Yet a friendly question: Why have you avoided to vote ?Ythill wrote:Hello.
Hmmmmm.... all new faces, except Andy, who modded a game I was in. This game is going to be meta-free for awhile, at least from my PoV.
Mini 645 - Innocence Falls (Game Over)
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nureins 100% Pure
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you are welcome...these first steps are for that I guess...for instance, matin's words that I wouldnt comment at an advanced part of the game...Ythill wrote:@ nureins: Never joke-voted, never will. I'll vote soon enough, and it will be with purpose.
But thanks for asking.
I know it is almost a joke, but why didnt you yet vote for the guy you wanted to vote for ? two votes are far from being relevant...matin wrote: cause he voted for the guy I wanted to vote for-
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@matin
If we hide things/actions/thoughts etc because they "might" appear as suspicious, we are in a bad path...this can only help scum as they can hide in the forest...
The more information we discuss on eachother, the better...in any case, I simply wanted to launch debate to share the more information and to avoid people's silence...so u do not need to comment too much on why you didnt voted that way. The random stage is pretty uninformative until people is forced to talk...-
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I saw it that way before TPT, I also want a bandwagon !!nhat wrote: @TPT
I dunno how you saw it this way, but will I use it as an excuse to start a bandwagon? You bet!
Now seriously, after all the posts about the topic, I see two things in Matin's words:
1) that he felt Jahudo stole his vote for ectomancer. This part is what Matin used as any other reason he could use to make a "joke" vote on jahudo. And this is the part that Goatrevolt and Jahudo pointed out. I do not find this part very relevant, as I take Matin's way of voting as any joking way.
2) that he "changed" his mind from voting when jahudo stole the vote. I pointed out this question and later TPT insisted. In my view, not a very serious issue, so I just raised a question delicately to Matin in order to see his answer. I agree that he shouldnt be worried about putting a second vote on someone, and that hidding in the forest is not a good help for us...we do not need townies hidding if they are townies...now I want more words from Matin-jahudo-TPT-Goatrevolt-nhat to clarify my mind...-
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Ectomancer and Habitang also participated, so clearly I want to hear them too about these issues..
From Matin-Jahudo-TPT-Goat-nhat-ectomancer-habitang I found Ectomancer's words (even if they attack also me because I insisted like TPT) as the most pro-town, as he tried not to do a mess from a very minor issue that i just commented by passing in a friendly way...-
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My theory is that you made a joke vote, that I took the relaxed chance to ask you about "not putting a second vote on someone"...that you answered you didnt want to be "suspicious", and that I agree with ectomance that this is NOTHING and that we are far away from somebody being too suspicious...Just I take notes about all the reactions on this game...as this could be useful later...Matin wrote:
Is this serious? The vote was entirely random as was the reason.nureins wrote: I saw it that way before TPT, I also want a bandwagon !!
Now seriously, after all the posts about the topic, I see two things in Matin's words:
1) that he felt Jahudo stole his vote for ectomancer. This part is what Matin used as any other reason he could use to make a "joke" vote on jahudo. And this is the part that Goatrevolt and Jahudo pointed out. I do not find this part very relevant, as I take Matin's way of voting as any joking way.
2) that he "changed" his mind from voting when jahudo stole the vote. I pointed out this question and later TPT insisted. In my view, not a very serious issue, so I just raised a question delicately to Matin in order to see his answer. I agree that he shouldnt be worried about putting a second vote on someone, and that hidding in the forest is not a good help for us...we do not need townies hidding if they are townies...now I want more words from Matin-jahudo-TPT-Goatrevolt-nhat to clarify my mind...
Let me get this straight, your theory is that I am scum who was afraid to draw the spotlight on myself by placing a second joke vote on someone, so instead, I drew the spotlight by announcing my fear to do so?
precisely, u announced such a fear, and then i stopped thinking too much, as i took it as a townie reaction...
my answer to you was precisely that id like you (and others, all townies) to be so townie and not hidding things all the time...just dont be afraid to expose your thoughts and votes...this can only help scum by putting a nebulose on you...
clearly i dont think u are scum and i dont think ectomancer is scum as he clearly gave no importance to all this stupid issue... (of course, these are pretty vague impressions, but im happy to have a couple of town-soft-impressions to start with...)
is it more clear now ?? ASK if you have any doubt-
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Hey Matin, which part is a joke ? (ectomancer, you are welcome to give your opinion on that too...) and of course Ythill and pope are welcome tooMatin wrote: It's a head scratcher. I'm assuming it's a joke post and she's merely trying to upstage me on the whole suspicious joke post thing..
1. Ythill QUICK vote after saying he doesnt like random-joke votes...
2. pope INSISTING on you so much
3. tpt voting back to Ythill in an OMGUS way
4. They playing to vote each other to DISTANCE in a semi-random phase...
which of them is a joke and which of them is more probable to be true ?
I do not claim none of them is, just asking you which one is more probable...we have to enjoy some adventures in the beginning of the game...if you want my opinion, i especially didnt like 1 and 3. (2 is clearly due to a misunderstanding on Matin's answer and the head scratcher thing...and 4 is ridiculous for what they are playing, haha, i could not believe such stupid play can be preplanned...so 1 and 3...but i have my doubts if one of them is relevant...-
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tpt, this is completely antitown...if you are town, how do u help us this way ? if you are scum, you would deprive us from discussing with a quick lynch. In any case, your vote doesnt help town at all !!!The Pope's Tiara wrote:Oh, P.S.
Unvote, Vote: The Pope's Tiara
I can do this right? Since you all seem to hate me and are obviously so much better at this game then I, you might as well lynch me first.
do not get the comments of other people so personal, nobody is attacking you...
you are risking also a lynch by scum, please reconsider and unvote yourself...
After that of course, Ill consider you a bit suspicious for some of the things around, but not so much to put you at L-1...-
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Good, I expected that of you (Ectomancer, noc noc, you are failing us )Matin wrote: Intially I read the whole thing as newbie like, but I need to meta game a bit to see if Pope really is new to the game.
If we dont do it quick, that game is gonna explode, so Ill try to follow you and comment back if you want...please try to ask me in a direct way, Im a bit busy these days so clear questions help...-
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It seems this random vote is exploding...I want to know your opinions in the 4 points I wrote before (feel free to say all of them are ridiculous, i almost think they are ) and in the following extra twoJahudo wrote: @nureins, my initial reaction to Ectomancer is that he has seen thing kind of thing in random voting stages before and by joking about it himself does not see any serious harm; that an accuser does not have much to go on and a defender hardly has to defend themselves.
unvote
5. Ectomancer thinks all is a joke but he doesnt understand that tpt might also be joking and casts on him a fourth vote, SUSPICIOUS?
6. I ask u this because you are the only not voting now, and u unvoted ectomancer, so i guess your answer to five is NO (mine is also no) but want to know how you perceive all this struggle...random voting is typically unvoted when u put ur vote on someone else , were u planning to do it ?
you can ask in a very simple way, i know they r too many questions...just a few words saying the ideas are "ridiculous" or "almost impossible" "interesting" "promising" etc would help ...
Might you help us with the tpt metainformation ? that guy put a fifth vote on him !!-
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I dont think it either Ecto. I put a big laugh in my comment. The point was that lot of people is joining an almost laughable wagon. So I made a bit of fun in the fact that you did too.Ectomancer wrote:
I dont think I failed us, as he definitely squealed and we've had reactions to that.
However, I'm also not certain I am prepared to yield to Simenon's assessment of TPT either.
Im writting down the reactions of all people in this beautiful dance people is playing around pope and ythill. Of course a bit of scummish attitude can be extracted from pope (and from others around). And if you see Simenon's last action, I'm not prepared either. He JUMPED over Ythill as a fast runner. Let's see what appears from all this debate.
I mantain the vote on Ythill but I announce randomness has not disappeared a lot...after this beautiful dance among so many players I might be ready to cast a less random vote.-
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Even if I do not agree with the words, I do agree with the essence. Even most of my thoughts are already posted by others.cass wrote:(@Simenon)I dislike how you make many posts, but with little content. Enough reason to change my random vote into a non-random one.
What I did not like especially from Simenon was two things. First, just saying that someone is town when that person is at L-2. If you really think he is town, why havent you tried to explain it carefully ? there are plenty of players voting for him ! So your words can only generate more votes on him...
At some point, I was tempted to accept TPT's behavior as newbie and/or as very emotional...and I was interested into confirming such with metainformation (as we announced we were about to do). What I really found surprising is that TPT directly announced that he is:jahudo wrote:Sure you can still have fun with posts but a self-vote isn’t funny. It gives the impression that you are possibly bluffing, which doesn’t help town, or possibly can’t take criticism, which could mean you go defensive and overly cautious.
-an experienced player
-someone that calculates a lot his actions (as he wanted not to be meta-studied and so on...
From this point on, the issue on his autovote is no longer a stupid thing for me...it is a serious one. He raised in my scuMETER. Im not gonna vote him for the moment, but Im no longer so open to consider his action a newbie-emotional stupidity...
