Mini Normal 2329: complex. [game over!]

[Psyche]

sry drew we literally have never been homies but rather secret enemies. frankly you will never work in a chicago law office again if i have anything to say about it

[Psyche]

clout pls this is our first game together how will we be able to savor it when your posts read like a mesh between boomhauer from king of the hill and one of the spies from spy vs spy

VOTE: political clout

[Psyche]

pls like two more pages of rvs shitposting im having a bad day and playing mafia games is the only reliable way to get people to talk to me since league of legends moved to having in team chat turned off my default

[Psyche]

it’s settled my political clout scumread is sincere and now im not allowed to attempt any more jokes for the rest of the game

[Psyche]

im genuinely seriouss
literally every post so far pings me
in line with tradition ill explain ex posto facto in a few pages

[Psyche]

also i probably have to disclose that i have covid since i sense im behaving more delirously than normal. at a given moment my skin either feels like hot soup or electrified hot soup

[Psyche]

very slightly! i scumlean nurse too

[Psyche]

hey everybody come take a look at the adult in the room here to tell us about his very slight townread and scoff ar the game’s menagerie of clowns

[Psyche]

wait don’t tell me RN is like roleplaying or something

[Psyche]

sry menagerie is the wrong word but it’s literally the first time it’s occurred to me while writing a sentence

[Psyche]

I really am done being silly, sorry for spam.

VOTE: random nurse

[Psyche]

kind of surprised that rn is this kind of person

[Psyche]

VOTE: Clout

[Psyche]

from the feeling so threatened by a page 3 wagon that you burn a PR to the selfvote+"Eliminate me and vote her out tomorrow!" the whole playerlist seems awfully melodramatic this game

[Psyche]

It is worth the sacrifice to get 1 scum out the game. But only if it is agreed that she is the elimination tomorrow

that's really dumb! why would anyone agree to that? has an entire town ever agreed to that?

[Psyche]

9 times out of 10 the person who is mislimmed D1 is completely forgotten and ignored past the first page of D2. i feel like you must have been in enough games by now to know this

[Psyche]

from the feeling so threatened by a page 3 wagon that you burn a PR to the selfvote+"Eliminate me and vote her out tomorrow!" the whole playerlist seems awfully melodramatic this game

It is worth the sacrifice to get 1 scum out the game. But only if it is agreed that she is the elimination tomorrow

that's really dumb! why would anyone agree to that? has an entire town ever agreed to that?

9 times out of 10 the person who is mislimmed D1 is completely forgotten and ignored past the first page of D2. i feel like you must have been in enough games by now to know this

This is all just fluff.

none of those posts were fluff

[Psyche]

PC vote was rvs imo, but psyche´s yours and geraintm´s? All those votes are sus. I just feel the worst about yours but the other 2 will certainly get their due aswell.
The thing is, me as townie would never put my RVS vote on person that already has 2 votes or more.It feels like a tree trying to hide itselrf in a forest

- do you have reason to think that other players follow this policy?
- my vote was not RVS

[Psyche]

that didnt answer my question at all!

[Psyche]

43/45 are me justifying my RN vote
the tone of his post read as disingenuous and badly pretending to be substantial / the adult in the room

[Psyche]

"me as townie would never put my RVS vote on person that already has 2 votes or more"

im trying to figure out why this disclosure about how you play mafia haa anything to do with how you interpret other players' play

[Psyche]

i knew what i wanted to say and said exactly all those things. that conversation w hu tao was probing the rationale and/or sincerity behind the self vote.

[Psyche]

can someone who is not clout tell me if the purpose behind those posts was not as obvious as it seems to me?

[Psyche]

the person who asked me to justify my RN sry im mobile rn

[Psyche]

i knew what i wanted to say and said exactly all those things. that conversation w hu tao was probing the rationale and/or sincerity behind the self vote.

What was your conclusion

i still can't understand how someone w hu tao's professed beliefs/personality exists in this world. it's a very incoherent sequence set in between an otherwise clear-thinking iso. when the read is not ambivalent, i'll announce it like a normal person.

[Psyche]

the way you're framing the question feels like something mafia would say tho.

"why is this person's vote not as bad as mine" feels like something mafia say when they feel like they are being unfairly targeted when they think their play is the same as everyone else.

truth be told I voted you because you had the most votes and you had a sus looking hop on to the wagon, I didn't really bother trying to figure out which vote on the wagon was the most sus or whatever, I just saw two votes on you, checked your iso and decided it was a decent place to start.

