TM 2023 | Open: PYP S_TM | Endgame

[Staeg]

Not fond of Rad's presence being the LLD null-or-town debacle + let's all take a breath, but the latter really isn't what I'd bill Rad for; Marashu's entrance being justify vote -> scumreading Rad for the moderation -> piggyback joke haha we're scum -> hop on Rad bandwagon was impressive, Gimli has the right idea

Implosion came in with good takes but then RVS'd instead of doing a real vote, which they still haven't moved; I like them following up on some of relevant setup theory bits ("this game does median, so how good is the data from previous games" + "you included the 1-in-5 as positive examples, but in reality those point in the opposite direction"), but they don't do anything with the protracted theory conversation (or otherwise) so I'm leaning scum on this one, too

VOTE: Marashu

[Staeg]

Ythan, I'm confused about your read progression on LLD - at the time of your vote LLD indeed hadn't given much substance to her theory argument, but through all the good and bad arguments LLD gives afterwards you don't seem to move much at all. I gather that you're not fond of her reaction to the vote and that more theory arguments swing and miss, but what is the thing that she's doing which is actually suspicious?

(I don't have strong takes on the extended battle beyond not getting how as either alignment LLD and Ythan keep talking past each other)

[Staeg]

Marashu's entrance being justify vote -> scumreading Rad for the moderation -> piggyback joke haha we're scum -> hop on Rad bandwagon was impressive, Gimli has the right idea

why was this impressive? assuming impressive means very scummy here

Aye - engaging with

only

the parts of the theory discussion that involve the triple vote they were part of feels like ass-covering instead of caring that much about theory (LLD's argument isn't sound, I expect that given someone already pointing this out he'd at least notice) and I really don't see how the most suspicious thing in all 16 pages is Rad's moderation

The joke reads as off-key "haha yes I, the townie, am also comfortable joking about being scum" but idk that's in the same tier as "the way Rad did moderation felt scummy", it's just a cherry on top

[Staeg]

so what's the difference for you between marashu voting rad and me voting rad?

I like your takes on the LLD-Ythan debacle, the kinds of questions you ask people feel like they're pushing for the right kinds of info to come out (getting stories straight in who did and didn't know you go 1, what's up with Alisae's #12) and your vote in itself had way more juice than just "lol this moderation seems scummy, ight imma take off"

All of that is post-hoc after going back and reading your ISO tho, the short answer is you seem solidly town in vibe and content while Marashu doesn't have anything other than a wishy-washy townlist

[Staeg]

"Gimli has the right idea" could be strategical phrasing.

What does this even mean

"Gimli has the right idea" is very strange here, given that Gimli has not at this point explained the vote in 413 and that two others (LLD and Alisae) are on the wagon at this point.

I was pretty sure that the vote was based on the preceding 3 posts and that he'd had a similar reaction to mine given that the vote happened then and there

Staeg, what are your thoughts on Gimli?

Leaning town, consistently good vibe and correct reactions without anything outstanding

[Staeg]

I like mith's angle on me-Rad - #790 specifically is pointing in a direction I'd want to look in if I weren't one of the involved parties

Speaking of which, I'm not at all fond of Rad's more recent posts (yes, yes, funny timing) - the line of questioning in #567 is dead (you got an "I felt like it" in response to the whole thing and then slapped Alisae as a townread), #725 and #772 feel defensive of the bad kind (the questions thrown back at Datisi don't sound like trying to figure out Datisi's alignment)

[Staeg]

LLD if wolf, by not wanting to go after top 4 is probably aiming to protect someone.

I'm not voting mith or Ythan. I don't think Gimli is a wolf and honestly I don't feel like voting them is even productive right now.

Not fond of Rad's presence being the LLD null-or-town debacle + let's all take a breath, but the latter really isn't what I'd bill Rad for; Marashu's entrance being justify vote -> scumreading Rad for the moderation -> piggyback joke haha we're scum -> hop on Rad bandwagon was impressive, Gimli has the right idea

Implosion came in with good takes but then RVS'd instead of doing a real vote, which they still haven't moved; I like them following up on some of relevant setup theory bits ("this game does median, so how good is the data from previous games" + "you included the 1-in-5 as positive examples, but in reality those point in the opposite direction"), but they don't do anything with the protracted theory conversation (or otherwise) so I'm leaning scum on this one, too

VOTE: Marashu

I suspect staeg because of this post. This is a post that I feel like is written to look good and present something as ironclad. It's a kind of post that aims to justify themselves.

Wolves like to generally look good and have ironclad reads.
Villagers want to be right.

It could also be argued that they're distancing from Rad with this but also not voting them. If I want to vote town but have wolves in my wolf pool this is how I'll often go about it so I imagine that's what is what could be happening here.

