The Werewolves of Millers Hollow (Game Over)

[Jahudo]

Vote Gorrad for Mayor

Vote Mufasa for Lynch

There's a new king in the pride!

[Jahudo]

Xtoxm, are you serious in believing that your role makes you a better choice for mayor than another townie?

And i'm happy to run Xtoxm upto a claim right now.

You want him to claim already? I don't think he should claim, his post looks vague enough as it is that it's not hurting or helping.

[Jahudo]

I don't buy X's claim. I've heard of Unlynchable as both a town and scum role anyway.

I bet he's actually a UNK SK. This is the perfect fake claim for that.

unvote;
Vote: Xtoxm for Mayor

unvote;
Vote: Xtoxm for Lynch

[Jahudo]

@BM: A feeling I get from my X as SK meta.

@Shadow: I certainly hope there aren't jesters but now that you mention it I bet there is a Vampire in this game. It fits the theme perfectly. I'm not familiar with the strategy so I don't know if they'd make themselves a target for a lynch or NK so early.

[Jahudo]

[No, why did you vote him for Mayor? 0.o'

Ugh, im such a dumbass. Whats a vampire?

1. If we want to lynch X today or test the theory that it just won't work (I don't think Unlynchables necessarily have to force a no-lynch if he is telling the truth as town or scum unlynchable), we need to have a mayor. If he doesn't die and is still mayor then he'll be a prime night kill target anyway (I'm guessing there are multiple killing factions because most large games have them).

2. MS wiki article on Vampire : It's basically the Judas role but with a werewolf theme it seems even more likely to be present. It doesn't change my opinion of X's claim, actually, because now that he's claimed unlynchable there might be a killing faction that would get him at night anyway.

Our issue is whether we get rid of X now or wait until tomorrow and if he's still alive we have to wonder why.

Also I'm probably not the best mayor candidate. I like to think I'm pro-town when I'm town but I've been wrong about who's scum alot of times. In fact, that's my meta as town.

[Jahudo]

Actually I think if X is scum and has partners, him being mayor is a bad idea even if he does die since he can select the next mayor.

unvote Xtoxm for Mayor
Vote: Battle Mage for Mayor

he seems townish so far

[Jahudo]

You think Xtoxm may be a vampire but still want to lynch him? And you wanted him to be mayor (as of this post)? I don't follow your logic.

My top two guesses are 1) UNK SK and 2) Scum Unlynchable. It's still early in the day so maybe that will change but I'm just going to start from the vantage point of suspecting X based on his oddly timed claim.

Do you think a vampire could make themselves a target this early in the game? One that wants to be scum more than town I would think, but they have the unique opportunity to switch sides when one begins to gain leverage and day 1 is not the day you can tell that sort of thing. That's why I'm thinking it's possibly SK, because he did not handle being SK well last time (Mini 695).

Plus, I don't like you saying that you have a "meta" of not finding scum. I have seen you play very well as town...granted its been in marathons but that is even a harder scenario for town. I have also seen you play very well as scum. Can you link some games where you sucked as town? It seems to me you are setting yourself to take part in mislynches.

It was mostly a joke because I put that as my "meta" on my wiki page for all to see and obey

I don't mean to say I suck as town (ok, I did suck in Mini 695 oddly enough). I guess let my involvement on wagons speak for themselves and if you think a second vote is safe in my hands then so be it.

[Jahudo]

I agree that at this point X might as well give us a flavor claim. I’m still not sure if he explicitly knows that an attempted lynch on him results in an automatic no lynch and end of day action.

If there are multiple killing factions out there it is possible X is already a prime NK target and other power target, so I think that we can make better lynch candidates today. If he’s still the most scummy by the end of the day, let him hang; otherwise, we can deal with him later on if he isn’t NKed.

@Mufasa - Why do you want to be lynched? I’m sure we can make that happen if you’re scum.

@ MikeSC – That’s a lot of jester talk. A lot of people shun the idea of jesters even in a theme game unless it specifically states that there could be jesters or that it’s bastard modded style. Are you uncomfortable with testing his claim?

@ Ztife – It seems like you’re not ready to enter the serious stage of the game, but already we’ve had a serious uninhibited claim? So what’s the problem? Also, you’re plan to be mayor takes a lot of your scumhunting and puts it on others. I don’t care about placing blame on a mislynch because people can look genuinely scummy and they are mislynched even with a strong majority of people on board the lynch, but you should vote for whoever you think is scummy and not piggy back on others (especially if you are not sure they are town).

Re: Juls post 99 – Do you think he could be Vampire because he wants to be scum now, or do you have another reason why he might be a vampire?

Firestarter and ZONEACE, where are you???

unvote Xtoxm for Lynch

[Jahudo]

Do you feel that Xtoxm is lying to us?

Yes and I think he needs to flavor claim and answer those other questions before we can know more. Also, I think the least likely Xtoxm role is Vanilla because he doesn't seem like the type of player to fake claim for being bored.

This aggression theory talk doesn't seem very useful but I don't see anyone using it as a crutch right now to avoid talking about the issues with players like X.

As far as a mayor, BM has a few joke/fluff posts (jester joke claim, really?) already but he's still asking questions which is good. Another good mayor might be Dr Pepper, it feels like he's in the game and interpreting already.

[Jahudo]

Most likely --->

non-lynchproof scum - Because I've seen him self-destruct and claim SK before and then say he would use his power to only kill scum.

other town power (vampire) - The claim ensures that some people will want to either lynch him or night kill him at some point, which is not a risk for this role. I don't think it's as likely because he can play good as town and why wouldn't he try a few days scumhunting and see if we're winning or not?
-Question for anyone who has played werewolf theme before: How many other types of roles can be resurrected?

lynchproof town - I'm less inclined to believe this because lynchproof sounds more believable to me as a L-1 claim. The way he claimed felt like he was baiting us to test him out instead of keep votes off him.

lynchproof scum - I feel like he would know that lynchproof doesn't confirm him as town, even though he said it would, so why gambit for that reason? This may go up depending on his answers.

other town power (all else) - I don't see how he'd want to draw attention to himself by claiming a power role and risk getting killed at night if we get to L-1 and he re-claims.

<--- Least likely

[Jahudo]

@Shinnen: Have you read the various posts about Xtoxm's meta? A few of us have given small impressions. I don't think we should talk too much more about how we think X plays as town and scum, because we need to see how he's playing this game.

I got the feeling that Fonz didn't want to be mayor. The Fonz, is it just you don't think you would be a good mayor, or you don't want to accept mayor?

