accusation. Having said this I cannot find much more on Annachie.
I am more worried about what I considered a fairly contentless post in herd's long post because it was built up so much. I accept he was pushed into saying anything and hence maybe rehashes were all he could muster. But I am not convinced. I would like to hear what herd has to say on this then I may switch and take him to what I think (will check before vote) will be L-2?-
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boberz Mafia Scum
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I am more encouraged by your last post herd, but you are not out of my sights yet.
I do not like the fact you did not tell us your reasons for voting. There are cases when this is advisable but they are unusual, and ether has already done it once. Ether may I now ask for clarification on that vote in full, unless I have missed it.
I want to know what you are thinking basically herd, I am not convinced I have this properly.
Annachie, I believe Patrick said it is a neutral tell but it used to be a town one. As for the rule I do not really know why small text is banned, you can always make it bigger in notepad; but as it is against he rules it should be obeyed, disobeying of that kind of rule is not a scum tell I dont think.-
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boberz Mafia Scum
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How on earth would a doctor know whether there is a cop, let alone who it is. Or have i missed some of this conversation, is that about a hypo situation later.Annachie wrote:
Well, just off of the top of my head it's the perfect opertunity for a doctor to point the finger at someone and say "I think that person is a cop".Ether wrote:
How would this possibly be a good idea?Post 93, Annachie wrote:power role)-
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boberz Mafia Scum
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boberz Mafia Scum
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boberz Mafia Scum
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boberz Mafia Scum
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I hope that is not true, it sounded truthfull to me and I will asume it is.
I do not like your theory on Yarmond. He is neutral to us all, surely he must be it would appear he is not going to contribute so therefore he will be replaced and we will have to hope that the replacement is more active. We can only have a dead neutral read till then.
We should vote off the most scummy, ie the person we think is most likely to be scum. Do you truly have a slightly town read off everyone other than Yarmond? if not then i think you should vote for that person. This would appear to be another theory you and I disagree on, but again I think I am on the side of conventional wisdom.
Can I ask Patrick etherandincog: is bad theory scummy? I do not really think it is but there might be logic i havent heard.
Either wayunvote vote: ksen(btw this is L-2 I believe, correct me if I am wrong)
He moved from chatting about no lynching, in an unconvincing manner; to not really answering who he thought was scum; to then linking endless games in response to requests; to finally raising concern over annachie's VLA I think fairly unfoundedly. He does all this without doing any scum hunting.-
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boberz Mafia Scum
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I agree with what incog says on the policy vote. I am essentially arguing that you could not have had anything other than a neutral read on Yarmond at the moment. So unless you have a neutral/town read on everyone else your vote is better placed somewhere else.ksen wrote:
Allowing people to fly under the radar is a good way to help town lose. You may not like my reason for keeping my vote on Yarmond due to his inactivity but I think it is good strategy because in my experience scum try to lay as low as possible and all too often town lets them.boberz wrote:I hope that is not true, it sounded truthfull to me and I will asume it is.
I do not like your theory on Yarmond. He is neutral to us all, surely he must be it would appear he is not going to contribute so therefore he will be replaced and we will have to hope that the replacement is more active. We can only have a dead neutral read till then.
And that's what I'm doing with my vote on Yarmond.We should vote off the most scummy, ie the person we think is most likely to be scum.
I did not miss that, it was a hypothetical question i knew to be untrue, to try and make you see the logic behind what i was saying. I cannot work out if you have yet. My point is if you have a scummy feel about annachie then you should have voted for him, I was trying to show that your vote on Yarmond was unfounded.ksen wrote:
No, and I said as much in the post you responded to. I said I also have a slightly scum feel about Annachie. Why would you ignore that and act as if I hadn't said it?Do you truly have a slightly town read off everyone other than Yarmond?
Now I'm getting a scummy-vibe from you because you seem to consistently miss things I say.