Reading Rad interactions with LLD, I feel like it's not impossible for a wolf!Rad to come out of the gates say that their teammate is being aggressive if they're a wolf.
It's not like impossible for those two to fake the interactions that they did, I imagine the goal would be to prove that Rad's initial thought process was a thought process if it was fabricated.
The way that ended with Rad being like "ok ya you're different and this is how you're different" could come from a wolf.
they revisit it and say that they could actually be how they're different but it still reads like you could be trying to force the conclusion you want to force.

Staeg and LLD are also positioned similarly in Rad's readlist.

There is an argument that Rad would probably want to put LLD higher on his readlist but I think playing it the way he's playing it could be the safe play

LLD protection reasoning sounds solid, I have no idea what you're on about wrt those reads being (presented as) ironclad or what reading of events has me distancing from Rad (up until last post) - elaborate?

[Staeg]

I have no idea what you're on about wrt those reads being (presented as) ironclad or what reading of events has me distancing from Rad (up until last post) - elaborate?

I think your post. 415, was crafted with the intent to look good as opposed to being right.

Ya I can buy that impression, but you're not

just

saying that the vibe is plumage, there's that other bit about ironclad reads, wtf do you mean by that?

Not fond of Rad's presence being the LLD null-or-town debacle + let's all take a breath, but the latter really isn't what I'd bill Rad for

you're distancing from rad but you're not going

after

them but instead you're going after who you could potentially see as limbait.

Are we using different definitions for distancing? Playing defense for someone by going for limbait doesn't fit any that I know of; it sounds to me like you're saying something other than mith's "looks like they're deflecting shots from each other", but I can't tell what it is

[Staeg]

Are we using different definitions for distancing? Playing defense for someone by going for limbait doesn't fit any that I know of; it sounds to me like you're saying something other than mith's "looks like they're deflecting shots from each other", but I can't tell what it is

If you are a wolf with Rad and you wanted to appear as unaligned w/ Rad while also voting Marashu, the player you would perceive as limbait if you are a wolf, I believe the best way to do that would be to shade Rad while also voting Marashu

Ok I'm not sure why that one took so long for me to stop being confused about, good talk
I no longer have issues with your vote, gl

(and ty)

[Staeg]

VOTE: marashu

What's up with this btw? Bit of an odd spot in time to vote marashu, did something change between your last burst of posts after Maru's last sighting and here?

[Staeg]

Staeg's takes on me are... I mean staeg is right and I don't like killing people who will generally kill me but I just don't have a townread on them and I'm not getting a townie intent like i otherwise might

I'm slow or something which specific takes are you talking about and is the "will generally kill me" some meta thing I'm forgetting?

the line of questioning in #567 is dead (you got an "I felt like it" in response to the whole thing and then slapped Alisae as a townread)

I forgot to respond to this earlier and just remembered.

Where do you think that line of questioning should have gone that I didn't take it? Was it scummy to have stopped pushing the point and moved on? Do you think her answer was scummy or townie or NAI? Like why even bring this up except to have something to point at about me that you "didn't like"?

Presumably you asked the question because you thought it would be useful for something along the lines of "coherent explanation" = +town, "bad/absent reason" = +scum, but this didn't happen (which I would point towards as scummy, something something busywork without a background "what's this person's alignment" process)
At this point Alisae seems to me like she's on designer drugs half the time so the response seems pretty NAI coming from her specifically
And yes, I brought it up because I didn't like it ie seems scummy, what's the question

stayed too long, i'm off again

ciao

Thank you, you were very cooperative.
UNVOTE:

I'm going to think about what it is I want to do next.

Wait why'd you move your vote off me



Re: recent LLD content - THIS IS ME CALLING YOUR BLUFF -> collaborative back and forth with Alisae feels off to me (specifically something around #866 being more jovial/pat-on-back-y than I'd expect) but beyond that nothing jumps out to me
(I also keep having a hard time understanding how LLD arrives at some takes, like

Maru's low effort posting can be cured by more legitimate pressure that no one seems to want to put there. All the "low info elimination" talk concerns me a lot. They'd give info if they would prodcue reads or content, of which they do neither.

And yet no one seems to poke them about it.

since Maru has disappeared and I'm pretty damn sure they will get poked hard by several people when they show up and I expect that this is what basically everyone expects to happen, no clue where the disconnect is coming from but this doesn't seem particularly scummy as opposed to just ???)

[Staeg]

I really want to lim both Rad and Mara but they're near definitely not scum together

@Ythan

Ythan, I'm confused about your read progression on LLD - at the time of your vote LLD indeed hadn't given much substance to her theory argument, but through all the good and bad arguments LLD gives afterwards you don't seem to move much at all. I gather that you're not fond of her reaction to the vote and that more theory arguments swing and miss, but what is the thing that she's doing which is actually suspicious?