Jahudo, I completely agree with you. Precisely I said that I could not really believe these two people had preplanned this game. This let us with the fact that one of them (at most) would be mafia...jahudo wrote: 4. I don’t see if this was answered but OMGUS is when you vote for someone simply because they voted for you. But nureins, how are they trying to ‘distance’ each other? This seems to bring in more attention.
As I told in that 1 to 4 (and then 5 and 6) points, I started with the possibility that only 1 or 3 were a bit credible. Ectomancer seems to believe Ythill is more townie than TPT. Can I assume that you too ? Indeed, I had serious doubts before the information he gave on his experience.
Also, having been so careful as to choose a different game to play with, etc etc, having thought so much about his participation in this forum, etc etc, is it credible he is not aware what an OMGUS is ? This is my second game ever (in any forum, and even in my complete life, i havent played before !) and I KNOW what an OMGUS is from the first game (and even having some curiosity on the wiki i had found it before my first game)...
I read the same at first, goat. Now I'm less sure after what I describe on his experience...goat wrote:Right now I'm reading TPT's self-vote and sarcastic responses as townie frustration at a perceived unworthy bandwagon on him. The self-vote is poor play as both town and scum, but it seems like something that townies do more often than scum, regardless.
Ectomancer, you come back to my side by far (welcome back to my scumeter deepness), as you have had my SAME thoughts...Im gonna perform this exercise all days, I think is fruitful (the exercise is to answer all the mails appeared from my previous post one by one, without reading all of them before...Im liking it !!)ectomancer wrote:I believe he said he wasn't inexperienced. Perhaps in his experience people are more likely to unvote someone who votes themselves, even while giving them grief over it.
Or perhaps not. I would not read that he is town out of his action though, not the way Simenon and yourself appear to have. I reserve my judgement on him, but he doesnt deserve to be lynched today, even without a claim yet.
Do not take it personal and close in your shell. People is telling you that your opinions can only be useful if they are reasoned...otherwise, as I told before, your words can only put tpt under more pressure and this is bad if you think he is town, is that right ??simenon wrote:I am not defending pope. I am stating my opinion on him. The two are not the same.
you did two things:simenon wrote:@nureins
That expression is meaningless unless you qualify it.
quicly said that TPT was town without any argument
voting the only other participant with a relevant number of votes
both at the same time. This sounds suspicious to me. Of course, it can be a casual thing, or maybe is just that you take a side in the "battle" it was over the table. Precisely, to know which one is the correct, Id like to know your reasons and carefully describe them. Why TPT is town, why ythill is scum. You seem to be participating a lot. Please do not take things as personal and try to answer the questions of others and to give all of us arguments for a better vote...
@simenon: You see, I take Cass' reaction as a townie one. I had the same, and it seems to me that tpt+you is appearing in the mind of some people very softly. It has appeared into mine as to do the following:cass wrote: The way you phrased that sounds like stating a fact rather than an opinion. It is strange to state something like that without explaining yourself.
unvote
FOS: simenon
FOS: tpt
Im not gonna cast my vote yet. I want to wait to read all the posts (this night has been fruitful !!) especially because it is a MILD FOS and i dont want tpt to be pressured more than just answering back some questions...
Really, TPT, why are you doing this ? Think a bit if you are townie, this is not helping us. I yet have a lot of doubts, but it is difficult to find people to defend you if you act like that. Especially if you have no metagames to defend you and you claim to be so experienced...TPT wrote:It's almost like I'm intentionally contradicting myself.
Why do you have your words to have more of an impact if you are not so sure about tpt ? that is the point. You are mildly convinced that he is town, so ponder your words about him. Im very mildly suspicious of him, so Ill not launch serious words on him. Do the same, this helps to know how much you value him. And overall, it helps you give your reasons. Please give your reasons.simenon wrote:I do it all the time. Since this is a normal game with day roles being highly unlikely, I feel there's little harm in phrasing that way. It has more of an impact.
What the hell leads a townie to vote himself ? Tell me the stupid-emotional circumstances under which you did that. I wanted to understand better if this is really possible and why, to see if TPT was around that...habitang wrote:I did that last time and I was Townie so I can sympathyise a little, but at the same time, I don't really think you were pushed to the edge like me to pull out a self-vote. It is either really childish or actually scummy as someone mentioned above, I think.
Cass, did you refer to that stupid thing of habitang when you meta-talked to him ?? how serious is this guy ? (habitang, abstain to answer the last question, haha)
Yes I am. Ok, Thanks for answering my questions. my view on the issue has changed a lot since I formulated as this post clearly states, but thx anyway, the more opinions the more clear I have my mind...andy wrote:@nureins: your location says Spain. Are you spanish?
I do not agree at all. I wanted the opinion of all those who "participated" in the issue involved. Including the name of people forces them to answer back sometimes. I wanted especially the opinion of these guys, so I wrote their names. I do not see the distancing technique, as I was asking them for information, not accusing any of them. In this mail I'm writting all my opinions...habitang wrote:Nureins is also goign under the microscope, asking groups of people seems like a way for confusion, it prompts those people asked to answer, as compared to askign eveyrone, where those who find relevance wil answer. Also it seems liek a distancing technique, to include your partner's name in the list amongst other names. To protect your partner's identity if he gets lynched. If you are going to ask a group of people, why not just ask eveyrone?
Also a result of it is not very pro-town when thsoe who aren't asked have teh license to not give their opinion.
Of course everyone is very welcome to give their opinions in my words even if I do not include their name. That is obvious...
My advice is for you to stop that arrogance, TPT. This is not gonna help you. Some people like Ectomancer have unvoted you (I would have unvoted you coz I would have feared up a quick lynch by couple of emotional people). This doesnt mean the unvoters stopped believing you are scum. Indeed, I truly believe lot of people (including me) have scummy impressions on you. If you are town and just behaving arrogant, think of it...TPT wrote:And why would I want to cooperate with the town? Oh, right, you're all so sure that I'm a townie now, right? Night hasn't passed.
Umm nice exercise this of answering one by one. I cheer you up again, matin. If you want to talk more on habitang, please comment to me, I had the same impression. But TPT is absorbing so much attention than the rest vanishes...matin wrote:I don't have specifics to reference, but this posts struck me as overtly leading. As if you are trying to bait the hook with theories against a couple of players to see if other innocent players pick up on them and run with it..
If your "theory" is right, matin, lets speculate a little bit. Is there a connection between this game and TPT's one ? habitang told a emotional story (I almost was crying ) about townies voting themselves haha...what do you think, Matin ?-
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Thank you Ythill. Answering to you with detail, I already said that 4 was not possible to me. I just extracted these 4 "theories" about the dance all of you were playing, and I wanted to hear opinions on them. I advanced that 1 and 3 were my "favourite" even if very very mild. Now probably I have to admit that Ectomancer didnt fail "me" (but yet I didnt like his vote, Ecto, allow me this at the same time I swallow my pride by accepting your superiority ). Im starting to believe more the 2 one...Ythill wrote: 1. It's my apology for refusing to post a random vote. I try to get a content-based vote out as soon as I have a lead, even if it's a minor one.
2. I wouldn't so much call it INSISTING as I would call it SLINGING MUD. Pope got too serious too quickly, then backed out, then voted for me. INSISTING would have involved more posts, more argument, and one less OMGUS hop.
3. Yes the vote was OMGUS, but I consider it a null-tell in most situations.
4. This is horrible play. Relying on conspiracy theories (assuming two players' alignments without knowing either) leads to confirmation bias and therefore mislynches. I welcome you to point out alignment tells against myself, Pope, or anyone else but... please... don't start accusing us of distancing until one of us has been confirmed as scum.
So please, reconsider your last sentence. I havent accused you of anything. Writting down these big words creates unhelpful messages in the air-
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I was simulposting at the same time you wrote this...and you can see there all my answers. This is Spain, I hope you dont pretend me to write at 4 a.m.Ythill wrote: @ nuriens: There's been time to see what's developed. Now, do you find me scummy? Or Pope? Or both? Or neither? Why?
Now during the day I can be active answering from time to time some posts. And at the morning I can do a big one as I did today...
Now time to work. Enjoy the day...-
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The essence of Cass' argument, though i would not have written it so plain, probably because my suspicions on all of you are milder than hers...but I agree with the essence of her argument...Simenon wrote:
whatnureins wrote:Even if I do not agree with the words, I do agree with the essence.
If you are town, you have only created more suspicions on you and him.Simenon wrote:
Why was it necessary that I do?nureins wrote:If you really think he is town, why havent you tried to explain it carefully ?
do you want me to repeat ?Simenon wrote:
whatnureins wrote: there are plenty of players voting for him ! So your words can only generate more votes on him...
my opinion is:
1. u defend him with reasonable arguments, u decrease the number of votes on him.
2. u defend him without arguments, u increase the number of votes on him and on you...
of course, this is only my opinion, you can have whichever you want.