[Jahudo]

Scared of the Mayor position? Why?

No, I’ll take it if people think I’ll use it best.

if Xtomx is scum and is lynched, what are the chances he'll choose a partner next? Set-up for mis-lynch/various mis-lynches?

Good point. Maybe a scum mayor wouldn’t want to risk implicating a scum partner by having them succeed as mayor. In any case we’ll have to look closely at that successor should this scenario happen.

I like The Fonz's idea that the mayor can be someone who looks pro-town but isn't one of the strongest voices of pressuring people and bringing forth suspicions. For that reason I wouldn't prefer The Fonz, Juls or Yos.

BM is still a good choice, even though he's a veteran and reasonably active, I feel that he's playing a little more passively than he could be today and joking a little too much. I'd like that extra spotlight on him if he's mayor too.

I don't think Percy looks suspicious for his opinion on how vanilla townies should not want to get killed, although I agree with the fonz that vanilla's should not be concerned with playing to survive the night.

Zwet needs to say something other than X is WIFOM. His entire contribution to this point is that we should not lynch Xtoxm right now, which doesn't seem like an issue until we 1) have a mayor and 2) hear enough from Xtoxm to feel he is truly scum.

I don't like Shadow Knight's night plan. We don't know if a vig exists and we shouldn't publicly direct him because the public includes scum who can influence the vidge.

ZONEACE NEEDS TO SHOW HIS ZONEFACE

[Jahudo]

@Xtoxm: Can you confirm that an attempt to lynch you will result in an automatic no lynch situation and go directly to night? Please answer truthfully

As far as electing a scummy or towny mayor, I think that would be hard to come to a consensus day 1 and reads are weaker on day 1 so it’s a difficult strategy to realize. I think the mayor should be able to scumhunt on their own and vote on their own, so just because they may be wrong or disagree with you doesn’t mean they should be suspected more than a 1-voter. I’d rather give the towny player another vote to help a town-filled wagon. And we should treat them as any other player when it comes to deciding if they should be lynched.

He could be a vamp that chooses when to resurrect. It would be awful to get to lynch or lose and then have him turn up and make us lose it, or something like that. I'm all for directing a vigilante his way tonight.

How does that stop him from turning into a vamp if that is his power? We don’t know if we have a vig, specifically one that can control their shot, and we shouldn’t be trying to direct him anyway.

BM: Where are you, why were you so active in the first few pages and not so much now?

I could go for a DizzyIzzy or Shadow Knight mayor too. They are pretty vocal and focusing more on scum finding than theory talk. I’d like the benefit of watching their moves closer and giving them more power to scumhunt.

We can decide what to do with Xtoxm after he gets into the game. He’s got no reason to avoid this game and I’d like to hear his opinion in all matters.

[Jahudo]

Xtoxm wanting replacement does not sit well with me. But allowing a replacement to confirm or deny these claims is a good thing, as long as the replacement is willing to talk about it. I'd still like to know if the role pm said a lynch attempt forces night without a lynch.

[Jahudo]

If lynching me would have killed me i'd have just self hammered. The role I have means it is not unfair on the replacement.

X, no one can attempt to lynch you until a mayor is decided. Why are you being anti-town now?

Question: Can you confirm from your role PM that a hammer attempt on you will result in a automatic no lynch and end of day? Or will we just keep playing and get a chance to lynch someone else?

[Jahudo]

If millar is telling the truth, X was still trying to sabotage him even after asking for a replacement. Why say this

If lynching me would have killed me i'd have just self hammered. The role I have means it is not unfair on the replacement.

if he was just a vanilla townie who was feeling guilty about not fully participating?

This is a good point.

I've taken another look at the Incognito-brand meta on Xtoxm. It's hard because he left pretty early but a X-scum commits alot of IIOA while a X-town will mention other players. As either scum or town he will blurt things out without thinking of repercussions. Incog has explained this in quite a few games but it seems to hold true, especially for the games Juls shared.

Now his fake claim could have been done by a X-town if he proceeded to use this gambit to catch scum. He voted Gorrad and said BM was his scumpartner, but these weren't strong posts. He gave up easily without much scumhunting, so the gambit looks more like a scum one than town.

I'm okay with a millar lynch today. He should just hammer himself.

[Jahudo]

Oh, spoke too soon.

so who was telling the truth millar?

[Jahudo]

You get 5 guesses at my role....then i will tell you anyway. Might have some fun in this game.

SK with night kill immunity?

[Jahudo]

Im a villlage idoit

ok, but what is your role

[Jahudo]

millar's little one liners are without hesitation and his village idiot claim is just too over the top to look natural. It looks to me like he wants us to think he's a jester, so while he's baiting us to lynch him he's hoping we call his bluff and back off. Anyone see it differently?

A Yos mayor is fine by me. I don't like BM's disappearance. He said alot of little stuff early on while joking. I wouldn't call him likeliest town.

unvote mayor;
Vote Yos for mayor

[Jahudo]

Hmm, this is an odd turn of events. Theoretically there may not even be any scum to lynch today given that 8 people are unlynchable. But the chance of one scum in our group is much greater than all in theirs.

I'm not believing that one haha so reviewing day one the most likely person to lynch is Battle Mage for his contribution is so great that he needs to be lynched on the simple matter that he has a good con voyage.

What do you mean by "good con voyage"? Why do you want to lynch someone who you think has had a great contribution? Also, we can't lynch BM because he's away collecting mysterious plants. You're not reading close enough.

@Mod: Why is Xtoxm in the 'men remaining' list? Shouldn't millar not count towards the vote, so it's 11 alive with 7 to lynch?

[Jahudo]

Hmm, this is an odd turn of events. Theoretically there may not even be any scum to lynch today given that 8 people are unlynchable. But the chance of one scum in our group is much greater than all in theirs.

Is this a suggestion for a no lynch?

No, there's a much greater chance of 1+ scum than 0 scum here.

Answer the question:

What do you mean by "good con voyage"? Why do you want to lynch someone who you think has had a great contribution? Also, we can't lynch BM because he's away collecting mysterious plants. You're not reading close enough.

[Jahudo]

@Zwet: What were the main reasons that made you decide to lynch millar? Which people made the best argument that changed your mind?

Zoneace hasn't posted anywhere on this site, so it doesn't look like lurking. He could use a prod in another day or so.

[Jahudo]

Noticed I am the same colour as the other town players?

You have a point there. In the OP both your role and Shadow Knight's role are listed in blue. Typically a third party is a different color.

I have no problem with millar continuing to play the game as if he has a vote.

