Mini 645 - Innocence Falls (Game Over)

[nureins]

Hello.

Hmmmmm.... all new faces, except Andy, who modded a game I was in. This game is going to be meta-free for awhile, at least from my PoV.

Yet a friendly question: Why have you avoided to vote ?

Vote: Ythill

[nureins]

@ nureins: Never joke-voted, never will. I'll vote soon enough, and it will be with purpose.

But thanks for asking.

you are welcome...these first steps are for that I guess...for instance, matin's words that I wouldnt comment at an advanced part of the game...

cause he voted for the guy I wanted to vote for

I know it is almost a joke, but why didnt you yet vote for the guy you wanted to vote for ? two votes are far from being relevant...

[nureins]

@matin

If we hide things/actions/thoughts etc because they "might" appear as suspicious, we are in a bad path...this can only help scum as they can hide in the forest...

The more information we discuss on eachother, the better...in any case, I simply wanted to launch debate to share the more information and to avoid people's silence...so u do not need to comment too much on why you didnt voted that way. The random stage is pretty uninformative until people is forced to talk...

[nureins]

@TPT
I dunno how you saw it this way, but will I use it as an excuse to start a bandwagon? You bet!

I saw it that way before TPT, I also want a bandwagon !!
Now seriously, after all the posts about the topic, I see two things in Matin's words:

1) that he felt Jahudo stole his vote for ectomancer. This part is what Matin used as any other reason he could use to make a "joke" vote on jahudo. And this is the part that Goatrevolt and Jahudo pointed out. I do not find this part very relevant, as I take Matin's way of voting as any joking way.

2) that he "changed" his mind from voting when jahudo stole the vote. I pointed out this question and later TPT insisted. In my view, not a very serious issue, so I just raised a question delicately to Matin in order to see his answer. I agree that he shouldnt be worried about putting a second vote on someone, and that hidding in the forest is not a good help for us...we do not need townies hidding if they are townies...now I want more words from Matin-jahudo-TPT-Goatrevolt-nhat to clarify my mind...

[nureins]

Ectomancer and Habitang also participated, so clearly I want to hear them too about these issues..

From Matin-Jahudo-TPT-Goat-nhat-ectomancer-habitang I found Ectomancer's words (even if they attack also me because I insisted like TPT) as the most pro-town, as he tried not to do a mess from a very minor issue that i just commented by passing in a friendly way...

[nureins]

I saw it that way before TPT, I also want a bandwagon !!
Now seriously, after all the posts about the topic, I see two things in Matin's words:

1) that he felt Jahudo stole his vote for ectomancer. This part is what Matin used as any other reason he could use to make a "joke" vote on jahudo. And this is the part that Goatrevolt and Jahudo pointed out. I do not find this part very relevant, as I take Matin's way of voting as any joking way.

2) that he "changed" his mind from voting when jahudo stole the vote. I pointed out this question and later TPT insisted. In my view, not a very serious issue, so I just raised a question delicately to Matin in order to see his answer. I agree that he shouldnt be worried about putting a second vote on someone, and that hidding in the forest is not a good help for us...we do not need townies hidding if they are townies...now I want more words from Matin-jahudo-TPT-Goatrevolt-nhat to clarify my mind...

Is this serious? The vote was entirely random as was the reason.

Let me get this straight, your theory is that I am scum who was afraid to draw the spotlight on myself by placing a second joke vote on someone, so instead, I drew the spotlight by announcing my fear to do so?

My theory is that you made a joke vote, that I took the relaxed chance to ask you about "not putting a second vote on someone"...that you answered you didnt want to be "suspicious", and that I agree with ectomance that this is NOTHING and that we are far away from somebody being too suspicious...Just I take notes about all the reactions on this game...as this could be useful later...

precisely, u announced such a fear, and then i stopped thinking too much, as i took it as a townie reaction...
my answer to you was precisely that id like you (and others, all townies) to be so townie and not hidding things all the time...just dont be afraid to expose your thoughts and votes...this can only help scum by putting a nebulose on you...

clearly i dont think u are scum and i dont think ectomancer is scum as he clearly gave no importance to all this stupid issue... (of course, these are pretty vague impressions, but im happy to have a couple of town-soft-impressions to start with...)


is it more clear now ?? ASK if you have any doubt

[nureins]

It's a head scratcher. I'm assuming it's a joke post and she's merely trying to upstage me on the whole suspicious joke post thing..

Hey Matin, which part is a joke ? (ectomancer, you are welcome to give your opinion on that too...) and of course Ythill and pope are welcome too

1. Ythill QUICK vote after saying he doesnt like random-joke votes...
2. pope INSISTING on you so much
3. tpt voting back to Ythill in an OMGUS way
4. They playing to vote each other to DISTANCE in a semi-random phase...

which of them is a joke and which of them is more probable to be true ?

I do not claim none of them is, just asking you which one is more probable...we have to enjoy some adventures in the beginning of the game...if you want my opinion, i especially didnt like 1 and 3. (2 is clearly due to a misunderstanding on Matin's answer and the head scratcher thing...and 4 is ridiculous for what they are playing, haha, i could not believe such stupid play can be preplanned...so 1 and 3...but i have my doubts if one of them is relevant...

[nureins]

Oh that was a simulpost, almost, thx Ectomancer for answering about my point
so 2...though I was not very focused on 2...
what about 3 then ?? I want to know ur opinion...

[nureins]

Oh, P.S.

Unvote, Vote: The Pope's Tiara

I can do this right? Since you all seem to hate me and are obviously so much better at this game then I, you might as well lynch me first.

tpt, this is completely antitown...if you are town, how do u help us this way ? if you are scum, you would deprive us from discussing with a quick lynch. In any case, your vote doesnt help town at all !!!

do not get the comments of other people so personal, nobody is attacking you...

you are risking also a lynch by scum, please reconsider and unvote yourself...

After that of course, Ill consider you a bit suspicious for some of the things around, but not so much to put you at L-1...

[nureins]

Intially I read the whole thing as newbie like, but I need to meta game a bit to see if Pope really is new to the game.

Good, I expected that of you (Ectomancer, noc noc, you are failing us )
If we dont do it quick, that game is gonna explode, so Ill try to follow you and comment back if you want...please try to ask me in a direct way, Im a bit busy these days so clear questions help...

[nureins]

@nureins, my initial reaction to Ectomancer is that he has seen thing kind of thing in random voting stages before and by joking about it himself does not see any serious harm; that an accuser does not have much to go on and a defender hardly has to defend themselves.

unvote

It seems this random vote is exploding...I want to know your opinions in the 4 points I wrote before (feel free to say all of them are ridiculous, i almost think they are ) and in the following extra two

5. Ectomancer thinks all is a joke but he doesnt understand that tpt might also be joking and casts on him a fourth vote, SUSPICIOUS?

6. I ask u this because you are the only not voting now, and u unvoted ectomancer, so i guess your answer to five is NO (mine is also no) but want to know how you perceive all this struggle...random voting is typically unvoted when u put ur vote on someone else , were u planning to do it ?

you can ask in a very simple way, i know they r too many questions...just a few words saying the ideas are "ridiculous" or "almost impossible" "interesting" "promising" etc would help ...

Might you help us with the tpt metainformation ? that guy put a fifth vote on him !!

[nureins]

I dont think I failed us, as he definitely squealed and we've had reactions to that.

However, I'm also not certain I am prepared to yield to Simenon's assessment of TPT either.

I dont think it either Ecto. I put a big laugh in my comment. The point was that lot of people is joining an almost laughable wagon. So I made a bit of fun in the fact that you did too.

Im writting down the reactions of all people in this beautiful dance people is playing around pope and ythill. Of course a bit of scummish attitude can be extracted from pope (and from others around). And if you see Simenon's last action, I'm not prepared either. He JUMPED over Ythill as a fast runner. Let's see what appears from all this debate.

I mantain the vote on Ythill but I announce randomness has not disappeared a lot...after this beautiful dance among so many players I might be ready to cast a less random vote.

[nureins]

(@Simenon)I dislike how you make many posts, but with little content. Enough reason to change my random vote into a non-random one.

Even if I do not agree with the words, I do agree with the essence. Even most of my thoughts are already posted by others.

What I did not like especially from Simenon was two things. First, just saying that someone is town when that person is at L-2. If you really think he is town, why havent you tried to explain it carefully ? there are plenty of players voting for him ! So your words can only generate more votes on him...

Sure you can still have fun with posts but a self-vote isn’t funny. It gives the impression that you are possibly bluffing, which doesn’t help town, or possibly can’t take criticism, which could mean you go defensive and overly cautious.

At some point, I was tempted to accept TPT's behavior as newbie and/or as very emotional...and I was interested into confirming such with metainformation (as we announced we were about to do). What I really found surprising is that TPT directly announced that he is:

-an experienced player
-someone that calculates a lot his actions (as he wanted not to be meta-studied and so on...

From this point on, the issue on his autovote is no longer a stupid thing for me...it is a serious one. He raised in my scuMETER. Im not gonna vote him for the moment, but Im no longer so open to consider his action a newbie-emotional stupidity...

4. I don’t see if this was answered but OMGUS is when you vote for someone simply because they voted for you. But nureins, how are they trying to ‘distance’ each other? This seems to bring in more attention.

Jahudo, I completely agree with you. Precisely I said that I could not really believe these two people had preplanned this game. This let us with the fact that one of them (at most) would be mafia...
As I told in that 1 to 4 (and then 5 and 6) points, I started with the possibility that only 1 or 3 were a bit credible. Ectomancer seems to believe Ythill is more townie than TPT. Can I assume that you too ? Indeed, I had serious doubts before the information he gave on his experience.

Also, having been so careful as to choose a different game to play with, etc etc, having thought so much about his participation in this forum, etc etc, is it credible he is not aware what an OMGUS is ? This is my second game ever (in any forum, and even in my complete life, i havent played before !) and I KNOW what an OMGUS is from the first game (and even having some curiosity on the wiki i had found it before my first game)...

Right now I'm reading TPT's self-vote and sarcastic responses as townie frustration at a perceived unworthy bandwagon on him. The self-vote is poor play as both town and scum, but it seems like something that townies do more often than scum, regardless.

I read the same at first, goat. Now I'm less sure after what I describe on his experience...

I believe he said he wasn't inexperienced. Perhaps in his experience people are more likely to unvote someone who votes themselves, even while giving them grief over it.
Or perhaps not. I would not read that he is town out of his action though, not the way Simenon and yourself appear to have. I reserve my judgement on him, but he doesnt deserve to be lynched today, even without a claim yet.

Ectomancer, you come back to my side by far (welcome back to my scumeter deepness), as you have had my SAME thoughts...Im gonna perform this exercise all days, I think is fruitful (the exercise is to answer all the mails appeared from my previous post one by one, without reading all of them before...Im liking it !!)

I am not defending pope. I am stating my opinion on him. The two are not the same.

Do not take it personal and close in your shell. People is telling you that your opinions can only be useful if they are reasoned...otherwise, as I told before, your words can only put tpt under more pressure and this is bad if you think he is town, is that right ??

@nureins
That expression is meaningless unless you qualify it.

you did two things:

quicly said that TPT was town without any argument
voting the only other participant with a relevant number of votes

both at the same time. This sounds suspicious to me. Of course, it can be a casual thing, or maybe is just that you take a side in the "battle" it was over the table. Precisely, to know which one is the correct, Id like to know your reasons and carefully describe them. Why TPT is town, why ythill is scum. You seem to be participating a lot. Please do not take things as personal and try to answer the questions of others and to give all of us arguments for a better vote...

The way you phrased that sounds like stating a fact rather than an opinion. It is strange to state something like that without explaining yourself.

@simenon: You see, I take Cass' reaction as a townie one. I had the same, and it seems to me that tpt+you is appearing in the mind of some people very softly. It has appeared into mine as to do the following:

unvote

FOS: simenon

FOS: tpt

Im not gonna cast my vote yet. I want to wait to read all the posts (this night has been fruitful !!) especially because it is a MILD FOS and i dont want tpt to be pressured more than just answering back some questions...

It's almost like I'm intentionally contradicting myself.

Really, TPT, why are you doing this ? Think a bit if you are townie, this is not helping us. I yet have a lot of doubts, but it is difficult to find people to defend you if you act like that. Especially if you have no metagames to defend you and you claim to be so experienced...

I do it all the time. Since this is a normal game with day roles being highly unlikely, I feel there's little harm in phrasing that way. It has more of an impact.

Why do you have your words to have more of an impact if you are not so sure about tpt ? that is the point. You are mildly convinced that he is town, so ponder your words about him. Im very mildly suspicious of him, so Ill not launch serious words on him. Do the same, this helps to know how much you value him. And overall, it helps you give your reasons. Please give your reasons.

I did that last time and I was Townie so I can sympathyise a little, but at the same time, I don't really think you were pushed to the edge like me to pull out a self-vote. It is either really childish or actually scummy as someone mentioned above, I think.

What the hell leads a townie to vote himself ? Tell me the stupid-emotional circumstances under which you did that. I wanted to understand better if this is really possible and why, to see if TPT was around that...
Cass, did you refer to that stupid thing of habitang when you meta-talked to him ?? how serious is this guy ? (habitang, abstain to answer the last question, haha)

@nureins: your location says Spain. Are you spanish?

Yes I am. Ok, Thanks for answering my questions. my view on the issue has changed a lot since I formulated as this post clearly states, but thx anyway, the more opinions the more clear I have my mind...

Nureins is also goign under the microscope, asking groups of people seems like a way for confusion, it prompts those people asked to answer, as compared to askign eveyrone, where those who find relevance wil answer. Also it seems liek a distancing technique, to include your partner's name in the list amongst other names. To protect your partner's identity if he gets lynched. If you are going to ask a group of people, why not just ask eveyrone?
Also a result of it is not very pro-town when thsoe who aren't asked have teh license to not give their opinion.

I do not agree at all. I wanted the opinion of all those who "participated" in the issue involved. Including the name of people forces them to answer back sometimes. I wanted especially the opinion of these guys, so I wrote their names. I do not see the distancing technique, as I was asking them for information, not accusing any of them. In this mail I'm writting all my opinions...
Of course everyone is very welcome to give their opinions in my words even if I do not include their name. That is obvious...

And why would I want to cooperate with the town? Oh, right, you're all so sure that I'm a townie now, right? Night hasn't passed.

My advice is for you to stop that arrogance, TPT. This is not gonna help you. Some people like Ectomancer have unvoted you (I would have unvoted you coz I would have feared up a quick lynch by couple of emotional people). This doesnt mean the unvoters stopped believing you are scum. Indeed, I truly believe lot of people (including me) have scummy impressions on you. If you are town and just behaving arrogant, think of it...

I don't have specifics to reference, but this posts struck me as overtly leading. As if you are trying to bait the hook with theories against a couple of players to see if other innocent players pick up on them and run with it..

Umm nice exercise this of answering one by one. I cheer you up again, matin. If you want to talk more on habitang, please comment to me, I had the same impression. But TPT is absorbing so much attention than the rest vanishes...

If your "theory" is right, matin, lets speculate a little bit. Is there a connection between this game and TPT's one ? habitang told a emotional story (I almost was crying ) about townies voting themselves haha...what do you think, Matin ?

[nureins]

1. It's my apology for refusing to post a random vote. I try to get a content-based vote out as soon as I have a lead, even if it's a minor one.

2. I wouldn't so much call it INSISTING as I would call it SLINGING MUD. Pope got too serious too quickly, then backed out, then voted for me. INSISTING would have involved more posts, more argument, and one less OMGUS hop.

3. Yes the vote was OMGUS, but I consider it a null-tell in most situations.

4. This is horrible play. Relying on conspiracy theories (assuming two players' alignments without knowing either) leads to confirmation bias and therefore mislynches. I welcome you to point out alignment tells against myself, Pope, or anyone else but... please... don't start accusing us of distancing until one of us has been confirmed as scum.

Thank you Ythill. Answering to you with detail, I already said that 4 was not possible to me. I just extracted these 4 "theories" about the dance all of you were playing, and I wanted to hear opinions on them. I advanced that 1 and 3 were my "favourite" even if very very mild. Now probably I have to admit that Ectomancer didnt fail "me" (but yet I didnt like his vote, Ecto, allow me this at the same time I swallow my pride by accepting your superiority ). Im starting to believe more the 2 one...

So please, reconsider your last sentence. I havent accused you of anything. Writting down these big words creates unhelpful messages in the air

[nureins]

@ nuriens: There's been time to see what's developed. Now, do you find me scummy? Or Pope? Or both? Or neither? Why?

I was simulposting at the same time you wrote this...and you can see there all my answers. This is Spain, I hope you dont pretend me to write at 4 a.m.

Now during the day I can be active answering from time to time some posts. And at the morning I can do a big one as I did today...

Now time to work. Enjoy the day...

[nureins]

Even if I do not agree with the words, I do agree with the essence.

what

The essence of Cass' argument, though i would not have written it so plain, probably because my suspicions on all of you are milder than hers...but I agree with the essence of her argument...

If you really think he is town, why havent you tried to explain it carefully ?

Why was it necessary that I do?

If you are town, you have only created more suspicions on you and him.

there are plenty of players voting for him ! So your words can only generate more votes on him...

what

do you want me to repeat ?
my opinion is:
1. u defend him with reasonable arguments, u decrease the number of votes on him.
2. u defend him without arguments, u increase the number of votes on him and on you...

of course, this is only my opinion, you can have whichever you want.

[People is telling you that your opinions can only be useful if they are reasoned...otherwise, as I told before, your words can only put tpt under more pressure and this is bad if you think he is town, is that right ??

Them's people are wrong. Later in the game, if/when Pope dies, they can look at my statement and know exactly what I felt about Pope. A statement like that has no unnecessary embellishment. I'm a telling it like it is.

Oh congratulations, People is wrong and you appear as being correct after the lynch of an innocent...and ?? is this a way to help the town ? I think no...

1. quickly said that TPT was town without any argument.
2.voting the only other participant with a relevant number of votes

1. See, there you go again. Your use of "quickly" makes no sense here unless you clarify what it means.
2. Good for me. I'm glad I did. Without bandwagons, mafia would be a near impossible game.

quickly simply meant without a written reflection. So maybe you had a reflection, but we havent seen it, and you yet do not expose it...even you said it is just your impression, your clinical eye

There was a bandwagon on TPT. If Bandwagons are the essence of the game, why didnt you remained on it to extract more information? why you tried to deviate attention from this bandwagon to another at this precise moment, instead of defending with arguments the person inside the bandwagon ?

Precisely, to know which one is the correct, Id like to know your reasons and carefully describe them. Why TPT is town, why ythill is scum. You seem to be participating a lot. Please do not take things as personal and try to answer the questions of others and to give all of us arguments for a better vote...

The one way a player can possibly emulate the brilliance that is MeMe is by not stating reasons for why a player is town. In fact, I regret making the original statement. It can only help the scum:
1. If a player is established by everyone to be town, it greatly increases the likelyhood for a townsperson to be nightkilled.
2. I am not going to try to move any votes off of someone unless I have a reason other than "this person is a better lynch." Voting is the best possible tool out there for gathering information. I am not going to corrupt that natural process.

As for why Ythill is scum, well, I stated my reasons already.

Not very precisely, but here you are right. You did.

Also, I'll note you said "what the hell could lead a townie to vote himself."
So you are noting someone with a rational mind wouldn't vote himself.
But then why would a scum ever want to?

No. My sentence means how could a RATIONAL TOWNIE would do that ??
This is the part I cannot understand. This leads me IRRATIONAL TOWNIE OR SCUM. And I have serious doubts on irrationality, given TPT's post, therefore... (you can end up the logical argument). In any case, I asked for information about Voting Oneself, since it is something completely new for me, so I wanted more information.

[nureins]

(about Cass' argument
Explain what that essence is, because it isn't clear to me.

Post 105 was long enough as to clarify each point, especially if they are clear...Cass voted you because of you posting so much with so few words/arguments...I didnt agree with her words, though I did with the essence of this argument. I clarified later why I found you suspicious at first...Post 105, second of my paragraphs...

Both you and Cass like to throw out assertions without backing them up, and then when they're questioned, throw out more assertions. It's not helpful or clear.

is it not helpful to make assertions ? especially reasoned. I like to make reasoned assertions as to clarify my view on the game and spread my ideas about how/why people could be playing. This is my view of the game, dunno which is yours. Maybe is simply brevity. do you advocate for playing quicly day 1 ? i dont plant this, but making of it a long day...Im in no hurry...

Also, it is curious that YOU state that CASS and ME are making assertions without backing them. Am I the only laughing at this ? I guess the answer is NO..

See: I have no interest in decreasing the votes on him.

Umm curious...so I considered tpt mildly suspicious (he was competing with Ythill in my mind to get the first serious vote) and I WANTED TO DECREASE THE VOTES ON HIM because even for my thoughts, L-2 was exagerated for him. And YOU, who thought he was town, was not interested in decreasing the votes on him ?

Let's see, which is the word for this attitude ?

Either prove it or stop making the point. Recycling the same argument and not explaining is really, really annoying.

You made a non-reasoned assertion. You got a vote by Cass. You improved the number of votes on you. Q.E.D.

With respect to TPT, it is not your sentence what reduced the number of votes on him. Nobody has taken your words as an argument to cast out a vote. It has been the impression that L-2 and his autovote was too much crazy for his not so much scummy attitude. But thanks to your words, new ppl is looking at him more carefully than they did (I'm doing it, for instance)

1. Show where I've posted "gut feelings" as fact.
2. Show where I've backtracked.

First of all, I guess you want Cass to answer this question, asi you quote her. It is curious that in a post in which you put dozens of my quotes, you include one of Cass without clarifying she did. Especially curious when you try to put us in the same basket (you can read your first words in the post to support this assertion...).

Even if it is not for me, I'll answer anyway.

1.

TPT is town, by the way.

Clearly, not a very developed form of an opinion and the reasons of such opinion, but simply a statement declaration.

2. She did not. Her words were: "It also makes it very easy for him to backtrack on things he has said, LATER IN THE GAME", which was also a reason for which I didnt like an unreasoned statement by you. Pretty clear that no accusation to you of backtracking. Umm, by the way, is backtracking a word for what I let undefined in my debate about decreasing votes ?? umm Im just interrogating, not stating, though Im starting to answer myself that yes...so you didnt want to help tpt...you just put words for other reasons we cannot know...


[quote=
"simenon"]

You haven't yet. I will as soon as you start doing it. The excuse 'short posts are good' will not convince me.

That's pure crap. You can't seriously be accusing me of crimes I haven't committed, but will. That's plain silly. [/quote]

Now it is decided.

Vote:Simenon

Who is accusing you of backtracking now or in future? Your posts in which you try to sell the idea that Cass and Me were accusing you of things like backtracking are crap...your insistance is for me very scummish...

It may be just your posting style, but I'm starting to become suspicious of someone who is willing to say so much without actually taking a stand.

Ythill, i have no hurry to lynch people, I think a long day 1 can only help town. So I was not gonna join a bandwagon at L-2 only because I have a mild suspicion of someone. I take stands, and I try to reason them. Indeed, stands evolve, so I would like people to write their stands as much as some other people is doing as to understand better all the positions. you confound taking a stand with casting a vote at a semi-random stage...

we are just reading about people, and for me this phase can last for 30 pages (in my first mafia game ever, we are finishing day 1 with more than 20 pages, and we are only 9 players). And Id like the phase to last even more...Im old enough as to take notes on what the important things are...

[nureins]

The way Nureins and Simenon are 'discussing' TPT makes me think they may just be two overzealous Townies if that makes sense.

Also I do not support how some players are reading into every single statement and wording. It makes the game not onyl hard to follow but we start to miss the point of what we were talking about in the first place.

(very earlier in the game, about habitang)
I don't have specifics to reference, but this posts struck me as overtly leading. As if you are trying to bait the hook with theories against a couple of players to see if other innocent players pick up on them and run with it..

I also find it interesting that you were the one earlier on who was so worried about scum directing the flow of discussion but yet you've been working so hard to push discussion in various directions yourself.

@habitang: I'm not discussing TPT. I was discussing Ythill vs TPT before. Now I'm discussing Simenon's intervention in that game. Clearly, one of the only promising things in the game before your interventions. (do you prefer telegraphic wording ? I find it more confusing)

@Matin, Jahudo: after casting my vote on simenon and waiting for more information on my FOSSED tpt, do you want to discuss on my new

FOS: habitang

?

I think Matin's comment and Goat's one are pretty connected. Moreover, habitang is claiming that Simenon and Me distort attention on tpt debate when habitang before crossed some posts with Jahudo because Jahudo was "inflating" a stupid bandwagon on tpt based on funny things...I have to reread all the posts, but habitang:

Did you believe tpt's bandwagon was justified to arrive at L-2 ?
If the answer is YES: why were you "attacking" jahudo ?
If the answer is NO: why do you worry if I'm focusing on a different branch (that is, Simenon's intervention ?)

[nureins]

Post 105 was long enough as to clarify each point, especially if they are clear...Cass voted you because of you posting so much with so few words/arguments...I didnt agree with her words, though I did with the essence of this argument. I clarified later why I found you suspicious at first...Post 105, second of my paragraphs...

Here we go again.

What

words?

What

essence?

Are you making fun of me ?? are you serious ? I said, Post 105, second of my paragraphs. There you can read my quotation of Cass' words, and which essence of these words I accepted...

Then they cease to be assertions when you reason them.

Look, Im spanish, so if you want to make riddles with language, Im not gonna follow you. Do it as you want.

Definition of Assertion:
a positive statement or declaration, often without support or reason

OFTEN is not ALWAYS. OFTEN means there are lot of ppl who makes assertions without support or reason, as you did in "TPT is town".
I prefer to do them with support or reason, and I typically do...they obviously remain assertions, because they are positive statements or declarations that I do...