Because I am. I consider your vote unfounded and ill-thought through.ksen wrote:
Why does it look like you are trying to get me to change my vote from Yarmond?if not then i think you should vote for that person.
If you are suggesting I am defending a scum partner then I would be a crap player as scum. It would be idiotic for me to jump to defend an inactive scum partner who is probably getting replaced on the basis of a couple of votes.
ksen wrote:
Maybe you are. The more involved I get over here the more I'm thinking I have a lot to unlearn from playing over at the other site.This would appear to be another theory you and I disagree on, but again I think I am on the side of conventional wisdom.
I agree.
You answered most likely to be scumin an unconvincing manner, first it was one of the three experienced players because of the modding (false) then yarmond for not posting (wrong) and now me. I also say in the quote you are quoting from me that you link in response to requests.ksen wrote:
Well, I have answered who I think is most likely to be scum, the links I've provided have been in response to specific requests for such links.Can I ask Patrick etherandincog: is bad theory scummy? I do not really think it is but there might be logic i havent heard.
Either wayunvote vote: ksen(btw this is L-2 I believe, correct me if I am wrong)
He moved from chatting about no lynching, in an unconvincing manner; to not really answering who he thought was scum; to then linking endless games in response to requests; to finally raising concern over annachie's VLA I think fairly unfoundedly. He does all this without doing any scum hunting.
You answer question like that I cannot deny, you fail to add original content. The point you fail to answer is when you have done active scum hunting. ie look for scum signs in people that others have not yet voiced.
I dont agree there have been misrepresentations, give me specific examples and I will try to refute them. Or do you still mean when we were allegedly talking past one another, I still dont believe we were. Obviously there have been simplifications but no deliberate attempts to decieve.ksen wrote:The more I read your posts boberz the more you stand out as scum to me for the constant misrepresentations as you've tried to place suspicion on me.
Normally I don't like to vote for someone who's voted for me because people often read it as revenge-voting which can be a scum-tell. However in this case you leave me no choice but to vote for you because I feel you have continually trying to hang suspicion on me by misdirection and misrepresentation.
unvote, vote boberz
I actually called you more town for most of the game so far. I directed criticism at you for what I (and others) considered bad theory early in the game, also criticism (again not alone) for the Yarmond vote based on the inactive theory. I encouraged you and others to scum hunt on more than one occasion.
The lack of scum hunting, even after being advised to, particularly since you post a fair bit, is worrying and the reason for my vote. You post what I consider (and have noted before) white noise, ie you post nothing relevant to the game, you rehash other peoples reads/tells you chat about theory but do not scum hunt.
Your first example of scum hunting is your vote on me. It does feel very defensive but I would be (am being) defensive after a vote so perhaps a town side factor there, maybe.
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Incog thank you for your advice on bad theory, I am considering it but encountering circular logic from it in this situation unfortuantly. Can Patrick and Ether verify bad theory as a scum tell or not please?
There is a simple reason why I made him largest wagon, I consider him most scummy.-
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boberz Mafia Scum
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"Dumb vote", can you explain please. Somehow it has made me more town, before you just thought i was town, now you assert I am town. I dont really understand is what I am saying.
I thought it would be a bit of a pressure vote, but saying it is a pressure vote reduces the pressure associated, I can admit it now because you unvoted. I also stand by what I said about ksen not contributing effectively.-
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boberz Mafia Scum
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Patrick, with respect to herd's last post that i said i was more happy with. I was happy with a bit of self confession. He admitted he had not been a sharp poster, and he admitted he didnt stimulate activity. Once these have been recognised the player has to act on them, otherwise it changes from what i consider a null/scum tell (i know some of you think it definately scummy) into a definate scum tell. So because he recognised these he forces himself into becoming more active, therefore townish. However if he does not act on this, does not become more active, then he will be very scummy to me NB// he has not posted yet his next one better have some content.
