Mini 2321: Classic Commercials (Postgame)

[Thomith]

VOTE: ssbm_kyouko

Hello Hello.

[Thomith]

Hi.

Zoobooks are so cute

Where's your vote?

Why did you ask Hu Tao where their vote was but not gob, who also didn't vote?

[Thomith]

Hi.

Zoobooks are so cute

Where's your vote?

Why did you ask Hu Tao where their vote was but not gob, who also didn't vote?

I did not notice.

Fair enough.

You didn't vote either though.

[Thomith]

FL I’ve arbitrarily decided you’re town and I’m just gonna go with whatever way the wind takes you.

That sounds like it probably won't go wrong.

[Thomith]

I would suggest finding thomith and bingle as town though.

Why are Me/Bingle town?

[Thomith]

I would suggest finding thomith and bingle as town though.

This seems a bit easy of townreads

What do you mean?

[Thomith]

Okay, that makes more sense.
I thought you were saying that we were both easy to townread, and I was also confused because I had no clue how we would be so early.

[Thomith]

Hi.

Zoobooks are so cute

Where's your vote?

Why did you ask Hu Tao where their vote was but not gob, who also didn't vote?

I did not notice.

Fair enough.

You didn't vote either though.

If you want a more solid answer, this back and forth with Dunn is a town process.

Holding Dunn accountable for applying the same standard across multiple slots is a lot more likely to come from town trying to discern the intention behind an action than scum. Could scum fake it? Maybe I guess, it would probably feel more pointed however.

Bingle is more a vibe read for being willing to play into my bs. I like that kind of thing.

Instead of just shrugging me off and going, wow that scummy behavior is pretty scummy.

Since that’s kinda the point.

Speaking of I have some detrimental posting to get back to.

I agree with this. Both of you town (RCE and Thom) so far in my eyes

What changed? I thought there was nothing worth a townread?

RCE is conf town in my eyes

Can you expand as to why, or is it mainly a soul read?

I’ve played with Gob as scum, and this doesn’t seem like his style—I don’t think anything so far is scum-indicative for me. Slight townread there for now.

Do you see anything town indicative?

So basically, I’m countering your meta read with my meta read.

Your read is valid, but for now, I’m happy pushing Gob.

I am noting your meta defense, though. I could be wrong.

I want to chime in here a little. I've recently played with Gob as town (granted he was part of a hydra), and immediately, he did something in this game that he also did at the start of that game, where he randomly labelled half the players as probably town with a vague reason to get reactions.
I noticed he did the same thing here, which is why I didn't comment on it here, because I also wanted to observe it to see how people reacted.

[Thomith]

I mean I guess he could do it as scum, but his start to this game seemed pretty much identical to that town game (both with the statement to gather reactions that i mentioned, and the following posts), which is why I had a light town read for now.

In that same game, Kyouko seemed much more engaged early on than she is currently, but tbh that could just be because she is busy or something, so NAI for now, but will be interested in her first few content posts to help me make a choice there.

Dunn is pinging me because of how he questioned Hu Tao's lack of a vote, but not gobs, and also not voting himself, but again that's a small thing.

Hu Tao pocketed me in our last game and I'm a paranoid person so I'm struggling to get a read right now , that should go as the day progresses though hopefully. Slight scum pings, but again I feel like this might just be me being paranoid.

RCE and Flavor Leaf have me leaning town at the moment, but that's mainly a gut read combined with their posts seemed to be attempting to progress a kinda slow game.

[Thomith]

In fact...

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Dunnstral

I want to do this for now.

[Thomith]

VOTE: Flavor Leaf Bad arguments

Why are they bad?

[Thomith]

I mean I guess he could do it as scum, but his start to this game seemed pretty much identical to that town game (both with the statement to gather reactions that i mentioned, and the following posts), which is why I had a light town read for now.

In that same game, Kyouko seemed much more engaged early on than she is currently, but tbh that could just be because she is busy or something, so NAI for now, but will be interested in her first few content posts to help me make a choice there.

Dunn is pinging me because of how he questioned Hu Tao's lack of a vote, but not gobs, and also not voting himself, but again that's a small thing.

Hu Tao pocketed me in our last game and I'm a paranoid person so I'm struggling to get a read right now , that should go as the day progresses though hopefully. Slight scum pings, but again I feel like this might just be me being paranoid.

RCE and Flavor Leaf have me leaning town at the moment, but that's mainly a gut read combined with their posts seemed to be attempting to progress a kinda slow game.

After I said nothing with tr for I said scum likely wouldn't do that

You said in 95 that you also thought I was town, but made it sound like nothing I had really done was town indicative in 81, so I wanted to know what changed for you in 14 posts.

VOTE: Flavor Leaf Bad arguments

Why are they bad?

Flavor admitted the arguments were bad

Hu Tao could definitely be wolfing here.

I could be. But why?

PoE + obvious

Not a defense. Also didn't you do this exact same thing as scum? The response?

are u distancing from your buddy this early?

Do you actually think Hu Tao/Gob are buddies, if so why?

[Thomith]

Do you actually think Hu Tao/Gob are buddies, if so why?

I was jesting.

Thought you probably were, but just wanted to double check if I missed something.

[Thomith]

My only reads still are rce and Thom town. Anyone have any strong scumread so far?

Hu Tao, FL, Dunn, gob. Not necessarily in that order.

I can kind of tell why you suspect Dunn from your ISO, but why do you scumread Hu Tao, FL and gob?

[Thomith]

Could you maybe not try and get yourself Limmed?

[Thomith]

I don't see the benefit of Limming you when you're one of my town reads at this point, and we still have time to get more information.

[Thomith]

Gotta get rid of Bingle here

Then why are you voting FL instead of Bingle?

[Thomith]

VOTE: Gob

We can speed lim this if we form a mob

Why are we speed limming with over a week before the deadline?

[Thomith]

Could you maybe not try and get yourself Limmed?

Dig deeper

There are two outcomes here if you don't get yourself limmed

1) you're town - we can work together to try and find the sneaky Mafia and win. Yay!

2) you're Mafia - you get to pocket me and then see a grown man cry post game for trusting someone he shouldn't on the internet, oh no!

Either way it's a win win!

[Thomith]

At the moment my scumpings are Dunn, because of focusing on the Hu Tao slot for not voting, but not voting himself, and not questioning gob. Since that post I also haven't seen much to make me feel any better about this slot. This is my biggest scumread right now.

Naerys as a slight scum ping, because while they do usually post shorter posts (which is fine, and NAI), they seem to be lacking more in content that I remember them being in the last game I was in with her.

Gob has pinged me as weird over the last few pages, not necessarily a scum ping, but my confidence of him being town has definitely decreased. It just feels like he has been saying one thing but doing another?

Kyouko, as I mentioned seems less engaged than i remember her being as town, but again this could just be due to her being busy, but as I said before I'm definitely going to be interested in how their first few content posts come across.

Bingle I feel weird about, but that's more me not knowing how to read them yet than a scum ping.

This is all off the top of my head, so when I'm on my PC and can reread tonight I'll add more here if I feel like I missed something.

[Thomith]

Mmk I’d like to not make this an fl focused game, let’s make it a THOMITH focused game.

I’m on the verge of townreading roden as well.

Thomith who’s scumpinging you so far?

As a sidenote early game I feel like I'm more confident in my town reads than my scum reads, and try and POE day 1 that way usually.

[Thomith]

Flavor went from calling themselves scum to calling themselves confirmed town.

Not buying that. Also thomith reads are all fence sitty

Where did FL call themselves scum? Where did they call themselves confirmed town?

[Thomith]

I did and I actually don't see where they called themselves scum or confirmed town.

[Thomith]

The only thing I see is they said this, but that isn't them saying they're confirmed town (although I guess I could see it maybe looking that way at a glance?)

Fade me,

Vig’s on Gob, Cop on Cakez, other investigatives play wherever

Why are you encouraging the vig to shoot me?

Cuz they should, especially after my role is confirmed green

I don't see anything about them claiming they're scum though

[Thomith]

The only thing I see is they said this, but that isn't them saying they're confirmed town (although I guess I could see it maybe looking that way at a glance?)

Fade me,

Vig’s on Gob, Cop on Cakez, other investigatives play wherever

Why are you encouraging the vig to shoot me?

Cuz they should, especially after my role is confirmed green

I don't see anything about them claiming they're scum though

178 was what i was thinking of. Not a claim but it does seem scummy

It's definitely open to being very WIFOMy I'll give you that.
I kind of don't think scum would do that, because it opens them up to people being like "fuck it, sure", which is a risk for day 1, but am aware I could be being influenced by my town read of FL here.

[Thomith]

Hi.

Zoobooks are so cute

Where's your vote?

Why did you ask Hu Tao where their vote was but not gob, who also didn't vote?

I did not notice.

Fair enough.

You didn't vote either though.

If you want a more solid answer, this back and forth with Dunn is a town process.

Holding Dunn accountable for applying the same standard across multiple slots is a lot more likely to come from town trying to discern the intention behind an action than scum. Could scum fake it? Maybe I guess, it would probably feel more pointed however.

Bingle is more a vibe read for being willing to play into my bs. I like that kind of thing.

Instead of just shrugging me off and going, wow that scummy behavior is pretty scummy.

Since that’s kinda the point.

Speaking of I have some detrimental posting to get back to.

I agree with this. Both of you town (RCE and Thom) so far in my eyes

What changed? I thought there was nothing worth a townread?

RCE is conf town in my eyes

Can you expand as to why, or is it mainly a soul read?

I’ve played with Gob as scum, and this doesn’t seem like his style—I don’t think anything so far is scum-indicative for me. Slight townread there for now.

Do you see anything town indicative?

So basically, I’m countering your meta read with my meta read.

Your read is valid, but for now, I’m happy pushing Gob.

I am noting your meta defense, though. I could be wrong.

I want to chime in here a little. I've recently played with Gob as town (granted he was part of a hydra), and immediately, he did something in this game that he also did at the start of that game, where he randomly labelled half the players as probably town with a vague reason to get reactions.
I noticed he did the same thing here, which is why I didn't comment on it here, because I also wanted to observe it to see how people reacted.

Sounds like you're scared of gob

Why does it sound like I'm scared of gob?

[Thomith]

Where's your vote?

Why did you ask Hu Tao where their vote was but not gob, who also didn't vote?

I did not notice.

Fair enough.

You didn't vote either though.

If you want a more solid answer, this back and forth with Dunn is a town process.

Holding Dunn accountable for applying the same standard across multiple slots is a lot more likely to come from town trying to discern the intention behind an action than scum. Could scum fake it? Maybe I guess, it would probably feel more pointed however.