Nope. I'm fine if people who I think are town get run up.

Then one of the following two:

1. Either you are scum, in which case you are fine with people who you think are town get run up (and I guess the reason is obvious).

2. You do not assign credibility to your own beliefs. Because I do, and if I think someone is town, I prefer scum to get run up...

First of all, I guess you want Cass to answer this question, asi you quote her. It is curious that in a post in which you put dozens of my quotes, you include one of Cass without clarifying she did. Especially curious when you try to put us in the same basket (you can read your first words in the post to support this assertion...).

what

You wrote a post with a dozen of my quotes...but without specifying it, you include a quote of Cass' words (about backtracking). You mixed her with me, and you misunderstood (in the most benevolent way of thinking) her words and stated that we are accusing you of backtracking...

Please be clear with your quotes. And please do not put in other people's mouth things they have not said...

Even if it is not for me, I'll answer anyway.

Hey, that's bad for the town. Don't do that.

Why is bad for town that I answered these questions that you did to (me, cass ? who knows to whom you did, since you didnt quote correctly...)

When she said so, I responded to it by saying that her comment was useless. It's about as helpful as "I think you're are going to be scum, so I'll vote you." It's a nonreason.

This is false in my opinion. Her comment was very useless, and I do agree with the essence of this argument. Making a statement like you did puts you in a very vague position about TPT. You just say he is town...without specifying why or how...so later in the game, depending on how it goes, you can modify your argument in whichever direction you need. For me, this is very scummish...

Who is accusing you of backtracking now or in future? Your posts in which you try to sell the idea that Cass and Me were accusing you of things like backtracking are crap...your insistance is for me very scummish...

No, they aren't. Reread the Cass post.

the first sentence is not well formed, as it does not answer my question.
the second sentence: I already reread it. Cass didnt accuse you of backtracking at any moment.

[nureins]

Nurein has inferred Ectomancer as a voice of authority once too many times for me to trust his motivations.

False.
I dont infer you as a voice of authority.

Summing up:

1. I felt you townie because you followed same patterns of thought I did.
2. I felt you were failing my townie feeling because of your position in TPT
3. I partially accepted I could be mistaken in my analysis of 1 to 4 (in my initial view, 1 or 3 were the mild interesting points, whereas you claimed 2 to be the important...and after simenon's intervention I started to think that 2 could be true)
4. Without writting it down at any moment, I also felt you reacted correctly to tpt and unvoted him later on.

Cass and Nurein have moved to my top suspects at this point, and I'm more likely to believe that Nurein is pandering scum right now.

vote Nurein

Then 5. you are very wrong but yet welcome to ask me whatever you want...

If you want my impression about Cass, I truly believe she is looking for scum in Simenon's comment. For me clearly is something scummish.
And clearly, she is not pushing for simenon's lynch, as he is occupying a "third" position in the TPT-Ythill game (in votes and in importance). Maybe not in bytes, but this is probably only because I write too much, and it seems to me that simenon likes too (what again strikes me up the question of why the hell he did such comment without any reasoning)

[nureins]

When I said you wouldn't take a stand, it had nothing to do with you not voting. It had everything to do with your extensive use of qualifying phrases. Good townies are not afraid to be wrong and, especially since English is not your first language, I'd think you understand the power of qualifiers to make a statement ambivalent.

This is a funny argument. Before voting someone for his writting style, I would have take a read to some of his posts in other games...obviously, you didnt.

Other things I find suspicious: basing your current case on theory disagreements, ]suspicion growing against Sim while his tells have been showing more town than scum, suddenly both taking a stance and making a vote in answer to my accusation, and buddying to Cass.

1. theory disagreements ?? my initial suspicion is based on simenon's intervention in tpt vs ythill.
2. suspicion came into a vote. Why do you think later on he has gone a lot up ? Cass already unvoted him...and I could do the same or not depending on the existence of a better suspect...
3. FALSE. READ MY POST. I WAS ANSWERING POSTS ONE BY ONE. IF I WERE SCUM I WOULDNT USE SUCH RIDICULOUS STRATEGY TO HIDE A VOTE, DONT U THINK ?
But obviously, you havent read my posts very carefully, just you jumped over me the same way you jumped when I mentioned you the first time...too many quick votes for someone who is reluctant to cast votes in the beginning.

At least you could have used Ectomancer's arguments, which were incorrect but credibe (oh, ectomancer, am I claiming your authority again ? now it sounds more like authority, not like townie-reading, haha)

OMGUS vote:

UNVOTE. VOTE: Ythill

[nureins]

Infer has an angry sound to it. He in

FERS

. Imply has sort of a nice ending. He implied that I was pretty awesome in that post.

See?

Oh, and doing a bit of meta-gaming. A scum is 59% more likely to use infer and a townie is 63% more likely to use imply. Statistically, you're more likely to be scum.

I yet have you up in my scumeter, so the following words are kind of autotherapy more than claiming your authority.

I hope you are false, haha, because in my first mafiagame im playing, I already have the feeling to be "dominated" by a player (unfortunately for my ego, an adolescent, haha). As I answered back to Ectomancer, I clearly was simply reading townie words from him and talking them openly...sharing information is the way to win for town, i truly believe it...
I yet read Ectomancer's words as protownie, and I dont think his vote to me and his words were scummy. I could imagine myself asking a similar question to a player like me...

About the IMPLY/INFER point, i better dont give my opinion, my english is horrible...

[nureins]

my first "scumeter"

Some scum-hints from up to down...

Ythill. In my view, he has jumped over two persons with very poor arguments. Especially inconsistent with someone that claims early voting is not his speciality and that claims that never goes for early voting...

Simenon. Have the opinion that he is refusing to enter "rational" debates, or if im allowed to judge a bit without offending, behaves arrogant...Im confused about this way of playing. In my view, all town strategy has to be about sharing information about scum attitudes and behaving that way hardly you can communicate with others...

TPT. Very strange feelings with him. TPT is hard to jugde for me right now (due to ectomancer's inquiry on me and subsequent tpt reaction, since im not sure how "pure" my view on him is. This doesnt mean that Ectomancer is intoxicating me negatively, since i clearly think ecto is town, but im thinking myself as extremely influenced by other's opinions in this game and the ecto-tpt debate confirms to me) but I didnt like specially his autovote, as he announces himself as an experienced-rational player.

Habitang. Have had no time to analyze his play in detail, but find his participations "jumping-way". Especially significant is his attack to Jahudo, about which Im yet waiting his answer...

Andycyca: Lot of lurking posting. Desire someone to start a wagon against him at some moment to see his reactions...

From the rest, I have townie reads most of the time...maybe some minor details could be added, but not significant up to now...

[nureins]

The accusation is right there. Where it says: "you haven't yet. I will as soon as you start doing it". You might argue saying that cass' quote is just a stylish FoS, but why say it? everyone should be looking at everyone's behavior, there's no need to say it again.

Andy, you have gone back only until post 118 (by Cass). Please go back until post 115 (by Simenon), in which he is the first that assumes someone has accused him. He says explicitly, SHOW ME WHERE I'VE BACKTRACKED (If i remember correctly). Before 115, No Cass word was saying he did, just saying stating someone is town without any reasoning allows someone to hide a lot of intentions and modify later in whatever direction, and therefore, it is not useful for town but only for scum...

OMGUS vote

Admitting to OMGUS is one of the most antitown attitudes.

I am completely sure that you are able to understand the difference between an OMGUS attitude and someone who "announces" that the following vote can be labelled (only because of formalism) as an OMGUS' vote according to the definition...

Andycyca: Lot of lurking posting. Desire someone to start a wagon against him at some moment to see his reactions...

I'm not against pressure wagons, but I want to know:

@nureins: if you wanted to see a pressure wagon on me, why didn't you vote (I'm not within quicklynch, I hope)?

[/quote]
For two reasons. The first, that I had a clear objective, so my vote is casted accordingly. The second, that Ectomancer is yet dealing with his pressure on me, and I do not want him to get lost in the forest with a vote on someone who is just in my scumeter because of absence of posts. So I kindly "asked" to people to start this wagon (and probably Cass who believes that Im town, accepted the invitation).

I do not think you are in quicklynch at all, but Id like to see more words (in this forum, in this game, about this game ) from you to end up forming an opinion.

[nureins]

@ nuriens: I said I don't joke vote. Then I explained the difference between that and early voting. Stop twisting my words, scum.

The only thing you have said is :

"1. It's my apology for refusing to post a random vote. I try to get a content-based vote out as soon as I have a lead, even if it's a minor one. "

So I'll build on that. Quite funny to me. You dont want to "joke vote", but whatever reason, even if it is a minor one, is valid later for doing a (how to call that?? almost-joke-vote apologizing for what ??). Now few posts later, not only you have moved again from your minor case, now you claim another person is definitely SCUM. And you call that person Scum while you go on camping...great...If you want me to cheer up a debate on how compatible the word scum and myself are, you are welcome...i can be the moderator if you want, since you leave

[nureins]

I honestly would rather not hear anymore between Nureins and Simenon. I think it is Townie killing Townie.

I dont usually follow the advices of those who are in my scumeter and refuse to answer my questions DIRECTLY. If you want them to be repeated, here they are:

Did you believe tpt's bandwagon was justified to arrive at L-2 ?
If the answer is YES: why were you "attacking" jahudo ?
If the answer is NO: why do you worry if I'm focusing on a different branch (that is, Simenon's intervention ?)

[nureins]

Tpt's bandwagon...hmmm. It was L-2, not that important but anyway. I think it was justified, eveyrone has their opinions and I can see how people would want to vote TPT.

Then I want to know why you Fossed and put pressure on Jahudo if the "attack" towards Tpt was justified. I saw a clear townie sparking debate to see what he could obtained there...and I like his way and the amount of bits he generates (ill give my opinion on that later).

I looked over nhat's posts again and although he's had one more post than andy, he's only responded to only TPT's words and hasn't said a word about any other player or investigation since his random vote.

Thanks, in my view nhat have posted about the "relevant" topic so it was ok for me...ill have an eye too as much as I can...

Sure you're putting a good amount of pressure on one person and I think it's been a good investigation so far, but if you're not in the mindset of the rest of the game too you're going to fall behind once/if you decide to look elsewhere.

is that about my playstyle ? Im not very sure about it. It is my second game ever in life (of any kind). I just think the best for town is to share all the information, to obtain the more hints the better and to spread them. From the first game Im playing I think i probably do tunnel-visions sometimes. But this is not so "dangerous", as we are a lot of people looking for information and "correcting" the information of others. Im open (indeed, probably too much) to take information on other players. So you are welcome to criticize my views all you want to drive them to better spots...

Agreed. Chaos is the agent of scum, and though walls of text can be useful at times, mostly it scatters the attention and causes people to lose focus.

THE agent of scum is silence. If you play the game without words, then lynching is probabilistic. The more information you have, the better for town. Now, if you want to add Chaos as a malign agent, that is ok, but it is AN agent, not THE agent.

If you are worried about chaos, ask ppl to summarize their scumhunting hints, opinions, etc, so you can follow the game AT THE SAME TIME that you spark discussions the more you can to have the more opinions you can have...

Im not gonna stop writting long posts. I really think they help us. But as I did, I could give answers to some people by enumerating and from time to time, by summing up what ive seen up to the moment...I also asked you not to give people excuses (not accusing you of that, ppl is soooooo susceptible...just asking you to stop this discussion and move to the game. Also, not focusing on you, as Goat, Simenon, nhat, now me and dunno if someone else have participated in this debate. I just selected your quote coz you are the one leading a wagon on me and I prefer to answer you...) for being too concise and hide themselves...

[nureins]

Nurein .. Tries to take early leadership position in town by directing conversation, buddies up to players, seems interested in debating minutia that as others have said makes scum hunting harder

That is completely false. I dont try to take any leadership. I want participation to rise, ideas to be debated and people to be questioned. That is a very collective task. And indeed, I have already said I like to combine my thoughts about people with other ppl's thoughts. I dont want to buddy up myself to anyone but I launch my town perceptions the same way I launch my scum perceptions). Im NOT interested in debating minutia (i just debate all, if someone asks or comments, I do...).

If you prefer me not to say anything, rise hands those of you who think I talk too much. Do not worry, if i count too many hands as to feel there is a townie impression that i would better shut up, ill do, and will use only monosyllabs and votes...

but I dont think this is gonna help town at all...

Who is discussing minutia ? me or those COMMENTING AND QUOTING me about this ? Dont get confounded...

[nureins]

You claimed that this is the 2nd game of your life...ever. You can listen to the advice I am giving you or not.

Keep the discussion focused and we are more likely to be successful.

With that I fully agree.
Now please, think again on why nureins was "recognizing your authority" and you will fully realize that precisely, what you first criticized from me and lead you to vote me was indeed admitting:

1. That I'm very open to look for people to help in the task of developing scum-hunting debate.

2. That I'm very open to hear opinions on how to do that in a better way...

And you see that I spend time into clarifying this to you and not to Ythill because your votes were of a very different nature. I can understand yours, and I'm also very tired of stupid debates...

[nureins]

Pope being experienced but not knowing stuff (self vote, OMGUS) is not a contradiction because he said his experience was from MW and other sites.

For me this is not a excuse. As I said, a player who claims to be experienced and decides not to be "metagamed" and so on and so forth, has read for sure some information in the wiki.

At least this is my view, as I did even being an inexperienced one.

The only thing you have said is :

"1. It's my apology for refusing to post a random vote. I try to get a content-based vote out as soon as I have a lead, even if it's a minor one. "

Look at post #15, which was a reply to your #14, and which you replied to in #16, and then explain to us why you are lying.

Misquoting or Misinterpreting quotes in order to build the image you want on ppl's imaginary was Goebels' strategy. You do much worse than Goebels...

My words are an answer to the words in which you claim to have explained the difference between joke and early voting. Post 167 if you came back a bit lost from camping...so I argued that your ONLY explanation had been this line, and I went on the paragraph discussing the weakness of your defense, and how strange is to me that you are having such a very precise image of who scum is after your initial hesitance to joke vote...easily you achieve certainties in the game...

Now few posts later, not only you have moved again from your minor case, now you claim another person is definitely SCUM.

I will move my vote as often as I like. Changing one's stance as the evidence changes is good for the town.

Nothing is

definite

D1, but it's become pretty obvious to me that you are scum. I don't understand what's wrong with me saying so.

Now hurry up and implicate your buddies so we can lynch you.

This is, I guess, a misunderstanding of my quote. What Im intrigued of is about the SPEED in your movements. If you read my words/posts again, you will understand that Im very surprised that you:

1. Hesitate to random vote
2. Jumped over someone at first glance.
3. Jumped over another one at first glance.
4. You call that person scum
5. You claim that person lies and talk about this person mafia-mates...

My friend, Formula1 is slower than this...since you called me lier, may I call you "snake" ? which movements !!

[nureins]

Goebels isn't playing this game. Let's stick to reality, scum.

5. That person

has

lied, or at least hasn't demonstrated otherwise. I didn't talk about your buddies, I told you to.

Goebels technique. "If you tell a lie big enough and keep it repeating, people will eventually come to believe it". Read Post 194 again and realize that I already answered you. Ill copy it again for you (sorry for repeating myself !!)

(quoting oneself has to be a sign of egocentrism ) Misquoting or Misinterpreting quotes in order to build the image you want on ppl's imaginary was Goebels' strategy. You do much worse than Goebels...

My words are an answer to the words in which you claim to have explained the difference between joke and early voting. Post 167 if you came back a bit lost from camping...so I argued that your ONLY explanation had been this line, and I went on the paragraph discussing the weakness of your defense, and how strange is to me that you are having such a very precise image of who scum is after your initial hesitance to joke vote...easily you achieve certainties in the game...

I might have accepted that you said "hey, I misinterpreted your post. I thought you wanted to say whatever else..." who knows...maybe that would sound credible. Not anymore...Clearly, your post 15 appears much before you "jumped" (this is my opinion merely) over someone and I started to wonder why you quickly voted when you have said you dont joke vote...and it does not explain the quick chain that you have evolved since then, in which your mind is full of certainty about scum when in the first you refused (ok, take that word if you like, im not gonna discuss on words) to vote...

[nureins]

@nureins: I’m a little confused with your current reasoning on Ythill. Are you saying that the discussion hasn’t developed enough for us to have more convidence in a vote than we had in the random voting stage? You seem to be trying to connect his refusal to vote on page 1 with his substance-based votes now. Besides the other points of these accusations, you seem to make a point of this as being contradictory.

Also I don’t understand the Goebels thing, and the points 1-5 (post 194) you just made look like they’re shaped to fit your argument about speedy scums jumping on a wagon. I don't see great differences in speed/decisiveness/confidence between Ythill and others here.

Let me enumerate to express myself better.

1. Of course, discussion has developed more to have more confidence in our suspicions.

2. What I first connected was his refusal to vote with a first vote that I considered very precipitated. He "jumped" over someone.

3. Then, I connected this with a second vote (towards me) without any serious reason and again I perceived he again jumped over someone.

Two jumps for someone who refused to "joke-vote". Then:

4. He is fully convinced of scumness and starts to use Goebels' way of talking.

In my view, such vertiginous way of acting for someone who appears in his first posts as someone paused who dont joke-vote and prefer to acquire serious opinions is very strange.

Now with respect to the Goebels' way of talking...

- he claimed that I lied, and he did by using a false argument.
- he mantains that lie and keeps repeating it, a well-known strategy for which Goebels was famous.

And with respect to the comparison with other players:

- None of the others refused to vote randomly and "announced" such a paused way of behaving.

- None of the others have arrived to the point of "certainty".

So clearly, the rest of players are quite different.

[nureins]

Im not gonna answer repetitive posts by Ythill. If any has doubts on some particular issue, please try to write them down as Jahudo did. Ill answer. If anyone feels Ythill is scummy, please take my seat in facing him, as I feel that he is refusing me completely...

[nureins]

I'm sorry. Nureins, your super long posts are way too long and I can't read them. I am starting to have a slight feeling that you may just be scum, what a great scum tactic: have super long posts so that noone reads them, hence avoiding suspicion.

Another one who have doubts for writting long posts ?
Responsible: the mod of my first game...He told me to try to write all my thoughts in ONE post. I prefer to answer questions separately in one post. This makes me to write 5 posts/day in average, but I do mantain my opinion that this can only be a good strategy for town.

Be careful WHO is reading my long posts and HOW this person is answering them...

[nureins]

He's backing out of the argument

Goebels.

[nureins]

Scum.

are u a child ??
I quoted a sentence in which you tried to put in the mind of everyone an image of me (a false one clearly), and to do it concisely, I wrote Goebels.
You just "called" me scum...this is more Goebels and/or childish. In that case I find it the second haha

[nureins]

Im enjoying your show Ythill...

Starts forcing conversation through serious questions as early as #14 and theory debate by #20. (null)

What goebels calls FORCING, I call PROMOTING (maybe u prefer to call itFORCING because in 14 i directed a question to you, did you feel bad ?). I also like to answer those talking with me, and this is what 20 was for matin.

Names 7 of 12 players as possibly implicated in #38-39. Gives ambivalent “town-soft” reads on two of them, with little new evidence, in #53. (scum)

Goebels again. I DIDNT MENTION ANYONE AS POSSIBLY IMPLICATED IN 38-39. COMPLETELY FALSE. This 7 players (and me) were the PARTICIPANTS in the debate, so I asked them for their opinions on my particular view about you... (again you act as Goebels when your name appears...)

Posts the “which is a joke?” quiz (#58) to his declared townies, myself, and the lead suspect. The examples all shed suspicion on two opposed players. The post leaves a very obvious exit from any attempt to discredit it (scum).

Goebels again. It is not "my declared townies, yourself and the lead suspect". It is "my declared townies (if you want to call them that way, that is ok) and MY TWO SUSPECTS. Everyone can read the post and see that I supported 1 and 3 as the more credible in an early stage...I said, for you and all to remember:

1. Ythill QUICK vote after saying he doesnt like random-joke votes...

Again Goebels when the post refers to you, it is funny...

By the way, one of my declared townies, Ectomancer, made me to look a bit apart from you for some time, and to focus more on TPT and Simenon...give thanks to him...it is of good people to give thanks. By the way, Ecto, up to now Im ok with your wagon, but I want to hear your opinions on Goebels-snake...(you are a bit hidden, lets say )

Considers Pope “a bit suspicious” while coaching him in #65 (scum).

Perfectly compatible. I found him A BIT SUSPICIOUS. And having someone just a bit suspicious at L-2 is not a good idea. We have played 25 pages/day 1 in my first game, we have lynched a townie, and I wanted more pages...Im in no hurry of lynching anybody, especially if I find him A BIT SUSPICIOUS. But you like speed, that is clear to me...

Changes his Ecto read with the evidence (town) and puts words in Jah’s mouth (scum) in #71.

I do not understand this. Are you saying I stopped reading Ecto as Town ?
Because this is again FALSE. I havent changed my read on Ecto during all the game (not too much, I mean). He left the deepness of my scumeter but never arrived to a high level. If you read the post again, you will see I said that my answer to my own question was NO, I DIDNT FIND ECTO SUSPICIOUS.

GOEBELS again, I DIDNT PUT ANY WORD IN JAHUDO'S MOUTH. I guessed from his unvote to Ecto that he didnt find him suspicious. But of course, I wanted him to make it verbal to understand the reasons better. Why do you think I ASKED HIM ?

“Beautiful dance” post (#75) suspecting all three players in the most current drama. Confirms his vote while saying, of it “randomness has not disappeared a lot.” (scum)

Again, where is the trouble ?
I said, Im putting my attention in these 3 people. I havent "decided" on them. My vote was on you among the three of them due to a "random" reason, so I wanted to point out that the reason was partially random. And I was extracting more info on the 3 of you and ready to cast more "serious" votes...

WOW (#105-107) is a study in ambivalence, “answering” all questions without taking a solid stance. Interpretation could take things either way. Uses the outs he seeded in #58. Coaches Pope twice. Avoids a direct question about his stance by claiming he’d already answered it (major scum).

GOEBELS again. Without taking a solid stance ?? What do you call a solid stance ?
What I announced in my previous post became true. I Fossed tpt and simenon, probably influenced by "depending" too much in ecto. Something that curiously, provoked a vote from him to me. Now Im happy, because I was able to see your new jump on me and perceive that you are scummier than they two. This doesnt mean I stopped having suspicions on them. Indeed, I do have. You are very fast in making conclusions. I am not, and I like to see the game developing. So I took a solid stance. But for you, solid stance maybe is a different thing.

Yes, I again adviced TPT for the same reason than before. L-2 was too much for him according to my suspicions. Of course, you do not joke vote but maybe like to lynch quick, who knows...

Second WOW (#111) minimizes his own suspicions, attacks Sim for null tells, eluding that he is scum and Pope is town. Uses the “too rational to be a townie” argument (scum).

I do not see here your point about "minimizing" my own suspicions. You do not describe what u mean.

I dont attack Sim for null tells. I considered (and yet consider) a bad issue that he defended TPT without any reasoning...
Eluding that sim is scum and pope town ? where have you read that ? Ill call you Merlin-Goebels-Snake from now on...
"too rational to be a townie" argument ?? My argument was:

- First, that some people were incorrect by assuming his autovote was an emotional/newbie issue, as TPT himself denied it.
- Second, that for me was very strange that a townie, being so rational as he claimed, behaved in that Autovote way.
I think it is pretty clear...

Third WOW (#128) makes slippery arguments against Sim, using them to finally take a stand (as well as vote) immediately after I have called him out for being wishy-washy. He does this while claiming that he’s in no hurry and trying to convince us of a semi-random stage (scum).

False again. Look, you can read back again this post and observe that one of my arguments against Sim was that he used the "GOEBELS" technique, in which you are an expert.

1. He misquoted.
2. He accused (Cass and Me) of him having backtracked.
3. It was pretty clear that neither Cass nor me had done.

But he wrote it in the Goebels' way:

I copy it to you, so you can recognize your way of misquoting-manipulating.

I do not like Simenon's explanation. Posting gut feelings (for that's what it was...) as if they are facts confuses things. And even more so in the long run. It also makes it very easy for him to backtrack on things he has said, later in the game. My vote stays where it is.

1. Show where I've posted "gut feelings" as fact.
2. Show where I've backtracked.

To put in perspective, Cass wrote the first paragraph. Simenon inserted it in a long post dedicated to me (with 12 of my quotes). Since Cass and Me were debating him, that clearly can be interpreted as a confussion if you want, but he created the view that Cass and Me were ONE against him, and we were ACCUSING him of something with that "null tell" that we never did...

You seem to be an expert on that. Since Sim only used this technique ONCE, i can accept a misunderstanding in his side, so that is ok, he won my vote for some time until you jumped over me when ectomancer just was smelling around...your technique

In #129 he’s territorial (not sure if that’s the right word) about his treatment of Sim (null).

I find this absurd. First, clearly I dont know where you read i was "territorial". Moreover, if i were a scum lynching a townie, I wouldnt like to be territorial at all...Probably i was more territorial in a different post, let me find it for you, so you can use it as a proper argument...

oh here it is, about some words on Matin:

"I saw it that way before TPT, I also want a bandwagon !! "
Because people were accusing of TPT for something I have commented first somehow...This is territorial if you want...

In #144 argues semantics, offers a false dichotomy, and continues baseless arguments against Sim (scum).

For much you call it BASELESS ARGUMENTS, they are not...Goebels in action again...

A confusing misquote in #146 just makes me wonder if he’s paying attention (null), but he goes on to use his earlier ambivalence tactically, invite suspicion, and give a baseless townie read on Cass (scum, though some are very mild).

