Mini Normal 2326 | Everything has exploded !

[DarthPunk]

2.1

Luca Blight (2) :

DarthPunk, outoforder

Not Voting (9):

Hu Tao / Vivax / Grackaroni / Luca Blight / Oatsmaster / Naerys / SuperfluousNinja / gob / Dannflor

With 11 Alive, it takes 6 to secure an execution.

Day Two ends in (expired on 2024-02-18 14:43:52)

Mod Notes

yummy

Flavor

Spoiler:

Doing flavor later cause i'm sad

It’s oats as the second vote not OOO just fyi

[DarthPunk]

Updated reads list Ninja, pls.
You sure have some grasp on where the misyeet puts you regarding your reads.

Please

[DarthPunk]

DP do you agree or disagree or what with my preferred scumteam here?
Do you have something to add there?

I’d say nerys and gob are the two others I’d pick but I could also see ninja and potentially Dann/vivax

I’m a bit cautious about preflip associations this game as I got burned hard in obs last game doing that.

Part of me just thinks that everyone should just post their reads and then we flip the red check. Cause it would help with the Poe, particularly if it’s outside of those 4-5 slots.

[DarthPunk]

I don’t know why Luca makes that terrible endorsement of ninja if they are maf maf and in a world when Luca is doing that why can we not consider dann

[DarthPunk]

Actually I still think it could be Luca-dann-x

But I just want to flip mafia and see then.

[DarthPunk]

I don’t know why Luca makes that terrible endorsement of ninja if they are maf maf and in a world when Luca is doing that why can we not consider dann

Yeah i am also considering Dann. I just see it a bit more unlike that Luca goes full "ham" on Dann of all the people at the start of the game just to put him in super town category a bit later for one post. But if it's not Ninja or Dann, then i really have no clue who it could be.

I really don't think Naerys as a super low volume poster just comes out with their second post in the game and out of nowhere says their scumbuddy is town, twice, just like that and nothing else...

I’d agree with the naerys take on tl but apparently here in rvs distancing is a thing so less inclined to read in to it

[DarthPunk]

Actually I still think it could be Luca-dann-x

But I just want to flip mafia and see then.

It's actually pretty fun though, i don't remember when i have lived until D3 as town. Especially with DP in the game as most likely town -- and we BOTH live!!

We better carry in that case

[DarthPunk]

I still have an hour or so before sleeputime, so if you're around, i would really love to play mafia with you FOR ONCE Darthpunk, we dont usually get to do that since we're on the opposite sides of the world.

I was driving for 3 hours now I’m at the beach for the weekend.

Illl be around once I’m back at work and sporadically. But we will get time later in the game with huge phases.

I think vivax is town every time he posts properly fwiw.

[DarthPunk]

meh... i think i am gonna modkill myself before the game is over. Sorry Mafiascum forum

Me too.

[DarthPunk]

Okay. I'm just going to say it.

I don't have a guilty on anyone.

I wanted to see if scum would do anything awkward when faced in this scenario. Or even tell on themselves. And I wanted to get reactions from people in general for reads and I think I got a few things from this.

Lol

[DarthPunk]

I’m a few pages behind and got into trouble with my gf for posting on our trip away.

I’ll be away for a while

VOTE: Ht

[DarthPunk]

The almighty Darth Punk shriveled to the size of a pea in a sauna ice water pool within moments

You would understand if you saw my gf

[DarthPunk]

Can anyone explain to me why ht trying to out a counterclaim is something a townie would do?

That’s the second super scummy thing she has done this game , it’s crazy to me how she is just written off as town.

[DarthPunk]

I see the votes on me I would appreciate if you guys gave me some time to play before you hammer.

Basic response to grack post. I had shit up the thread for two days arguing about Luca and when ooo came In the thread and town read him. I basically gave up for the evening and doubted my read for a second. I have regrets but it is what it is.

After two days of looking back on the thread I was sure about Luca and ht. The fake cop claim from ht threw me for a minute but now I am sure again.

I have felt you were town grack since you started posting and I’m pretty sure I mentioned that so I’m not sure why you think I need to be curious about your alignment if I have two solid scum reads and a town read on you while I’m super busy irl.


My play this game has been really disrupted by irl stuff cause of my birthday and the fact it’s summer so I’m doing outdoor stuff.

I think my play stands on its own when I’m active but I don’t blame people being thrown by engagement levels when i am so sporadic in my activity.

I’ll try and have a re-read but I’m pretty locked in on a Luca - ht - x team maybe with gob cause he is just a massive troll who doesn’t actually play the game.

Anyway that’s my response pretty much.

[DarthPunk]

I don’t know why anyone thinks I am more likely to sheep oats and ooo as mafia than as town.

I am far less likely to do that as mafia.

[DarthPunk]

Vivax did you read my case on Luca. Can you talk to me about it assuming we aren’t partnered?

What are your thoughts?

[DarthPunk]

Are there any other reasons you think dp is mafia grack? Other than the flip onto dunn

That's the main thing I read that prompted my post. I didn't think DP/OutofOrder's case on Luca was that good

and this seemed much more solid to me. I'm also not really feeling the Luca/Hu-Tao scum world.

I will admit I haven't been digging deeply into any ISOs.

Can you explain to me why you don't think it was that good?

[DarthPunk]

Luca, can you give me your reads if oats and myself flip town?

[DarthPunk]

I have issues with the fact that I can't see a world in which HT and Luca are mafia.

Luca also just OMGUS me and oats and has no other scum reads really is another nail in the coffin (in my mind I know that most of you don't agree) and particularly ironic as that is something he accused me of doing and a reason he 'leaned scum' on me (inherent hedging anyone)

I don't think there is a world where that is not the case so I am just going to operate assuming that is just true and try and find the 3rd mafia.

I'm just going to filter dive and see what I can find.

But basically I am ruling out Dann, Ooo and Oats.

Out of those three I don't really think Dann can be mafia at this point, he adjusts really quickly to new information and well basically his own self meta seems to apply, he looks like he is actively trying to solve the game.

Ooo has been obv town when he is in the thread.

Oats - Views the game in the same way as me, as small part of me worries that I have been pocketed, but I am keeping it simple and assuming that he just feels the same way about me, particularly as we have both been on the receiving end of scummyness from Luca all game.

The next tier are less certaing

Grack - Looks town to me whenever he posts. Same as OOO I can see thinking behind his questioning, I think his pushes have been reasonable (aside from the one on me obviously), I don't understand why people think he is scum aside from activity tells (ninja saying his posts have less substance was weird)

Vivax - Looks like town to me one minute and mafia the next - I find his progression of his DP read weird, because before the end of day he said he wouldn't be surprised if I died over the Un CC'd jailkeeper and then he completely flipped his read. He seems more confident to me than he has looked in his previous mafia game, so that makes me lean town even when his reads are shit. The grack/DP/Luca team is farcical and he should have moved off that by now IMO. Less town that grack and a slot to watch.

Ninja - Her posts are painful to read, and I completely disagree with her a lot of the time. She just looks openly lost to me, and I think mafia will try and pretend that they aren't (like luca)

Null tier

Gob - Unreadable troll and a good lim.

Naerys - I have to filter her because I have no idea what her positions are she has been that unforgettable = good lim (but let me check her iso)

Scum tier

Luca - I have posted about why enough, if you are all too stupid to understand why he is mafia and get taken in by him then whatever. If this was on TL I would just flame him and everyone else until one of us dies, but I am trying to be polite on this site and not shit up the thread.

HT - Has basically done two inexcusable things. 1) agreed with a post that called her scum, in a way that the post only made sense if she was scum and said basically nothing if she is not scum. If you can;t read that interaction and see why that makes her mafia I will just laught at you post game pretty much.
2.) why fake claim cop for (reactions) it achieved nothing, it could out a potential counter claim - why does town think this is a good idea? Back in the old days on TL we had a phrase "lim all liars." She lied. Must die. Same applies to Luca.

Anyway these are my thoughts at this time, I am going to ISO and read bits of the thread, I welcome anyone at all to ask me some questions about these reads so we can try to solve the game together (just watch Luca drown it out with Oats/DP omgus.)

[DarthPunk]

Luca, can you give me your reads if oats and myself flip town?

I very much doubt you're both town, but i would be looking pretty hard at Vivax. I would reassess Dann too. Currently, Ninja is my strongest townread.

I don't want your town read. I want to know how you would reassess the game assuming we are town.

If you want I can reassess the game assuming you are town too.

We both know we are just going to call each other mafia, so why not just do something else, both our points are in the thread.

Why would you look at Vivax and Dann?

Dann has seemed very townie to me as the game has progressed and we stopped getting caught on each other.

[DarthPunk]

'Omgus' is getting thrown a lot this game, and quite inappropriately from my understanding of the term.

Is there some rule where if someone suspects you, you can then never suspect that player later on? It's ridiculous.

I even townread Oats for the vast majority of D1, despite him scumreading me. It's only from my recent realisations that I've come to the conclusion he is most likely scum. Same for Darth - I didn't immediately scumread him, but it's become more and more apparent to me that he doesn't believe what he actually posts, which means he's making up his reads.

Im using it the same way that you used it, now move on, stop repeating yourself and answer my questions please.

or if you would like to just not engage that is cool too, what I am NOT going to do, is have my fucking posting disrupted by you -every phase- cause we happen to be playing at the same time.

[DarthPunk]

Luca, can you give me your reads if oats and myself flip town?

I very much doubt you're both town, but i would be looking pretty hard at Vivax. I would reassess Dann too. Currently, Ninja is my strongest townread.

I don't want your town read. I want to know how you would reassess the game assuming we are town.

If you want I can reassess the game assuming you are town too.

We both know we are just going to call each other mafia, so why not just do something else, both our points are in the thread.

Why would you look at Vivax and Dann?

Dann has seemed very townie to me as the game has progressed and we stopped getting caught on each other.

Dann's D1 play was very townie, but I don't understand why he suddenly scumreads me (cue cries of 'omgus'). Perhaps he has a valid explanation for that - we'll see.

I haven't liked Vivax's recent posts. I will elaborate more on him later on, but I don't want to get side-tracked, as I know you'd like me to.

Ok whatever.

[DarthPunk]

'Omgus' is getting thrown a lot this game, and quite inappropriately from my understanding of the term.

Is there some rule where if someone suspects you, you can then never suspect that player later on? It's ridiculous.

I even townread Oats for the vast majority of D1, despite him scumreading me. It's only from my recent realisations that I've come to the conclusion he is most likely scum. Same for Darth - I didn't immediately scumread him, but it's become more and more apparent to me that he doesn't believe what he actually posts, which means he's making up his reads.

Im using it the same way that you used it, now move on, stop repeating yourself and answer my questions please.

or if you would like to just not engage that is cool too,

what I am NOT going to do, is have my fucking posting disrupted by you -every phase- cause we happen to be playing at the same time.

That's rich, when it was you who suddenly launched your attack on me when I was in the process of Iso'ing people.

It was a good case, and I also have intentionally left you space in the thread out of consideration to you and others which is probably why I am being scum read right now. Keep going if you want I am ignoring you and doing other things, if I flip you will flip next so I don't really care, I have shit to do IRL anyway.

[DarthPunk]

Oh look, oats - Darth is getting frustrated with me!

That must mean he's scum, right? As he wouldn't get frustrated if he actually thought I was scum? According to your logic.

Broken record for three days straight lmao.

[DarthPunk]

If there is anyone else around im keen to chat, otherwise im going to ISO null reads.

[DarthPunk]

Nerys filter dive:

Very minimal investment in the game. states they are not reading the thread.

I can see some thought processes happening though

For example

What are your reasons for voting Luca?

Bad reaction to Hu Tao´s experiment. Got overly defensive imo

In the post above they have considered and responded to Luca's reaction to the HT fake claim.

also in this response to gob below.

i think dann did plenty of solving and gob is sus

VOTE: gob
i actually wish to head this way
anybody up for this

But as I was reading I think Nearys just spewed herself as town

You say you're thinking about the night kills, yes? So you're thinking about this after we would have gotten our chance to see Roden's alignment, not to mention that Roden had claimed being jailkeeper during day 1 also. But if you were really interested in putting some thought into the nightkills and wondering how and why they happened like they did, why wouldn't one of the very first things you do, if not THE first thing, be to check the role of the person who died?

You are confusing me. I knew that Roden flipped jk i just didnt know he claimed it.

You say you're thinking about the night kills, yes? So you're thinking about this after we would have gotten our chance to see Roden's alignment, not to mention that Roden had claimed being jailkeeper during day 1 also. But if you were really interested in putting some thought into the nightkills and wondering how and why they happened like they did, why wouldn't one of the very first things you do, if not THE first thing, be to check the role of the person who died?

You are confusing me. I knew that Roden flipped jk i just didnt know he claimed it.

I see, I was maybe misunderstanding things. So when you're looking into how scum "got lucky", you're wondering how they got lucky killing the JAILKEEPER specifically. I thought you might have meant that they got lucky getting a kill, period.

i meant that they were either lucky or very observant killing cop AND jk

wait i got mixed up games

rofl

I find it very difficult to believe that someone posting in the way that they have contrived to engage in this as a "fake town spew"

I think Nareys is out of my lim pool.

[DarthPunk]

Are there any other reasons you think dp is mafia grack? Other than the flip onto dunn

That's the main thing I read that prompted my post. I didn't think DP/OutofOrder's case on Luca was that good

and this seemed much more solid to me. I'm also not really feeling the Luca/Hu-Tao scum world.

I will admit I haven't been digging deeply into any ISOs.

Can you explain to me why you don't think it was that good?

If I follow correctly your case starts with Ninja's large post:
499
Luca is blown away by her post and says that it reflects/contributed to his own thoughts citing her reads on Dunn/Gob/Vivax/You. Here I agree with you that it's easy for scum to see a big post and just quickly call it a town post while copying some of the reads.
773
OutofOrder points out 3 issues that he has with Ninja's post:
Ninja gave a read on Dann in a previous post that seemed to be based off his push on her while she was saying that she missed that post - something I found odd at the time as well.
OutofOrder does not believe that Ninja gave a good justification for town reading Luca - ok. I don't follow why he takes issues with her reasons for town reading Luca.
OutofOrder says something about confirmation bias regarding Ninja's read on him - something I don't understand.

None of these three things have anything to do with what Luca commented on in his own post, and none of them seem like they should stick out to him - especially since he was already town reading Dann.
793
Dunnstral also says that he doesn't understand/agree with any of the things OutofOrder was talking about regarding the flaws in Ninja's post, but that he agrees that it's easy for scum to say they fully agree with a big post and that there should be some disagreement.
798
Later in the game Luca pushes Dunnstral and as part of that push he argues that what OutofOrder said was not true because he actually did disagree with parts of Ninja's post when he talked about his read on Oats and that he thinks Dunnstral would be reading his posts more carefully if he was town.
2256
Now I've carefully read the posts in the order that you laid out in your case. Overall I don't see what I'm supposed to find from it. It seems to me that the biggest part of the case has to do with Luca not noticing the flaws in Ninja's post specific to OutofOrder, which I also don't see/agree with, and even Dunnstral disagrees with those flaws as well in the post that you quoted as evidence.