---------

Yos blatantly rolefished last page, and noone noticed.

You said this on page 21 (Here is the Link) but when asked to clarify you didn’t and then came the hammer. Can you go back and explain where and how Yos rolefished?

I dont want Battlemage as a major. Something just feels off to me right now. I cant put my finger on it. I just have a mild suspicion of him.

Do you have a better idea now of what feels off about BM?

so reviewing day one the most likely person to lynch is Battle Mage for his contribution is so great that he needs to be lynched on the simple matter that he has a good

con voyage

conveying.

Fixed. This still needs an explanation…he has a good conveying of what? The game? Mufasa, you voted Battle Mage for mayor day 1 so I’ll ask again: Why do you want to lynch him today?

[Jahudo]

I'd rather let Zoneace get Zone-replaced since he hasn't been posting in other games either. He last posted 7 days ago. He was prodded 1 day ago. If he doesn't show up soon we may see his replacement by mid-week.

I'm growing more suspicious of Mufasa's awareness of the game. His characterization of BM looks very general and could be applied to other players. Also his self-vote, while not really bad by itself, was made on page 4 when the discussion was shifting away from votes to more serious matters.

And he didn't make any contributions or observations on his own. He supported the BM, Yos and Fonz mayor wagons and the X lynch after others did and he didn't distinguish himself from the crowd. To me it looks like trying to imitate the group's thoughts, rather than expound on them or challenge them. That's a safe move for town that don't want to get in trouble but it's an even safer move for scum that want to stay under the radar.

Vote: Mufasa

[Jahudo]

I don't find the early fullclaim suspicious. There was enough interest in lynching millar that L-3 could have easily been L-1 and an explanation of Xtoxm and millar's "partial claims" were absolutely necessary.

It's not really rolefishing if the fish jumps out of the water and into the boat like X did by saying he was unlynchable.

[Jahudo]

Firstly, asking for someone at L-1 to claim is not rolefishing. Secondly, you made a big deal out of it (HOW COME NO-ONE NOTICED?! or something to that effect) when everyone else could see it for what it was.

Now you've said that it was to start discussion on Yos. It failed. Do you still want to talk about Yos? What is your opinion of him now?

Also, the WIFOM surrounding millar has

not

gone. People are still talking about whether we can assume he's a stumped townie or something more malevolent. I think it's a terrible idea to lynch a Jester (or some other related role), but you seem to think that if someone might be a Jester you might as well lynch them just to be sure. Is this correct?

@Zwet: Are you only concerned with the first paragraph? What about paragraphs 2 and 3?

[Jahudo]

I've found the Fonz to be the most townie, though it seems he has not posted in a while.

@Fonz. You here?

He's a woman in this game so he went into the forrest.

I think Mufasa is scum. Let's discuss how he should have more votes. I'll go first. I think Mufasa is lurking, selective reading, and wishy-washy on his opinions of people. That is why I think Mufasa is scum.

[Jahudo]

Battle Mage to me hasn't posted a post since I had put out an accusation and has really let the rest of you rip into me as to why I had accused him smart move but I find him a wee bit lurkish without saying he would be gone so

fos BM [/]

Re-read day 2 and see if you can find why this is a moot point.

[Jahudo]

If he really is just a confused, busy pro-town player, then he's playing like a confused, busy anti-town player. Making excuses for him is more than a little bizarre. He's also at L-3, by my count. Why do you think he's in such a great deal of danger?

Percy makes good points here. Mufasa may have limited access but has not made a clear distinction between pro-town and anti-town. The pressure on him is justified and Zwet, at first, appears to be over-reacting. But it looks more like Zwet is just trying to explain his position and I don’t see anything wrong with the one he takes or how he’s been taking it in response to accusations on him.

That seems to me a way to keep a vote out there which won't really do anything. It is an easy way to avoid committing to an actual lynch.

Did you think Percy was doing this intentionally? Do you think any town player would do it? If so, why?

[Jahudo]

I don't see scumtells in this line of discussion. Dr. Pepper went after something and seems to have a valid reasoning for doing so; dingo had a valid reasoning for the original statement to Percy and both look like town to me.

Maybe tubby and mufasa can bring a new perspective when they catch up.

[Jahudo]

Let's let millar resolve this dispute

But seriously we need to hear from other people now. Barrylocke what do you think?
Where is tubby?

According to the vote count from before dingo he had already voted for you and it seemed like he wanted to make sure you knew where he stands.

Do you think this makes a certain player look more scummy or towny?

I don't like seeing ad hom. I used to think it was a solid scumtell from certain people but it hasn't been very reliable in other games. In this situation I think frustration is setting in on both sides, so it is less an alignment tell, but I can't be completely sure. What do other people think?

[Jahudo]

Actually yes, let's go back and focus on this part.

Note that you still refuse to provide a single example of me saying the things you claim I said. If my own words condemn me, why can't you find any to demonstrate it?

And maybe you can explain how you interpret this

I'm not asking him to change his vote.

to this

dingo is trying to get a vote changed without providing a solid reason.

Originally I thought the way Dr. Pepper investigated the original dingo post using inference was a pro-town move but upon re-looking at how they have continued the discussion I am not so sure that Dr. Pepper is tunnel-visioned on the conclusion drawn from that inference.

That is, I don't see where Dr. Pepper was so confidant that dingo

was

trying to manipulate Percy. Does anyone else see it as a tunnel-vision or something else?

[Jahudo]

I think dingo was arguing all along that I was using a scum tactic, as I said before. His posts just don't make sense otherwise. Pointing this out is again off-topic and inconsistent with his other lines of attack against dingo.

Do you think Pepper was lying and misrepresenting dingo on this issue?

The tunnel vision thing occured mostly because dingo did not acknowledge the inference from the post 638 existed. dingo went to instead correct me with some sort of superiority complex. After repeating and reinforcing myself we arrive to part two.

Maybe the inference is wrong. It's impossible to say.

A) dingo is telling the truth and and Dr Pepper is lying. In this situation Dr Pepper should be the lynch for today.

You did misrepresent dingo by saying explicitly that dingo was trying to get Percy to change his vote.

OK, one question. Why criticize him for his statement then?

You can see that Pepper's base assumption is incorrect, and you give him the benifit of the doubt, assuming he meant something other than what he said. But he consistently makes that same incorrect base assumption. THAT is why I call him a liar.

The base assumption is "criticize" yes? But weren't you technically judging the merits of Percy's decision to vote for a lurker? You don't have to judge with suspicion or condemnation. Are you saying you were completely devoid of judgment on what Percy did?