Bingle is more a vibe read for being willing to play into my bs. I like that kind of thing.

Instead of just shrugging me off and going, wow that scummy behavior is pretty scummy.

Since that’s kinda the point.

Speaking of I have some detrimental posting to get back to.

I agree with this. Both of you town (RCE and Thom) so far in my eyes

What changed? I thought there was nothing worth a townread?

RCE is conf town in my eyes

Can you expand as to why, or is it mainly a soul read?

I’ve played with Gob as scum, and this doesn’t seem like his style—I don’t think anything so far is scum-indicative for me. Slight townread there for now.

Do you see anything town indicative?

So basically, I’m countering your meta read with my meta read.

Your read is valid, but for now, I’m happy pushing Gob.

I am noting your meta defense, though. I could be wrong.

I want to chime in here a little. I've recently played with Gob as town (granted he was part of a hydra), and immediately, he did something in this game that he also did at the start of that game, where he randomly labelled half the players as probably town with a vague reason to get reactions.
I noticed he did the same thing here, which is why I didn't comment on it here, because I also wanted to observe it to see how people reacted.

Sounds like you're scared of gob

Why does it sound like I'm scared of gob?

Are you afraid of me?

No.

[Thomith]

Do you scumread both me and AWiz?

[Thomith]

VOTE: AnimatedWiz

Why?

[Thomith]

VOTE: AnimatedWiz

Why?

is that ur partner or somethin?

I'm just asking the reason for a naked vote.

[Thomith]

I think this is where I'm at right now:

FL - Seemed to try and get the game moving when it was slow early on. Early gut townread.
RCE - Bold statement trusting people early on that I agree with Hu Tao, I'm not convinced scum would do that early.

Hu tao - feels different to me than last game i played with them, where they were scum, which makes me kind of want to townread, but not confidently
gob - my brain is telling me that gob is being weird, but my gut is still telling me he's town, so I'm still conflicted here.

Bingle - struggling to read properly, but they haven't done anything inherently scum indicative
Roden - a lot of short posts that also read as quite fluffy to me. I also didn't really like the quicklim comment, which I'll wait for an explanation about before I decide here.
Wiz - I was leaning town on him, but Kyouko has kind of begun convincing me I may have been wrong about this.

Cele - Their catchup seemed to be echoing others points/points that were already made, but I guess that could be genuine as there probably aren't a lot of points left unmade yet.
Kyouko - mostly gut, mainly because again, to me her play just feels different than I remember it being?
Naerys - I still think could be scum, but I could be convinced to give her the benefit of the doubt and see if my perception changes on Day 2, to see if they are just weak on Day 1 like she claims.

Dunn - I've mentioned my suspicions on him already - i dislike not holding every slot to the same standards, while also doing (or in this case not doing) what he was questioning other slots about.

Not enough info:
Sircakez

[Thomith]

I think Bingle and Gob have more partner equity than Roden and Gob for sure.

I do think Roden bringing up fake distancing is a stretch if Scum/Scum, and would require the two of them to be working well together. I doubt they’d have found their footing this fast in this game as partners.

[Thomith]

I love accidentally posting.

What I was going to say to that quote was do you think those two specifically wouldn't have found their footing in the game as partners yet, or that scum partners generally likely would not have found their footing yet?

[Thomith]

Does anyone else feel like they have really solid reads on a couple people but absolutely shit to work with for the majority of the class, or is it just me?

Hello. I also only feel confident on like 3 or 4 of my reads.

You are one of the people I have no clue how to read at all

[Thomith]

gob bad, FL bad, bingle why do you take gob at face value that cakez is slanking, thomith good

Could you explain how you went from gob good to gob bad, and from me bad to me good, because I'm struggling to follow the progression?

[Thomith]

wassup
VOTE: gob

v busy today but starting tomorrow I'll have a lot of free time to get in here

Why is anyone even talking about Cakez? Like I read his name a couple of times in my catchup and there's no reason to be talking about this guy

FL has a gut read I think is the depth of that conversation.

[Thomith]

Gotcha, didn't realise you were speaking about people talking about Cakez specifically, I understand now.

[Thomith]

Ummmm. I'm not sure what to think here

About anything specific, or the game generally?

[Thomith]

@Mod: I'll be V/LA between 15th - 18th December

Should be able to at least follow along, but may not be able to post as frequently.

[Thomith]

Ummmm. I'm not sure what to think here

Potentially towny post

Why is this a townie post?

[Thomith]

Solid town: Thomith - solves, his analysis feels logical and well thought
Maybe town: Flavor - he is aloof, but observing
Bingle -laid back at the beginning, but later he feels like he is trying to sort people

Null: Gob - unreadable pink fluff filled with pink fluff
Plus bunch of people that need to post more -Hu, SirCakez, Cele

Scumlean: Roden - doesnt do much, just some empty sentences
Kyou: Slightly better than Roden, might replace some lurkers in the null reads tbh, i feel like scum is trying to stay in the shadows at this moment

Second scum detected.

This game might be easy.

Why does this post make Naerys scum?

[Thomith]

I got ninja'd you kind of already answered.

[Thomith]

okay so some games I don't know who to vote and get stuck
this is not one of them lmaoo
I want to yeet like half this player list rn
however I think the best person to get out of here ASAP day one is flavor leaf, bc dude is posting like scum and even if he's town he's already making me think he's going to self implode this game so might as well get it over with now

Who is the half of the player list you want to yeet?
Why do you want to yeet them?

[Thomith]

I’m tinfoiling a Kyouku, Cakez, Hu Tao team right now.

I disagree on Hu Tao.

I could potentially see the other two.

[Thomith]

I think this is where I'm at right now:

FL - Seemed to try and get the game moving when it was slow early on. Early gut townread.
RCE - Bold statement trusting people early on that I agree with Hu Tao, I'm not convinced scum would do that early.

Hu tao - feels different to me than last game i played with them, where they were scum, which makes me kind of want to townread, but not confidently
gob - my brain is telling me that gob is being weird, but my gut is still telling me he's town, so I'm still conflicted here.

Bingle - struggling to read properly, but they haven't done anything inherently scum indicative
Roden - a lot of short posts that also read as quite fluffy to me. I also didn't really like the quicklim comment, which I'll wait for an explanation about before I decide here.
Wiz - I was leaning town on him, but Kyouko has kind of begun convincing me I may have been wrong about this.

Cele - Their catchup seemed to be echoing others points/points that were already made, but I guess that could be genuine as there probably aren't a lot of points left unmade yet.
Kyouko - mostly gut, mainly because again, to me her play just feels different than I remember it being?
Naerys - I still think could be scum, but I could be convinced to give her the benefit of the doubt and see if my perception changes on Day 2, to see if they are just weak on Day 1 like she claims.

Dunn - I've mentioned my suspicions on him already - i dislike not holding every slot to the same standards, while also doing (or in this case not doing) what he was questioning other slots about.

Not enough info:
Sircakez

this reads list is pretty bad
every read has basically a cop out scenario like there's no conviction behind it at all

Sure, I admit that is true because I'm not confident on my reads yet, so this list almost definitely changes as times go on.
I'm not going to lie and claim I definitely think people are town/scum because I'm not yet.

You said later on that you want to fade half the player list, insinuating that you find them scummy, but then don't even state who those players are. How is that any different/better?

[Thomith]

I’m tinfoiling a Kyouku, Cakez, Hu Tao team right now.

I disagree on Hu Tao.

I could potentially see the other two.

That’s why i said Hu Tao would be deep wolf in another post

I saw.

The only reason I primarily disagree is because Hu Tao was trying to deep wolf in the last Micro, and I feel like they are playing much differently here.
I'll reread them though to make sure I'm not tunneling on a town read just because they feel different though.

[Thomith]

Gob/Hu Tao/Naerys/Kyouko/Thomith

I think this contains exactly two scum

Why exactly 2 scum?

[Thomith]

I’m tinfoiling a Kyouku, Cakez, Hu Tao team right now.

I disagree on Hu Tao.

I could potentially see the other two.

That’s why i said Hu Tao would be deep wolf in another post

I saw.

The only reason I primarily disagree is because Hu Tao was trying to deep wolf in the last Micro, and I feel like they are playing much differently here.
I'll reread them though to make sure I'm not tunneling on a town read just because they feel different though.

Well, did it work there?

Good Point.

No it didn't, but only because they ended up getting caught out due to us being able to clear bigger suspects later into the game day.

[Thomith]

I think this is where I'm at right now:

FL - Seemed to try and get the game moving when it was slow early on. Early gut townread.
RCE - Bold statement trusting people early on that I agree with Hu Tao, I'm not convinced scum would do that early.

Hu tao - feels different to me than last game i played with them, where they were scum, which makes me kind of want to townread, but not confidently
gob - my brain is telling me that gob is being weird, but my gut is still telling me he's town, so I'm still conflicted here.

Bingle - struggling to read properly, but they haven't done anything inherently scum indicative
Roden - a lot of short posts that also read as quite fluffy to me. I also didn't really like the quicklim comment, which I'll wait for an explanation about before I decide here.
Wiz - I was leaning town on him, but Kyouko has kind of begun convincing me I may have been wrong about this.

Cele - Their catchup seemed to be echoing others points/points that were already made, but I guess that could be genuine as there probably aren't a lot of points left unmade yet.
Kyouko - mostly gut, mainly because again, to me her play just feels different than I remember it being?
Naerys - I still think could be scum, but I could be convinced to give her the benefit of the doubt and see if my perception changes on Day 2, to see if they are just weak on Day 1 like she claims.

Dunn - I've mentioned my suspicions on him already - i dislike not holding every slot to the same standards, while also doing (or in this case not doing) what he was questioning other slots about.

Not enough info:
Sircakez

this reads list is pretty bad
every read has basically a cop out scenario like there's no conviction behind it at all

Sure, I admit that is true because I'm not confident on my reads yet, so this list almost definitely changes as times go on.
I'm not going to lie and claim I definitely think people are town/scum because I'm not yet.

You said later on that you want to fade half the player list, insinuating that you find them scummy, but then don't even state who those players are. How is that any different/better?

Okay so you should understand why that looks suspicious from the outside.
The reason I didn't write it out last night was because I wanted to see how FL was going to react and he predictably immediately declared me scum and spent six posts attacking me. I don't see the connection between that and your wishy washy reads list at all so this looks like a deflective tactic.

You not stating your "yeet" list to me also felt like a cop out scenario, as you can just feasibly change this list on the fly later on, without proof of if it ever changed or not.
However, from your explanation, I do concede that this "list" was kind of dispersed throughout your other posts.