Oh congratulations, People is wrong and you appear as being correct after the lynch of an innocent...and ?? is this a way to help the town ? I think no...Simenon wrote:
Them's people are wrong. Later in the game, if/when Pope dies, they can look at my statement and know exactly what I felt about Pope. A statement like that has no unnecessary embellishment. I'm a telling it like it is.nureins wrote: [People is telling you that your opinions can only be useful if they are reasoned...otherwise, as I told before, your words can only put tpt under more pressure and this is bad if you think he is town, is that right ??
quickly simply meant without a written reflection. So maybe you had a reflection, but we havent seen it, and you yet do not expose it...even you said it is just your impression, your clinical eyeSimenon wrote:
1. See, there you go again. Your use of "quickly" makes no sense here unless you clarify what it means.nureins wrote: 1. quickly said that TPT was town without any argument.
2.voting the only other participant with a relevant number of votes
2. Good for me. I'm glad I did. Without bandwagons, mafia would be a near impossible game.
There was a bandwagon on TPT. If Bandwagons are the essence of the game, why didnt you remained on it to extract more information? why you tried to deviate attention from this bandwagon to another at this precise moment, instead of defending with arguments the person inside the bandwagon ?
The one way a player can possibly emulate the brilliance that is MeMe is by not stating reasons for why a player is town. In fact, I regret making the original statement. It can only help the scum:Precisely, to know which one is the correct, Id like to know your reasons and carefully describe them. Why TPT is town, why ythill is scum. You seem to be participating a lot. Please do not take things as personal and try to answer the questions of others and to give all of us arguments for a better vote...
1. If a player is established by everyone to be town, it greatly increases the likelyhood for a townsperson to be nightkilled.
2. I am not going to try to move any votes off of someone unless I have a reason other than "this person is a better lynch." Voting is the best possible tool out there for gathering information. I am not going to corrupt that natural process.
Not very precisely, but here you are right. You did.simenon wrote: As for why Ythill is scum, well, I stated my reasons already.
No. My sentence means how could a RATIONAL TOWNIE would do that ??simenon wrote:
Also, I'll note you said "what the hell could lead a townie to vote himself."
So you are noting someone with a rational mind wouldn't vote himself.
But then why would a scum ever want to?
This is the part I cannot understand. This leads me IRRATIONAL TOWNIE OR SCUM. And I have serious doubts on irrationality, given TPT's post, therefore... (you can end up the logical argument). In any case, I asked for information about Voting Oneself, since it is something completely new for me, so I wanted more information.-
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Post 105 was long enough as to clarify each point, especially if they are clear...Cass voted you because of you posting so much with so few words/arguments...I didnt agree with her words, though I did with the essence of this argument. I clarified later why I found you suspicious at first...Post 105, second of my paragraphs...simenon wrote: (about Cass' argument
Explain what that essence is, because it isn't clear to me.
is it not helpful to make assertions ? especially reasoned. I like to make reasoned assertions as to clarify my view on the game and spread my ideas about how/why people could be playing. This is my view of the game, dunno which is yours. Maybe is simply brevity. do you advocate for playing quicly day 1 ? i dont plant this, but making of it a long day...Im in no hurry...simenon wrote: Both you and Cass like to throw out assertions without backing them up, and then when they're questioned, throw out more assertions. It's not helpful or clear.
Also, it is curious that YOU state that CASS and ME are making assertions without backing them. Am I the only laughing at this ? I guess the answer is NO..
Umm curious...so I considered tpt mildly suspicious (he was competing with Ythill in my mind to get the first serious vote) and I WANTED TO DECREASE THE VOTES ON HIM because even for my thoughts, L-2 was exagerated for him. And YOU, who thought he was town, was not interested in decreasing the votes on him ?simenon wrote:See: I have no interest in decreasing the votes on him.
Let's see, which is the word for this attitude ?
You made a non-reasoned assertion. You got a vote by Cass. You improved the number of votes on you. Q.E.D.simenon wrote:Either prove it or stop making the point. Recycling the same argument and not explaining is really, really annoying.
With respect to TPT, it is not your sentence what reduced the number of votes on him. Nobody has taken your words as an argument to cast out a vote. It has been the impression that L-2 and his autovote was too much crazy for his not so much scummy attitude. But thanks to your words, new ppl is looking at him more carefully than they did (I'm doing it, for instance)
First of all, I guess you want Cass to answer this question, asi you quote her. It is curious that in a post in which you put dozens of my quotes, you include one of Cass without clarifying she did. Especially curious when you try to put us in the same basket (you can read your first words in the post to support this assertion...).simenon wrote:1. Show where I've posted "gut feelings" as fact.
2. Show where I've backtracked.
Even if it is not for me, I'll answer anyway.
1.
Clearly, not a very developed form of an opinion and the reasons of such opinion, but simply a statement declaration.simenon wrote:TPT is town, by the way.
2. She did not. Her words were: "It also makes it very easy for him to backtrack on things he has said, LATER IN THE GAME", which was also a reason for which I didnt like an unreasoned statement by you. Pretty clear that no accusation to you of backtracking. Umm, by the way, is backtracking a word for what I let undefined in my debate about decreasing votes ?? umm Im just interrogating, not stating, though Im starting to answer myself that yes...so you didnt want to help tpt...you just put words for other reasons we cannot know...
[quote=
"simenon"]
That's pure crap. You can't seriously be accusing me of crimes I haven't committed, but will. That's plain silly. [/quote]cass wrote: You haven't yet. I will as soon as you start doing it. The excuse 'short posts are good' will not convince me.
Now it is decided.
Vote:Simenon
Who is accusing you of backtracking now or in future? Your posts in which you try to sell the idea that Cass and Me were accusing you of things like backtracking are crap...your insistance is for me very scummish...
Ythill, i have no hurry to lynch people, I think a long day 1 can only help town. So I was not gonna join a bandwagon at L-2 only because I have a mild suspicion of someone. I take stands, and I try to reason them. Indeed, stands evolve, so I would like people to write their stands as much as some other people is doing as to understand better all the positions. you confound taking a stand with casting a vote at a semi-random stage...Ythill wrote: It may be just your posting style, but I'm starting to become suspicious of someone who is willing to say so much without actually taking a stand.
we are just reading about people, and for me this phase can last for 30 pages (in my first mafia game ever, we are finishing day 1 with more than 20 pages, and we are only 9 players). And Id like the phase to last even more...Im old enough as to take notes on what the important things are...-
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habitang wrote:
The way Nureins and Simenon are 'discussing' TPT makes me think they may just be two overzealous Townies if that makes sense.
Also I do not support how some players are reading into every single statement and wording. It makes the game not onyl hard to follow but we start to miss the point of what we were talking about in the first place.matin wrote:(very earlier in the game, about habitang)
I don't have specifics to reference, but this posts struck me as overtly leading. As if you are trying to bait the hook with theories against a couple of players to see if other innocent players pick up on them and run with it..
@habitang: I'm not discussing TPT. I was discussing Ythill vs TPT before. Now I'm discussing Simenon's intervention in that game. Clearly, one of the only promising things in the game before your interventions. (do you prefer telegraphic wording ? I find it more confusing)goat wrote: I also find it interesting that you were the one earlier on who was so worried about scum directing the flow of discussion but yet you've been working so hard to push discussion in various directions yourself.
@Matin, Jahudo: after casting my vote on simenon and waiting for more information on my FOSSED tpt, do you want to discuss on my new
FOS: habitang?
I think Matin's comment and Goat's one are pretty connected. Moreover, habitang is claiming that Simenon and Me distort attention on tpt debate when habitang before crossed some posts with Jahudo because Jahudo was "inflating" a stupid bandwagon on tpt based on funny things...I have to reread all the posts, but habitang:
Did you believe tpt's bandwagon was justified to arrive at L-2 ?
If the answer is YES: why were you "attacking" jahudo ?
If the answer is NO: why do you worry if I'm focusing on a different branch (that is, Simenon's intervention ?)-
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Are you making fun of me ?? are you serious ? I said, Post 105, second of my paragraphs. There you can read my quotation of Cass' words, and which essence of these words I accepted...Simenon wrote:
Here we go again.nureins wrote: Post 105 was long enough as to clarify each point, especially if they are clear...Cass voted you because of you posting so much with so few words/arguments...I didnt agree with her words, though I did with the essence of this argument. I clarified later why I found you suspicious at first...Post 105, second of my paragraphs...
Whatwords?
Whatessence?
Look, Im spanish, so if you want to make riddles with language, Im not gonna follow you. Do it as you want.simenon wrote: Then they cease to be assertions when you reason them.
Definition of Assertion:
a positive statement or declaration, often without support or reason
OFTEN is not ALWAYS. OFTEN means there are lot of ppl who makes assertions without support or reason, as you did in "TPT is town".
I prefer to do them with support or reason, and I typically do...they obviously remain assertions, because they are positive statements or declarations that I do...
Then one of the following two:simenon wrote: Nope. I'm fine if people who I think are town get run up.
1. Either you are scum, in which case you are fine with people who you think are town get run up (and I guess the reason is obvious).
2. You do not assign credibility to your own beliefs. Because I do, and if I think someone is town, I prefer scum to get run up...
simenon wrote:
whatnureins wrote:First of all, I guess you want Cass to answer this question, asi you quote her. It is curious that in a post in which you put dozens of my quotes, you include one of Cass without clarifying she did. Especially curious when you try to put us in the same basket (you can read your first words in the post to support this assertion...).