This post is a banger

I actually really disagree.
"why is this person's vote not as bad as mine" is a useful sorting question.
it's only scummy if you can only interpret the post as someone complaining about being suspected

[Psyche]

221 did make me townlead aristeia though
and im not calling a question like "why is this person's vote not as bad as mine" town-indicative
i'm just saying 221's not a great argument that it's scummy

[Psyche]

how is it a useful sorting question?

if anything I feel like its setting up framing for a debate on which of these votes were the "scummiest"

which is like ? to me. like if there's multiple scummy looking votes you have to start somewhere and sort them one by one no?

a rough rule of thumb is that questions about people's reads posed in a relatively odd way make for good sorting questions

[Psyche]

clout's post is too big for me to reply from mobile. just gonna say i think it's bunk and full of misreadings

[Psyche]

I wonder what kind of heat Scum's packing this game.

I'm surprised there's an IC in this game, so Scum is probably packing heat?

VOTE: KeyLaga

Afrayed Knott

Random Nurse

,

Mafia Goon

, executed Day 3

VOTE: Random Nurse

my eyes sort of glaze over when i see people quoting posts from other threads but this post is notably effortful though also a very neat demonstration of the havoc that metatells can wreak w/o a statistically representative sample

[Psyche]

clout's post is too big for me to reply from mobile. just gonna say i think it's bunk and full of misreadings

I'm willing to let it go and say I was wrong if you answer what side that interaction landed hu tao in more scum or more town and why?

im going to decide after a full re-read i'm working on. there has got to be enough in the thread to positively sort them by this point imo

[Psyche]

im going to unvote because i don't like having a vote on someone i am not actively trying to kill but not because i've dropped my weak dooky scumread on clout that everyone seems to think was a joke

UNVOTE:

[Psyche]

Probably 2 Scum on my wagon. Could be just 1. Assuming there's 3 I'm thinking for sure 1 maybe 2 were off my wagon.

at this point just round up and call it a solved game

[Psyche]

My blind spot here, though, is that I have a feeling many people here have played together before and can pick up on things that go completely unnoticed by me. I worry this also brings meta reads that might mean absolutely nothing.

you'll be fine the vast majority of meta reads can be safely ignored

[Psyche]

do you really think RN was close to being limmed?
ugh i guess some people did

[Psyche]

think a kay townread is a little optimistic but ultimately harmless

[Psyche]

do you really think RN was close to being limmed?
ugh i guess some people did

RN was at e-2 and the 4th/5th votes were openly goading for a quicklim on page three of the game.

54
69
71

well, you've convinced me that you really think this

[Psyche]

that plus the one hu tao post outlining a meta motive for rn's ic drop makes the thread much easier to read i think; i don't feel so inclined to look at people searching for opportunistic scum on RN's wagon like they're aliens

[Psyche]

If Hu goes to L-1 I'll hammer.

lowkey hypocritical

[Psyche]

my covid days are over so now i build my ouvre

[Psyche]

I am never this confident in a scumread. And people complain that I should out reasons for my scumreads more. So when I finally do it, people just ignore it and scumread me instead. Such a silly game sometimes :lol:

maybe skip the self vote next time. for the sake of clarity or smth

[Psyche]

VOTE: Naerys
i am out of here, bye

ok i am not vibing w this playerlist at all

[Psyche]

i already explained my read on clout

[Psyche]

She's just contradicting herself a lot of times this game. That = scum

just reads like something someone new to mafia would think makes a scumtell

[Psyche]

i swear the only thing that miffs me more than random self votes is the "D1 is a crapshoot" crowd

[Psyche]

She's just contradicting herself a lot of times this game. That = scum

:lol: and then i flip green and Hu´s confidence crumbles to dust

This implies you know I'm town but you're saying I'm scum

how recently has naeyrs even called hu tao scum? she barely even blinked when tao selfvoted

[Psyche]

if i learned my success rate at limming scum D1 were rand i'd keep looking for ways to get better at the game but i guess some people just self vote and wait for the smoke to clear

[Psyche]

ouch you nailed me on the thing im most insecure about, my arrogance

[Psyche]

part of me wants hu tao to be scum but they're right about too many things they don't really need to be right about

[Psyche]

notascum's iso genuinely is scummy as hell
basing that hu tao vote on that wiki page which is very careful to underscore that self-voting is not a proven scumtell strikes me as incredibly unserious and inconsistent w the idea of a person who would treat the mafia wiki like a read-making bible

[Psyche]

the page provides an entire system for classifying self-votes and explains in detail how each type of self vote could come from scum

or

from town.

then the only sentence from which it can be gleaned that anyone thinks self-voting is a scumtell is:
"While this practice is commonly seen as scum-indicative, no data has been compiled on the actual effectiveness of self-voting as a towntell or a scumtell."
this is arguably the most disapproving way that a writer could conceivably share that information without openly abandoning wikipedia's editorial guidelines

but someone clinging to the mafia wiki for dear life took the exact opposite message home?
it does not pass the smell test

[Psyche]

can't we save the relational stuff for like

[Psyche]

also it's not the pulling out the wiki that's scummy
it's the fiction that the slot decided to vote hu tao based on the content of that wiki