With respect to the misquote, which one is it ?? I havent misquoted in 146...


funny, so we got you...GIVING A BASELESS TOWNIE READ ON CASS is scummy !!!
hahaha
Clearly, my read on Cass was based in our Simenon experience, in which I perceived that she was scum-hunting. Very different to Simenon on TPT that was simply "tpt is town", totally baseless...and that curiously, u dont find scummy


Here Im tired and have to work. Ill probably not follow answering, as I have perceived that you

- Are very bad scum that do not mind to misquote and lie around.
- Are so tunnel-visioned that interpret everything incorrectly.

So it is a nonsense to follow. People have enough up to here. If some other has a doubt on some point, please ask me.

[nureins]

Besides, who's bandwagoning?

Umm I thought Ectomancer at first, but seems he is not.
Ecto, I want to know your opinion, dont be shy, that somebody already pointed me out that you could be "influencing me too much" and I dont want to think this is true...(of course, a joke, because Ythill is gonna read from this post that you are my top scummy, and clearly, i yet read townie..)

[nureins]

does not follow the progression of evidence/accusation as stated by its author (major scum).

Hardly a major scum tell, all he said was this:

Some scum-hints from up to down...

I don't even get what Nureins is trying to say there. Scum-hints? it is like he is giving scum tips on how to win, from 'up to down'? WHat in the world? Sorry NUreins at criticising your English, it is actualyl quite good since you are playing in a forum, it is just these little thigns that confuse us.

Scumeter=Scum Thermometer. Up to down, from Hottest (most scum vibes) to Coldest (less scum vibes). This is the list from which I got some feelings, and I just summed up those feelings very shortly...obviously, they just reflect my largelyyyyyyyyy stated positions during previous posts...it is clear that they "follow" my evidence and accusation...but this guy just misquotes and misunderstands (probably on purpose)

For me, I don't think he set-up the backdoor since he pretty much used it as soon as he said it. Like it was pretty explicit that he thought No. 2 and 4 were stupid ideas, which he posted anyway.

This is pretty obvious. For me 1 and 3 were the only partially promising, and I was clear in my post. Indeed, Ectomancer

implied

or

inferred

that 2 was the most promising and given my town read on him and subsequent interventions (by tpt and simenon) it also grew up as a possibility for me. My positions have been very clear and I doubt there is some vagueness on them.

[nureins]

Okay now to investigate: My first impression was that NUreins seemed to be buddying up to eveyrone! I agree with you on this, I agree with you on that!

This was Ectomancer's idea, about me buddying him. That is pretty interesting, if i discovered someone buddying me or I would have doubts on that, I would clearly ask that person, having scum vibes.

For that, I took Ecto's vote and question perfectly adequate and I already answered him.

Ythill only mentioned Cass in his vote towards me, and buddying was not his "major" reason to vote me. He did so just because Cass and me were fighting simenon a bit. Curiously, Cass and me were fighting simenon because of his BASELESS defense of tpt, mainly. And he claims im buddying scum because i BASELESSLY called Cass townie. I already explained this in my previous long post. Ill not insist...you can go and read.

[nureins]

The one who is rapidly rising as a suspect is TPT. Where is he? He's lurking like there is no tomorrow, after not having cotributed yet at all. Goatrevolt also stays far too much on the sidelines.

Unvote
Vote: The Pope's Tiara
FoS: Goatrevolt

At the risk of buddying...some comments for your actions/opinions

1. your unvote is ok to me, but I yet want andy to participate more...

2. I agree with your vote because TPT has used long boring posts to hide himself a bit..but he commented some issues, so Im not sure if he is hidding or just realizing that the pressure on him was excessive (both if he is town or scum) and things need to be calmed down...I didnt observe he COMPLETELY hided...

3. The part with which I less agree is Goat. His last post was "ill try to do blabla tonight"...i dont think his absence is very scummy, but probably a temporary issue due to some occupation....when he participated, he did in a rational-put in precise terms way...I do think he is townie and especially important not to fall in dumb discussions...

I have metagamed him a bit and he is playing several games at the same time in a volume that perfectly explain "some" absence...however, if your Fos is useful to make him participate, that is ok...

[nureins]

@ nuriens: I noticed that you defended yourself against null tells and even one town tell. Did you not realize that the parenthetical words null, town, and scum were meant to identify the tells? This is an honest question. I just cannot see why

anyone

would post a defense to a town tell.

Maybe because Im not "defending" as Goebels would say, but participating in a debate...so I try to comment on everyone ideas if I can, and to answer issues about me when they appear...


With respect to your words for habit: I dont think he MISUNDERSTOOD you. I think you didnt explain you correctly. This is what happens when you "make a case" on someone by reading his posts and summing up a post like you did, saying...

Posts the “which is a joke?” quiz (#58) to his declared townies, myself, and the lead suspect. The examples all shed suspicion on two opposed players. The post leaves a very obvious exit from any attempt to discredit it (scum).

in which as i commented, first you were incorrect by SOFTENING MY SUSPECT ON YOU and STRENGHTENING MY SUSPECT ON TPT, and second, you didnt explain which "exit" u refered too...he interepreted it in an obvious way according to his post...I found his answer quite acceptable, probably due to his better english


Your point to Cass is totally incorrect, since as i told u, first im not defending, second im trying to clarify all the circumstances for all players, even if they insist in applying a TWIST-WORDS-CREATE-AN-IMAGE-INSIST-A-LOT...

And for you to see that I can even accept that everybody can suffer this problem here, with respect to you, some of your posts made me think you are tunnel visioning me incredibly...some others made me think you acted childishly and there is a chance that your Goebels' technique is just something you cant
either stop using because it is in ur personality or because you cannot accept openly that you have gone too far away with your judgements...

Having said all that, you are yet my first suspect due to my main argument, which has NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR GOEBELS' TECHNIQUE. Again you did. You claimed that my "main defence was that you were misinterpreting me". And that way you focus attention on me and erase my critics on you...

Maybe you can read my posts dedicated to other players, I try to clarify their doubts...

Id like to clarify yours, but it is impossible. For one reason (you are scum) or for another (you are townie with Goebels personality)

Lets start again. Have read all my posts and havent seen that my main reason to have u as a suspect is your sudden evolution during the game ?? speed, remember ? acceleration, fast, quick, sudden jump, Im sorry for being spanish and not having more vocabulary, given that some people is debating about such nonsense. That is not an argument, I have expressed very very clearly my reasons for considering Ythill scum. But if you want to go on twisting them...

[nureins]

A (perhaps starnge) request for the both of you: could you please each make a case on anyone that isn't the other? It would really help me compare.

I find it quite reasonable. The only problem is that if I follow your advice, Ill move to TPT and our dear friend ythill will tell very bad things of me

[nureins]

Initial feeling. OMGUS. But I appreciate you didn't do the whole PbPa, and focused especially on my playign style. I hate scrolling though heaps of quotes (I'm probably in teh wrong game eh?) I used to do it, but it always got thrown back at me and I lost credibility. Pretty much same way I feel about Nureins atm actually.

Im not lost with my quotes with Ythill. Now Ive stopped due to some petititons by the audience. But indeed I could largely answer to his repetitive points. Again I offer to anyone who ask me about any of the points raised by Ythill...

So do not please conform a view of me which is, to my view, pretty incorrect...as far as I can see, I havent lost "credibility" around...if you think so, you are welcome to the wagon.

[/quote]

[nureins]

[quote="Jahudo"][/quote]

I was gonna cite you and answer, but having read everything, I consider your summing up quite fair. Be prepared to face a wagon for not taking a stance, haha. This is a joke.

I had few things in which i disagree, but nothing serious.

For the moment,

unvote

[nureins]

Also I say a no-lynch day causes us to learn far less than say investigating multiple people and deciding on a lynch. With a lynch we have supporters and dissenters and their alignment adds to the conversation in the next day.

In my new "assigned" newbie condition, probably my words will be thrown away in this debate. But Id simply postpone this stupid thing. We are gonna collect all the information. 3 days before an hypothetical deadline, Im open to hear about "no lynchs", and ill most likely refuse them...now, it is just muddying the waters.

[nureins]

So it's day one; most votes have been made off of jokes or small leads. But I notice that three people have voted for me with still no substantial information. Perhaps one person made the original joke vote, and two scum followed with the already town-made vote because they know that I am not one of them. Jahudo has been fighting aggressively as town, so perhaps we should set our sights on nhat and Cass?

Welcome Tritch.
Since Im gonna follow the recommendation and adhere to other of my top suspects, lets start.

Why have you AVOIDED the inclusion of Ectomancer in your list ???
I REMEMBER very very well how he voted you, as this started a bit of chaos in my mind...

[nureins]

@ nuriens: Why did you pick Tritch and not Sim for your current case?

Just to answer you properly, first of all, I picked TPT, not Tritch. With Sim I already had a intense debate and I have the feeling that I cannot extract anything else from him vis a vis. This does not mean of course he is out of my radar. Same to you, he remains high in my radar but I consider better not to go on vis a vis and to look from outside a little bit. Impressions are better formed in that way (though of course, you do not get the type/magnitude of impressions that you achieve in a vis to vis). So probably a combination of Outside and Inside impressions on everybody is what I'm looking.

For that, even if I have already read that this is "too long" from lot of experienced players, I would not mind to extend this phase up to the moment in which I could have had a intense vis a vis debate with any of you. But do not allow me to start "theory" debates. I talk too much and I've seen already some comments by some people in that direction

[nureins]

Vote matin

Hasn't said anything controversial or substantive, except in a defense of him/herself (what is your gender, by the way?)

I think we should pressure somebody who doesn't talk as much right now.

A couple of comments on Matin after taking a look:

- Maybe that is not relevant, but 30 per cent of the lines of his posts are own comments, 70 per cent are quotes. Would like to metagame it, dunno if playstyle or as Simenon says, just not participating. And in the latter case, that percentage could mean he appears to be.

- His last post gives some opinions. I already answered his suspicions on me. I find correct his suspicions on Habitang, meaning that he is explaining in a fair way reasons he has over him and fit somehow with my view of habitang. He mainly shares his view on TPT with me...

Umm Im a bit lost with him. In my mind he was not a lurker before you mentioned. Now I do not consider him so passive, but neither as active as I thought.

[nureins]

Curious. I found two games by Matin.
In both of them, the quota/own ratio was 50 per cent.
In both of them, he was mafia.

Not significative, with only two games. But if anything, having more quotes seems not to mean something scummy in his side.

What about his replacement ? In my view, that could be interpreted in several ways:

- If he is a passive player, either he had some occupation or this game as townie is less exciting that his two goon games.
- If he is an active player, either he had some occupation or he is tired of the same side of the story (Im already desiring to try the other side !!)

Having metagamed him a bit and reading his posts and the amount of bits he writes, I bet for the first scenario, so I mantain my (now softy) townie reads on him waiting for new comments by his replacement...

[nureins]

@all:

-We are relaxing now.
-We are lazy now.


- We have allowed Tritch to enter the game passively without answering any of the issues TPT raised, and without analyzing deeply anything. Tritch, welcome...

VOTE: TRITCH

Id like you to answer about:

1. What do you think of TPT's autovote and attitude ?
2. was that emotional or rational ? in the latter case, which is your opinion about the reason ?
3. You described votes on TPT as reasoned/unreasoned, lets say, and you pointed out 3 ppl. Id like you to describe one by one the votes on TPT that you consider reasoned (if you also do with the unreasoned, that is even better)

[nureins]

I really dislike the recent push on Habitang, and a lot of those votes seem all too opportunistic. After reading through the thread, my top 3 suspects were Andycyca, Ectomancer, and Jahudo. I was somewhat suspicious of Ythill, mainly because I thought his top two targets of Nureins and Habitang were soft, easy targets, but his hesitance to jump on the Habitang wagon here gives me better vibes about him.

I agree in the basics. I find Habitang partially suspicious, though I relaxed these suspicions due to Cass' first arguments (his previous game with her shows the same kind of erratic and poor playstyle). The latter participations showed his need of fast posting-voting, which can be understood as playstyle or as scummy in my view. So I fully understand that Cass Fossed him and voting him is also more or less correct. I agree with you about Ythill, and therefore I'm going to reread a little bit our tense debate. Maybe there was even more of tunnel vision in both sides than I arrived to believe.

However, I didnt understand your "Ectomancer"'s comment. That was strange to me, so I analyzed the votes to look for it. And seems it was a mistake, right ?

The votes on habitang were (with my opinions):

1. nhat. He started the wagon. Even if I do not share all the arguments, I respect the essence of the "attack", as I said that I also find Habitang up in my suspects and he had not received any vote or attention more than superficial.

2. Simenon (and not Ectomancer) ! He just said...oh, i agree with nhat, lets put pressure.

3. Andycyca. Also lot of quotes and agreement with the attack.

4. Jahudo. Jahudo's post is more reasoned, not hidding in the forest of posts. Moreover, Habitang was insisting too much on him with very strange posts, so I perfectly understand his reaction.

Definitely, I also find the attack a bit exagerated, though it will be useful to either listen a bit more about habitang or to calm down him if he is a nervous townie. I guess Goat pointed out to Simenon (and not Ectomancer), Andy and Jahudo in his post. In my view, I consider the latter of these (Jahudo) perfectly natural, and want Simenon and Andy to post longer ideas on why he just "agreed" with nhat in the description...instead of looking for their own motivated reasons...

[nureins]

I noticed you're leaving out Cass, Goat.

He didnt. Cass Fossed Habitang, but she didnt vote him...

[nureins]

My top 3 suspects are not necessarily those voting for habitang, which seems to be a point of confusion.

Perfect. Then my previous post remains as my opinion on habitang voters, and Ill comment more on your 3 suspects when you elaborate.

Jahudo's reaction was not a surprise based on habitang's pushing of him all game, but that doesn't make it justified.

Im not trying to defend him, so let him to answer if it is justified or not. I just found it natural, and reading his vote-post, I havent found anything exagerated...of course, if the votes on habitang have been precipitated, I do not think all of them are equivalent, so I tried to expose my view...
Let's see if habitang's dance and your reflections make us to stop our lazy way

[nureins]

I noticed you're leaving out Cass, Goat.

Out of what?

The opportunistic club. I don't see why that necessarily has to refer to voting.

Given that she is the only person not voting, but fossing, instead of discussing about something immaterial, discuss on something material...Cass action...
Do you think Cass was opportunistic in fossing him ?


If this is the case, is your vote more opportunistic than her Fos or less oportunistic ?

[nureins]

I still feel worst about the lurkers in this game.

Just in case I have a different view on who the lurkers are...who are they ?

[nureins]

Tritch is numero uno obviously. The other are Nhat and Andycyca, who seem to be lurking in plain sight. I think there's a scum among them, I wish they would post more so I could find him... I'm not sure I should include Matin, as he is being replaced.

Ok Thanks. I was including Matin after somebody mentioned him. In the case of Andycyca, if this may help you, I have a curious impression. I found him participating, so I do not feel anymore he is a lurker. His posts have content, so that is ok. He is just very neutral in emotions, and then he lives in a "heaven". So this does not mean he is a lurker. My lurkers' vibes come from tritch, nhat and matin.

---------
Just to make a bit of fun, andy is quite different to Ectomancer, for instance. The latter I guess VOLUNTARILY adopts the position of a buddhist or a jedi master

[nureins]

(@sim)... what do you think of a player who is crafty enough to employ this tactic but daft enough to time it so poorly?

Ythill, Im reading positively from you lately, so do not take my words as an attack

I had the same impression from Habitang since the very beginning. Indeed, if you contemplate a bit the game, Cass is CONSTANTLY worried about what habitang can make in the game... have you seen it ? At some moments I found it excessive indeed.

If you remember, I think I did a read of this game at the beginning, and I understood what Cass meant about Habitang.

After some people started to point out suspicions on Cass, and having read her insistance about habitang, I decided to re-read the game, because she was townie for me...

A careful read confirmed my first read and I extracted no suspicions on Cass. I believe she is really worried about the bad play of habit, and habit is so erratic that is very hard to read...

[nureins]

I feel pretty strongly about Jahudo as scum, but of course there is always some doubt.

i know that i promised to analyze your post on your suspects, Goat. But the first reading about it, I had a strange impression. So I need lot of time.

You put lot of heavy arguments on someone I believed town. Especially coz habitang was the one who erratically (and frankly, very badly) pointed out to Jahudo. Maybe I was tempted to read him as townie as he was defending against such crap. And now, after habit stops pointing to jahudo ythill joins you. Someone that is going down in my vibes but yet high (answering to ythill, I have not completely changed my view, "my buddy", I read your posts as more townie later, that is different...)

Allow me to re-read deeply to answer you. Feel free to use me as a devil's advocate as Ill probably defend Jahudo.

With respect to Ectomancer, I didnt understand his vote on TPT, as I mentioned to him, but his vote on me is ok. He was trying to shake me on my attitude.

[nureins]

Finish re-read.


Indeed, I yet find TPT scummy to a point. I suppose he is also waiting for Tritcht's participation.

Post 104: I really dislike his FoS on habitang there. Does habitang misattributing a quote make him more likely to be scum?

Here you are mostly right. I did not like that one. But I found a possible reason for the "FOS". In the first part of this post, Jahudo was forced to insist on the previous mistake he had committed. This is not good for ego. In the second part, habitang was telling him something "bad" based on words of other person. This was not his mistake, so he reacted a bit harsh. This together with a series of erratic attacks by habitang lead to a (probably) inappropiate FOS. With respect to the rest of points, the coaching on habitang is perfectly understandable, due to habitangs' strange way. And it is also consistent along the game. He has chosen two of the most erratic players, he votes for them and explores them "his way".

I'm open to consider your points, which are partially convincing and changed a bit my view with the re-read. While I wait for Jahudo's words, let me provoke you a bit to extract more on all that.

1- Do you think I am right in my point that Jahudo was consistent ?

Because if you answer yes, I want to understand better the following. Andycyca was "consistent" in attacking some people for acting in concrete ways, even without considering the circumstances or the behavior of these players. This is like acting "theoretically", following a very rigid way, and for some people could be scummy (it was for you a little bit as he was in your list, right?). But you considered him less suspicious for being consistent.
Jahudo, simplifying, could have been doing something scummy as attacking/coaching/stopping couple of erratic players. Ok, I buy a little bit of all that.

2- But shouldnt consistency reduce your suspicions on him ?

If the answer is not, and this is the whole point of all this long post (sorry, really, I try but I cant. And english does not help )

3- Which are the differences among the two cases ? which of the two attitudes would scum choose to behave with, most probably and why ?

[nureins]

sorry, I copied my post from a text-document and I copied only half. Please add this before the other part


---

Ill try to resume some comments on Jahudo. Of course, they do not answer all your points on him. That is his task, and Ill read it very carefully...

I selected a couple of quotes just to start my mind-work and then elaborate a little bit on most of your points.

]There's an issue here. Jahudo is not and has not voted for TPT at all. He tosses suspicion on him whenever possible, but if he's so certain that TPT is scum, certain enough to make that statement to Simenon, then why hasn't he voted him?

In post 77, Jahudo committed a mistake due to a misunderstanding. If I have followed it correctly, he admitted it later (and more follows with habitang). Later, as you also point out, Jahudo explains in Post 137 why he refuses to vote tpt at the moment. This is in my view consistent with his playstyle, as he is not hurrying in votes or attacks to different people. It seems to me that he is observing and updating his scumeter until some people reach a very consistent scum position. In post 149 he voted for tpt due to a new bad intervention. I might consider this a quick change of mind at most, but I can interpret it very clearly. He "gaved" a chance to tpt and tpt decided to go on scummy, so he voted for him. Also, this explains the "coaching". He was observing him and shaking his attitude. TPT reacted very incorrectly and he voted for him.

Indeed, I ...GO TO POST 365

Funnily, Cass again had similar vibes to me. Again at the risk of buddying, he is like an iceberg in my scumeter...

[nureins]

And now, after habit stops pointing to jahudo ythill joins you.

What does the former have to do with the latter?

Do not start to see ghosts around again. If you see all my post, you will see that I consider habit a very "weird-bad" player, so his vote on jahudo was initially a reason for considering jahudo town, as I did. This is so because apart jahudo showed himself town, he had to defense from a bad player, and you want it or now, that provokes him to appear as more townie even...

The post of Goat was reasoned, and even if I do not share his points globally, I accept some of them. But I also "defended" jahudo because I think goat's points are not so strong. Your vote on him, you want it or not, is the vote of someone I consider partially scummy. The votes and reasons of people I consider scummy (as the votes and reasons of those I consider bad players) are not very informative to me. I wanted to mention that point, without any further impression.

your vote on jahudo was reasoned. Otherwise I would have debated with you, since I consider Jahudo townie more probably. Do not try to absorb Goat's time in chatting with me

With respect to "my buddy", it is not an isolated lurking couple of words but kinda joke to my favourite goebels in a very long post. I was answering Goat about Jahudo, do not focus so forcedly in an expression...

[nureins]

@Nureins: Habitang actually made a couple of decent points against Jahudo throughout the thread if I recall correctly.

Among a dozen, a couple is not a lot. I consider habitang a very weak player, and perceive his way of reasoning flawed.

Also, question for you: How does your perception of Jahudo's consistency (waits to gather evidence for a while prior to voting) correlate to his vote on habitang?

Personally I don't think he has been consistent in that manner as you do, but I'd like to see your answer to the above question.

I dont find him as much consistent as Andycyca (but consider also that tighting yourself to play with "RULES" in mind, is very easy for consistency). I wanted to hear your opinion about which kind of consistency was more scummier. You tried to answer all my questions, so that is good.

Now, with respect to your question, when I analyzed habitang's votes, I found his vote correct, as it was seriously reasoned. But after your words, I have thought a little bit more. This does not mean you have convinced me, but Im open to reasonings and like to discuss other people theories. My thoughts are the following.

I found Jahudo similar to my playstyle, as he waits to gather evidence, he makes reasoned posts, even he has said a bit above that it is his second game as mine, etc). I do not mind to cast some votes to sniff around, even I could cast a fourth vote as his if this would serve to make someone to react and participate if that person is lurking. But If I would have to decide to put a fourth vote on someone like habitang, probably id need a lot of security. This is so because he is already participating, and indeed, participating a lot. And more importantly because jahudo had a vis a vis with habitang and probably perceived how weak this player is. So putting a fourth vote in someone who is so weak and will talk crap when defending is dangerous.

@jahudo: do you consider habitang a weak player ? do you consider him a person that, in a position of a townie, could say stupid things and defend poorly ? If so, do you consider your fourth vote a bit dangerous (in other words, HOW SURE are you about him) ? Let me add that the point Goat raises in 378 (although i need to carefully read) sounds serious to me, so please dedicate time to answer these questions...you just wanted habit to talk you said, and that is something you might use in future steps. And this is connected to my point. You put a fourth vote to "make talk" someone you had seen talking really a lot, and in your mind, his talk was very poor...

@Nureins: Why does a weaker player attacking another player make that other player more likely to be town? Are you suggesting that a weak player is always going to be wrong day 1?

I did not say "make the other player more likely to be town". I said "make the other player to appear as.." or something like that. Nobody is rational. If you see someone defending against a weak player, his arguments seem more solid than they are. Even if I do not see strong withdraws in Jahudo, your case has influenced me for sure as it is quite reasoned. I also want to read Jahudo's answer with pause. Now Ythill also answered correctly, as he realized he misunderstood again and didnt doubt to admit it to someone with whom he had a fierce debate (well, he started the mail asking if I was threating him for pointing him out that he was seeing ghosts again, but he admitted a misunderstanding instead of developing such crap, so I feel is ok ). But Cass is also reading the aspects of the case that I consider "defend" jahudo, and Cass is iceberg-plain-townie for me.
In any case, Ill be looking carefully while tritch appears and starts to talk about tpt's behavior...

[nureins]

@all: Is Tritch playing ? He has only posted once and has said nothing !

@Tritch: May you answer our points ?

@Jahudo: I know you've answered thousands of points, but, would you mind to answer my questions ?

[nureins]

do you consider him a person that, in a position of a townie, could say stupid things and defend poorly ? If so, do you consider your fourth vote a bit dangerous (in other words, HOW SURE are you about him) ?

His post 306 came very suddenly and had the look of a defeated player but his posts before that did not build up to this act.

Votes at that point could have caused him to give up hope, caused him to self-vote and claim, etc. My vote also could have spurred reaction from him directed at me or others, or for him to calm down or do a number of things.

I wasn’t sure I knew what he was by reading post 306 but I also was confidant he wasn’t in danger like he said he was. My experience is in one 9 person setup so when I see a 7 to lynch it feels like more pressure is necessary to get more genuine responses than a 5 to lynch requires.

I would have expected a more elaborated defense in case jahudo was scum. That sounded very natural to me, and why not I could have felt the same to see more about habitang. Maybe his vote was not very appropiate, as he deviated attention from habitang to himself, but I dont find him especially suspicious.

From the list of votes to habitang, I yet find Andycyca and Simenon as the more unreasoned ones and for me, the more suspicious (if any). Reading their posts, it is hard to say if they believe habitang is suspicious or why...

[nureins]

Nuriens, you roll too easily.

Jah claims, in defending against you, that he thinks habit is semi-experienced. Then he argues against me that habit obviously hasn't learned from his measly four games. Jah's playing both sides of the coin when it suits him.

Ythill, you are again building cases with false premises. Jahudo did not say habit was semi-experienced when answering me. If he said something, he said the same than to you, that is, that habitang is not very experienced. Tell me where you have read what you claim Jahudo said...

His only reference to experience is:

@jahudo: do you consider habitang a weak player ?

