open 894: near vanilla (game over)

[Black]

Fear not, for the Scum Queen has arrived to save this tortured town

[Black]

Hi black!

Hi boo! <3

And hello to all the other awesome people I recognize in this game

For those that don't know me I'm Black. It's a pleasure to meet you all

[Black]

I feel good about Aisa so far. It feels like she's engaging with people in a cooperative and amicable way and it feels like she's trying to genuinely figure them out

I like T3 here too. 15 feels like he's mocking bella considering his read in 26 which is kinda mean but not necessarily scum indicative. I like Project's read on T3 in 91 and I had similar thoughts when reading through, so I like Project so far as well

I agree with OWER's read on Jupiter in 86 and I like how inquisitive and engaged OWER feels

Nothing is really pinging me as scummy yet

[Black]

VOTE: Dannflor

I still think I'm entitled to an RVS vote and this is pretty fitting since I always end up scumreading Dann anyway

[Black]

His level of involvement in pushing discussion and analysing players feels more townie. He’s not afraid to put himself out there.

But I do think that’s a very basic, newbie take from me. I don’t think an experienced player would be concerned about that if scum.

Bolded is the thought I had when reading through and it's not voicing suspicion on T3, it's explaining why he might be town

[Black]

Aha I did wonder if aisa was being overly nice and was it scummy, but I agree T3 is probably town.

I've never played with Aisa before but I like the way she's thinking about the game, and specifically T3's alignment. It feels deeper than surface level

Are you familiar with Aisa's meta?

[Black]

I like T3 here too. 15 feels like he's mocking bella considering his read in 26 which is kinda mean but not necessarily scum indicative. I like Project's read on T3 in 91 and I had similar thoughts when reading through, so I like Project so far as well

Black - I’m taking ‘like’ to equate to leaning town but is there more to what is making you lean town for T3?

I found the reasons in your post to be fairly weak to form a town read, even though part of it is based off of shared thoughts with me. Whilst I gave thoughts in 91 as to what I found to be town leaning about T3, I though those thoughts were very basic and could easily be inapplicable to a more experienced player. Presumably you don’t agree? (Or agree basic but still applicable ha)

The other part of your comments regarding him point out that him being mean is not necessarily scum indicative, but it wouldn’t make me lean Town either.

I’m just curious if there is more that I’m missing as to why you (or anyone else) think T3 is leaning town.

I would say it's more of a townlean than a full on townread, and yeah it's definitely weak. My reads generally are early on. There's not much more to my read other than thinking T3 doesn't have to be doing this if he's scum here. And thinking about his mocking of bella a little more I feel like that's more likely to come from town. I don't think scum would want to make enemies on page 1

[Black]

VOTE: t3

Why is T3 scum fypov?

[Black]

Not that it matters, but ^ was my tr btw

Why did you townread 12?

[Black]

Also I'm still curious about what I asked you in 107

[Black]

Mainly vibes tbh, it's page one.

I can't argue with vibes but I'm a little surprised your vibe-o-meter picked up on that post and not the several other jokes on that page

[Black]

I think Kurtapika's posts feel a little awkward and maybe forced but that might have something to do with him not being used to day starts. It feels like he's trying to adjust to an unfamiliar situation

[Black]

Fear not, for the Scum Queen has arrived to save this tortured town

I dispute this claim.

You can be the princess to inherit when I retire.

When I take my first loss as scum then I will consider relinquishing my title

[Black]

How many scum games have you had? My issue was about a year ago I hadn't rolled scum in a year and then got four In a row!

I'm 5-0

[Black]

- I kinda think Titus is a little towny so far? I've definitely not read her wrong before
- I don't think OutworldER is necessarily evil, but I disagree with the townreads they're gotten so far

Can you elaborate on these two reads?

[Black]

I won my first 6. How many are you at?

5. I guess I need one more to get on your level but unfortunately this game won't be it

[Black]

VOTE: Kurtapika

[Black]

I'll get back to you on that

[Black]

ooh we got a new player! hi black, welcome to the game!!
got a question though, if you're the scum queen doesn't that mean you doom the game?

I'm like Bowser in Super Mario RPG. Occasionally I will align myself with the town to take down a mutual enemy

[Black]

This is why I view Dannflor as town. The lack of need for upfront explanation and being comfortable to individually go and push/rxn in spite of his openly limited involvement reeks of townie POV to me. Essentially, a massive decreased incentive for caution. Doubt this would give any kind of good impression as scum. If it's a scum playstyle it's one I'd be unfamiliar with in experienced players for sure.

On the others I find of note, I would give OutWorldER and Titus a slight townlean. Possibly also Black. T3 I have no opinion on either way, could just as well be an aggressive wolf or argumentative town with the same manner, he seems the type who plays straightforwardly regardless of alignment. Project's posts are good and give the vibe of new town evaluating.

We're seeing the game similarly except for the Aisa read. I'm not familiar with her meta but I feel good about her thoughts and questions so far. I feel the same about Dann except I am slightly familiar with his meta and this certainly feels like his town game, although I don't have much experience with his scumgame to compare it to

Why do you townlean me though?

[Black]

Ok. Any thoughts on my vote on you? Do you think there was a reason behind it or did you read 157 as me not having one?

[Black]

I had a similar feel for him...he mentions "vibes" for his reads so far, which isn't super helpful for convincing the rest of us why to/not to vote for somebody.

I wouldn't really expect much more from people so early in the game. I think it's good he's sharing his thoughts about people even if they are mostly just vibe reads

@Black and @Dann - What about Jupiter is it you're seeing that's making you TR him?

It's more of a gut feeling that he's probably just newtown spewing whatever thoughts come to his mind. It doesn't feel like there is much of an agenda there. I feel like newscum would be more hesitant to say so much and be this involved this early but I could be wrong

[Black]

I do feel it's riskier for scum to do that stream of consciousness thing, as there's more to point back to later and say 'but you said...'

Yep

[Black]

SHADOWEZ

why are you ignoring the t3 wagon huh

Because he's my scumbuddy and I'm not bussing, obvs

As a real answer, I don't see this as a worthwhile wagon. My primary SR right now is the first vote and it doesn't feel like a bus,

so it'd be a pretty big swing for me to switch those reads right now.

The second vote is an RVS vote from somebody with 2 posts. I do have a slight TR on both you and Aisa right now, but that's not enough for me to hop on just yet.

The underlined doesn't feel like something a townie would say here, it feels like you're deliberately calculating how natural your progressions and votes feel, which town has no reason to do.

VOTE: shaddowez

Ehh I'm not sure about this. I can see where you're coming from but one of the responsibilities of being town is trying to let others find you as town. I think some people are naturally more self-conscious about what they're doing regardless of alignment

[Black]

Why do you think scum would say that out loud like that? Or do you just think he was trying to be open/honest and slipped?

[Black]

hi i should probably read up tonight instead of playing oblivion for 6 hours huh

Yes but honestly I don't think anyone can judge you for playing that masterpiece. I've been meaning to replay it with some mods

[Black]

by the way, Black, could you send me the links to some of your past scumgames? you dont have to but i'd greatly appreciate it, even one is fine

Open 885

Newbie 2116

These are my two most recently completed scum games. There's one in between these but I had to replace out halfway through due to some unfortunate IRL stuffs

[Black]

OK i gotta go now. bye gang i got some more stuff but business calls! see ya

What more did you have from stuff up to this point? Future posts only respond to posts after yours, not any thoughts prior to that.

I didn't actually plan on posting this, but I was actually starting to paranoia myself out of my hesitant Black townread. Better sooner than later, I guess.
Previously I had just considered her generally towny but I did some thinking on it and while I haven't seen her scumrange I was worried that I could just be getting played. i mean she kind of did pull up to the thread and declare herself the scum queen- it's an interesting approach with no direct reason for it beyond flexing. but it started to set off my internal alarm bells, because if she's so good at playing scum it means that it's harder for me to believe she's as likely to be town as i initially thought she was, if that makes sense.

alsoo what does the last sentence of this post mean?