I still dont like the fact he seems to want to be asked the questions, even when I asked him to post some content he said "tell me if you wanted something else" I did not like that at all but gave him the benefit of the doubt. The point is I wanted him to be original, I said the same to ksen who responded by voting for me, perhaps I should be carefull what I wish for.
Patrick a while ago you had a ksen/herd scum theory, is it still on? was it a read on each seperately or was it a joint read on two dodgyish people.
Ether, sorry i still have trouble deciphering what you lot say at times. On your randall vote, i was tempted to reply to this after randall posted, but then thought no, you asked you can have the answer. I think it is poorish.
I think it is clear that first round you three will stay in, and I should stay in. That leaves: annachie, herd, ksen, randall and yarmond (/possible successor). There is pressure on herd and ksen, and people chatting about annachie. We both agree that yarmond is a bad vote atm. So your spreading the pressure onto randall makes it look a bit powerless to me.
I can see your reasons, i object to your timing, I would have let the dust settle and apply pressure in a day or two (real time not game time).
Have noted more has been written since I beganso the last three posts/further thoughts are below:
I realise having read the first part of this post that perhaps i was being selfish in moaning at your timing, I wanted another come back to me from ksen on L-2 or L-1 before the voting changed. But now I see he was gonna duck out till tommorow anyway, that has been his tactic so I am not as viciously against your vote as I was 15 mins ago.
I have a thought brewing but I cant place it yet.-
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boberz Mafia Scum
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ether, I was tired last night and didnt make much sense. I think towns vote being split three or four ways when one or two people arent voting is bad, it is bad because it means all the votes have little value. At the moment I am not at all worried by the one vote I have (although a touch dubious about why i got it) but if I was at L-1 I would have to make a bigger fight. If scum had to make a bigger fight then they would have to commit to things and make judgements that we could then criticise in later rounds if necessary. I see herd is at L-2 but that happened after my vote had been placed.
The fact that the rest of you thought he was a bit more town is fair enough, I mentioned that I realised my criticism was selfish. I do not see him as townish, but i did have him as slightly town while a lot of you were sceptical.-
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boberz Mafia Scum
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Doesnt sound like a great place for mafia if I am honest, maybe that was just certain players though I dont want to criticise the whole website.
Anyway ksen you say i tried to lead town. What do you meant? I thought you were town on me early (maybe I have remembered wrongly) and only switched recently, surely if i was trying to lead town that would be scummy. Why would you not mention it at the time?
To the three experienced players: if one of the other experienced players is scum, who is it?-
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boberz Mafia Scum
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So if you thought i was leading town in the early game, why didnt you mention it in the early game. You choose to mention it more recently. The more you speak the more I worry about your argument breaking down.
NB// This is not a flaw in theory I consider this a flaw in logic and gameplay.
I, for the first time would be willing to lynch if it were ksen.
My question is not to try and create non-reads, it is as much to see what the three of you are thinking. I can see why Ether can be considered town having checked a meta or two, but Patrick and Incog I dont get the same vibe from. Equally I think Ether is good enough to fool us in day 1/2 so all three of you still worry me. But I am not prepared to vote one of you off untill you make an actual mistake, the next day that may be different.
What do we each think Yarmond's successor will make of this game so far, if he reads for the first time before he knows his role?
I think that if he is a good player he will notice that some people have made judgements and will have to explain themselves if they are wrong. Other people have avoided making too many hard judgements, or give themselves a get out clause when they do (I hope most can work out the people I am taling to)-
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boberz Mafia Scum
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I have read you as town, but I think you are a good enough player to make me think that. Does that make sense?
I understand you are under no obligation to answer my questions, I do not hold that against you.
I am asking, what do you think an independent player would make of our game so far? (Trying to make everyone take a step back and take a wider overview)-
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boberz Mafia Scum
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The point on trying to take a step back and consider what the outsider would think is very important. It would allow players that are town who look scummy to notice and try and change, although it obviously had the opposite impact for me.