I don’t think so. It might be more appropriate to say he’s more inexperienced than some others here and is still learning aspects of the game, but so am I.

[nureins]

Obviously, the last quote is JAHUDO talking about HABITANG.
Sorry for the misquote

[nureins]

@nuriens: The question is pointless because you've answered it with the quote you've given. Calling somebody "more experienced than others here and still learning aspects of the game" is calling them semi-experienced.

Are you serious ?
He said "more inexperienced" not more experienced...

[nureins]

I know this is long but bear with it.

If it seems like I'm playing both sides and giving in to you by dropping suspicion it's that for all the bad stuff habit did below, he just feels like an impatient person to me. Semi-experienced if that means he hasn't played enough long games to know that patience is a virtue. But my opinions are not enough because we've been too focused on one another so what does everyone else think of this:

Be careful with the language you use. Ythill wanted to put in your mouth the word semi-experienced as to mean that you insinuated he was experienced.

I clearly see you think of Habitang as an inexperienced person, so do not fall in his language game

Ill try to answer your views on habitang in all I can...(ill not quote jahudo points for avoiding a long post. Ill simply use the numbers he uses.

1 – I perceive you are right in this point. I found your action pretty coherent due to Tpt's attitude. And Habitang was a bit inconsistent, since he also found tpt's attitude bad...later he tried to disentangle a bit why he fossed you, but i dont buy this argument.

2 – This is closely related to 1 and the same applies.

3 – Here I do not see any problem in both of you.

4 – Here all depends about the mason fishing i guess. I have to admit that I understood first your "partner" word as scum-partners, so i didnt understand very well everything. Later, I thought you refered to any town-partner kind of role, and given i have no idea about which can be exactly and that it took me a lot of time just to find bit of information about which they could be, i opted to wait for comments on people. In any case, that of course is not a point I buy from him, but it is delicate if experienced people yet remain in this point.

6 – nothing to say.

7 – At this point I was understanding better what Cass said in his first post...

9 – nothing to say

10 – That I found curious in two ways. On one hand, I was really surprised how someone could do that, so I asked him about it in order to understand TPT. On the other hand, I felt that could be a signal of "compassion" to TPT, which i didnt understand very well...

11 – I agree with you.

13 – Here I perceived that he might be totally lost and probably was the first post in which my soft suspicions on him calmed down. I interpreted as a signal of "desperation" searching without any clear direction.

14 – And this confirmed me that it was better not to follow his reasonings too much.

23 – More signals of loss...i guessed he didnt know where to look exactly...

28 – Here I have to admit I stopped reading him a lot. The same applies to the no-lynch and further blablabla with nonsense.

30 – nonsense

31 – nonsense

33 – desperation and impatience on him.

37 – And ill leave it here too, as you stopped here...but I felt he was totally out of his mind with the post on himself. And Cass was really afraid of losing a lynch with such a stupid behaviour, and I bought this attitude...

-continuous jumps plus withdraws.
-admits his impatience
-focusing on one person
-no lynch after unsuccesful look

Summarizing your points, I think you are correct at reading the posts, but not at interpreting habitang's attitude behind them. I interpret all that more like an inexperienced lost player looking for scum without realizing there are no certainties in this game and therefore desperating...So answering you, I dont think you are focusing too much on him. Probably the case is that he is focusing too much on you as you were the only fish he thought he could get. Someone had analyzed previous habitang's games. Ill do, coz one of them ended up with him "autovoting" and im thinking that probably he has not guessed up correctly who scum were in many occassions

Ill mantain you informed about my observations...

[nureins]

The people making the long posts are really making it hard for the people with partial access.

Could you please minimize your PBPA just a little bit, Jah? It would be a big help.

Not to be offensive, Jah already did a summary of his points at the end of his post. I dont want to assume anything, but your posts were equally long and frequent when your access was full, so access is not very relevant in your case...

[nureins]

The people making the long posts are really making it hard for the people with partial access.

Could you please minimize your PBPA just a little bit, Jah? It would be a big help.

I dont want to assume anything, but your posts were equally long and frequent when your access was full,.

hm?

Jahudo's post was long, but reasoned. He was making a case just "copying" the method that goat followed. The fact that he does its own way and doesnt talk as an expert as Goat while he did his case is nothing bad for town. I have been able to follow jah's arguments and to answer him, the same I followed goat's. So I clearly have the feeling that you are "attacking" jahudo in a subtle way by suggesting that he does the game "hard to follow". So he might be suspect of complicating things. Especially relevant if this does not allow you to follow the game because you have no access, huh ? poor you...

So I do think your posts are equally long and have equal content. So your partial access is not affecting your game too much. If you are gonna use your access as part of the game, we also can...and I dont like what I see.

[nureins]

The question here is what

you

think. Habit is not a weak player? Habit is inexperienced? Habit is scummy? Habit is just a n00b? I am honstly confused as to your opinion.

Of course this is an interesting question. That I already answered when I commented Jahudo's case in a long post. If you make me to repeat everybody is gonna hate me

But being succint to help you, at the end of post 413 I said...(during all post 413 you can see my changing views on him during the game, more or less correlated with the list of posts by habit)

I interpret all that more like an inexperienced lost player looking for scum without realizing there are no certainties in this game and therefore desperating...So answering you, I dont think you are focusing too much on him. Probably the case is that he is focusing too much on you as you were the only fish he thought he could get.

[nureins]

Or maybe I'm just frustrated because your ramblings tend to focus on defending people who are perfectly capable of defending themselves.

The only scenario under which Im able to see your frustration is that you are scum and you would like to lynch an innocent I would defend...

otherwise, I guess my point of view reaches to positive discussion on people around. Is there any of my points that you consider irrelevant or biased ? Please point it out. Id like to hear from you a little bit.

Indeed, your vote to habitang is the most unreasoned, and your first participation in the game was defending someone who was "perfectly capable of defending himself" by saying, hey guys, he is town. I prefer to give reasons for stating my opinions, that is obviously different.

And by the way, it sounds to me extremely suspicious that you have a vote on a player, Jahudo makes a full case on that player, and instead of making comments and read profusely, you ask this player to be concise, forget to comment on him and focus on ridiculous lurking things around him...

My vote remains on the new player until he decides to answer all the points about his old identity. My best lurking player vote up to now is the one I have.

My best active player lynch up to now is Simenon.

[nureins]

Less verbose =/= less reasoned.

See? I managed to say that in four words, plus three symbols.

You probably would have said it in at least seventeen paragraphs.

Which makes my vote and my reasons clear to everyone, so I dont hide anything and seems protown for someone like me to whom you ask for completing games. Instead, you just say:

- TPT is town
- I agree with that, I vote for habitang.

And therefore you dont say anything in particular and you can justify later your assertions and votes in dozens of ways, allowing to hide and complicated the information.

Is there anything you would like me to comment on?

Yes, I want you to explicit your suspects and provide with reasoned arguments for your suspicions.

Otherwise, shut up.

Trying to occupy a position of superiority and making "inexperienced" people to shut up when they are participating and sharing information sounds to me quite scummy...

[nureins]

The only scenario under which Im able to see your frustration is that you are scum and you would like to lynch an innocent I would defend...

What? "Would" twice in the same phrase seems too confusing to me

Sorry for that. Shortening sentences is not my best skill.
Simenon expressed that he was frustrated due to my reasonings defending Jahudo. He expressed also a very strange sentence about people being able to defend themselves.

In my opinion, this is not a game about having more ability to attack or defend individually. So expressing my opinions on jahudo (and the rest of players) in an open way is exactly what I consider we should do: share information and approach to better lynches...

The only scenario under which he could be "frustrated" due to my opinions on jahudo is that he is scum trying to lynch an innocent and my reasoned defence stops him. Otherwise, I do not know why so much frustration with someone who tries to discuss and reason points of the game...

My best active player lynch up to now is Simenon.

Why exactly (not counting the amount of words he writes)?

summarizing:

1. His totally unreasoned defence of TPT that deviated attention.
2. His, in my opinion, totally incoherent defence of this vote later on when Cass and myself debated about that. He arrived to say that he was not interested in decreasing the number of votes in TPT, when he considered him town...
3. A poor attack on Cass that combined
- A misquote generating a sense of pairing with me
- A false argument about backtracking, since Cass never accused him of anything.

This lead me to vote him. We had kinda fierce debate and I stopped my vis a vis with him.

He has only mantained the same high place in my scumeter. In the late posts due to his
4. vote on habitang just "agreeing" with the person that initiated the wagon
5. Uninterest, in my opinion, in following the case on habitang, who is the person to whom he is voting for.
6. Trying to "eliminate" discussion among "inexperienced" players in his late "shut up" comment.

I cannot see how he has contributed to the game. He only post unreasoned comments, attack on the contrary the playstyle of players who desire to contribute and collaborate, as at least Cass, Habitang, Jahudo...

[nureins]

Otherwise, shut up.

You can't tell people to shut up in this game. Sorry.

Finger of Shame Simenon

.

Back to my read.

I get angry when new players try to lecture me on what "town would never" do.

lecture you ?
You are the only one asking others to shut up and imposing his view without reasonings and simply stating things as fundamental truths. I do not try to impose my view at all, but have the right to play, I hope...so I give my opinions about players' actions, including yours...

[nureins]

vote: Nuriens

is that a kind of easy vote ? Id like to know your reasons, because the only attempt to provide suspicions on people was a sentence saying that Cass and I were a possible scumpair...

[nureins]

Let me simplify your criticisms on Goat, that I consider important for my next analysis. Please do not doubt to correct me if I interpreted one of them badly, as Im simplifying coz people is tired of long posts

1. Change of playstyle
2. rips posts out of context
3. tunnel vision
4. sophistification
5. lack of evidence in the case

In my opinion, the first 3 points apply basically to every case that could be built. The player writes on a particular person and modifies his playstyle, focus on some particular posts, deriving into tunnel vision at some moment. For point 4, If the player is skilled as Goat seems to be, he is sophisticated and tries to make the case as elaborated as possible.

In my opinion, your view is totally wrong, as Goat's case has been quite interesting. Even if I do not agree with his conclusions, his case is basically scumhunting. This can be observed by the intense debate generated, with serious points, and even leading Jahudo to accept some points, reconsider lot of things about habitang, etc.

If I have to say something, I do not mind that silar (ex tritch ex tpt) elaborates a theory on my pairing with cass, but clearly i see you could be trying to "satisfy" cass and me who were voting you. That would be done by criticizing goat (since cass and me were "defending" jahudo in this case) and fossing simenon, for whom we have suspicions.

And you postponed answering about TPT as we demanded for you, maybe hoping to have us relaxed situating yourself in similar positions...

I still want your opinion about TPT (of course, you are not him, I know that...)

[nureins]

Now, that's

really

simple, isn't it. I really don't believe that you can properly reply to my post if you just use that oversimplified summary. I'm going to try to summarize my own post, and it'll be more complete.

Of course I was simple. I announced that precisely, that I was going to be simple. I can develop my points if you really think I am simple, but the rest of players seem not to like my long post. It is difficult for me to be concise and at the same time describe my ideas. So here I go developing a bit more.

1. Passive play, not what I'm used to see of Goatrevolt, so this is scummy in itself. You didn't include that in your summary.

I included but very briefly. My point was exactly that any player, when doing a case on someone, typically writes more than did before. Indeed, Goat said at some moment he would like to participate more and I guess describing his suspects and doing a case on the most scummish for him was his way to participate more. I find this very natural. I havent metagamed Goat, so in that aspect I cannot comment, maybe you are right.

2. Change of play style to being less passive, although his new playing style is less scummy, the change in itself is a scum tell. A towny wouldn't do that, in my opinion.

I find all the play style coherent along the game, due to the comments I did before. Having a play style does not mean necessarily to write in a monotone way all the time, but collaborating in a particular way and of course, depending on the circumstances of the game, the personal aspects or real life, other issues, etc...

3. Nureins, you're completely wrong on the other points. I am not saying

Goatrevolt

is tunnel visioned, I am saying that the

method

Goatrevolt used is tunnel visioned in itself, and that Goatrevolt is experienced enough to know that and perhaps abuse it if he's scum.

I do not think Im wrong. Precisely, Goat is conscious of tunnel vision and even announces it. He is not doubting in letting his mind to focus on the scum particular aspects of a player (in this case jahudo), because he thinks he is scum due to the general aspect of the game, so he tries to simplify the information for the rest of players. And since he openly admits the possibility of tunnel vision, other players can discuss his points openly and point him out this and other aspects. This also allows, and Ive seen an open debate, other players occupying a opposite position if they believe jah is town. By the way, I largely did so, and Ive perceived in jah and ythill a cooperative debating attitude, even if they occupy a different position. This allows me to see Goat ok in his jahudo case, though I do not share his opinion (and by passing, ythill has gone down too in my scumeter, maybe both of us were tunnel visioned too in our dispute).

A very different situation would have been if Goat position was closed to comments and completely sure of his position as you maybe try to suggest with your comments.

Since you say sophistication is not a scum tell, Ill not comment 4.

5. A scum tell you did not include is that Goatrevolt lurks at times where it's convenient for him to do so.

He is far away from being the king of lurkers in this game. I have 2 or 3 persons clearly up in lurkers list, and he is not one of them. I guess it is not needed to go on a full description of his activity in the game for seeing that...


With respect to your quote on goat, i guess i already answered above.

[nureins]

Note that I didn't tell nuriens to "shut up".

The charge that I have not "provided enough content" was in fact exactly what I responding to, Ask me what to comment on, and we'll get somewhere.

Otherwise, well, you know.

Ummm, if I remember well, my suspicions derive essentially from:

- You make a completely out of reason assertion.
- I or somebody else point to you that and ask for clarification.
- You answer without any content again.


This included the "TPT is town", your vote on habitang and now it has to include your "shut up" point.

- You make a completely out of reason assertion (by suggesting people was lecturing you and writting such "shut up" point.
- I pointed out that this sounds like lecturing and undervaluing other players (maybe those who point out your scummish actions, dunno), and at the same time, writting very clearly what I wanted you to answer, not to let you use the shut up point by deviating attention as always.
- Again, you prefered to enter a stupid nonsense debate about if your "shut up" was linguistically an imposition or a sentence with two options available...I asked for your suspects and reasoned arguments about them being scummish for you, it seems you didnt read that part...

[nureins]

nuriens, look at the way you and Cass teamed up against Simenon for very poor reasons. A lot of what I see in those posts seems evident of a scumpair pushing a wagon. The way Cass jumped off looked like she realized it was a lost cause and tried to get you to get off too.

1. I dont see the team at any place. Simenon did what Im expressing for long. Other players also found it very strange and asked about it, including Cass.

2. I try to look at the very poor reasons, and I dont see them at any point. On the other hand, I see a clear antitown attitude which is extremely suspicious. Especially coz it is repeated...

3. For Cass jumping off, I need to re-read but I do not remember it.

4. For Cass trying to ask me for geting off, thanks for noticing, since it is first news. It seems Cass was not successful on that, as Simenon is on top of my scumeter, especially as he reiterates his attitudes.

Since you have a clear case on a scum pair, Id like to know which part of Cass and myself arguing on Simenon unreasoned post you think is a fake...and if you like, you can go on with simenon unreasoned vote to habitang and his last shut up issue in which again, he prefered not to answer me and again not to give reasons, suspects, etc...are you able to specify who his suspects are and his reasons, or who his townies are and his reasons
Maybe you can answer me, and that way we all learn a bit...

[nureins]

About Jahudo's case against habitang in post 411, I think that is a pretty good sum up. What I'd really like to know is why nureins decided to up and defend habitang out of the blue in post 413. Not just in passing, either, it was a long winded post.

FoS - Nureins

I am not Jahudo. So I have not to agree with Jahudo in everything. I saw his comments correct as for the descriptive part...but I wanted him to see that you can interpret all this attitude as part of a weak player who rushes impatiently because his only fish in the lake, which was jahudo,may escape

This does not mean I have completely forgotten Habitang as a suspicious player. Simply that for the moment I have better candidates and he is dancing around not on the top. This is what I transmitted to Jahudo, and probably was a compromising point in between who find him suspicious for his case on habitang, and his point of view which is "habitang is suspicious". Im not buying any, since I truly believe jahudo is building a case on habitang that is somewhat consistent, but I do not agree with his conclusions.

[nureins]

@Goatrevolt: Please jump in and reply to my case, and how nureins handles it.

Which case? If you re-read the game (seems you have to do it), my vote on TPT was because he was a top lurker and his attitude with the first wagon on him was terribly suspicious. From my initial list of suspects:

- TPT never stopped lurking, Tritch did nothing and I was waiting to have a vis a vis with the person replacing, which is you now...my view from outside was that he was scummy somehow, and now in the vis a vis, I dont like the way you have started.

- Simenon sounded scummish to me both in the vis a vis and from outside, so he is in my top suspects list.


- habitang was difficult to catalogue, so I put him at some weak player list and remain looking at him.

- Ythill did very badly in the vis a vis, but from outside things are nicer and he is going down.

- andycyca was lurking a bit but his participation after Cass shaking has been ok. Of course, I have an eye on everyone, but his activity is ok.

Couple of persons are opering my eyes a bit, but Ill go on looking a bit before expressing opinions...

Now, that's

really

simple, isn't it. I really don't believe that you can properly reply to my post if you just use that oversimplified summary. I'm going to try to summarize my own post, and it'll be more complete.

Do not get confounded. I simplified the "essence" of your 5 points in order not to quote them completely. Of course I read them very largely and I answered them properly with my views on them, that I consider wrong-based, as Goat participation has been quite useful. Notice how many people is discussing on jahudo and habitang, which does not mean we are tunnel visioned by goat in any sense, but sharing information in a townie way in my opinion.

You was too simple. You manipulated my points and turned them into something I don't approve of. You cannot defend a case that way.

Which manipulations ? I just described the essence of each of your points to give my opinion on them. My critiques on you were based on the possibility (not certainty) of you trying to please Cass and me in your suspects list..

By the way, if you consider Simenon scummy but yourself townie, how do you interpret simenon participation to defend tpt when a big wagon was over you ??

People were starting to suspect Goat for not participating, so he might have wanted to suddenly participate more, and you know that scum are paranoid.

I do not agree with this point. Not many suspicions over him. If he was scum and he is so expert as you claim he is, he wouldnt have written a long post on his suspects and build a case on someone. Instead he would have started to participate a bit more...

But what he did is consistent with the interpretation I gave in previous post. So my view remains...

(about goat and tunnelvision)
So basically, if you do something scummy and admit it, it's alright? That's really not a valid argument imo.

??
I said he didnt anything scummy. It is you who thinks so. I said that goat and tunnel vision was not a scum hidding issue, but more an open discussion...and that his case on jahudo is open to scrutiny and debate with ythill, jahudo, habitang, cass and myself...and this debate is not tunnel visioned as many views are present. So goat is not forcing any tunnel visioned view about jahudo...and therefore i dont consider his action and comments suspicious at all...

Not a scumtell, but it means he's experienced so you can be damn sure he knows what he does.

I am "damn" sure. Why do you want me to be so "damn" sure about that ?
Yes, he knows what he does. He is an expert player. Perfect, I read his suspicions with detail and I comment them. Precisely much more than Habitang ones, precisely because Im damn sure that jahudo knows what he does...so i looked much more carefully at jahudo after his comments, much more than with habitang ones...

The fact that he knows what he does and he is an expert player has nothing to do with him being scummy...so i mantain my view...

5. A scum tell you did not include is that Goatrevolt lurks at times where it's convenient for him to do so.

He is far away from being the king of lurkers in this game. I have 2 or 3 persons clearly up in lurkers list, and he is not one of them. I guess it is not needed to go on a full description of his activity in the game for seeing that...

How does this clear him in any way? The fact that there are two real lurkers only makes it easier for him to slide under the radar by posting only a little bit more than them. You are only reinforcing my point here.

first, Im not clearing him. For me trying to clear him, first I would need to see a case on him. And you were not building a case as you used no quote or analysis of his posts, but simply launched generic impressions to the air. Impressions that I founded quite incorrect.

second, about the lurkers. Precisely you described very well, "slide under the radar by posting only a little bit more than them". This is what i said before, if he would be scummy and panicked a bit, he would have started to write a little bit more than some others. But no, he gave openly his suspects and build a consistent case on one of them. For me, that was townie...

[nureins]

@Nureins: I would very much prefer if you didn't defend other players before giving them a chance to defend themselves. The way people react and reply to cases built against them is useful information. By answering for them, you provide them with opportunities to just recycle what you say and rob the town of that information.

Notice that Silardinot's case on you was for me not a case, but a way to please Cass and me (together with the fos to simenon). So I didnt consider a serious case at all as my points were pretty consistent, my view on you quite solid and my interest more focused on seeing his reaction to my answers and making a vis a vis with him. Maybe I lost something in an spontaneous answer by yourself, but as I said, my view and points were pretty clear and you have only confirmed this view with your words.

When I did the same with your case on jahudo maybe you were right and i should have waited for him to give an answer. But notice also that I do not agree with jahudo on habitang's case, so I was also interested on how jahudo reacted to the existence of an intermediate position in between his attack to habitang (habitang scumness, lets say) and your view on his attack (that was a scum tell attack, lets say).

But since other players build their cases with the intention of listening the answer of those who they attack, i mostly agree with you and Ill try to give my opinion or check my intuitions/views after a first large response is given by the main person. Im sorry...

[nureins]

Why? You didn't back up this opinion.

If you refer to TPT, I already described long ago. I didnt interpret his autovote as a irrational rushed townie. Especially due to his announced rationality (and I do not only refer to his autoclaim of rationality, but for instance about his announcement that he couldnt be metagamed here in mafiascum and related stuff)

If you refer to yourself, I also backed up. I described the please of your voters, Cass and me, by defending jahudo (attacking goat) and fossing simenon...

So you find me scummy because of the possibility that I have some greater plan to 'please' you? I think you're being hypocrite here.

A extreme simplification for someone who asks for not simplifying (curiously, I wrote a much more elaborated post and description of the issues involved). Obviously, your reasoning is completely biased. I was voting you because you started your read and posting...you cant avoid you have a past in which you didnt participate.

By the way, you avoided the main points about TPT and simenon I asked you in the previous post...

[nureins]

Because is BEFORE in the previous post. Sorry...

[nureins]

I realize there is a language barrier here. I do not fully understand what you want to do. I do speak some spanish, and if it is easier for you to converse with me and get your point across in spanish, I would not object to you posting it in another language.

This is a forum in english, and all players speak english...I do not perceive the barrier anywhere. I simply try to construct elaborated arguments and typically forget that english requires more simplicity than spanish does. If you try to use my poor english with a purpose of deviating the topic you started, Im not interested either.

Here you have an enumeration with simple sentences.

1. Which of the actions by Cass and Me where scummy while debating with simenon ?

2. Why is my/our point about simenon incorrect ?

3. Which of our points were false accusations ?

Given that you do not consider my point on Simenon correct:

4. Are you able to explain reasonably why his "TPT is town" ?

5. Do you consider reasoned his vote on habitang ?

6. Why is he avoiding to answer my point after the "shut up" ?

7. Are you able to specify Simenon suspects and his reasons ?

8. Are you able to specify who are townies for Simenon and which his reasons are ?

If my english is correct enough in this enumerated list, we can go on with our conversation.

@ythill. Thanks for the clarifying post. I really laughed.

[nureins]

Please don't converse in another language. Everything you say in this game is meant to be read by all.

He has already posted it in English. Andycyca, a third party, is fluent in spanish and can vouch for the spanish that it is not hiding anything.

You can stop wondering. I am not gonna use spanish in this forum. I fully agree with Goat's comment. You can ask for any repetition or reformulation of my sentences.

[nureins]

I don't get the reasoning why Nureins is grilling him like this. As a matter of fact, I think that he's been making a show of participating and making discussion, and it quite frankly makes it a drag to reread this game.

?

Please read cautiously the posts. Citizen argued about the english barrier. I just tried to simplify my exposition in an enumerated, concise (and probably direct way). Do not get anything from the tone of the post, cause it was forced due to the english issue...I do not write this way very often, I prefer to express largely...

The point is that Citizen argued about Cass and me as a pair, putting as a reason some of my (our) arguments. It seems to me that he then considers these arguments incorrect. So I wanted to know which of them exactly, his view, etc...my enumerated list does so in a simplified way...
That way I can check if his attack on me and Cass is fake or real. It seems Cass decided, I had not even started to wonder because he has not answered my points yet...

Jahudo also pointed out a nice thing. It is curious that he was not included in the pairing list when he was sharing some of our arguments. I also want to hear citizen on that, because it is suspicious to me that Citizen prefered to point out a pairing in between Cass and Me and avoid Jahudo who was in the center of the discussions...

[nureins]

Sim told nuriens to shut-up in response to what was a frustrating post in which nuriens made a ridiculous assertion (only scum get frustrated)

Ive found the rest of your post fairly accurate.

However, just to clarify this point, Simenon expressed his frustration because I was "defending" people. And to this point I answered about scum getting frustrated. Obviously, I wanted to express the idea that I dont see the problem of defending people (this was later developed in my post with Goat, but as always, Goat expressed it in a rational way that allowed clarification and debate, while Sim just expressed in a nonsense way that allows all interpretations...). I would never get frustrated by someone defending somebody with rational arguments. Sometimes it is even very positive to avoid tunnel vision or misunderstandings...so I dont think my assertion was ridiculous. But your post is generally good and you mostly coincide with my views, so you can even not answer this point, people can have different opinions...

In any case, a minor issue in a well elaborated post in general. It is difficult to find sirdan so influenced by Confirmation Bias (since he analyzes everything from the perspective of Goat being scum). Betting for him scum is for me much more simple as an explanation, especially given his replacees...