[Thomith]

I think I'm overreacting. Sorry FL for accusing you of misspelling my name on purpose, I see you were using ssbm before and probably were trying to correct for that so thanks. I dont mind being called ssbm I just prefer Kyouko. I don't like being intentionally called they and would prefer you use she instead, but I see you use they for a lot of people so I don't think you're doing that on purpose.

The only legitimate gripe I have with FL upon rereading him is here.

Too ready to overexplain town!gob

Care to share your own thoughts on gob, then?

I would think a lack of detail more suspicious than an overabundance of it personally, and you haven’t stated much on the matter.

I don't get scumpings from him so I'm not too focused on what he's posting. I've noticed he seems to like to do shit just to do it, even when he doesnt believe in it, like for reactions, so I'm predisposed to do this to him and focus more on associations

so basically you got a basic nothing read and overdefending, and trying to start up new wagons, got it and noted.

Just reductive to call it a nothing read, and inaccurate to say I'm overdefending, because at the time I had gob as null. And yes I do prefer to push my own wagons, especially on D1, as a rule.

So this got me to thinking FL is trying to push me aside and so I'm suspicious as to why he would be doing that, probably because he's scum is all that makes sense. Then I read further and he's like, taunting gob, which felt mean to do regardless of both of their alignments and that just further reinforced this idea I had of Flavor.

So when I saw name misspellings I thought they were on purpose because I think you're over the line already

I have noticed that FL has been misspelling my name as well, so I genuinely don't think it's anything targeted or personal, but can see how it may feel that way since they have been pushing you as well.

[Thomith]

Let's try and get some pressure moving then.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: SirCakez

[Thomith]

This game is stalling out which means mafia are in control or not really active.

This is what I'm concerned about.

The game stalling before earlier on in the day just felt like a slow game, this time it feels weird? I don't know how to explain it but something feels off.

[Thomith]

Two of my stronger townreads seem to be on Cakez though which make me feel okay I think?

[Thomith]

It doesn't hold up - thought scum!gob only addressed townies by their name when talking to them directly, but it seems in large 245 he addresses Flavor (scumbuddies in that game) by name

Flavor was a traitor that game. Gob may not have know they were buddies?

It feels like a stretch either way though.

[Thomith]

I'm also open to meta arguments on most people in this game, I don't know many of these players well so if someone can bring good meta to the table I'm interested

im BARFING at this post

Someone tel me if this is town sircakez tho

What kind of thought process is this

Is this you saying you think its a scummy thought process? Why?

[Thomith]

Ahh ftr I’d sheep FL today even if I thought he was scum. I think he’s at least aware of that.

This is a weird af post

[Thomith]

It is, I’d have to explain the rationale behind it for it to make sense, but then it loses value so.

Is this something you think you'd be able to explain tomorrow if we're both still alive?

[Thomith]

Pretty sure that's E-2 as a heads up.

[Thomith]

VOTE: gob

Fine by me. I’ll take the benefit for my meta here since nobody is playing how i want them to anyway.

What do you mean by nobody is playing how you want them to?

[Thomith]

Can we hold to give me a second to reread this all and catch my bearings because this whole push has felt super fucking weird to me.

[Thomith]

Thomith/Hu Tao/Gob is possible.

Thomith/Hu Tao has partner equity.

I've liked Thomith's play, but if Gob or Hu Tao ever flip scum, their ISO looks partnery.

Can you explain why?

[Thomith]

Gob I understand how that would look bad on me if they flip scum.

I disagree that I haven't explained my Hu Tao Town Read, I feel like I have - I have a complete different feel from them than the last Micro where they were Scum.
I do understand the Hu Tao randomly putting me on a "Town Pedestal" - I don't understand why you don't mentioned the possibility of Me/Naerys though, since I feel like she has done a similar thing.

[Thomith]

VOTE: RCenigma

If Gob flips scum I feel like SirCakez is likely town for this vote - there doesn't seem to be any momentum in a RCE counterwagon, and the gob wagon was gaining speed. I feel like if Gob/SirCakez are partners, that it makes more sense for him to a) bus, or b) try and jump on or make a counterwagon that might grow, rather than a random vote.

If i die shoot cakez btw vigi

Secondly, if gob does flip scum, following Kyouko's train of logic, I feel like this could be gob playing into this to try and make Cakez look bad.

I... hm. I sort of follow this theory, and I'd also like to add that, uh, if we keep gob around, we may have the issue of having to constantly choose between him and other wagons due to how he plays—if we keep him around and he's town, the scumteam is likely to just push him to try to get a miselim later on. I'd rather enter LimLo with more players I feel confident in my townreads on to avoid that risk. I, uh, am unsure if this is the definitely

correct

option, but it would make sorting a lot easier, I think?

It's a little bit of a selfish reason, but VOTE: gob.

I dislike the jumping on the wagon with what seems like an over-explanation, and a lot of hedging (I'm unsure if this is the correct option, I sort of follow this theory), but still small statements that seem to be pushing along this wagon too (it would make sorting a lot easier, I'd rather enter LimLo with more players i confidently townread ect).

Can Kyouko and Dunn explain the AnimatedWiz votes bc I am possibly amenable to that wagon too but I need to here why u guys went there

It was pointed out that they may have been giving reads too easily. I decided I do not townread them and would be fine voting there.

What do you think of the gob wagon?

I’m a fan of crackpot theories. I think it’s a little, in the weeds. But I like kyouko for it.

Kyouko how does it change your gob view if I’m town?

It kind of destroys the premise no?

No, because I'm not confident that he

always

addresses town by name when he's scum. I am confident he

never*

addresses scumpartners by name, which means if a name was mentioned and gob flips scum, that name is clear.

You would be, in my eyes, the most likely of the pool of 5 to flip scum though because he did address you and didn't use your name. I'm being bold in assuming you would be scum off of that, but I think the townclears would be solid and we'd be looking for 2 scum in 5 players if gob flips scum

*Except that one time he addressed Traitor!FL by name, but even then before he was positive FL was a traitor he capitalized his name, afterward it got more casual with lowercase "flavor"

This feels more similar to the Kyouko that I remember. This makes me feel a lot better about her.

Solid town: Thomith - solves, his analysis feels logical and well thought
Maybe town: Flavor - he is aloof, but observing
Bingle -laid back at the beginning, but later he feels like he is trying to sort people

Null: Gob - unreadable pink fluff filled with pink fluff
Plus bunch of people that need to post more -Hu, SirCakez, Cele

Scumlean: Roden - doesnt do much, just some empty sentences
Kyou: Slightly better than Roden, might replace some lurkers in the null reads tbh, i feel like scum is trying to stay in the shadows at this moment

Updating this: Thom still solid town. Flavor is being flavor and i dont really have reason to suspect him at this moment.
I would love some read list from Bingle- could you please share some, when u are up to it?

Cakez i dont know so he is harder to grasp. I may need more time to get a solid read on this slot. Null for now
Hu Tao - could you write a RL please?

Cele- 505 and 508 are giving me few towny vibes
Gob-isnt being much helpful, so he could be scum, he is just hard to read for me

AWiz- feels town
Roden-shifted towards null
Dunn- idk, suspicious absence
RCE-null
kyou-shoots straight into strong town from post 477 onwards, solid solving

Arguments against gob feel solid.

Possible scum team gob-dunn-rce? if gob is town vca will be interesting

VOTE: gob

The bolded is partnery, and extra explanations. Naerys also has a lot of fluffy questions and requests from players this game.

To confirm I understand, were you saying Naerys may be partners with the people bolded, or partners with gob?

[Thomith]

@Mod - i think Wiz voted Gob a couple pages ago.

gob (5): Bingle, Roden, ssbm_kyouko, AnimatedWiz, Naerys


there is scum here somewhere, which kinda sucks, because I town read all 5 of them at times. i just dont see zero scum being on Gob, even if Gob is scum.

Honestly, especially if Gob is scum.

If Gob is town, I almost think it's more likely no scum are on him.

Interested in the explanation of this, because I feel like I disagree.

[Thomith]

Why are we assuming that Scum weren't part of the reason for the heat on gob?

[Thomith]

@Mod: I'll be V/LA between 15th - 18th December

Should be able to at least follow along, but may not be able to post as frequently.

@Mod: Also just wanna make sure this has been acknowledged, sorry to be annoying.

[Thomith]

Why are we assuming that Scum weren't part of the reason for the heat on gob?

because I was the main heat on him, and I know im town.

I didn't really mean you.
At the same time, I don't really mean Kyouko either. I'm more talking about the subtle digs at gob that weren't the main pushes.

Minor things like this and this

More major things like this

Not going to go through the entire thread for everything right now, just wanted to give some examples of the kind of things I mean.

[Thomith]

A Gob flip might give us the most information no matter if he flips green or red right now if I think about it due to the last few pages.

[Thomith]

A Gob flip might give us the most information no matter if he flips green or red right now if I think about it due to the last few pages.

I will vote for whoever you vote for

What the fuck is going on

[Thomith]

I actually don't know how to react to that

Should gob claim now, if we are considering eliminating him?

[Thomith]

Has Gob claimed?

I don't think so

Tinfoil of Roden Hu Tao

Sounds like you're running out of tinfoil hats

[Thomith]

I was mostly joking

[Thomith]

In all seriousness, Bingle/Dunn have partner equity imo.

Why do you think they have partner equity?

[Thomith]

How come?

For Flavor Leaf I don't like the way they pushed yesterday and now today. For AnimatedWiz I get the sense that they are playing back and trying to blend in while asking others their thoughts while occasionally trying to steer things towards an elimination on people pushing them.

You don't like the fact that they are pushing or you don't like exactly how they are pushing?

[Thomith]

Interesting night kill?

What do you mean by this? Why was Kyouko an interesting night kill?

[Thomith]

I think I trust Hu Tao

Why?

[Thomith]

Thom who do you scumread the most today?

I still feel suspicious mostly of Dunnstral, As I've said before I suspected him early on, and I haven't really seen much to make me feel any better about him so far today.

[Thomith]

VOTE: Dunnstral

I'm a little confused that you are scumreading Hu Tao but then following where she is voting.

[Thomith]

I do not think that is good logic.

Why not?

[Thomith]

I'm going to go more into depth later, but just wanted to sort my thoughts out a bit.

Hu Tao

Flavor Leaf
RCEnigma
Roden

SirCakez
Bingle
AnimatedWiz

Naerys
Celebloki

Dunnstral

I think this is where my head is at for right now.