The Scum Queen thing is sort of a tongue-in-cheek joke that has been going on for months now, but I've definitely embraced it (if you couldn't tell )

[Black]

Ehh I'm not sure about this. I can see where you're coming from

but one of the responsibilities of being town is trying to let others find you as town

. I think some people are naturally more self-conscious about what they're doing regardless of alignment

Also re: the underlined specifically

I disagree. The hypothesis that I've gone into this game with, and what's informing my play-style this game, is that what's "scummy" and "townie" is mostly arbitrary and incredibly variable from person to person. There's a few behaviors where there's consensus, but very little of it is based in objective fact. Through this lens, trying to specifically curate your image to be townie, as a townie, is an incredibly sisyphean task. This is why I've mostly stuck to asking questions this game, trying to gain some insight into how players view the game and then catching them when they contradict themselves to push an agenda.

My shaddowez vote here is a deviation from that, mostly because I think his specific phrasing there, and the specific reasons he gave, warranted pressure and further investigation.

I think I agree with you here. I just don't expect all townies to feel/play this way

[Black]

Jupiter what is your read on shaddow?

[Black]

I won my first 6. How many are you at?

5. I guess I need one more to get on your level but unfortunately this game won't be it

If you do, I'll pass the torch. Might retire soon anyway.

Don't you start with that crap

[Black]

I won my first 6. How many are you at?

5. I guess I need one more to get on your level but unfortunately this game won't be it

If you do, I'll pass the torch. Might retire soon anyway.

Don't you start with that crap

I've made mistakes recently. Very big ones. Plus reality ain't slowing down.

You should at least try to make it to 80k posts and personally I would like to see you try and hit 100k. Surely that's an exclusive club but I would need a MS historian to confirm that

[Black]

@Project is this your first mafia game ever?

[Black]

@Project is this your first mafia game ever?

Yes. Is it that obvious? haha.

No. I think you're playing really good, especially considering how new you are

You're probably my top townread tbh. I don't really see newscum being this competent at radiating towniness

[Black]

@Project is this your first mafia game ever?

Yes. Is it that obvious? haha.

No. I think you're playing really good, especially considering how new you are

You're probably my top townread tbh. I don't really see newscum being this competent at radiating towniness

...you and me?

I wasn't

this

good in my first couple of scumgames. I have no clue what your first games looked like

[Black]

Yeah I can get on board with this. Still want to hear from Kurtapika but the responses he gave me were already giving me town vibes

VOTE: bellaphant

[Black]

@Project is this your first mafia game ever?

Yes. Is it that obvious? haha.

No. I think you're playing really good, especially considering how new you are

You're probably my top townread tbh. I don't really see newscum being this competent at radiating towniness

Oh thanks. I thought you meant I was doing really bad haha.

I disagree with a couple of your reads but only time will tell if you are "playing well" in regards to read accuracy. I just think you've done a good job explaining why you think what you think. Your questions and re-evaluations really seem like you're trying to sort people and your posts have this genuine tone to them that is difficult for new scum players to replicate. Not impossible, but I would be super impressed if you were scum here

[Black]

what's everyone's opinions on dannflor?

He feels town but I'm never going to let myself townlock him

[Black]

my gut says you're towny but i don't think you've done much to warrant that townread so you're just kind of hanging out in my head

If your gut is telling you he's town how could you not think he's done anything to warrant a townread?

[Black]

The gut feeling has to come from something

[Black]

Or from looking at Jupiter's avatar

[Black]

Why can't you just have a Pokemon or anime character or cool movie star like the rest of us

[Black]

The gut feeling has to come from something

No. Gut feelings can be hunches or biases.

I guess that's fair. The hunch generally comes from something though, but yeah you're right. Jupiter had Dann at null less than 24 hours ago so that's what makes me thing the "gut feeling" is based on something Dannflor did today

[Black]

my gut says you're towny but i don't think you've done much to warrant that townread so you're just kind of hanging out in my head

If your gut is telling you he's town how could you not think he's done anything to warrant a townread?

i don't know
his vibes are like good but slightly weirdish. it's always this thing i have going on with experienced players (especially so those who *feel* experienced) where i cannot trust them at all. if they're towny it ticks off my alarm bells because as scum they'd know enough to act towny and since i'm not particularly good with assigning reads it's easy enough for them to just slip past me. but then they could also literally just be town, and then i'm stuck paranoia'ing everyone i townread for the pure reason that they're better at mafia than me. it's also one of the exact reasons why i've been unable to lock a specific read on t3 (and it's pissing me off btw): because dannflor says town t3 knows better, he's experienced enough to do this right as town, and i buy that, but at the same time why would scum t3 do this so wrong???

I can definitely relate to this. You just described me as town

[Black]

if they're towny it ticks off my alarm bells because as scum they'd know enough to act towny and since i'm not particularly good with assigning reads it's easy enough for them to just slip past me. but then they could also literally just be town, and then i'm stuck paranoia'ing everyone i townread

Like this in particular just speaks to my soul

[Black]

feast my eyes upon this little guy!!!

nom nom nom

feast your eyes*

excuse me while i drown in my embarrassment.

IT'S SO CUTE THANK YOU

[Black]

Ok that video is hilarious but my question wasn't that difficult

[Black]

I feel like Titus is doing more than sky and nono

Speaking of which...

@mod can we get a prod on nono?

[Black]

@mod might as well prod sky too unless the Oblivion posts count as game related XD

[Black]

Oh I forgot those two even existed

Seems pretty NAI for sky at least. I've never played with nono before so idk if this is normal for them and I'm too lazy to look atm

[Black]

black where are your scum reads at

I'm struggling. I feel like it has been a lot easier finding town this game than it has been finding scum. That probably means I'm wrong about somebody but that's pretty standard. I have a gut feeling that there's at least one scum in the lurky non-talkers which is why I wanted the mod to start poking people

I think bella and shaddow could be scum together. I know bella said the TR on shaddow was vibes but I just don't understand where those vibes could have came from and I'm starting to think 13 is the scummy kind of performative. I don't agree with a lot of her reads which doesn't make her scum but it always feels weird when someone is seeing things so differently than me

With shaddow I didn't like 188 very much. I think OWER is fairly townie so his comment to Aisa here feels like a read scum might sheep to go against the grain. 215 feels like a softball question to a partner considering bella already went over this feeling earlier but I'll admit this may just be conf bias

[Black]

Generally I think if it comes down to nothing else Titus is probably more likely to be scum than town because there's been nothing else to give me the impression that she's towny ¯\_ (ツ)_/¯

I think my scumlean on shadow's grown a bit into a scumread mostly just cause I've gotten more suspicious of them btu also they're not here to defend themself

I also think I'm gonna gently let go of my null-scum read on Black. I think that reaction she made to one of my posts (#282 iirc) was pretty towny and I skimmed a bit through her scumgame (Newbie 2116) and there seems to be this very distinct tonal difference? Obviously the posts are same but I'm getting different vibes from Black in her scumgame and black here. Like it's same kind of content being pushed out but this Black seems more contributive and generally more towny while that Black is a bit more argumentative and blunt.

Kind of hard to explain but there's kind of a difference between the posts if that makes sense

Your conclusion is correct but I don't think meta is the best way to solve me, especially when it comes to being argumentative and blunt. Wait for someone to push me for bogus reasons and you may see some of that

[Black]

I've realized lately that my tone seems to be more influenced by what is happening in-game and also my mood IRL than they are by my role PM

[Black]

Meta this, meta that, have you ever meta girl before?

This is still one of the best posts on the site

[Black]

@Black would you say your scum play is close to your town play.

Probably the wrong person to ask so I will throw that out to people who have had more interaction with her than me. Are Black's playing styles similar regardless of alignment?

I think so, but I'd be curious to hear what other people think. Dannflor or Bella would probably be the best people to ask

I feel like my meta is somewhat fickle but the constants are me being active and engaged as both alignments. Maybe slightly moreso as town

[Black]

I feel comfortable slotting Kurtapika as town for now

[Black]

Finally someone in my TZ, I think ...

interesting that you mention this

The move at this point I'd think would be best lim the lowest posters over anything

you are one of them at this point. I was doing some ISO digging looking at votes etc and then saw that you had posted. What I was about to do was shake your leg and place a vote on you because of that, then your post dropped. Yes Sky and Nono are also in the group of LHF and one has less input than you, but not much. You have 6 posts, Nono 3, and Sky 10.