When one scum is defending a scumbudy, they usually want to try to somehow discourage other people to vote for him (or to keep their vote on him, or whatever), but they don't want to LOOK like they're defending their buddy; in fact, if asked, they'll usually deny that that's what they're trying to do. And that's kind of the vibe I was getting from dingo's "clarifications".

Who is the scumbuddy in this case? Zoneace?

[Jahudo]

Dang I actually messed up that quote, but yeah I see that you've remained consistent on what has been meant. There is reasonable room in your original posts for this meaning too, which doesn't now look like a judgment of persuasion or suspicion. It possibly could have turned into that if Percy continued to do things that, in your history, were scum tells like avoiding a real contribution and keeping the vote on the lurker indefinitely.

If we have to decide between dingo and pepper today I'm leaning towards voting pepper.

[Jahudo]

Re; Dingo & Percy..
I think its plain to see that Dingo wasn't asking Percy to remove his vote.

Do you think Dr Pepper is more likely scum than Dingo? Do you think either are likely scum?

Same questions for Barrylocke and Mufasa: Do you think either Dr Pepper or Dingo are more likely scum? Do you think either is likely scum?

[Jahudo]

I lets say have a trigger ability that will be activated after my lynch.

Why are you telling us this? As a warning? To who?

I have an idea what you are already. I am more than prepared to unvote and see if there's a vig that can kill you. Would you like that better?

[Jahudo]

The trigger could be on the whole town, or it could just be on him.

So is there a town-aligned role that anyone knows of that helps the town if the town lynches that role?

[Jahudo]

Fine.

unvote;
Vote: Dr. Pepper

[Jahudo]

Giving in to WIFOM that quickly?

I don't really trust Mufasa but Yos makes a good point that we don't need to debate this or make him claim until tomorrow when Mufasa wants to be the lynch.

[Jahudo]

Repeating questions:

Re; Dingo & Percy..
I think its plain to see that Dingo wasn't asking Percy to remove his vote.

Do you think Dr Pepper is more likely scum than Dingo? Do you think either are likely scum?

Same questions for Barrylocke and Mufasa: Do you think either Dr Pepper or Dingo are more likely scum? Do you think either is likely scum?

Are these people still around: Firestarter and Barrylocke? They have not taken a stand on the important issues of the day. It looks discouraging and slightly suspicious that they are under the radar.

------------

Is catherina random spam or replacing someone?

@Mike: Alot of it comes in posts after those that you PbPa'ed. Take Dr. Pepper's post 716 for instance, where he said:

dingo earned my FoS for his repeated critisms of Percy's vote plan. His opinion was made known. It was responded to by myself repeatedly and Yos in post 649. dingo keeps pushing for Percy to change the vote style only because someone might be scumiier. I have repeatedly asked dingo to provide a better target and he hasnt. dingo is trying to get a vote changed without providing a solid reason. I find these actions of his to be either misleading or paranoid.

He's taken the initial inference that dingo

wanted

to change Percy's vote, to a recollection that dingo

actually tried

to get a vote changed. This is a misrepresentation that attempts to boost Dr. Pepper's case but cannot be proven by what dingo said in 643 and other posts.

[Jahudo]

Reread the discussion and dingo's scumminess should stick out like a sore thumb.

Are you saying dingo is scummy?

[Jahudo]

Mod: Can you prod Dr. Pepper?

[Jahudo]

Unless he's third party or a vampire or something similar

[Jahudo]

I never truly understood what a vampire was. Could you explain please?

I'm not sure either; I've just read the wiki article on it. It's like they are a vanilla townie that can return as scum if they die. So maybe if they are NK'ed we won't know if and they'll remain a player but a scum player? I don't know how they can pull it off if they are lynched.

In that case, we shouldn't be taking advice from him anyway.

We should hear him out tomorrow because he could be trying to WIFOM us one way or the other. But he definitely cannot remain alive in this game much longer.

[Jahudo]

I asked for a Pepper prod near the top of this page.

Percy, by thinking you were putting Dr. Pepper to L-1, were you ready to hear him claim?

[Jahudo]

I just sent him a PM.

[Jahudo]

I would, but I honestly have absolutly no idea why we lynched Pepper today, and no one seemed interested in explaining their votes to me. I was *here*, and I don't understand what happened.

Misrepresenting dingo in order to assume suspicion. It is plainly there but perhaps not intentional (that's the matter of opinion).

I'd say Mufasa looked opportunistic in his vote but he's already volunteered to be tomorrow's lynch so that's a good place to start when we have all the players back.

If anyone had thought or does think that the circumstances of dingo vs Pepper debate make it very likely that one or the other is scum and very unlikely that they are both town, then that's probably a debate for tomorrow too. I don't see it that way personally but I think even dingo and Pepper were proposing that.

[Jahudo]

A large part of Day 2 conversation began when Percy kept his vote on ZONEACE the lurker. Dingo criticized him without saying he was suspicious and from there Dingo and Dr. Pepper disagreed on any motivation Dingo had for criticizing Percy without overly suspecting him.

Now that Percy has flipped everyone should at least page through Day 2 to see his interactions and who gave a read on him. That's where I'm going to start.

Also, Mufasa says that if he is lynched today, it will trigger something that is good for the town. What do the women think of this?

I can promise you all that I am pro-town and my ability will help the town, but
it depends on what happens with the ladies for which my ability does.

Mufasa, what has to happen with the ladies?

[Jahudo]

Yeah, not surpised about Percy; I thought the Dr Pepper wagon was scum driven, especally towards the end. I just wish he hadn't self hammered, we might have gotten more info that way.

But dingo was also town so scum could have jumped either way. I'm hesitant to call it scum driven since it's likely that half the scum were in the female group yesterday. I'm not confidant about numbers this early but I wouldn't assume more 2 or 3 additional scum from the male group.

There's a possibility that Mufasa is scum but more likely I feel that he is a strange role that helps him as much, if not more than everyone else if his trigger goes through. Zwet I am getting town vibes from. Kaiveran deserves a closer look though; I don't think he really took in the debate as much as made a decision to push the wagon.

[Jahudo]

I don't think Yos is acting scummy so I see no point in lynching him. People have different ideas about who to kill when they are scum.

Absolutely! UROE in Random Mafia 3, I led an attack on him, lynching D1 based on this tell. It also caught my scumpartner, Seraphim in Bleach Mafia when I brought it up there (though I brought it up on a townie, to be fair).