I am really not able to follow how this series of posts has lead to the heavily sensationalized narrative in the cases you wrote below, but after reading through it closely I don't think it's coming from a good place.

(DP's case for reference)
2264
2271

Can you read it again and actually understand the posts before you make a conclusion. I know it is dense, but I find it supremely unfair that you basically don't understand what is happening and then are drawing and sharing a conclusion about it.

[DarthPunk]

Like I really don't know how I am supposed to defend myself against that when you can't understand the case and then call me mafia for the case you don't understand...

[DarthPunk]

Grack? do you think that OOO and I are scum together?

If not, why do you think OOO thought I had posted the best case in the game at the point he read it?

[DarthPunk]

That's pretty fucking poor form from grack, you can take him firmly out of my town read section based on that alone.

[DarthPunk]

Grack? do you think that OOO and I are scum together?

If not, why do you think OOO thought I had posted the best case in the game at the point he read it?

No I don't think you're scum together.

Because it's continuing on his own push based off his three issues that he thinks Luca should have with Ninja's post.

No it's not at all grack. It really isnt.

[DarthPunk]

I will summarize and paraphrase because I have already posted all the quotes and you obviously have no idea what is going on and are calling me scum because of it.

1.) Ninja makes a bad post with inherent contradictions. (doesn't matter what or who this is about)

2.) Luca comes in and says that it is a brilliant post and almost entirely aligns with his thinking except for the oats part.

3.) DP and OOO pressure Luca because we both identified huge issues in the post that contradict themselves.

4.) Luca vaguely backtracks and gestures towards it not being 100% agreement because of the oats part that he didn't agree with. ( Backtracking off the contradictions which were not mentioned in his original analyis of the post which I can see as town just ego preserving being dumb)

5.) The scummy part, is that he then uses Dunn agreeing that point 2 was a problem as a reason to scum read him, when he should KNOW, that dunn's analysis at that point was good, and then Luca LIES about the facts of the matter.

If you still can't follow after that grack I have no fucking clue what to say.

[DarthPunk]

That's pretty fucking poor form from grack, you can take him firmly out of my town read section based on that alone.

If you want to convince me why what you say is true go ahead, but at the moment you seem more concerned with shouting me down.

I'm literally not, I am just a bit upset that you would do that and push me for it when you blatantly don't understand what is going on.

[DarthPunk]

And If Dunn's analysis was so good, and he was spewed town, why did you vote him?

I thought I could be wrong and my case falls apart if dunn is maf?

[DarthPunk]

Why did grack disappear after i tried to explain?

[DarthPunk]

And If Dunn's analysis was so good, and he was spewed town, why did you vote him?

I thought I could be wrong and my case falls apart if dunn is maf?

I'll ask you again. Where did I 'vaguely backtrack'?

And why did you suddenly think you were wrong?

Ooo is a good player I regularly sheep, oats has been my strongest town read all game and I respect his opinion?

Also I am often wrong as town it would be pretty arrogant to never waiver right.

I think scum never waiver more than town.

As to the other stuff, I have repeated it at length, good players understand the case and, again, I am not getting into it with you.

Why do you keep asking me to convince you are mafia lol.

If anyone else wants to know the answer to that question I can pull up the post but it is also quoted in my case and I suggest you read the case

[DarthPunk]

I’m thinking grack/gob/vivax for the last mafia slot.

[DarthPunk]

It’s. in. my. case. I have repeated it at least 4 times at this point. read your own iso or my own I don’t care.

Good grief.

[DarthPunk]

It’s going to be really fun reading Luca try and backtrack from mislimming me if I flip.

Probably he will just push oats. This guy has not adjusted a scum read since early day one when he didn’t have scum reads.

He is just mafia.

I’m appalled at the play of everyone who town reads him.

[DarthPunk]

It is there. I can’t be arsed finding it while I’m phone posting. if anyone else cares I’ll post tomorrow when I’m on a pc

[DarthPunk]

DP can you explain what was going through your head when you switched votes EoD1?

It’s 1am and Im about to go to sleep. But I’ll respond to this before bed.

Basically I had been calling luca scum for two whole days with Oats. you came back to the thread and had a strong scum read on Dunn and oats also had a scum read there. And you were calling Luca town as well.

My case on Luca really didn’t make sense with a mafia Dunn. And I thought since you were town reading Luca and scum reading Dunn maybe I was wrong or was right for the wrong reasons so I just sheeped you and oats and went to bed.

That’s it.

[DarthPunk]

Ninja - Her posts are painful to read, and I completely disagree with her a lot of the time. She just looks openly lost to me, and I think mafia will try and pretend that they aren't (like luca)

Can you tell me which of my posts are "painful to read"? Can you explain in detail where any of my logic is wrong?

Hopefully you have more than just "see, in this post, you suggest Luca is town, and he isn't".

They are just overly verbose and difficult to follow at times. That’s what I meant.

[DarthPunk]

Can you read it again and actually understand the posts before you make a conclusion. I know it is dense, but I find it supremely unfair that you basically don't understand what is happening and then are drawing and sharing a conclusion about it.

Like I really don't know how I am supposed to defend myself against that when you can't understand the case and then call me mafia for the case you don't understand...

That's pretty fucking poor form from grack, you can take him firmly out of my town read section based on that alone.

Frankly, you need to tone it down and cool off.

This kind of rhetoric is not helpful to town. You're brow-beating us with this. I understand being frustrated but I don't understand not realizing that this kind of rhetoric makes people not want to both talk to you or even play this game.

Tell me this: is it a scum tactic to brow-beat people and intimidate them into shutting up? If so, then why are YOU employing the tactic? That's not a rhetorical question. I want an answer.

I don’t think I am out of line here, particularly as I know grack from my site.

I don’t think it’s your role to police my interactions with grack or my interactions at all, particularly when I know I have not crossed any lines.

I really wished you left this stuff to the hosts.

Like a not insignificant amount of your contributions seem to be stuff like this which is tiresome and not actually playing the game.

If grack has an issue he is welcome to raise it with me or the host.

[DarthPunk]

I’m thinking grack/gob/vivax for the last mafia slot.

It’s going to be really fun reading Luca try and backtrack from mislimming me if I flip.

Probably he will just push oats. This guy has not adjusted a scum read since early day one when he didn’t have scum reads.

He is just mafia.

I’m appalled at the play of everyone who town reads him.

These posts contradict each other. You exclude Luca from your scum pool, but then you say you are APPALLED that anyone could town read him!

Explain?

I see Luca kindly explained the issue here. But I feel as if the last few posts just indicate you aren’t reading the thread closely or are not following the game.

Why is that?

[DarthPunk]

Why are you not scumreading gob, Luca?
If you know you are town you should know there is simply no reason why mafia should vote for Dunn D1 over you. You should be the first one to suspect gob's post on who he wants to yeet D2.

I'm not sure what to make of Gob.

I've already explained why it benefits scum!Darth for Dunn to be voted out instead of me D1.

Can you be more specific about what you mean regarding Gob's post?

Yes i can.

gob groups up four people on "who to vote for today" based on reasoning "they were last to vote for Dunnstral". Now why this makes no sense is because he doesn't think Luca is mafia. If Luca is mafia in his mind, then his reasoning

could

make sense. Otherwise, and especially, without any further reasoning, grouping those four people doesn't make any sense.

Just saying "one of the mafias voted Dunnstral in the last 4 people who voted" doesn't mean anything. For instance you (and Grack) have given reasoning why specifically DP's vote makes him mafia. That's fine. gob however doesn't give any reasoning at all, and without any further reasoning it shouldn't matter to him whether mafia votes for Luca or Dunnstral, because if both of the wagons are town, mafia simply doesn't care who to vote. Sure there are other factors that might affect this, but like simply just creating an arbitary situation where some arbitary group of players MUST have mafia in them is just straight out scummy. Especially considering that:
- He doesn't think youre mafia
- He doesnt include Ninja here, since it didn't really matter which one of Dann / Ninja voted Dunnstral since both were going to hammer if the other one didn't based on the thread.
- In fact Ninja should look more suspicious to gob as based on his story he has created from the situation. It could be argued that Ninja didnt want to take the responsibility from the hammer, while Dann did (to not look bad taking part into a misyeet)

Now why i find it weird for you, is because aside from mafia, you are the player who knows youre town (in case youre town). You should be the one who gets red flags from this for sure.

Good post.

[DarthPunk]

Let's do a 1v1, me vs Darth, and if one of us flips town then the other is automatically the next day's elimination. I have full confidence in my read, and Darth seemingly does too.

I’m down.

[DarthPunk]

The fact he gets so toxic is just another benefit of voting him out - we won't have to deal with that anymore and game instantly becomes more enjoyable.

This is super manipulative based on ninjas proclivities towards behaviour standards.

I don’t Think I have been toxic at all. Can you point out how this has been the case.

Because that is a serious thing to say to someone that is not about their alignment.

[DarthPunk]

DP can you explain what was going through your head when you switched votes EoD1?

It’s 1am and Im about to go to sleep. But I’ll respond to this before bed.

Basically I had been calling luca scum for two whole days with Oats. you came back to the thread and had a strong scum read on Dunn and oats also had a scum read there. And you were calling Luca town as well.

My case on Luca really didn’t make sense with a mafia Dunn. And I thought since you were town reading Luca and scum reading Dunn maybe I was wrong or was right for the wrong reasons so I just sheeped you and oats and went to bed.

That’s it.

Here's the problem. I had at that point read only until p70 or whatever. I had not seen your case on Luca, that should be clear from thread when i answered Luca's post with mine, and set a reminder for myself where i was at the moment catching up. What happened after that is the following:
- You told me "soon you'll see Hu Tao scumclaiming"
- I saw that, didn't think it's scumclaim
- I said i don't think Luca is a good place for a vote, i vote for Dunnstral and immediately after that i say i have read up to p71.
- This is how you respond:

anyway, I'm going to bed, I don't know wtf ooo is thinking but im sure he will have some good shit when he can post.

Until then vote is on HT or Luca don't really care tbh they both mafia.

anyway, I'm going to bed, I don't know wtf ooo is thinking but im sure he will have some good shit when he can post.

Until then vote is on HT or Luca don't really care tbh they both mafia.

I'm pretty sure both of those votes are not good.
I'll try to be around at least for a little while in the evening.

Have you read the whole thread?

No, i clearly hadn't read the whole thread. Why in the world you have no passion to convince me on the read/case you have made????

It's very non-town!DP'y to be honest. I understand the point of "why would i do this as mafia", but i don't know... it's not a good reasoning for you to not be mafia, when as town you SHOULD have tried to convince me voting for your scumread who i also thought could be mafia, especially when i am missing 20 pages and you should very well know that since i goddamn wrote it in the thread!!

It was super late and I was really sick of yelling about Luca being mafia. I just gave up and thought I could be wrong.

I get how it makes me look but that is the fact of the matter.

Just like it’s 1:40am now and I’m going to have to sleep.

It’s super unfortunate our schedules are not aligned and you weren’t around when those cases were being formed in the thread but it is what it is.

I still think the ht stuff was a scum claim. Meh.

[DarthPunk]

DP can you explain what was going through your head when you switched votes EoD1?

It’s 1am and Im about to go to sleep. But I’ll respond to this before bed.

Basically I had been calling luca scum for two whole days with Oats. you came back to the thread and had a strong scum read on Dunn and oats also had a scum read there. And you were calling Luca town as well.

My case on Luca really didn’t make sense with a mafia Dunn. And I thought since you were town reading Luca and scum reading Dunn maybe I was wrong or was right for the wrong reasons so I just sheeped you and oats and went to bed.

That’s it.

Here's the problem. I had at that point read only until p70 or whatever. I had not seen your case on Luca, that should be clear from thread when i answered Luca's post with mine, and set a reminder for myself where i was at the moment catching up. What happened after that is the following:
- You told me "soon you'll see Hu Tao scumclaiming"
- I saw that, didn't think it's scumclaim
- I said i don't think Luca is a good place for a vote, i vote for Dunnstral and immediately after that i say i have read up to p71.
- This is how you respond:

anyway, I'm going to bed, I don't know wtf ooo is thinking but im sure he will have some good shit when he can post.

Until then vote is on HT or Luca don't really care tbh they both mafia.

anyway, I'm going to bed, I don't know wtf ooo is thinking but im sure he will have some good shit when he can post.

Until then vote is on HT or Luca don't really care tbh they both mafia.

I'm pretty sure both of those votes are not good.
I'll try to be around at least for a little while in the evening.

Have you read the whole thread?

No, i clearly hadn't read the whole thread. Why in the world you have no passion to convince me on the read/case you have made????

It's very non-town!DP'y to be honest. I understand the point of "why would i do this as mafia", but i don't know... it's not a good reasoning for you to not be mafia, when as town you SHOULD have tried to convince me voting for your scumread who i also thought could be mafia, especially when i am missing 20 pages and you should very well know that since i goddamn wrote it in the thread!!

By the way I had no idea Dunn would be hammered as we still had four days left and I was sleeping when it went down.

I was operating under the assumption that I could still hash out the Luca stuff with you and we would go another four days or so.

It was literally a throwaway sheep vote during a moment of weakness sheeping my two town reads when I had four more days to get into stuff with you.

I hardly see how that makes me mafia, town or anything.

[DarthPunk]

Do you think Luca goes 1v1 against you as mafia?
Do you think he will win that argument?

It’s concerning tbh. Doesn’t make much sense as mafia but I kind of feel like he knows that and that was the point of the post more than the actual 1v1 proposition.

I am emotionally inclined to agree to it as well. But I find it outside of the spirit of the game and I generally would never entertain shit like that as either alignment.

[DarthPunk]

The fact he gets so toxic is just another benefit of voting him out - we won't have to deal with that anymore and game instantly becomes more enjoyable.

This is super manipulative based on ninjas proclivities towards behaviour standards.

I don’t Think I have been toxic at all. Can you point out how this has been the case.

Because that is a serious thing to say to someone that is not about their alignment.

I will say that for me the game has become unenjoyable (although I feel better now I've accepted my inevitable lim) due to the atmosphere created in the thread from players such as you and Oats. I realise now it's probably part of your plan as scum to create such an environment, where people are afraid to even vote you for what your reaction might be. The fact you gang up as well, it's pretty shitty to play against.

I wouldn't say that anything you've particularly said has crossed the line, so I will take back my 'toxic' comment, as maybe that was a bit harsh.

You are giving as good as you are getting tbh.

I found that comment to not only be off the mark but also highly manipulative in the way it was used with ninja, enticing her to vote your way based on a narrative of toxicity where there is none. Not based on alignment. But for personal reasons.

Really distasteful overall regardless of your alignment.

[DarthPunk]

Do you think Luca goes 1v1 against you as mafia?
Do you think he will win that argument?

It’s concerning tbh. Doesn’t make much sense as mafia but I kind of feel like he knows that and that was the point of the post more than the actual 1v1 proposition.

I am emotionally inclined to agree to it as well. But I find it outside of the spirit of the game and I generally would never entertain shit like that as either alignment.

So do you agree to it or not? It seems like you're backtracking a bit here after agreeing to it earlier.

Nah I don’t agree to stuff like that ever as either alignment.

It’s outside of the spirit of the game in my opinion and results in the game becoming a series of 1v1 ego battles and robs the other players of agency in decision making if it even goes ahead.