You wrote a post with a dozen of my quotes...but without specifying it, you include a quote of Cass' words (about backtracking). You mixed her with me, and you misunderstood (in the most benevolent way of thinking) her words and stated that we are accusing you of backtracking...
Please be clear with your quotes. And please do not put in other people's mouth things they have not said...
Why is bad for town that I answered these questions that you did to (me, cass ? who knows to whom you did, since you didnt quote correctly...)simenon wrote:
Hey, that's bad for the town. Don't do that.nureins wrote: Even if it is not for me, I'll answer anyway.
This is false in my opinion. Her comment was very useless, and I do agree with the essence of this argument. Making a statement like you did puts you in a very vague position about TPT. You just say he is town...without specifying why or how...so later in the game, depending on how it goes, you can modify your argument in whichever direction you need. For me, this is very scummish...simenon wrote: When she said so, I responded to it by saying that her comment was useless. It's about as helpful as "I think you're are going to be scum, so I'll vote you." It's a nonreason.
the first sentence is not well formed, as it does not answer my question.simenon wrote:
No, they aren't. Reread the Cass post.nureins wrote:Who is accusing you of backtracking now or in future? Your posts in which you try to sell the idea that Cass and Me were accusing you of things like backtracking are crap...your insistance is for me very scummish...
the second sentence: I already reread it. Cass didnt accuse you of backtracking at any moment.-
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False.Ectomancer wrote:
Nurein has inferred Ectomancer as a voice of authority once too many times for me to trust his motivations.
I dont infer you as a voice of authority.
Summing up:
1. I felt you townie because you followed same patterns of thought I did.
2. I felt you were failing my townie feeling because of your position in TPT
3. I partially accepted I could be mistaken in my analysis of 1 to 4 (in my initial view, 1 or 3 were the mild interesting points, whereas you claimed 2 to be the important...and after simenon's intervention I started to think that 2 could be true)
4. Without writting it down at any moment, I also felt you reacted correctly to tpt and unvoted him later on.
Then 5. you are very wrong but yet welcome to ask me whatever you want...simenon wrote: Cass and Nurein have moved to my top suspects at this point, and I'm more likely to believe that Nurein is pandering scum right now.
vote Nurein
If you want my impression about Cass, I truly believe she is looking for scum in Simenon's comment. For me clearly is something scummish.
And clearly, she is not pushing for simenon's lynch, as he is occupying a "third" position in the TPT-Ythill game (in votes and in importance). Maybe not in bytes, but this is probably only because I write too much, and it seems to me that simenon likes too (what again strikes me up the question of why the hell he did such comment without any reasoning)-
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This is a funny argument. Before voting someone for his writting style, I would have take a read to some of his posts in other games...obviously, you didnt.Ythill wrote:When I said you wouldn't take a stand, it had nothing to do with you not voting. It had everything to do with your extensive use of qualifying phrases. Good townies are not afraid to be wrong and, especially since English is not your first language, I'd think you understand the power of qualifiers to make a statement ambivalent.
1. theory disagreements ?? my initial suspicion is based on simenon's intervention in tpt vs ythill.ythill wrote: Other things I find suspicious: basing your current case on theory disagreements, ]suspicion growing against Sim while his tells have been showing more town than scum, suddenly both taking a stance and making a vote in answer to my accusation, and buddying to Cass.
2. suspicion came into a vote. Why do you think later on he has gone a lot up ? Cass already unvoted him...and I could do the same or not depending on the existence of a better suspect...
3. FALSE. READ MY POST. I WAS ANSWERING POSTS ONE BY ONE. IF I WERE SCUM I WOULDNT USE SUCH RIDICULOUS STRATEGY TO HIDE A VOTE, DONT U THINK ?
But obviously, you havent read my posts very carefully, just you jumped over me the same way you jumped when I mentioned you the first time...too many quick votes for someone who is reluctant to cast votes in the beginning.
At least you could have used Ectomancer's arguments, which were incorrect but credibe (oh, ectomancer, am I claiming your authority again ? now it sounds more like authority, not like townie-reading, haha)
OMGUS vote:
UNVOTE. VOTE: Ythill-
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I yet have you up in my scumeter, so the following words are kind of autotherapy more than claiming your authority.The Pope's Tiara wrote:Infer has an angry sound to it. He inFERS. Imply has sort of a nice ending. He implied that I was pretty awesome in that post.
See?
Oh, and doing a bit of meta-gaming. A scum is 59% more likely to use infer and a townie is 63% more likely to use imply. Statistically, you're more likely to be scum.
I hope you are false, haha, because in my first mafiagame im playing, I already have the feeling to be "dominated" by a player (unfortunately for my ego, an adolescent, haha). As I answered back to Ectomancer, I clearly was simply reading townie words from him and talking them openly...sharing information is the way to win for town, i truly believe it...
I yet read Ectomancer's words as protownie, and I dont think his vote to me and his words were scummy. I could imagine myself asking a similar question to a player like me...
About the IMPLY/INFER point, i better dont give my opinion, my english is horrible...-
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my first "scumeter"
Some scum-hints from up to down...
Ythill. In my view, he has jumped over two persons with very poor arguments. Especially inconsistent with someone that claims early voting is not his speciality and that claims that never goes for early voting...
Simenon. Have the opinion that he is refusing to enter "rational" debates, or if im allowed to judge a bit without offending, behaves arrogant...Im confused about this way of playing. In my view, all town strategy has to be about sharing information about scum attitudes and behaving that way hardly you can communicate with others...
TPT. Very strange feelings with him. TPT is hard to jugde for me right now (due to ectomancer's inquiry on me and subsequent tpt reaction, since im not sure how "pure" my view on him is. This doesnt mean that Ectomancer is intoxicating me negatively, since i clearly think ecto is town, but im thinking myself as extremely influenced by other's opinions in this game and the ecto-tpt debate confirms to me) but I didnt like specially his autovote, as he announces himself as an experienced-rational player.
Habitang. Have had no time to analyze his play in detail, but find his participations "jumping-way". Especially significant is his attack to Jahudo, about which Im yet waiting his answer...
Andycyca: Lot of lurking posting. Desire someone to start a wagon against him at some moment to see his reactions...
From the rest, I have townie reads most of the time...maybe some minor details could be added, but not significant up to now...-
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Andy, you have gone back only until post 118 (by Cass). Please go back until post 115 (by Simenon), in which he is the first that assumes someone has accused him. He says explicitly, SHOW ME WHERE I'VE BACKTRACKED (If i remember correctly). Before 115, No Cass word was saying he did, just saying stating someone is town without any reasoning allows someone to hide a lot of intentions and modify later in whatever direction, and therefore, it is not useful for town but only for scum...Andycyca wrote:
The accusation is right there. Where it says: "you haven't yet. I will as soon as you start doing it". You might argue saying that cass' quote is just a stylish FoS, but why say it? everyone should be looking at everyone's behavior, there's no need to say it again.
I am completely sure that you are able to understand the difference between an OMGUS attitude and someone who "announces" that the following vote can be labelled (only because of formalism) as an OMGUS' vote according to the definition...Andycyca wrote:
Admitting to OMGUS is one of the most antitown attitudes.nureins wrote: OMGUS vote
I'm not against pressure wagons, but I want to know:nureins wrote:Andycyca: Lot of lurking posting. Desire someone to start a wagon against him at some moment to see his reactions...
@nureins: if you wanted to see a pressure wagon on me, why didn't you vote (I'm not within quicklynch, I hope)?
[/quote]
For two reasons. The first, that I had a clear objective, so my vote is casted accordingly. The second, that Ectomancer is yet dealing with his pressure on me, and I do not want him to get lost in the forest with a vote on someone who is just in my scumeter because of absence of posts. So I kindly "asked" to people to start this wagon (and probably Cass who believes that Im town, accepted the invitation).
I do not think you are in quicklynch at all, but Id like to see more words (in this forum, in this game, about this game ) from you to end up forming an opinion.-
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The only thing you have said is :Ythill wrote:
@ nuriens: I said I don't joke vote. Then I explained the difference between that and early voting. Stop twisting my words, scum.
"1. It's my apology for refusing to post a random vote. I try to get a content-based vote out as soon as I have a lead, even if it's a minor one. "
So I'll build on that. Quite funny to me. You dont want to "joke vote", but whatever reason, even if it is a minor one, is valid later for doing a (how to call that?? almost-joke-vote apologizing for what ??). Now few posts later, not only you have moved again from your minor case, now you claim another person is definitely SCUM. And you call that person Scum while you go on camping...great...If you want me to cheer up a debate on how compatible the word scum and myself are, you are welcome...i can be the moderator if you want, since you leave-
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I dont usually follow the advices of those who are in my scumeter and refuse to answer my questions DIRECTLY. If you want them to be repeated, here they are:habitang wrote: I honestly would rather not hear anymore between Nureins and Simenon. I think it is Townie killing Townie.
Did you believe tpt's bandwagon was justified to arrive at L-2 ?
If the answer is YES: why were you "attacking" jahudo ?