Not that post counts matter much in many respects until I feel someone with a low count singles out those others with low counts. then yes it is a thing in my mind. So

Why did you choose Sky over Nono?

Maybe if you're strictly talking about post counts but I think including Kurtapika in the same group as sky and nono is a little unfair. His content is way better. This kinda feels like shade

[Black]

The move at this point I'd think would be best lim the lowest posters over anything, I don't have a strong sr personally and I imagine it would be conducive to getting an overall better idea of who's solidly town when more of the table is producing content later down the line. Plus it'd root out whether we're dealing with scum on one of them or if and where we're going to be narrowing down existing townish reads.

I don’t like this idea. To me that is not the best move for town, just a random lim on a low contributor. I appreciate there is likely scum essentially hiding in the shadows but it’s a complete shot in the dark.

Surely it’s better to lim someone specific we have some suspicion over rather than just a complete random lim?

I don't think it would be completely random because I think certain players are prone to lurking as scum but I see what you're saying here

To add to this I think fading low information slots is probably a lot worse than someone who's flip could give us some insight into the rest of the playerlist

[Black]

Apparently this is a more controversial take than I thought it was? I might be way off but I've really likes the way that shadow has explained their thoughts and I can see an overall process that I vibe with. A lot of what I do day one is find people who's thoughts I can work with. I've had this massively backfire once or twice (my last game with Implosion) but I'm still weak to it.

What about his explanations make you think they are more likely to come from town?

You say your read on T3 is similar but to me it doesn't feel like shaddow and T3 are explaining their thoughts the same, or maybe I'm just not seeing it. Can you elaborate here?

Can you rephrase the bit about shadow, Ower and aisa?

To me it felt like shaddow was sheeping an opinion in order to cast shade on OWER, whereas Aisa's original opinion felt more like a genuine thought that made her unsure of OWER's alignment. I could be wrong but that's how I perceived it

Also, it makes me Sus that you have this many opinions on me without engaging me. Especially because out of everyone you also know my meta?

What do you mean by "this many opinions"? It's like one opinion and it's based off one of the few interactions we had

Why do you think I'm familiar with your meta?

[Black]

Maybe if you're strictly talking about post counts but I think including Kurtapika in the same group as sky and nono is a little unfair. His content is way better. This kinda feels like shade

I'd agree, the posts today especially have shown far better content. And yes those posts and associated responses have pinged me in the right way. I would agree they are sounding town.

As for 'Shade' I am not sure what this means, but if it is what I think it is, I can say its not, its a genuine thought.

To me shade means you're trying to make him look bad, but I vibe with this explanation

[Black]

Can you explain what you like about his posts today that you didn't see in his previous posts?

[Black]

Maybe I explained this badly: knowing I'm town, when I see a thought process that seems to be mirroring mine, I'm more likely to town bin it. I also do know that I'm weak to certain playstyles too and am just more likely to see 'thoughtful' and 'reaaonable' as town and 'aggresive' as slightly scummier..

Do you think T3 has been thoughtful and reasonable?

I do expect you to know a bit about my style, but I also need to remember I've probably read more games of yours than you are aware of.

I have no clue what the difference between townbella and scumbella is. I think we've only played in one game together actually? Maybe two. I wouldn't mind hearing some self-meta if you feel like it

[Black]

@Black would you say your scum play is close to your town play.

Probably the wrong person to ask so I will throw that out to people who have had more interaction with her than me. Are Black's playing styles similar regardless of alignment?

I think so, but I'd be curious to hear what other people think. Dannflor or Bella would probably be the best people to ask

I feel like my meta is somewhat fickle but the constants are me being active and engaged as both alignments. Maybe slightly moreso as town

Thank you,

but can you explain this as I don't get it. You say Bella is one of two who are probably going to be able to give a good read on your meta, then you say this to her in 353

What do you mean by "this many opinions"? It's like one opinion and it's based off one of the few interactions we had

Why do you think I'm familiar with your meta?

seems disjointed, disconnected, why would she know your meta and yet you don't know hers?

She has read a lot more of my games due to me playing with her boo thang Klick

[Black]

I mean ...I've read more of blacks games than they have min but I would expect them to know my town game a bit at least, or at lesst my day one town game, so yeah it feels weird

Your play here doesn't feel much like Newbie 2119. You were much more engaged and aggressive to start that game. You did have a "page one hot take" but you didn't ask the class if it was weird that you had a TR, you just went right out and said it was Dragon. I don't like basing reads off of meta but if I'm comparing that game to this, I'm not seeing many similarities. What am I missing?

[Black]

I'm gonna tell him you called him that

It's a term of endearment

[Black]

I remembered something about Black's reads: they are occasionally really weird when she's town, in a way that I think is harder to fake when scum..

I'd also forgot that yeah, it's been one game. I think scum!Bella and scum black have a bit in common in that I'm way more aggressive as scum, and I find things weirdly harder to explain as town; I used to get wagonnrd as town every day one, I think because people think I'm being evasive when it's just a lack of clarity,/confidence..it hasn't happened for ages though, so I thought I'd improved!

You were more aggressive as town in the Newbie I just linked. This just makes me think you're purposely

not

being aggressive this game because you think that's how you play as scum

[Black]

Also bella:

Do you think T3 has been thoughtful and reasonable?

[Black]

Low key annoyed at having to defend myself against a meta read for like the 20th game this year

The posts she makes in that game and their content are very similar to her play in early in this game.

Go on

[Black]

Low key annoyed at having to defend myself against a meta read for like the 20th game this year

black I'll be upfront with you since if you're town I don't want this to devolve into a TvT that clogs up the thread and I think there's a decent chance you're town still (hence why I'm not gung-ho about wagoning you myself)

but right now what I'm troubled by is your inability to really generate scum reads

I feel like the first ones you mentioned were shaddowez and bellaphant and those were mostly just following scum reads that I + others had already put out there. I feel like I usually don't see you have any trouble coming up with reasons people might be scum, and even your push on Bellaphant seems to lack the same... uh, bite, I usually see from you?

I think it's weird that you didn't show support or interest in my wagon until someone else took the first step, and now you don't want interaction between me and Afrayed because you're worried it might be TvT? Wouldn't our interactions be helpful in confirming your reads there?

I don't know what to tell you. No one is really being scummy this game. If scum is someone like Kurtpika then they're doing a really good job at seeming townie. You may disagree but I can't help that I get town vibes there. In every other game we played people were doing things I could point at and say "oh yeah scum could probably do that". I'm not seeing those same posts here. It's just a bunch people on their best town behavior

I think bella could be scum but she's one of my favorite people on this site so maybe that's where the lack of bite comes from. I haven't found anything to sink my teeth into

[Black]

I feel comfortable slotting Kurtapika as town for now

PoE, or reason?

I liked my interactions with him. It felt like he was being honest with me

To add to this I think fading low information slots is probably a lot worse than someone who's flip could give us some insight into the rest of the playerlist

Following up on the above, Kurtapika is recommending a policy lim on low info players in 335, so why the TR and no questioning of this play if you don't like it?

I don't agree with his vote and I won't be joining the sky wagon but I don't see why it is more likely to come from scum

[Black]

I think it's weird that you didn't show support or interest in my wagon until someone else took the first step, and now you don't want interaction between me and Afrayed because you're worried it might be TvT? Wouldn't our interactions be helpful in confirming your reads there?

I'm not talking about you and afrayed, I'm talking about me and you lol

please go and interact with afrayed there's a reason I didn't stop him voting you

Oh, my b

Yeah I'm working on it

[Black]

If scum is someone like Kurtpika then they're doing a really good job at seeming townie. You may disagree but I can't help that I get town vibes there. In every other game we played people were doing things I could point at and say "oh yeah scum could probably do that". I'm not seeing those same posts here. It's just a bunch people on their best town behavior

okay can you elaborate more on where the town vibes are coming from then?