After yesterday I'm a little paranoid about FL and RCE but don't have a real reason/have no real evidence there, so I want to look over them again when I get the chance, to try and solidify the read I have on them because it's a lot more shaky than it was.

[Thomith]

VOTE: Dunn

E-2

[Thomith]

How about slowing down a bit? E-2 when we have like 8 days left?

Who are you scumreading?

[Thomith]

I genuinely don't think E-2 is that worrying but I'll do this since a few people are concerned about it, until everyone is caught up/has a say.
UNVOTE:

[Thomith]

VOTE: Celebloki

[Thomith]

I have someone else I want to put some pressure on, but I think I want to wait a bit for people to come in and react to the current things before I move on.

I’m open to a Dunn/Wiz town/town world.

Is it thomith? I bet it’s thomith. Hey everybody, if you vote thomith now you can accuse FL of sheeping you in the post game.

Did you think I should be pressured?

[Thomith]

I have someone else I want to put some pressure on, but I think I want to wait a bit for people to come in and react to the current things before I move on.

I’m open to a Dunn/Wiz town/town world.

Is it thomith? I bet it’s thomith. Hey everybody, if you vote thomith now you can accuse FL of sheeping you in the post game.

Did you think I should be pressured?

Yes. I have embarrassingly few reads and it feels like scum is leading town around by the nose here. Ime that means there’s scum in the “well they make sense so they’re town” pile, and you’re like… poster child for that pile.

I feel like I'm not one of the main people leading the game, so why do you think I make the most sense as being scum here when there are others doing more leading than I am, if you feel scum are "leading town around by the nose"?

[Thomith]

Hey, if wagoning me is what brings some spice back into this game, let's do it! This games gotten real bland. I'm not gonna vote for myself though, that's kinda cringe.

These fluff posts are what's making me really unsure about you.

[Thomith]

I feel like I'm not one of the main people leading the game, so why do you think I make the most sense as being scum here when there are others doing more leading than I am, if you feel scum are "leading town around by the nose"?

I feel like this is underselling your impact on the thread. And I’m not talking about leading onto lims so much as leading away from lims. My issue isn’t so much with where people HAVE been pushing as where people HAVEN’T been pushing.

I find it interesting that no one could/would make a case for Dunn scum when asked and I’ll probably dig there tonight.

Okay that makes a lot more sense. I do agree with this sentiment then, it just isn't what came across to me with your original post.

Go ahead, I'm down to be pressured, I just dont think I should be the only one you pressure based on your logic.

[Thomith]

People playing in the background this day phase: AnimatedWiz, Hu Tao, RCEnigma, SirCakez, Thomith

I dont feel like I'm playing in the background. Ik less active today for sure, but that's because I've been busy. I feel like when I have been contributing I have been putting myself out there, rather than only chiming in to defend myself or the like.
Is there anything specific you think I'm doing to "fade into the background" that I can respond to/understand why you think that?

You are going off the assumption that mafia are scrambling to try to save me and piling onto you. I'm not mafia so likely mafia are instead sitting back doing nothing, if you are town. I find Thomith's current position suspect, they apparently want to vote me out but are voting for you instead. AnimatedWiz's iso is 85% about me and 10% defending themself. I mean look at this:

Spoiler:

Hu Tao pops in every so often to say we should eliminate someone but gives no reasoning and then makes a filler post and leaves, and then 24 hours later comes back in and says we should eliminate the same person again with no new reasoning. SirCakez seems to be busy but is angling for you in their latest post - it's a bit of a mystery what they think about me. RCEnigma's last post is saying we need votes for pressure and they're the only player not voting. They have offered some talk of the wagon but not much else, including not giving a clear stance - they just call it 'interesting'.

I voted cele because of the random fluff posting midway through the day that pinged me, and haven't seen a reason to unvote since.

I am also aware that I may be tunelled on you, so am exploring other ideas.

[Thomith]

UNVOTE:

[Thomith]

I softed in my second post if anyone cares about that.

Just double checked and this does check out.
I think I'm inclined to believe this for now.

[Thomith]

I always tell myself when I roll PRs, I'm gonna refuse to claim them but I never do. I'm just gonna full claim it and my target.

I'm a Town Neapolitan. My N1 was a waste because I targeted Kyouko. Interestingly I got a 'No Result' response. I assume because she died.

I think you'd still get a result usually, even if you target someone who dies?

[Thomith]

I softed in my second post if anyone cares about that.

Just double checked and this does check out.
I think I'm inclined to believe this for now.

Top 2 scumreads?

Dunn and Naerys

[Thomith]

Why wouldn't you check Leaf?

Cuz they’re lying scum.

Why do you think they're lying?
I feel like the explanations post claim do kinda make sense?

[Thomith]

Why wouldn't you check Leaf?

Cuz they’re lying scum.

Scratch that, they’re probs a Scum Neap here lying about their target

I guess that technically could be possible too.

[Thomith]

Why wouldn't you check Leaf?

Cuz they’re lying scum.

Scratch that, they’re probs a Scum Neap here lying about their target

I guess that technically could be possible too.

Why would scum soft?

If celeb is actually a scum neap he could have decided no matter what he would claim that, so softed to get credibility if he had to claim?
I believe the neap claim, but I guess yeah, technically could be a scum one, but idk how common that is tbh.

[Thomith]

Why would I say I got a No Result on kyouko if I was lying about my claim though. I could just as easily say I got VT on her. I honestly didn't feel like my crumb was very well hidden and I regretted crumbing it. My best guess is scum have a roleblocker and saw my crumb and used it on me. Might as well flip me, they'll just keep role blocking me so I get no information.

I'm not too sure it makes sense to flip you just because of setup spec of Mafia potentially hand a role blocker that saw your soft, because I dont actually think it was that obvious personally. It's a potential, but there are other things that could explain it instead.

I'd rather keep celeb around for now I think, to see what happens in future nights?

[Thomith]

Kyouko is just such a weird target when we had an actual VT claim that no one really disputed should be investigated

Yeah, the inconsistencies are there in celeb. They stalled for the claim, but couldn’t much longer.

They also had to be a N1 Roleblock target on top of it.

The roleblock feels like a weird thing to fake though, when it would just make the claim less believable?

[Thomith]

Why would I say I got a No Result on kyouko if I was lying about my claim though. I could just as easily say I got VT on her. I honestly didn't feel like my crumb was very well hidden and I regretted crumbing it. My best guess is scum have a roleblocker and saw my crumb and used it on me. Might as well flip me, they'll just keep role blocking me so I get no information.

I'm not too sure it makes sense to flip you just because of setup spec of Mafia potentially hand a role blocker that saw your soft, because I dont actually think it was that obvious personally. It's a potential, but there are other things that could explain it instead.

I'd rather keep celeb around for now I think, to see what happens in future nights?

This is a Simple set up, so only Roleblocker and Jailkeeper could have messed with his action. The results he claimed don't match up with the wiki though because he should've been blatantly told that his action failed.

Isn't a No Result him being told his action failed though?

[Thomith]

Kyouko is just such a weird target when we had an actual VT claim that no one really disputed should be investigated

Yeah, the inconsistencies are there in celeb. They stalled for the claim, but couldn’t much longer.

They also had to be a N1 Roleblock target on top of it.

The roleblock feels like a weird thing to fake though, when it would just make the claim less believable?

It’s a stronger claim with it. Why would Celebloki of all players here be roleblocked N1 and then just happen to get pushed here today?

Why did it take that long to get to the claim?

They spent the time with a scum partner crafting the claim.

I believe him when he says he got no result.

[Thomith]

It feels like such a weird thing to lie about though?

[Thomith]

It feels like such a weird thing to lie about though?

It is, but I've seen scum do this before. I think it's just a botched claim.

I believe the no result claim. He could be scum neap, which isn't something I considered until FL pointed it out, but yeah.

[Thomith]

People playing in the background this day phase: AnimatedWiz, Hu Tao, RCEnigma, SirCakez, Thomith

I dont feel like I'm playing in the background. Ik less active today for sure, but that's because I've been busy. I feel like when I have been contributing I have been putting myself out there, rather than only chiming in to defend myself or the like.
Is there anything specific you think I'm doing to "fade into the background" that I can respond to/understand why you think that?

You are going off the assumption that mafia are scrambling to try to save me and piling onto you. I'm not mafia so likely mafia are instead sitting back doing nothing, if you are town. I find Thomith's current position suspect, they apparently want to vote me out but are voting for you instead. AnimatedWiz's iso is 85% about me and 10% defending themself. I mean look at this:

Spoiler:

Hu Tao pops in every so often to say we should eliminate someone but gives no reasoning and then makes a filler post and leaves, and then 24 hours later comes back in and says we should eliminate the same person again with no new reasoning. SirCakez seems to be busy but is angling for you in their latest post - it's a bit of a mystery what they think about me. RCEnigma's last post is saying we need votes for pressure and they're the only player not voting. They have offered some talk of the wagon but not much else, including not giving a clear stance - they just call it 'interesting'.

I voted cele because of the random fluff posting midway through the day that pinged me, and haven't seen a reason to unvote since.

I am also aware that I may be tunelled on you, so am exploring other ideas.

Most of your posts today have been asking other players questions without it being clear what you are getting from it, and lazily continuing your push on me.

Spoiler:

In all seriousness, Bingle/Dunn have partner equity imo.

Why do you think they have partner equity?

How come?

For Flavor Leaf I don't like the way they pushed yesterday and now today. For AnimatedWiz I get the sense that they are playing back and trying to blend in while asking others their thoughts while occasionally trying to steer things towards an elimination on people pushing them.

You don't like the fact that they are pushing or you don't like exactly how they are pushing?

Interesting night kill?

What do you mean by this? Why was Kyouko an interesting night kill?

I think I trust Hu Tao

Why?

Thom who do you scumread the most today?

I still feel suspicious mostly of Dunnstral, As I've said before I suspected him early on, and I haven't really seen much to make me feel any better about him so far today.

I do not think that is good logic.

Why not?

VOTE: Dunn

E-2

How about slowing down a bit? E-2 when we have like 8 days left?

Who are you scumreading?

I have someone else I want to put some pressure on, but I think I want to wait a bit for people to come in and react to the current things before I move on.

I’m open to a Dunn/Wiz town/town world.

Is it thomith? I bet it’s thomith. Hey everybody, if you vote thomith now you can accuse FL of sheeping you in the post game.

Did you think I should be pressured?

I have someone else I want to put some pressure on, but I think I want to wait a bit for people to come in and react to the current things before I move on.

I’m open to a Dunn/Wiz town/town world.