The basic premise behind it is that it gains nothing for town by being said, and has a chance of outting power roles.

Are you still talking about a player that reacts to the outcome of a lynch or night (ie: cheering at a dead scum or feeling remorse over a dead town)? Was Random Mafia 3 a night start, because otherwise how would someone commit that tell?

My own opinion is that scum will sometimes attempt genuine surprise over a flip but I've seen townies do it too, either by getting caught up in the game to forget that it is a tell or because they don't know that it's a tell. It's a minor point by itself but isn't enough for me to feel confident in a vote.

In people's experience, are scumtells generally accurate? Dr Pepper was lynched partly on the back of a "scumtell" that he referred to himself in the third person I think it was.

What particular scumtells are you talking about? Do YOU think they are good indicators of scum behavior?

What do you mean, "Dr. Pepper referred to himself in the third person"?

[Jahudo]

@ Yos No I believe lynching me today would not best help the town.

Has something changed? I thought you had a trigger that helped the town.

[Jahudo]

I feel this is a rather off-hand response. Yos is an excellent player, and i dont expect him to commit glaring scumtells when he is mafia. Maybe this comes under "too townie to be town"? *shrug*

No, I just feel that Yos is townish based on his activity day 2. I think he was one of the few people to critically analyze what was going on between dingo and pepper, where scum wouldn't have really cared which one died (we know that now).

Also, another thing im thinking is, bussing is unlikely to be prevalent in this game. If Yos was scum, what would his team mates do? I dont see them all hopping on the wagon, given that their team would then either lose the mayorship, or have another player implicated.

Well, if a scum mayor is killed I would assume someone on his wagon is much more likely to be the next mayor, as opposed to someone not on his wagon.

I think it's too early to tell if we have one main scum faction or two, and how many third party scum we have. These variables might affect how much scum think they can get by with bussing. If they have a big enough group but with weak powers, they are probably more likely to bus.

[Jahudo]

What would happen if everybody swore today?

And i dont understand your first point about the scum mayor-please explain?

If Yos were to be lynched and flip scum, I think we would look for his scumbuddies among the people that didn't lynch him. We would also need to elect a new mayor before we lynched someone, so someone that did lynch him would get townie points.

[Jahudo]

@Mufasa:

I believe that my action won't do the maximium amount of help if I am to be killed today but we'll see.

Is there a reason you can tell us why your action won't do the maximum amount of help? If so, what is it?

When do you think you should get lynched, if ever?

I feel that you have put this attention on yourself to explain why you shouldn't be the lynch today. If you have a decent enough reason, you'd still need to do some actual scumhunting in my mind to be pro-town. I haven't seen that yet.

[Jahudo]

I think Mufasa should confirm what he's only kind of explained. I'm not sure he ever said tomorrow was the best time for his role to trigger. He also didn't specifically say that the woodland gathering event was good for his role; it was just something that happened day 2 (like it could have just been because it was day 2).

[Jahudo]

I didn't know this was a real card game. I found the other roles but I don't see anything that resembles what Mufasa is hinting at with his role.

Does the card game have events too? Maybe that's where we get unique roles and powers.

---------------------

I don't see the way Mike is posting as scummy. I think it's just his attempts at getting into the game. I did feel, however, that he often doubts his reads like with Pepper/Dingo and Mufasa. At some point I think townies have to make a decision based on what they can find. I think scum have more reason to withhold decisions so they don't have to backtrack as far if they see a momentum shift to another lynch candidate.

I think it's worth looking at how he's tried to come to conclusions or not, but right now I don't feel the case on him.

------------------------

These people need to post more or tell us where they are on getting caught up:
knox, ztife, dramonic, and Shinnen_no_Me

[Jahudo]

So just to make sure about this piper thing, Barrylocke was told he started dancing with Dizzy and Dizzy was told she started dancing with Barrylocke? Did they learn through the mod that Juls started dancing? Did Juls learn through the mod that those two were already dancing?

I was randomly assigned the river

What is the river?

It's strange that the "Impressionist" would have the Hunter's power as well as being a JOAT. That seems very powerful. I believe the name at least and that he probably has some of that power because Juls had already revealed that this was a semi-open setup, but I don't think the claim makes him any more or less town because Impressionist could be scum.

[Jahudo]

An impressionist takes on the personality of someone else so I can see that being a name but I don't see anything similar to this in the card game. I am having a hard time voting on this reason though. I guess questions to everyone:

1) could this be a scum role disguised as a town role?
2) could this be a third party role?
3) is it better to look elsewhere today and try to verify his claim?

I read somewhere that Monet could perform a good Degas impression.

1. If he's a werewolf then he's probably the equivalent of a Mafia Doctor or Mafia Roleblocker. His being scum already ensures he can be tested as a killer.

2. I can believe there being 2-3 third party players but any more would seem too hard to balance. We know there's a Piper and it sounds like the lovers could become third party players. I'm not sure another party would balance well.

3. Wouldn't any test require a power role to out themselves? Like, to say their weren't blocked or they got a guilty investigation? I'd rather not use him to direct kills and if he's scum a "successful protect" doesn't mean anything.

[Jahudo]

I'm not sure that vote count is accurate since it still lists dead people.

I say we get rid of Mufasa now because he's likely scum, but just in case he is telling the truth we should direct his vengeful kill by deciding who else is scummy and getting his input on who he'd kill. If he's town I don't think he'd be protected but theres a good chance scum want him dead if they think he's telling the full truth.

Vote: Mufasa

[Jahudo]

I doubt all the scum are in the lurker group; at least one is fairly active. So I don't think we should waste a kill on a lurker. Instead we just give them more time, but they are really the people we don't want to live closer to endgame.

Something I do agree with is not letting Yos survive til the endgame though. I think we should lynch Yos sooner or later before the endgame, and keep lynching until we have a townie mayor that gives the mayorship to millar. A scummy mayor would do far more damage than a townie mayor would help, in my opinion.

Say millar can't be the mayor, would you still want to use this strategy? If so, why?

I don't think it's possible and I don't see why you would want to do any of this.

[Jahudo]

We need Mufasa to talk with us about who his "vengeful kill" will be. This is important regardless of whether or not you think he has a vengeful kill.

NO ONE ELSE VOTE MUFASA RIGHT NOW!!

My preference is MikeSC (day 2 fence-sitting and preference for picking out smaller points of discussion instead of larger ones), dramonic (lurking vis a vis not giving opinions on the game and stalling to show any sign of giving opinions on the game), or Gorrad (gut based).

I would definately not want these people veng-killed: zwets, dizzy, juls.