I like his responses to people and feel like he's being open and honest. 60 and 73 feel good now that I've kinda let go of the feeling that his posting is awkward and forced. Then he dropped townreads on me and Titus even though we started his wagon which I liked. I guess this could be considered appeas-y. I hadn't thought about that until looking over his iso just now

[Black]

I assumed to glean my reaction to it, to be blunt. More specifically, the reason it gave me the impression from town from you as opposed to scum was that you hadn't provided your reason upfront, and I doubt that scum calculating their actions would make the obviously contradicting move of switching to my wagon like that while giving a tentative sounding excuse, when it could easily be pointed at later as potential sheeping. It feels like there was a towny thought process behind it, like as if you reread my posts and felt something from them that made you change your mind, but hadn't been able to put into words yet. So essentially you were placing your vote on me to try and sense out further what could be causing that vibe.

He was right about this but I guess that doesn't mean he's town for it. I hadn't really thought about him trying to appease people but now I can't unsee it. I don't think this behavior is inherently scummy though

[Black]

Speaking of appeasing. Jupiter feels that way these last several posts. Are you scumreading that too Dann?

[Black]

I assumed to glean my reaction to it, to be blunt. More specifically, the reason it gave me the impression from town from you as opposed to scum was that you hadn't provided your reason upfront, and I doubt that scum calculating their actions would make the obviously contradicting move of switching to my wagon like that while giving a tentative sounding excuse, when it could easily be pointed at later as potential sheeping. It feels like there was a towny thought process behind it, like as if you reread my posts and felt something from them that made you change your mind, but hadn't been able to put into words yet. So essentially you were placing your vote on me to try and sense out further what could be causing that vibe.

He was right about this but I guess that doesn't mean he's town for it. I hadn't really thought about him trying to appease people but now I can't unsee it. I don't think this behavior is inherently scummy though

my problem with this is that it's like pretty obviously the answer you are looking for from him *and* I think he goes a bit overboard with explaining it

I guess I haven't seen enough from kurta to know for sure whether this is just his personality or not, but I think his response to you could've been like 1-2 sentences and I'm left wondering why he feels the need to justify his reaction/town read on you so heavily, if not for optics

He is verbose in a lot of what he's saying so it seems consistent at least, still no way to tell if it's personality or not. I don't understand why you don't think townies can be worried about their optics? If he's town and he notices a wagon forming on him I think it's normal to want to seem townie in his responses

[Black]

Speaking of appeasing. Jupiter feels that way these last several posts. Are you scumreading that too Dann?

i am not appeasing anyone

You seem to be intimidated by Dann or something and it feels like you're trying to appease him by putting your vote where he thinks you should have it. I don't think this makes you scum but I want to hear Dann's opinion on it

[Black]

They give me super mixed vibes? Their beginning posts were quite bad, I agreed with some of the middle, specifically about aisa, and then the lurker vote was horrible.

VOTE: kurtapika

Also, I was going to make a joke about our lovely cohesive VC but dann beat me

I don't like this. Why not vote for me here over someone you have mixed feelings over?

[Black]

I think the lurker vote is being blown way out of proportion and it feels like you're using that as the basis of your vote which doesn't feel real to me

[Black]

He is verbose in a lot of what he's saying so it seems consistent at least, still no way to tell if it's personality or not. I don't understand why you don't think townies can be worried about their optics? If he's town and he notices a wagon forming on him I think it's normal to want to seem townie in his responses

so, a lot of mafia (read: scum) player's first priority is to look town. This makes sense since their win condition depends on surviving until the end of the game and looking more town (or less scummy) than enough other people is the most straightforward way to do this.

town's first priority is to find and kill scum. town are not necessarily as prone to worry about surviving because they can win posthumously as long as the scum are found and deaded.

obviously this is a massive oversimplification and townies do obviously want to look town as well (and there are other complications as well)

BUT town's first priority is generally not to look town, it's to find scum. my general feeling is that kurta's posts were more designed to prioritize the former which i view as more likely to come from scum.

I generally agree with this but in a game where it's hard to find scum then wouldn't it make sense to fall back on a lesser priority like trying to show everyone you're town?

[Black]

They give me super mixed vibes? Their beginning posts were quite bad, I agreed with some of the middle, specifically about aisa, and then the lurker vote was horrible.

VOTE: kurtapika

Also, I was going to make a joke about our lovely cohesive VC but dann beat me

I don't like this. Why not vote for me here over someone you have mixed feelings over?

The answer is literally in what you quoted? Y

Sorry if I'm missing it but I'm not seeing where you explained why you would want to vote Kurtpika over me. You said you don't townread me and you think I'm sus. It feels unnatural of you to not put pressure on me here and instead join the bigger wagon

[Black]

maybe?

I don't think I agree it's hard to find scum in this game and I personally think a lot of people aren't trying very hard

453 implies you do, or at least you understand why others might

[Black]

VOTE: shaddowez

[Black]

The whole point is that our wagons are ridic right now: danns saying exactly the same thing. I am voting where I think we can have an actual wagon on a slot I don't tr, so we can get some progress and that's...an issue?

I clearly didn't gather this from your posts but ok. Sorry I guess?

[Black]

Sky, I get what you're doing and knock it off.

the only thing i'm doing is letting my adhd run rampant

I have ADHD too and I still force myself to play this stupid game

Please come play the game you willingly signed up for

[Black]

Afrayed, your meta case on me is hot garbage. Out of all the content we have here you're choosing to place your vote based on my posts feeling the same as another game. Did you even look at more than just one game to see if that feeling is elsewhere? It's a half-baked read. You can't solve me based on meta and that is even more evident based on your conclusion. Many have tried and they have all failed. So please either come at me with a real case or do something useful with your vote

[Black]

I think Titus's preflip stuff feels kinda townie

I think if Kurtapika does flip scum then nono could be a possible partner. It's weird that he has kurt in his solve but doesn't seem interested in voting there at all

[Black]

Let me drag myself out of bed. I probably need my PC for this one sec

[Black]

Ok so your theory is 544?

Looking at Kurtapika's ISO I see that he and T3 had an early interaction in 73. T3's question in 65 doesn't really feel like the typical softball question I would expect from one scum to another so early in the game. It feels more like T3 is either trying to sort Kurt or defend his bella read. In this same post Kurt poses a question to T3 which feels more like a softball than T3's question at least. I think it could be theatre but I'm not willing to believe that's the case here

Looking further it doesn't seem like T3 ever answered the question? And Kurt never asked him for a follow up either. Kurt was gone for a couple of days and T3 has been non-existent lately but regardless I think the lack of follow up from either of them supports your theory a little

I don't really think it's that weird that Kurtapika hasn't mentioned T3 other than early on and now recently with the preflip stuff. T3 hasn't done anything in quite some time so there isn't much to comment on. Inluding him in a pre-flip solve despite him not being around does feel a little off. And it's based off of shaddow's 209 which I feel like Kurtapika would have commented on before the whole "gun-to-head gimme your scumreads!" thing if he actually thought they were paired. Kurt's thought here kinda feels like a stretch but if Kurt is legitimately struggling with scumreads (believable) then that would explain why it feels a little forced

Looking at T3's iso I'm not getting anything here other than what I mentioned earlier about the lack of follow up to Kurt's 73. I'm curious to see what T3 does when he actually comes back and plays

[Black]

Afrayed, your meta case on me is hot garbage. Out of all the content we have here you're choosing to place your vote based on my posts feeling the same as another game. Did you even look at more than just one game to see if that feeling is elsewhere? It's a half-baked read. You can't solve me based on meta and that is even more evident based on your conclusion. Many have tried and they have all failed. So please either come at me with a real case or do something useful with your vote

But it’s not a Meta read. Well not technically. Your posting is the same as that game. In that game I correctly called you or as scum D1 because of your posting and what I thought was coaching a scum buddy but it turned out to be pocketing a townie. So call me an old dog with a bone.

That's the definition of a meta read. You think that because there are similarities between this game and a scum game it means that I'm scum this game. I'm not some formulaic robot that posts the same every time I roll town or scum. My posting is influenced by lots of different things. If you want to vote for me based on meta then I would expect you to go look at other games of mine to see if that feeling you're getting is noticeable in my other games

But you shouldn’t worry it’s only My vote sat on you and the way others are playing then things may change. I’m still looking at Jupiter and Shaddow. Trouble is you and Jupiter are camped on Shaddow. Not that it matters but it’s sort of in the back of my mind.