Is it thomith? I bet it’s thomith. Hey everybody, if you vote thomith now you can accuse FL of sheeping you in the post game.

Did you think I should be pressured?

Yes. I have embarrassingly few reads and it feels like scum is leading town around by the nose here. Ime that means there’s scum in the “well they make sense so they’re town” pile, and you’re like… poster child for that pile.

I feel like I'm not one of the main people leading the game, so why do you think I make the most sense as being scum here when there are others doing more leading than I am, if you feel scum are "leading town around by the nose"?

My questions are made in attempt to get people to elaborate on otherwise under explained statements, in attempt to understand peoples reasoning, or potentially finding contradictions or slip ups by ensuring people do explain everything they are saying, and are not just getting by on saying generic statements without expanding.

[Thomith]

It feels like such a weird thing to lie about though?

It is, but I've seen scum do this before. I think it's just a botched claim.

I believe the no result claim. He could be scum neap, which isn't something I considered until FL pointed it out, but yeah.

Then town blocked them and would be able to confirm that, but i don’t think anyone else should claim this day phase.

It’s the target that is poor more than the No Result for me.

They can’t fake a result on anyone else other than me with the Neap claim, and if they claimed to investigate me, they’d have confirmed me as town.

True.

I do agree that the target of Kyouko was a little weird, but celeb saying he was trying to find a town core may kind of make this make sense?

[Thomith]

Why would I say I got a No Result on kyouko if I was lying about my claim though. I could just as easily say I got VT on her. I honestly didn't feel like my crumb was very well hidden and I regretted crumbing it. My best guess is scum have a roleblocker and saw my crumb and used it on me. Might as well flip me, they'll just keep role blocking me so I get no information.

I'm not too sure it makes sense to flip you just because of setup spec of Mafia potentially hand a role blocker that saw your soft, because I dont actually think it was that obvious personally. It's a potential, but there are other things that could explain it instead.

I'd rather keep celeb around for now I think, to see what happens in future nights?

This is a Simple set up, so only Roleblocker and Jailkeeper could have messed with his action. The results he claimed don't match up with the wiki though because he should've been blatantly told that his action failed.

What is wrong with the claim of no result? Is that not when you get when you are blocked?

I always tell myself when I roll PRs, I'm gonna refuse to claim them but I never do. I'm just gonna full claim it and my target.

I'm a Town Neapolitan. My N1 was a waste because I targeted Kyouko. Interestingly I got a 'No Result' response. I assume because she died.

A Vanilla Townie will return a result of "target is a Vanilla Townie"; other players will give a result of "target is not a Vanilla Townie". If the action fails (e.g. due to a roleblocker), the result will be "Your action failed, and you did not receive a result".

Yeah, this might actually be a technical scum slip by Celebloki too.


So I should know this, but it’s still new with these tags, Simple labeled games DO NOT give No Result to a roleblocked.

This is specifically different in Simple games is what’s being said?

Every other queue it would have been ‘No Result’

Where does it say that Simple Games have to clarify that an action failed?

[Thomith]

Thomith, you are in a Hu Tao pocket.

Look at how you react to this situation compared to how Hu Tao is.

You are questioning everything.

Hu Tao is not, even though pages before they were talking about them being able to see it as scum.

I believe Celebloki is getting advice from Hu Tao in the scum PT.

I'll be real, I feel like I'm in a situation right now where either you have me pocketed or Hu tao has me pocketed so I'm not sure what to do right now if I'm being honest.

[Thomith]

I softed in my second post if anyone cares about that.

Just double checked and this does check out.
I think I'm inclined to believe this for now.

Top 2 scumreads?

Dunn and Naerys

We are besties this game

Posts like this honestly have me so unsure how to react to them.

[Thomith]

Why would I say I got a No Result on kyouko if I was lying about my claim though. I could just as easily say I got VT on her. I honestly didn't feel like my crumb was very well hidden and I regretted crumbing it. My best guess is scum have a roleblocker and saw my crumb and used it on me. Might as well flip me, they'll just keep role blocking me so I get no information.

I'm not too sure it makes sense to flip you just because of setup spec of Mafia potentially hand a role blocker that saw your soft, because I dont actually think it was that obvious personally. It's a potential, but there are other things that could explain it instead.

I'd rather keep celeb around for now I think, to see what happens in future nights?

This is a Simple set up, so only Roleblocker and Jailkeeper could have messed with his action. The results he claimed don't match up with the wiki though because he should've been blatantly told that his action failed.

What is wrong with the claim of no result? Is that not when you get when you are blocked?

I always tell myself when I roll PRs, I'm gonna refuse to claim them but I never do. I'm just gonna full claim it and my target.

I'm a Town Neapolitan. My N1 was a waste because I targeted Kyouko. Interestingly I got a 'No Result' response. I assume because she died.

A Vanilla Townie will return a result of "target is a Vanilla Townie"; other players will give a result of "target is not a Vanilla Townie". If the action fails (e.g. due to a roleblocker), the result will be "Your action failed, and you did not receive a result".

Yeah, this might actually be a technical scum slip by Celebloki too.


So I should know this, but it’s still new with these tags, Simple labeled games DO NOT give No Result to a roleblocked.

This is specifically different in Simple games is what’s being said?

Every other queue it would have been ‘No Result’

Where does it say that Simple Games have to clarify that an action failed?

It says how it behaves in normal versions on the Neapolitan page.

It says the following:

Normal version

This role is allowed in Simple Normal games.

A Neapolitan investigates a player to determine whether or not they are a Vanilla Townie. A Vanilla Townie will return a result of "target is a Vanilla Townie"; other players will give a result of "target is not a Vanilla Townie". If the action fails (e.g. due to a roleblocker), the result will be "Your action failed, and you did not receive a result".

However, it's worth noting that the sample role pm does not mention this at all, this is presumably what caused either Celebloki or potentially even the mods to slip up here:

Example (simplest form)

Welcome to game! You are a

Town Neapolitan.

You have the following active ability:

Each Night, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, you will learn whether or not that player is a Vanilla Townie.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

The Simple Normal page does not mention that roleblocks behave as shown in the top.

The Roleblocker page agrees with the Neapolitan page.

The page says the following:

The blocked player will not normally be told that they have been blocked (unless they used an investigative role and thus were expecting a results PM, in which case the moderator will let them know that their action failed). The blocked player will never receive misleading results, e.g. a blocked Tracker will get a result like "Your action failed, and you did not receive a result", and never something like "Your target went nowhere".

The Jailkeeper page

says the opposite

, and for this reason I believe this could have been confusion on what the correct course of action is, rather than Celebloki lying.

The page says the following:

Normal version

This role is allowed in Simple Normal games.

A Jailkeeper that simultaneously blocks and protects their target is considered Normal on mafiascum.net, provided that any mutual blocking scenarios are planned for during review. Any role that receives results (such as Tracker or Watcher) but is blocked as a result of being targeted by a Jailkeeper should receive a "no result" message, rather than told their target didn't go anywhere or nobody visited their target. A Jailkeeper cannot stop a Juggernaut from committing a kill (regardless of who they target), and does not prevent other players from targeting their target with non-killing actions (e.g. if a Watcher and Jailkeeper target the same player, the Watcher will see the Jailkeeper's action).

Highlighting the relevant text above:

Any role that receives results (such as Tracker or Watcher) but is blocked as a result of being targeted by a Jailkeeper should receive a "no result" message, rather than told their target didn't go anywhere or nobody visited their target.

Thus, if the moderator looked to the Jailkeeper page, rather than the Neapolitan page, when determining what message to send out, a message of "no result", while perhaps somebodies mistake, does not seem to be our game mods mistake, and a jailkeeper targeting Celebloki would allow for Celebloki to be telling the truth without any error, despite what the page for Neapoilitan says should happen.

I rest my case.

This makes a lot of sense, and makes me believe the no result claim more.
Again I guess theres still a world where its scum neap?

[Thomith]

Oh, it's Wiz, Hu Tao, and RCEnigma.

Why do you think this specifically is the solve?

[Thomith]

A strong town PR shouldn't be intentionally trying to get themself voted out and then inform the scum team that they were correct in blocking them...

Are you still convinced this is what's happened here?

[Thomith]

I'll tell you one thing, I'm never gonna try and play differently to get a boring game exciting again. I'll just stick to the low volume posts that I'm used to.

At this point we kinda need you to do something other than bemoan your fate. Not trying to be rude, but you told us that you boosted your own wagon to try to weed out scum. There's plenty of content to look at if that truly was your intent.

This is true though.
Celebloki who do you think the scum on your wagon (if any) could have been

[Thomith]

If we flip Celeb today, and he does flip as a town PR as they claim, we need to heavily look into the people hard pushing him post claim, as I feel like there is at least one scum, if not more, trying to hard push a strong PR claim out, pushing the narrative that he is lying, despite there being legitimate and not even unlikely scenarios that he is telling the truth.

I still am not sure if it is even a good idea to flip a claimed town PR though.

[Thomith]

At the very least I think Rolecopping Celebloki could clear up if the claimed role is real.

Obviously it doesn't necessarily confirm Town/Scum, but if he is lying about his role, it at least pretty much confirms a scum. I think the information from it either way does give us some confirmed information we can potentially use, rather than rolecopping somebody else.

[Thomith]

I think one of the main concerns right now is if the Neap claim is real, so clearing that up could be useful.

[Thomith]

I would definitely prefer to not be the wagon today for obvious reasons, but I really don’t understand the push for me.

Anyway, I’m not going to just sit around and die.

I’m the

Town Role Cop

, and Hu Tao is a vanilla role. Part of the reason I’m pushing Celebloki is due to doubt about there being two Town investigative roles—does that explain my push on them better?

Oh.. awkward. I thought someone else softed an innocent on me. But if you had that, why would you be willing to compromise a vote on me? Also this likely means a scum in Cele and Wiz. I don't see town having both? I'll think this over

Vanilla from a Rolecop isn't an innocent?

[Thomith]

Celeb is not Scum Neap if scum. They’re probs a Complex/Simple role or a Vanilla Cop

Complex/Simple modifiers aren't allowed in Simples I don't think?

[Thomith]

Of the options mentioned I'm most okay with this for now.

VOTE: SirCakez

That should be E-2

[Thomith]

Yeah, I’m lean towning Hu Tao.

What changed?

[Thomith]

I'm going to sleep on this I think.

Part of me does kind of want to go Bingle instead. I want to reread the day at some point tomorrow if I can.

[Thomith]

Yeah, I’m lean towning Hu Tao.

ok so it's NAI then, same as I think your move here is prolly NAI too
why did you change your mind about Hu Tao?