(I don't have strong takes on the extended battle beyond not getting how as either alignment LLD and Ythan keep talking past each other)

This might be me failing at reading comprehension but I have absolutely no idea what you think about anyone at all in the game right now except maybe Bella scum and possibly LLD because your vote's stuck there

(sort of related side point: I assume that some of you are getting something out of the proxy-reads like "ah yes let me channel the spirit of the great Titus to impart entirely orthogonal reads onto the thread" but my eyes glaze over)

[Staeg]

I need to interact with Staeg more, is what this is telling me, actually

Love to hear it, start here:

Staeg's takes on me are... I mean staeg is right and I don't like killing people who will generally kill me but I just don't have a townread on them and I'm not getting a townie intent like i otherwise might

I'm slow or something which specific takes are you talking about and is the "will generally kill me" some meta thing I'm forgetting?

[Staeg]

Alisae seems to me like she's on designer drugs

What gives you this impression?

Posts like 956 where you see a potential connection which to me feels

inspired

; the rapid swapping between potential scumteams to see what angle, frame, picture most fits or follows from non-overlapping assumptions; the Joker energy in 730 and, of course, the response to the questions on soft mechanics/theory being a whimsical lol felt like it give me the on-drugs impression
To be clear, this is town leaning if anything and I often appreciate it happening in thread (esp in the recentish LLD interaction), but it also makes me not that interested in your takes on setup mechanics

[Staeg]

LLD I don't agree with your towncase on Mara at all - you raise some good points like the spacing indicating actual grouping indicating progression/looking for alignments, but I feel that it's vastly overshadowed by how safe every single one of those reads is given where the wind's blowing (which I expect is +you, -me, -Gimli, -Rad) - even imaginality is placed in range! (also I find this case outstandingly understandable, 0 cases of "eldritch LLD concept coming through beep beep")
This reminds me, you were saying some time ago that you're the backup lynch option for today or sth and I neither had nor have any idea what you're talking about, I don't see how you're actually getting lynched today in any world

Now what

would

convince me of Mara!town is... the other two competing wagons... being scum... hm............

[Staeg]

I need to interact with Staeg more, is what this is telling me, actually

Love to hear it, start here:

Staeg's takes on me are... I mean staeg is right and I don't like killing people who will generally kill me but I just don't have a townread on them and I'm not getting a townie intent like i otherwise might

I'm slow or something which specific takes are you talking about and is the "will generally kill me" some meta thing I'm forgetting?

oh, i misspoke

I think that is supposed to be "I don't generally like killing people who won't kill me, generally" I... I can't read that post any other way, it's super backwards. I don't know what my brain did there but it's definitely meant to be "Staeg has me town and I really shouldn't antagonize people who townread me but I'm not getting townie intent from the townread on me like I otherwise might".

Sorry

Understood, but where were you getting that I'm townreading you up until last post which hadn't happened yet? I could be misremembering but I thought I was wringing my hands of the entire concept for now so I can ask Fate what your alignment is later

[Staeg]

yo, I'll be around more later today, weed day yesterday + one of my busiest days at work just ate up all my time!

I still want to hear about that Marashu vote fwiw, why'd it happen when it did instead of earlier?

[Staeg]

I really want to lim both Rad and Mara but they're near definitely not scum together

@Ythan

Ythan, I'm confused about your read progression on LLD - at the time of your vote LLD indeed hadn't given much substance to her theory argument, but through all the good and bad arguments LLD gives afterwards you don't seem to move much at all. I gather that you're not fond of her reaction to the vote and that more theory arguments swing and miss, but what is the thing that she's doing which is actually suspicious?

(I don't have strong takes on the extended battle beyond not getting how as either alignment LLD and Ythan keep talking past each other)

This might be me failing at reading comprehension but I have absolutely no idea what you think about anyone at all in the game right now except maybe Bella scum and possibly LLD because your vote's stuck there

(sort of related side point: I assume that some of you are getting something out of the proxy-reads like "ah yes let me channel the spirit of the great Titus to impart entirely orthogonal reads onto the thread" but my eyes glaze over)

I actually haven't dived into Bella-scum that's just a team read, my number two would be Ali.

to be clear you still think I'm scum at this point?

I do~ <3

have you bothered to read anything else that has happened this game, or is this just like "I want to be right about catching LLD day 1 so I'm going to marry myself to this and never let doubt creep in".

I've spoken on why I'm voting for you and I'm not interested in humoring the way you're still trying to mischaracterize me lol

You're also quoting a nest in which I'm telling you that I have no idea why you're voting LLD and asking you about that, without responding in any way

[Staeg]

I think... I THINK I meant that you were taking stances on me that indicated you weren't currently in the market for suspecting me. At least... at that point you were mentioning me a GOOD AMOUNT without actually... voting me or indicating suspicion of me.

This does track and is in fact an accurate reading of the situation

[Staeg]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Imaginality

[Staeg]

I really want to lim both Rad and Mara but they're near definitely not scum together

Why?