I refute I asked you to manufacture reasons, I asked you to say which was the most scummy. The two players cannot be exactly the same in your eyes, and my thoughts on the players and how view them is important. I wish to hear what you think about each other so in day 4 when we have to make the right decision choosing between you (hypothetically) I can do that more effectively.
I think you exagerate my extensive read over meta and i did similar to you and patrick (it was done a couple of rl days ago btw and i do not have time to redo it now or find quotes/game links now). A couple of things i noticed, she tended to push minor tells very quickly and hard, in this game she has let a few minor things go. She posted quickly at first and it slowed, to a point where she went three or four days without a post on more than one occasion. She also appeared to pick fights (in a nice way) in a way she hasnt done here. Not conclusive but things I noticed and the reason i am safer on her than you and patrick.
You say in the last two pages i have made you cringe, fair enough. But that is just two events. Firstly my continued criticism of ksen, something I maintain and where my vote will remain. Secondly a question I originally asked quite casually in a line to the experienced players, answered nicely by patrick and objected to by incog and ether.
With you incog. I noticed you have a 100% record as mafia, that scared me a little, not a valid read on you this game. I repeat i do not have a valid read on you this game. I have more here
Windows update just kicked in will continue from here next time im on.-
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boberz Mafia Scum
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You are correct incog, i did deliberately set up the 'here' pun, sad isnt it. But the windows update was true.
Yes I said that as how i saw her when she was scum.
As I said you exagerate the extent to which i have read these properly, I have maintained throughout that i will do a proper meta if it seems necessary/helpfull later, as it was i had a wandered through some of your old games noticing what i did. I feel you perhaps read too much into all my statements, I dont think about the implications of how they make me look much because my mindset is more on what other people are doing/thinking I shall have to correct this.
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Any way here...
I also notice that you sometimes seem to attack a weaker player and try to siphon them off; you dont seem to be doing that this time, but i wrote that off as a read because i have doent hat quite a lot (cite me v ksen). I saw from when i read your wiki in the first page that on at least one occasion as scum you have not been pressured in the first day or two, i planned and continue to plan to try and put you under a bit of pressure. As I said neutral read.
Patrick I noticed massive differences between his good and bad games, some of them he made early mistakes and was very obvious. But when I isolate his better games he either wins or he loses because of a logical hole that can only be found towards the end game, I will have to read patrick closely but again no proper read hence neutral read.
These were not proper metas just my impressions. And they were now three days agoish.
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When you say you cringe at two pages of my posts. But you understand my ksen attack, and you think my explanatory posts have been better at explaining my question. Therefore does that mean you just object to the one or two sentences I used to question you in which case did you exagerate the two pages comment.
NB if this sounded accusatory it wasnt meant to be just a question.
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In terms of the quote I made about ksen not being scum. My vote will be staying there because i think he has begun to make logical mistakes as well as not contributing good scum hunting, he said a couple of times he doesnt know how, it is my first game as well and I think I have made a fair fist of it, even if not being good occasionally. I think that he has made a lot of mistakes, when i made the quotes i was half way throught the thought proccess. It appeared at the time that he was making too many mistakes, but then after running the thought in my head and thought that after making a couple of mistakes he may deliberately make a few more mistakes to reinforce newbie image. This would be WIFOM so I dissmissed it for the most part. But the quantity of mistakes are a townside factor, but the mistakes individually are a more sizeable scumside factor he is clearly most scum to me.
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Actually your vote on me may have made you less scummy in my eyes because if you were scum you wouldnt want me to focus on you again because i have been the only person to have any suspicion. But maybe not I will have to think this through.-
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boberz Mafia Scum
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Sorry incog i missed a couple of you points,
I dont think paranoid is the right word, I am wary because left alone with no questioning you are much more experienced players that could rinse town as scum. Surely you understand that it is no invalid for me to want to focus on you guys a bit more, the others are a bit more readable.