Idk. I need a flip.

I can still see this as scum Tao.

Just cuz i scum read someone doesn’t mean i think they’re scum duh

What?

[Thomith]

I'm wondering if Bingle/Naerys may have partner equity.

[Thomith]

Naerys repeatedly said she would come online on Day 2, and the reason why she wasn't giving a huge amount of content on Day 1 was because she is bad at Day 1, but most of her posts today have had quite similar vibes as they have done the entire game.


I also feel like Bingle's posts following the Neap claim (specifically 1337 1345 1359) seem to be looking like they are saying a lot, without really saying much.

[Thomith]

UNVOTE: Cele
I am going to write as i think so sorry if it looks messed up.

Cele should be given a chance to prove his claim. The idea of him clearing FL sounds good - those 2 being scum together feels unlikely, the interactions between them arent giving me vibe of distancing buddies. So either:
-scum!cele will try to paint FL as scum
-scum!cele will try to pocket FL
-town!cele sorts FL

I kinda count on FL being town,i know. I dont see anything that could indicate that he rolled scum in this game, so i hope i am not wrong, lol.
Also few shifts in my reads: Despite me not liking Dunn´s hammer on gob, last few pages he felt pretty towny to me. The way he joined the discussion about Cele´s "No Result" happening indicates that he is actually thinking and not simply going with anything that feels limmable. Scum would continue pressing Celeb in my opinion. Eh, this flow of thoughts gave me few doubts about Flavor(

Note to myself: i need to check this later

)

SirCakez- What do you think of FL,Bingle and Roden? I dont think i saw you expressing your opinion on these players very much.
AWiz still looks scummy to me. Idk i just feel like there is no real effort? Disagree with 1249. Dunn and Cele are not giving me partners vibe. Also idk why Cele claim should be hard to swallow.Feels like a discredit.
Also Hu Tao pointing at me is weird and i dont understand it at all. Could you elaborate on why you SR me?

AWiz+Hu Tao are quite possible scum buddies. As for the last scum, the most likely feels RCE. They feel kinda non-existent. Like...what is RCE reads list, whats he doing?

Actually...VOTE: RCE
Look at their ISO, its just lacking.

I assume this is the post you are talking about?

Why do you think RCE's ISO looks lacking?

[Thomith]

I also feel like Bingle's posts following the Neap claim (specifically 1337 1345 1359) seem to be looking like they are saying a lot, without really saying much.

They, uh... Don't say much. They say: It's a bad idea to eliminate celebloki today. I'm interested in what you mean when you say that they look like they're saying a lot, though.

1345 I don't see the point for, which is what pinged me originally.
Most of the other posts mentioned are very setup-spec related, which usually tends to ping me, simply because it seems like an easy way to be viewed as making points that make sense, and look like you're solving, where nothing being said usually helps lead to a solve.

[Thomith]

I also feel like Bingle's posts following the Neap claim (specifically 1337 1345 1359) seem to be looking like they are saying a lot, without really saying much.

They, uh... Don't say much. They say: It's a bad idea to eliminate celebloki today. I'm interested in what you mean when you say that they look like they're saying a lot, though.

1345 I don't see the point for, which is what pinged me originally.
Most of the other posts mentioned are very setup-spec related, which usually tends to ping me, simply because it seems like an easy way to be viewed as making points that make sense, and look like you're solving, where nothing being said usually helps lead to a solve.

Hi. I'm Jingle, one of the premier setup designers on site. I do that. Constantly. Ask literally anyone who has met me. 1345 was a tongue in cheek agreement with Dunn that a rolecop fishing for a magical role that might or might not be a hard guilty over a role that has claimed is not a great plan, even if I do believe that Wiz is town here.

Fair enough.

[Thomith]

UNVOTE: Cele
I am going to write as i think so sorry if it looks messed up.

Cele should be given a chance to prove his claim. The idea of him clearing FL sounds good - those 2 being scum together feels unlikely, the interactions between them arent giving me vibe of distancing buddies. So either:
-scum!cele will try to paint FL as scum
-scum!cele will try to pocket FL
-town!cele sorts FL

I kinda count on FL being town,i know. I dont see anything that could indicate that he rolled scum in this game, so i hope i am not wrong, lol.
Also few shifts in my reads: Despite me not liking Dunn´s hammer on gob, last few pages he felt pretty towny to me. The way he joined the discussion about Cele´s "No Result" happening indicates that he is actually thinking and not simply going with anything that feels limmable. Scum would continue pressing Celeb in my opinion. Eh, this flow of thoughts gave me few doubts about Flavor(

Note to myself: i need to check this later

)

SirCakez- What do you think of FL,Bingle and Roden? I dont think i saw you expressing your opinion on these players very much.
AWiz still looks scummy to me. Idk i just feel like there is no real effort? Disagree with 1249. Dunn and Cele are not giving me partners vibe. Also idk why Cele claim should be hard to swallow.Feels like a discredit.
Also Hu Tao pointing at me is weird and i dont understand it at all. Could you elaborate on why you SR me?

AWiz+Hu Tao are quite possible scum buddies. As for the last scum, the most likely feels RCE. They feel kinda non-existent. Like...what is RCE reads list, whats he doing?

Actually...VOTE: RCE
Look at their ISO, its just lacking.

This monster becomes not valid since claims happened, Hu still could be scum but idk i feel like effort should be put elsewhere
RCE feels bad, but seems like they lack time to play.
I need to re-evaluate my TR on FL and Thom bcz i feel like something fishy is going on with those wagon changes

I unvoted Dunn because people were stating they were worried about the day moving too fast.
I voted Celeb because of the random posts being made that didn't add anything to the discussion.
I unvoted after the Neap claim.
I voted SirCakez as the first person being suggested for a vote that I was okay with (I didn't want to vote the claimed Neap, or Hu Tao due to being a town read.)

Which of these changes make me look fishy in your eyes?

[Thomith]

Does anybody wanna claim vanilla

What's the point of this post?

[Thomith]

Does anybody wanna claim vanilla

What's the point of this post?

Copying it into Word tells me it's Open Sans 14.5 point. You're welcome.

It took me way to long to understand the joke here

[Thomith]

It took me way to long to understand the joke here

Speaking of jokes...

I was wondering, do you think when Covid hit Indian restaurants had to worry about a potential bread shortage? Or was it more of a naan issue?

VOTE: Bingle

[Thomith]

Dunnstral (4): Hu Tao, Celebloki, AnimatedWiz, Roden

Honorable mention Thomith and Flavor.

Spoiler: Hu Tao

How so Bingle?

The immediate jump at FL on entry, the suspicion of you for buddying when clearly he could lean into your support if he was genuinely trying to lim FL as scum, the pandering to me while trying to lim the person I'd already explained was someone I have a really good track record at reading, the understanding that I am objectively the strongest this game.

All of these are pretty towny.

Cakez townlean.

Dunn is also a hard to pick out ISO post, but basically I don't think scum was super likely to actually quickhammer a doc claim in a gamestate where someone had just asked for a delay on the hammer.

You don't think that could be open wolfing?

I'm okay with voting there VOTE: Dunn

I had meant to follow up on this (for the life of me, I thought I had) but I really don't like that Hu votes here with the sole reasoning of "Maybe Dunn openwolfing". Like, the thought process is so surface level it wouldn't get it's feet wet. I don't think Hu really suspects Dunn scum would qh there, and she also doesn't really make an attempt to read me when I forget to follow through. Like, if she was actually solving, why is there no desire to get that question answered? It just seems like a throwaway question she doesn't really care about getting answered as a way to dismiss my towncase.

Spoiler: Celeb

As best I can tell, celeb was voting Dunn for hammering gob and NK spec. Absolutely nothing compelling to me, but I can see the vote on the basis of not having other scumreads, given the readslist.

Spoiler: Wiz

VOTE: Dunnstral.

I’m not a fan of how everyone backed off this slot, even if I do understand the desire to not shorten D2 into a sprint.

At least this has some reasoning behind it. Voting Dunn because there is unexplained reluctance to a Dunn wagon is a thought process I could get behind, but honestly the resistance to a Dunn wagon is pretty explained fmpov, being the source of the resistance and having explained it.

Spoiler: Roden

I think Dunn is the type of player to favor responding to quote pings as scum vs posting individual thoughts that aren't meant for anyone in particular. His activity is a little low, but he's had a mix of responding to people while also doing his own thing. He's also posting plenty of thoughts and why he scum reads certain slots, so I'm not super sold on scum!Dunn.

I'll go over my hammer again... I didn't believe the doctor claim. Leaving gob alive gives other players a chance to unvote gob, which reveals them as not doctor to mafia. Hammering gob also makes mafia think I could be a pr like doctor due to my hammer.

solid rehearsed reasoning.

UNVOTE: Dunnstral

either way, im okay with going over other options for sure.

I like this unvote.

VOTE: Dunn

This progression is gross AF. Not to mention that Roden's sole additions to the thread around this time are scummy ass pop-ins like "If celeb is scum it's okay that celeb is self advocating a lim." Like, I legitimately have no idea how anyone is townreading Roden here.

Spoiler: Thomith

Tho has the most developed scumread of Dunn, despite being offwagon. That scumread is:

Dunn is pinging me because of how he questioned Hu Tao's lack of a vote, but not gobs, and also not voting himself, but again that's a small thing.

Yes. A page 5 read is the most deeply reasoned bit of this wagon that got more than 50% of the living players on board. And I do think it's fairly sus that Thomith was off wagon AND didn't have any suspicions stronger than "Well, he only pushed one non voter in RVS."

Spoiler: FL

Dunnstral hammering the way they did looks like scum locking in the hammer before people would get PR scared.

This is probably the lowest hanging fruit read of all time, but that's actually a hallmark of FL's towngame. He can, and does, push fucking anything. The reason we work well together is because I'm good at recognizing when his pushes are dumb af and getting him to see it too. I think FL backing off of this is a very strong indication of this being his town game, even without my other, less public means of reading FL, but also that it 100% means that scum jumped feetfirst into this pool.

tldr, this is almost certainly a scum driven wagon, and there's not a whole lot of doubt in my mind who the scum candidates on it are.

To confirm, you think the suspicious people here are between Me/Roden/Hu Tao?

UNVOTE:

[Thomith]

I actually didn't realise I did not have much against Dunn except early game until you just pointed it out. I was checking my ISO being like "I'm sure i've gone into more detail", then after not seeing anything, read through Dunn again and yeah...

The issue is I think I'm tunnelled on Town!Hu Tao and Scum!Dunn, but on reflection not sure I have good reasons for either other then a gut tunnel at this point.