I am happy when either of us are eliminated for the people in the thread to decide what to do after the flips.

[DarthPunk]

The fact he gets so toxic is just another benefit of voting him out - we won't have to deal with that anymore and game instantly becomes more enjoyable.

This is super manipulative based on ninjas proclivities towards behaviour standards.

I don’t Think I have been toxic at all. Can you point out how this has been the case.

Because that is a serious thing to say to someone that is not about their alignment.

I will say that for me the game has become unenjoyable (although I feel better now I've accepted my inevitable lim) due to the atmosphere created in the thread from players such as you and Oats. I realise now it's probably part of your plan as scum to create such an environment, where people are afraid to even vote you for what your reaction might be. The fact you gang up as well, it's pretty shitty to play against.

I wouldn't say that anything you've particularly said has crossed the line, so I will take back my 'toxic' comment, as maybe that was a bit harsh.

You are giving as good as you are getting tbh.

I found that comment to not only be off the mark but also highly manipulative in the way it was used with ninja, enticing her to vote your way based on a narrative of toxicity where there is none. Not based on alignment. But for personal reasons.

Really distasteful overall regardless of your alignment.

You and Oats have shouted me down for most of the game, including at times when I wasn't even talking to you (like when I was Iso'ing people). I think I'm entitled to bite back a little.

Absolutely you are, that is the game. But I have outlined where you crossed the line with that toxic comment and I think you agree.

I wish you hadn’t set ninja off but I think you did it on purpose so I will blame that on you

The other stuff is part of the game and having strong players with opposed views will always result in tension I don’t have harsh feelings towards you for also making the game suck for me. As long as we both acknowledged we are active participants (I even tried to disengage several times to give you space and get called mafia for it )

[DarthPunk]

The fact he gets so toxic is just another benefit of voting him out - we won't have to deal with that anymore and game instantly becomes more enjoyable.

This is super manipulative based on ninjas proclivities towards behaviour standards.

I don’t Think I have been toxic at all. Can you point out how this has been the case.

Because that is a serious thing to say to someone that is not about their alignment.

I will say that for me the game has become unenjoyable (although I feel better now I've accepted my inevitable lim) due to the atmosphere created in the thread from players such as you and Oats. I realise now it's probably part of your plan as scum to create such an environment, where people are afraid to even vote you for what your reaction might be. The fact you gang up as well, it's pretty shitty to play against.

I wouldn't say that anything you've particularly said has crossed the line, so I will take back my 'toxic' comment, as maybe that was a bit harsh.

You are giving as good as you are getting tbh.

I found that comment to not only be off the mark but also highly manipulative in the way it was used with ninja, enticing her to vote your way based on a narrative of toxicity where there is none. Not based on alignment. But for personal reasons.

Really distasteful overall regardless of your alignment.

Please. You portray me like this helpless child who is unable to control my emotions and can be easily manipulated. Stop with this angle, it's not true.

It’s not about you ninja. It’s about the post. It was factually manipulative. I am not saying it worked, would work or anything about you really

[DarthPunk]

Who called you mafia for that?

An why would you want to give me space when you heavily scumread me?

Because people asked me to after our first go around. And it’s just nicer for me you and everyone if we shit up the thread less.

I still want to lim you. I still think you are mafia but us just arguing is hardly a pro town endeavour.

Also I think you are mafia so I don’t think there is any point in arguing or discussing with you why you are mafia.

[DarthPunk]

Grack and vivax saying I do t believe in my read or whatever.

This is me being heavily restrained in my interactions compared to what they are used to. (To be nice as a guest)

I think they are misreading that as lack of belief or whatever.

[DarthPunk]

I’m appalled at the play of everyone who town reads him.

You ask where you've been toxic? This is Exhibit A. You're telling everyone that has a read that differs from yours that you are "appalled by their play". That is toxic. Even if it's really how you feel, it is still toxic.

I mean, as town, you should know better than this. You don't want to demoralize town, not EVER, and sure someone who has played as long as you have knows that. Zeus knows how difficult it is to sort through games like this and how easy it is to get fired up, so if you're really on the side of order and not on the side of chaos, you should have zero interest in saying stuff like this that could only serve to make townies feel worse about themselves.

And please stop acting like I'm bringing this up because I think it breaks the rules. I'm aware of what is allowed in this game. Everything I'm bringing up in here is to help me scum read you; it's not from some angle that I want the mod to straighten you out or some such thing. If I actually think that's happening, I have the ability to DM the mod and take it up privately, and I WOULD do that privately if I had an actual concern about rules being broken. I wouldn't do that HERE.

That is not toxic in the context of a mafia game.

Calling someone toxic is horrible and also a personal attack.

I have not attacked anyone personally at all in this game ninja. I have attacked their reads or their alignment or their posts. None of that is personal.

But you laughed about eliminating me for being toxic, personally.

So I would appreciate it if you just talked about the game and let the mods mod.

[DarthPunk]

Who called you mafia for that?

An why would you want to give me space when you heavily scumread me?

Because people asked me to after our first go around. And it’s just nicer for me you and everyone if we shit up the thread less.

I still want to lim you. I still think you are mafia but us just arguing is hardly a pro town endeavour.

Also I think you are mafia so I don’t think there is any point in arguing or discussing with you why you are mafia.

Ok, I can agree to not shitting up the thread, at least.

btw, what is your main reason for thinking I'm scum? Just so everyone is clear. Summarise it as briefly as you can.

No.

I have gone over this again and again and it’s late.

You of all people should know why

I don’t know why people can’t just iso me and find out, it’s like they aren’t bothering to read the game properly.

[DarthPunk]

Can you read it again and actually understand the posts before you make a conclusion. I know it is dense, but I find it supremely unfair that you basically don't understand what is happening and then are drawing and sharing a conclusion about it.

Like I really don't know how I am supposed to defend myself against that when you can't understand the case and then call me mafia for the case you don't understand...

That's pretty fucking poor form from grack, you can take him firmly out of my town read section based on that alone.

Frankly, you need to tone it down and cool off.

This kind of rhetoric is not helpful to town. You're brow-beating us with this. I understand being frustrated but I don't understand not realizing that this kind of rhetoric makes people not want to both talk to you or even play this game.

Tell me this: is it a scum tactic to brow-beat people and intimidate them into shutting up? If so, then why are YOU employing the tactic? That's not a rhetorical question. I want an answer.

Oh to the last part. Doing that is normal as both alignments imo. Case in point, Luca and I have been doing that to each other and we can’t both be mafia.

[DarthPunk]

To be fair, Darth is saying the 'last mafia slot' there. He 'thinks' me and Hu Tao are the other two.

I dont understand how DP thinks HT is mafia with you. That doesn't make any sense that she claims investigative role just to backpedal from it and come to a conclusion that you are mafia. It just doesn't make any sense at all to go through all that just to start bussing a teammate.

Ht did that to out a cop imo.

Then she busses her teammate expecting to go down and to get reactions just like this.

I expect big plays with mafia like that where she should be yeeted, to try and set up some wifom on a teammate. To let them carry or to clear suspicion when she goes down .

So basically this analysis is wrong in my opinion.

[DarthPunk]

Who called you mafia for that?

An why would you want to give me space when you heavily scumread me?

Because people asked me to after our first go around. And it’s just nicer for me you and everyone if we shit up the thread less.

I still want to lim you. I still think you are mafia but us just arguing is hardly a pro town endeavour.

Also I think you are mafia so I don’t think there is any point in arguing or discussing with you why you are mafia.

Ok, I can agree to not shitting up the thread, at least.

btw, what is your main reason for thinking I'm scum? Just so everyone is clear. Summarise it as briefly as you can.

No.

I have gone over this again and again and it’s late.

You of all people should know why

I don’t know why people can’t just iso me and find out, it’s like they aren’t bothering to read the game properly.

You've talked so much shit, I'm genuinely not sure what your main point against me is.

Yes, I could Iso you and see your case, but that's not what I'm asking for. If you truly scumread me, then spill your heart now and say it. What is your

number one reason

for scumreading me that everyone should be aware of, above all else?

You lied to scum read Dunn.

[DarthPunk]

Who called you mafia for that?

An why would you want to give me space when you heavily scumread me?

Because people asked me to after our first go around. And it’s just nicer for me you and everyone if we shit up the thread less.

I still want to lim you. I still think you are mafia but us just arguing is hardly a pro town endeavour.

Also I think you are mafia so I don’t think there is any point in arguing or discussing with you why you are mafia.

Ok, I can agree to not shitting up the thread, at least.

btw, what is your main reason for thinking I'm scum? Just so everyone is clear. Summarise it as briefly as you can.

No.

I have gone over this again and again and it’s late.

You of all people should know why

I don’t know why people can’t just iso me and find out, it’s like they aren’t bothering to read the game properly.

You've talked so much shit,

I'm genuinely not sure what your main point against me is.

Yes, I could Iso you and see your case, but that's not what I'm asking for. If you truly scumread me, then spill your heart now and say it. What is your

number one reason

for scumreading me that everyone should be aware of, above all else?

Please don’t get on a high horse about toxicity and behaviour standards when you say stuff like that and can’t be bothered to read or even remember the case I spent days arguing with you about.

You haven’t even written a case on why I am mafia you are just saying it over and over.

[DarthPunk]

Anyway I’m off to bed after another unpleasant evening.

[DarthPunk]

Can you read it again and actually understand the posts before you make a conclusion. I know it is dense, but I find it supremely unfair that you basically don't understand what is happening and then are drawing and sharing a conclusion about it.

Like I really don't know how I am supposed to defend myself against that when you can't understand the case and then call me mafia for the case you don't understand...

That's pretty fucking poor form from grack, you can take him firmly out of my town read section based on that alone.

Frankly, you need to tone it down and cool off.

This kind of rhetoric is not helpful to town. You're brow-beating us with this. I understand being frustrated but I don't understand not realizing that this kind of rhetoric makes people not want to both talk to you or even play this game.

Tell me this: is it a scum tactic to brow-beat people and intimidate them into shutting up? If so, then why are YOU employing the tactic? That's not a rhetorical question. I want an answer.

Oh to the last part. Doing that is normal as both alignments imo. Case in point, Luca and I have been doing that to each other and we can’t both be mafia.

I haven't been doing it. I've only got a little heated with players who, as I've said, have been ganging up on me for days, and shouting me down at every turn.

For you, this is seemingly a part of your strategy, as you've done it consistently throughout the game to anyone who opposes you, along with your little sidekick, Oats.

The last part is not true btw. I have been opposed by several people without the pages and pages of nonsenses
And I am clearly trying not to do it with you but the more I try to disengage the more you try to engage with me and then call me out for it.

Like I literally told You several times I didn’t want to argue with you anymore and I didn’t want to shit up the thread and then you directly call on me to interact with you again, over and over and then you say that it is part of my strategy.

Its actually madness

[DarthPunk]

Who called you mafia for that?

An why would you want to give me space when you heavily scumread me?

Because people asked me to after our first go around. And it’s just nicer for me you and everyone if we shit up the thread less.

I still want to lim you. I still think you are mafia but us just arguing is hardly a pro town endeavour.

Also I think you are mafia so I don’t think there is any point in arguing or discussing with you why you are mafia.

Ok, I can agree to not shitting up the thread, at least.

btw, what is your main reason for thinking I'm scum? Just so everyone is clear. Summarise it as briefly as you can.

No.

I have gone over this again and again and it’s late.

You of all people should know why

I don’t know why people can’t just iso me and find out, it’s like they aren’t bothering to read the game properly.

You've talked so much shit, I'm genuinely not sure what your main point against me is.

Yes, I could Iso you and see your case, but that's not what I'm asking for. If you truly scumread me, then spill your heart now and say it. What is your

number one reason

for scumreading me that everyone should be aware of, above all else?

You lied to scum read Dunn.

And the lie was....?

I just want full clarity here, so save any confusion.

Read my iso.

Goodnight

[DarthPunk]

Spoiler:

Ugh, its impossible to engage with you when you literally twist and lie about everything.

Here is the progression and I know you are going to have some lies about why this is not really the truth, but for everyone else THIS IS REALLY THE TRUTH.

1.) you hard agree with ninja's post. and say 'reflects my thoughts on the game almost entirely' with the exception implied being the oats read

499 is brilliant - it reflects my thoughts on the game almost entirely, and offers many insights that I had not yet considered. I've seen scum act far worse than oats this game (perhaps I'm desensitised to rudeness at this point) so I don't necessarily agree that he's town just for being rude, but I generally feel as though his play has been proactive and his pushes haven't lacked conviction. I need to catch up more but will review this slot again.

The read progression on Darth Punk is very natural. I really like the analysis of Dunn and the bit about trying to trap scum into being more active - that puts to rest one of the slight doubts I had after Dann's case highlighted such posts, and I read the passion behind these comments as being sincere. The analysis of Gob and Roden is spot on as well. I was pretty null on Gob before reading this post, but I'm definitely leaning scum on him now following some of the observations made here. I also resonate with the mixed reaction to Vivax - so far I have disagreed or seen flaws in much of what he has said, and yet something about his style of play makes me naturally want to townread him. I will be sure to review Vivax later as well.

Both Dann and Ninja are clear town reads at this point.

2.)Outoforder and I Discuss concerns with the basic failures of logically consistency in that exact post and raise the issue that it 'reflects your thoughts on the game almost entirely' because you have failed to identify and consider the issues in Ninja's post

- I can understand your take on Ninja / Roden, however do you think just making a big post makes her town? I mean like... it shouldnt, and i don't see any more reasoning there other than she made a big post.

Well I liked that ninja said she was trying to do something with the activity stuff in that post. I do have a soft spot for big effort posts though.

Also do you have any read on Luca Blight and/or Vivax?
As Ninja is your town read, do you think she can have that kind of confidence in her read on Luca, if you can't have a read on Luca? Why?

I liked the last post Luca made about ninja's post, other than that I don't have much thought. Vivax has been making posts that seem weird to me but I wrote it off as playstyle differences.

And sure I don't have to agree with everything someone says to think they are town. I often don't.

Of course you dont, i wouldnt hold that against you.

But like, we've expressed some concerns in Ninja's post (with DP). Like... if Ninja posts like that (makes big posts with a lot of effort) as town, i wouldnt think she would act differently as mafia. For the posters who make wall of texts, it's often small nuances that give them out -- as you can look reasonable by posting 90% truth about other players as long as your vote ends up on someone who isnt mafia.

What we were discussing was:
- Ninja placed Dann on town pile for reasons she probably shouldnt (the real reasons came after she did that)
- Ninja placed Luca in "conf town" position but the reasoning in her post didn't include what she actually said makes Luca "conf town"
- Ninja called me out for conf bias, when that "conf bias" actually meant that i shouldnt know i am town

I find these to be those kind of small nuances that

could make her mafia

. I am not sure of it, but it's definitely something to look into imo.

In a similar sense, in case Ninja is actually town, Luca's "100% agree to that post" doesn't look good to me, because there is DEFINITELY stuff you should not agree with. It's just very easy thing to say as mafia in case you know it's actually a townie who wrote that post.

3.) Dunn agrees with the good point because it was.