[nureins]

the problem with you (nuriens) is not your habit of defending others but the fact that you do so

before they defend themselves

which gives people way too many outs if they are scum. On that subject, I agree with Sim.

I don't think this aspect of your behavior is a scumtell, just inexperience.

I agree with the last part. But not with the first paragraph. You agree with Goat, not with Sim
Notice how Sime didnt mention at all in his post about my attitude of defending ppl before letting them to defend. This was noted by goat later. Sim just made a very general and unreasoned assertion "shut up", that later on can be defended/used/interpreted/etc, in any form.

On the contrary, Goat made a concrete critique to my attitude that I debated/shared/punctualized leading to a clear view of my words on Sirdanilot-Goat or Goat-jahudo...

Notice precisely how you have finally ended interpreting that Simenon wanted to tell me not to defend people before they defend themselves (you say in your post that you agree with him). But he has not expressed this view in any post...it was goat who did...

The same attitude when claiming that tpt was town or when just voting habitang just agreeing with previous voters...
This is my main critique to simenon, as you can remember from my posts...

[nureins]

@nuriens: LOL. At first I had attributed it all to Goat. Then, before posting, I realized that Sim had said the first part. Then I changed both names to Sim. Sorry I got confused. The real point I was making was about the timing of your defenses, irrespective of who it was I was agreeing with. Understand?

I perfectly understand the point of the timing. Precisely I answered to Goat with detail on that point. I have no problem in accepting im a newbie and learning about the game. But you also understand my point. Sim is not stating reasons for his votes, his town-reads, his game actions, etc...
which is very bad for town in my opinion, as this allows him to justify later in any way he needs...

In any case, my vote remains in sirdan now with more conviction, and seems not to be any serious debate on simenon...

[nureins]

Hahahaha. Whatever, scum.

That is awful, Ythill. Even if you are town, that is really anti-town as you make your arguments weaker with that attitude...

By the way, I found Sirdan almost called you Goebels for your attitude. I guess this was too much But he is not doing his task correctly, as he used as an argument your last sentence in which you just asked for other people to vote for him...if i interpreted correctly, that was not equivalent to this last post...

But clearly some of your comments are not very adequate to your attack. Ill post later on a couple of things I consider relevant and Sirdan is not covering...

[nureins]

(about my simplification in which sirdan says i manipulated his words and ythill says it was just a simplification).

You didn't really explain why, you just generally said that you thought he did it well and that he was fair. You didn't say

why

.

Curiously, you accusing ythill of something you are doing. You didnt say either why I "manipulated" your criticisms to goat. This is for me the crucial aspect of all that (because i think you just prefered to say I manipulated your words to avoid my point that your attack on Goat was very poor and suggest some reason for this fake). Also is the one concerning me, and I leave the rest to Ythill not to insist too much on that.

Please, tell me where I committed a big crime in simplifying your accusations to Goat.

Up until about page 14, he was very passive. Then came the case on Jahudo. A subtle, but sudden change of playing style, which I perceive as a scum tell. This case was certainly well-thought out, but the thing is, I question the usefulness of such a PBPA in itself. There are several flaws with it.

I called that "change of style".

Why is that a manipulation of your argument?
did you think or not that goatrevolt changed his style?
Was this one of the arguments to find goat scummy?

it rips the posts out of context, at least if you use the method of only showing posts by one user. And even if you don't, you tend to merely glance over the other posts.

So I just quoted this argument as "rips posts out of context"
is not that what you mean ? Why am i manipulating your argument ?
did you think goatrevolt ripped posts out of context and was this one of your arguments or not?

Tunnel vision. You see the player who you are analyzing in the light of what you are trying to prove. I could go fancy by calling a famous psychiatrist's name who did some research of that effect, although I don't see how that would benefit the town perhaps nureins would. Anyway, you pick out the scumtells, and as they are also out of context they get magnified.

I called that "tunnel vision". You called it like that, so I guess my simplification is not very criminal, is it ?
do you think goat committed tunnel vision or not?

Goatrevolt is a skilled player. Firstly, he has the ability to make the PBPA so that it looks (and, to some extent, is) sophisticated, thought out well and not just thrown together. This could be perceived as pro-town. Secondly, he knows that he has to add some pro-town bits (with that I mean something like: '#x - good post, town tell'), and he did.

I called this Sophistication. Probably this was the more difficult to comprise in a couple of words, but I guess you more or less wanted to say something about the sophistication in goat's style of posting, and the consequences of all that...

Fact remains is that such a pbpa is not really solid evidence. Scum could pick out some scumtells that a towny did, town could magnify minor scumtells of a towny, or the same with a mafia-aligned player. What I mean to say is that Goat's PBPA (two of 'em, actually) is not a town-tell at all. Combined with his change of play, it's a scum tell.

I quoted all that as "lack of evidence in the case". isnt that what u wanted to say ?

After quoting the 5 paragraphs by their "titles" i gave my opinion on the weakness of your case (the first 3 points are just common things in an elaborated case and especially they were even announced by some posts of goat and he never tried to do that in a hidden way or with a scum attitude. his sophistication is nothing scummy and in my view his case was solid, even if I dont find it convincing) and wondered if you just wanted to please Cass and me with that attack on Goat (or defense on jahudo) and your other attack to simenon...

Maybe you prefered me to copy all your 5 paragraphs to sum up your reasons to vote goat, dunno why. Here you have them now and my question remains.

Where did I manipulate your reasons to accuse goat, where did i manipulate your case? I could understand you debate my opinion on Goat and your case, but i really dont see how i manipulated your case. Clearly I think you tried to deviate attention.

I disagree. His summary was incorrect, and I don't think he should have posted a summary of my case, and I even less think that he should have based an argument on it. And how am I the manipulator here?

Again, even if i repeat myself, Where was my summary incorrect ?
I prefered to do a concise summary of your case before saying why i thought it was weak and suggesting your pleasing post. I think this helps the reading...
Why cant i base an argument on your cases? I thought your case was a fake and i exposed it...

[nureins]

You've first hand experience with my badgering, but it came out alright in the end, didn't it?

not completely, as I said in some post, my analysis of you vis a vis remains negative, because I didnt like some of the arguments you mistakenly used. From outside however, you seem to be scumhunting, and I cant even see that you are just shaking sirdanilot with an aggressive way. But I dont think this is so good, since for someone not very focused on the precise discussion, it seems your arguments are weaker. And in this occasion, i think they are mostly correct with respect to sirdanilot view on simenon...

And I have my own points on sirdan about Goat (and about the predecessors or sirdan) and I think the case is solid...so your way of acting is not good...I think Sirdan must answer all the questions raised up (i guess he is gonna answer to me, which ones, write them blablabla) and point it out if he doesnt...

[nureins]

And note that I didn't really find you suspicious (except for one aspect of your attack) before this post. I just saw your attack as a fellow towny who'd gone wrong. That's totally different now.

I'll address other points in this thread later on.

After 20 pages this is the major scumtell you have found in all the game? as much as to make you vote him?

and yes, im waiting for your answer...

[nureins]

No, I am suspecting Goatrevolt and Simenon as well. However, I did think that that post warranted a vote, more than anything those two people have done. Goatrevolt defended himself well (but not to the point that I cleared him), and I just think Ythill is more suspicious than Simenon.

The point is that according to you:

And note that I didn't really find you suspicious (except for one aspect of your attack) before this post. I just saw your attack as a fellow towny who'd gone wrong. That's totally different now.

However, according to you, Goat

- changed his playstyle
- ripped posts out of context
- tunnel-visioned
- played sophisticately
- built a case without evidence

Can you explain me how all these things that you found scumtells are not enough to vote goat and ythill couple of words are enought to vote him after a series of posts with you ?

[nureins]

When the heat goes up, the gambits begin. Do you already feel so doomed that you need to set up red herrings for after your death?

That I didnt understand and given the game I prefer not to have forgotten and mysterious things from you...

might you clarify this to me ?

[nureins]

Sure. I was suggesting that after he dies and card-flips scum, sirdan is hoping that we'll see Jah and Karne as his buddies. It would be a beautiful WIFOM game if one of them actually was, but I'm not sure he's that complex of a player and I'll leave that sort of examination for after he's dead.

Ok, I understand.
Now, I dont like your playstyle. You talk as if you were completely sure about scumness of people. I understand that this can have a positive effect if your attacked player blunders, but I also think it may have a negative effect as people may be easily influenced by your way of presenting cases. Are you so sure about sirdan ? This is probably a question I should formulate at my newbie game, but none of my suspicious insofar have been very conclusive, i always feel the probabilities of people being scum just move a bit from the random initial stage...(and Im a self-confident person, so nothing related to that).
I dont want to deviate attention, just my view on you is a bit affected lately...in any case, my vote is also waiting for important things or it will remain...

[nureins]

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. I don't recall you badgering anyone like you are doing to me, or I would've surely noted it.

wow, i planed to answer the long 3 posts but i need to recover from this shock first !

[nureins]

Second post on my "manipulation"

So basically, there are minor discrepancies in point 4 (sophistication) and from that you deduce i manipulated your post ??
i just used couple of words to define your arguments not to copy all of it...minor discrepancies are the result of a simplification. I clearly gave advice of that.

And obviously, i didnt answer you according to my summary. I read very carefully your whole post and answered according to your post, not to my summary. The summary was for the rest of people to follow the debate. I already had said so in a previous post, but you seem not to read them a lot...

Given the previous comment on ythill, it seems you havent read my posts all along the game...

[nureins]

nuriens' posting strategy:
Make bad argument.
Respond to contrary opinion by repeating the bad argument.
Respond to contrary opinion by repeating the bad argument.
Respond to contrary opinion by repeating the bad argument.
Respond to contrary opinion by repeating the bad argument.
Accuse poster of contrary opinion of repeating himself.
Respond to contrary opinion by repeating the bad argument.
Respond to contrary opinion by repeating the bad argument.
Accuse poster of contrary opinion of not reading nurien's posts "all along" and of repeating himself.

Which is exactly what sirdan's posting strategy will do to the appearance of an opponent who engages him in his silly game. Do you really not see that?

I do not agree. Neither with Sim nor with you.

1. Make bad argument.

Where are my arguments to sirdan bad? First, I had some arguments against TPT (tritch only with silence, but not relevant). With respect to sirdan, my first argument has not been even answered by him (pleasing cass and me with his very poor accusations). Another argument now is that he said i manipulated his goat case, and i havent done. In his last post, he almost agree with all my definitions about his arguments, with some minor discrepancies...Another argument is what ythill mentioned about his reading of the game, which is very poor. This includes that his major scumtell is ythill's vote. Also my reaction to his last words, that was obvious as he claimed ythill attacked nobody in the same way, which obviously obviates all my posts against my sweety goebels...(jahudo points out also his case, though i think the intensity of ythill with him is not comparable, but anyway, that could be even more).

2. Respond to contrary opinion by repeating the bad argument.

Since i cant see the bad argument, i cant see where i am repeating.

3. Accuse poster of contrary opinion of repeating himself.

?? here I think either you talking of sirdan or ythill haha I have written dozens of posts...surely you can use many many quotes to defend this point. Im really lost...

4. Accuse poster of contrary opinion of not reading nurien's posts "all along" and of repeating himself

About the reading, this was answered by the ythill issue, about which im yet shocked.
About repeating himself, i answered this in 3. I dont know what you talking about...

[nureins]

Well, in my opinion those were not just minor discrepancies.

Indeed, if you consider your point 4 (sophistication) not an accusation to Goat, as I interpreted, then your accusations were 1,2,3 and 5, which I equally criticized. So better for my point, your case, without 4, was even weaker, then...

So basically, you just summarized that to mislead the people reading your case, while you knew yourself pretty damn well what my case was about?

it seems my greatest enemy along the game, mr goebels (i call you that way ythill only because sirdan insists in forgetting our affair), found my quotation decent. And people is old enough to know how to read. I just ENUMERATE AND LABEL your arguments to simplify the exposition. The arguments are plain clear in my post. I yet do not know where the problem is.

@Jahudo

Point taken that he used this badgering stuff in the past. I now remember reading that, but it honestly wasn't nearly as bad as what he's doing now.

Do you accept the minor affair jahudo-ythill and refuse to talk about mine with mr. goebels? Im really shocked, really...

Since he posted these posts, yes I do think he stopped debating me with an open mind. He is now completely disregarding the possibility that I am town. Look:

Hahahaha. Whatever, scum.

your point is partially correct. Ythill's way is negative in my view, and he may be tunnel visioned. I might too. But what strikes me more is that our arguments were independent enough to satisfy my rational part...

And what strikes me more is that again, when a hard debate was centered on you, simenon made a very out-of-context post...but this time there was some crossed FOS among you two, so Im really confused about you two and what you pretend...

[nureins]

5. A scum tell you did not include is that Goatrevolt lurks at times where it's convenient for him to do so.

The fact that you were very active as scum doesn't mean that you can lurk and look town, it's not simple like that.

Of course your lowered activity doesn't mean you're scum, but it reinforces the other points.

It's a scumtell before Goat responds. It's a scumtell after Goat responds. It's just a corraborating factor after it is questioned reasonably. Sirdan-scum's opinion does not change with the evidence but, rather, it changes with his position in the argument. Another reliable scumtell.

With respect to this "sixth" accusation, as I posted earlier, the most important part is that goat is not a top lurker at all. He as been appearing and disappearing, I guess that is normal, and at some moment he did a case, so he appeared consistently. Of course, Id like him to appear more, but he is just fourth or so in a list of lurkers.

Sirdan just replied back that relativity is not relevant, that he is a lurker anyway and that knowing there r some ppl (3 or so) lurking more, is an advantage for him. As ythill noted, that is clearly confirmation bias by sirdan.

What I finally cant see, on top of that, is the following.

Goatrevolt lurks at times WHERE IT'S CONVENIENT FOR HIM TO DO SO.

with that argument, we all are lurkers, since you can interpret an 8 hours absence as convenient. I would interpret it as sleep maybe...
Ythill is clearly pointing many times that you are not justifying your assertions. Where did goatrevolt lurk ? why was convenient for him to do so? etc...

instead of that, you take someone who is not the top poster and say
he lurks. Since not always, you add, when it is convenient for him. Since 25 per cent of players are more lurker than him you add, oh, then he can hide on that...

That part i fully agree with ythill. You are doing it lot of times...I dont like the way ythill treats ppl but in some aspects his posts are solid.

[nureins]

Tunnelvision and plenty long winded bags of it.

vote Nureins

Ythill is asking for you. Since you think Im tunnelvisioned, you surely know how to criticize my points (and maybe ythill ones) and defend sirdan...

[nureins]

Simenon, Ecto, Citizen and nhat. This makes four which means some are town...

Are ythill and me losing something?

However, Im not gonna be satisfied with unreasoned posts. In my other game Im facing the same situation and almost about to lynch a scum who is playing just posting

- this is town
- this is scum
- tunnelvision
- repeating posts
- i agree

blablabla...

It is very simple to criticize the playstyle, the words and the efforts of players who are writting dozen of posts, just because your style (the one of the four of you, look and read it if you are so obsessed with tunnel vision) is concise and direct...

Now ill read delighted your opinions on sirdan...this will make my decision much more reflected...

[nureins]

Let me point this out to you, because this has been a long time coming. Talking at length doesn't mean you have a good grasp of english.

I agree. Are there doubts about my case on Sirdan?
Simplifying:

- Lurking and no-frustrated autovote (corroborated by his signals of rationality). TPT

- Fake cases (widely discussed about Goat by myself. Ythill has discussed about Simenon). I suggested a reason for these fake cases.

- overreaction to my critique on his cases. Where is the manipulation he suggests? My description of his Goat case is fair and decent.

- Backtracking about Goat case. He tries to say everything was a manipulation or a misunderstanding, that he has not a case, or things like that.

- As a limit situation of the backtracking on Goat, absence of scumhunting after 20 pages of debate (corroborated by his own words, where he claims the major scumtell he has found in the game is about ythill's by-passing comment).

- Poor reading of the whole game (corroborated for his bad claim that Ythill is attacking him in a novel extreme way).

Furthermore, why are you buddying up with Ythill? I'm sure he'll be thrilled about that

Im not buddying up with ythill. Ythill joined the bandwagon.
But he came with new views which are consistent and solid, so I dont think he is buddying up or pursuing a bad lynch as scum. I dont like his attacking way, but surely I prefer his way to reasoned posts in which reasons are not posted (not to call them unreasoned posts).

At least I can take his posts, eliminate the scum-stuff and his aggressive manners, his provocations and tests, etc, and something remains. And what remains is interesting in the case of Sirdan. Nobody has defended sirdan yet with a serious argument. And he has only two votes, im not lynching him and ythill, even if he calls him scum all the time, cannot do it by himself alone.

[nureins]

I almost feel as though I no longer need to respond to nuriens, as Simenon as posted exactly what I feel.

nuriens, I find your posts very difficult to read for some reason.

As far as I remember, this was not at all the reason of your vote...

[nureins]

This game seems to have a lot of one-on-one fights, which seems to be making it hard for us to decide on a lynch.

I agree. But I do not mind either to continue this day. If a sufficient number of people express the desire of approaching views, I would accept it however.

Still, I think it's time we start working towards one. I obviously think Karne is scum, but either nobody agrees with me, or we're all too busy with our private crusades to look at the cases of others.

citizen is high in my scumeter, but the absence of his comments and how he hides of his accusations towards you and me makes me difficult to judge him more seriously. Ive decided to quickly answer your post to give him more "pairing" observations, so giving him the chance to build a case on us.

It is just "one observation" the one I have on citizen, and he has not elaborated. Thus, it is difficult to judge.

If you want my view on who I might lynch, right now is sirdanilot. Then simenon. Undoubtly I wouldnt mind a serious bandwagon on citizen. I no longer would lynch ythill though he is not one of my serious townies. I have a couple of people flying down, but i wouldnt either lynch them probably.

[nureins]

See, Sim? Now he's doing it to you.

A serious question, Ythill. Do you think something else can be extracted from your (our) conversation with Sirdan ? Now I fully understand Cass petition when we played a beautiful dance.

Without any doubt, I do not pretend you to stop your hunt, especially coz sirdan is my top scum. But I also think positions are pretty clear, as you said. Everybody can read you and your critiques on sirdan. Of course, if somebody else thinks your case is a fake, defend yourself and explain your case on sirdan. But right now, I guess there is nothing else you (we) can do.

Let people express their opinions and then lets see what happens. Who are your other suspects, ythill ? And maybe everybody can give 2 or 3 names (Id like the reasons of everybody if they are not pretty clear, but hey, Ill not repeat asking). That way maybe we can try to decide (or wagon) on someone, as we are far away from an agreement...

Suspect count?
Sirdan - Simenon - (Citizen only if a decision is very hard to reach)

[nureins]

A serious question, Ythill. Do you think something else can be extracted from your (our) conversation with Sirdan?

Sorry man, I don't understand what you're asking. Could you rephrase?

Sure, my english is not so bad. The previous post was a quick one.
Do you really think your wagon on sirdan can produce new interesting output?
But you already answered by exposing your suspects...

There is something I didnt understand in your post. First I laughed a lot. Consistent with the image I have of you, you listed 6!! out of 11 players as people you could lynch. So I tried to wonder who your top were, to analyze easily the votes and suspicions of everybody. And I got lost.

Clearly, Sirdan is number 1.

But you mention jah, a group of 3 minor and one "information-townie" lynch, pac. With pac I guess I simply have not played games to understand exactly the purpose of a "informative-townie" lynch, but anyway, I do not want to add noise, so if you think about scum-theory, please abstain to answer me

But about jah, you said:

"... but I'm still wary of him. I'd be okay with a Jah lynch if none of my other choices was viable, but I will not advocate it"

does this mean jah is below your minor suspects?
your only important suspect is therefore sirdan?
or is jah your second suspect (and then choices is choice singular)?

A clarification is welcome...

[nureins]

A serious question, Ythill. Do you think something else can be extracted from your (our) conversation with Sirdan?

Sorry man, I don't understand what you're asking. Could you rephrase?

Sure, my english is not so bad. The previous post was a quick one.
Do you really think your wagon on sirdan can produce new interesting output?
But you already answered by exposing your suspects...

There is something I didnt understand in your post. First I laughed a lot. Consistent with the image I have of you, you listed 6!! out of 11 players as people you could lynch. So I tried to wonder who your top were, to analyze easily the voting and suspicions of everybody. And I got lost.

Clearly, Sirdan is number 1.

But you mention jah, a group of 3 minor and one "information-townie" lynch, pac. With the last of this group I guess I simply have not played games to know what this means. But about jah, you said:

"... but I'm still wary of him. I'd be okay with a Jah lynch if none of my other choices was viable, but I will not advocate it"

does this mean jah is below your minor suspects?
your only important suspect is therefore sirdan?
Jah is your second one and then the minor?

A very short clarification is welcome, because that way I can have an idea of which the 2-3 top suspects of everybody are...

[nureins]

opsss, sorry for the multipost, i did a preview and then both posts appeared haha...
sorry sorry. Answer whichever you wish, ythill

[nureins]

More or less you answered me. I have a clear view of your position with respect to your suspects. With respect to sirdan, hey, I consider him scummy, and I would lynch him, but, what else can we do ? I guess nothing but confusing everybody...

Im pretty convinced that both your attacking style and my writting style do not play in favour of our arguments. Then, if all these scumtells that we already stated are not enough, there is nothing else we can do...lot of people is doubting, let them to decide without your pressure or my "repetition"...

I find pretty funny that some people use NOW your aggressive style. That was pretty obvious from our goebels-scum vis a vis, dont you think? Im sure there is something there to be explored, though probably some info is needed before...

[nureins]

Citizen Karne is obviously my top pick. Right now I'd be willing to compromise on (in no particular order) Sirdan, Pacman (habit) and Ythill. All of these might be scum and their lynches would yield information.

Cass, citizen has been very suspicious to me with his pairing accusation without any justification and how he avoids to answer both Jahudo and you.
he later changed the reasons for suspecting me and only said he "declined" to answer me because he agreed with Simenon post, and avoided discussion.
I know all that. However, Id like to know if you have something else to consider him "top scum", that is a bit excessive to my eyes. Also, which was your view of Matin ?(sorry, I should read it, i know, but a line by you will be simpler and it is connected to my question on citizen)

[nureins]

Jahudo somehow gives me a scum vibe, but I know that if I'd make a case against him it would turn out into nothing. He just gives me a vibe, that's all.

As Im waiting for more people to give opinions and conform a view of who to lynch, Ill not be too much aggressive. How is possible you want to lynch someone, you find him scum but you believe your case would turn out into nothing? please explain me that...

[nureins]

I actually suspect nuriens is town. But his posts are hard to read and he's a struggle to keep up with.

It seems it is hard to read my posts, but you are buying all my arguments. You consider Ythill suspicious for something I first noted so long ago when he attacked me. Now I'm fascinated for how people awake to that attitude so late. And you consider Sirdan suspicious for something I first noted so long ago when he constructed Goat's case. Anyway, I do not want any medal at all, but if you consider me town, I guess it is not only my task to write "better" but yours to read "better" too.


-----

With the expressed opinions of Nureins, Ythill, Cass, Sirdan, Goat and Simenon (sorry Jah, I agree with who posted after you, where are your suspects ?) the following names appeared (by decreasing number of times, and including almost any suspicion).

SIRDAN: 5
YTHILL, JAHUDO: 4
SIMENON, CITIZEN, PACMAN: 3
ANDY, NHAT, NUREINS: 1

Two of the suspicions of jah and pacman were very soft, but I included them for a first evaluation.

[nureins]

Heh, if we're going to lynch people over some kind of consensus-compromise, you should at least used ranked lists. Count 'favorite lynches' double or triple. Sirdan may be on my list, but he isn't number one or two on that list. I'd only hammer him if the alternative was no lynch or someone not on my list.

Taking into account that people used from 3 to 6 players, that their suspicions were vaguely expressed, etc (and I think this is ok not to give too much info to scum), I guess the simplest way is to take a look to numbers and then everybody doing whatever they feel is the more adequate to compromise. For instance, if Id be voting a player who is down in suspicions, Id change my vote to someone I consider scummy but is more suspicious. I guess that when you proposed compromise you were not suggesting a serious assign points - sum points - lynch the one with more points... method. Especially taking into account that mafia could manipulate it..

So I prefer this to be very vague, and we are all old enough to understand if we are compromising and reaching a kind of consensus..probably, when two persons have plenty of votes, a compromise will be easier...

[nureins]

In any case, if you just propose to put 2 or 3 points on current vote (or top scum), this makes:

number of times appearing (top = any)
SIRDAN: 5
YTHILL, JAHUDO: 4
SIMENON, CITIZEN, PACMAN: 3
ANDY, NHAT, NUREINS: 1

---------------

(top = 2 points)
SIRDAN 7
YTHILL, JAHUDO: 5
CITIZEN, PACMAN: 4
SIMENON: 3
ANDY, NHAT, NUREINS: 1

----------------
(top = 3 points)
SIRDAN: 9
YTHILL, JAHUDO: 6
CITIZEN, PACMAN: 5
SIMENON: 3
ANDY, NHAT, NUREINS: 1

As you can see, there are minor changes, but what I commented before remains. Any of us will clearly know what to do when most people express their opinions...

[nureins]

Ill try to be concise. Several posts to comment.
First of all, Ythill is commanding the list of suspicions. All yours...

If he gets his prod I'd like to see his response to Cass's case.

Me too. I find your vote change coherent. Somebody else already moved vote from citizen to sirdan very fast, though I guess these movements have to be studied later.

..which moves me, Jah, Andy, sirdan, & Sim from secondary to honorable mention.