[Psyche]

i literally make an entire second post elaborating on the second one and people are still misunderstanding the case. i must be hopeless

[Psyche]

just bc of that if notascum flips mafia im giving davesaz a hard time next

[Psyche]

yeah yeah tell it to the judge

[Psyche]

think Gera's vote was p bad too

I think it's explainable by gera actively inviting the end of D1 in every game and RN being the largest wagon

wow you are like a meta encyclopedia

[Psyche]

i could have told a more entertaining simile there

[Psyche]

the page provides an entire system for classifying self-votes and explains in detail how each type of self vote could come from scum

or

from town.

then the only sentence from which it can be gleaned that anyone thinks self-voting is a scumtell is:
"While this practice is commonly seen as scum-indicative, no data has been compiled on the actual effectiveness of self-voting as a towntell or a scumtell."
this is arguably the most disapproving way that a writer could conceivably share that information without openly abandoning wikipedia's editorial guidelines

but someone clinging to the mafia wiki for dear life took the exact opposite message home?
it does not pass the smell test

also it's not the pulling out the wiki that's scummy
it's the fiction that the slot decided to vote hu tao based on the content of that wiki

VOTE: notascum

i think this is it, the easy D1 slam dunk that even this town deserves
i will try really hard not to be too obnoxious about how shitty every other wagon is by comparison

[Psyche]

If there is a Vigilante this game, I'd suggest vigging NotAScum. They seem like new scum.

move ur dang vote vig has better things to do with their time

[Psyche]

yeah i don't believe you

[Psyche]

but someone clinging to the mafia wiki for dear life took the exact opposite message home?
it does not pass the smell test

I think I mentioned before that HT jumping on RN wagon looked opportunistic. Couple that with that self-vote, it looks really scummy.

and still doesn't credibly explain why you think self-votes are scummy in the first place. you certainly didn't pick that belief up from the wiki you linked

[Psyche]

ill get to her ill get to her
and clout too

[Psyche]

showerthought: rn is a more certain townread than myself right now because it's been longer since i read my role pm thank you i'll be here all Day

[Psyche]

I mentioned self-vote on its own doesn't mean much. But when you've this possible scum who jumped on the RN train and then a train starts forming on them, they could use the self-vote to subdue it.

is just really wild to read when the vote for hu tao was in this post:

I'm so confident Naerys flips scum this game. Eliminate me and vote her out tomorrow. I agree with this.

VOTE: hu tao

She's contradicting herself. She does this as scum. She literally I'd saying the thing she did as town last game is now scummy when I do it.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Self-voting

VOTE: Hu Tao

[Psyche]

darn it's only like 2pm and im already exhausted covid is the worst

[Psyche]

someone chiming in w something that updates your read is around 80% of why it's ever worthwhile to share a read in the first place

[Psyche]

the other 20% is to see your enemies driven before you :]

[Psyche]

i don't care who's child you are i would rather force no lim than let notascum go

[Psyche]

Could it be Naerys, Psyche, Klick?

*makes measuring gestures with hands*

what is wrong with the notascum wagon to you?

[Psyche]

only posting 5 times is not a town tell

[Psyche]

OK OK OK stop, why do you want focus shifted over onto NAS who has five posts?

because NAS is scum. i'll quote why if you want!

[Psyche]

We've got Naerys contradicting herself and refusing to respond to basic questions

these aren't scumtells. so i don't really care. why do you?

[Psyche]

i'll quote why if you want!

pls do

oh cmon i literally did this like one page ago

[Psyche]

the page provides an entire system for classifying self-votes and explains in detail how each type of self vote could come from scum

or

from town.

then the only sentence from which it can be gleaned that anyone thinks self-voting is a scumtell is:
"While this practice is commonly seen as scum-indicative, no data has been compiled on the actual effectiveness of self-voting as a towntell or a scumtell."
this is arguably the most disapproving way that a writer could conceivably share that information without openly abandoning wikipedia's editorial guidelines

but someone clinging to the mafia wiki for dear life took the exact opposite message home?
it does not pass the smell test

also it's not the pulling out the wiki that's scummy
it's the fiction that the slot decided to vote hu tao based on the content of that wiki

VOTE: notascum

i think this is it, the easy D1 slam dunk that even this town deserves
i will try really hard not to be too obnoxious about how shitty every other wagon is by comparison

I mentioned self-vote on its own doesn't mean much. But when you've this possible scum who jumped on the RN train and then a train starts forming on them, they could use the self-vote to subdue it.

is just really wild to read when the vote for hu tao was in this post:

I'm so confident Naerys flips scum this game. Eliminate me and vote her out tomorrow. I agree with this.