I don't see s!Mara's only interaction with the thread for a while being a weak wagon-y vote on s!Rad with bonus points from the readslist not backing off of the take at all

Staeg, why did you vote imaginality? As far as I can tell from ISO you have said nothing about him at all.

I did mention a scumlean very early under moniker "implosion", but you're right, I haven't said anything about him after that; tldr is I just haven't seen anything that makes me go +town on him (the first time he mentioned the mith scum case I felt quite positively, but the followup/responses to mith's responses didn't go well) and every other post pushes me just a bit further in the scummy direction, lemme go dig for examples

[Staeg]

[..]
When I wrote the italicized, I hadn't gotten to that exchange. Didn't go back to edit it. ~shrug~ I would just rephrase it: I don't have reason to think LLD doesn't believe that scum are likely to be in the bigger groups and that that is important. I think she's wrong about that (the importance of "scum are likely to be in bigger groups" in the absence of "scum are more likely to be in bigger groups than to be in an arbitrary group of the same size"), but being wrong is not a particular strong scumtell in my experience.

What is scummy to me is how she pushed it and how the argument about it progressed. But that is still mostly vibe at this point, because I'm old and slow and still don't feel at all caught up in this game.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "mech" (is this what the cool kids are saying these days?). I'm also curious why you didn't actually push on LLD after the 311/313 exchange. As you say, 313 was really bad... so why no follow-up on that until now?

is mith's response to imaginality's potentially interesting observation about mith's stance on LLD and a counter question, to which imaginality responds with

Hey good timing! That's what I've been mulling over today. Is one of my scumreads on the two of them wrong, or are they bussing?

Currently my position is... I still back my reads. My gut was good the last game I was in, I think I'm on the right track here too.

However, I actually don't see it as a bus as such precisely because mith pulled his punches a bit. Yes mith's voting LLD but like in the post I quoted previously I feel like town!mith would be pushing the LLD wagon more.

So I think it's like someone proposed earlier in the game with Ythan - distancing more than bussing, because of being confident that LLD can avoid being today's lim.

However if one of my reads is wrong it's more likely the one on mith since his recent posts read okay to me and I know I do sometimes tunnel on particular points on people.

that last line is quite the question mark raiser - imaginality still suspects mith, but a little less because his recent posts read okay, but not to the point that he'd want to respond to the relevant question in there

I thought I explained that but basically I feel like a townie suspicious of LLD would be pushing harder on that slot. Especially after 313. Whereas scum have reason to not push as hard if they're only trying to distance from their buddy.

right, except imaginality didn't push on 313

at all

until this very post (besides a throwaway "like mith said, 313 really was bad" in 695)

[Staeg]

My point was I think it's less likely a townie comes up with a towncase on Marashu as detailed as LLD did. It seemed almost perfomatively thorough.

on top of being baseline wrong, this ignores the context in which the towncase popped up - it starts with her quoting Datisi's "I wish I could understand the machinations of your mind"

I have a question for you LLD while we're both here - who are your top 3 or 4 scumreads at the moment?

this just reads hella like looking for fake engagement, what were you hoping to get out of this? would her quote-posting her Maratown case get you anywhere? if you're going to say "if she had new reads that might tip me towards t!LLD" I'll roll to disbelieve

[Staeg]

Note: "more likely" to be wrong, not *likely* to be. I'm not sure what exact percentage I'd put on it but by way of example I could think I had 30% chance of being wrong about you, 20% chance of being wrong about LLD, but that still means I think I'm 56% chance of being right that you're scum together. So in my mind that's why I shifted my vote despite scumreading you both.

this is a bit of an arcane moonshot, but imaginality strikes me as a probability-conscious person who generally knows math, and these just... don't feel like the numbers that a townie (=someone actually keeping track of what the odds of someone being town vs scum) looking for numbers to grab for an example comes up with - they are far too high/certain this early in the game and I have trouble imagining a townie going "yes, 56% that I'm right about an entire scum pairing sounds like a good example to use" (the odds at the start being 4.5% afaict)
((I would have much less of a concern if imaginality wasn't also the person to point out the 1-in-5 thing))

[Staeg]

Also, having thought about it a little more myself, I think there's also actually a possible advantage to limming top 4 today that might not apply tomorrow.

also didn't notice this the first time around at all, but now @imaginality was this meant as a breadcrumb or what happened here? surely you didn't only then realize that a PR getting lynched would get you a PR?

[Staeg]

My townread on Staeg was basically just because they seemed very relaxed about Alisae's scumread on them. "Ok ya I see why you see it that way" and "I don't have any issues with your vote on me now, gl".

If Staeg is known for being cool under pressure then that attitude becomes null I guess (and I supposed they could be getting coached by their team). I could see maybe that asking Alisae why she moved her vote off Staeg might be performative.