[Thomith]

I liked Dunn's response/reactions to the two claims.

[Thomith]

I mean, yeah, Dunn towned it up after the wagon, but that's pretty irrelevant to the wagon being shit. The point isn't that Dunn is towny now, but that a giant willingness to lim him on the back of

nothing

was there in the first place.

I agree, I'm more trying to sort out how I actually feel about Dunn now, after trying to take a step back because you made me realise I was kinda tunelled.

[Thomith]

I was saying I'm curious what her motivation was/is for defending my claim and result so much. There was a lot of discussion around how that isn't a valid result according to wiki articles for Neap or Roleblocker, but apparently is for JK for what Dunn was saying. One rationale I had for why Hu was so believing was maybe she was the JK that had targeted me, so she understood my result. Because of this I was more unsure if she was the lim for today in case she was town JK, but after Wiz's claim I am less worried about that. Hu Tao also seemed to implicitly confirm that she is vanilla based on Wiz's claim, she at least didn't attempt to dispute it.

What I was saying in 1431 is that now I can come around on a lim of her for today knowing she is vanilla at least.

I'm not sure I believe she slipped, but maybe her defending of me could be construed as TMI if a buddy of hers roleblocked me and she knew about it. It still begs the question of why she was so willing to believe me off the bat when no one else was.

If I remember correctly, both me and Naerys also said we believed the claim?

[Thomith]

Loki - pr?
Wiz - pr?
Hu - pr?

I havent started reading up yet but are we massclaiming d2 or what?

Only PR claims that have happened so far are:
AWiz: Role Cop (Vanilla Result on Hu Tao N1)
Celebloki: Neapolitan (No Result N1)

[Thomith]

I unvoted Dunn because people were stating they were worried about the day moving too fast.
I voted Celeb because of the random posts being made that didn't add anything to the discussion.
I unvoted after the Neap claim.
I voted SirCakez as the first person being suggested for a vote that I was okay with (I didn't want to vote the claimed Neap, or Hu Tao due to being a town read.)

Which of these changes make me look fishy in your eyes?

I am going through a paranoid stage where i am doubting basically everything that happened. What i am finding strange is that you voted for SirCakez even though you had me marked as scum. Could you explain this to me, please?

I get that, I feel like I'm at a similar point.

Firstly, at that point in time it didn't seem like you were an option/people weren't considering you enough for a vote to do anything. Of the options that seemed to be available at the time, SirCakez seemed to be the beat option at that point in time to me, because of the Celeb claim, and I didn't want to wagon Awiz. The fact that FL/Roden, who I also felt good about were on that wagon also aided that choice.

Secondly, while I still felt you were different to the last micro we played, you claimed to be a lot better at Day 2 than Day 1, and at that point I was still giving you the benefit of the doubt as it was early in Day 2 for you to be able to prove if this was true or not.

[Thomith]

Confirmed vanilla means nothing

It means they didn't roadblock Celeb, like he was suggesting.

It also means they aren't a scum PR which Bingle also seemed to be suggesting (but has since clarified this)

[Thomith]

It means they didn't roadblock Celeb, like he was suggesting.

What?

I was suggesting that the only way Hu Tao could've known that a roleblock happened as a vanilla would be a partner being responsible for it, and wondering why celebloki seemed to be townreading Hu Tao based on what would nominally be a guilty result. Celeb clarified the belief was only pre VC result, but I'm still interested in his actual conclusions there, particularly because I don't think it's likely for them to be paired.

Celeb was originally suggesting he thought Hu Tao roleblocked him, so was surprised Hu Tao was investigated as Vanilla.

[Thomith]

I think I'd also prefer Bingle over Hu Tao, but do agree one probably needs to flip today for info at the very least.

[Thomith]

Bingle reminds me his play in mini 2317, where he was town.
Bingle vs Hu feels rather similiar as Bingle vs Sleepy Dragon - 2 towns fighting each other. So i think Bingle vs Hu is possible TvT

You can look it up here viewtopic.php?t=91890

In that case who does that leave?
While I'm not entirely convinced that both the Neap/Role Cop are both Town, I do think we should leave them alone today.
I can feasibly see Bingle/HT being TvT as well, just something in my gut more than anything tbh.

That leaves; Me, You (Naerys), Dunn, FL, Roden, RCE, Cakez.

FL I think we also leave because part of the things we want to see play out tonight is the Neap investigating FL I believe? While I'm less sure of my TR of them, they're such a force that I dont want to vote them because I'm getting paranoid.

So that leaves the lim pool between Me/You, Dunn, Roden, RCE and Cakez?

[Thomith]

My only other point is I feel, even if they flip town, that HT or Bingle flipping green does seek to give us a lot of information, and if either do flip red, I think may also give us more information than some other less talkative players if they flip red?

Whether that is a good enough reason to lim purely for that information though, I'm not sure about tbh.

[Thomith]

VOTE: Cakez

I'm okay with this or RCE I think.

[Thomith]

I'll be real, I still kind of feel like a Bingle/Hu Tao flip might give us more information if we are wrong about Cakez.

[Thomith]

I'll be real, I still kind of feel like a Bingle/Hu Tao flip might give us more information if we are wrong about Cakez.

I kinda think Bingle or me just flip town. And then you'll want to vote the other and we lose.

I feel like you just flip town too, but that doesn't necessarily mean we just flip the other. I just feel like if you do flip town, we get more information to work with tomorrow from the flop than if cakez flips town.

[Thomith]

It gives us information due to the amount you were targeted today. Same with Bingle.
Since my stance on you is clear, I would prefer Bingle of the two of you, but I do think either of you flipping gives more information than you realise.

[Thomith]

I hate reading games
I'm at page 8 and I'll I've written so far is:
99 feels over explained
82 feels like something town!Daisy would write
Which overall doesn't make much sense because town!daisy overexplains things all the time. She's also not in the game

Who is town!daisy?

[Thomith]

I’ll write up a case in a couple of hours, but roden just doesn’t seem to be arguing in good faith at all, and his actions don’t really match his stated beliefs.

I'm getting gut pings which is making me suspect Flavor/Roden, but I feel like I have no proof of this, as I was heavily TRing them day 1 I'm worried I'm getting paranoid because this day phase has been a bit of a slog/mess.
I'll be interested in the case of Roden and hopefully I can solidify a read there based on if I disagree/agree

[Thomith]

Kind of surprised at the NK - I feel like there were enough people who thought Roecop and Neap may not be both town together that both may have been Kept alive.

Is it worth us massclaiming?

[Thomith]

Hu Tao: VT
Dunn: ?
Celeb: Neapolitan
FL: VT
Bingle: VT
Roden: ?
Elements: ?
Thomith: ?
Naerys: ?

I think this is where we are at right now?

[Thomith]

We have to mass claim today or tomorrow I think, and I'd prefer to do it today rather than ELo, as it gives us a but more wiggle room to use the information gathered for a solve?

[Thomith]

Popcorn or just claim when we are here?

[Thomith]

Whatever I'll just claim.

I'm Town Jailkeeper.

This was why I kept saying I believed Celebloki when he said he was roleblocked Night 1, because he was my night 1 target. I also said that I thought Bingles (at least I think it was Bingle) theory about a Jailkeeper made sense, because I knew he was right, because I was a Jailkeeper.
I wasnt confident I'd be able to protect correctly Night 1, so I instead tried to block the kill by targeting someone I suspected. I targeted off wagon, for the WIFOM reason that scum may think someone on the wagon might be targeted by a town roleblock, so sent someone off wagon to do the kill instead.

I Jailkept Flavor Night 2, because I did believe that the Rolecop/Neap were on opposing factions, so assumed both claims would live through the night, so instead Jailkept a Vanilla claim I thought was likely to be attacked.

Tl;dr:
I'm claiming Jailkeeper
Night 1 Target was Celebloki
Night 2 Target was FL

[Thomith]

I checked FL. He IS a VT.

Why wouldn't they block you?

My claim hopefully should answer that.

[Thomith]

Hu Tao: VT
Dunn: ?
Celeb: Neapolitan
FL: VT
Bingle: VT
Roden: ?
Elements: VT
Thomith: Jailkeeper
Naerys: VT

[Thomith]

Neap would find a Mafia Goon as "Not a Vanills Townie"

Rolecop would find them as "Vanilla"

[Thomith]

Wouldnt scum!Cele fake guilty on FL with intent to get him mislimmed tho

I dont think Cele wins in a FL vs Cele wagon battle, so maybe this was done out of self preservation?

I guess theres a world where FL and Cele are scum together, but with FL still pushing Cele I'm not as sure.

[Thomith]

Yeah, Neap specifically looks for VT or Not VT.

I really really struggle with seeing why a townWiz dies over a townCeleb unless Bingle exactly is scum. Celeb, in theory, being scum is another option, of course, but that also makes Bingle look bad on the way they defended.

Just to check, why am I not also scummy for defending Cele? Is it because I had the information I did?
If you dont wanna answer until after mass claim is over then that's fine, I'm just curious.

[Thomith]

Whatever I'll just claim.

I'm Town Jailkeeper.

This was why I kept saying I believed Celebloki when he said he was roleblocked Night 1, because he was my night 1 target. I also said that I thought Bingles (at least I think it was Bingle) theory about a Jailkeeper made sense, because I knew he was right, because I was a Jailkeeper.
I wasnt confident I'd be able to protect correctly Night 1, so I instead tried to block the kill by targeting someone I suspected. I targeted off wagon, for the WIFOM reason that scum may think someone on the wagon might be targeted by a town roleblock, so sent someone off wagon to do the kill instead.

I Jailkept Flavor Night 2, because I did believe that the Rolecop/Neap were on opposing factions, so assumed both claims would live through the night, so instead Jailkept a Vanilla claim I thought was likely to be attacked.

Tl;dr:
I'm claiming Jailkeeper
Night 1 Target was Celebloki
Night 2 Target was FL

That was me. Maybe flip a coin to decide if you are jailkeeping Celebloki tonight.

Why Celeb specifically?

OK I think Celebloki has a possibility of being mafia with the role claims. I think Roden's claim if investigated by the town rolecop could be assumed to be town, given town has no vigilante. Celebloki would likely be a mafia power role who would know when their action fails. It's hard to say because 3-4 power roles seems correct and the roles we have still seems on the weak side if Celebloki is mafia. Maybe the rolecop is stronger than we thing depending on mafia roles.

I am alright with looking elsewhere today though, just something I am keeping in mind. I doubt the jailkeeper claim is a fake. Roden if mafia would be claiming to keep Celebloki in the suspect pool because with only 3 power roles claimed I would be ready to call Celebloki town. I think the role cop dying makes Celebloki look worse.