What we were discussing was:
- Ninja placed Dann on town pile for reasons she probably shouldnt (the real reasons came after she did that)
- Ninja placed Luca in "conf town" position but the reasoning in her post didn't include what she actually said makes Luca "conf town"
- Ninja called me out for conf bias, when that "conf bias" actually meant that i shouldnt know i am town

I didn't have a problem with Ninja's read on Dann. They talk about how they missed the post and then talked about their reads after.
Looking back at 499 they do seem to point to a Luca post they liked and explain their read.
And I don't see where they talk about confirmation bias regarding you.

In a similar sense, in case Ninja is actually town, Luca's "100% agree to that post" doesn't look good to me, because there is DEFINITELY stuff you should not agree with. It's just very easy thing to say as mafia in case you know it's actually a townie who wrote that post.

This is a good point.

4.) Much later Luca uses out of context snips of quotes and completely fabricates the historical narrative when ostensibly he is supposed to be 'sorting' implying an open mind.

I just Iso'd Naerys and got absolutely nothing from it.

I'm looking through Dunn's posts now (I'm not finished yet), and I really don't feel great about how he began the game, talking mainly about theory and hardly engaging with anything else. I also didn't like this:

In a similar sense, in case Ninja is actually town, Luca's "100% agree to that post" doesn't look good to me, because there is DEFINITELY stuff you should not agree with. It's just very easy thing to say as mafia in case you know it's actually a townie who wrote that post.

This is a good point.

Because it wasn't a good point, in fact outoforder misread my post as I explicitly said that i disagreed with ninja on things such as the reasoning behind her oats read, and I would expect Dunn, as careful as he has been in this game, to pick up on that if he was genuinely trying to read me in this situation. Especially when Dunn mentioned/implied he only comments on posts he finds worthy. He also does nothing with this - it leads nowhere, and is never mentioned or referenced again, so he couldn't have believed it was that good a point.

It was a good point though.

It can't be a good point when it's provably wrong.

5. Luca is mafia

Here is DP's case on you Luca.
In this case DP says:
- you hard agree with ninja's post. and say

'reflects my thoughts on the game almost entirely'

with the exception implied being the oats read
- multiple people discuss the points Ninja made in her post, and point out there are points why the post shouldn't be agreed with, namely me, DP, Dunnstral at least
- we discuss on how it could make you mafia (before DP's case), that you

agree with the post almost entirely

, why that is possibly a scummy thing to do, because any townie should not do that
- you counter that point with

[...]"outoforder misread my post as I explicitly said that i disagreed with ninja on things such as the reasoning behind her oats read"

Now this is not the point we were discussing. We were discussing entirely other parts of that post. I mean like

'reflects my thoughts on the game almost entirely'

cannot really be considered ONLY as

"i disagreed with ninja on things such as the reasoning behind her oats read"

. It's just simply an "over-townread" on Ninja regarding the situation without better explanation on this. It is true that you are not explicitly "lying", but you have to understand if you say

'reflects my thoughts on the game

almost entirely

'

, you just cannot brush off the other discrepancies of the post just because you had one different read. Which i can fairly see DP thinks you are doing.

You did the similar thing a few times before also.
You literally said:

I don't resonate with Roden's level of conviction at all here, nor do I think he really believes it himself.

Although it wouldn't surprise me if Oats/Roden is S/S - this whole interaction feels contrived to me.

A bit after that you even enforce the statement with this:

It's also the second time a seemingly passive player has burst into life and suddenly gone ultra-aggressive, which as I said earlier I read as more likely to come from scum who are having a hard time blending it otherwise and feel the need to create waves.

Doing so against a partner would be a safer route of achieving this.

Outoforder at least comes across as Townie to some extent, which I'm not seeing from Roden yet.

And after this you are questioning Oats on his read or non-read on gob.

What am i supposed to think??? You give every single piece of clue that you're scumreading both Roden and Oats, just to later on say that you didn't do so and you have never said so.
Again, yeah you are not explicitly lying, but whatever you posted in the thread between there that sure seems like that's the thought you had in your head.

Same thing again with your read on Roden as full. You call him out on being defensive, aggressive and potentially power wolfing (i dont care who said that first, you basically did call him out on that). When i question you on "how does being defensive or aggressive make anyone mafia?", you say you never said those things, it was Roden who brought it up. It's very very twisted how you build your posts just to backtrack on them -- again, by not lying, but you give the impression you DEFINITELY think something, and when it's called out you have a way to back off of it. Like here:

I am not saying inconsistencies are purely a mafia trait. Regarding Luca's town reads, i don't understand why he posts 5 town reads while saying he doesn't want to post town reads too early,

and also while thinking both Roden and Oats are mafia. Is that his best use of time, rather than idk.. questioning his scumreads or something?

And also when he does that, why does he want Oats to discuss gob??? Like the best situation interaction-wise a townie can get to, is to make mafia tell why another mafia is mafia.

Same here with Dann's comment on Dunstrall. It's very easy to see what Dann sees. There is a lot of content in the game so far. Why does Dunstrall think discussing lurkers is the most interesting point of discussion at the time?

You seem to massively contradict yourself from one sentence to another, unless I just don't understand what you're saying here.

I also don't have a strong SR on Oats and never have - just his interaction with Roden seemed off to me. I do, however, read Roden as scum independently.

You seem to be making out like I'm throwing all my chips on Oats and Roden being partners, which isn't the case at all. You're overblowing everything I've said.

Spoiler:

I don't resonate with Roden's level of conviction at all here, nor do I think he really believes it himself.

Although it wouldn't surprise me if Oats/Roden is S/S - this whole interaction feels contrived to me.

You literally said this, so i don't know what else to think other than you seem to be thinking they are or could be mafia with each other.
If you don't believe they are mafia together at this point, why say so?

It was my initial reaction to the interaction. I even used the expression 'it wouldn't surprise me', so why are you trying to frame this as me being convinced that they are scum partners?

This is why I don't think your recent analysis is in good faith - I could see where you were coming from with your opening push, but now it feels like you're nitpicking anything to justify maintaining your read on me.

Please don't do this if youre town. I am trying to understand why you are coming to the conclusions and why you feel the need to post what you post.
I already said i can see your PoV from town perspective regarding Oats/Roden. I also think

it's possible

you are coming from town PoV regarding Dann.
However, you cannot just take one part of a case that's wrong and

because of that only

, try to brush the whole thing away. That's something i find scummy tbh. Take one part of the case where you know you are right and discredit everything else because of it. That's not how it works. I'm here to figure out yours and everyone's alignment, and i am pressing things that i feel like are alignment indicative. If something was not, it doesn't mean the person is not mafia, especially when there are other things that concern me on that person.

I haven't brushed anything away - I literally just said i understood where you were going from initially, which is why I made an effort to present my reads in a more transparent way.

Now i would still like you to explain how:
- If you don't "normally" solve by giving townreads at the time, then what made you think to post them just because i said you're not solving (after all that's not even what i meant)?

If you don't think that's good town play for you, why did you decide to do it

, if you're not sure of yourself to give those reads at any level of confidence at that time? Just because i am voting for you, should not be a reason. If someone asked me to do things i don't find helpful doing as town, i wouldn't do it. Why would i?

I've answered that already, and once again just above.

- If the above is something you did as town, why do you think Roden is mafia partly because he is being "defensive"? Because i would say the above there is way more "scummy defensive" than what Roden did towards Oats. Like if you believe being defensive is a scummy trait, wouldn't you consider yourself defensive towards my accusation (when there should be no reason for you to be defensive in your mind -- unless

you actually think you are not solving the game

, which you shouldn't as town)

The problem is that you're not reading properly.

I never specifically said Roden was scummy for being defensive, although I do think entering the thread purely to defend yourself is quite scummy, which is what happened initially.

What I said was that most of the things Roden accused oat of, including defensiveness, had also been displayed by Roden himself.

Nowhere have I ever said that being defensive automatically equals scum, because that would be ridiculous. I'm not sure why this even needs to be explained, as it should be obvious?

Like in that post you literally contradicted yourself in one sentence.

Basically, at best you are not doing very good job at being clear in what you think and how it reflects into the thread.

When you are called out for your literal words you have written in this game, you say they meant something else.

That's a big problem to me.

And when he does this to then use as a justification to misyeet a townie when he should be sorting with an open mind -that- becomes pure mafia.

[DarthPunk]

Town: OOO, Hu Tao, Ninja
Lean town: Oats, gob, Dann, Naerys
Null:

Naerys

Mafia: Luca, Grack, Dp

This is still my view of the game. But DP's argument on why Naerys spewed herself town was good so I'm upgrading her to lean town.
I saw zero reasons for deviating from this save for a shower of arguments between DP and Luca.

In terms of people I could be wrong on being town, it could be Oats and Dann but currently I don't want to second guess my thoughts I formed after reviewing D1.

Luca and Ninja scum together seems impossible to me. They work together too obviously when it comes to derailing the thread.

How is it reasonable for me to mafia with Luca here.

[DarthPunk]

yeah wait lol dp/luca make sense

How?

[DarthPunk]

Luca only considers people who call him mafia.

[DarthPunk]

VOTE: luca

I’m here for now, I need to read gob and ooo’s case again.

[DarthPunk]

Dann do you think Luca is town/mafia after all that?

I’d just like to hear if your position has changed or not pretty much.

[DarthPunk]

so here's the thing that bugging me about the whole teamliquid crew, but specifically keeps drawing me back to oatsmaster as scum:

the whole group seem to be pretty highly focused on being correct and consistent, and that being incorrect and/or having inconsistencies in your posts is a sign of scum. I'm not going to argue for or against that, just trying to establish a pattern I'm seeing as it informs my read of oatsmaster right now.

Okay, so, given that the basis for most of their scum cases are centered around the idea of "X contradicted himself" or "Y said this and then later said that instead" (I'm simplifying here I know but bear with me please), it would seem to me that any scum players in the TL group might try extra hard not to fall into the trap of making one of these mistakes and getting cased for it. Yeah?

"But, Dann!" I hear you saying "Don't town players try to stay consistent and appear towny too?" Well, yes. That's probably true. BUT, I think mafia who think like this are more likely to post in an inorganic matter in order to avoid entrapping themselves. They are going to be *more* conscious of making sure they don't show any inconsistencies and as such might post in an... awkward way to avoid it.

Alright let’s gooo

Is this a no for you?

I checked the possible roles and I’m 95% sure that cop checks can’t be altered

And, I have to say, this post just reads like someone who is trying not to incriminate themselves. Like, I don't know why it's more natural for any towny to say this than just "no." I really feel like Oats was preparing to call Hu Tao scum if they had anything but a straight up cop guilty, and I feel like this phrasing contains some fear from Oats that Hu Tao might have some result that isn't a cop check.

Like, what is the point of calling out cop checks specifically here?

It also gives Oats an out of being able to be like "Oh, yeah there's something that would explain a Watcher result or a Tracker result, I thought we were talking about COP CHECKS"

Guilty = cop

Then there's this reassertion that Hu Tao could have only been claiming a cop guilty, which honestly just makes very little sense. On this website, there are basically 0 normal roles that can affect a cop guilty. It sounds like TL Mafia Games are even lower powered. So in that case, why on earth would Hu Tao ask if anyone had anything to explain first if they were waiting on a cop guilty?

It really just feels like Oats was worried that Hu Tao had something incriminating that wasn't a straight up Cop, and Oats wanted to entrap Hu Tao into the narrative of having a cop guilty, so he could win the potential 1v1 if needed.

*****

anyway what I'm trying to say here is I think this is the case of someone trying not to incriminate themselves and as such their posting comes off as very awkward for it

and i think that's just more likely to come from scum

VOTE: oatsmaster

I like the analysis of the tl group play style. I think that is right and I’m glad you are trying to adjust to us and be accurate.

I just don’t really see what about that case makes oats mafia.

[DarthPunk]

gun to head i think luca is town

Do you think the same things that myself and ooo have noticed are untrue? not alignment indicative?

[DarthPunk]

Town: OOO, Hu Tao, Ninja

i think this is a pretty solid top town tier and as such I want to say vivax is also town

for other reasons too but i think this is a cute reason

Can you expand on the other reasons cause i am having trouble reading his slot with his wild scum teams.

[DarthPunk]

also getting to the point where it just feels like gob is mimicking a caricature of himself

So mafia?

[DarthPunk]

Town: OOO, Hu Tao, Ninja

i think this is a pretty solid top town tier and as such I want to say vivax is also town

for other reasons too but i think this is a cute reason

Can you expand on the other reasons cause i am having trouble reading his slot with his wild scum teams.

Part of it *is* his wild scum teams? I feel like Vivax is operating in his own world and isn't really tuned in to what everyone thinks the most likely teams are. I think he would have to be as scum. I think he'd more conscious about making sure his scum teams made sense.

D1, I don't really understand why he'd start out white knighting Roden and then start to reevaluate him towards end of day (before he claimed). I think it would've been way more straightforward to just stick with the white knighting since it's not like Vivax's support was needed for Roden to get pushed to claim

See one of the things I really value when determining alignments is "can I understand this persons perspective on the game, and can I see they are thinking about the game in a way that makes sense for town."

This is why HT looks bad to me for example. Cause I need her posts to make sense to me, so when she agrees with a post that a Town!HT doesn't agree with, I wonder why she is not thinking like a townie should.

Vivax gets a bit more leeway because his reads often do not make sense to me as either alignment.

I am not sure vivax cares if his scum teams make sense as mafia either (at least he didn't last time I played with him and he was mafia)

[DarthPunk]

I can yeet gob for never trying to make sense.
But that‘s about my only reason, I think the derp is more often town but I can‘t know it for sure.

And Ninja it‘s not that Luca is the only one forcing himself through unpleasantries but rather that he acted as if Oats was his only concern there (maybe cause he‘s so obstinate which takes away all energy from scum.)

I want to lim into gob/luca/HT

[DarthPunk]

Town: OOO, Hu Tao, Ninja

i think this is a pretty solid top town tier and as such I want to say vivax is also town

for other reasons too but i think this is a cute reason

Can you expand on the other reasons cause i am having trouble reading his slot with his wild scum teams.

Dann might take your place if he doesn‘t explain the gun to head.
Still don‘t see what would make Grack townish. He contributes nicely but that he also does as mafia. As town he‘s less performative from what I remember and doesn‘t shy away from the occasional shitpost.

What do you think of Dann's case on oats?

[DarthPunk]

Dann, doesn't your case on oats kind of rely on HT being town though.

If HT is mafia what does that mean about oats?

and if Oats is town what does that do to the rest of your reads.

[DarthPunk]

well there is no reason for gob to be town imo.

Shall we yeet him?

VOTE: gob

[DarthPunk]

Look ill just come out and say it

The whole part of the game focusing on Luca Blight, Oats, Vibax and NinjaGirl is SHITE. Its so impossible to keep track and follow that groups reads on eachothers. It also doesnt help its hyper bloated.


Someone give me the rundown in a paragraph. If it cant be condensed in a paragraph, we need to move on from that whole conversation and history entirely.

In my opinion

Gob why did you leave my name off of here when you are having me in your lynch pool since day 1?

[DarthPunk]

I think grack has sounded townie tonally when he is around. I kind of don't like that he disappeared when I pressured his read on me though.