Does anyone have good meta on Staeg?

They interacted with LLD this way as well and honestly, I don’t see why it’s town?
It’s not doing anything to move the game forward and this is how I love to interact with town who is right on me being a wolf. Go with the reasonable “ya I can see why you think that” approach and hope u get tr’d for it

nah, there are a lot of worldlines that end with me lobbing you/LLD in the scumpile for how those resolve, but in your case it was me wearing underwear as a hat (you weren't actually contradicting yourself as I was p sure you were at the start of that interaction) and LLD could've tried brewing up some bullshit failing-to-match-reality answer instead of the honest and likely true "I, uh, don't actually know what I was saying here, but here's my best guess"

[Staeg]

good one
remember to respond to this when you're back, I do want to understand what was happening there

Also, having thought about it a little more myself, I think there's also actually a possible advantage to limming top 4 today that might not apply tomorrow.

also didn't notice this the first time around at all, but now @imaginality was this meant as a breadcrumb or what happened here? surely you didn't only then realize that a PR getting lynched would get you a PR?

[Staeg]

lynched

heads up, this word ain't allowed anymore.

do you mind giving me a rough list of where you're at in this game? can be just a naked readslist

my bad re: badword, have been trying to avoid it but the muscle memory is rough

readslist:
Ceph and Datisi gigatown
mith, Alisae, LLD town
Gimli leaning town
Bella (soft pointers in both directions) and Mena (basically no pointers, somehow; wish he would talk to me) at ~null
Ythan leaning scum
Rad, mara and imaginality scum, but absolutely not all together and even pairwise fits are hard

[Staeg]

Ceph

can i hear about this one pls?

sure, here's a grab bag of sentiments:
the biggest one by far is how often their vibe on the thread mirrors mine (LLD emotions aren't AI, blech.., getting engaged by Alisae but then walking off to play videogames (while still noticing how others did/didn't react to them doing the fakereads thing without knowing that he would walk away), the LLD bluff thing, noticing moments when people ascribe reads to them that didn't exist (982), how trying to keep up with all 4 games without being drawn in by his own feels, his back-and-forth with Rad being quite parallel to my own worries about Rad, the feelings about Alisae's and LLD's post quantity, the entirety of 1260, the jokey approach in 1471 (and generally his jokes just land incredibly well for me given where I expect a town person might be if they are online and posting at the times he is posting))
among all the people doing references to their team's reads and how they affect their own reads I find Ceph's to be closest to my own experience of interacting with my team (mostly absent but sometimes popping in with 1268 - I haven't talked about what's marinating in my mind based on teammate takes but that lends more credence to him doing this because it's what's happening, not because this is the Thing To Do)

after going through ~all of his ISO I just don't have any instances of him saying anything that makes me go "wtf how'd you get

there

" and 3/4 of the posts have me going "ya same", which feels way above par

[Staeg]

good one
remember to respond to this when you're back, I do want to understand what was happening there

Also, having thought about it a little more myself, I think there's also actually a possible advantage to limming top 4 today that might not apply tomorrow.

also didn't notice this the first time around at all, but now @imaginality was this meant as a breadcrumb or what happened here? surely you didn't only then realize that a PR getting lynched would get you a PR?

This was a slight breadcrumb, in that I knew I wouldn't be able to explain my comment there until I roleclaimed. Where you're off track though, is that comment wasn't about me getting a PR, in and of itself - if we lim a VT today I still get a PR if scum (or vigs) nightkill one.

That's true regardless of whether we lim low or high and definitely doesn't factor into considerations that only apply today and not tomorrow

What I'd realised was that (from my perspective) if we're going to lim top 4 I'd rather do that today (when I know the PR's coming to me who I know is town), compared with tomorrow (when chances are I already have some different PR). Like in a world where a top draft player claims AwesomePR, and people believe I'm town, it's a little less risky to lim them today compared to the same scenario tomorrow.

That advantage doesn't apply if people are scumreading me, so that's why I didn't allude to it earlier, because at game start I was expecting not to be particularly townread D1. But then I actually was being fairly widely townread up until everyone hated 961 and 964 (the very post you're quoting lol).