I am from a place called Hockley, which is just outside Southend-onSea, that is in essex (South East of England). Not far from London. Where did you think my accent was-
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boberz Mafia Scum
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Can I do that tommorow, I have had two days that were practically all nighters because of a couple of submissions I had. I have the answer which is basically i think none of them contribute much to scumhunting (i will elabortate on the extents) but ksen chats crap creating white noise, he has also has been advised more than the others on trying to improve. His mad vote on me may be a factor, but i have to read back because if i remember correctly you and patrick thought that was more scummy than me. I wil give a better answer tomorow (ie ill check my facts and chronology)-
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boberz Mafia Scum
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boberz Mafia Scum
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last point: Neither do I btw Patrick, I made that clear in a post to ether on the same subject. This is the second or third time I raise a concern, it gets questioned answered debated, I let it go and then someone else has jumped on it. That will be in the post I plan to make after I have done the laundrette.-
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So here goes;Ether wrote:I want Boberz to elaborate on why he's voting Ksen as opposed to DarthRandal/Herd/Annachie. Do not use the word "mistake" or any synonym of it.
Annachie's last few posts have begun to annoy me actually, i am going to have a massive read of him on tuesday. I feel he dismissed the role hunting too easily, I was not happy with that response. However before his trip away he had not touvhed my scumdar (not highly honed) in fact i look back and see that he opened discussions in a way i like. I actually like his pressure on herd for the random vote but think it could have ended a bit earlier.
Darth, the best of the four. He criticised me when most were calling me town. when he did post he provided a bit more substance, but not much.
Herd on top of the criticism he has from others, i dont like how he jumped on attacking me about the question aftre you three (or at least ether and incog) had already slammed it from me. But he hasnt created as much white noise, he is contentless but he posts his reads (usually copies of toher peoples reads) so we can hold him up on them later.
Ksen white noise white noise, white noise, which makes people lose any important bits, which makes him very scummy in my eytes. This is worse than being contentless, because he is contentless but tries to look like he has content meanwhile conversing with us about other things which is possibly distracting. When asked by different people about who was suspicious I think he has mentioned everyone at some point, he has certainly not said much he can be 100% pinned down on. Even herd did that.
As I mentioned ksen has had a lot of people telling him from the off to improve. All the others have just been told to post more, this has become a homogenous piece of advice that is not the same as the specific stuff given to ksen.
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Patrick Post 149 I must have misunderstood what you meant I thought that meant you thought the vote on me by ksen was scummy, you disagree fair enough. Same I presume stands for ether in post 145 (explained to me in 147)
That post looked to me like someone scared retaliating, noticing they are doing it and saying they shouldnt but doing it anyway. I read it neutral, i remove that from my argument, it wasnt really there anyway.
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Now to some other questions that have been made.
Anything to be read into darths replacement? i have at least one thing i dont want to share. But overall it just means he is busy.
Was scum on the wagon, maybe definately on atleast one of three major wagons.
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Hi Rayfrosy.-
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boberz Mafia Scum
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There is a genuine reason, I would have mentioned it other than a couple of posts made by someone else, I do not want to.ksen wrote:
Why would you want to withhold information from town? That seems a scummy move to me but then actually saying you are doing it lowers its scumminess a bit.boberz wrote:Anything to be read into darths replacement? i have at least one thing i dont want to share.-
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boberz Mafia Scum
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I forgot to deal with this.boberz wrote:last point: Neither do I btw Patrick, I made that clear in a post to ether on the same subject. This is the second or third time I raise a concern, it gets questioned answered debated, I let it go and then someone else has jumped on it. That will be in the post I plan to make after I have done the laundrette.
When I questioned herds random vote, I dismissed it then annachie mentioned it a fair bit later and apparently is still chatting about it. What to make of it i dont know.