He could just be busy IRL or something I guess.

[DarthPunk]

Vivax why is gob town?

[DarthPunk]

we were talking about your scum reads there

DarthPunk spent great part of the entire day arguing with Luca and about Luca and now he settles for gob?
I know he may reply that he's trying to not get tunneled but he's treading into lack of conviction territory with this, which is already what I accused him for from reading his D1.

I think he is mafia, that should be very clear, but we have heaps of time left and I am not just going to spend all that time with a vote parked on Luca, with no chance of a lim anytime soon and not use my vote to pressure my other scum reads.

If this was a 48 hour day like we were used to then that is different, but we have 4 or 5 days left, I am not just going to only focus on one player with that much time to do other stuff.

I will hammer luca as soon as its a realistic proposition.

[DarthPunk]

Vivax why is gob town?

Because I think Luca fits more checkboxes for typical mafia.
Gob is just a sore thumb, not someone really blending in.

do you not think he should be held to account for what his reads are/ what he says?

What does town!gob get from playing this way?

[DarthPunk]

I think Dannfloor is mafia. They don't seem to be solving much at all.

Can you explain why you said this gob?

why do you think dann is not solving, do you think they are still mafia?

[DarthPunk]

I think Dannfloor is mafia. They don't seem to be solving much at all.

Can you explain why you said this gob?

why do you think dann is not solving, do you think they are still mafia?

He could be. Feels very detached from the game right now, as if it bothered him to be here was my impression.
I sense a lack of an intention to communicate with the town.

Maybe It's

Grack/Luca/Dann
DP/Luca/Dann
DP/Luca/Grack

and so on.

Thats fine vivax. but you have different reasons to gob right, so lets interrogate gob's reasons, and you think he is town so clearly this would be a good opportunity for gob to prove it.

Vivax do you think it is a fair representation of Dann's play that he is not solving?

[DarthPunk]

TOWN
Luca
Darth
Dannflor
Hu Tao
OOO
Vivax

SCUM
Grack
Gob
Naerys
Oats

That's where I am. Gonna spend my mafia time on deep diving the votes and reads lists of those four, see if anything sticks out, see what team makes sense, if any team of 3 emerges.

I feel pretty confident in those town reads and have basically no interest in pushing a yeet on any of those town reads today, I think. Something awfully drastic would need to happen. But my reads feel pretty converged into this state.

If anyone gives a hoot. lol

you should vote gob with me then.

[DarthPunk]

I think Dannfloor is mafia. They don't seem to be solving much at all.

Can you explain why you said this gob?

why do you think dann is not solving, do you think they are still mafia?

He could be. Feels very detached from the game right now, as if it bothered him to be here was my impression.
I sense a lack of an intention to communicate with the town.

Maybe It's

Grack/Luca/Dann
DP/Luca/Dann
DP/Luca/Grack

and so on.

Thats fine vivax. but you have different reasons to gob right, so lets interrogate gob's reasons, and you think he is town so clearly this would be a good opportunity for gob to prove it.

Vivax do you think it is a fair representation of Dann's play that he is not solving?

That's probably a blunt way of saying that he doesn't apply the same motivation to do what he was able to do during the last time gob saw him being town in a game with him.

If so, I trust the assessment especially when Dannflor doesn't bother to counter it.

Well dann thinks he is mafia, so I guess that is a counter?

[DarthPunk]

oats, thoughts on a gob lim?

[DarthPunk]

VOTE: oatsmaster

?

[DarthPunk]

VOTE: oatsmaster

This vote is kinda scummy when you were just saying gob was mafia.

It’s like you‘re white knighting your scumread when Oats pushes them.

agree.

[DarthPunk]

See vivax this is why you move your vote around.

[DarthPunk]

Dann can you explain that vote swap?

[DarthPunk]

2.6

DarthPunk (4) :

Grackaroni / Luca Blight / Hu Tao / gob

[Exe-2]

Gob (4) :

Naerys / outoforder / DarthPunk / Dannflor

[Exe-2]

Luca Blight (2) :

oatsmaster / Vivax

Oatsmaster (1) :

SuperfluousNinja

Not Voting (0):

With 11 Alive, it takes 6 to secure an execution.

Day Two ends in (expired on 2024-02-18 14:43:52)

Mod Notes

.

This VC lol

Both DP and gob should be able to extract lots of info from this

Well its my whole scum team on me pretty much + grack, classic scum v town wagon.

[DarthPunk]

2.6

DarthPunk (4) :

Grackaroni / Luca Blight / Hu Tao / gob

[Exe-2]

Gob (4) :

Naerys / outoforder / DarthPunk / Dannflor

[Exe-2]

Luca Blight (2) :

oatsmaster / Vivax

Oatsmaster (1) :

SuperfluousNinja

Not Voting (0):

With 11 Alive, it takes 6 to secure an execution.

Day Two ends in (expired on 2024-02-18 14:43:52)

Mod Notes

.

This VC lol

Both DP and gob should be able to extract lots of info from this

Well its my whole scum team on me pretty much + grack, classic scum v town wagon.

Do you TR Luca now ?

no. he is on me. Scum team is Luca/ht/gob that is my wagon + grack.

[DarthPunk]

Had a brain fart there and thought Luca was elsewhere.
At least I can bin the Grack + you scenario now. If he was bussing he would have unbussed by now.

Gob, what do you say?
Should I vote you?

I’m going to bet he says no.

[DarthPunk]

Ergo Dannflor is mafia, cause he ignores that, votes Oats, but still should rather vote DP if he was town adhering to his stated beliefs.
The gob vote was a distancing attempt.

Do you think dann could fake the introspection and adjustment to his approach with the TL players this game?

I found that really townie to be honest.

[DarthPunk]

2.6

DarthPunk (4) :

Grackaroni / Luca Blight / Hu Tao / gob

[Exe-2]

Gob (4) :

Naerys / outoforder / DarthPunk / Dannflor

[Exe-2]

Luca Blight (2) :

oatsmaster / Vivax

Oatsmaster (1) :

SuperfluousNinja

Not Voting (0):

With 11 Alive, it takes 6 to secure an execution.

Day Two ends in (expired on 2024-02-18 14:43:52)

Mod Notes

.

This VC lol

Both DP and gob should be able to extract lots of info from this

Well its my whole scum team on me pretty much + grack, classic scum v town wagon.

Do you TR Luca now ?

no. he is on me. Scum team is Luca/ht/gob that is my wagon + grack.

I've hardly ever seen all 3 scum vote together.

Unless that's a thing on your site

That's true, but isn't that exactly why its a good idea to do it as mafia? I prefer not to think too hard about shit like this until after a flip, before then I just want to lim my strongest scum reads.

[DarthPunk]

2.6

DarthPunk (4) :

Grackaroni / Luca Blight / Hu Tao / gob

[Exe-2]

Gob (4) :

Naerys / outoforder / DarthPunk / Dannflor

[Exe-2]

Luca Blight (2) :

oatsmaster / Vivax

Oatsmaster (1) :

SuperfluousNinja

Not Voting (0):

With 11 Alive, it takes 6 to secure an execution.

Day Two ends in (expired on 2024-02-18 14:43:52)

Mod Notes

.

This VC lol

Both DP and gob should be able to extract lots of info from this

Well its my whole scum team on me pretty much + grack, classic scum v town wagon.

Do you TR Luca now ?

no. he is on me. Scum team is Luca/ht/gob that is my wagon + grack.

I've hardly ever seen all 3 scum vote together.

Unless that's a thing on your site

That's true, but isn't that exactly why its a good idea to do it as mafia? I prefer not to think too hard about shit like this until after a flip, before then I just want to lim my strongest scum reads.

Who is your top scumread?

Who do you think it is?

[DarthPunk]

Ergo Dannflor is mafia, cause he ignores that, votes Oats, but still should rather vote DP if he was town adhering to his stated beliefs.
The gob vote was a distancing attempt.

Do you think dann could fake the introspection and adjustment to his approach with the TL players this game?

I found that really townie to be honest.

Eh I find that pretty nai because it’s a neutral way of observing the game. How we play has nothing to do with our alignment. At least with what he described.

Why can't he just join in with Luca and yell at me and mislim me if he is mafia, Like he definitely could have done that and chose to re-evaluate.

[DarthPunk]

Ergo Dannflor is mafia, cause he ignores that, votes Oats, but still should rather vote DP if he was town adhering to his stated beliefs.
The gob vote was a distancing attempt.

Do you think dann could fake the introspection and adjustment to his approach with the TL players this game?

I found that really townie to be honest.

I don't know about that but he should form the two following thoughts:

Are these wagons town on town?
He voted gob previously so clearly he doesn't think that.

If he thought gob was mafia, why vote Oats who was just coming around to vote gob (unless he assumed that was a setup for a bus)?

If Oats isn't bussing he can only be partnered with you, so if he thinks gob is the mafia being wagoned, how can he ever suspect Oats for prepping a vote on him?

I'd like to see dann's response to this.

[DarthPunk]

I'd like to see what grack thinks at this point too.

[DarthPunk]

It strikes me that gob really wants to survive more than solve in this game.

[DarthPunk]

I'm more than happy to hammer Gob when the time comes, FYI.

Can you tell me what you thought of my summary of Nearys from a while ago, I see you still have her as mafia and I don't think that is right.

[DarthPunk]

viewtopic.php?p=14086199#p14086199

I don't know how to link to posts.

[DarthPunk]

Got it. I see it now.

Re: the first point about Luca being "defensive" in response to Hu Tao's gambit, that's not entirely accurate. Here's the first thing Luca said after Hu Tao suggested they had a guilty:

Why are people voting me when Hu Tao said she has a guilty on someone?

I'm going to be busy most of today so won't be around much.

Even though he's referring to himself, the intent here seems to be a lot more about why people are starting a wagon when we anticipate an investigator guilty read later. And that's a totally legitimate question to ask.

As for the stuff about Naerys not knowing everything that happened with Roden, yes, that makes her less likely to be scum. If anything, I would have expected her to talk to her teammates overnight where all the relevant game info would be discussed. But we can't rule out the possibility that she's playing some 4D chess with us and intentionally acting like she has no idea what is going on in order to make us feel this way. But like...I admit that's less likely.

My scum pool is Naerys / Gob / Grack / Oats. Obviously I'm wrong about at least 1 of them. Naerys is the only one of the four voting for someone else in that pool, so based on votes alone, that certainly suggests that she's the one I'm wrong about here.

Have you iso'd your scum reads?

[DarthPunk]

Grack and vivax saying I do t believe in my read or whatever.

This is me being heavily restrained in my interactions compared to what they are used to. (To be nice as a guest)

I think they are misreading that as lack of belief or whatever.

I don't think you've been as heavily restrained as you think you have.

well definitely not with you, but with the others I have.

[DarthPunk]

Grackaroni can you explain to me why your case on DP makes him mafia?
Because i know if i was mafia i would definitely, in his position, get rid of (or try to) Luca rather than Dunn, since it has already been shown that Luca can and will articulate and at least tries to defend himself (aka has a higher chance of getting townread than Dunnstral). Just "he can continue pushing Luca D2 and that's why he joined Dunn lynch" is not good enough. DP is better than that, he would most likely look much better (being consistent) if he just kept his vote on Luca instead of swapping -- and he would most likely be able to make that prediction as mafia at EoD1.

I'm not going to argue over what I think the ideal play would be for DP to make as mafia. My only goal is to judge whether his posts make sense from a town point of view.

The confidence he feels in his case based off Luca 'lying' about whether the point about his post was good doesn't vibe with me. I could get behind Luca's Dunnstral vote as being a forced read and a bad justification for a vote, but then just write that outright in two sentences rather than writing out this whole history about Ninja's post as irrefutable evidence of Luca being scum and that Luca is trying to cover up this incontrovertible evidence. I feel the reasoning behind this has come almost entirely from you and is the kind of thing you would normally tend to tunnel on.

I realized while re-reading through DP's ISO that I misinterpreted his vote post. In his post he said he had legit reasons to yeet both of them when replying to you asking him to yeet Dunnstral, but he was actually referring to Hu Tao/Luca in the post before that, so that refutes the largest part of the contradiction that I wrote about yesterday

.

Does this change your read.

As to the first part, my case was my own, I guess I didn't articulate it was well as OOO did. but it definately came from me, cause the dunn thing bothered me as soon as I saw it in the thread.

[DarthPunk]

Grack and vivax saying I do t believe in my read or whatever.

This is me being heavily restrained in my interactions compared to what they are used to. (To be nice as a guest)

I think they are misreading that as lack of belief or whatever.

I don't think you've been as heavily restrained as you think you have.

well definitely not with you, but with the others I have.

I'm not bothered - it's just half the player base is saying this has been the most hostile unpleasant game that they've been a part of and you're like... you haven't seen anything yet!!!!

Its true tho, me or OOO in full flight is actually wild.

[DarthPunk]

Luca are you calling me town now in those posts?

[DarthPunk]

Ergo Dannflor is mafia, cause he ignores that, votes Oats, but still should rather vote DP if he was town adhering to his stated beliefs.
The gob vote was a distancing attempt.

Do you think dann could fake the introspection and adjustment to his approach with the TL players this game?

I found that really townie to be honest.

Yes, Dann is town, and I'm starting to think Darth might be as well based on his recent play.

So Luca flips back onto dann is town without referencing his previous “fears” about dann as soon as dann stops pushing Luca. It seems to me that Luca realizes that he can easily get off of darth here, I’m really baffled at how he’s so confident in dp being mafia before he’s willing to completely tank the game by saying yeet dp and if dp is town yeet Luca if Luca is town but now he’s like nah I’m good based on “recent” posting

Good post.

[DarthPunk]

I think if Oats is town then atleast one of Dann/Luca is scum

Both outcomes here, where Oats is town and one of Dann / Luca is scum, are really unlikely. Oats has just been antagonizing people and playing defensively all game long, doing little if anything to help us converge our reads and lessen the chaos. I would say both Dann and Luca have done the exact opposite; they've put a lot of effort into solving things, showed flexibility, admitted to faults (this last one is a BIG one to me), and both seem to be working as a team with town as a whole (rather than just one or two people).

BTW my shower thought this morning, why's this game called Mafia? Are mafiosos known for being sneaky and deceptive? Pretty sure if they want someone gone, they just blow his kneecaps out and drop him into a river and be done with it.

This is super duper icky post, once again.... Idk if to just yeet that.

You can’t write off ninja as town imo especially if you think Luca is town.

She is hard to read cause her emotional congruence when she gets agitated looks really townie but I’m wondering if I need to look past that and see what she is doing.

The fact she scum read naerys but didn’t read my post on naerys and didn’t read her short filter and ask the questions I asked really bothered me.

She didn’t iso her mafia reads at all, which I understand to an extent but she was specifically looking at low postcount players so is it that hard?

And then wanting to yeet oats when I recall about two posts where she drew a line and called all active players town, including oats and now she is wanting to yeet a top 3 active player.

All of that has been bothering me.

[DarthPunk]

Vivax town I think

[DarthPunk]

I want to use the full time so I’m not interested in a hammer.

Oats why am I town to you the whole game?

[DarthPunk]

Vivax town I think

okay now can you explain it because I'm having a hard time imagining his thoughts as real

Yeah I can when I get to work and have a bit of time.