[Jahudo]

There are other reasons for getting this info out of Mufasa. Call it WIFOM for him to make a statement calling someone scum if he turns out to be scum, but I wanted to hear it.

[Jahudo]

Is anyone else worried that Mufasa might be a vampire? How would we kill him if he was? I haven't read a game with one in it but I think we'd try to lynch him again.

@subs: I don't think anyone's roleclaimed. Yos has two votes because he's the mayor. millar has no votes because he's an idiot.

[Jahudo]

I think some good leads today are the voting trends and Percy's posts.

Percy placed alot of votes and pressure on lurkers like Ztife and ZONEACE, which I think he would do on town and scum alike because it's not too damaging tells and it allowed him to skip over more important discussions.

Percy voted Yos as the mayor in his first post and again later day 1 as a more serious vote. At that time BM was the highest Mayor wagon with 6 votes and Percy's vote on Yos was number 3. Before then Percy was against the BM mayor wagon and more-or-less neutral on Yos.

If scum really wanted a scum mayor day 1 Percy would have handled his attitude towards BM differently, because the way he was going he couldn't have hopped on the larger BM wagon. I could see Percy voting for the veteran scummer, Yos or BM, if his team wanted the scum mayorship or not, just because it would be an easier vote to justify than one on a newer player.

I don't think Percy's mayor vote strongly changes what Yos could be, but it makes BM look a little more town.

---------------------------------------

Day 1 end wagon:

millar13:

Gorrad, DizzyIzzyB13, Barrylocke, Shinnen_no_Me,

Mufasa, Millar13, The Fonz

, Yosarian2,

dingoatemybaby, Dr Pepper

, zwetschenwasser

Day 2 end wagon:

Dr Pepper:

dingoatemybaby

, Jahudo, Kaiveran, zwetschenwasser,

Percy, Mufasa, Dr Pepper

Day 3 end wagon:

Mufasa:

NabakovNabakov Jahudo DizzyIzzyB13 dramonic Gorrad

Juls

Yosarian2 zwetschenwasser

Thoughts:
-the zwets hammers and presense on all three wagons is pretty typical for him. null tell.

-the day 2 wagon doesn't necessarily have any scum on it because of the way people were broken up.

-I doubt both day 1 and 3 wagons are completely devoid of scum, just because scum like to lynch town. I'm less concerned with timing of vote or initial justification of the vote, but I'm more interested if the voter followed up with questions/pressure or they just sunk back into the shadows and camped on the wagon. I'm still looking into that...

[Jahudo]

Who do you think is scum, dramonic?

[Jahudo]

His claim elaboration on day three creams fake, but I fail to see how he would do that as scum more likely than town.

I don’t understand this. You think town would lie when they are under pressure?

Every time I come across a player that I find seeming scummy, I look at the death list and notice that they weren't one of the lynches.

Who else?

Day Two:
There are people cross defending each other left and right and misrepresentations all over the place. Let someone defend themselves or answer their own questions/accusations rather than any random person jumping in front of them to answer first. Even if you think it’s a bad accusation, a lot can be learned by seeing how someone responds. Prematurely defending them deprives the town of getting these reads on players.

What posts/people are you referring to, or are they dead now?

There was at least one werewolf on the day two lynch Jahudo, you missed Percy.

Yes. I meant living werewolves as of day 4.

Unless you think we can get a nearly unanimous verdict, we are best off just going with our instincts, and assuming that scum will be clueless anyway, and probably cancel each other out.

When I read the rule where the mod locks the thread and has people PM him votes, that sounded like twilight to me. And I think it’s standard that a scum group can night talk during twilight, so why would the scum be clueless if this is the case?

I'm in favor of a mike lynch as I've said before. I'll bring some quotes up because this dramonic thing has gained alot of momentum over tells I don't trust as much anymore (feeling guilt over a townie loss) or I don't trust in this scenario (role-fishing when we had been talking about the possible roles as a group yesterday).

[Jahudo]

This game has a twilight phase and from what I can tell today's event doesn't eliminate it, unless the mod is online at the time of the hammer.

13. If a lynch occurs, then the game enters ‘twilight’, where all alive players apart from the player who has been lynched are allowed to freely converse (but not allowed to cast any votes) until I lock the thread and post a death scene.

Mod: Can you tell us if twilight counts as night in this game? Can you tell us if today's event changes the rules of twilight?

[Jahudo]

Part of my case on MikeSC6 is how he treated the day 2 wagons.

Twice he said that the Dr. Pepper and Dingo debate looked like a misunderstanding on both sides and he didn’t place suspicion on either one. Links: Post 749 and Post 808

Twice he claimed not to have read the whole debate, including one post that is after he thinks the debate is a misunderstanding. That makes me question his confidence in post 749. Links: Post 783 and Post 802

Mike shifts his focus to Mufasa pressure while wondering how people could pick dingo or pepper as intentionally misunderstood, until Post 888 when Mike starts to find Dr Pepper the scummy one.

I'm thinking of voting Dr Pepper, the posts Kaiveran posted do seem quite scummy.

This is the Kaiveran post:

As for Dr. Pepper, his repeated misreps are convincing; post 782 and 787 are good examples. Page 32 in general sold me.

This makes me think at least one of two things is true:
1) Mike still isn’t reading the debate by Post 888 after he claimed to catchup in Post 802.
2) Mike waited for the most viable lynch wagon to appear and he threw momentum to it.

And I’m leaning on believing option 2 because the vote count at that time was 4 votes for Dr. Pepper versus 2 votes for dingo

The next thing Mike said about Pepper was this:

Dr Pepper's at L-1 right now- should we wait, see if he's still playing, and if not quiz his replacement? Though I'm not sure how a replacement could defend things that have been said by a predecessor.

Which sounds like he believes Pepper has to defend some scummy tells against him; it sounds like Mike is in favor of the wagon. It was a large turnaround from thinking Dingo and Pepper were a misunderstanding to finding him scummy, and Mike didn’t have to question Pepper at all or explain what he found scummy.

This looks like cautious scum play to let the group decide between Dingo and Pepper while he kept from taking a side until he could determine the stronger wagon and add his momentum.

Vote: MikeSC6

[Jahudo]

I wonder what this wait is doing to the people who can't post. I'm thinking of voting Dr Pepper, the posts Kaiveran posted do seem quite scummy.

If we don't get a satisfactory answer for the question you still have outstanding (I think it's the one near the bottom of page 33? That was a while ago...) I think I'll be voting. I hadn't had him pegged as scum previously, though- I can't really say why but I'd got the impression he was quite levelheaded and townie.