First, Im not sure if this moves you from secondary to honorable, or mantains you at secondary.
Second and more important, you add one point to yourself instead of reducing one point of your total sum. If you consider this "honorable" you should have decreased your number to 12 contrary to what you did.

I guess my third choice is nureins for being a busybody about anything and everything, like "hey, look at me, I'm not trying to lay low," but this choice is out of frustration, really.

I recommend you to meta game me. I like to explore people. And I only play 2 games. Think of the consequences of this combination, as probably most players play more games...

...ythill claimed not to FOS...

Sorry, I have no time to look for the exact quote by sirdan. I have remembered that I wanted to say something but I stopped myself coz of the idea of letting people to defend themselves first. As ythill already did, I want to point out that Sirdan is lieing. Ythill said "very rarely Fos", and this is pretty consistent with the summary sirdan did on Ythill...

I'm noting how quickly nuriens has dropped out of the top 4, to be replaced by pacman. Ecto had a major hand in this, and I'm remembering nuriens odd town read on Ecto from the begining of the day. Nhat also played a part, with horrible reasoning. Interesting...

Nothing surprising. I only had two top suspicions by ectomancer and citizen. And maybe a couple of honorable mentions, some of them as townie...To compromise of me was a bit complicated, so I guess Ecto moved his vote.

Now, with respect to my read on Ecto, I have to modify it. Not with respect to his alignment, as he mantains a very townie read, but about his style. I described him as a Buddhist observing the game but I guess I was wrong. I perceive now that his opinions are driven by very minor circumstances or punctual setences that people state. Kind of "intuitions" to a large extent. Probably Id like him to participate more with this attitude, as Im sure he focus on interesting points (if you remember, I never considered his "attack" on me scummy, and I accepted his point somehow..). I also want to see pacman's reaction. I saw kinda an "habitang" reaction, but this guy is not anymore habitang...

Judging by the placed votes, we're basically at a 4-way tie. Maybe people not so willing to change votes should make brief cases (just a paragraph or two) for their suspect and people willing to change their vote consider them? Or people could volunteer to switch now. Just a thought.

As far as I can see, my only compromising vote would be to vote for citizen. I guess that for many people would be interesting to reduce the 4 people suspicions to a 2 people race in order to decide. I guess Sirdan is one clear candidate. I suggest to propose who is the rival that raises more suspicions and confront them...

In my case, it is Citizen...

[nureins]

True, and thanks for catching my error. I think it's moot at this point though, because I agree with the suggestion that it's time to narrow the list anyway. I am entirely comfortable with the top three choices being sirdan, myself, and Karne... with one qualification: we should not lynch anyone without giving them the chance to claim. That means no hanging Karne until his replacement arrives.

As one of the top suspects, I'm awaiting cases and questions. Though it is Tuesday, so this will probably be my only post until tomorrow evening.

I agree with the first part and we have to restrict the list of 4 (or 3, or whatever is...). I was laughing a bit, because right now, among you four, my suspect list is

sirdan > karne > pacman > ythill

and you are the last in the list..Im really amazed. I have some questions, but probably they are related to your attack on me and right now I have the feeling that it is just part of your playstyle. As far as I can see the 4 persons:

SIRDAN: For some people he is clearly scum. But Ythill took too much protagonism about his attack.

YTHILL: He is mainly considered scummy for his attack.

PACMAN: A combination of Habitang difficult to read stuff and a recent scumtell.

KARNE: His inactivity in defending his points and the cases on him.

I perceive a way to reduce the number of suspects to 2, though i dont want to force the situation at all. Since Sirdan and Ythill are somewhat connected, why dont we "vote" between these two to see if we consider more scummy sirdan or one of his main attackers ?

At the same time, while waiting for karne replacement, we can determine if confronting sirdan/ythill very heavy confrontation with either pacman/karne ...

If you agree, my votes are

SEMIFINAL 1. SIRDAN.
SEMIFINAL 2. KARNE.

[nureins]

Ill try to "interpret" your positions, and then we only need comments by the remaining people. If you accept these "votes", you do not need to comment about it.

SIRDAN VS YTHILL

SIRDAN: Nureins, simenon, jahudo (ythill)
YTHILL: Cass, Goatrevolt, nhat, (sirdan)

From the current 10 players I have no clear read (or I missed it) by pacman and ecto. If pacman and ecto agree on either sirdan or ythill, maybe we can compromise that SIRDAN is scummy or YTHILL is scummy and put one of them in the final...

PACMAN VS KARNE

PACMAN: Simenon, Ecto, nhat, (karne)
KARNE: Cass, Goat, Nureins, Jahudo (pacman)

Uff, Sirdan considers both of them "honorable" mentions, and Im unable to assign his "vote". If he considers karne more suspicious, we could pass him to the final.

If one or both semifinals end up in a draw, go to hell all of you !!

@all: please feel free to send this shit to hell. I cannot know how to reach a decision without creating too much feelings altered.
@pacman, ecto and karne. Can you give a view on the semifinals where I have not a clear view from you ?

[nureins]

Forgot Ythill vote on Karne in semifinal 2 and the summary.

SUMMARY:

SIRDAN 4 - YTHILL 4
If we eliminate votes made by suspects, it is SIRDAN 3 - YTHILL 3.

pacman and ecto to give opinion. And given pacman is a candidate, I suggest to accept Ecto's view on who is top scummy among Sirdan and Ythill and finish the Sirdan/Ythill debate.

PACMAN 4 - KARNE 6.
Whichever Sirdan vote is, karne wins.
If we eliminate votes made by suspects, it is PACMAN 3, KARNE 4 and no remaining votes.


Definitely, my suggestion is to do the following. Karne versus the winner of Ythill and Sirdan. This winner can be determined by Ecto. This also compromises the fact that he is one of the main attackers of pacman.

If someone finds a better way to solve it, ill be delighted to follow. You can do whatever exercise you want with my votes if you respect my ordering as I stated it.

[nureins]

I also suggest the following process to minimize pages (Im compromising here as I would like more information):

1. Ecto decides on Sirdan/Ythill
2. Sirdan or Ythill makes a SINGLE post defending his position.
3. Each player writes at most one post to ask for clarifications. The possible lynch answers as he considers adequate.
4. As the replacement enters the game, he writes a SINGLE post talking about his/her view of the game and his/her scumminess inherited from past.
5. Each player writes at most one post to ask for questions.
6. We finish, hopefully in less than one week this day, by voting among these two persons.

[nureins]

@nuriens: I do not like your "semi-final" thingie at all. There are lots of things I don't like about it, including false dichotomies and narrowing choices so that they are made by fewer players. I think you should probably just abandon it.

You want it or not, Sirdan and you are on top of the suspicions. You want it or not, the reasons can be found mostly in the affair you have had, right ? I totally feel Sirdan is scum but half of the people "favours" him, half of the people "favours" you...I am not narrowing players, just Ecto is not suspect and he has not expressed a clear opinion among you two. Then I feel quite natural to decide on either you and sirdan and confront that person to either karne or pacman.

Furthermore, I find it highly questionable (especially after what I said recently about the possible link between you and Ecto) that you would suggest that Ecto should make a lone final decision about

anything

.

I already told you about that. Ecto's change is pretty natural. I do not know if he considers me top scum, but even if he does, take a look at the opinion of people. I am an honorary mention of a couple of people (some of them considering me townie), Ecto's top scum (which i find understandable due to his concise style of playing) and Karne's top scum (curiously, a suspicion that started because he talked of Cass and Me as a pair, and this provoked lot of suspects over him from Cass and Jahudo and then some others...). Hardly a "compromise" vote, so he moved up in the scale to pacman.

Moreover, as far as I know, you wrote a list of 6 suspects, and neither Ecto nor me were there. And during the last days, if somebody has accepted you as a townie is probably me. I do not see why my proposal is so offensive to you, the division between sirdan and you is pretty clear, and I feel there are some people with lot of doubts about who to lynch. Right now, I have to admit I am quite lost...

Let's just see if we can agree to narrow down the choices. K?

In fact, considering that Karne is going to be replaced, we already have the votes narrowed down to the top 4. Let's keep it that way. And start culling it further.

how ? people is tired, see the amount of posts. I am writting today's post just to answer you, as nobody has posted...I already said anybody is free to propose any solution and implement it if he/she respects my order, Sirdan > karne > pacman > ythill.

[nureins]

Page 2 Summary--- not liking Pope, don't like nurein's jumping in to help him. Liking Ythill and nhat right now, too.

I never helped pope at all. Might you explain what you meant with that ?

- I perceived the L-2 precipitated though found him suspicious and noticed from the very beginning. (I declared openly a couple of times, if you want the quotes I can re-read and copy them for you)
- I perceived the Simenon "tpt is town" unreasoned and suspicious.
- I found tpt autovote suspicious.
- When Cass asked ythill and me to explore other people, tpt was my natural candidate (after simenon, as ythill? perfectly pointed out to me and I explained to him)


After that, I guess all your vision of me is clearly biased because you think I backed from siding with tpt, and so on...

Great work anyway.

[nureins]

This post very quickly served to discredit Matin's concerns about TPT:

I saw it that way before TPT, I also want a bandwagon !!
Now seriously, after all the posts about the topic, I see two things in Matin's words:

1) that he felt Jahudo stole his vote for ectomancer. This part is what Matin used as any other reason he could use to make a "joke" vote on jahudo. And this is the part that Goatrevolt and Jahudo pointed out. I do not find this part very relevant, as I take Matin's way of voting as any joking way.

2) that he "changed" his mind from voting when jahudo stole the vote. I pointed out this question and later TPT insisted. In my view, not a very serious issue, so I just raised a question delicately to Matin in order to see his answer. I agree that he shouldnt be worried about putting a second vote on someone, and that hidding in the forest is not a good help for us...we do not need townies hidding if they are townies...now I want more words from Matin-jahudo-TPT-Goatrevolt-nhat to clarify my mind...

[/quote]

Quite funny your quote to suggest I helped tpt. I asked in random phase a stupid question to matin, post 16. Matin words were post 19 (that several ppl interpreted incorrectly, as later the debate showed, including me). I answered back in post 20 in a very relaxed way. TPT answered in post 25. The post you have copied PRECISELY SAYS THE CONTRARY YOU WANT TO SAY...

Where am i helping tpt ?

I saw in TPT and the subsequent reactions something interesting to analyze and precisely, I asked for more comments. How is this helping tpt ???

I pointed out several times to tpt, later with simenon "tpt is town" and with others, and you suggesting I STARTED DEFENDING TPT ???
About the goebels issue, you see, people is attacking ythill due to his aggressive style. Goebels word was precisely that, saying that he intended to put in the mind of others this word, etc...

I do not consider anymore, since i think it is writting style and not scumtell, so Im not gonna insist in this part of your summary...

So now the games are

Sirdan > ythll by one vote and ecto to give his opinion
karne > pacman by one vote and sirdan to give his opinion (or tied if we exclude suspects). In few words, a real mess...

[nureins]

Here's the problem, even if you are town:

You have once again managed to ask a 'yes/no' type question, but even more you've created a type of false dilemma between pairs of players.

Im really confused here. I really do not see this false dilemma. I am not claiming that EITHER SIRDAN IS SCUM OR YTHILL IS SCUM. I just said that in a natural way, these two players were confronted somehow. The opinions over them are correlated. This is pretty clear in my case. The more I find sirdan scum, the more i find ythill townie, and viceversa. And I really perceive lot of people is having this views. You have plenty of examples around. I am sure that you agree with that idea, at least partially.

This was the only point. I found it very natural. If we have no clear view about the lynch, I feel it would be easier for me to determine if either we consider sirdan or ythill scummy (as i hardly see both of them like that), and then proceed.

I was not claiming at any moment that my way was the best. It was surely a shit. But I also asked people to do whatever they want with my opinions, as you can clearly perceive that we remain in a very non-coordinated voting situation. And nobody has done anything...

Except Ythill, who presented a defense of somebody else in the list of 4. That sounds to me quite townie, and so he remains down in that list of 4...

The matchups were done

after

the vote tally accumulated.

I agree with that. But your vote and some extra votes were left. And I mentioned that any other possibility is ok. Choose pairs, choose a system and if you respect my order, you are welcome to use them. If you have noticed, the four of them are tied all around...look, you want a method, here is a method:

Choose two different persons in the game, not in the group of four. Person 1 invents a way to aggregate the opinions of the 7 players (apart the group of four), giving points to the positions...Person 2 has the power to reject it, if it is not good. Then we eliminate the person among the four candidates with less points. And we try to vote in a normal way among the 3 that survive...As there is much confusion about the 4, maybe taking one out is easier...

And while this is done, replacement of karne is in.

[nureins]

Ok, so here you say that you are not claiming that either one is scum.

This is pretty clear in my case. The more I find sirdan scum, the more i find ythill townie, and viceversa.

Yet here, you set up the teeter-totter board on them. (The higher one goes up, the lower the other goes and vice-versa)

I understand your point better now.

I know that language is delicate, especially when posting. Please notice that my sentence had no intention of creating a dilemma. I truly perceive a harsh fight against ythill and sirdan and I truly believe that this harsh fight has influenced in many senses my views on sirdan and ythill. I had my own case on sirdan, and this case grown clearly with time. Later, the harsh fight influenced me even a bit more, creating a slightly better opinion on ythill and a slightly worse one on sirdan. I also believe other players have been influenced by this harsh fight.

And again I welcome very much any suggestion to break our current situation, which is almost that of a group without any clear option.

Acted as an interrogator into the sirdan vs Ythill discussion.

Ecto, you have here an anecdotical example of what I was describing. ythill occupied all the attention in the sirdan show. I do not mind, he did well at some moments, and it complemented some of my points on sirdan.

@pacman: Just a clarification...I was not an interrogator into nobody else case. I had my own view. I started before ythill did, and my case evolved parallel, and with a sufficient level of independence...

[nureins]

Ill be also delighted to hear opinions about the voting behavior. I give my opinions in parenthesis, but Im afraid they are consistent with my view of ythill as the less scummy in the group of 4.

a) ythill mantains his vote solidly (for me, townie as he thinks his case is partially correct)

b) sirdan mantains his vote solidly (in that sense, this is good for my view of him. He has not tried to jump over other wagons)

c) darox voted for pacman without any reason (in my opinion, scummy, as he has used his vote to push up someone in the suspect list and no reason whatsoever)

d) pacman is not voting (in my opinion, scummy. He is not expressing a clear vote on someone, maybe to use it later if he needs it)

From the rest of people, I do not understand very well why Jahudo was voting for sirdan if he considered karne more suspicious. But I guess this is irrelevant now as darox is a replacement and lot of noise around him

[nureins]

and nureins because I think he is scummy.

I guess that you think I am scummy because you found me scummy, isnt it?
Circular unreasoned arguments are incredibly amazing. It is funny, Ive written so much during the game and so many issues have been pointed out about my behaviour. You could have just chosen one of them and support it heavily...
Read what Kuribo did. Look how fiercely he thinks I am scummy. I laughed a bit with his description, and I mostly think he is biased from the very beginning, but he worked seriously. Your reasons to find scummy someone as Cass and I are funny.


By the way, Cass and I. Cass and I. Cass and I. I just remember it to you. Because your predecessor played with that, gave no reason at all, and when he was asked, he disappeared...now you find both of us scummy. And you give no reasons.

do you also observe scum-pair reasons to find us scum ?
by the contrary, are they independent observations ?
Ill be delighted to hear them, and if you dont mind, both about Cass and Me...

[nureins]

Seriously, you have made yourself become more scummy in my book. I am going to give you a little FoS.

FoS pacman

Sirdan, might you convince me that what I said in post 749, part b is yet correct ? Do not simply repeat your arguments on pacman. I perfectly understand them and I mostly agree with you, so this part is clear. But you will understand that there are many ways to express your suspicions and scumhuntings (if it is so), especially if you are bandwagoned. Maybe is a casuality of fate, but you chose the moment in which pacman and you appear as the ones with more votes to put a FOS on him (and allowing you a further change of vote). And I am not accusing you of changing your vote, I know you have not done, and so on and so forth...

[nureins]

Ah, I've finally found it. What the hell? Where the hell did I jump on a bandwagon? What are you talking about? My FoS on pacman? Oh, come on. I expressed a FoS because he posted something scummy. I can do that whenever the hell I so please.

I find very different:

a) commenting scumtells of other people (with that part I agreed)
b) Fossing. Typically fossing includes to consider someone close to a vote.

Then, I wanted to know if your Fossing was substantially based (other scumtells by pacman, your general perception on him, etc..) or maybe, was a scumtell (you could be building a bridge to vote him soon, unbalancing your confrontation)..so I just inquired you a bit...Im not sure how to interpret your reaction...

[nureins]

It's cute the way nureins is trying to give me more evidence to put against him, but no. I have my reasons for suspecting him, and I don't really feel the need to unload them on the thread unless he moves up the ladder.

Lets try and do one thing at a time people and actually get this game moving somewhere.

is that the way to answer my post ? I formulated some questions to you...

[nureins]

No, I am not basing my scum list on possible scum pairs. That would be a pointless endeavor.

This just answers the first point. I also asked you about reasons to find both of us scum.

[nureins]

I've no idea qwhat the vote count is anymore, but I'm pretty sure no one's at L-1

Far away from L-1 (if i remember well, it is L-3).

The good news I guess is that your voting movement "reduces" the list to 3 since given my understanding of the game, Goat is going to move to Ythill.

For my voting patterns, I could move to pacman if I perceive that Ythill is in risk, (or more likely, as a final movement if it is clear nobody else can be lynched). I perceive him as a noisy signal, and therefore Ill not doubt to do it...

And my second suspect (simenon, for those who dont remember) is totally out of the game, but well, seems he is not a suspect for anyone...

[nureins]

vote Darox

you are a pain in my (our) ass

Jahudo and Cass have discarded Darox because they thought not a consensus vote, and you vote him now haha. Counting jah and cass and pacman's mild fos on darox, this would make him to be in 5 votes...I cant understand all of you, dancing around.

Kuribo is in part correct, some of you are terrible haha. But I have a question for him. Who the hell is the leader ??

[nureins]

Obviously not me, since sirdan isn't swinging.
Er... cross posted. My first statement was in response to nuriens.

I perfectly saw it. Your voting behavior is more than coherent with the view I am getting from you. Then right now I (almost) truly believe you are townie, and I am more than happy to defend you at this stage. If a bandwagon is over you, I not only promise to switch my vote to lynch any other one (pacman or darox) but also promise a significant post to defend you...

[nureins]

@nuriens: I'm touched. Really. What was your purpose in taking such a friendly stance?

I usually answer the posts containing my name. If you direct your words to me and I find your attitude townie, what do you want me to say ? something negative not to appear as buddying ? I dont do such things...buddying is a different thing for me. I was just stating my personal impression over what you commented/inquired me.

And defending you could take me hours, given your playstyle, so I just announced it, and hopefully I dont need to do it haha (this is a joke, but I found it adequate. my serious answer is the first paragraph)

[nureins]

Nureins, assuming someone is town is very bad, even worse than assuming someone is scum. Why would you defend Ythill? Can't he defend himself?

I have not ASSUMED anything. I found Ythill's exercise on Pacman adequate to clarify positions. And if Ythill is seriously bandwagoned, I am going to write a similar defense for him, since I think he is MOST LIKELY townie. I find very natural and clarifying that this can be done precisely by me, the one to whom he directed his first aggressive attack (even if you cannot remember this attack, it has been very funny how you forgot to comment about it and focused on ythill mild attack on jahudo...).

And yes, he can defend also, and I doubt he is seriously bandwagoned, so hopefully I have not to write a long post...

Seriously, stop talking for other players and tell them what they can and can't do.

I just said what I was going to do, not what ppl could or couldnt do.
Precisely, it is you who is telling me what I can do.

[nureins]

The more nureins agrees with Ythill's defense of pacman, the less I agree with it.

I agree with Ythill's way of defending. I am not as enthusiastic about pacman as Ythill. I already stated that from the 4 of them I would only do efforts to save Ythill...and I used Ythill's defence as an example of what I announced (about which Sirdan "instructed" me not to do)...

[nureins]

I also don't like nureins' buddying up:

"Look, I'll defend Ythill even though he suspected me, that totally means I can't possibly be scum!"

No, it means:

"look how ythill method is consistent along the game"
"look how it is precisely me, one who fought with his aggressive style, now understands why is not something scummy, maybe not the best way to scumhunt, but nothing scummy"
"look how sirdan has avoided this debate all the time and tried to defend himself by saying that ythill attack was so dramatic and aggressive and blablabla, and then he was unprotected...(really melodramatic)"

It is nothing related to my scumness, but about my knowledge in his way of scumhunting. The bandwagon on him is mostly based in this aspect...

[nureins]

Oh, and I once lost a game because I assumed Ythill was town. Just so you know.

I havent lost any game because I havent finished any. But I could add, in an imaginary way:

"I once lost a game because I didnt notice how two persons shared a false language".

Please, read my post in response to Sirdan. I havent assumed anything...

[nureins]

I didn't say you're assuming Ythill to be town, I'm more putting it out as a general warning that he comes across as pro-town even when he's scum. He's a good player on both sides of the field.

Oh, you didnt say it. Especially after Sirdan post 791...nice backtrack...
of course, sirdan can also backtrack and say that he was not saying to me that I was assuming ythill to be town. He simply said that assuming things was bad...in a general poetical way, maybe...

yes yes, I am completely sure that you were just sending a message to all humankind about your bad skills as a player, stating that you lost a game because you assumed something, and then it is good for us to know that you assume things which are not truth...

[nureins]

Doesn't make the case I posted against you any less valid.

As I said, it was mistaken from the very beginning, as I never helped TPT/tritch/sirdan.

It's not like I said to myself, "hmmm, nureins might be scum, how can I build a case against him?" On the contrary, your behavior disturbed me as I read through the game.

And I didnt consider your "case" on me scummy at all. Simply wrong.

The point however is that IMO you have clearly backtracked in your support of sirdan with respect to my ASSUMPTION about ythill.

Why did you need to proclaim that assumptions about ythill are bad if nobody assumed nothing ? Why such a need to talk about the quality of ythill if I was not assuming anything but simply stating a fair opinion about him ?

And please, is it your post connected somehow to Sirdan post about assuming Ythill was town ? how ?

[nureins]

You guys were talking about Ythill and assumptions, and I pointed something out based on experience. I didn't say YOU specifically were assuming anything.

SIRDAN tried to attack me by stating I assumed Ythill was town. I rejected such an statement and simply said that I consider ythill most likely town and that I wont mind to defend him if needed.

I clearly interpret your post as a support to Sirdan's words, as you "criticize" the fact of assuming ythill is town...now it seems you just want to make me believe your words were ethereal, very general, and independent of the crossed post between sirdan and I.

My sarcastic post on your way of playing was a funny way of saying that you are backtracking, that you are no longer supporting sirdan's words on ME/YTHILL and that you just posted about ythill to illuminate humankind, without any intention or purpose, only to describe your past games and blabla...

Im not convinced. But Ill not insist in a (minor?) issue at this moment.

[nureins]

Can we just agree to get along and hang sirdan? Thanks.

Not so fast.
We have one week and the sooner we face the tense situation, the better for us. The tense situation is the following.

It seems everybody moves from Darox, and therefore, 3 players remain with many votes. I do not want to eliminate ythill from the race, but if all of you are reading the votes, it is clear to me that sirdan and pacman are concentrating our attention.

As far as I understood the situation, Goat and pacman would vote for sirdan, and nhat and sirdan would vote for pacman.
This would make a 6-6 and we are going to finish day 1 with some tired faces and a very tense situation. Each of us should think a little bit about these ppl...

If we arrive to this weird situation, id like to know how many ppl is convinced that the other deserves a defence as town. In my case, im not convinced that pacman can be defended, so i wouldnt mind to lynch him...

[nureins]

@ecto and nhat: Some pressure over them with enough time for deadline would be appreciated...

@ythill: I really do not see anything particularly good or bad in the last posts, and I read them twice...i neither understand why you ask pacman about his no-vote to sirdan if you find this a townie behavior...

[nureins]

What I meant is that maybe that WANT us to think they're avoiding a wagon. IE, if one were town, and the other scum, maybe the scum knows that the other guy will come up town and he can later say, "But, I wasn't on the bandwagon!"

As far as I understand it, this is what ythill thinks that sirdan is doing by avoiding to vote pacman. I am lost because I thought this was not scummy at all...

In any case, pacman is not voting either, so this argument applies to both of them and then we have to lynch according to previous attitudes...you two are really making things even more complicated with such subtle analysis...

[nureins]

And statements like "you're allowing yourselves to get led by someone like this," "He's manipulating you," and "This is ridiculous." Do you know what that's called? Yep. An appeal to emotion. Because you're expecting people to say, "BY GOD HE'S RIGHT!" and then turn on Ythill.

@kuribo: Sirdan was even more melodramatic before. Remember the ythill vs (Jahudo and nureins) ? Sirdan never talked again about this slip...and I am yet waiting but I am too repetitive

[nureins]

The first part of my post is a minor thing, and it is mostly directed to Ythill.
The second part is important to all and my general thought.

first part

His vote currently has a lack of town support...but he can't really do a natural vote change because he's dug his feet in on me.

Pacman, meanwhile, has been floating around. He had no aggresively pursued target.

I simplified excessively your quotes consciously. My objective is not to show others that you are wrong, but you to read them from another perspective, ok ?

I could read these words very easily as:

- Sirdan is obsessed with you due to your aggressive attack, and if you have not so many votes it is only due to the compromise issue...ppl moved forced by the situation.

- Pacman is not scumhunting and tries to fly down...