[DarthPunk]

Regarding Naerys, honestly she is so inactive in this game that I don't much care about any analysis in regards to her. My scum read on her was largely based on process of elimination, not because she did anything particularly scummy. I don't think she's interesting to analyze at all, really, and whatever I work out with her is going to have to be a consequence of how I read everyone else.

As for my view change on Oats, my read progression there is very, very well documented. I pressed him on a valid point and he just blew me off. It's not crazy for me to jump over to the scum side of the fence in response to that.

And as for activity levels, I guess I just can't win, because I took everyone's advice to heart and decided it was a bad strategy to use to try and find scum. Every person who had something to say to me about it said, yo, don't do it. And that includes Dunnstral, a confirmed town. So if I actually listen but now get scum read because I flip flopped or whatever, then just lol, can't please everyone I guess.

Why would you not be interested in the alignment of your scum reads?

[DarthPunk]

As for my view change on Oats, my read progression there is very, very well documented. I pressed him on a valid point and he just blew me off. It's not crazy for me to jump over to the scum side of the fence in response to that.

I answered you like 10 times about it

Oh you SAID that DP was frustrated with Luca over a "non-game-related" thing, but you never actually showed me what that was, never showed any evidence in regards to it. Saying it happened is meaningless if you can't provide any evidence of it. Everything everyone has said in this game is right there for you to quote and reference, so you have no excuse for not providing the evidence.

You want to say something and not back it up with evidence, then I throw it in the circular file. That's how it works.

He said I was annoyed about being called toxic which is a non game thing as opposed to annoyed about peoples alignment.

That's how I read it anyway.

[DarthPunk]

Oh I am interested in the alignment; I'm just not interested in analysis of Naerys herself, because there's just not enough to chew on. Whatever tools I want to use to sort someone out, I can't really use those at all on Naerys. You realize it takes like 5 minutes to read through her ISO?

My real life job is biostatistician, and in my profession, we often caution against even conducting a statistical test on anything with too little data. A conclusion based on small sample size is quite dangerous.

Thats a cool job. have you written any papers?

Mafia is not that though, we need to be able to infer probable truths from small pieces of information.

I do know her iso is really small, that is why it bothers me that you didn't

1.) read it when she was in your POE
and
2.) Notice what I did and rule her out from being mafia at least from the time being, or at least consider and dismiss it as being non-indicative of alignment.

[DarthPunk]

I'm really interested in that point that Oats raised regarding Luca, who ostensibly was so certain that they wanted a 1v1 play against me, and now is kind of backtracking and town reading me.

I don't think anything about my play has changed except I stopped hard pushing luca.

[DarthPunk]

Vivax town I think

okay now can you explain it because I'm having a hard time imagining his thoughts as real

I could see the paranoia set in when he lumped me back in a scum team with luca based on luca's change in read towards me.

That is next level play as mafia, literally, because it is going beyond the first level of "luca changed their read for bad reasons = Luca is mafia", to adding me in there as partnered together again because he thinks he is being duped by some grand mafia theatre.

I literally was asleep and hadn't posted anything at the time.

And then he like kind of gloats about correctly calling the scum team of me-luca-grack correctly at the start of the phase.

I just find that all kind of implausible to fake in the way that it developed.

And then when he is out of the paranoia zone he is doing good work, scum hunting and having clear thoughts and Idea's which I like.

I also think he picked up on something with the Us vs them dichotomy that luca and others have engaged in.

I think the townie play, is to address it in the way that you have and try to think about the perspective and habits of the other side. So i think that is a good point by vivax.

[DarthPunk]

Oh I am interested in the alignment; I'm just not interested in analysis of Naerys herself

, because there's just not enough to chew on. Whatever tools I want to use to sort someone out, I can't really use those at all on Naerys. You realize it takes like 5 minutes to read through her ISO?

My real life job is biostatistician, and in my profession, we often caution against even conducting a statistical test on anything with too little data. A conclusion based on small sample size is quite dangerous.

Can you explain this a bit more please?

[DarthPunk]

Does it bother you that I specifically did not read it after I put her in my scum pool last night? Because I have read it before. I have read it a couple times, and I remember thinking "lol what a waste of time" when I did it, so no, I didn't bother reading it again last night after she entered my pool by default.

Not to mention, I went to the gym after work, I came home, I was fucking exhausted, and I am already REALLY pushing it with my involvement in this game during the day when I'm at work, so this angle you have that you think it's suspicious that I didn't read her iso last night, it's kinda just a straight-up bad angle.

I'm not asking you to do more than you can, I am just trying to figure out your alignment by commenting on stuff that bothers me and seeing your response.

[DarthPunk]

I havent read and do not plan on reading anything recent. Vote me if you must.

How is this town?

[DarthPunk]

Oh I am interested in the alignment; I'm just not interested in analysis of Naerys herself

, because there's just not enough to chew on. Whatever tools I want to use to sort someone out, I can't really use those at all on Naerys. You realize it takes like 5 minutes to read through her ISO?

My real life job is biostatistician, and in my profession, we often caution against even conducting a statistical test on anything with too little data. A conclusion based on small sample size is quite dangerous.

Can you explain this a bit more please?

I want to know what Naerys is, whether she's scum or town. I just don't think a read of her iso is going to help me figure that out, because she just hasn't said or done enough for me to ascertain that. I need to do it by process of elimination with the others.

But she literally -did- do something that will help you ascertain her alignment, that you could find if you read her ISO.

[DarthPunk]

I havent read and do not plan on reading anything recent. Vote me if you must.

Gob how do you find mafia as town?

[DarthPunk]

If Luca is town she has blatantly been living in his pocket too. Everytime I go up against him she's there to lend him a hand.

This is kind of where I am at too.

I still think Luca is mafia, but I am doubting a bit cause of OOO thinking it's TvT.

[DarthPunk]

Oh I am interested in the alignment; I'm just not interested in analysis of Naerys herself

, because there's just not enough to chew on. Whatever tools I want to use to sort someone out, I can't really use those at all on Naerys. You realize it takes like 5 minutes to read through her ISO?

My real life job is biostatistician, and in my profession, we often caution against even conducting a statistical test on anything with too little data. A conclusion based on small sample size is quite dangerous.

Can you explain this a bit more please?

I want to know what Naerys is, whether she's scum or town. I just don't think a read of her iso is going to help me figure that out, because she just hasn't said or done enough for me to ascertain that. I need to do it by process of elimination with the others.

But she literally -did- do something that will help you ascertain her alignment, that you could find if you read her ISO.

Some

thing

. Not some

things

. Right? That's the problem, Darth. I assume you're referring to the slip-up with not knowing about Roden, and I don't see that as an alignment-indicative thing, to be honest. It could just as easily be scum playing dumb.

When drug A beats drug B once, you don't know if that was just a coincidence. When drug A beats drug B 99 times out of 100, then you're a lot more certain.

1.) Didn't you agree it was less likely to come from mafia before?

2.) we don't get to wait for those kind of sample sizes, otherwise you can never read low post count players.

[DarthPunk]

I havent read and do not plan on reading anything recent. Vote me if you must.

Gob how do you find mafia as town?

vca usually

So what are your thoughts on the game based on the wagons between you and I both at e-2 and then you and oats at e-2

[DarthPunk]

I am not even putting heat or calling you mafia or whatever Ninja, i'm just trying to figure out your thought processes and test to see if they make sense under some scrutiny.

[DarthPunk]

I havent read and do not plan on reading anything recent. Vote me if you must.

Gob how do you find mafia as town?

vca usually

So what are your thoughts on the game based on the wagons between you and I both at e-2 and then you and oats at e-2

Im moreso into solving like day 1. Bia pools.

Anyway right now to be frank; i think we need to lim some of these TL players. No offense tk you guys, but all i see is anti-town play and honestly unfun ways of communicating.
Oatsmaster i think is town, pretty strongly too. The way things have went and how against everyone he has been, at every corner, doesnt seem like mafia to me. The TL players can correct me if that is his meta. But i feel like his tone throughout the entire game has been inconsistent.

But im okay with voting him because he has been a nusanxe alongside Luca, Ninja, and some other people im forgetting.

Again no offense to any of ya’ll. We cant all get along.

So you want to lim your town read?

[DarthPunk]

1.) Didn't you agree it was less likely to come from mafia before?

Yep. Just like how Drug A can absolutely be better than Drug B in that one instance.

So are you drawing a conclusion from it or not, it seems like you are just backtracking your previous statements.

If I can just say something and then I later can say, yes but anything can be true 1 time out of 100 thenI literally aren't saying anything and don't have to be accountable for anything.

you can see the problem approaching the game like this right?

[DarthPunk]

I havent read and do not plan on reading anything recent. Vote me if you must.

Gob how do you find mafia as town?

vca usually

So what are your thoughts on the game based on the wagons between you and I both at e-2 and then you and oats at e-2

Im moreso into solving like day 1. Bia pools.

Anyway right now to be frank; i think we need to lim some of these TL players. No offense tk you guys, but all i see is anti-town play and honestly unfun ways of communicating.
Oatsmaster i think is town, pretty strongly too. The way things have went and how against everyone he has been, at every corner, doesnt seem like mafia to me. The TL players can correct me if that is his meta. But i feel like his tone throughout the entire game has been inconsistent.

But im okay with voting him because he has been a nusanxe alongside Luca, Ninja, and some other people im forgetting.

Again no offense to any of ya’ll. We cant all get along.

So you want to lim your town read?

We can lim you instead, i would prefer that

Then why aren't you trying harder to do that?

[DarthPunk]

So are you drawing a conclusion from it or not, it seems like you are just backtracking your previous statements.

Yes. I'm telling you it's a data point that makes her lean town. But it's still just one data point.

If I can just say something and then I later can say, yes but anything can be true 1 time out of 100 thenI literally aren't saying anything and don't have to be accountable for anything.

you can see the problem approaching the game like this right?

You're talking about the probability of a single event. You're worried about being able to brush off an event as a coincidence, right? Well I'm talking about the occurrence of multiple events. If you have 50 events that lean town and only 5 that lean scum, I'm going to feel pretty good deciding that person is town. You can brush off 1 or 2 events as coincidences, but when it seems to keep happening one way over and over, you are a lot less able to call it a coincidence.

Usually mafia will only slip once or twice especially if they are a strong player, one thing is enough to make someone mafia if that one thing CANNOT come from town.

[DarthPunk]

Darth, you ever think maybe there's some other reason why I didn't read an iso?

What is that reason?

I am asking you the questions because I want to know what you are thinking.

[DarthPunk]

I've been pretty clear where my reads are. I think I've been giving reads pretty consistently when asked and when not asked. I literally just gave a few reads the last few pages. That's why I think you're lying about that.

2nd I guess I understand where you can see that. But that's just how I play I catch up and sometimes I'm not around. But I don't think it's as bad as you're painting it.

By very clear I mean reasons. You don’t elaborate on why you think someone is xyz, you just say it.

I’m 90% sure that I asked you specifically about the Luca -> dp transition and what made you make that change and you never responded

In terms of Luca I felt his tone was good. He seemed genuinely frustrated by the situation. I also agreed with his reads originally that you and dp were scum

When you say originally what do you mean?

I thought she said I was town originally?

[DarthPunk]

well you would say that wouldn’t you

No, if it was a good case with something worth responding to I would happily respond.

But I don't think you have established anything in that case other than some arbitrary expectations about how I 'should' have reacted to the ninja case.

and the fact that being reasonable= mafia.

the problem I have with you is that you have already acknowledged and it should be quite clear to you that we approach the game in a radically different way, so why are you so confident with a case that boils down to: (doesn't do what I think he should do as town, therefore he is mafia)

This super long day phase is super pro town, there is no reason to dive in to a elim on Ninja when there are people who aren't even posting.

It was the correct play to not just jump on the wagon and get more information in the thread. Strictly correct even.

As to being reasonable. You should have read a post I made when you ISO'd me talking to oats about toning down our level of aggression as we are guests on the site. Being reasonable is not alignment indicative.

Lack of curiosity is, not wanting to get to the truth of peoples alignments is. Reasonableness no. In fact, on my site the opposite tends to be true.

Now the real question is, why does it seem like you are operating with an agenda, you write cases that are worse than you present them as, with a level of confidence that is not commesurate to the 'evidence' you are presenting.

It smacks of holding an agenda tbh. Are you trying to wrest thread control from the active players? Or are you mafia?

I don't see the DP scumread here Dann

[DarthPunk]

I don’t really understand why ninja is scumreading me for holding onto a view that she doesn’t agree with but is in turn holding onto a view that nobody else agrees with and that’s somehow fine? I’m referring to not realizing that naeyrs did that whole thing about the night kills.

Can you expand on this with some quotes because I don't really follow.

[DarthPunk]

Im going to re-read the last 30 pages or so. feeling pretty lost when I try to view the game through the lens of luca being town.

Probably just means he isn't town tho.

[DarthPunk]

You were already lost since you have me as scum

It’s possible.

[DarthPunk]

Im going to re-read the last 30 pages or so. feeling pretty lost when I try to view the game through the lens of luca being town.

Probably just means he isn't town tho.

try viewing it through the lens of oats/Vivax being scum.

I already considered them. I don't think that is right.

[DarthPunk]

I am just gonna blurt out everything i have thought about after yesterday. I've been able to follow the thread at work.

I think Luca vs DP is T/T. I am fairly certain of it. Both side's reasoning for other one being mafia makes sense (+ Grack on DP), but i don't think it makes either of them mafia. The more i read Luca's posts i think it just how he posts, rather than that he is trying to deceive. It looks annoying to me (i mean this with no offence) because from what i know appearing certain is a way you get the people you want on the chopping block. He did appear certain though lately, when he was willing to go 1v1 against DP, and that looked townie to me, because i don't think he thinks he can win that argument.

DP did some weird shit at the end of D1, yes. I still don't think it makes him mafia because he simply just doesn't have to do that. If there is a choice of getting rid of either Luca or Dunn D1 for him, what's the point of having a player who is defending themselves to death alive D2 over a fairly passive player? Again, being wrong doesn't make anyone mafia, and the misyeet could be easily blamed on someone else -- for instance on people who joined the wagon without much reasoning (as Luca himself said, almost everyone has thought he is scum in this game).

I also believe Ninja is town. This is more of a tone read than based on content, because i don't understand most of her point by point arguments (no offence again). I also can't place her in any mafia team in based on my reads.

Another person i think is town is Naerys. It's very hard for me to explain why i townread her. It's basically -- especially now during D2, whenever she posts it seems like there is some sort of thought going on in her head. Although i tend to have no idea what that is at each point, i think it's townie lol. ^^

I also think Grack is town. This is the weakest town read i have. I don't think he has done much and yeah technically he could be mafia for sure, i just don't think he is since every once in a while he comes in with a super smart comment or observation.

That leaves me with Dann/Oats/Vivax/gob/Hu Tao.

I have absolutely no idea what to think of Hu Tao. Every other time i read i think she is town and every other time i think she is mafia. I think it is slightly more likely to be town for the stupid gambit at the start of the day. I simply don't know what there is to achieve, if Luca is town OR if Luca is mafia (since basically that was the ONLY assumed wagon start D2 and Dunn flipping town)????

gob is most likely mafia for what i said.