And here you're thinking about peoples' perception of you, not whether or not town get an additional useful night action - what I would expect a town reasoning process to be here is "if we lynch a scum PR d1, then that's one less night action for scum and one more for town" (unless it's the night 3 vig), but this is conspicuously absent in favor of whether you're townread and will survive longer

[Staeg]

Re: the wagon on me
Everyone who's going "hmmmm coaching??" is in another reality, idk who among Fate, DGB and Feysal you expect is coming in with the "ah yes put 3/4 of the people who have had wagons on them in your scumbucket, don't worry about making it coherent tho nobody will notice" pro tips
While typing this out I did notice that "coaching by Staeg's scumteam" is a much more reasonable hypothesis, but somehow that's not what anyone is saying

Idk what to say on the interaction bit, I ask questions that I want answered and then 50% of the time they just don't; I'm asleep during most of the Alisae posting parties that spawn 6 pages and they rarely contain anything I want to respond to after everyone's fucked off; I don't have anything I want to ask specific townreads and I'm not into the whole "hello can you give your top 3 and bottom 3 reads" thing

[Staeg]

And then while posting the examples a little while later, they still don't give any view on my roleclaim which came right after their vote on me. Which feels unnatural for a townie not to comment on but I could see it from scum wanting to fencesit on it or just focused on finding some posts they can criticise rather than genuinely solving me.

Ah yes, instead of going with an easy "idk this looks like a claim coming from scum" I actually wanted to sit on the fence specifically related to your claim
Your claim on its own doesn't move me in any direction, if you're town you picked it and claimed it for the reasons that you did and if you're scum they were reasons that you already had in your back pocket from the moment a wagon started forming on you - it's the inconsistencies like the one I just mentioned that make a difference between s!imag claiming UB and t!imag claiming UB

[Staeg]

(I can definitely see Bella's theory that Staeg is getting guidance from their team as a possibility. Staeg's recent posts about me for example could have been based on stuff from their team chat. And I can imagine a teammate saying "you should keep the focus on imaginality and get him limmed before you become a viable counterwagon")

How are you posting this right after "looks like Staeg wanted to fencesit on imaginality's claim"

[Staeg]

lynch

fuck I'm sorry

[Staeg]

(I can definitely see Bella's theory that Staeg is getting guidance from their team as a possibility. Staeg's recent posts about me for example could have been based on stuff from their team chat. And I can imagine a teammate saying "you should keep the focus on imaginality and get him limmed before you become a viable counterwagon")

How are you posting this right after "looks like Staeg wanted to fencesit on imaginality's claim"

You wanted to post to keep pressure on me
You didn't know what to say about my claim because you didn't know how town would react to it (or perhaps wanted to get your teammates' (or your buddies, sure)) take on it too
So in the meantime you post a bunch of stuff you (or your teammates) found to say about my earlier posts

"in the meantime" being 18h and 7 pages after your claim, after ~4 different takes on it have already been posted in thread? Whose opinion am I waiting for?

[Staeg]

People were against limming top 4 because of the risk of limming townie PRs. My point is that's less risky today as we don't lose the PR. The point about being townread is this argument only works (for others) when I'm townread not that it'll get me townread. Nothing about surviving longer.

You're right that we get a bonus if we lim a scum PR but that's less likely than mislimming, so my focus was on the more likely D1 outcome. If we hit scum we're doing well anyhow, getting the extra action is just gravy.

Sure, we don't lose

that

PR, but we do "lose" the very next one that dies, the difference is in whether you or the townie gets to control this night's action
Unless you have some reason to believe that more powerful PRs are likely to be limmed than shot, I'm really not seeing what the added value to limming a PR today compared to tomorrow is (except for the gravy, which apparently isn't relevant enough to talk about since it's less likely... by a factor of 4?... idk man the payoff seems way higher to me even if you weight it with the likelihood of a scum d1 lim)

[Staeg]

And to clarify, I want to vote for whomever Ali votes for.

I'm so confused - Ali's voting me, has been talking about how I'm scum for the past few days and has been defending imaginality
what... is happening here?

[Staeg]

It would be hilarious if I just kept dodging the question, right?

I personally think it would've been actively hilarious

[Staeg]

Sup staeg, do you have a read on me?

I like your slot quite a lot after the past couple of pages, close to locktown if imag flips red otherwise just somewhere up there

[Staeg]

ya actually what the fuck am i saying people should just place votes and whatever happens happens.

I strongly agree, especially as it pertains to Mara and Gimli

Also I'm not claiming today even if the alternative is limming in case anyone was waiting on that to inform their vote

[Staeg]

Staeg, sorry if you’ve answered this elsewhere already and if you had just link me pls, but how would you describe your play style approach to a game when town?

It's been years since I played forum mafia, but what I find myself doing now is hunting specifically for contradictions and gut reads
Idk how this would be different from me playing scum; I expect I'd be significantly more nervous bc I'm on a team with people I don't want to let down, but in terms of what kinds of things you'd see me doing in thread I think it would be fairly similar content-wise

[Staeg]

VOTE: Staeg I'd rather flip Staeg over imag, to be honest.

hi can you explain what you find townie about imag / what you find scummy about staeg since you've posted that beautiful readslist

Imag's claim itself was NAI to me, but I can at least see how town!imag would get there. And I don't think that how imag has played since has been particularly scummy.