I'm not worried, I'm frustrated. I'm sick of talking about my meta. I made an alt recently so I could play one game without this conversation happening. It drains the fun out of it for me

[Black]

Using meta in some capacity is fine. Using it as the sole reason for a vote, and only comparing two games, is what annoys me. People don't use meta correctly. I could link to all the times people have used meta incorrectly on me in my signature and people would still be like "oh Black's playing like her scum game!!!"

[Black]

Although, I don't sr you because of meta.

Why do you SR me?

I see 368...what in those "last few pages" made you think I was scum?

[Black]

You asked me to come at you with something else. Seems I don’t need to based on your reaction. Very defensive reactions in fact. You seemed quiet chill when you first challenged me, and I was doubting my read. Right now empathy tells me to back off. But this is a game and I’m trying to find scum.

Why would me being chill make you doubt your read? Do you think I'm chill when I'm town and defensive as scum?

[Black]

Black, is my theory valid? Yes or no.

Yeah I think there's some weight to it, but I also think Kurtapika is town so I'm not sure if it's the world we live in

[Black]

Why would it not? It’s rather immaterial to be honest in my opinion. But if you really need an answer Then it did, but only for a moment.

Because your whole read is based on Open 888 and I didn't get defensive at all when being pushed as scum in that game. It doesn't feel like you are putting much thought into this read at all

[Black]

@Afrayed do you have any completed scum games on the site?

[Black]

@Afrayed do you have any completed scum games on the site?

Nope

Ok. Where is this supposed slip in 443?

[Black]

Why would it not? It’s rather immaterial to be honest in my opinion. But if you really need an answer Then it did, but only for a moment.

Because your whole read is based on Open 888 and I didn't get defensive at all when being pushed as scum in that game. It doesn't feel like you are putting much thought into this read at all

I am putting into it all I can based on experience. Are you now trying to cast doubt on my ability to play the game?

The more you try to push me away from my read the more I will stay firm on it.

No, I'm trying to figure out if this is a real read or if you're scum pushing a fake one. You say I'm playing similarly to how I did in that game but you also think me being cool about getting pushed indicates I could be town. There's a contradiction there

[Black]

I think Afrayed could be scum here. His push on me feels like something scum might do to go against the grain and I think town!Afrayed would be more willing to dig deeper into my meta to see if these feelings he has about me are exclusive to my scum games

Since we're on the topic of meta I think the two games I played with him where he was town he felt a lot more all over the place and gave off lim-bait vibes. Here he seems cool, calm, and calculated. I'm willing to believe there could be something unrelated to his alignment that may be affecting his playstyle but it definitely gives me pause

I think looking at his play this game in a vacuum it seems pretty townie but that could be attributed to him just being good at playing scum. Not sure I want to go here though since I think Dannflor has a point about vanity wagons

[Black]

This wouldn't be the first, second, or third time scum has tried to push me off of bullshit meta reasons and then refuse to reevaluate

[Black]

I don’t like this idea. To me that is not the best move for town, just a random lim on a low contributor. I appreciate there is likely scum essentially hiding in the shadows but it’s a complete shot in the dark.

Surely it’s better to lim someone specific we have some suspicion over rather than just a complete random lim?

this feels at odds with his vote on me

VOTE: proj

How? I think Project has made it clear that he's suspicious of you now

[Black]

VOTE: project

Why is project scum?

[Black]

443 ……TvT….

Dann was the one that brought up TvT. I was asking him about his read

I'll respond to the rest later, I have to go for a bit

[Black]

What I will ask you, is this; and I’d like you to really consider what I am saying, based on the games we have played do you really think Scum me would be more collected and calm as opposed to town me? Because if you knew me you’d know that would not be the case. I have not played as scum fully yet, I had to pull out of the only game I was scum in because of personal reasons. In fact it’s the reason I pulled out of all my games about a month ago. I want in the right head space to play this game. I feel I am now. So if you are town then ok, but right now I’m still of the belief that your are not

Well the problem here is I don't know you, and you don't have any scum games for me to evaluate my read with. I know that I generally play more calm and collected as scum so I don't see why that wouldn't be the case with you. But the part you said about not being in the right headspace I can relate with. Headspace is a big factor in how I post so I get it. If you're town then I'm just asking you to do the homework necessary to confirm if your read is correct. I don't understand why you wouldn't do that if you are actually trying to sort me here

[Black]

I don't like Dannflor's vote but I only think it makes him scum if Kurtapika flips scum

Even if it's a pressure vote...why pressure someone you think is town? Especially after his whole thing about vanity wagons. He finally got traction on someone he thinks has a "very decent chance of flipping red" only to abandon it

[Black]

I don't like Dannflor's vote but I only think it makes him scum if Kurtapika flips scum

yes i singlehandedly built a 5 vote wagon on my partner just so i could hop off of it.

what

I mean yeah, if you didn't expect it to gain the momentum it did, it would make sense for you to try and find a reason to jump off instead of going for the full on bus

Do you think project is more likely to flip scum than Kurtapika?

[Black]

there are other parts of his iso i dont like too fwiw

Care to share?

it feels like you're playing to get townread instead of playing to solve. can't find the words beyond that at the moment.

I don't understand how you can look at Project's iso and come to this conclusion. He's pretty clearly trying to solve imo

I also don't think 627 is "ridiculously scummy" or even scummy at all considering his views on votes without reasons in 158

This push is kinda scummy

[Black]

Idk you can look at my ISO to see that I was actively and repeatedly *trying* to build momentum on Kurta

In a scum!you world then why would you not? You would want the push to feel believable

I don't really think this is the world we're in because I townread both you and Kurtapika but I just thought the vote felt weird considering your previous stances on everything. I'll leave it alone for now and let you cook

[Black]

VOTE: Skygazer

Really not liking this push right after she admitted that it's easy for her to come up with scumreads as scum

[Black]

it's not suspicious. i have done this many times before. i will continue to do this. in fact, judging by the join dates of the two people voting me, i have a hunch that i'll continue getting away with it, because the people that know me don't seem to be bothered enough to even press me that hard on it. maybe its problematic behavior on my part but i get away with it because i'm funny.

I'm also just not vibing with this thought at all. It gives me the vibe of "I'm too good at this to be caught"

[Black]

but i think project is more than capable of defending himself and i'd rather see him do that than someone else, thanks.

I mean Project is my top townread so I'm going to raise my eyebrows when someone pushes that for reasons I don't think are valid. But ok I'll take a step back for now

[Black]

but i think project is more than capable of defending himself and i'd rather see him do that than someone else, thanks.

I mean Project is my top townread so I'm going to raise my eyebrows when someone pushes that for reasons I don't think are valid. But ok I'll take a step back for now

i feel like we've both seen examples of scum newbies getting passes for posting a lot of words and looking solvey at the surface level. it happens a lot. so i don't see why you think my reasons aren't valid.

You're not going to convince anyone that he's just trying to look solvey until you point out specific posts that gave you this feeling. I could point to several instances where his thoughts feel genuine and deeper than surface level. I think you should have this discussion with Project though, not me. Like I said I'll take a step back here and let that happen

[Black]

Could you explain this logic more? I'm not sure it tracks. Kurtapika is voting Skygazer here, while Dann's voting a person pushing Skygazer. If anything I think Dann only flips scum here if Skygazer does

Hmmm yeah, I can see where you're coming from. I guess I never really consider the chainsaw defense because I never do it as scum. Not consciously at least. I'm more prone to bussing and then trying to back off before I run my partner over which is why my mind went straight to that with Dann

[Black]

not contributing can certainly appear to be not townie, sure. but if i were scum, don't you think i'd be more worried about optics? how do you think i would stand to benefit from what i'm doing if i were scum?

this was honestly exactly what i was thinking- went in adhd, noted sky seemed incredibly unconcerned and then now that sky has used this exact defense it's a little bit less credible in my mind, especially since they currently seem to be arguing with black(?)

defending myself is scummy now? ppl are sus at me for not caring about the game and then get sus for me caring about the game? there's no winning huh

I'm not sus of you because you're caring about the game. It's more what you're choosing to care about. You jump in and immediately attack one of the two people voting you and you may disagree but I don't think the reasons are very good. Idk to me it all just felt like you setting up a big stage so you could explain to everyone that they shouldn't be scumreading you here

[Black]

The frustration in 667 reads town to me

[Black]

but i think project is more than capable of defending himself and i'd rather see him do that than someone else, thanks.