VOTE: hu tao

She's contradicting herself. She does this as scum. She literally I'd saying the thing she did as town last game is now scummy when I do it.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Self-voting

VOTE: Hu Tao

here's a deal for you RN:
tell me why you think notascum voted for hu tao and i'll give naeyrs attention for like a full hour or page whichever's longest

[Psyche]

naerys has self-voted. to convince me she should be scumread and not nullread i'm gonna need to give me evidence that makes it more likely that she's not just a VI. self-contradictions and not answering questions are just more VI crimes.

[Psyche]

will be a lot of egg on your face if she flips town after this "I have over 300 confirmed kills" deal...

[Psyche]

i just wanna know why you think im wrong on nas it can't really just be because he has 5 posts right aw ok ill be patient

[Psyche]

hmm what is lhf

[Psyche]

hmm it looks like you didn't read my case if you're still asking that question

[Psyche]

LHF is low hanging fruit, ie easy targets.

naeyrs is the low hanging fruit. or maybe hu tao. either of the self-voters are hanging pretty low

[Psyche]

RN. i've been in your shoes re time constraints. you should just go to sleep for now, and we can pick this up later.

[Psyche]

ill take a closer look at naeyrs like i promised

[Psyche]

I also think I'm more weary of scum being off that wagon. Scum knew RN was town so they probably soft defended to gain townie points

there were only like 2 slots that defended random nurse, why are you voting notascum as opposed to looking at them

Because I'm pretty sure he's scum. Where as I would need to look at people and decide which might be scum.

if we are thinking about relational tells then i think this post gets a lot easier to interpret once i get a notascum flip

[Psyche]

im agreeing that these slots could be scum, but i think notascum is a wayy surer deal. if when you break it down into its essence lhf just means im targetting the person who is scummiest then 1) why wouldn't someone do that and 2) why introduce such a thought-terminating idea in the first place?

[Psyche]

you've added so many posts about naeyrs/hutao but beyond saying that they're good at playing scum or have made a lot of contradictions you haven't really gotten into any details of why their posts specifically show scum win condition or deception.

[Psyche]

also still think a notascum scumflip would substantially implicate davesaz

[Psyche]

Where exactly in NAS's five posts does he weigh heavier on the scales than Naerys or Hu?

I want you to explicitly state where and why.

ive done this so many times

it's this post:

I'm so confident Naerys flips scum this game. Eliminate me and vote her out tomorrow. I agree with this.

VOTE: hu tao

She's contradicting herself. She does this as scum. She literally I'd saying the thing she did as town last game is now scummy when I do it.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Self-voting

VOTE: Hu Tao

for these reasons:

the page provides an entire system for classifying self-votes and explains in detail how each type of self vote could come from scum

or

from town.

then the only sentence from which it can be gleaned that anyone thinks self-voting is a scumtell is:
"While this practice is commonly seen as scum-indicative, no data has been compiled on the actual effectiveness of self-voting as a towntell or a scumtell."
this is arguably the most disapproving way that a writer could conceivably share that information without openly abandoning wikipedia's editorial guidelines

but someone clinging to the mafia wiki for dear life took the exact opposite message home?
it does not pass the smell test

that are elaborated on in other posts. and notascum has absolutely floundered in his attempts to engage w/ all this

[Psyche]

what is your answer to the question i asked a while ago:
why do you think notascum voted hu tao in post #183?

because i don't think the explanation he actually gave in #183 passes muster. furthermore, he has repeatedly updated his explanation for this vote every time he's been asked to provide clarification.

[Psyche]

How does that make him Scum?

He could just be Town without a peer-reviewed source you agree with.

you're misunderstanding my point
it's not the pulling out the wiki and using it to justify a vote that's scummy
it's the fact that the wiki doesn't actually justify the vote!
the wiki all but condemns the idea of treating self-votes as scummy

the key implication of all this is that

he did not come around to his vote on hu tao for the reasons he originally gave us

[Psyche]

also still think a notascum scumflip would substantially implicate davesaz

Do you have any concept of having a policy that 5 posts are not enough information to determine alignment no matter what the posts say?

i guess. it's a bad policy though, and a cop-out to the question at this point: why do you think notascum voted for hu tao?

[Psyche]

nas has "clarified" this at least twice at this point

[Psyche]

"i misread the wiki" is an explanation he has already opted against

[Psyche]

No idea what this means

It's explained in the wiki article. It's a common scumtell.

Seen plenty of dramatic townies to self vote, including myself

Which is why self-voting alone isn't enough to gauge anyone's scuminess. But Hu Tao jumped on the RN wagon, that is another tell.

Can you tell me what you gathered from that link?

Just that it's a common scumtell that has to be combined with other scumtells before reaching any conclusion.

also i want to underscore how unbelievable it should be for someone treating the wiki like a scumhunting bible to then completely miss its central theme!
someone that attached to the wiki as a guidepost should not then also be capable of so stridently misreading every word in a page they link from it!