As for Staeg, well, I don't see 1171 coming from town; it feels more like a rhetorical dismissal than actually addressing the argument.
There's more but I'm running late as it is.

sir that's a Bella post, you meant 1771 - what do you expect "actually addressing the argument" would look like?

[Staeg]

Idt the resistance to Mara is indicative of scum shenanigans, in another time I would be happy to vote there but it's in a different worldline where we're not lazing about for the day to end

Gimli, who's my buddy if I flip red? Who's imag's buddy if he flips red?

(you're insane for townreading the schizoposting specifically btw)

[Staeg]

you don't think that was towny? he is so chill about it

He's reasonably chill, but the difference between this imag and the imag that claimed at 4 votes is that he's identified the out (Alisae pushing my wagon through) and coincidentally is doing this song-and-dance in tandem with Ali - I don't think the mood switch is particularly coincidental

[Staeg]

Nah I'm good, I had imag as less sus than Mara at the time of voting but even if I wanted Mara dead more I don't think we have it in us to transfer momentum

[Staeg]

Alright 1 day 13 hours left. I'm leaning on Ali's read here but you won't get any "I knew it!" from me if he flips town.

VOTE: Staeg

Still happy to jump on a Mena wagon

I don't love the Mara wagon but I get why Gimli's more interested in it than any other.

JUICE JUICE JUICE

[Staeg]

I thought I was at E-1 and imag's at E-2+LLD

[Staeg]

Actually going to look at this wagon today/tonight frfr

I still yearn for this

[Staeg]

So uh Rad, I can't tell what you're doing on this page at all but now that you did why are you still sheeping Ali

[Staeg]

Tho I assure you I haven't claimed

[Staeg]

I'm also heading to bed but will be around until the deadline after that, would love to wake up to some Ythan stance-taking content

[Staeg]

@dats, staeg pls join me on this

VOTE: rad

Idk man, who do you expect will join on Rads who wasn't on imag? Without actually having 7 votes I'd prefer that we don't drive up yet another person, and separately even after the horror that was Rad's last day of posting I still think imag is more likely scum

[Staeg]

I think the only world I can think of where a wolf!Staeg wouldn't want to join a wagon on Rad is if Rad was also a wolf. That seems like the only universe where that happens?

Not that I wouldn't love for your vote to unglue from me but I wouldn't describe myself as "wouldn't want to join a wagon on Rad" - I'm absolutely wagoning if it's me or Rad, but until Ythan coalesces or someone else chimes in that road leads to me or no lim, which isn't great

[Staeg]

why Bella is opting to vote her teammate w/ me and when she could just find some way to pick at what I'm doing and keep voting imaginality

Bella's been townreading imag the whole game?

[Staeg]

I think the only world I can think of where a wolf!Staeg wouldn't want to join a wagon on Rad is if Rad was also a wolf. That seems like the only universe where that happens?

Not that I wouldn't love for your vote to unglue from me but I wouldn't describe myself as "wouldn't want to join a wagon on Rad" - I'm absolutely wagoning if it's me or Rad, but until Ythan coalesces or someone else chimes in that road leads to me or no lim, which isn't great

If you = wolf and rad = town, you would probably just let rad happen without making a post. Your vote would have probably moved by now.

Ye I think that's correct

[Staeg]

But it's weird that ZERO players took that up, like "yes Imaginality is the wagon I want" given a lot of those players have EXPRESSED SCUMREADS THERE.

Who among the people not already on the wagon are you thinking of here?=

[Staeg]

Okay, here's a random assortment of words for you:

Carnival, banana, spaceship, disco ball, skateboard, firecracker, seashell, rainbow, popcorn, rollercoaster, dragonfly, typewriter, lightning, coconut, megaphone, saxophone, helicopter, neon, bumblebee, moonlight, and marshmallow.

I hope that was what you were looking for! Let me know if you want me to try something else.

Vote Count 1.14

imaginality (5): mith, Cephrir, Staeg, Datisi, Menalque
Staeg (3):

Alisae,

Bellaphant, imaginality
Lady Lambdadelta (1): Ythan
Rad (1): Marashu
Cephrir (1):

Gimli

Not Voting (2): Lady Lambdadelta,

Rad

With 13 alive, it takes 7 votes to eliminate.

Deadline is April 27 at 10:00 PM PST, in (expired on 2023-04-28 01:00:00).

Bolded names, Staeg

I did quick ISOs and I don't see Gimli or Rad ever mentioning so much as a scum lean on imag, did I misunderstand what you're talking about in the original post?