If the answer is NO: why do you worry if I'm focusing on a different branch (that is, Simenon's intervention ?)-
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Then I want to know why you Fossed and put pressure on Jahudo if the "attack" towards Tpt was justified. I saw a clear townie sparking debate to see what he could obtained there...and I like his way and the amount of bits he generates (ill give my opinion on that later).habitang wrote:Tpt's bandwagon...hmmm. It was L-2, not that important but anyway. I think it was justified, eveyrone has their opinions and I can see how people would want to vote TPT.
Thanks, in my view nhat have posted about the "relevant" topic so it was ok for me...ill have an eye too as much as I can...jahudo wrote:I looked over nhat's posts again and although he's had one more post than andy, he's only responded to only TPT's words and hasn't said a word about any other player or investigation since his random vote.
is that about my playstyle ? Im not very sure about it. It is my second game ever in life (of any kind). I just think the best for town is to share all the information, to obtain the more hints the better and to spread them. From the first game Im playing I think i probably do tunnel-visions sometimes. But this is not so "dangerous", as we are a lot of people looking for information and "correcting" the information of others. Im open (indeed, probably too much) to take information on other players. So you are welcome to criticize my views all you want to drive them to better spots...jahudo wrote:Sure you're putting a good amount of pressure on one person and I think it's been a good investigation so far, but if you're not in the mindset of the rest of the game too you're going to fall behind once/if you decide to look elsewhere.
THE agent of scum is silence. If you play the game without words, then lynching is probabilistic. The more information you have, the better for town. Now, if you want to add Chaos as a malign agent, that is ok, but it is AN agent, not THE agent.ectomancer wrote:Agreed. Chaos is the agent of scum, and though walls of text can be useful at times, mostly it scatters the attention and causes people to lose focus.
If you are worried about chaos, ask ppl to summarize their scumhunting hints, opinions, etc, so you can follow the game AT THE SAME TIME that you spark discussions the more you can to have the more opinions you can have...
Im not gonna stop writting long posts. I really think they help us. But as I did, I could give answers to some people by enumerating and from time to time, by summing up what ive seen up to the moment...I also asked you not to give people excuses (not accusing you of that, ppl is soooooo susceptible...just asking you to stop this discussion and move to the game. Also, not focusing on you, as Goat, Simenon, nhat, now me and dunno if someone else have participated in this debate. I just selected your quote coz you are the one leading a wagon on me and I prefer to answer you...) for being too concise and hide themselves...-
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That is completely false. I dont try to take any leadership. I want participation to rise, ideas to be debated and people to be questioned. That is a very collective task. And indeed, I have already said I like to combine my thoughts about people with other ppl's thoughts. I dont want to buddy up myself to anyone but I launch my town perceptions the same way I launch my scum perceptions). Im NOT interested in debating minutia (i just debate all, if someone asks or comments, I do...).Matin wrote: Nurein .. Tries to take early leadership position in town by directing conversation, buddies up to players, seems interested in debating minutia that as others have said makes scum hunting harder
If you prefer me not to say anything, rise hands those of you who think I talk too much. Do not worry, if i count too many hands as to feel there is a townie impression that i would better shut up, ill do, and will use only monosyllabs and votes...
but I dont think this is gonna help town at all...
Who is discussing minutia ? me or those COMMENTING AND QUOTING me about this ? Dont get confounded...-
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With that I fully agree.Ectomancer wrote:
You claimed that this is the 2nd game of your life...ever. You can listen to the advice I am giving you or not.
Keep the discussion focused and we are more likely to be successful.
Now please, think again on why nureins was "recognizing your authority" and you will fully realize that precisely, what you first criticized from me and lead you to vote me was indeed admitting:
1. That I'm very open to look for people to help in the task of developing scum-hunting debate.
2. That I'm very open to hear opinions on how to do that in a better way...
And you see that I spend time into clarifying this to you and not to Ythill because your votes were of a very different nature. I can understand yours, and I'm also very tired of stupid debates...-
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For me this is not a excuse. As I said, a player who claims to be experienced and decides not to be "metagamed" and so on and so forth, has read for sure some information in the wiki.Ythill wrote: Pope being experienced but not knowing stuff (self vote, OMGUS) is not a contradiction because he said his experience was from MW and other sites.
At least this is my view, as I did even being an inexperienced one.
Misquoting or Misinterpreting quotes in order to build the image you want on ppl's imaginary was Goebels' strategy. You do much worse than Goebels...Ythill wrote:nuriens wrote: The only thing you have said is :
"1. It's my apology for refusing to post a random vote. I try to get a content-based vote out as soon as I have a lead, even if it's a minor one. "
Look at post #15, which was a reply to your #14, and which you replied to in #16, and then explain to us why you are lying.
My words are an answer to the words in which you claim to have explained the difference between joke and early voting. Post 167 if you came back a bit lost from camping...so I argued that your ONLY explanation had been this line, and I went on the paragraph discussing the weakness of your defense, and how strange is to me that you are having such a very precise image of who scum is after your initial hesitance to joke vote...easily you achieve certainties in the game...
ythill wrote:
I will move my vote as often as I like. Changing one's stance as the evidence changes is good for the town.nuriens wrote:Now few posts later, not only you have moved again from your minor case, now you claim another person is definitely SCUM.
Nothing isdefiniteD1, but it's become pretty obvious to me that you are scum. I don't understand what's wrong with me saying so.
Now hurry up and implicate your buddies so we can lynch you.
This is, I guess, a misunderstanding of my quote. What Im intrigued of is about the SPEED in your movements. If you read my words/posts again, you will understand that Im very surprised that you:
1. Hesitate to random vote
2. Jumped over someone at first glance.
3. Jumped over another one at first glance.
4. You call that person scum
5. You claim that person lies and talk about this person mafia-mates...
My friend, Formula1 is slower than this...since you called me lier, may I call you "snake" ? which movements !!-
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Goebels technique. "If you tell a lie big enough and keep it repeating, people will eventually come to believe it". Read Post 194 again and realize that I already answered you. Ill copy it again for you (sorry for repeating myself !!)Ythill wrote:Goebels isn't playing this game. Let's stick to reality, scum.
5. That personhaslied, or at least hasn't demonstrated otherwise. I didn't talk about your buddies, I told you to.
I might have accepted that you said "hey, I misinterpreted your post. I thought you wanted to say whatever else..." who knows...maybe that would sound credible. Not anymore...Clearly, your post 15 appears much before you "jumped" (this is my opinion merely) over someone and I started to wonder why you quickly voted when you have said you dont joke vote...and it does not explain the quick chain that you have evolved since then, in which your mind is full of certainty about scum when in the first you refused (ok, take that word if you like, im not gonna discuss on words) to vote...nureins wrote:(quoting oneself has to be a sign of egocentrism ) Misquoting or Misinterpreting quotes in order to build the image you want on ppl's imaginary was Goebels' strategy. You do much worse than Goebels...
My words are an answer to the words in which you claim to have explained the difference between joke and early voting. Post 167 if you came back a bit lost from camping...so I argued that your ONLY explanation had been this line, and I went on the paragraph discussing the weakness of your defense, and how strange is to me that you are having such a very precise image of who scum is after your initial hesitance to joke vote...easily you achieve certainties in the game...-
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Let me enumerate to express myself better.Jahudo wrote:
@nureins: I’m a little confused with your current reasoning on Ythill. Are you saying that the discussion hasn’t developed enough for us to have more convidence in a vote than we had in the random voting stage? You seem to be trying to connect his refusal to vote on page 1 with his substance-based votes now. Besides the other points of these accusations, you seem to make a point of this as being contradictory.
Also I don’t understand the Goebels thing, and the points 1-5 (post 194) you just made look like they’re shaped to fit your argument about speedy scums jumping on a wagon. I don't see great differences in speed/decisiveness/confidence between Ythill and others here.
1. Of course, discussion has developed more to have more confidence in our suspicions.
2. What I first connected was his refusal to vote with a first vote that I considered very precipitated. He "jumped" over someone.
3. Then, I connected this with a second vote (towards me) without any serious reason and again I perceived he again jumped over someone.
Two jumps for someone who refused to "joke-vote". Then:
4. He is fully convinced of scumness and starts to use Goebels' way of talking.
In my view, such vertiginous way of acting for someone who appears in his first posts as someone paused who dont joke-vote and prefer to acquire serious opinions is very strange.
Now with respect to the Goebels' way of talking...
- he claimed that I lied, and he did by using a false argument.
- he mantains that lie and keeps repeating it, a well-known strategy for which Goebels was famous.
And with respect to the comparison with other players:
- None of the others refused to vote randomly and "announced" such a paused way of behaving.
- None of the others have arrived to the point of "certainty".
So clearly, the rest of players are quite different.-
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Another one who have doubts for writting long posts ?habitang wrote:I'm sorry. Nureins, your super long posts are way too long and I can't read them. I am starting to have a slight feeling that you may just be scum, what a great scum tactic: have super long posts so that noone reads them, hence avoiding suspicion.
Responsible: the mod of my first game...He told me to try to write all my thoughts in ONE post. I prefer to answer questions separately in one post. This makes me to write 5 posts/day in average, but I do mantain my opinion that this can only be a good strategy for town.