I mean Project is my top townread so I'm going to raise my eyebrows when someone pushes that for reasons I don't think are valid. But ok I'll take a step back for now

tbh while the burden of proof is on sky, i'd argue this feels like a genuine push? particularly the tidbit about commenting on dann's vote and labelling it a "pressure vote"

It could be yeah. I don't really agree with the pressure vote thing though. I can see why town!project would assume that and verbalize it

[Black]

707 kinda feels like an overjustification and I don't understand the flip on Kurta in 713. I'm curious about your Kurta read progression here Dann

[Black]

Like right now you're picking a fight with town Dann. I don't feel like we have to use time just because we have it. When we get cohesion, flip scum, next day. Chop chop chop.

can you explain why projectry is town

Transparent town thought process. Stands up for what they believe in. Tonally good. Reads noob good town.

Yep

[Black]

Yes Dann brought up the TvT but you automatically assumed he was talking about you and I. But he corrected you and said he was referring to you and him. so ok is it a slip?

Well if you are town then at that moment in time you had either a thought that I was town, or otherwise surely you might have challenged Dann's statement along the lines of, "How do you know it is TvT?" What would scum Black had done or said as opposed to what Town Black would have said, I don't know, which underlines my question to you about your play style. Yes yes the question came before 443

I think you are looking at this wrong. The first paragraph in 443 was me "challenging" Dann. It should be clear from that paragraph that I didn't like this take at all and I asked him about it so I could gauge his response. It turns out I just misinterpreted

[Black]

Yes Dann brought up the TvT but you automatically assumed he was talking about you and I. But he corrected you and said he was referring to you and him. so ok is it a slip?

Well if you are town then at that moment in time you had either a thought that I was town, or otherwise surely you might have challenged Dann's statement along the lines of, "How do you know it is TvT?" What would scum Black had done or said as opposed to what Town Black would have said, I don't know, which underlines my question to you about your play style. Yes yes the question came before 443

I think you are looking at this wrong. The first paragraph in 443 was me "challenging" Dann. It should be clear from that paragraph that I didn't like this take at all and I asked him about it so I could gauge his response. It turns out I just misinterpreted

ok. I see that but you did think he was talking about you and me. I'm not convince I m looking at it wrongly, its a way of looking at it, is what I am trying to say.

You said "if you were town surely you would have challenged Dann's statement". Then I point out that I challenged Dann's statement. Then you say you're not convinced you're looking at it wrong

Ok dude

[Black]

For the note, my pocket SR has used a rhetorical device I commonly use as scum and done at least one blatant pocket attempt

What's the point of posting this? Are you trying to give your SR hints that it could be them? Keep it to yourself and make your case when you reveal who it is

[Black]

I'm not anxious I'm annoyed

Kurta is still town

[Black]

For the note, my pocket SR has used a rhetorical device I commonly use as scum and done at least one blatant pocket attempt

What's the point of posting this? Are you trying to give your SR hints that it could be them? Keep it to yourself and make your case when you reveal who it is

Crumbing a read is fine. I want the papertrail for when I drop the read.

What do you think of K's response?

What's the point of putting down a papertrail for yourself? Are you worried people won't believe your reasonings unless you crumb them?

You say you want the SR to think you townread them so they will bus but then you give hints about who it is. It doesn't make sense to me. If they figure out it's them then they're not going to do what you want and you ruined your whole experiment

[Black]

VOTE: Afrayed Knott

Kinda just tired of this dude and I think there's a decent chance he flips scum

Someone wagon this with me

[Black]

That's fine. I'm not God. But instead I force them into an untenable position. No one should be annoyed at someone who isn't bothering them. I kinda get the feeling they won't bus by their posting anyway.

I'm not annoyed at you

[Black]

I'm not anxious I'm annoyed

Kurta is still town

That's fine. I'm not God. But instead I force them into an untenable position. No one should be annoyed at someone who isn't bothering them. I kinda get the feeling they won't bus by their posting anyway.

I'm not annoyed at you

What?

I was annoyed from my conversation with Afrayed and it bled into 777

Why do you think I'm anxious?

[Black]

How did you read 777 as worrisome?

[Black]

Because you care who it is.

I mean yeah I'm curious who it could be but I'm not worried about it. I'm not sure how you glean that from me telling you to stop crumbing

[Black]

Titus seems town

What makes you think this? I felt that earlier but it has kinda weakened lately. Her last 40 posts have been about K + T3 + mystery partner and she townreads the other 10 players which kinda seems like a town tunnel but I can see a world where Titus is just using this theory as a way to seem busy. It doesn't really feel like she's trying to solve anyone. I would expect her to engage with Kurtapika at some point considering he's her biggest SR but she doesn't seem to have any interest in doing that

[Black]

I just realized Afrayed is V/LA

It's probably not the best time to wagon him but I'm keeping my vote here for now

[Black]

Titus seems town

What makes you think this? I felt that earlier but it has kinda weakened lately. Her last 40 posts have been about K + T3 + mystery partner and she townreads the other 10 players which kinda seems like a town tunnel but I can see a world where Titus is just using this theory as a way to seem busy. It doesn't really feel like she's trying to solve anyone. I would expect her to engage with Kurtapika at some point considering he's her biggest SR but she doesn't seem to have any interest in doing that

My biggest SR is the last person I want to engage with. It gives them the opportunity to look town. Doubly so when it's the absence of things that's scummy.

I guess that makes sense. I think I just find the conviction in your read and lack of interaction unnatural but it's probably just a playstyle clash

[Black]

@mod: I'll be v/la until Monday

[Black]

My issue that black said she didn't like being metad and then referred to meta when saying about being defensive, which she just....is being

Using meta in some capacity is fine. Using it as the sole reason for a vote, and only comparing two games, is what annoys me.

[Black]

I don't think it really makes sense for Black to be hard townreading Kurtapika but also be constantly considering possible partners

My TR got a bit weaker after 463 and 468 so I'm not sure why this is an issue?

(not to mention the fact that her associative read between me and Kurtapika makes 0 amount of sense and I feel was just thrown out there to put something out there)

I've soft-bussed my teammates in over half of my scum games. It makes sense that I would get suspicious over someone else trying to do that

[Black]

Spoiler: me soft bussing my partner btw

as far as kurtapika goes...

simply put i think his posts revolve far more around justifying himself and seem more concerned with the optics of how he comes off than they revolve around actually trying to sort through the playerlist and figure out who is scum

the move to vote skygazer reinforces this thought

I feel that kurtapika just way overjustified this move so that it would seem like a towny pro-town move, when I think town!kurtapika would be more concerned with actually pressuring skygazer (or anyone) than justifying his move there

I don't think this can just be explained by kurtapika coming from a different style of mafia game because they've certainly shown an understanding that this is a reaction-based meta and shown that they can form reads/observations based on those reactions

I would appreciate it if people who think I am likely to be town would also vote kurtapika

we haven't had an actual wagon of more than like 3 votes take off and I think kurtapika is someone who has a very decent chance of flipping red

Kurtapika > T3 > Black

these are dannflor approved wagons in about the order i feel comfortable wagoning them

kurtapika's 335 is good

no it's really not

He is verbose in a lot of what he's saying so it seems consistent at least, still no way to tell if it's personality or not. I don't understand why you don't think townies can be worried about their optics? If he's town and he notices a wagon forming on him I think it's normal to want to seem townie in his responses

so, a lot of mafia (read: scum) player's first priority is to look town. This makes sense since their win condition depends on surviving until the end of the game and looking more town (or less scummy) than enough other people is the most straightforward way to do this.

town's first priority is to find and kill scum. town are not necessarily as prone to worry about surviving because they can win posthumously as long as the scum are found and deaded.

obviously this is a massive oversimplification and townies do obviously want to look town as well (and there are other complications as well)

BUT town's first priority is generally not to look town, it's to find scum. my general feeling is that kurta's posts were more designed to prioritize the former which i view as more likely to come from scum.