[Psyche]

we are led in post #84 to believe that notascum saw hu tao's post, looked up self-voting on the mafiascum, and then based on his studies decided that he now had enough to justify a vote he still has laid down.
can you really look at this wiki right here and tell me that this is a likely story?

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Self-voting

[Psyche]

also still think a notascum scumflip would substantially implicate davesaz

Do you have any concept of having a policy that 5 posts are not enough information to determine alignment no matter what the posts say?

i guess. it's a bad policy though, and a cop-out to the question at this point: why do you think notascum voted for hu tao?

for the record: dave ignored a simple question on a topic he'd demonstrated plenty of interest about otherwise

[Psyche]

So you're going to hang someone for being new and wrong seems overly purist you don't play games when it comes to Mafia eh?

that's not my case at all. i'm well aware that people are wrong all the time. eg you are voting me

[Psyche]

again, my case isn't that NAS was wrong about what the wiki says.

my case is that NAS lied about how
1) he came to believe self-voting is scummy and
2) why he decided to vote for hu tao.

[Psyche]

it's not reaching. you're just undervaluing the evidence. i'd bet the game that i'm right about this. and yall will just call it a lucky guess

[Psyche]

also still think a notascum scumflip would substantially implicate davesaz

Do you have any concept of having a policy that 5 posts are not enough information to determine alignment no matter what the posts say?

i guess. it's a bad policy though, and a cop-out to the question at this point: why do you think notascum voted for hu tao?

for the record: dave ignored a simple question on a topic he'd demonstrated plenty of interest about otherwise

To be fair Naerys has basically shut down and ignored my questions but that didn't appear to bother you then, yeah?

Why make an issue of it now with Dave?

dave can't play the VI card

[Psyche]

again, my case isn't that NAS was wrong about what the wiki says.

my case is that NAS lied about how
1) he came to believe self-voting is scummy and
2) why he decided to vote for hu tao.

You extrapolated that from 5 posts?

i genuinely don't yet understand how someone couldn't

[Psyche]

also i want to underscore how unbelievable it should be for someone treating the wiki like a scumhunting bible to then completely miss its central theme!
someone that attached to the wiki as a guidepost should not then also be capable of so stridently misreading every word in a page they link from it!

What you don't seem to be making any attempt to explain, is how do you distinguish inexperience from scum in this case?
<discounting the possibility of alt, of course>

Are you asking how I am distinguishing "notascum lied" from "notascum misread the wiki"?

[Psyche]

also still think a notascum scumflip would substantially implicate davesaz

Do you have any concept of having a policy that 5 posts are not enough information to determine alignment no matter what the posts say?

i guess. it's a bad policy though, and a cop-out to the question at this point: why do you think notascum voted for hu tao?

for the record: dave ignored a simple question on a topic he'd demonstrated plenty of interest about otherwise

I missed that being a question for me.
Because Hu Tao self voted.

and how do you think he came to believe that self-voting is scummy

[Psyche]

also i want to underscore how unbelievable it should be for someone treating the wiki like a scumhunting bible to then completely miss its central theme!
someone that attached to the wiki as a guidepost should not then also be capable of so stridently misreading every word in a page they link from it!

What you don't seem to be making any attempt to explain, is how do you distinguish inexperience from scum in this case?
<discounting the possibility of alt, of course>

Are you asking how I am distinguishing "notascum lied" from "notascum misread the wiki"?

Do you think I'm defending NAS, or questioning your alignment?

I think you've been consistently evading the work of sorting NAS.

[Psyche]

I think you've been consistently evading the work of sorting NAS

My read is explicitly null, insufficient data, and I'm making no effort to hide that.

sure! but then that means you have work to do, right?

[Psyche]

im saying i doubt you're genuinely trying to do it

[Psyche]

Nothing to do until there are more posts.

20 pages so far. and you're still on klick

[Psyche]

im saying i doubt you're genuinely trying to do it

Nothing to do until there are more posts.

20 pages so far. and you're still on klick

Unrelated to NAS. If you read my posts you'll see I'm working on plenty of stuff.

yah yah. you've got time, and i might be wrong about you at least.

[Psyche]

can someone who cares about setups give me a rough guess of how many scum there are this time? complex doesn't have a set number for 13 players right?

[Psyche]

ill assume 3 whatever

[Psyche]

RN if you don't go to sleep and it's all my fault i dont know what ill do w myself

[Psyche]

KayJayQueue at least deserves to win so let’s just give her the townread. an innocent child in spirit.