Be careful WHO is reading my long posts and HOW this person is answering them...-
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Im enjoying your show Ythill...
What goebels calls FORCING, I call PROMOTING (maybe u prefer to call itFORCING because in 14 i directed a question to you, did you feel bad ?). I also like to answer those talking with me, and this is what 20 was for matin.Ythill wrote:
Starts forcing conversation through serious questions as early as #14 and theory debate by #20. (null)
Goebels again. I DIDNT MENTION ANYONE AS POSSIBLY IMPLICATED IN 38-39. COMPLETELY FALSE. This 7 players (and me) were the PARTICIPANTS in the debate, so I asked them for their opinions on my particular view about you... (again you act as Goebels when your name appears...)Ythill wrote: Names 7 of 12 players as possibly implicated in #38-39. Gives ambivalent “town-soft” reads on two of them, with little new evidence, in #53. (scum)
Goebels again. It is not "my declared townies, yourself and the lead suspect". It is "my declared townies (if you want to call them that way, that is ok) and MY TWO SUSPECTS. Everyone can read the post and see that I supported 1 and 3 as the more credible in an early stage...I said, for you and all to remember:Ythill wrote: Posts the “which is a joke?” quiz (#58) to his declared townies, myself, and the lead suspect. The examples all shed suspicion on two opposed players. The post leaves a very obvious exit from any attempt to discredit it (scum).
1. Ythill QUICK vote after saying he doesnt like random-joke votes...
Again Goebels when the post refers to you, it is funny...
By the way, one of my declared townies, Ectomancer, made me to look a bit apart from you for some time, and to focus more on TPT and Simenon...give thanks to him...it is of good people to give thanks. By the way, Ecto, up to now Im ok with your wagon, but I want to hear your opinions on Goebels-snake...(you are a bit hidden, lets say )
Perfectly compatible. I found him A BIT SUSPICIOUS. And having someone just a bit suspicious at L-2 is not a good idea. We have played 25 pages/day 1 in my first game, we have lynched a townie, and I wanted more pages...Im in no hurry of lynching anybody, especially if I find him A BIT SUSPICIOUS. But you like speed, that is clear to me...Ythill wrote: Considers Pope “a bit suspicious” while coaching him in #65 (scum).
I do not understand this. Are you saying I stopped reading Ecto as Town ?Ythill wrote: Changes his Ecto read with the evidence (town) and puts words in Jah’s mouth (scum) in #71.
Because this is again FALSE. I havent changed my read on Ecto during all the game (not too much, I mean). He left the deepness of my scumeter but never arrived to a high level. If you read the post again, you will see I said that my answer to my own question was NO, I DIDNT FIND ECTO SUSPICIOUS.
GOEBELS again, I DIDNT PUT ANY WORD IN JAHUDO'S MOUTH. I guessed from his unvote to Ecto that he didnt find him suspicious. But of course, I wanted him to make it verbal to understand the reasons better. Why do you think I ASKED HIM ?
Again, where is the trouble ?ythill wrote: “Beautiful dance” post (#75) suspecting all three players in the most current drama. Confirms his vote while saying, of it “randomness has not disappeared a lot.” (scum)
I said, Im putting my attention in these 3 people. I havent "decided" on them. My vote was on you among the three of them due to a "random" reason, so I wanted to point out that the reason was partially random. And I was extracting more info on the 3 of you and ready to cast more "serious" votes...
GOEBELS again. Without taking a solid stance ?? What do you call a solid stance ?ythill wrote: WOW (#105-107) is a study in ambivalence, “answering” all questions without taking a solid stance. Interpretation could take things either way. Uses the outs he seeded in #58. Coaches Pope twice. Avoids a direct question about his stance by claiming he’d already answered it (major scum).
What I announced in my previous post became true. I Fossed tpt and simenon, probably influenced by "depending" too much in ecto. Something that curiously, provoked a vote from him to me. Now Im happy, because I was able to see your new jump on me and perceive that you are scummier than they two. This doesnt mean I stopped having suspicions on them. Indeed, I do have. You are very fast in making conclusions. I am not, and I like to see the game developing. So I took a solid stance. But for you, solid stance maybe is a different thing.
Yes, I again adviced TPT for the same reason than before. L-2 was too much for him according to my suspicions. Of course, you do not joke vote but maybe like to lynch quick, who knows...
I do not see here your point about "minimizing" my own suspicions. You do not describe what u mean.ythill wrote: Second WOW (#111) minimizes his own suspicions, attacks Sim for null tells, eluding that he is scum and Pope is town. Uses the “too rational to be a townie” argument (scum).
I dont attack Sim for null tells. I considered (and yet consider) a bad issue that he defended TPT without any reasoning...
Eluding that sim is scum and pope town ? where have you read that ? Ill call you Merlin-Goebels-Snake from now on...
"too rational to be a townie" argument ?? My argument was:
- First, that some people were incorrect by assuming his autovote was an emotional/newbie issue, as TPT himself denied it.
- Second, that for me was very strange that a townie, being so rational as he claimed, behaved in that Autovote way.
I think it is pretty clear...
False again. Look, you can read back again this post and observe that one of my arguments against Sim was that he used the "GOEBELS" technique, in which you are an expert.ythill wrote: Third WOW (#128) makes slippery arguments against Sim, using them to finally take a stand (as well as vote) immediately after I have called him out for being wishy-washy. He does this while claiming that he’s in no hurry and trying to convince us of a semi-random stage (scum).
1. He misquoted.
2. He accused (Cass and Me) of him having backtracked.
3. It was pretty clear that neither Cass nor me had done.
But he wrote it in the Goebels' way:
I copy it to you, so you can recognize your way of misquoting-manipulating.
To put in perspective, Cass wrote the first paragraph. Simenon inserted it in a long post dedicated to me (with 12 of my quotes). Since Cass and Me were debating him, that clearly can be interpreted as a confussion if you want, but he created the view that Cass and Me were ONE against him, and we were ACCUSING him of something with that "null tell" that we never did...simenon wrote:
1. Show where I've posted "gut feelings" as fact.I do not like Simenon's explanation. Posting gut feelings (for that's what it was...) as if they are facts confuses things. And even more so in the long run. It also makes it very easy for him to backtrack on things he has said, later in the game. My vote stays where it is.
2. Show where I've backtracked.
You seem to be an expert on that. Since Sim only used this technique ONCE, i can accept a misunderstanding in his side, so that is ok, he won my vote for some time until you jumped over me when ectomancer just was smelling around...your technique
I find this absurd. First, clearly I dont know where you read i was "territorial". Moreover, if i were a scum lynching a townie, I wouldnt like to be territorial at all...Probably i was more territorial in a different post, let me find it for you, so you can use it as a proper argument...ythill wrote: In #129 he’s territorial (not sure if that’s the right word) about his treatment of Sim (null).
oh here it is, about some words on Matin:
"I saw it that way before TPT, I also want a bandwagon !! "
Because people were accusing of TPT for something I have commented first somehow...This is territorial if you want...
For much you call it BASELESS ARGUMENTS, they are not...Goebels in action again...ythill wrote: In #144 argues semantics, offers a false dichotomy, and continues baseless arguments against Sim (scum).
With respect to the misquote, which one is it ?? I havent misquoted in 146...ythill wrote: A confusing misquote in #146 just makes me wonder if he’s paying attention (null), but he goes on to use his earlier ambivalence tactically, invite suspicion, and give a baseless townie read on Cass (scum, though some are very mild).
funny, so we got you...GIVING A BASELESS TOWNIE READ ON CASS is scummy !!!
hahaha
Clearly, my read on Cass was based in our Simenon experience, in which I perceived that she was scum-hunting. Very different to Simenon on TPT that was simply "tpt is town", totally baseless...and that curiously, u dont find scummy
Here Im tired and have to work. Ill probably not follow answering, as I have perceived that you
- Are very bad scum that do not mind to misquote and lie around.
- Are so tunnel-visioned that interpret everything incorrectly.
So it is a nonsense to follow. People have enough up to here. If some other has a doubt on some point, please ask me.-
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Umm I thought Ectomancer at first, but seems he is not.Ythill wrote: Besides, who's bandwagoning?
Ecto, I want to know your opinion, dont be shy, that somebody already pointed me out that you could be "influencing me too much" and I dont want to think this is true...(of course, a joke, because Ythill is gonna read from this post that you are my top scummy, and clearly, i yet read townie..)-
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Scumeter=Scum Thermometer. Up to down, from Hottest (most scum vibes) to Coldest (less scum vibes). This is the list from which I got some feelings, and I just summed up those feelings very shortly...obviously, they just reflect my largelyyyyyyyyy stated positions during previous posts...it is clear that they "follow" my evidence and accusation...but this guy just misquotes and misunderstands (probably on purpose)habitang wrote:
Hardly a major scum tell, all he said was this:YtHill wrote: does not follow the progression of evidence/accusation as stated by its author (major scum).
I don't even get what Nureins is trying to say there. Scum-hints? it is like he is giving scum tips on how to win, from 'up to down'? WHat in the world? Sorry NUreins at criticising your English, it is actualyl quite good since you are playing in a forum, it is just these little thigns that confuse us.Nureins wrote:Some scum-hints from up to down...