For the few lynching situations I have lived, I know it is complicated to accept the fact that you have a "solid case" and part of the town is not considering you seriously...especially because you have worked a lot.

second part
Having said so, I agree with the case, I agree with most of the issues that you launched in your last post, and I also would like some extra pressure on Sirdan. If I understand well, it is Goat and Pacman who could put this extra pressure. I dont see why Sim (he already has answered)...many of us have already exposed that we might change/lynch before the deadline. Let people mantain their prefered votes as much as possible...pacman is not gonna vote himself, so he can vote sirdan. And Goat said some time ago that Sirdan was a minor suspect, while pacman was townish. And his vote is on you and IMO, quite useless right now.

[nureins]

I think both should claim right about now. If you think it would help, certainly I'll switch, but I'm not sure I should right now.

I would prefer only one claiming (at first). Who is that person has to be determined by how suspicious players found Sirdan/pacman. Right now, I guess that Goat and nhat have something to say about that, since all the players voting on sirdan or pacman seem to have solid opinions...

Of course, if someone has doubts on his/her target and wants to change, pressure seems to be adequate now as we are running out of time...

[nureins]

Darox
please read post 716. Please write a similar post for sirdan, we need discussion now.
Thanks.

[nureins]

Sirdan and all the people he replaced are not actually scummy, they are just newb town.

This what you were looking for?

It is not as relevant as Ythill's. Probably I would call it scarce or at most inappropiate given the important decision we are facing...However, I can only call it imaginary, since I cannot find when you said it.
Might you indicate me the post in which you said these words ? I am looking for repeateadly and I am unable to find it. My mistake for sure, but the only thing you said about Sirdan has been:

I can see what people are finding scummy about sirdan

[nureins]

Ready to unvote (I am a total newbie in such a situation and want to hear some voices that I consider townie before taking a important decision).

For all of you to understand my stupid thoughts, I focused on

Now, I'd be absolutely delighted when someone dares to counterclaim, since that gives us Ythill's partner.

First, I interpreted it as a scumtell, building up a defence in case a new claim would happen. But after re-reading it, I also thought of it as an emotional rush, compatible with a newbie reacting to ythill's aggressive style.

Also Id never expect Kuribo to attack so hard to sirdan. So Im really lost. I promise to come with a more serious opinion in a day...

[nureins]

Also Id never expect Kuribo to attack so hard to sirdan. So Im really lost. I promise to come with a more serious opinion in a day...

You call that an attack?

I'll show you an attack tomorrow, scum.

attack ?
Im not attackin you. I didnt consider the person you replaced scummy and I dont consider you either. Your attack on sirdan was strong. And if you attack him so strongly and you are "defending" him before the claim, this suggests to me that his doctor claim was a fake. So in my process of thoughts:

1. I read sirdan's words protecting himself to future claims - scummy
2. I start to accept he has an emotional rush - town (and doc)
3. The attack of someone who defends him hits me in the other direction - scummy...

As a consequence, Im totally lost. This is what i said...

[nureins]

Also, nureins, why the hesitation in the unvote? You're still voting a claimed doctor. For shame.

Mainly because I never faced such a situation. He might be claiming doctor to protect himself...I said "ready to unvote". After hearing some other opinions and especially after seeing none else counterclaims, Ill probably unvote. He is at L-3, do you really think my unvote some hours before or later is gonna affect the result ?

[nureins]

Nureins, you unvote a not counterclaimed power role.

FoS Nureins

Why such a hurry ?

[nureins]

Plenty of scum fake claim doctor in games that don't happen to have doctors.

Just saying.

With 12 players, I was assuming that this game most probably have (at least) one. But I take it. So Ill listen to most people and then if no clear conviction most probably ill unvote.

Kuribo is not gonna be happy probably, as my vote would move to darox...

[nureins]

(I'm putting this statement here more for nureins who hasn't unvoted)

Have you noticed that only 3 ppl have talked after the claim ? Why are you SO SURE that no counter claim will happen ? I am not, so I wait...

About my partner, I thought it was Cass. Ah, Cass also unvoted Pacman, I know your next stupid argument...

I am not gonna unvote when YOU want, but when I consider adequate. I do not like to be manipulated by other players, as I do not know who is town/scum...

[nureins]

And personally, I think if the doctor ISN'T sirdan, and we DO have one, he should keep his mouth shut while the situation sorts out. Agree? Disagree?

haha, really ? so,

1. You think a FOS on me is justified because I didnt IMMEDIATELY unvoted a non counterclaimed doc.

2. You want no counterclaim to appear.

How can be a doc claim counterclaimed if you cheer up the counterclaimer not to counterclaim...I am laughing a lot now...do u want me to believe there is an urgency in your desires to unvote sirdan and suggest no counterclaim to be done ?

Im not understanding you at all, but all this sounds suspicious to me.

I mantain my view. Ill listen opinions and in one day or so if no counterclaim Ill probably unvote and vote darox (and in case a vote is needed to avoid a no-lynch, ill vote pacman)

[nureins]

About my partner, I thought it was Cass. Ah, Cass also unvoted Pacman, I know your next stupid argument...

Where did I say that? Or did you see that in your role PM?

you havent said it. it is the main argument of our friend matin/karne/Darox, to whom cass has voted some time ago and you openly criticized in post 877
For you to remember, most people unvoted matin/Karne/Darox to join sirdan or pacman wagons as a compromise, and it seems they just consider him very suspicious...

[nureins]

What I SAID was that there is no point in you continuing to vote for sirdan, since his lynch at this time will accomplish absolutely nothing for the time being.

You are right in a part. You said that mail was pointless. I interpreted your words "way to repeat my argument against him" as an acceptance of his words...

You are also right in saying that unless we fully believe he is scum, we shouldnt lynch him. But I again tell you to look at my words. I am planning to unvote him unless some counterclaim happens...

Also, you're actively trying to shift focus onto Darox with a deadline three days away: knowing full well that 3 days is hardly any time at all for a brand new bandwagon to pick up.

Id vote simenon (though now he is more or less at darox level), but nonsense. Darox was my third chance, and Ill vote him. Im not trying to shift focus onto anything. I find Darox more suspicious than pacman. Then I vote for darox. If risk of no-lynch, I vote pacman...

I repeat, do not tell me what to vote. My position has been very clear all along the game...

[nureins]

And now, I stop bickering. Come back in day 2 to attack me as much as you want.

[nureins]

After the last 3 posts, I apologize if I introduced noise with my behavior after the claim.

Vote Darox

If you need my vote to lynch pacman, you'll have it.

[nureins]

Are you suggesting I should be trying to find scum teams day one? Or that we will somehow be able to lynch an entire scum team day one?

What you are saying makes no damn sense. Lets focus on finding one scum first, then maybe once we have solid evidence in the form of Mod reveal rather than whims and hunches, we might look for links between people.

I can clarify a couple of points related to me.

Precisely Cass and Jahudo pointed out very openly that your predecessor's only suspicion in her analysis of the game was nureins/cass pair. No scummy attitudes at all, only nureins/cass as a possible pair.

Later when you entered, as Cass has debated openly, you showed no suspicions based on analysis, except pointing out the scumminess of Cass and myself. If you remember well, I asked you if they were independent observations or pair-observations, precisely because it was very curious that you mentioned both of us again as possible scum.

All this comes back to the origins of why I was suspect during parts of the game. It is not what kuribo has mentioned about TPT, because he is completely wrong on saying I defended TPT. It was Ectomancer's observation (that I never criticized because I understood his point very well) that I was "buddying", and Cass was the paradigmatic example, obviously. By the way Ecto, you can just read my first post in newbie game 636, my first game ever in life. Im a total nerd, it is not buddying, it is just admitting I am learning...As far as I understand my posts, I try to make reasoned posts, and indeed I am learning too that they are too frequent and too elaborated (both things combined make a explosive combination).

You avoided to answer many of these questions done by Cass and Jahudo (dont remember if others) by saying, "i agree with simenon about how repetitive is that guy, so Ill feel free not to answer him...". And you used that to forget the topic...

@darox: for me, you are the top scum-lurker in my list. The fact that you avoid all the direct questions made to you and you come back now asking "can you explain me why I am suspect ?" can only reinforce my view of you...

[nureins]

@ecto: Sorry, forgot to mention that I died in newbie 636 one hour ago, and now you can see what I was there, and how I played there, which is essentially very similar to how Im playing here...(which says nothing good about my learning skills )

[nureins]

- Nuriens waiting for counterclaim is somewhat disturbing.

Not to play the newbie card, please read my 3 words in the "waiting post". I was ready to unvote, some opinions of people, people not counterclaiming, etc, were useful for me to understand better the "im a doc situation".

Playing the newbie card, if you want to analyze my newbie 636 game (it is a shit to meta-someone with only one game, but I cannot offer anything else), before I died one hour ago, we lynched a scum claiming to be a doc...obviously, it was a very different situation to here, and all caveats apply and blabla...

Therefore, in this game I just needed opinions and people appearing and confirming me the claim was not fake, or was relevant enough to be considered...

For the noise I could have introduced, I apologized...

[nureins]

Not a good excuse for scummy behavior.

It was not a excuse. It was an explanation for Ecto that I saved until the moment in which it was verifiable. Now he can go to this game, see my behavior there and compare it with what he called "buddying"...

To Ythill's "case" on me, I answered many times.

You did a pbpa analysis, if you want to come with a case on me, please come...IMO, your case is flawed by reference dependence bias. The view that you conformed in the beginning of the game was very wrong and IMO, it contaminated your reading on me. But you are welcome to come back with your main points on me to discuss. You can avoid a post in which you add "ill do, scum", or you insert an icon, as we have been asked not to bicker around...so please postpone it and come with it...

[nureins]

It's also shit to meta someone who is acutely aware of their meta enough to use it to try and excuse bad behavior.

"Of course, I look scummy, I always look scummy!" This carries no weight, because sometimes the person saying it is just scum.

This is a generalization.
I used meta to make precisions over two points.

1. "buddying". Ecto can read my first post in the game and conform a more valuable view of myself.

2. fake-claims. Cass can see how my last lynch was that of a fake-doc-claimer and understand better why I was careful.

Just that. Im not saying anything about how much scummy i look or not and Im not escaping any wagon, as there is none over me...

I addressed all the questions formulated over me. The fact that this newbie game ended up for me 1 hour ago allowed me to give a couple of precise examples of two moments of my play that, given how I see the reactions, seem quite crucial for experienced players...

[nureins]

I think that the fact that the pacman bandwagon (and maybe even the sirdan bandwagon) stalled for so long is more indicative of his alignment than almost anything else.

You guys are willing to pile votes onto Darox, but not onto pacman? Pacman who's been acting scummy constantly? Sheesh.

The first sentence sounds extremely WIFOM.
To the second thing, maybe a good thing of such a long game is that we have information.

- Goatrevolt always considered pacman townie, so basically he considers darox more suspicious clearly.
- For Cass, citizen karne/darox was top scum, so basically again she considers more suspicious to darox.
- Ecto also considered karne highly suspicious, and though his mind is a bit hidden to me, this is a clear signal.
- Darox is a compromise lynch for me, as it would be pacman, though I consider Darox more suspicious.
- pacman cannot vote himself unless he is inheriting the stupid behavior of habit
- nhat is probably on a compromise scenario, as he was voting pacman too.

And by the way,
Ythill considered darox more suspicious than pacman
Jahudo considered karne/darox top suspicious...

I still mantain my offer to vote pacman if needed for a lynch, because I perfectly know that this lynch is complicated. I already said that among the group of 4 "candidates" my only townie read to my surprise was ythill...Im also waiting for his new read on darox...

[nureins]

You did a pbpa analysis, if you want to come with a case on me, please come...IMO, your case is flawed by reference dependence bias. The view that you conformed in the beginning of the game was very wrong and IMO, it contaminated your reading on me. But you are welcome to come back with your main points on me to discuss. You can avoid a post in which you add "ill do, scum", or you insert an icon, as we have been asked not to bicker around...so please postpone it and come with it...

No, I formed that opinion through rereading the game, I didn't start off the reread saying, "nureins is scum."[/quote]

I havent said you started off like that. I said you got this first impression from a "defence of tpt" that I modified later. And I said to you that this first impression is totally wrong, and that your later analysis is biased by this first reference-impression.

But since YOU are the one pointing out YOUR OWN META, I am free to disregard it as manipulation if I so choose. (PS, I do)

My "own meta" as you call it, were two minor precissions directed to two particular persons, not a defence on myself of any kind...
You of course are free to catalogue it as you want. But you will continue biased by doing so...

[nureins]

sorry for the bad quoting style
In the previous post, read:

nureins wrote: You did...
Kuribo wrote: No, I formed...

[nureins]

I tried to forget everything I've said about the two candidates and read from a fresh perspective. It's very long, sorry.

It was a good job. And it is going to help many people for day 2, whatever happens. Therefore, no apologies needed. Thanks.

Now, of course, I have some discrepancies with issues related to my own. I will try to discuss only the major ones to avoid more shit (of which Im in part responsible). Let me simplify the descriptions of things I consider relevant. Feel free of...well you know...

Matin vs. habit

:
1. nureins pursues matin --> Why pacman FoS Jah but not nuriens?

I have first to say that I didnt pursue matin. Pursue is a heavy thing when I just provoked discussion...(someone already pointed out this before, goat? dont remember)...I started by saying that I wouldnt even ask for something so stupid in a more advanced stage of the game...

But you are right, pacman didnt fos me. And then made what you described as flip flop and so on... this connects and explains the second point I want to mention...

2. nuriens asks pacman some hard questions (distancing?).

I felt strange things in habit's initial behavior and all these feelings were compatible with Cass past experience and her reactions over him, as if she was afraid of him ruining the town again...This made me think of Cass as town, Habit as someone to analyze in detail...

I asked some things, looked at other people asking...and found myself in a very strange position as habit was very difficult to read. I read him as a bad player as probably most people here, and then the game evolved as you describe it...

[nureins]

I guess that means I'll be the lynch for tomorrow?

It seems to me that Darox also convinced you of his scumness...we, the retarded open you the doors of our house.

But we are in day 2. If you want to start with your cases, you are welcome.
And I suppose you will enjoy with me for some time (given your attitude, for the whole of day 2 i guess). Anyway, while I re-consider the situation and formulate my own questions, I can enjoy your majesty of the perfect scumhunting..

[nureins]

Then why wasn't I voting him? In fact, if I recall correctly, as recently as ONE FREAKING PAGE AGO, I was being derided because I refused to lynch Darox over pacman. And you call that convincing me of his scumminess?

Do you treat me as stupid ? I perfectly know your position in Day 1. My comment was about your last post answering last Darox post. I guess you thought there that he was scum. And if you werent so obsessed, you would realize that 7 (8 with jah) had this view, and that Darox won it working hard to appear like that...

I didnt wait any other thing from you that a quick vote on me. Now maybe you want to convince other people and formulate some questions.

When did you want me to vote for him ? my list was very open and justified Sirdan - darox - pacman - ythill. If you want to insist about my hesitation after Sirdan's claim, Ill be delighted too. But indeed, as far as I remember only Cass has voted for Darox when I announced my vote...

I also predicted in my post your dislike for this vote change. So I must be a genius too...does this mean I am always right ? I guess no...

You both waited for Ectomancer to jump in

That fairly gives me an idea of how seriously you read posts (or at least mines). Ectomancer voted after I announced my Darox vote...maybe you only read things in black...

POST 894
ecto's vote POST 901.

Now of course you can say also that Im suspicious because I provoked ecto's vote and so on...

So essentially I announced my vote at L-5 (and voted at L-4, but maybe you wanted me to say "hey, ecto has voted darox, this has completely changed the situation as to vote for a less scummy !!!" Now read the game as you want. It is clear to me how biased you are...

That you behave as a sheriff and announce to Cass how awful is her fos on you is to me another good example...

[nureins]

Some questions I had written on a first lecture:

- Darox was top scum for among others Cass and Jah during a phase of the game. When Sirdan was not anymore a candidate to be lynched, some attention came back to Darox.

@Jahudo: Why is the case that Darox was your top scum before and you stayed out of the voting group ?

- Ythill repeated a couple of times that Kuribo was town. Please explain me which scenario you had in mind for repeating it so much, as I only thought of two of them...

@ythill: darox revealed scum and people attacking kuribo ? or darox revealed town and people suspecting of you due to your active participation ? Because I didnt perceive too much suspicions on Kuribo apart a couple of Fosses...

More after some extra reading...

[nureins]

My final post to Darox was pointing out that if he's being lynched for being aggressive, that means I may be next.

Maybe you have to decide WHY WE LYNCHED DAROX FOR. Otherwise, it is going to be complicated to discuss. I thought that according to your view, we the retarded town lynched him for being lurker. Now it seems that it was for being aggressive...

I dont accept any of the two, but if I have to choose among them, lurker is much closer to reality than aggressive. Darox was not aggressive ever....

Now the rest of your post is quite illustrative.
I asked you about why you were worried being the next one. IMO, you thought that the last Darox post was scummish and maybe thought that we would look at you for a heavy defence. Hey, you can defend a person and even perceive he played badly. You are human, not a superhero of truth, though Im starting to doubt...

But now is funny, because you have starting to justify and discuss about:

- asking darox for an opinion on me
- discussing the NK
- discussing the powerroles we have...

among many other things. I have no idea why you are doing so...

[nureins]

Okay, I'm going to say this one more time.

STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

I DID NOT THINK DAROX WAS SCUMMY.

havent you seen the IMO in my post ?
I havent said you SAID darox to be scum.
This was my interpretation of your last post. Why do you offend like that if I stated very clearly that this was my view ??

If this is not the case, then maybe you can explain me better why you had fears to be the next if you were so convinced of him being townie even at the final moment..I cannot understand your argument about aggressivity...especially because:

- Darox was not very aggressive
- you were more and people didnt vote you or attack you almost
- Ythill was the most aggressive player and though he was in the leading group, not more than 3/4 players convinced of his scumness...

So please, explain me about that feeling of you, coz im really unable to understand it...

[nureins]

My statement was a direct response to the fact that he said he was being lynched because he was a "mean person."

*I* am a mean person.

Then simply say is a joke and stop bickering for fun. I dont bicker for fun, even if i know I have a tendency to speak a lot...

But in post 972 you said:

My final post to Darox was pointing out that if he's being lynched for being aggressive, that means I may be next.

You can easily understand why Im totally lost with your attitude and words...

I don't think you honestly believe I was calling Darox out as scummy, I think it's just more of your games that you're using to try and mislead the town.

I noted your answer to kuribo only as a response to your egocentric claim on your right guess. It was a minor comment to slow you down in your irrational arguments. I didnt use it to accuse you of anything, so explain me how Im misleading the town. It is pretty obvious that 8 persons were perceiving darox as scum. Maybe there r 8 mafia around...good luck with such a crowd of bad guys...

[nureins]

You're misleading the town by trying to mischaracterize the arguments against you.

My first post was for you to come with a case against me. You consider a case is based on how loudly you say things. But this is useless for town. Go and explore my scumminess...but do it seriously. Ill answer every word you have to say, dont worry...

now i apologize as Im bickering again. But this guy is just loudly claiming his superiority over all of us, and I do not like this attitude (both in personal terms but also coz this is bad for town). Last post answering kuribo until he comes with a case to me.

Im collecting the list of questions I have. Ill write them down tomorrow or monday at most.

[nureins]

notice how nuriens drops the "nice but determined townie" attitude for a pure nasty one.

may you clarify this for me ? I dont understand what you mean

[nureins]

after 3 people changed their votes within a short time span, he decides to flip to darox, and he says he'll vote pacman when people tell him to. why doesn't he vote where his suspicions lie?

FALSE. ALL THE ARGUMENTS.

1. I announced my vote to Darox before Ecto and Pacman voted.

2. I announced my scum list repeatedly, before your claim.

3. I said Id vote (lynch) pacman if there was some risk of no-lynch, also before your claim. And later again.

4. My suspicions lied on you. Then on simenon. Then on Darox.

-----

Then all your arguments in the same sentence are FALSE. And not vaguely false, but TOTALLY FALSE.

Please answer this post and comment each of my 4 points.

[nureins]

Assuming I’m town, I think...


At other times in the game he’s quoted nureins and admits he doesn’t know who the quote belongs to, he defends nureins' posts by saying he doesn’t find any scum-tells while at the same time he says that nureins is hard to read and his posts are too long.


Fast forward to the deadline nureins says nurmerous times that he will vote pacman over a no-lynch. I don’t think this is a hole in the argument though, but we can only speculate the various possibilities.

1) I dont like this assumption, at least in the way you use it.

2) Count the number of posts. Im the person with most mosts. And according to the common view, hard to read. This has also happened me in the only game I finished (though this is not meta-info, I know is a shit 1 game to do meta). It is just a truth that I write long shit posts, I dont think this is very debatable.

3) People got nervous at the end with deadlines and stuff alike. I was moving from my top suspect to a more compromise one. I would have done an analysis to defend seriously Ythill but not pacman. And Id have lynched pacman without hesitation if needed to avoid a no-lynch. Clarifying these points is useful for people taking decisions.

---

I found this post especially relevant. I dont want to make any Omgus reaction, so I also ask people to pay attention. Because to me, it sounded like:

"Let me jump into the wagon before a significant number of people does, so I can later simulate not to be suspicious".

- You are voting me just for a supposed connection to pacman that you never mentioned before
- I have many other interpretations for your affair with pacman, among them, distancing...
- My vote to darox/ announce to pacman is quite solid and rooted in the game. Also, quite natural.
- On the contrary, it is precisely your announce to darox / no vote to darox which is very suspicious, as darox was your top suspect. TOP SUSPECT. You only moved from him when you were compromising. But as soon as you perceived that pacman's wagon could decline, you unvoted and remained like that. Never came back to your suspect number one.

I analyzed deeply this adventure...Ill be back with the info asap. Meanwhile Im sure lot of people will take a look to your move (and obviously to mine, i dont mind at all)

[nureins]

FALSE. ALL THE ARGUMENTS.

1. I announced my vote to Darox before Ecto and Pacman voted.

2. I announced my scum list repeatedly, before your claim.

3. I said Id vote (lynch) pacman if there was some risk of no-lynch, also before your claim. And later again.

4. My suspicions lied on you. Then on simenon. Then on Darox.

-----

Then all your arguments in the same sentence are FALSE. And not vaguely false, but TOTALLY FALSE.

Please answer this post and comment each of my 4 points.

Nureins, I am more than willing to discuss this with you, since I think this is very important. However, you did not provide evidence (in the form of quotes) for 1, 2 and 3. A couple of quotes would do a lot to clarify this for me, so I can properly write a response. I decided not to dig through the thread to find evidence for your defense. If you are going to defend yourself, present some quotes to back it up.

1. Post 883. I announce my vote-movement to Darox.

Kuribo is not gonna be happy probably, as my vote would move to darox...

Another reference in Post 898 (read the quote later in response to 2). Prior again to Ecto's vote. So I said it TWICE before Ecto voted.

Ecto votes in post 901. Pacman, nhat and Ythill later. I announced my Darox vote at L-5. No other of this group of four people announced a vote for Darox prior to 883, if you are wondering.

2. There are many of these. Especially when Darox was replacing Karne and there was a mess of votes in between 4 people (Sirdan, Ythill, Pacman and karne/darox). Here it goes one, but there are many others. My top scummies were Sirdan > Simenon > Darox, and among the 4 with most votes, the orther was Sirdan > darox > pacman > ythill, with Ythill largely below the other 3.

I was laughing a bit, because right now, among you four, my suspect list is

sirdan > karne > pacman > ythill

and you are the last in the list..Im really amazed.

The post was directed to Ythill, since among the four, I considered Ythill the only townie with large probability as to defend him fiercely.

Another one, before Ecto voted for Darox is in post 898. This connects to such previous ranking, as you can easily see.

Id vote simenon (though now he is more or less at darox level), but nonsense. Darox was my third chance, and Ill vote him. Im not trying to shift focus onto anything. I find Darox more suspicious than pacman. Then I vote for darox. If risk of no-lynch, I vote pacman...

And this quote is also another example for 1, as I mentioned.

3. BEFORE YOUR CLAIM:
Post 818

If we arrive to this weird situation, id like to know how many ppl is convinced that the other deserves a defence as town. In my case, im not convinced that pacman can be defended, so i wouldnt mind to lynch him...

The weird situation was a 6-6 tie situation between you and pacman, that was likely to occur giving the opposed view...

AFTER YOUR CLAIM:
read above post 898 (and there is another one, post 894)

4. You dont ask me for quotes to defend 4, but you can see some of them with Karne and also the one I cited in 898.

----

Then, your claim is TOTALLY FALSE.

Your argument of me voting for Darox at L-2 is "poor", as it lies in a real vote but not in my announcement, that came at L-5. If your argument is that L-2 votes and around in the current situation are suspicious, maybe people who voted after my announcement was influenced for my announcement, dont you think ? They knew I would vote for Darox soon, so they had my vote in mind. They are the "L-2" voters, not me. I announced my vote twice, only the BOLDFACE was lacking.

Also, your argument that I voted for someone I considered less suspicious is totally false, as I showed to you. All your "case" falls down.

Also, my "pacman-vote" compromise was a vote in case a no-lynch was faced. This situation never happened, so I never was in the situation to cast my vote for Pacman. Summing up, I came from Sirdan to Darox, going down in my scumlist (avoiding simenon, as that vote was nonsense, and the probability of a simenon lynching was almost zero, if not zero).

Then all your arguments are flawed. Completely. Not partially, but from A to Z. If this was not a game with experienced players that seem to suggest your claim is 90 per cent true or above, I would be really suspicious of you now with such poor arguments trying to join easily a wagon around me. After reading my quotes, go back to your argument and re-think it.