[Psyche]

are you still here

[Psyche]

free space

[Psyche]

drew i need you to take a stance on notscum

[Psyche]

haha what a funny or

[Psyche]

ok ur still in the running

[Psyche]

perspicacity

[Psyche]

wow drew

[Psyche]

what a jokeee

[Psyche]

31 pages but people acting like theyre sitting in a content desert

[Psyche]

i can't get over my annoyance w this playlist at this time
ill try again tomorrow

[Psyche]

why does he want his single articulable scumread to be ignored

[Psyche]

818 is the more substantive post

[Psyche]

why does he want his single articulable scumread to be ignored

I'm having trouble figuring out who he is in this case.

it’s cloutttttt

[Psyche]

It’s kinda whack psyche doesn’t like interact with the hu tao v naerys debacle like one bit

i mean besides being vaguely annoyed by melodrama

if it turns out to have held any useful information ill apologize in postgame
but if it’s tvt just like you said then i’m right not to waste the energy

[Psyche]

the page provides an entire system for classifying self-votes and explains in detail how each type of self vote could come from scum

or

from town.

then the only sentence from which it can be gleaned that anyone thinks self-voting is a scumtell is:
"While this practice is commonly seen as scum-indicative, no data has been compiled on the actual effectiveness of self-voting as a towntell or a scumtell."
this is arguably the most disapproving way that a writer could conceivably share that information without openly abandoning wikipedia's editorial guidelines

but someone clinging to the mafia wiki for dear life took the exact opposite message home?
it does not pass the smell test

i dont know this feels like a genre of case i would make as scum

like it’s so logical that it misses the illogical ideas that

1) the wiki link being posted was clearly just a cute rhetorical point

2) people dont actually read

1) no it wasn’t
2) doesn’t matter for my case

[Psyche]

will be so sweet when i’m proven right about all this. yall waste so much text on things that don’t matter

[Psyche]

it’s because nas is scummm

[Psyche]

in my last game w titus they were also pretty gone, and town
of course the nas vote and drew's iso makes me substantially lean town on the slot

[Psyche]

im sry for being so grumpy
ive been sick for like ten days now and it's very tedious
i hope it's almost over...

[Psyche]

I'm wary of Psyche being so sure about NAS. I don't think it would be wise to give lock status if NAS flips scum.

ok. lock status after i call the second scum?

[Psyche]

Psyche, what is your response?

there's nothing new under the sun

[Psyche]

wanna reiterate there is little consistent animus behind clout's votes this game
in particular, the "don't mind them guys" in 816 is not consistent w/ his stance of scumreading and pushing my slot expressed in other posts
still the whole trajectory around me has been similarly half-hearted
the more recent shift to gera was also pretty lifeless and undercooked
see if goes anywhere

[Psyche]

dave a better bet than either dann or titus

[Psyche]

if naeyrs just keeps doing nothing for the next two days then sure i'll shift my vote to the slot

[Psyche]

oh that post was a case and not just like an attempt at constructive criticism

[Psyche]

i really can’t comprehend how people are classing this or naerys as scummier than notascum

[Psyche]

i recant any post suggesting political clout is scum

[Psyche]

it's probably because NAS isn't in his mafia PT

so you agree nas is town thanks, appreciate it.

i just

[Psyche]

i could be wrong on this one

[Psyche]

i also sense that ht and i are teammates and dislike that we aren’t voting together

[Psyche]

VOTE: naerys

think she has been actually trying to survive since her self-vote

[Psyche]

why does naerys even choose to stick around as town for so long after her self vote? at best it stretches credibility. rather than giving up on the game, i think she's been invested this whole time and believing that lurking provides a low effort way to sidestep suspicion

[Psyche]

naeyrs's activity patterns suggest that she's at least skimmed all 52 pages of this game

[Psyche]

think klick is leaning way too hard on meta here. if there really are such night and day differences between naeyrs's town and scum play then taking advantage of that meta to justify lurking is child's play. if naerys had let the thread "get to her" then her performance of disengagement and disillusionment here would be more total

[Psyche]

think klick is leaning way too hard on meta here. if there really are such night and day differences between naeyrs's town and scum play then taking advantage of that meta to justify lurking is child's play. if naerys had let the thread "get to her" then her performance of disengagement and disillusionment here would be more total

I flatly and strongly disagree with this take

then i guess one of us gets bragging rights once the slot flips

[Psyche]

i completely agree naerys is sincerely not enjoying the game; this could explain why her play doesn't currently fit w her supposed scum meta. but when i'm not enjoying a game as scum, withdrawing while maintaining the bare minimum of activity is usually the least i can do for my teammates

[Psyche]

klick how do you generally distinguish between town lurking and scum lurking?

i'll give that it's not my strong suit; this naeyrs scumread is my best effort at it. is your approach to examine meta?