Dann has faded off and i feel like that's strange. I need to look further into his reads on day 2 and mirror them to the fact he said he is purposely stepping down from trying to be a town leader. I don't understand why someone who is able to lead the town would not want to lead the town. If people are pushing his scumreads, then i guess that can make sense. If not, then there is a problem in what he's doing. I myself have found this day phase quite all over the place and there has been not so good direction or agreement between people. That's why i find his play weird this phase, and statistically scum can't keep up with "townie play" the more the game goes on.

Oats and Vivax i have to completely reread, as there is probably at least one mafia in those people. I haven't done that yet, but i am planning to start this evening.

Can we please now use the time we have and not yeet anyone when we have like 3-4 day self in the phase????
At least give people time to play friday evening and saturday, since that's the time i can acually be active.

I've been working off this post as a basis of a rethink on the game.

[DarthPunk]

I am working off OOO as my strongest town read and then trying to solve from there, so I am putting heaps of thought into the areas we disagree right now.

And heaps of weight into reads where we align.

[DarthPunk]

So basically I really just want to yeet gob right now.

[DarthPunk]

I also want to chat with OOO about the game and figure the rest of it out BEFORE a night phase, the silent nights really are a killer.

[DarthPunk]

ninja what is your read on HT?

[DarthPunk]

@darth punk

Luca and Ninja scum together seems impossible to me. They work together too obviously when it comes to derailing the thread.

Look I promise I am done doing what I was doing against Oats. The fact that it was WITH Luca is not the important part here. I needed to know what Oats' deal was, why he was being stubborn on what seems like a lot of really low-stakes stuff, trying to see if we could just talk through a read, be logical about it, come to an understanding. And to make an admittedly enormous story short, he won't, so I'm content to just scum read him and leave it at that. He had his chance to admit that his logic didn't add up and that his read strategy is faulty, and he did everything in his power to avoid having to admit it. So he's just scum in my book.

But for real, you won't see that from me again. I got the answer I needed.

Okay so you see here, shes fine saying that my logic didnt add up by her standards and because I didnt bend to her will and admit it, im mafia.

Oh I am interested in the alignment; I'm just not interested in analysis of Naerys herself, because there's just not enough to chew on. Whatever tools I want to use to sort someone out, I can't really use those at all on Naerys. You realize it takes like 5 minutes to read through her ISO?

My real life job is biostatistician, and in my profession, we often caution against even conducting a statistical test on anything with too little data. A conclusion based on small sample size is quite dangerous.

Thats a cool job. have you written any papers?

Mafia is not that though, we need to be able to infer probable truths from small pieces of information.

I do know her iso is really small, that is why it bothers me that you didn't

1.) read it when she was in your POE
and
2.) Notice what I did and rule her out from being mafia at least from the time being, or at least consider and dismiss it as being non-indicative of alignment.

Well, you're just going to have to be bothered, then. You don't think small sample size conclusions apply to games like these. I do.

So here, obviously her logic doesnt add up for DP, so she just says, well deal with it. And obviously thats not a problem for her.

Oh I am interested in the alignment; I'm just not interested in analysis of Naerys herself, because there's just not enough to chew on. Whatever tools I want to use to sort someone out, I can't really use those at all on Naerys. You realize it takes like 5 minutes to read through her ISO?

I think I've explained my viewpoint to Darth as thoroughly as I can. I try to look at as many interesting tidbits and nuggets of whatever as I can and I add those up as things that look towny, things that look scummy, and however the chips fall after adding it all up, that's how I tend to feel about the person ultimately. The bit about sample size, I just don't know how else I can get the point across that we do have an abundance of data on pretty much everyone here, while we have a staggering dearth of it with Naerys. It's not just about the post count; it's about what's in the posts. I insist that you can read through and understand everything she's done in this game in 5 minutes. That's just not enough of hardly anything for me to want to bother investing time into directly solving her alignment by studying her directly. I don't know how I can be any clearer on that point.

And she constantly repeats how it only takes 5 minutes to read through naerys' iso but somehow she didnt do it because its not large enough? Thats not good logic to me or anyone imo. She couldve easily admitted that her method was faulty but she doubles down on the exact same type of thing that shes calling me mafia for.

Yeah ok I see what you are saying, but do you think that makes her mafia.

Cause ATM I am not sure if this is just how she is as town and that makes me suspect her or if there is a mafia motivation behind it.

There is a much weirder post from her to be honest.

its this one:

If you all want me to sheep on a Luca vote, I probably will at this point. It seems like the most informative flip we could be making right now.

Even Luca thought it was weird

If you all want me to sheep on a Luca vote, I probably will at this point. It seems like the most informative flip we could be making right now.

Btw, what sparked this comment anyway?

Wouldn't Darth be as informative a flip as my own, if not more so? I would definitely say more so, given his connections to other tl members, especially the likes of Oats who has been backing him up every step of the way.

I also got the impression that you townread me more than Darth, so I'm just a little puzzled by this.

Ninja was kind of also pushing you and me as lims next after Luca

If you all want me to sheep on a Luca vote, I probably will at this point. It seems like the most informative flip we could be making right now.

What will your view of the game be after I flip town?

I would be extremely suspicious of Darth and Oats if you flipped town.

I don't think it would change my mind on OOO since he seems to at least have good reasoning for everything, whereas it seems like Darth's case on you is built largely on emotion and overplaying his read on things, and Oats is just trying to frustrate you and everyone else to make you look worse.

big assumption, but if we assume luca, yourself and me was TvTvT, that is kind of setting the stage for a Mafia!Ninja to line up a few mislims in a row.

[DarthPunk]

I just don't know why Ninja does this

[DarthPunk]

viewtopic.php?p=14086404#p14086404

[DarthPunk]

As town, with how her reads were developing on me and Luca.

TBH I got the feeling that Ninja never actually scum read me, even when she was voting for me.

[DarthPunk]

I really don't understand the following sequence if she is mafia though.

Like why not just push for my mislim here?

In the meantime, this is where I want my vote to be for the time being.

VOTE: DarthPunk

This is E-2, by the way.

No lol. It's not a coincidence I vote for him after his most recent contributions.

FWIW I absolutely positively do not want him yeeted while he's asleep, and if anyone pushes him to -1 right now, I'm canceling my vote.

In fact I am having second thoughts about this, now that I think about it some more. There's a chance, actually maybe a pretty good chance, that you're both town.

And if that's true, holy shit have we ever handed scum a great play. Yeet one of you today, and when whoever we flip flips town, we immediately go after the other. We are literally grounding into a double play here. They follow through on that, and voila, we are only one misyeet away from gg at that point.

I don't like it.

UNVOTE:

[DarthPunk]

Part of me would just rule ninja out based on engagement heuristics. But the fact that she started the game saying that active=townie basically rules it out as NAI.

[DarthPunk]

Oats what is the best active scum game you played on TL.

I want to do some meta.

[DarthPunk]

Meh. the yeet is just gob.

[DarthPunk]

https://tl.net/forum/mafia/532537-mafia ... Oatsmaster
Maybe?
I know i have a couple games not reflected in the database but idk how to find them

Thanks.

[DarthPunk]

I am just gonna blurt out everything i have thought about after yesterday. I've been able to follow the thread at work.

I think Luca vs DP is T/T. I am fairly certain of it. Both side's reasoning for other one being mafia makes sense (+ Grack on DP), but i don't think it makes either of them mafia. The more i read Luca's posts i think it just how he posts, rather than that he is trying to deceive. It looks annoying to me (i mean this with no offence) because from what i know appearing certain is a way you get the people you want on the chopping block. He did appear certain though lately, when he was willing to go 1v1 against DP, and that looked townie to me, because i don't think he thinks he can win that argument.

DP did some weird shit at the end of D1, yes. I still don't think it makes him mafia because he simply just doesn't have to do that. If there is a choice of getting rid of either Luca or Dunn D1 for him, what's the point of having a player who is defending themselves to death alive D2 over a fairly passive player? Again, being wrong doesn't make anyone mafia, and the misyeet could be easily blamed on someone else -- for instance on people who joined the wagon without much reasoning (as Luca himself said, almost everyone has thought he is scum in this game).

I also believe Ninja is town. This is more of a tone read than based on content, because i don't understand most of her point by point arguments (no offence again). I also can't place her in any mafia team in based on my reads.

Another person i think is town is Naerys. It's very hard for me to explain why i townread her. It's basically -- especially now during D2, whenever she posts it seems like there is some sort of thought going on in her head. Although i tend to have no idea what that is at each point, i think it's townie lol. ^^

I also think Grack is town. This is the weakest town read i have. I don't think he has done much and yeah technically he could be mafia for sure, i just don't think he is since every once in a while he comes in with a super smart comment or observation.

That leaves me with Dann/Oats/Vivax/gob/Hu Tao.

I have absolutely no idea what to think of Hu Tao. Every other time i read i think she is town and every other time i think she is mafia. I think it is slightly more likely to be town for the stupid gambit at the start of the day. I simply don't know what there is to achieve, if Luca is town OR if Luca is mafia (since basically that was the ONLY assumed wagon start D2 and Dunn flipping town)????

gob is most likely mafia for what i said.

Dann has faded off and i feel like that's strange. I need to look further into his reads on day 2 and mirror them to the fact he said he is purposely stepping down from trying to be a town leader. I don't understand why someone who is able to lead the town would not want to lead the town. If people are pushing his scumreads, then i guess that can make sense. If not, then there is a problem in what he's doing. I myself have found this day phase quite all over the place and there has been not so good direction or agreement between people. That's why i find his play weird this phase, and statistically scum can't keep up with "townie play" the more the game goes on.

Oats and Vivax i have to completely reread, as there is probably at least one mafia in those people. I haven't done that yet, but i am planning to start this evening.

Can we please now use the time we have and not yeet anyone when we have like 3-4 day self in the phase????
At least give people time to play friday evening and saturday, since that's the time i can acually be active.

I've been working off this post as a basis of a rethink on the game.

Definitely a good post.

I largely agree with it

. It's also what I look for from OutofOrder as town and what I think he often avoids doing as mafia because he knows he can keep his options open without risking being yeeted.

But doesn't this just mean you can agree and or disagree with anything about it at any time?

[DarthPunk]

I am just gonna blurt out everything i have thought about after yesterday. I've been able to follow the thread at work.

I think Luca vs DP is T/T. I am fairly certain of it. Both side's reasoning for other one being mafia makes sense (+ Grack on DP), but i don't think it makes either of them mafia. The more i read Luca's posts i think it just how he posts, rather than that he is trying to deceive. It looks annoying to me (i mean this with no offence) because from what i know appearing certain is a way you get the people you want on the chopping block. He did appear certain though lately, when he was willing to go 1v1 against DP, and that looked townie to me, because i don't think he thinks he can win that argument.

DP did some weird shit at the end of D1, yes. I still don't think it makes him mafia because he simply just doesn't have to do that. If there is a choice of getting rid of either Luca or Dunn D1 for him, what's the point of having a player who is defending themselves to death alive D2 over a fairly passive player? Again, being wrong doesn't make anyone mafia, and the misyeet could be easily blamed on someone else -- for instance on people who joined the wagon without much reasoning (as Luca himself said, almost everyone has thought he is scum in this game).

I also believe Ninja is town. This is more of a tone read than based on content, because i don't understand most of her point by point arguments (no offence again). I also can't place her in any mafia team in based on my reads.

Another person i think is town is Naerys. It's very hard for me to explain why i townread her. It's basically -- especially now during D2, whenever she posts it seems like there is some sort of thought going on in her head. Although i tend to have no idea what that is at each point, i think it's townie lol. ^^

I also think Grack is town. This is the weakest town read i have. I don't think he has done much and yeah technically he could be mafia for sure, i just don't think he is since every once in a while he comes in with a super smart comment or observation.

That leaves me with Dann/Oats/Vivax/gob/Hu Tao.

I have absolutely no idea what to think of Hu Tao. Every other time i read i think she is town and every other time i think she is mafia. I think it is slightly more likely to be town for the stupid gambit at the start of the day. I simply don't know what there is to achieve, if Luca is town OR if Luca is mafia (since basically that was the ONLY assumed wagon start D2 and Dunn flipping town)????

gob is most likely mafia for what i said.

Dann has faded off and i feel like that's strange. I need to look further into his reads on day 2 and mirror them to the fact he said he is purposely stepping down from trying to be a town leader. I don't understand why someone who is able to lead the town would not want to lead the town. If people are pushing his scumreads, then i guess that can make sense. If not, then there is a problem in what he's doing. I myself have found this day phase quite all over the place and there has been not so good direction or agreement between people. That's why i find his play weird this phase, and statistically scum can't keep up with "townie play" the more the game goes on.

Oats and Vivax i have to completely reread, as there is probably at least one mafia in those people. I haven't done that yet, but i am planning to start this evening.

Can we please now use the time we have and not yeet anyone when we have like 3-4 day self in the phase????
At least give people time to play friday evening and saturday, since that's the time i can acually be active.

I've been working off this post as a basis of a rethink on the game.

Definitely a good post.

I largely agree with it

. It's also what I look for from OutofOrder as town and what I think he often avoids doing as mafia because he knows he can keep his options open without risking being yeeted.

But doesn't this just mean you can agree and or disagree with anything about it at any time?

Ninja town read is correct.

His Naerys read seems reasonable as well and doesn't seem like something made up.

He's definitely right at the very least that

Luca/you are not the right idea for today's yeet.

Somehow he even has me in the town list as well.

why you hedging here, can you just give your Luca/dp read right now?

[DarthPunk]

I'm seeing scum equity between Gob/Oats. Oats started off by attacking Gob for his reasoning at the start of the game and Gob interacts with Oats more than any other player.

After re-reading a bit this post stuck out to me:

I legit cannot remember why I thought dannfloor was scummy... I had a good reason why he was the right vote at work but i forgot it.

VOTE: DarthPunk

so im switching gears.

Okay so I’m trying to rationalize this vote as mafia!gob

Assuming mafia!dann
This is a quick distraction play to discredit dp and sow some confusion, it’s extremely basic and likely to break down under more intense scrutiny especially once dann flips.

Assuming town!dann
I just don’t see any reason gob swaps here, it’s super striking and he’s been doing a good job of floating around without attracting too much suspicion and he votes the 1 person that thinks he’s mafia.

Idkkkkk I mean maybe I’m giving gob too much credit

This post approaches Gob from a weird angle to me. I don't think Oats was scum reading Gob at the time but his default approach is to consider whether it would make sense for Gob to make his vote as mafia based off the two possibilities for Dan's alignment. This seems like a very unnatural approach to me. The more normal reaction imo is just to try to get more information.

At the same time as Oats make this post DP is questioning me on my read on Gob, which leads to me voting Gob to try to get an answer for his Dann posts and Oats reacted like my vote was ridiculous.

Grack what are you doing cmon

At the end Gob never even responded about Dann he just came back into the thread and claimed mafia.

I also want to follow up on this.

The ending of Oats' post seems crafted/unnatural as well with the 'idkkkkkk i mean maybe I'm giving gob too much credit'.