Yeah I was thinking similarly. If no other PR claimed i was probably going to locktown celeb, because JK and RC only seems weak for town.

I'm honestly still kind of struggling to see RC/Neap being together, but dont think I wanna aim there today.

[Thomith]

I thought roden was the one who softed the innocent on me. I'll need to reasses a few things

Can I ask why you thought that?

[Thomith]

I think I'd be most okay with a lim between Bingle/Elements today? At least right now.

There's a small part of me that wants Celeb to flip to confirm if we can 100% trust FL or not, but dont think that's a great use of a lim today.

I'll probably go with either Dunns or FLs suggestion for night actions, but dont think I'll reveal publicly which one I go with?

[Thomith]

VOTE: Elements

I think I prefer here right now, but would probably go Bingle as well.

We should wait until the replacement before fully committing obviously.

[Thomith]

@Mod: V/LA this weekend

I should be able to still be checking and keeping up with things, but likely won't be super active.

[Thomith]

they dont have to listen to it, but dont see the purpose of letting it be on paper WIFOM'able.

The fact that I'm not going to publicly say what plan I'm going with should be enough WIFOM, no?

[Thomith]

the thing is, for me, idc if the replacement is the most townie to ever town on replace-in, im still probably going to wanna fade there based on my read on the other 2 in the slot, and my willingness to not push Bingle here yet.

I want to reread the ISOs, but I think I'm in the same boat here.
I want to reread everyone over the next few days if I can as well to try and get a more solid idea in place, because after Elements I'm not too sure where to go next.

[Thomith]

I think im either on a FL pocket or a Hu Tao pocket which worries me.

FL obviously can only be scum if Celeb also is, and obviously isnt confirmed scum even if Celeb is.

Going to read through ISOs over the next few days or so to see which one this is..
Want to get my head together for ELo if i am there..

[Thomith]

Is RC and JK against scum 1shot Juggernaut and Neap/VC balanced?

[Thomith]

If a PR is in hiding i feel like they are at best soft throwing at this point.

[Thomith]

I think I'd be fine with getting rid of bingle or roden. I only tr roden since I thought he was a pr.

If one of the PRs are fake, why do you suspect Roden over me or Celeb?

[Thomith]

Because I thought he softed an innocent. And both of your claims check out. Unless you're scum together idk

Rigt, makes sense.

@Roden why did you say what you did about "wanting to try something different" when TRing Hu Tao?

[Thomith]

It's certain one of the pr is scum imo. We should be voting there.

Me: Hu Tao is genuinely trying to solve
Hu Tao: makes this post
Me:

Thom jailkept Celebloki and Cele himself said he was blocked even before Thom claimed, i believe.
I think this rather strongly indicates that both are town.

There is a world where celeb is scum PR and thats how he knew he was RBed.

[Thomith]

I think he should have claimed it earlier, now it does look opportunistic. I recently rolled as 1-shot bulletproof town so i know this claim will always get some suspiction. I am inclined to believe it for now.

[Thomith]

Fucking accidental posting. Ignore that.

[Thomith]

It's certain one of the pr is scum imo. We should be voting there.

If you are correct, that means there are 2 in the VT claims, which makes it the same odds either way?

[Thomith]

I'll be honest, my gut when celeb claimed RBed N1 pinged that i thought he was town, which is why I tried to kind of soft claim with how hard i believed him when he was RBed.

I think I'm inclined to believe him here for now, even despite the fact I feel a bit off about RC/Neap existing together.

[Thomith]

okay, gonna sleep.

roden/hu tao/naerys

bingle/elements/dunnstral

are my two splits. mix and match one maybe, but that's where im at.

If Roden is scum I can maybe see the first one because of subtle defending like 1958
I'm still struggling to get over my Hu Tao townread though hm.

[Thomith]

If you believe Town has a Neap, RC, and JK though, does also having a 1-shot BP make sense for town? If anything he's now setup for the case that if I check him and get a negative, he's at least not lied. Any goons that claimed VT are now sweating that I can catch them in a lie.

Would you be willing to fade Naerys today?

[Thomith]

If the Roden/Naerys/Hu Tao solve is real, I'm wondering if there's a world where Roden/Hu Tao are trying to distance now, to try and set Hu Tao up to deep wolf.
Kinda wanna relook at the interactions throughout the game to see if these interactions are new.

[Thomith]

Why are we not flipping Bingle or Elements

I'm still on Elements for now I'm just tinfoiling right now in case we're wrong and go to ELo tbh.
Wanna go through the options.

[Thomith]

WIthout a Vig 1SBP seems weird for scum to have for a Simple though imo.

[Thomith]

WIthout a Vig 1SBP seems weird for scum to have for a Simple though imo.

How so?

"You are playing a Simple Normal game. These games are designed to provide a newbie-friendly and traditional mafia experience, with little focus on setup speculation."
I feel like Scum 1SBP without a Vig feels weird because of that? It's technically simple sure, but I feel it opens scum up to the setup spec of "there must be a vig"

[Thomith]

I'm honestly not sure what the motivation would be for that claim. I'm generally surprised counter claiming isn't something I've seen more often. From the games I've been in so far I've never actually seen someone attempt to go head to head in a true counter claim.

At this point, from a balance standpoint (I know very little about what a balanced setup looks like mind you) I just don't think town can have all 4 of those roles. I'm just trying to decide which of you or Thom is more likely to be lying. As the game has gone on, I've just town read Thom more than you.

Considering it's dangerous for the scum that have made VT claims, I'm surprised there weren't more PR fake claims to make my job harder since I can't confirm them, just that they aren't VTs. It would seem to me to have been a better strategy for all the scum players to fake claim PRs or at least one of them to CC me and get me out before I could find out otherwise.

If I was scum Roleblocker/Jailkeeper, why would I start hard defending you, essentially soft claiming that I roleblocked you (to the point of I'm actually genuinely surprised nobody picked up on this - I thought FL may have, but he didn't mention it really), especially after people were initially 1) scumreading you for the "No Result" thing, and 2) assuming you were blocked by scum?

[Thomith]

Kyouko is just such a weird target when we had an actual VT claim that no one really disputed should be investigated

Yeah, the inconsistencies are there in celeb. They stalled for the claim, but couldn’t much longer.

They also had to be a N1 Roleblock target on top of it.

The roleblock feels like a weird thing to fake though, when it would just make the claim less believable?

It’s a stronger claim with it. Why would Celebloki of all players here be roleblocked N1 and then just happen to get pushed here today?

Why did it take that long to get to the claim?

They spent the time with a scum partner crafting the claim.

I believe him when he says he got no result.

I believe that you believe that.

Like I kept pushing that I believed you got Roleblocked until I saw this post, because I assumed this was at least somebody picking up what I was trying to subtly (or not so subtly) try and hint at.

[Thomith]

Ill be honest, FL and Celeb subtly shading JK potentially not being town is making me a little paranoid.

[Thomith]

So any other wagon, you’re doing it without me

Okay well, as I said, I think it is just paranoia on my end, so if we are both town, which we probably both are, we probably should avoid this.

Why should we just go Roden if I wanted Hu Tao today?

[Thomith]

Don’t get how on any wavelength you can see that as me trying to shade any sort of JK, especially when I’m pushing Roden.

Ill be completely candid with you, Your stance change of the Neap, and you both slightly doubting the JK being town vs being a scum roleblocker made me worried you both were setting up to lim me in ELo, or at the bery least keep me from being fill clear.
The fact that Celeb ignored me asking if he would go Naerys (unless I missed something) made me paranoid about the team being You/Celeb/Naerys.
Again, I believe this is probably me tinfoiling due to paranoia.

[Thomith]

UNVOTE:

[Thomith]

As i said it is probably just paranoia on my part.
I dont want to fade you.

[Thomith]

Roden->Bingle is the pref, very small chance I’ll go Hu Tao, but I’m okay with them getting targeted by Celeb. probs not going anywhere else other than me

I'm okay to follow you on Roden or Bingle then.

I genuinely didnt intend to piss you off or whatever, I just wanted to put everything out there

[Thomith]

VOTE: Roden

[Thomith]

Im here.
I want to try and reread over the options ISOs today.

Ill be honest, I'm not voting FL today, if I decide to go down that road id want to flip Celeb first, because if it isnt Celeb/FL, it becomes clnfirmed with that one flip.

[Thomith]

This is a hard decision. I am leaning towards voting Bingle over Roden.

Why?

[Thomith]

33% of the voices being spoken today are scum aligned. Keep that in mind.

The fact that everybody seems to be okay with Bingle or Roden is what makes me doubt they're both scum?

[Thomith]

33% of the voices being spoken today are scum aligned. Keep that in mind.

The fact that everybody seems to be okay with Bingle or Roden is what makes me doubt they're both scum?

if there are 6 town left in this game, and if Thomith and I are both seen as town here, we make up 33% of the townies in the game. We are on Roden. Depending on Hu Tao, if Hu Tao is town, that is 50% of town on Roden here.

Ask yourself, why isn't scum jumping on this?

Right, so if Roden does flip red, thay means scum were pushing Bingle then probably?

Which would make me feel better about Bingle in that case I think?

[Thomith]

Were you not advocating for a Roden/Hu Tao team or am I going crazy?

[Thomith]

Flavor, perhaps scum is trying to look towny, if roden flips green then we are getting to miselim and lose, right?
Wouldnt it be better for them to try to bus their partner and take solid place amidst town instead of helping mislim townie?

Are you suggesting scum are bussing Bingle?

[Thomith]

I don't know if a compromise wagon is a good idea today tbh Naerys

[Thomith]

if Maestro ends up being town and we faded there, we get put in this exact situation tomorrow damn near

Exactly, at least this way if we are wrong, we have the info on what side people picked.
Maestro could be red, I feel like there's a decent chance that slot is red, but if it isn't we get like no info and ELo tomorrow.

[Thomith]

In hindsight we probably should have solved Hu Tao vs Bingle yesterday, instead of compromising on cakez.

[Thomith]

Claim List

Gob - VT
Kyouko - VT
CAKEZ - VT
Wiz - Role Cop

Hu Tao: VT
Dunn: VT
FL: VT - Neap Night 2 VT result.
Bingle: VT
Elements: VT
Naerys: VT
Roden: 1-shot BP
Celeb: Neapolitan - N1 No Result on Kyouko. N2 VT Result on FL
Thomith: Jailkeeper - N1 Jailed Celeb. N2 jailed FL.

[Thomith]

That's the claims Maestro.