[Psyche]

i completely agree naerys is sincerely not enjoying the game; this could explain why her play doesn't currently fit w her supposed scum meta. but when i'm not enjoying a game as scum, withdrawing while maintaining the bare minimum of activity is usually the least i can do for my teammates

I don't think Naerys' lack of enjoyment is explainable from a scum perspective

She's salty because she thinks Hu is getting away with murder and she's spiting the town for it by trying to implode

If she's scum she was responding to a standard amount of pressure that she would be prepared to face as scum

when i read this i just think that the second and third paragraph do all the explaining that is asserted to be impossible in the first.

she

thinks

she has a neat and credible way to face the pressure on her and justify her lurking — she thinks this anger around hu tao looks legit and that its outsized scale makes the anger look more credible

but i don't think the performance has been convincing, particularly in the last couple days of activity she's exhibited

[Psyche]

w all do respect i feel like that's a non answer
of course someone trying to sort between scum lurking and town lurking doesn't think it means much about alignment wo consideration of applicable context;
the question would be meaningless

[Psyche]

anyway whatever klick's not joining the naeyrs wagon got it
i'll see who else is shopping

[Psyche]

i dont think that's true
must be be a miscommunication

[Psyche]

think dann is town. kind of curious why hu tao keeps him in her pool

[Psyche]

I think ari might be scum. She is pushing the Naerys/me narrative because she knows Naerys is gonna flip scum. And knows that they can't nk me because of my self vote to e-1 they know on VT. So only way to get rid of me is to tie me to Naerys

this maybe isn't grounded enough for me. suggests ariscum has a very strong sense of agency wrt her power to decide who is limmed.

[Psyche]

think dann is town. kind of curious why hu tao keeps him in her pool

He's good as scum. Can look towny

ugh

haha the crown is heavy eh

[Psyche]

keep getting this odd feeling reading klick's posts where she describes something naeyrs does that i find disingenuous, then adds a sentence like "It doesn't match with how she's feeling" and i have to like actively keep in mind that she's disagreeing w my read

[Psyche]

502 is just gibberish to me
is impressive that you copped a read from it, if the read is accurate

[Psyche]

who's gonna tell naerys that she accidentally joined the "assume stuff about what's going on in people's heads" game

[Psyche]

the annoying part about all this is that town do emotional manipulation all the time. i do it almost every time i'm close to being limmed. what is a temper tantrum anyway if not an attempt as emotional manipulation. in this essay, i will explain why notascum is still the best choice for elimination

[Psyche]

alas none of yall are emotionally ready to accept the reality of his betrayal

[Psyche]

Mini Normal 2325 makes me less convinced of Psyche-town

I thought your scum play there was particularly good. Do you think you're a good scum player Psyche

hahaa
no not yet
that game was messsy and i survived by lurking
won't get away w that again for a while

[Psyche]

what is everybody's read on dave

to be fair to dave, dave has a passive style that makes him hard to read in general because you can't consistently use questions like "is this person trying to get scum executed?" to sort him
that said my hunch is he's scum and if my notascum read plays out how i expect then i will probably call for dave's head and then get roundly ignored

[Psyche]

is it too whiny and persecution complexy to suggest ive been ignored re notascum? maybe ok more than maybe

[Psyche]

yall are so aggressive w these indefinite pronouns yes i know the post was about notascum but i read through two clauses before i figured it out

[Psyche]

haha when she what

[Psyche]

UNVOTE:

a gesture of respect bc klick said i did a good job in that one game

[Psyche]

waittt
let’s build a consensus
all the best towns eliminate the consensus pick across their obvtowns

[Psyche]

Is a Vig possible?

I find it hard to believe Scum WOULDN’T target me.

you forced a mislim for them. maybe they're looking forward to what you'll cook today

[Psyche]

i really regret trying to be accommodating yesterday
but maybe the synthesis is that i should focus on accommodating the people who are actually trying

[Psyche]

VOTE: notascum

[Psyche]

also to be real not targetting the IC is maybe the least a scumteam could do to avoid unfavorable interactions w hypothetical town prs

[Psyche]

that's a heavy readlist to carry

[Psyche]

we should be killing off notascum

[Psyche]

how do i push the game forward when i want a specific slot dead? it feels so wasteful to just keep repeating this but also i don't want to give into distractions like i did yesterday

[Psyche]

i swear if notascum flips town ill do something embarassing of the rest of the town's choice :*(

[Psyche]

do you even have a case for not a scum

how did you get this far wo reading a case for notascum

[Psyche]

Psyche because I think the early parts of the NAS push looked a lot like a planned bus, and what seems like too narrow a focus though it's possible there are things I didn't remember.
PC, you just feel odd, it's pretty much gut.
KJQ comes across as town trying to find out alignments, where NAS feels like performative new not real new.

if something ive done looks like a planned bus then shouldn’t you also be scumreading NAS…

[Psyche]

just for the record…
i think davesaz is lying about why he’s scumreading me
i think aristae is just lazy and bad at this

[Psyche]

such a bad vote. how could it even likely to advance the game if you’re not even going to bother to explain it or put any effort into prosecuting the wagon. just sucks all around

[Psyche]

what pattern? you're not even trying. talking about circle as if this playstyle isn't just as you in 2325

[Psyche]

just for the record…
i think davesaz is lying about why he’s scumreading me

What do you think is the real reason?

he's scum...