The example in the above quote and I was sure there was another example searching my posts in isolation to find it...
i must be inventing it. When all the deadlines go ill be watching for it again like a hawk-
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boberz Mafia Scum
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Sort of but not really. Basically whoever hammers gets suspicion, whoever puts to l1 is suspicious. But because scum so often avoid doing these votes that means the l2 vote gets suspicion. Once lots of people think l2 is scumm then they would avoid that. I think people put too much on these things. Obviously it needs to be questioned but not a proper tell in my eyes.ksen wrote:
Isn't third on a bandwagon considered a scum tell?Annachie wrote:Eventually found it. It was there for 6 posts.
Ok, lets make this more general then, with 9 players in the game, and 3 voteing on one person, What chance do people think that there is at least one scum in on the vote.
The raw probability is the same as any three players being scum, 58%, but this isn't probabliity, this is game play/psychology.-
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boberz Mafia Scum
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Quick reply to your direct questions ether, i may do a proper post later.
I think ksen's posts were white noise, we may be in disagreement I have read them a few times now and i am satisfied with his lack of sybstance; as you say there are a few player without substance.
I see Darth's criticism of me as townish, because no one was doing it and in the early game (as it was) mafia particuarly newish mafia will want to try and fit in a bit more. Having said that he covered himself by saying i was townish anyway, Ill think about him a bit more.-
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boberz Mafia Scum
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I thought I had a foothold in this game when the herd ksen wagons were going on I was happy I had a read and stuff. In the last three pages I have begun to struggle, I feel we almost lost an oppurtunity there. I read through the second half of this game again and I think it is possible a scum has successfully removed pressure from one or both of them. I am going to explore that by looking closely at voting patterns and statemtn patterns within the voting posts, people are more vulnerable when they are posting i think.-
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Ill deal with ether and incog when it isnt 2:30 am. Annachie is much easier,
at what point exactly (after which post) did you think my vote was going her way and why, that was not in my head at all. If my vote was going anywhere which it wasnt it was going your way as demonstrated by my post about you four.
She is not included in that list because one of my (and her) main moans has been relative inactivity, that is one thing ether cannot be accused of.
Having said all this i have not written you off as town either ether.-
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boberz Mafia Scum
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Dont rush quite yet, although i am begining to sense that if a day goes on too long scum can work their way back into a good position, i am aware i have not done a proper post in response to incog and ether, and that more stuff some of it involving me has been raised, I will answer this and hopefully find some more stuff.
Annachie, talk to me, do you think that you have looked more scummy in the first six pages or the second six pages, if you acceot a change what explains it. And just to note, rayfrost is taking a while considering he opted in if that makes sense.-
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boberz Mafia Scum
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I look like a lurker I realise, I have played three ultimate games today and it is now midnight, I need a shower. I will do it once that is finished. I have not looked at it since my last putting it off post I am not necessarily stuggling and can certainly give you the logic i had i still believe it. I am sorry it will get done.Ether wrote:Boberz: what are you struggling to answer, exactly? Are you trying to explain the train of thought you had on the fate of the Herd- and Ksenwagons, or to justify that it's still valid? If it's the latter, have you considered that it isn't?
Meanwhile yes Tyrope that is bad, please provide info.
Annachie has seemed more scummy to me in the last few pages, I remember my very early notes being very slightly town.-
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boberz Mafia Scum
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Sorry ether I was trying to find the time to explain my thinking about the ksen/herd wagons and their dissapearence and I will, since it has been a while evaluate whether it is still valid.
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Question: Why both?
Answer:
Assumption - scum were involved in some way with the pressure mving away from herd and ksen. NB// this may not just be votes moving, but focus as well.
Justification for assumption - firstly i have since admitted that this is not necessarily true and was in part at least just a hunch. However there was pressure which I think was not adequately dealt with I feel to some extent this pressure has gone and especially with ksen seems to have completely dissapeared, I am not convinced town would let this happen, this is now a new reason for me not moving my vote, but I am now considering it.