[Staeg]

oh wow thank you so much for helping me in catching up on the game!!! i'll go read myself i guess

bruh if you're trying to rely on ME to motivate YOU with where my head is at these days

you're asking for the inmate to run the fuckin' asylum b'y

i asked what the votecount is

i see lld quoting a votecount

i thought "oh cool lld is a friend and she updated the vc for me "

and then it WASN'T the current votecount!!!

this was very funny tbf

[Staeg]

Datisi please read my thoughts here before committing to voting me:

viewtopic.php?p=13755837#p13755837

ok i read it

it's a cool theory and all, but it does nothing to actually convince me that the premises - scum in lld/ceph/mith/staeg - are actually true. it's just assuming those premises based on ~things~ that i don't agree on.

but i do have issues with the conclusion as well. the idea is, what. staeg was vaguely scummy but not really, and a pure town wagon of 6 town members just so happened to appear on them? and THEN, scum is all working in tandem to save their ass?

and the thing is, if a scumteam is something like lld/ceph/mith/staeg - well first of all we're fucked (idk about staeg but afaik the others are Good). second of all, i don't think i could ever figure out someone like that on d1. third, i don't think the gamestate would've gotten so fucked for them that they have to panic save their own teammate like this.

Ok so you're sticking with your vote on me? I was hoping you'd be town reading me here so I wouldn't have to claim since I consider you one of the tipping point slots for whether I get limmed here or not.

Who do you see as the other 2 votes on you, and how was Datisi one of the tipping points given 2159 was his last take on you?

[Staeg]

Seriously, I need Rad voters to check in with me on this.

If we're voting Rad, we're saying "it's Rad or imaginality we're never voting another wagon" yeah?

We're not gonna suddenly pivot onto Gimli last second and have a third fucking claim, yeah?

I don't quite see how we end up in Rad-or-imag, Rad is the transition from imag not me and the wagon on me appears to be poofing for what appear to be rather suspicious reasons to me (Alisae goes "oWo town motivation? or scum-scum rad-staeg?", then Bella and

then

Rad unvote me)

[Staeg]

holy shit are we going for a 200 page day 1 for fun or what the fuck is happening, pls stop

[Staeg]

"unvoting me is sus" is an interesting take!

tbc it's not the unvotes themselves, it's where the tipping point for Rad to stop sheeping Ali was (prior to Ali herself unvoting); Bella's unvote is fine and welcome

[Staeg]

Bella, any chance of an imag vote?

[Staeg]

One quick nap and we've switched to a darker timeline, ah well

Going to vote Rad soon now that Ythan is officially not doing anything today

PE: why the fuck weren't we doing this befo-

[Staeg]

Ali how'd your whole line of "staeg is only scum with rad" line of reasoning land you at staeg>imag>>rad as the lim preferences

[Staeg]

UNVOTE: imaginality
VOTE: Rad

[Staeg]

Ali are you a hydra account or something

[Staeg]

Fwiw I had Bella down as the immediate imag partner, but the timing of the unvote makes this feeling shakier; if imag is town I really don't like where Ythan's at

[Staeg]

Ali are you a hydra account or something

What makes you think that?

well

Staeg is no longer real but I am going to stay on it because I'll be on till deadline and I can move my vote then

VOTE: Imaginality

you are right if I think you are a wolf I should just opt to vote Rad.
I'll probably end up doing this if I have to.
I don't want to hammer.
I want to see who hammers.

oh, then i'm killing Rad today because that claim is uh oh stinky haha pooooo and even if it's real it feeds it to imaginality theoretically which leaves ? for the scum team

i think?

you can take hammer.
the fact you're making a comment on the claim when in this gamestate it's completely just wine and coinflippy is noted

Ya I don't think a counter is going to form
VOTE: Rad

[Staeg]

Fwiw I had Bella down as the immediate imag partner, but the timing of the unvote makes this feeling shakier; if imag is town I really don't like where Ythan's at

are you saying you didn't scum read me?

No, I still have you at ~40% scum while imag's at 75% or something, I actually have no clue who the fuck your partners would be

[Staeg]

If Rad flips town then if we have a town JK, then hello JK, please flip a coin and protect me if it's heads. Make scum wonder whether to risk NKing me or not.

Or you know, maybe don't. If I get NKed it helps town solve quite a bit maybe.

But keeping scum guessing is good too. Maybe flip a three sided coin

...

[Staeg]

Yay it's over so long Rad

any... any... guesses as to what color he'll flip? a crumb?

[Staeg]

I want a crumb of your reads
pls

[Staeg]

I'm so happy you NK'd me N1 if you hadn't done that I'm p sure I would've single-handedly lost town the game starting d2 lmao

I had Dats as locktown and was about to go in on LLD after imag, not to mention being second pick VT

I never thought Ythan was scum fwiw (even though I abhor the... playstyle...?), had to generate some smoke so she doesn't get shot (very curious to read the scum PT and see if that affected anything, or how the decision to dome me was made)

[Staeg]

Aw shucks, I was trying to come across as the actual cop (and was worried Ythan would pick up on it and hammer me >_>)

[Staeg]

Ok lovely that's exactly what I was hoping to see in the scum PT

that's a dank meme kurbio