[Psyche]

do you even have a case for not a scum

so notascum ended as the second biggest wagon of yesterday and was discussed at length as a potential scumread by tons of people
but aristeia, who went out of her way to push through the naeyrs wagon through against a wealth of resistance, apparently did not notice anyone post reasons for voting NAS either 1) back when anyone made these posts, or 2) while reflecting on the outcome of Day and Night 1
aristeia even bothered to spend a post examining NAS's game history before peeking at even one post someone's made this game explainaing their NAS scumread
supposing this slot is town -- which i suppose is not certain! -- the amount of wasted effort here is breathtaking

[Psyche]

i misread dave's most recent post; it's not as bad as i originally thought

[Psyche]

think i've changed to at least null on dave
if i were to follow the path of least resistance i would say that the scum are

NotAScum
Aristeia
geraintm

but honestly reality usually has a rule of cool element to it that makes me prefer to doubt this list
who am i most likely to be wrong about? does it even matter if getting even my top scumread limmed feels impossible? one thing titus's style has going for it is that it excludes the need for such considerations

[Psyche]

do you even have a case for not a scum

so notascum ended as the second biggest wagon of yesterday and was discussed at length as a potential scumread by tons of people
but aristeia, who went out of her way to push through the naeyrs wagon through against a wealth of resistance, apparently did not notice anyone post reasons for voting NAS either 1) back when anyone made these posts, or 2) while reflecting on the outcome of Day and Night 1
aristeia even bothered to spend a post examining NAS's game history before peeking at even one post someone's made this game explainaing their NAS scumread
supposing this slot is town -- which i suppose is not certain! -- the amount of wasted effort here is breathtaking

Good post

Aristeia and Psyche both scumread each other but go out of their way to FoS me together. Just sayin

i didnt fos you. i called you bad.

[Psyche]

pattern of misreads of simple things like this probably explains why your scumreads are so off. suggest a little reflecting the next time someone you vote flips

[Psyche]

yah ive gotta mind the rule of cool

[Psyche]

if nas flips town ill apologize and shut up

[Psyche]

i don’t have a guilty on NAS
my promise wouldn’t have any meaning if i did

[Psyche]

give me a nas flip and if it’s wrong:
- ill preface any post outlining a read with “im terrible at mafia but”
- every time you make a read i’ll go out of my way to boost it for you. i’ll quote it on the next page and be like “this person has been right about a lot this game so i hope everyone is paying attention to this”
- i’ll sheep you if you order me to.
- total ego death or your money back

[Psyche]

i don’t like being rude. i don’t wanna be that type of animal anymore even if i suspect it’ll help me win mafia should be fun
from here out i commit to refusing to make any post that reduces the thread’s net fun
if i see something i don’t like i’ll just type “lol” and share a relevant meme
that’s the psyche i wanna be

[Psyche]

give me a nas flip and if it’s wrong:

if its wrong the game is fucking over and nothing you say will matter to me

i am pretty sure we aren’t in mylo right now so i wonder why you say this
but sure it’s important that we aren’t wrong

[Psyche]

i don’t like being rude. i don’t wanna be that type of animal anymore even if i suspect it’ll help me win mafia should be fun

you just called me bad for not sheeping you so whatever dude

yes and im sorry
this was morally wrong

[Psyche]

i let my anger over the naerys thing lead me astray
i am weak minded and and a douche
even if im right about nas, it is a hollow victory

[Psyche]

ari when im not currently working up against a deadline im going to try to take some thread control and force whoever is town to work together here

this game is still salvageable as long as we don't quick eliminate a town!NAS before i manage to do that

is the nas townread mostly because of your clout scumread?

[Psyche]

dann i respect you. i didn’t appreciate klick enough while they were here and don’t wanna do the same with you. i’ll listen to you about clout and even nas if you go through the trouble of walking us through your thinking.

[Psyche]

yes yes. ty

[Psyche]

im going to try to stick with the “stop to figure shit out” caucus from here out. even though i do still think nas is an easy call.

[Psyche]

i think some people are trying to do the bare minimum. we just have to find and try to listen to each other even though we don’t agree on enough.

i understand how easy it is to fall into a pattern of feeling surrounded by idiots but that thinking is probably a dead end that only promises isolation and myopia. it’s how naerys ended up self voting and being easy pickings for a d1 mislim. we have to be a little optimistic, even if it goes against reason. otherwise a small chance becomes zero chance.