Maybe I'm using the wrong term but I'm referring to making your teammate look like scum but eventually finding a way to push something else. So yeah I got paranoid about that after you hopped off the wagon to vote someone you previously townread right after complaining about vanity wagons

[Black]

Maybe I'm not wording it right. Or reading right. I saw knot call out your defensiveness, which I also see, and then you specifically asked whether you were like that in the open game?

At the time I was trying to determine if Afrayed's read was real or not. I explained it in 603. He said he started doubting his read when he pushed me because I was chill, but in the Open game I was chill when being pushed and I was scum, so it didn't make sense that he would think "being chill when pushed" = town!Black

[Black]

I would rather go T3 over Kurta

Will try to catch up tomorrow

[Black]

VOTE: T3

[Black]

also i figured i shoudl elaborate on my hot take: kurta seems scummy to me, t3 and kurta seem partnered (titus talked about this), kurta and black are VERY clearly partnered

I don't understand this...didn't you have me as a townread? Why am I linked to Kurta fypov?

[Black]

My main issue with T3 is that it felt like he had solving energy until he got wagoned and then he went V/LA for 5 days. It's very possible he was just busy but I can't help but be paranoid that it might have been an attempt to deflate the pressure. I don't really like his posting from over the weekend and I just get the vibe that he's trying to start any counterwagon possible with the attack on Aisa and then asking OWER to explain his Skygazer read in 923. If I were town in T3's shoes I would be trying a lot harder here

[Black]

My main issue with T3 is that it felt like he had solving energy until he got wagoned and then he went V/LA for 5 days. It's very possible he was just busy but I can't help but be paranoid that it might have been an attempt to deflate the pressure. I don't really like his posting from over the weekend and I just get the vibe that he's trying to start any counterwagon possible with the attack on Aisa and then asking OWER to explain his Skygazer read in 923. If I were town in T3's shoes I would be trying a lot harder here

i finished a game not too long ago where T3 and i were scum together and i don't remember him doing this; he seemed quite comfy as scum. but i'm not sure how much pressure he had on him.

Could you link this game? I've never seen scum T3. I've seen him as town a couple times and iirc he felt more...relaxed? Calculated? Like he actually wanted to solve instead of deferring to "you're scum because you voted me" like he's doing with Aisa. I don't remember him being so defensive in the games I played with him

[Black]

Oh this is the miller game

[Black]

I skimmed over page 2 of his ISO and I did see some defensiveness over a couple of votes on him. I remember him being pretty calm when being run up in Open 885. I wanted to see if he reacted that way in BooneyToonz but looking through the VCs it doesn't seem like he ever got legitimately pushed in that game

I don't really have the motivation to pick through this in more detail just to solidify a meta read that may or may not be accurate

[Black]

My main issue with T3 is that it felt like he had solving energy until he got wagoned and then he went V/LA for 5 days. It's very possible he was just busy but I can't help but be paranoid that it might have been an attempt to deflate the pressure. I don't really like his posting from over the weekend and I just get the vibe that he's trying to start any counterwagon possible with the attack on Aisa and then asking OWER to explain his Skygazer read in 923. If I were town in T3's shoes I would be trying a lot harder here

i finished a game not too long ago where T3 and i were scum together and i don't remember him doing this; he seemed quite comfy as scum. but i'm not sure how much pressure he had on him.

In the past as both alignments when I've gotten significant pressure I've just ghosted - the reason why I ghosted after being pushed by Dannflor in the first place was because i was genuinely busy IRL.

You didn't ghost when being run up in Open 885. You were actually pretty active through it

[Black]

Re:above: Fair - fwiw, in Open 835 I had fight the urge not to ghost.

If you are town can you fight that urge and start doing stuff?

How caught up are you and what do your reads look like?

[Black]

"you're scum because you voted me" like he's doing with Aisa.

I don't think I'm doing that? I've explained my reasoning and I'm not sure what's wrong with said reasoning.

I agree that Aisa's vote and then separate justification of it doesn't look great but it feels like one of those optics arguments people try to make when they say town don't care about how their votes look. They can and they do, and I think certain personalities are more prone to this than others. Are there any other reasons you scumread her?

[Black]

Yeah I'm curious about that too

In 895 you called me out for "weird shade" (which wasn't shade at all btw) and then at the bottom you said you were considering a Black scumread. What changed?

[Black]

why is black your top town read?

I really liked her vote in 512 and especially that it wasn't LAMIST. I initially thought that a large number of Black's reads were weird and agenda-y but when I looked at Backup6 I didn't get that sense at all.

That's it? One vote that doesn't feel LAMIST and a meta read?

[Black]

Meh. I'm not really convinced by this

I think T3 makes the most sense here but I would be willing to go sky or Afrayed

[Black]

Project or T3 are fine votes, could also do black

Sorry, having one of those weeks and it's only Monday

I could go sky. Sorry, having a bit of a shit few days, more engaged content soon

If you are fine with project/T3/Black/sky then why are you still voting kurta? Also what is your read on sky? I don't think you have mentioned them at all before now

(no rush, I hope you feel better <3)

[Black]

also i figured i shoudl elaborate on my hot take: kurta seems scummy to me, t3 and kurta seem partnered (titus talked about this), kurta and black are VERY clearly partnered

I don't understand this...didn't you have me as a townread? Why am I linked to Kurta fypov?

I did townread you before, but as shadow shifted up I felt I wasn't getting those distinct town vibes from you anymore so I found I was more unsure about you.
I don't think you're neccesarily scum, but I think that if Kurta flips scum, you will almost certainly also flip scum. You've basiclaly been townreading and defending Kurta the entire game, and since I've never seen Kurta in such a towny light I just don't buy what you say.

I defend players I think are town. I'm willing to admit I could be wrong about Kurta but I don't understand how townreading him makes us guaranteed partners? Do you not think townies can be wrong about people?

Why do you scumread him?

[Black]

i trust T3 actually

VOTE: Skygazer

Why?

What are your thoughts on Kurtapika?

[Black]

I've been thinking Titus could be scum here and I like this case from T3. I'm on board with this

VOTE: Titus

[Black]

That case is extremely weak-sauce and I think the T3/Black partner theory gains more merit by the post.

Why is Titus town?

[Black]

T3 maybe, but I'm town

So do you have any other reasons or...?

[Black]

I'm more interested in your thoughts about Titus in a world where one or both of me/T3 are town because you're at least wrong about that. If you don't want to share them then that's fine

[Black]

Most of all, I think if either you or Black were town here you'd simply ask me what I disagreed with in the case, and try to sell me on a Titus wagon further. Instead, Black asks a loaded question and you dance around with WIFOM-y "Why would I do this" questions. It doesn't feel like either of you are actually trying to engage me genuinely and you're instead simply trying to divert pressure.

I've already explained why Titus could be scum. And it wasn't a loaded question...you made it pretty clear you townread Titus by agreeing to sheep her theory

So assume for a few seconds that me and T3 aren't partnered. Why is Titus town?

[Black]

Speaking of 915, the logic here doesn't really track. You're willing to sheep Titus on T3 but she's pushing him based mainly on associations with Kurta, but in this post you say Kurta is probably a mislim?

[Black]

Because I think her Kurta push has been genuine, and the solve that she's presented feels genuine and has some sound logic behind it.

I disagree. She's purposely avoiding answering his questions and I have a feeling it's because she's afraid it might make him look townier. She's not willing to reconsider her read at all or even solve outside of the read. It doesn't feel genuine or in good faith

I specifically said I was sheeping Titus AND Dannflor in that post. You're blatantly misrepping me now.

I'm not blatantly misrepping you but I did overlook that

[Black]

Why is T3 town, Black?