This second paragraph does not refer to anything in particular. What is the question on page 33? That could mean alot of things but you didn't elaborate beyond that, so I still don't know why you had a turnaround to find Pepper suspicious.

Nothing there tells me why you thought he was lurking scum and not flaking misunderstood town. When you start the turnaround you try to defend your fence-sitting with this baseless explanation, which I don't like:

I can't really say why but I'd got the impression he was quite levelheaded and townie.

And how does being levelheaded fit in with being misunderstood, something you thought he kept doing for several posts. It didn't bother you that he didn't try to see things from your perspective, but he and dingo kept getting more sure the other was scum?

Dr Peppers avoidance of questions through lurking, and just general avoidance when he did post, was what made me change my mind. Like I said in the post that you cut in half.

I am not ready to believe this. You did not ask him questions yourself, but just pointed to a page where he might have avoided a question.

Where is the general avoidance when he posted? From what I can tell, during the time he was lurking he didn't post at all. Post 811 was the last post where he answered people's questions and that was a wall of text of answers. Then he disappears for about two weeks and doesn't post once, so I don't see how you thought he was avoiding when he posted.

I'm not against the stances you took, first thinking they were both town, then finding Pepper scum; but I am questioning the way you switched because it looks under-researched, under-explained and opportunistic.

When you find the question(s) you thought Pepper was avoiding, we can go back and find every question posed to him when he was lurking and see how much was new stuff and how much he had already answered. There's probably a bit of both.

[Jahudo]

By saying I had an opinion of someone in the past tense indicates that the opinion has changed.

That is part of the reason why I don’t like it. You changed your mind about him without showing the process of you changing your mind. I think that was necessary because it involved debates you initially ignored. By not giving an initial response you were active lurking until you could come up on the side that had already won.

Well yes, if someone hasn't posted in two weeks or whatever it was, why pile up questions for the sake of it?

But they weren’t questions that had been left unanswered for 2 weeks. It was more like 3 weeks and in that time you never gave a heads up that Pepper was holding out until the group had already decided to lynch him over it.

If I was opportunistically jumping on a wagon to lynch Dr Pepper while it was popular, why didn't I do that? Why did I with-hold my vote to give him the chance to answer these questions while discussing an alternative?

The only answers to these questions are speculation on the assumption that you are scum. When you expressed suspicion on Pepper he was at L-3 and L-2, so you (as scum or town) could have added your vote without fear of a quickhammer on him before he could answer/claim.

It doesn’t matter whether you voted or not because I’m looking for momentum on the wagon and you clearly added to it without providing anything new or establishing what in particular you liked about the old reasons. That is opportunistic IMO.

This was a while ago- why have you waited until now to voice these suspicions? Why couldn't you have mentioned them at the time, or yesterday?

I did mention them yesterday. I didn’t on day 2 because I thought Pepper was scum.

I started to have my doubts about you in Post 1052 and said I’d look at your post history. And then I came back with suspicions on you in Post 1119.

The difference between you and I here is that people only had vibes on you when I started to see it too and I believe I’m the first to bring up your day 2 play as reasoning for my vote. Whereas people had already taken sides between Dingo and Pepper and you were calling misunderstanding on the early debate while ignoring the later debate until Pepper was at L-3 and MIA for two weeks and you just caught on to 3 week old suspicions.

[Jahudo]

In posts 872 and 878 you still maintained that pepper and dingo looked like misunderstanding townies. At those times had you read posts 782, 787, and/or 813?

I didn’t get the feeling that you had caught up to post 813 until you posted 888. Is this true? If so, why didn’t you say your read was incomplete in posts 872 and 878?

I think I found the post you were talking about Mike. Did you want an answer to all parts of it? Why did you think these were important questions that required a satisfactory answer from Pepper to keep your vote off him?

Why didn’t you initially understand that post 813 wasn’t about questions Pepper was going to answer, but questions he should have answered earlier? Why didn’t you say anything in your first post after 813?

Oh, one more thing since I just saw dingo most recent post. How does this

@Pepper - If I compiled a list of questions that have been posted to you that you have chosen not to answer, would that increase the likelyhood you would respond to them?

become this

If you want to answer the questions you have ignored, go ahead and answer them. But there is no way I am going to spend an hour re-reading the conversation and collecting quotes only to have to ignore or misrepresent them so you can get me posting the questions back at you over and over again to try and show you are not dealing with them honestly.

dingo's still being pretty hostile in my opinion. One of us should be lynched today between dingo and Dr Pepper. I think it should be dingo.

I thought better of it and decided there was no way you had any intention of answering my questions. I mean, you read me mocking you after I ask you questions because I predict you won't answer them. And you don't. But then you ask me to post them again? If you had any intention of answering them, why don't you just answer them? Do you not know how to go back to posts you have read before? And if you can't remember what happened in previous posts, how can you possibly scum hunt?

And maybe you can explain how you interpret this

I'm not asking him to change his vote.

to this

dingo is trying to get a vote changed without providing a solid reason.

Not that I expect you to even try to explain. You are so tied up in your web of lies that you can't answer even the most basic questions put to you.

Look familiar?

Back then and now I agree that Pepper looked scummy and he had been avoiding questions like the one at the bottom (how you interpret this ______ to this _______). I’ll give you that he should have answered that question prior to post 813 since it had been posed before. I’ll give you that before 813 he was ignoring questions.

So I understand how you could have come to your stance late in the day, but since your work isn’t there I am wondering if you really believed it and when you started to believe it.

[Jahudo]

@Mod: You still have Shinnen_no_Me in your Opening Post, but she was replaced by replacement

---------------------------
@MikeSC

It's not explicit, and I wasn't at the point of deciding that Dr Pepper was in the wrong and dingo in the right, but you can see here that I was entertaining the idea that one or the other was intentionally misrepresenting the other. Two further days without a post from Dr Pepper, his lurking made more obvious by the lack of posts from the rest of us during that time period, and I was willing to concede that Dr Pepper was the more scummy in that situation, though tentatively because I wanted him to answer the questions more than wanting to lynch him for not answering questions.

Did you consider that Pepper's ad hom attacks (post 787) and defense that dingo was being hostile (post 811) could have at least partially explained why he wasn't posting?

He hadn't been posting in any other games, which make it harder to conclude that he was intentionally lurking. The mod wasn't around to give a prod until it was too late, which also makes it harder to think he was consciously avoiding the game when he might have posted if he had been prodded. So what in particular made it seem that he was avoiding the game to avoid the questions?