This is pretty obvious. For me 1 and 3 were the only partially promising, and I was clear in my post. Indeed, Ectomancerhabitang wrote: For me, I don't think he set-up the backdoor since he pretty much used it as soon as he said it. Like it was pretty explicit that he thought No. 2 and 4 were stupid ideas, which he posted anyway.impliedorinferredthat 2 was the most promising and given my town read on him and subsequent interventions (by tpt and simenon) it also grew up as a possibility for me. My positions have been very clear and I doubt there is some vagueness on them.-
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This was Ectomancer's idea, about me buddying him. That is pretty interesting, if i discovered someone buddying me or I would have doubts on that, I would clearly ask that person, having scum vibes.habitang wrote: Okay now to investigate: My first impression was that NUreins seemed to be buddying up to eveyrone! I agree with you on this, I agree with you on that!
For that, I took Ecto's vote and question perfectly adequate and I already answered him.
Ythill only mentioned Cass in his vote towards me, and buddying was not his "major" reason to vote me. He did so just because Cass and me were fighting simenon a bit. Curiously, Cass and me were fighting simenon because of his BASELESS defense of tpt, mainly. And he claims im buddying scum because i BASELESSLY called Cass townie. I already explained this in my previous long post. Ill not insist...you can go and read.-
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At the risk of buddying...some comments for your actions/opinionsCass wrote: The one who is rapidly rising as a suspect is TPT. Where is he? He's lurking like there is no tomorrow, after not having cotributed yet at all. Goatrevolt also stays far too much on the sidelines.
Unvote
Vote: The Pope's Tiara
FoS: Goatrevolt
1. your unvote is ok to me, but I yet want andy to participate more...
2. I agree with your vote because TPT has used long boring posts to hide himself a bit..but he commented some issues, so Im not sure if he is hidding or just realizing that the pressure on him was excessive (both if he is town or scum) and things need to be calmed down...I didnt observe he COMPLETELY hided...
3. The part with which I less agree is Goat. His last post was "ill try to do blabla tonight"...i dont think his absence is very scummy, but probably a temporary issue due to some occupation....when he participated, he did in a rational-put in precise terms way...I do think he is townie and especially important not to fall in dumb discussions...
I have metagamed him a bit and he is playing several games at the same time in a volume that perfectly explain "some" absence...however, if your Fos is useful to make him participate, that is ok...-
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Maybe because Im not "defending" as Goebels would say, but participating in a debate...so I try to comment on everyone ideas if I can, and to answer issues about me when they appear...Ythill wrote:
@ nuriens: I noticed that you defended yourself against null tells and even one town tell. Did you not realize that the parenthetical words null, town, and scum were meant to identify the tells? This is an honest question. I just cannot see whyanyonewould post a defense to a town tell.
With respect to your words for habit: I dont think he MISUNDERSTOOD you. I think you didnt explain you correctly. This is what happens when you "make a case" on someone by reading his posts and summing up a post like you did, saying...
in which as i commented, first you were incorrect by SOFTENING MY SUSPECT ON YOU and STRENGHTENING MY SUSPECT ON TPT, and second, you didnt explain which "exit" u refered too...he interepreted it in an obvious way according to his post...I found his answer quite acceptable, probably due to his better englishythill wrote: Posts the “which is a joke?” quiz (#58) to his declared townies, myself, and the lead suspect. The examples all shed suspicion on two opposed players. The post leaves a very obvious exit from any attempt to discredit it (scum).
Your point to Cass is totally incorrect, since as i told u, first im not defending, second im trying to clarify all the circumstances for all players, even if they insist in applying a TWIST-WORDS-CREATE-AN-IMAGE-INSIST-A-LOT...
And for you to see that I can even accept that everybody can suffer this problem here, with respect to you, some of your posts made me think you are tunnel visioning me incredibly...some others made me think you acted childishly and there is a chance that your Goebels' technique is just something you cant
either stop using because it is in ur personality or because you cannot accept openly that you have gone too far away with your judgements...
Having said all that, you are yet my first suspect due to my main argument, which has NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR GOEBELS' TECHNIQUE. Again you did. You claimed that my "main defence was that you were misinterpreting me". And that way you focus attention on me and erase my critics on you...
Maybe you can read my posts dedicated to other players, I try to clarify their doubts...
Id like to clarify yours, but it is impossible. For one reason (you are scum) or for another (you are townie with Goebels personality)
Lets start again. Have read all my posts and havent seen that my main reason to have u as a suspect is your sudden evolution during the game ?? speed, remember ? acceleration, fast, quick, sudden jump, Im sorry for being spanish and not having more vocabulary, given that some people is debating about such nonsense. That is not an argument, I have expressed very very clearly my reasons for considering Ythill scum. But if you want to go on twisting them...-
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I find it quite reasonable. The only problem is that if I follow your advice, Ill move to TPT and our dear friend ythill will tell very bad things of meCass wrote: A (perhaps starnge) request for the both of you: could you please each make a case on anyone that isn't the other? It would really help me compare.-
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Im not lost with my quotes with Ythill. Now Ive stopped due to some petititons by the audience. But indeed I could largely answer to his repetitive points. Again I offer to anyone who ask me about any of the points raised by Ythill...habitang wrote:Initial feeling. OMGUS. But I appreciate you didn't do the whole PbPa, and focused especially on my playign style. I hate scrolling though heaps of quotes (I'm probably in teh wrong game eh?) I used to do it, but it always got thrown back at me and I lost credibility. Pretty much same way I feel about Nureins atm actually.
So do not please conform a view of me which is, to my view, pretty incorrect...as far as I can see, I havent lost "credibility" around...if you think so, you are welcome to the wagon.
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In my new "assigned" newbie condition, probably my words will be thrown away in this debate. But Id simply postpone this stupid thing. We are gonna collect all the information. 3 days before an hypothetical deadline, Im open to hear about "no lynchs", and ill most likely refuse them...now, it is just muddying the waters.Jahudo wrote:
Also I say a no-lynch day causes us to learn far less than say investigating multiple people and deciding on a lynch. With a lynch we have supporters and dissenters and their alignment adds to the conversation in the next day.-
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Welcome Tritch.Tritch wrote:So it's day one; most votes have been made off of jokes or small leads. But I notice that three people have voted for me with still no substantial information. Perhaps one person made the original joke vote, and two scum followed with the already town-made vote because they know that I am not one of them. Jahudo has been fighting aggressively as town, so perhaps we should set our sights on nhat and Cass?
Since Im gonna follow the recommendation and adhere to other of my top suspects, lets start.
Why have you AVOIDED the inclusion of Ectomancer in your list ???
I REMEMBER very very well how he voted you, as this started a bit of chaos in my mind...-
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Just to answer you properly, first of all, I picked TPT, not Tritch. With Sim I already had a intense debate and I have the feeling that I cannot extract anything else from him vis a vis. This does not mean of course he is out of my radar. Same to you, he remains high in my radar but I consider better not to go on vis a vis and to look from outside a little bit. Impressions are better formed in that way (though of course, you do not get the type/magnitude of impressions that you achieve in a vis to vis). So probably a combination of Outside and Inside impressions on everybody is what I'm looking.Ythill wrote: @ nuriens: Why did you pick Tritch and not Sim for your current case?
For that, even if I have already read that this is "too long" from lot of experienced players, I would not mind to extend this phase up to the moment in which I could have had a intense vis a vis debate with any of you. But do not allow me to start "theory" debates. I talk too much and I've seen already some comments by some people in that direction-
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A couple of comments on Matin after taking a look:Simenon wrote:Vote matin
Hasn't said anything controversial or substantive, except in a defense of him/herself (what is your gender, by the way?)
I think we should pressure somebody who doesn't talk as much right now.
- Maybe that is not relevant, but 30 per cent of the lines of his posts are own comments, 70 per cent are quotes. Would like to metagame it, dunno if playstyle or as Simenon says, just not participating. And in the latter case, that percentage could mean he appears to be.
- His last post gives some opinions. I already answered his suspicions on me. I find correct his suspicions on Habitang, meaning that he is explaining in a fair way reasons he has over him and fit somehow with my view of habitang. He mainly shares his view on TPT with me...
Umm Im a bit lost with him. In my mind he was not a lurker before you mentioned. Now I do not consider him so passive, but neither as active as I thought.-
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Curious. I found two games by Matin.
In both of them, the quota/own ratio was 50 per cent.
In both of them, he was mafia.
Not significative, with only two games. But if anything, having more quotes seems not to mean something scummy in his side.
What about his replacement ? In my view, that could be interpreted in several ways:
- If he is a passive player, either he had some occupation or this game as townie is less exciting that his two goon games.
- If he is an active player, either he had some occupation or he is tired of the same side of the story (Im already desiring to try the other side !!)
Having metagamed him a bit and reading his posts and the amount of bits he writes, I bet for the first scenario, so I mantain my (now softy) townie reads on him waiting for new comments by his replacement...-
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@all:
-We are relaxing now.
-We are lazy now.