I'm not convinced he is. I do think his post on Titus resonated with me because I've been low-key suspicious of her for a little while now and it's a wagon I'm willing to explore

[Black]

I suppose T3 could have picked up on that but if that's the case then I don't understand why he wouldn't just vote skygazer here

[Black]

thanks black i just sat there reloading the thread for like three minutes

Alianna would be proud

[Black]

Hmm. I think there's partner equity in Titus/OWER. OWER barely mentioned her at all before the wagon formed on her. The same goes for Titus --> OWER. They had one interaction with 140/152 that could have easily been staged

[Black]

Titus being stubborn feels exactly like how it was when I played with her the two other times I did so. Granted both of those times were 3 years ago, so perhaps my meta is a bit out of date. But Titus's post ring to me more like tunneled/confident town rather than agenda-pushing maf.

Why did you wait until she was being pushed to share this read?

[Black]

Hmm. I think there's partner equity in Titus/OWER. OWER barely mentioned her at all before the wagon formed on her. The same goes for Titus --> OWER. They had one interaction with 140/152 that could have easily been staged

I thought so too but I'm not quite sure, mainly because I don't know if OWER would treat Titus that way in the whole sheep thing recently.

What do you mean?

I can't help but think of Mini Normal 2316 that just ended where OWER forgot to give reads on his scum buddy Shea until someone called him out on it. Then suddenly he was like "oh yeah Shea is town"

[Black]

Just going to highlight Black's shift on me happens when I out she's my scumread.

Nice misrep. My shift on you happened in 793

The random suggestion that me and OutWorldER are scum is weird.

No I don't think so

[Black]

The random suggestion that me and OutWorldER are scum is weird.

I find it a little weird too but I don't see why scum!Black does this at all. What is scum!Black's endgame here? Pocketing me?

How is it weird if you said you thought it could be them too?

[Black]

The random suggestion that me and OutWorldER are scum is weird.

I find it a little weird too but I don't see why scum!Black does this at all. What is scum!Black's endgame here? Pocketing me?

How is it weird if you said you thought it could be them too?

Never mind, for some reason I hallucinated you calling OWER/Titus a pair earlier than you actually did

Uh...what? It literally just happened? And how would the timing change the fact that you agreed with it?

You calling the read weird doesn't make sense in any context here

[Black]

It inherently presumes that because I disagreed with your post that I have a townread on the person you were pushing. And as I said before, the presumption was true!

I already thought you townread her based on you sheeping her though. I can agree with your point about that not necessarily meaning you do but it doesn't change the fact that I still had that feeling

[Black]

The fact that neither of you asked me to justify the mystery player suggests you believed I was genuine all along (which I was).

I wanted you to stop crumbing about the mystery player because it didn't make sense for you to do that according to your plan in 723

And yeah I townread your preflip stuff at first but I assumed you would start solving outside of that at some point. When you said you townread everyone except for your solve that's when I started to think you could be scum

[Black]

Also like...what? 10 townreads and 3 scumreads? No null? No leans? I know I lack conviction in a lot of my reads but this level of conviction is unbelievable to me

[Black]

Intent

If this flips town I'm deathtunneling Titus tomorrow

[Black]

I am admittedly not at all caught up, so going backwards/random posts:

Intent

If this flips town I'm deathtunneling Titus tomorrow

Why specifically Titus? She's been reading T3 as scum for a while, so may be missing something based on not having read yet but want your answer anyway.

The only way I'll townread Titus is if T3 flips scum here. You can look at my ISO to see why I scumread her if you want

I'll be hammering this shortly unless anyone has any objections

[Black]

Oh I guess he wasn't e-1 anyway

[Black]

VOTE: black

Go on

[Black]

You saying things like "The only way I'll townread Titus is if T3 flips scum here" does not make me think you are genuinely trying to solve anyone's alignment here. Idk. All of your posting recently reads like you're positioning around certain reads, I don't get the sense you actually believe in anything.

I really don't think any townie thinks about the game like that?

I make these statements as town sometimes. I don't know what to tell you. I did it in the game you just modded and also games where you played with me so I'm surprised you have this thought

But, I don't feel it makes sense for you to say that T3's red flip is the *only* way you'd ever town read Titus.

Meh. I tend to let my emotions interfere with my logic sometimes. I was annoyed with Titus's 1042 and 1043 because she's either tunneling town or throwing shade as scum and neither of those things make me particularly happy about her

Like, if Titus suddenly started towning it up through other means it seems like you've already positioned yourself to push Titus regardless of any other event in the game. It feels wholly political.

If Titus is town then she has ignored the entire playerbase to push a solve that isn't correct. That's annoying, and it's even more annoying that people are giving her a pass for it. If I need to be flipped in order for people to realize she's not doing anything productive then so be it

There's also just the fact that you're seemingly fine with like anything that happens. You're kinda saying you buy T3's case on Titus but also you think there's a good chance T3 is scum given that you seem fine with killing him. But you're also clearly prepping for T3 to flip town?

I don't think it's scummy to consider I could be wrong about T3

Clearly no one agrees on your Afrayed Knott read but you seem kind of unbothered by that fact.

What read? The meta read? It's not a strong read so yeah I'm not really bothered that people don't agree with it

I feel that you keep avoiding interacting me as much as you might if you were town. This is part of the reason I asked if you were intentionally playing differently this game.

To be honest, I think town!Black would have found a reason to scum read me by now and genuinely paranoia pushed me, even if for a hot second. This game it kinda feels like you are skirting around me for some reason? You keep kind half shading me by linking my with Kurtapika or something or rather and despite the fact I'm hard pushing a hard town read of yours I am still a top town read for you - with no paranoia? It just all feels off and I think you just flip scum

shrug

You're townie af. I was paranoid for a second but even that didn't last long. I think it's unfair to assume I would continue to scumread you as we play more and more games together and I'm able to get a better grasp on your town game

[Black]

VOTE: Black

yolo

I like this more than T3. I still think the way Black engaged me felt off

This could definitely be scum. Sky hasn't done much outside of defend herself and join the leading wagons

[Black]

can i get a summary of where your reads are at?

i don't really have a sense of where you're at except scum reading titus

but you're not even voting titus anymore

I'm voting Titus

Project
Dannflor

Kurtapika
Jupiter
Aisa

shaddow
CCS
Bellaphant
OWER

Afrayed
T3

Sky
Titus

This is probably where I'm at rn

[Black]

VOTE: Black

yolo

I like this more than T3. I still think the way Black engaged me felt off

This could definitely be scum. Sky hasn't done much outside of defend herself and join the leading wagons

i think the latter portion is not true? i was on smaller wagons for awhile literally up until i voted kurtapika (if i even voted kurtapika, can't remember). T3 was a consolidation vote that I didn't prefer.

I mean you OMGUS voted Project and then you moved to T3 and now me, conveniently in line with the way the thread has shifted

[Black]

so there's this thing called "consolidating votes..."

Yeah and typically there's some solving intertwined in there but we haven't gotten much of that from you

[Black]

I question why you say you will only town read Titus if T3 flips scum, but T3 flipping scum seems pretty likely to you given your reads? or do you think there is also a chance they are bussing?

I won't be sure about Titus's alignment until I know what T3 flips. I don't really think Titus would bus so strongly here so if T3 flips scum then Titus would skyrocket up my reads

[Black]

i think if black actually thought i was scummy here she would consolidate onto me instead of keeping her useless 24 hours left titus vote

the fact i'm this strong of a scumread and shes not voting me makes me think shes worried about looking oppurtunistic

VOTE: Skygazer

[Black]

Please at least consider Titus tomorrow

[Black]

lol

I'm not worried about looking opportunistic when I'm on my death bed, I just wasn't thinking about my vote atm

Titus/sky/x

[Black]

Maybe just OWER but I think he's been relatively townie outside of the Titus association and this solve would require him to bus Sky which I'm not sure he would do here

[Black]

VOTE: Black

[Black]

ggwp! Jupiter you did great! Nice job getting all the way to the end. What a long game

Thank you shadd for modding!

[Black]

Jupiter you did great!

All of the scumteam’s woes in this game can be directly traced back to me suggesting that Black and I push Titus together

TRUE

Jupiter honestly I feel like

we

lost this game for

you

If it wasn't for our dumb move I think we could have won. You did your best to try and salvage it though!

[Black]

ggs

sorry for getting heated at the end of the game

I think that turned the tide tbh. Well played

And well played Pookie. You came in solving like crazy. I completely understand the paranoia thing you had going on with OWER. You were able to pull yourself out of that and made the right call