[nureins]

@nuriens: Sirdan's crap-logic is to be expected, especially when he in analyzing a player as swingy as yourself. What I really want is for you to answer my comments.

Your comments are subtle, but fuzzy. You know it perfectly. However, let me discuss some ideas.

I originally suspected him for some pretty serious tells. After I attacked him, he changed his behavior a bit which supported the theory that his bad play was due to inexperience, but it also could have been scum cleaning up his act.

From our first debate, I yet mantain my opinion that you were not correct.
However, I dont think anymore that you analyzed me voluntarily in a wrong way, as at the beginning. You are not my little Goebels anymore.
During this time Ive seen you attacking other people, and Ive seen the reactions to my writting style in my first mafia-game (and post game analysis). Basically, I now think:

1. My writting style is probably explosive. My english is regular and latin-based. I write a lot as I think the more information is revealed the better for town. All these things make my posts terrible to read and probably I have a lot to improve. Indeed at some point I thought, "hey, when you have your first game as mafia you can try to shorten your posts, the length, etc, so as to arrive to a better balance".

2. People do not read completely my posts. I am starting to think that people basically skim my posts and get basic messages which are hardly the ones I wanted to transmit. Lot of examples during the game.

3. I have nothing to clean up, and you can come back to any of your arguments.

4. My inexperience is a fact. I have written more than 200 posts probably, but I do not like to use it as an argument generally. It does not apply to behavioral scumtells. Ectomancer was probably the first one pointing out my buddying. And I never considered him scummish for that. I understood his point. But IMO, it is highly influenced by inflation and my talking style. I can behave funny and buddy even with enemies in a harsh fight (I make use of too many metaphorical aspects that I should eliminate in a written forum, as I know my messages hardly arrive in the way I want to transmit them). This does not mean I forget the scumtells of people, or I try to appear as nicer to hide anything. People hate me due to my style generally, as you can see from the game. In the POST-GAME analysis of my first mafia game, some people voted for me, ironically saying they would have liked me to stop talking, even if they thought I was townie.

My inexperience applies mostly to "tactics". Reading certain probabilities of people being scum, reading claims or fake claims, reading night actions, etc. Some of the roles you describe...I have to check at wiki for them. But not for doing things that could be scummy. Im townie, i behave townie, and i go for scumhunting the way Im learning to do.

There were some late-day actions from nuriens that piqued my suspicions again, like where he started buddying to me. Kuribo's reread also seemed valid.

I debated with you dozens of points in which I didnt agree. I accepted plenty of them. I used our little affair to debate sirdan as he tried to appear melodramatic with your attack on him.

Obviously, remembering Goebels-love-affair and feeling jealous because you paid attention to sirdan was hard (that is a joke obviously, you can call it buddying. In my opinion, it is not. I separate facts and scumtells from these relaxed moments in posts. I wrote thousands of words so obviously you can find things like these. Plenty. But in serious business, I didnt accept your points and I debated plenty of them.

Kuribo's reread is very reference-dependent. I have read it again a little bit. Go and read his case. He wanted to lynch me already after the first pages. His main arguments there were my initial "TPT protection" and later modification. And this was totally false, as I argued. Totally false. I never protected TPT, I just was not speedy on him, as some people was at the beginning. You can go and see it. Indeed, for pointing out some things around the TPT case, and having my own opinion and scumhunting around, I received some attacks that I considered quite scummish. They influenced my initial list of possible scummies a lot.

Now that habit/pacman has flipped scum, nuriens is implicated worse than anyone. I don't think there's a clearer lynch candidate at this juncture, though further rereads may change my mind.

I cannot see where I am implicated at all. I asked couple of harsh things to habit as you pointed out. Then my view on him was basically shared by most people, including some of those I firmly thought townies (you can check it easily). Then he went on "bad player" category. My case was on sirdan basically, and I shared with you the initiative on him. Once this was not a possibility, I moved to my next candidate with probabilities to be lynched, darox. I would have voted for pacman if needed. And I would have fought to save you if needed. No more candidates around.

My secondary suspects, in no particular order, are Ecto, Goat, and sirdan. Evidence links Ecto to both nuriens and habit/pacman but the former is linked through nuriens' own buddying, which gives me pause. Goat is only implicated if nuriens flips scum. Sirdan is linked to pacman worse than the other two, but I am of the opinion that we should let him live at least one more day.

My suspects on Ecto and Goat are minor. And they are only a consequence of the lynch. Goat had the advantage of not playing at the moment of the lynch, and this could make us to forget him, but I havent had scum reads from him. I saw new-darox read on Ecto and I have some comments about him, but basically I see Ecto townie. The only curious thing to my mind is how he has been hidden in the voters list by voting after my two announcements of vote. I do not see any connections from Ecto and Goat to me. Ecto was the one pointing out buddying, which is probably the most serious behavioral scumtell on my side (even I think it is not hard to explain) so hardly I see this connection.

About Sirdan, well, my inexperience plays against me here. That is a tactical thing. So my opinion is hardly valid on that. If you think giving him another night is good, ok. I do not understand the situation at all. Lot of people were explicit about how counterclaiming was bad. I cannot understand this at all, but given lot of people said it, I suppose it is correct. I had a very positive feeling from Cass, who understood how unfair was to ask me to unvote sirdan so quickly arguing that he was a not counterclaimed doc while at the same time defending the position that counterclaiming was bad....I am lost about all these things.

I fully understand Kuribo's vote on me. I somehow understand your vote on me. I do not understand Jah's vote on me (his case is a shit too). I do not understand sirdan's pressure on me.

Fixed tags -Mod

[nureins]

Sorry for the awful quotes !

[nureins]

If I have time, I'll post my case now, as I almost re-read everything. You can ask me for quotes, but it seems to be Im going to be busy answering back questions, so use my case as you prefer and at the moment you prefer.

1. Jahudo and Habitang fossed each other, fought a little bit about shit.
Among the many examples:

a. They played each other about the existence of certain power roles (mason-fishing...) (before post 100)

b. Habit misquoted habit and Jah reacted with his Fos. Post 104

FoS: habitang
Are you trying to put words in my mouth?

c. Jah "forgives" habit, accepts his attack partially but doesnt unfos him.
[quote"jah"]
@habitang
If you misquoted me on accident then that’s okay. The quote in question about TPT’s self-vote was similar to something I said earlier, but I wasn’t sure whether you were more interested in my responses or my reaction to a spotlight. As far as mason-fishing I didn’t know it came out like that. I wasn’t even familiar with the term and strategy since I’ve only played newbie games so far.
[/quote]

2. Basically, they help the other one to build an image of newbie. And they go on in an increasing level of cross-posting, but irrelevant. They always flied down. None of them took a serious position in the Ythill vs Nureins affair. This applies to the whole of the game, in my sense. (I pointed out to ythill something like that related to habit, if I remember well). This is important, as Ythill and myself are the two most active players IMO. They prefered to enter minor debates always.

3. Post 225, habit directly asks jah about it. They mantain their fight but not fly game:

@Jahudo: you are like doign teh same thing I accused you fo throughout this game. Of focusing on the irrelevant stuff so much and generatign discussion out of nothing. I said I cleared you because it seemed like scum would not keep doign it especially after being pulled up on it, but now you continuously do it as if to prove me right in clearing your name. It's WIFOM stuff but I woudl liek a better read of you. What do you make of it all? I mean of Ythill, Nureins, lurkers or whatever else you think is important?

4. Buth both of them choose not to attack any of us. They even defend us with some minor points all along the game. This is another of the reasons for which Kuribo can have his view on me. Habit and Jahudo were continuously pleasing partially Ythill and me. Habit and Jahudo discussed among them about who was the pleaser and who was the mild attacker.
But never and none took a position in our goebels affair.

5. Post 261 ends up a declining phase by habit. He suggests the no-lynch issue. He has done a couple of stupid posts that some people quickly interpreted as excessively emotional. Finally, in post 263, Jah decides to talk on ythill and me. He makes a very long post debating this topic. He is forced to take a position obviously, and he buys ythill but only slightly. IMO, a distracting post trying to focus conversation on the most inflamatory debate besides the habit issue, that is, Ythill-me.

6. POST 265. Jah comments on habit no-lynch as follows:

What do you know about this setup? I'm not accusing as much as asking for clarification because you make it sound like 8:2 is our best scenario of any role distribution.

Also I say a no-lynch day causes us to learn far less than say investigating multiple people and deciding on a lynch. With a lynch we have supporters and dissenters and their alignment adds to the conversation in the next day.

Sounds to me as a very strange comment to a no-lynch proposal. Maybe he was afraid of ppl attacking habit as they did for the no-lynch ? so they debated as if this would be part of their previous love-hate minor importance affair...In post 268 and 269, habit answers the same way to jahudo. More newbie mutual feed up ?

7. Post 281. Habit votes jah. They continue playing out of the radar. Indeed, he is ready to change the vote. In 289 he says, my vote stands until scum does something completely stupid. In 294, goes for relax...
he is becoming emotional and fake, apart from the no-lynch and roles. But jahudo was the main actor in all that, and he doesnt react at all.


Then

305 (nhat fosses habit for some of these things)
306 super fake reaction by habit
307 nhat votes
308 simenon votes
309 andy votes
310 cass fosses
311 Jah votes

But read to his post.

Now it's much better to get everything out in the open and try to fix yourself up. Be honest and clearly outline your opinions of me and the rest. Maybe outline like nureins and Ythill did if you think I've been overlooked. I have nothing to hide, do you?

Sounds quite coaching to me. And making a parallel of ythill-nur and jah-habit maybe...

Then some people (goat and ythill) probably perceive the wagon is quick and simply go for a reflection. And both of them stop talking until post 346.

8. Read post 346 and post 347. They come back. Habit post 346 aknowledges Cass for help and mantains soft suspicions on jah. In 347, jah says

your previous post made me think more about how Cass and others see you as erratic. More than anything I wanted to see you confirm or disprove this posting trait because it will help identify you as perhaps an erratic townie, attempting that fake emotional explosion, or maybe its something else at the heart of your previous post. That's really what I'm trying to see.
I did not think habit's previous post was rational and I considered that fact that it wasn't genuine because then and now you are not on the threshold of being lynched, so why act like you are? But not that you are on the threshold of being on the threshold, maybe the next actions you take will tell us more about you.

9. Post 354. habit ends up jahudo's affair.

My opinion of you, hmm… well Goat outlined an interesting case against you, I think his evidence is arbitrary but evidence on Day 1 is generally quite hard to come by. I’m very glad he simply read your posts. I definitely agree with his conclusion though about your lack of conviction. You have voted for me with conviction, and I am still curious to where that conviction comes from outside of my raving post.

This together with lot of newbie-mutual-cards among them.

10. Habit goes for low fly (andy) and jahudo makes another long post discussing with ythill and goat (habit defenders) and finally, as a good learning newbie, unvotes. Some people have noted his coaching.

-----

More to come in a second chapter about final stage of Day 1. (I already commented how interesting is the fact that Jahudo avoided to vote Darox, who was his TOP SCUM)

[nureins]

Kuribo, if my order of lynch was clear (as I showed to sirdan), my voting movement behavior clear (as I showed to sirdan), and my announcement to move clear and repeated (as I showed to sirdan), what is left ?

Formulate the question in a clear way, as then Ill be able to answer in a clear way. Sirdan seems to be satisfied with my clear answer...because I dont want to interpret. I try to interpret, probably is about the fact that I didnt unvote sirdan quickly and moved. But hey, you can see that in Newbie 636 days before sirdan's claim I (and I say I because it was me essentially) lynched a claimed doc. I was just waiting for some opinions, time passing and so on. But my first 3 words in the post were READY TO UNVOTE. An experienced scum would have just done UNVOTE with no further comment, and you would be unable to follow his behavior.

You can clearly follow my behavior with my posts. And it seems that sirdan "misinterpreted" me or just skimmed my posts. As I commented to Ythill, I find this natural, as I do write a shit of long posts and so on. He has decently admitted, just by saying OKay, with no signal of fake regret for his attitude. For me it is a very townie read, one of the few I have had from him...

[nureins]

No matter how many times you point to previous games and say "Look, I'm an idiot everywhere," it doesn't change the fact that your behavior is scummy.

As my post to Ythill describes, at no moment whatsoever I have used inexperience or idiotic play as an excuse for my scumhunting or voting patterns. All my behavior tends to be reasoned and based on my beliefs of which the signals of scumminess are. Go and look for it.

If you dont like my answer to Sirdan, please clarify your extra questions and I will answer them accordingly. IMO, you are totally biased, and the fact that you were correct on guessing the scumminess of one person has only provoked a negative effect on you. As Ecto pointed out, you have excited the part of you that adoctrinates the rest of players and you go on claiming and claiming without discussing real facts.

[nureins]

second part.

POST 411. Jahudo makes a pbpa analysis of habit.
POST 413. I mostly read it as, habit is inexperienced.
POST 419. After a pbpa analysis of half a page, Jahudo easily moves his mind.

Now, I’ve felt that these are not great scum tells if you still think Habit is less experienced at the slow flow of these games and his impatience is the cause of these problems.

Indeed, Jah now thinks habit is townie and suggests a scum wagon-leading

I feel that some people saw only habit’s post 306 and ignored what he was doing up until that point. 306 was an obvious reason to vote, and any scum would have been happy to see habit write it. So I don’t think it is out of the question that scum can give momentum to a post like 306 even in the first 2 votes.

In my opinion, a very sudden change of opinion, given that Jahudo did a PBPA analysis to which he dedicated (supposedly) lot of reflection.

Post 424. Habit answers back to jah again with bit of "stick and carrot" attitude they have been playing all the game.

Post 457. Jahudo defends seriously his habit-inexperienced new position.

And habit dissapears. More on Pacman-jah coming.

Post 514. Pacman asks about reasons to vote habit.
Post 515. jah points out what habit said, and DRIVES PACMAN TO ANSWER ABOUT THE WAY IN WHICH HABIT SAID. Underline is Jahudo's...

Habitang's post 306 (page 13) is very defensive and he arguably wasn't under that much pressure. It brought attention to the ways he has played the game and argued for other things. I'm curious, what do you think habitang was trying to say in post 306? What do you think of the

way

he wrote it?

Post 520. Pacman answers back.

That's a frustration post. Maybe he was really confused, misunderstood and got himself in harmfool

So they have been able to make of habit's 306 post and his emotional attitude an HABIT-JAHUDO intimal thing...they are the two who talk again about it. But obviously, Jahudo is no longer suspicious of habit (pacman), and viceversa...

No more decent posts up to 557, where jahudo moves to the hot zone (Ythill-sirdan).

Post 589. jahudo comes back to karne, as karne has not been posting frequently.
Post 597 Fosses karne.
Post 627. He has no candidates. Doesnt want to decide among Ythill-Sirdan, prefers to wait for karne participating. Hey, the only "case" was habit, and indeed he is coaching-defending him along the attack, so no real case whatsoever.

post 649. Since he has been pressured to say things, he comes with some Sirdan's scumtells and analysis, but of course, doesnt take a serious position.

Only later he votes sirdan when Ythill is assigning points.

Long time with no posts or irrelevant posts.


718. he uses Ythill's raincoat and helps pacman.

I agree with Ythill about pacman's play; I don't think he's done anything bad on his own so far, or else I don't interpret it that way. If the feeling is more about habitang still, than why did his wagon end and why did the questioning largely end even before he had to be replaced

but basically, he is not participating in the hot-moments. His next post only comes in:

Post 782. Just some comment and re-stating his position.

A couple of minor posts about me, Cass, some comments and giving info about his pbpa on habit ("I did a pbpa, remember it" !!!) and unvotes after sirdan's claim.

he says that he will place his vote before deadline, but, where is he going to do it ?

If you have followed his case, there is only one possibility. Darox. He was his top suspect. None else apart sirdan. Nothing. Emptiness. No cases. No real suspicions of anyone else.

You have one candidate, only one candidate, you do not suspect of anyone. But HE DOES NOT CAST HIS VOTE. AND REMAINS TILL THE END OF DAY WITHOUT VOTING.

unique post:
post 935. he defends pacman but does not want to bet for darox. Just stays quiet.

post 957. He says he would lynch darox if risk of no-lynch and mildly supports the wagon, but takes no real serious position. Even if Darox was his top scum (indeed, he argues that karne was, and that darox has not provided enough info).

Essentially, all his scumhunting along the game is:

- Joining a wagon when it was really serious (and Ythill and I had been battling for days and days), that turned into a Doc Claim.

- A replaced player. And he abstains to vote the replacement.

- Habit, who after all, he thinks is a townie.

Among these 3 choices, what is his activity ? he unvotes and remains quiet.

VOTE: JAHUDO

p.d. (on Day 2). After all Day 1 being sweet with both Ythill and Me, suddenly, he joins the obvious Nureins wagon. Read his post.

HE SELECTS A VERY MINOR AMOUNT OF DEBATABLE ACTIONS (though he claims it is based on the whole day)
HE ONLY USES HABIT ACTIONS TO JUSTIFY A VOTE ON ME

Obviously, not very difficult. Habit and Jah were "pleasing" ythill and me during all day one.

[nureins]

For starters, I could go back to when I posted 'if habitang was town' material and you were defending me against Ythill.

Please copy for me the post in which Ythill adviced me not to roll so easily...

POST 419. After a pbpa analysis of half a page, Jahudo easily moves his mind.

Ythill and Goat made me consider my tunnel-visioned attacks on habit were not seeing all possibilities.

So for me, after doing a pbpa, that sounds pretty fast move.

[nureins]

Scum buddy to townies all the time.
In fact, part of my reasoning against pushing Ecto harder is that, as long as I suspect you, your behavior suggests that he is town.

how do you know he is a townie? i never assumed it. I simply had some town readings, as of some other people. I never assumed they were townies, as I never did with you. I debated plenty of your points and carefully checked the ones I considered you wrong in.

Also, I don't like how you just rolled over and accepted what he was shoveling.

Glad you noticed that too. Remember it for tomorrow.

Better you also remember this post tomorrow and all that happened in Darox case. If you want to know my opinion, and it is firmly established, all that is not about Darox. All what happened is about Sirdan. Remember it when you do your analysis, coz this is another buddying if you want, but right now I think you are townie, so I want you to know the most important thing in the game once Im dead. People was defending Sirdan and not Darox when day 1 was finishing

[nureins]

Oh please. If any other player had written the posts nuriens gets away with, that player would have been lynched long ago. Nuriens is just one crazed ramble. And you don't even know what lurking is.

I put all your posts together and see nothing. Arguments without justification and/or quoting support. I have no idea how your lurking is so effective.

[nureins]

I'm starting to feel like a broken record because I keep pointing out how your defenses boil down to...

Be careful with Simenon then...he can post a nonsense post in which his rage claims that you are repetitive and so on...

To all that attacked me, I defended. I do not need to defend more if I dont see new questions. Ask questions in a proper way, Ill answer. Ive answered everything in the game.

Maybe you prefer to make funny comments about broken records and claiming your town superiority by knowing the "truth". I do not like obsessed biased townies for a reason. They think they have the truth, so if you dont admit they have the truth, they mantain their position...however, I know my truth, but you dont, so I can talk as a truth-teller, you cannot. But you do !

Come with questions and stop adding shit...

[nureins]

Come with questions and stop adding shit...

Awww, I sowwy, do you want me to leave you alone and stop pickin on you? Poor widdle guy.

[nureins]

I answered to Post 1028 (that was dedicated to me).
This circumlotion point corresponds to Post 1027 which was a general post on all the players and I just didnt find a direct questioning to me. And I really havent seen that you wanted me later to answer this 1027, coz otherwise I would have done it.

Nuriens practiced elephantine circumlocution, touching on the wagon but avoiding the topic of habit's alignment. Instead he pushed suspicion back on the wagon and, only 25 hours after the first vote on habit, twisted Cass' words to start a lurker hunt. Shortly thereafter, he inexplicitly changed his opinion about me so as to agree with me about habit's behavior being excusable.

BEFORE THE WAGON:

a) I found habit a strange player.
b) Interpreted Cass' reaction to Habit as "The possibility of dumb-townie-habit scares Cass due to the previous game: she is townie, habit requires observation but it is not so dangerous as I thought".
c) I asked some things, as you noted, and mostly read him as a bad player like most people in the game.


AFTER THE WAGON

a) My first opinion is expressed in post 319
b) first sentence. I AGREE IN THE BASICS (with GOAT, who had found the wagon suspicious).

Now I guess that you call circumlotion to raise debate. If I were Simenon, I would have just posted these 5 words. "I agree in the basics". And then what ? Such a wonderful reflection on my side...

So I made couple of reflections for Goat, on top of mostly agreeing in the basics.

c) second sentence. I express to Goat my view on habit before the wagon, as stated in before wagon b) above: "I find Habitang partially suspicious, though I relaxed these suspicions due to Cass' first arguments".

d) third sentence. Habit's behavior can be interpreted both as playstyle and scumminess.

Therefore, you have to analyze the votes/fosses of each of the players in the wagon, and this is what I did. Especially because I interpreted that the 3 suspects of Goat were 3 voters in the wagon, since he catalogued it as opportunistic.

e) Cass - interpreted it as natural.
f) Ythill - I had started to focus in a different person a couple of days before, following Cass' suggestion. I had considered you scum in our vis a vis. My first observation from outside was positive, you didnt jump but reflected. So I agreed with Goat (his opinion was I thought he was scum, i have good vibes from this action). So essentially, the same I did. And this process followed, as you know.
g)I thought that Goat´s suspicions on Ecto were a mistake. I pointed it out that Ecto was not voting, but simenon. Goat later clarified it for me.
h)nhat's attack was a first fos based on habit strange behaviour.
i) Simenon's vote was Simenon's way of participating.
j)Andy's vote was not clearly justified in his post.
k) I interpreted jahudo's vote as part of their habit vs jah competition, which at that moment of the game, I thought as a very uninteresting one.
l) I wanted more info from the two voters from whom I had not a clear view of the reasons to vote, Simenon and Andy. Taking into account how these two players posted during all the game, they refused to answer my petition, more or less...

ABOUT LURKERS' HUNT

a) Cass called the voters Opportunistic club. Said that she felt the Lurkers' club was more suspicious.

b) Sim pointed out that FOSSERS should also be part of the opportunistic club.

c) I answered to Sim to be EXPLICIT on his words, not to talk so vaguely. The only Fosser was Cass, I asked him to judge her action as either opportunistic or not. And to rank it in comparison to a vote (his).

d) I also demanded Cass to be EXPLICIT by exposing who the lurkers were.

e) I commented back to her, but started no Lurker hunt. My attack was on TPT / Tritch before the wagon, as you perfectly remember (and if you do not remember, you can read above).

f) I did not escape at any moments to comment on the wagon or habit. in Post 343 I commented again, and you can see there some of the points here described.

CHANGE OPINION AGREEING WITH YOU

Incorrect. Post 363, as you probably refer, agrees mostly with you, but does not change opinion at all. As you can see, I describe the Cass-Habit situation and my read on it, AS I HAD ALREADY DONE IN THE VERY FIRST POST TO GOAT (see above). In this post you can see among others my previous points:

before wagon b and c (about my read on Cass and Habit)
after wagon f (about my read on you).

I guess that for you to interpret that I changed opinion, you consider that I found before habit very suspicious. Something that I didnt. STRANGE-REQUIRE OBSERVESATION-FORMULATED SOME QUESTIONS-READ AS BAD PLAYER-DIDNT FOS/VOTE IN THE WAGON-AGREED WITH GOAT WITH MINOR COMMENTS AND OBSERVATIONS...

p.d. and no, the answer to such question about reading my posts is no, I know that you read all. I have seen that many others dont, but you do.

[nureins]

blablabla

Make questions that can be answered. I dont lose my time with stupidities, I have a life. Read the previous post to see that I do answer questions when properly formulated. And I do answer adequately.

[nureins]

BEFORE THE WAGON
It doesn't matter what you thought before the wagon, not for this discussion. However, having the singular belief "X is a bad player" says absolutely zip about what you think of his alignment.

doesn't it ? Essentially, I agreed with Goat because this was the natural read for me with my past reads of habit. I described this in detail.

[quote="ythill
']
Your agreement is very vague. [/quote]
I agree in the basics = QFT for some other players...my style is my style. I am not gonna write 5 words in a post as much as any of you could insist. I will develpe my posts...

If you think there is confusion on my agreement, I explained in the previous post the chain of sentences in my post. If any of them incoherent, please make it notice. Your interpretation is clearly not mine.

That's scum behavior. You've been caught.

What I described is not scum behavior. I notice that instead of using my post you used your own interpretation. This was clear due to your vote, and seemed to me an explanation for the rest of people to vote me. If this is the case, it is better if you direct your post to them and not to me. You do not need to convince me of what I am or how bad/good you are doing for jumping on my lynch.

If it is a pressing tool, I can just laugh.

[nureins]

@GOAT (ACCUSSING ME OF BUDDYING KURIBO)

[quote="nur"]
we, the retarded open you the doors of our house.
[\quote]

[quote="nur"]
while I re-consider the situation and formulate my own questions, I can enjoy your majesty of the perfect scumhunting..
[\quote]

Goat, I know I am a pain in your ass with hundreds of posts and information. But please, my first post to Kuribo is everything but buddying. It is full of irony. I consider him a self-righteous poster with lot of egocentrism in his playstyle (as I pointed out later directly in response to his nonsense words). If you really cannot see the irony and think my post to Kuribo is buddying...

Another message for town: Go and look for those who LABELLED me as buddying (not to Ecto, but to those that FIXED the word in your subconscious). It seems to me we all can learn a lot from this tactic.

Now i will go on laughing after my Kuribo's buddying...I am really shocked.