This is a very big tell for me. If a post seems to be scum-motivated/seems like it's coming from an unnatural place and at the same time utilizes stilted language/unnatural speech, very likely it's coming from scum.

You think oats is forced to bus now?

[DarthPunk]

grack can you explain why you are so sure on Ninja!town?

Cause I have been thinking about that slot a lot and I am not so sure.

[DarthPunk]

I am less sure about dann town reading the last half of his ISO.

[DarthPunk]

grack can you explain why you are so sure on Ninja!town?

Cause I have been thinking about that slot a lot and I am not so sure.

People are taking issue with her reasoning being inconsistent (ruling out active players as mafia at some points and moving them into teams in other points), but the reality is that she's just posting her thought process way more than she needs to as mafia and changing her reads more than she needs to as mafia. To me she seems like an open book.

There's also posts I liked where she was complaining that she put a lot of effort into analyzing the vote counts from the previous day and that nobody bothered to respond to her posts about it. I think that's a very townie thing to do.

I think the bolded is just easy to fake for some people though.

[DarthPunk]

Grack are you super busy IRL?

[DarthPunk]

I want to see a flip first.

I got way too bamboozled with preflip associations in the last obs, as you know.

I want to flip gob so we can agree on that part at least

[DarthPunk]

Rude

[DarthPunk]

I wonder how mind blown Vivax will be at the end game after we successfully pulled off that distancing today after he caught you/me/Luca at the start of the day.

Shhh he might hear you

[DarthPunk]

It’s hard I know I find I make less mistakes with saying Kim cause it also starts with an l

[DarthPunk]

He also want to lim his strong town read, can’t really explain that as town tbh.

[DarthPunk]

As opposed to pushing for me, his supposed scum read who also fits his oats criteria of being from tl and being annoying.

[DarthPunk]

This wagon kind of reminds me of LS from endures 1, just like super scummy from day one but it took forever to lim him even though there was no reason not too.

[DarthPunk]

I just woke up.

If you see this before you go can you explain the backflip on my lim by scum!ninja.

It’s basically the point I can’t get past cause it makes no sense as mafia to not just try and yeet me there.

[DarthPunk]

Lets yeet OoO everyone

VOTE: OutofOrder

Lol

[DarthPunk]

Why is ninja your top townread 1?
Just to make sure you have to help up to your words when she flips mafia.

Because she just feels genuine and her solving feels genuine. I don't think she can fake that unless she's insanely good as scum.

Can you post a reads list or whatever. I literally don’t know your position on the game.

[DarthPunk]

Actually, looking it over it has changed a bit since then

Top town
SuperfluousNinja, outoforder

Townish
Dannflor

Mid
Grackaroni, Vivax, Luca Blight,

Leaning
DarthPunk, Naerys

Scum
Oatsmaster, Gob

Vivax I think becomes way scummier if oats flips scum. But independently he isn't as scummy.

I still also think there is something in the dann/gob/vivax/oat dynamics. Wondering if the team can be gob/vivax/oat

What are your thoughts about your top town read scum reading your other top town read.

[DarthPunk]

A lot of the playerbase seems protective of ninja, maybe they know something we don‘t.

I also see things I don‘t want to mention.

I also find that to be the case.

I also find that strange.

[DarthPunk]

Alright everyone, unvote me temporarily. I have an announcement to make.


I am the Tracker. I tracked Naerys last night and she didn’t visit anyone.

This is why i was originally suspicious of Hu Tao’s scumclaim.

Why naerys?

[DarthPunk]

UNVOTE:

[DarthPunk]

im gonna hammer myself.

do it rn!!

changed my mind after reading this.

Why would you hammer yourself instead of just claim at this point?

[DarthPunk]

VOTE: Gob

I don’t buy it.

[DarthPunk]

dont hammer me yet everyone

ill give my final reads before i i

Or here why no claim?

[DarthPunk]

I'm actually thinking that Oats is scummier than Gob.

I’m not sure how that is possible tbh

[DarthPunk]

The suspense is killing me lol

My bet from her posts is Oats, but that'd make me bad for copying OutofOrder/DP's read on him.

Why would you be be bad?

I put you as a top town read since you were active and reading through people's games to make meta reads + OutofOrder/DP both reading you as lock town.

We'll see what comes out though I'm just speculating baselessly.

That's great, but like, why would we yeet anyone other than whoever Hu Tao mentions today?

Obviously we need to know if they are lying, and if they are, we yeet Hu Tao next, which I'm sure Hu Tao is well aware of, thus they wouldn't just make this up.

I see no reason to doubt Hu Tao here and don't plan on focusing on anyone other than whoever they bring up today.

Really depends on their claim, I’m also not a fan of the claim being done so early in the day

lol then why did you start by posting 'alright let's goooooo'

Your first reaction to many things in this game has been to call them terrible.

very very odd flip between 20 minutes of actual time

Announcing a red check puts scum in a position where they need to act in the same way that scum needs to act when they're reacting to a scum flip.

You've been cantankerous about pretty much every play this game and you thought that the correct play was to withhold the information and yet you were the only one cheering on the reveal. To me that's strange.

So walk me through what goes through scum!oats mind during that time.

"I better cheer so I don't look suspicious"
.
.
.
.
.
"What a dumb play. Hu-Tao should have withheld the red check to get more information."

Can you address why you are scumreading me for the very thing you are doing?

I really don't think that's what I'm doing.

When I scum read DP it was not the thread sentiment. People started moving towards DP and it provoked a strong reaction from DP.

When I made a push to vote you today it also provoked a strong reaction because I think I made it clear that I was intending to push for my read to try to get an execution.

Generally people will react strongly to getting limmed as either alignment cause either they -know- you are wrong or they are -acting- like you are wrong.

Either way NAI in my opinion.

I can see why people think oats is mafia, but I don’t think they are right, and I think the dann read is wrong too, although he is reacting strongly to the same stuff as me and ooo he has made genuinely good points and analysis that was original and relevant.

I started reading his mafia game from tl and while there were similarities to this game, I think in that game there was basically zero good analysis which is not the same.

I have had doubts about being pocketed by oats. But it’s also just as likely that we both think of the game the same way as we learned to play mafia at the same time with the same meta.

Further, I can see analysis, read progression and a world view of the game that makes sense to me.

He may be right or wrong but at least to me it is a consistent world view.

I can’t see any of that from gob. And his claim just doesn’t really make sense in terms of why claim then as opposed to any other time.

[DarthPunk]

I'm actually thinking that Oats is scummier than Gob.

I’m not sure how that is possible tbh

There's a few things tonally that have me questioning Gob.

yea im not gonna sit here and go over the same thing over and over, handholding people.

How about you guys make some reads and have confience you can find the answers with the info we cureently have

Why did he exactly did he teach me wrong?

Saying exactly what you want, for instance.

If you are serious i can actually help you improve.

And if you dont think im worth learning from well… watch and learn

I kind of believe his posts where he thinks that he's playing better than us. And that seems much more likely to come from town on the verge of being yeeted than as scum on the verge of being yeeted.

Why does that come from town and not mafia trying to fake false bravado.

It kind of just comes across as whatever to me. In fact the more he leans into shit like that instead of solving or doing anything to further the town agenda the more scummy he appears.

[DarthPunk]

I'm actually thinking that Oats is scummier than Gob.

I’m not sure how that is possible tbh

There's a few things tonally that have me questioning Gob.

yea im not gonna sit here and go over the same thing over and over, handholding people.

How about you guys make some reads and have confience you can find the answers with the info we cureently have

Why did he exactly did he teach me wrong?

Saying exactly what you want, for instance.

If you are serious i can actually help you improve.

And if you dont think im worth learning from well… watch and learn

I kind of believe his posts where he thinks that he's playing better than us. And that seems much more likely to come from town on the verge of being yeeted than as scum on the verge of being yeeted.

Why does that come from town and not mafia trying to fake false bravado.

It kind of just comes across as whatever to me. In fact the more he leans into shit like that instead of solving or doing anything to further the town agenda the more scummy he appears.

Maybe.

It seems more likely to me that this is his genuine feeling rather than that he's sitting as scum knowing that he's largely been caught and planning out this reaction as a way to deflect suspicion rather than just trying to contribute and push some suspicion towards someone else.

I’m fine with tone reads. But at some point in a game of 150 pages if someone is town they will have done “something” to solve.

Like even with chez and slam, I think they are readable because although they troll, as town they are productive in the end, as mafia they are not.

I just don’t see how gob has been productive.

[DarthPunk]

Grack we aren’t yeeting oats right now

[DarthPunk]

Grack we aren’t yeeting oats right now

Well we certainly aren't doing OutofOrder's Ninja showdown.

I want to see it at least, you know that OOO can get off a strong read if there is a reason too, and I think it will provide a lot of info.

Do you not even want to see what OOO and ninja think of the gob claim?

[DarthPunk]

I have changed my mind about the long days being pro town btw, I think it makes it hard for townies to stay engaged and keeps the discussions going around and around in circles.

[DarthPunk]

So i understand wanting to see a flip, but I think its still wrong right now before OOO can finish working out the game as there is a good chance he just gets NK after we yeet oats, and I think oats is town, so all in all that would be a pretty bad outcome.

[DarthPunk]

Actually, looking it over it has changed a bit since then

Top town
SuperfluousNinja, outoforder

Townish
Dannflor

Mid
Grackaroni, Vivax, Luca Blight,

Leaning
DarthPunk, Naerys

Scum
Oatsmaster, Gob

Vivax I think becomes way scummier if oats flips scum. But independently he isn't as scummy.

I still also think there is something in the dann/gob/vivax/oat dynamics. Wondering if the team can be gob/vivax/oat

What are your thoughts about your top town read scum reading your other top town read.

I think it's just playstyle clash.

What about OOO's case is about playstyle?

[DarthPunk]

Since when did you townread Hu Tao?

Since I wrote my reads out, Im thinking that it’s fairly unreasonable to do a gambit like that without a plan as mafia and she definitely didn’t have a plan

This is a good point actually.

[DarthPunk]

Since when did you townread Hu Tao?

Since I wrote my reads out, Im thinking that it’s fairly unreasonable to do a gambit like that without a plan as mafia and she definitely didn’t have a plan

You seem to have been scumreading Hu Tao for most of this day since her reaction test, so it seems odd that all of a sudden as you're writing out your reads list you become confident she is town.

why would mafia!oats be inconsistent with HT now when he is facing pressure just before his death?

[DarthPunk]

I have changed my mind about the long days being pro town btw, I think it makes it hard for townies to stay engaged and keeps the discussions going around and around in circles.

Of the couple games I checked, there are a lotta scum wins lol.
Not really sure if it’s player base or format related lol

You should just start dumping reads if you haven't already, I am not sure I can save you here.

[DarthPunk]

Since when did you townread Hu Tao?

Since I wrote my reads out, Im thinking that it’s fairly unreasonable to do a gambit like that without a plan as mafia and she definitely didn’t have a plan

You seem to have been scumreading Hu Tao for most of this day since her reaction test, so it seems odd that all of a sudden as you're writing out your reads list you become confident she is town.

why would mafia!oats be inconsistent with HT now when he is facing pressure just before his death?

Could be a few reasons, such as:

- He doesn't want Hu tao to vote for him, so tries to placate her with a town read
- To make her look a bit worse, or at least muddy the waters in terms of associations, following an oats red flip
- Because he wants to pick his battles right now - he can always return to Hu Tao on another day if he survives this one.

Why would Town!oats not consider whether the reaction test meant Hu Tao is more likely town earlier in the day? he has scumread her ever since then. You say oats made a good point, but he's only repeating what myself and other said ages ago. I don't get how oats can scumread her all day, be asked to give some reads and then suddenly, out of nowhere, decide she is town, based on this progression.

none of this makes sense if scrutinised beyond a surface level, he would know as mafia that he would get jumped on for this.

I find two explanations plausible

1.) he was under pressure and just slipped

2.) he is town and he just changed his mind.

anything else doesn't make sense. So it's basically NAI imo.

[DarthPunk]

If oats is town then he would have considered that possibility well before now. Hu Tao hasn't been suspected by anyone for a while now and *poof*, his scumread magically disappears.

I don't think there are arbitrary timeframes in place that town need to meet in order to change their mind.

[DarthPunk]

If oats is town then he would have considered that possibility well before now. Hu Tao hasn't been suspected by anyone for a while now and *poof*, his scumread magically disappears.

I don't think there are arbitrary timeframes in place that town need to meet in order to change their mind.

There isn't, but it's not a natural read progression when he has scumread her since then. For example, I scumread Hu Tao previously, but determined her reaction test was more likely to come from town straight after it happened, even though she suspected me based on my reaction to it.

It's just convenient that oats' scumread disappears when Hu Tao is no longer under suspicion, and she happens to hold a key vote in deciding his fate.

This seems like a good point, but it actually isn't because based on the game so far, oats should know he will get cleaned up from flipping on this read right now.

And HT will definitely notice, and is therefore more likely to sus him if she is town.

[DarthPunk]

It's gonna be real awkward if you flip mafia here oats.

[DarthPunk]

If oats is town then he would have considered that possibility well before now. Hu Tao hasn't been suspected by anyone for a while now and *poof*, his scumread magically disappears.

I don't think there are arbitrary timeframes in place that town need to meet in order to change their mind.

There isn't, but it's not a natural read progression when he has scumread her since then. For example, I scumread Hu Tao previously, but determined her reaction test was more likely to come from town straight after it happened, even though she suspected me based on my reaction to it.

It's just convenient that oats' scumread disappears when Hu Tao is no longer under suspicion, and she happens to hold a key vote in deciding his fate.

This seems like a good point, but it actually isn't because based on the game so far, oats should know he will get cleaned up from flipping on this read right now.

And HT will definitely notice, and is therefore more likely to sus him if she is town.

He's getting cleaned up anyway. It's probably easier for oats to just put Hu tao as town for now than to find reasons to justify scumreading her when she won't be getting limmed and he has other more immediate issues to deal with, like surviving.

It feels to me that you will never scumread oats this game, no matter what. He has you well and truly pocketed.

There is a chance this is true honestly, but I have decided to trust my read on oats, and if I got bamboozled then fair play to him.

[DarthPunk]

Luca, I’m not really sure what the problem is with dp defending his town read when you literally did the exact same thing with Dann.

I have no problem with him defending it, but I do believe you have him pocketed to the extent that nothing will change his mind short of your red flip.

My other strongest town read, who I also know for a fact is good at the game and good at reading oats also has oats as town, do you think OOO is pocketed too?

[DarthPunk]

like the proposition here is that I am wrong and that tip top town OOO is also wrong. I can't really agree to that.

[DarthPunk]

Luca, I’m not really sure what the problem is with dp defending his town read when you literally did the exact same thing with Dann.

I have no problem with him defending it, but I do believe you have him pocketed to the extent that nothing will change his mind short of your red flip.

My other strongest town read, who I also know for a fact is good at the game and good at reading oats also has oats as town, do you think OOO is pocketed too?

Not according to 3490.

I believe Outoforder is wrong, but still open to the possibility of oats being scum as he's shown here. He is currently tunnelled on Ninja which is obscuring his view of the game, in my opinion.

Yeah this is more correct actually, i walk back my statement,

[DarthPunk]

im not interested in yeeting anyone until OOO and ninja are back.