- We have allowed Tritch to enter the game passively without answering any of the issues TPT raised, and without analyzing deeply anything. Tritch, welcome...
VOTE: TRITCH
Id like you to answer about:
1. What do you think of TPT's autovote and attitude ?
2. was that emotional or rational ? in the latter case, which is your opinion about the reason ?
3. You described votes on TPT as reasoned/unreasoned, lets say, and you pointed out 3 ppl. Id like you to describe one by one the votes on TPT that you consider reasoned (if you also do with the unreasoned, that is even better)-
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Goatrevolt wrote:
I really dislike the recent push on Habitang, and a lot of those votes seem all too opportunistic. After reading through the thread, my top 3 suspects were Andycyca, Ectomancer, and Jahudo. I was somewhat suspicious of Ythill, mainly because I thought his top two targets of Nureins and Habitang were soft, easy targets, but his hesitance to jump on the Habitang wagon here gives me better vibes about him.
I agree in the basics. I find Habitang partially suspicious, though I relaxed these suspicions due to Cass' first arguments (his previous game with her shows the same kind of erratic and poor playstyle). The latter participations showed his need of fast posting-voting, which can be understood as playstyle or as scummy in my view. So I fully understand that Cass Fossed him and voting him is also more or less correct. I agree with you about Ythill, and therefore I'm going to reread a little bit our tense debate. Maybe there was even more of tunnel vision in both sides than I arrived to believe.
However, I didnt understand your "Ectomancer"'s comment. That was strange to me, so I analyzed the votes to look for it. And seems it was a mistake, right ?
The votes on habitang were (with my opinions):
1. nhat. He started the wagon. Even if I do not share all the arguments, I respect the essence of the "attack", as I said that I also find Habitang up in my suspects and he had not received any vote or attention more than superficial.
2. Simenon (and not Ectomancer) ! He just said...oh, i agree with nhat, lets put pressure.
3. Andycyca. Also lot of quotes and agreement with the attack.
4. Jahudo. Jahudo's post is more reasoned, not hidding in the forest of posts. Moreover, Habitang was insisting too much on him with very strange posts, so I perfectly understand his reaction.
Definitely, I also find the attack a bit exagerated, though it will be useful to either listen a bit more about habitang or to calm down him if he is a nervous townie. I guess Goat pointed out to Simenon (and not Ectomancer), Andy and Jahudo in his post. In my view, I consider the latter of these (Jahudo) perfectly natural, and want Simenon and Andy to post longer ideas on why he just "agreed" with nhat in the description...instead of looking for their own motivated reasons...-
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Perfect. Then my previous post remains as my opinion on habitang voters, and Ill comment more on your 3 suspects when you elaborate.Goatrevolt wrote: My top 3 suspects are not necessarily those voting for habitang, which seems to be a point of confusion.
Im not trying to defend him, so let him to answer if it is justified or not. I just found it natural, and reading his vote-post, I havent found anything exagerated...of course, if the votes on habitang have been precipitated, I do not think all of them are equivalent, so I tried to expose my view...Goatrevolt wrote:
Jahudo's reaction was not a surprise based on habitang's pushing of him all game, but that doesn't make it justified.
Let's see if habitang's dance and your reflections make us to stop our lazy way-
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Simenon wrote:
The opportunistic club. I don't see why that necessarily has to refer to voting.Goatrevolt wrote:
Out of what?Simenon wrote:I noticed you're leaving out Cass, Goat.
Given that she is the only person not voting, but fossing, instead of discussing about something immaterial, discuss on something material...Cass action...
Do you think Cass was opportunistic in fossing him ?
If this is the case, is your vote more opportunistic than her Fos or less oportunistic ?-
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Ok Thanks. I was including Matin after somebody mentioned him. In the case of Andycyca, if this may help you, I have a curious impression. I found him participating, so I do not feel anymore he is a lurker. His posts have content, so that is ok. He is just very neutral in emotions, and then he lives in a "heaven". So this does not mean he is a lurker. My lurkers' vibes come from tritch, nhat and matin.Cass wrote: Tritch is numero uno obviously. The other are Nhat and Andycyca, who seem to be lurking in plain sight. I think there's a scum among them, I wish they would post more so I could find him... I'm not sure I should include Matin, as he is being replaced.
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Just to make a bit of fun, andy is quite different to Ectomancer, for instance. The latter I guess VOLUNTARILY adopts the position of a buddhist or a jedi master-
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Ythill, Im reading positively from you lately, so do not take my words as an attackYthill wrote: (@sim)... what do you think of a player who is crafty enough to employ this tactic but daft enough to time it so poorly?
I had the same impression from Habitang since the very beginning. Indeed, if you contemplate a bit the game, Cass is CONSTANTLY worried about what habitang can make in the game... have you seen it ? At some moments I found it excessive indeed.
If you remember, I think I did a read of this game at the beginning, and I understood what Cass meant about Habitang.
After some people started to point out suspicions on Cass, and having read her insistance about habitang, I decided to re-read the game, because she was townie for me...
A careful read confirmed my first read and I extracted no suspicions on Cass. I believe she is really worried about the bad play of habit, and habit is so erratic that is very hard to read...-
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i know that i promised to analyze your post on your suspects, Goat. But the first reading about it, I had a strange impression. So I need lot of time.Goatrevolt wrote:
I feel pretty strongly about Jahudo as scum, but of course there is always some doubt.
You put lot of heavy arguments on someone I believed town. Especially coz habitang was the one who erratically (and frankly, very badly) pointed out to Jahudo. Maybe I was tempted to read him as townie as he was defending against such crap. And now, after habit stops pointing to jahudo ythill joins you. Someone that is going down in my vibes but yet high (answering to ythill, I have not completely changed my view, "my buddy", I read your posts as more townie later, that is different...)
Allow me to re-read deeply to answer you. Feel free to use me as a devil's advocate as Ill probably defend Jahudo.
With respect to Ectomancer, I didnt understand his vote on TPT, as I mentioned to him, but his vote on me is ok. He was trying to shake me on my attitude.-
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Finish re-read.
Indeed, I yet find TPT scummy to a point. I suppose he is also waiting for Tritcht's participation.
Here you are mostly right. I did not like that one. But I found a possible reason for the "FOS". In the first part of this post, Jahudo was forced to insist on the previous mistake he had committed. This is not good for ego. In the second part, habitang was telling him something "bad" based on words of other person. This was not his mistake, so he reacted a bit harsh. This together with a series of erratic attacks by habitang lead to a (probably) inappropiate FOS. With respect to the rest of points, the coaching on habitang is perfectly understandable, due to habitangs' strange way. And it is also consistent along the game. He has chosen two of the most erratic players, he votes for them and explores them "his way".goatrevolt wrote: Post 104: I really dislike his FoS on habitang there. Does habitang misattributing a quote make him more likely to be scum?
I'm open to consider your points, which are partially convincing and changed a bit my view with the re-read. While I wait for Jahudo's words, let me provoke you a bit to extract more on all that.
1- Do you think I am right in my point that Jahudo was consistent ?
Because if you answer yes, I want to understand better the following. Andycyca was "consistent" in attacking some people for acting in concrete ways, even without considering the circumstances or the behavior of these players. This is like acting "theoretically", following a very rigid way, and for some people could be scummy (it was for you a little bit as he was in your list, right?). But you considered him less suspicious for being consistent.
Jahudo, simplifying, could have been doing something scummy as attacking/coaching/stopping couple of erratic players. Ok, I buy a little bit of all that.
2- But shouldnt consistency reduce your suspicions on him ?
If the answer is not, and this is the whole point of all this long post (sorry, really, I try but I cant. And english does not help )
3- Which are the differences among the two cases ? which of the two attitudes would scum choose to behave with, most probably and why ?-
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nureins 100% Pure
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sorry, I copied my post from a text-document and I copied only half. Please add this before the other part
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Ill try to resume some comments on Jahudo. Of course, they do not answer all your points on him. That is his task, and Ill read it very carefully...
I selected a couple of quotes just to start my mind-work and then elaborate a little bit on most of your points.
In post 77, Jahudo committed a mistake due to a misunderstanding. If I have followed it correctly, he admitted it later (and more follows with habitang). Later, as you also point out, Jahudo explains in Post 137 why he refuses to vote tpt at the moment. This is in my view consistent with his playstyle, as he is not hurrying in votes or attacks to different people. It seems to me that he is observing and updating his scumeter until some people reach a very consistent scum position. In post 149 he voted for tpt due to a new bad intervention. I might consider this a quick change of mind at most, but I can interpret it very clearly. He "gaved" a chance to tpt and tpt decided to go on scummy, so he voted for him. Also, this explains the "coaching". He was observing him and shaking his attitude. TPT reacted very incorrectly and he voted for him.goatrevolt wrote: ]There's an issue here. Jahudo is not and has not voted for TPT at all. He tosses suspicion on him whenever possible, but if he's so certain that TPT is scum, certain enough to make that statement to Simenon, then why hasn't he voted him?
Indeed, I ...GO TO POST 365
Funnily, Cass again had similar vibes to me. Again at the risk of buddying, he is like an iceberg in my scumeter...-
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nureins 100% Pure
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