If scum were in some way involved in the relaxation of pressure on herd or ksen, I argue it would be in their interests to remove it from both. This is so in later game when one was revealed as scum this peron would not look like a partner.
Caveat: Whilst I definately consider this (this game sounds ever more like an eco essay now) a scumside factor it could still be town who do it, because they would not want to incriminate themselves by removing pressure from one person, and remove it from both. I think this is a bad idea for town but could see why they would do it.
In terms of "somebody noticing" that is more with reference to a later period of the game when one is revealed as scum. The whole point I was making is that I think one of them is scum, if neither is scum then my point is completely wrong. I did not try to incriminate incog in this moving of pressure in a scummy way, several people were involved in this moving of pressure. As I said I was to then examine who was to blame if anyone, this can only be done properly once one is revealed as scum but it is usefull to see scenarios now, I would not lynch based on this hypo scenarios but awarenees of them is usefull.
Equally i dont incriminate ether for similar reasons (i mnention this second becaus ei am going through in cronological post order and you were mentioned later)
Is it still valid: it is valid untill both herd and ksen are cleared, it cannot be as effective as I originally believed untill one or other of their roles is found, I accept that my highlighting it was not so effective now. But it is not untrue, and not invalid logic.
Did I miss any specific things levelled at me, it will not be a case of me not reading them just overlooking them for this post???
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As promised some more new stuff...
Actually this gonna make me sound like a broken record, but ksen on vote count/ vote counter/ name confusion is more white noise and I dont like it, he also gave no info in response to an 'anything to say' question which I dont like. My vote is there for this post still
As some may have sensed from my recent posts Annachie has beguin to look more suspicious but there is nothing he has done that I dont think a bad town player would do.
Ray Frost accusing me on pg 1 seemed fair enough and he was more coherent in his criticism of me than anyone was at the time (easy when reading back I know). However it seemed to take him a very long time to get to page 1, if I was replacing in I would know I have spare time so it confuses me a little but he could just be overeager.
Tyrone cannot be dropping out already can he, if not his dissapearence is strange.-
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boberz Mafia Scum
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When I first made the statement I made it clear I had not read back and that I planned to.
I have read back (before the long post after incog asked me to clarify) and I disagree on your chronology and understanding. Firstly I put the ksen wagon at L-2 within a few posts you removed your vote to Darth, after that Patrick put L-2 on herd, all on the same page (6). So you broke the ksen wagon by voting darth. You have not at any point voted herd. I do know what happened in that period, I have lost a bit of grasp since but I understand my own point.
Perhaps I am blinded by missing a wagon I thought was good, but I am notconvinced. Since reading back I have stated the logic is not very usefull to us now, when before I thought it would be. I said this in my recent long post.
The plan is not elaborate, clever but not elaborate. It involves taking pressure off your scum partner, to cover it take pressure off another player aswell. It is not a complex play.
I have looked at why the wagons failed and thought I had spoken of them to some extent but am not happy that people are not understanding me. I cant wait for endgame to see if my communication is poor, my logic poor or you scum, or a mixture.
But of course I am defending myself, I have been attacked on the same piece of logic about four or even five times but only by two players. I refuse to go through this again, if you really think I am wrong explain why rather than question my motives.
I am fed up of this argument and unless I feel you actually move the debate forward rather than just say the same things I will just ignore posts on this subject.-
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boberz Mafia Scum
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Yeah I have seen it before, I am suprised it does not occur in forum games, it seems easier to do it forum games to me.
No, ksen is my top suspect. Now Annachie is second. Herd is third i suppose, but not on the same level as the other two. Both replacements are neutral to me really I cant work it out, I suppose i didnt like darth incredibly so maybe ray a tiny bit scum not much.
More town but not pout of my sight yet. You ether and incog. I had ether down as town completely, but i sense she refused to even try andunderstand me there, so she has dropped to your level, but that is still a town read ish.-
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