---------------------------
@Zwets:

Uh... this looks a lot like the Dingo/Pepper debate...

Do you mean that the people are arguing like dingo and pepper, or they’re arguing about dingo and pepper?
Do you think Mike’s “shenanigan” as you called it is a tell?

---------------------------
@Dramonic:

is there a pretty certain amount of werewolves or do we not know that?

I guess we can only speculate at this point based on other large games we've played. Is it important to talk about today?

I don’t understand what dramonic is hoping to achieve by talking about the power roles. PR’s should not be directed when they should be hiding their identity from scummy manipulation scum and using their powers as they see fit.

Also I think dramonic should be more pro-active and tell us who he thinks is scum.

---------------------------
I’m trying to find useful stuff from Yosarian/Replacement debate over the justification of a mufasa lynch but I don’t see how it’s being used to help find new scum. IMO, town had valid reasons to vote him and scum probably did too. It’s wasn’t hard to jump on the point that Mufasa was revealing too much about his role when he shouldn’t have, and that what he did reveal didn’t sound like a very legit claim. So how do we separate scum from town votes when the easiest reason to vote him was a good reason to vote him?

---------------------------
@Rockatansky

Plus, one of my top scum candidates is on that wagon. I'll get back to him or her later. Right now, I'm going to re-read Percy and see if I can find anything interesting.

Who is this scum candidate? Have you re-read Percy?

---------------------------
@Starbuck: Have you finished reading the thread? What do you think about how the dramonic wagon developed? Was it too fast, easy, or believable if he’s scum?

[Jahudo]

@BM: Have you played with Zwet before?

@Zwet: why so quiet?

[Jahudo]

Why aren't you voting anyone zwets? Or are you waiting to place another hammer?

[Jahudo]

Mod: Can we have a vote count and prods on any inactives?

[Jahudo]

Why is this game stalling...

Because the scum don't want to bus their buddy MikeSC6, probably.

Care to challenge any points in the Mike case or rather bring up anything new?

[Jahudo]

So zwets, is your read mostly from when you pursued Yos's rolefishing? Has Yos done anything noteworthy since then? If so, have you noted it?

[Jahudo]

Mod: Should Juls be removed from the 'not voting' list?

Yes. Oops.

[Jahudo]

Sheesh, zwets. VOTE

[Jahudo]

FoS dramonic
FoS starbuck

You both are posting every day in other games and are active lurking in this game. That is anti-town.

Starbuck has not posted in 15 days on this game but has made almost 200 posts in other areas of the site since that time.

dramonic has made 12 posts in the last 15 days on this game, the most recent being 4 days ago, but has made 24 posts in other games since his last post here.

We know the mod's sent out prods and you've both been on the site. There is no excuse not to give a pro-town sounding update on your reading if you still aren't done yet.

So where are you on your reading?

Same goes for "Mad Max" Rockatansky although he hasn't posted anywhere in a while. Just about 9 posts elsewhere since his last post here 2 weeks ago. Actually, that's good enough for a

FoS Rockatansky

[Jahudo]

zwets, what are you trying to say with those emoticons?

Questions for Dramonic:
1. Why do you think zwetschenwasser is hammering every chance he gets? Is this a good/bad/scummy thing to do?
2. Do you think the Mufasa wagon was scum driven? How so?
3. Do you think the millar wagon was scum driven? How so?
4. Do you think people have to provide good reasons before they vote, or is voting by gut good enough if they eventually provide reasons or unvote? In other words, what's your style; what's it going to take for you to vote?
5. Do you think anyone looks scummier than a lurker at this point? Who?

@Mike: I think day 4 is enough time for people to notice if someone changes their behavior if they think they're being suspected, and by day 4 you could probably look at them now vs. before and see if any moves don't follow from day to day. Unless I guess they just recently replaced in and haven't posted much, but those people should be under pressure to keep active anyway.

[Jahudo]

BM went from talking alot and being at the forefront of conversations to taking alot less and not being as pro-active. I feel that too but I haven't played with BM before so I don't know if this is normal or which personality is normal?

I know zwets, but he proly hasn't read all those pages

[Jahudo]

he hasn't said either way. the more he delays the more I want to label him scum

[Jahudo]

yeah, but like if you've read day 1 all the way through, you can talk about that if you've got the time? We don't know where you are in reading reading.

[Jahudo]

@Mod: How is the replacement searches going?

@BM: So you still want to be replaced but it doesn't have to do with the exams you had? Does zwets look different in this game from his town games?

[Jahudo]

Zwet has been consistent though- quick-hammers aren't cool, but I understand that Zwet likes to quick-hammer whether he's scum or not.

But does he only try to be the hammer like he is in this game? I don't have that answer at hand but I'm sure in other games he votes different people throughout the day before trying to be the hammer. I do think he likes to be the hammer though.

[Jahudo]

On a sidenote, the fact that Percy died of poisoning means 95% chances are we don't have a NK town role. The witch killed him.

The Fonz was a witch and he died the same night as Percy. Maybe there's two witches but we don't know.

Also was has starbuck done to get a town vibe? Do you mean starbuck's replacement, Kaiveran?

[Jahudo]

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, why?

[Jahudo]

millar, are you trying to vote or...what are you doing?

I think there's still alot of votes on dramonic, but I haven't seen much follow-up on that front. Who thinks that's the best lynch?

[Jahudo]

I don't think he was rolefishing. There is very plain evidence on the contrary.

@Dizzy and Starbuck: Why do you still think he was rolefishing?

What do you have to say with the rest of the game?

[Jahudo]

Mod's been gone for two weeks. Alot of the players just aren't playing. Is this game going to be abandoned?

We don't know if Zwety's play will be a liability down the road, even if he isn't NK'ed. Maybe he is cleared by a PR or maybe he lynches scum. Alot of things can happen, so I don't see why lynching based on playstyle is a good tactic now or ever. His contribution does not really hinder the game more than any of the lurkers here anyway.

[Jahudo]

Why don't you like it starbuck? And why do you think dramonic was rolefishing?

[Jahudo]

Well you say you're researching our game setup "Werewolves of Millers Hollow". The real life game is an open setup from what I can tell, and everyone know what power roles exist and what they do.

I thought dramonic was asking which power roles were still alive, (like the thief, cupido, fortune teller, etc), which you don't have to ask for claims to figure out they haven't been killed yet.

And about the case on mike: Have you not read up to that point Starbuck? Or do you just have no comment on it so far? I can restate my own case if people can't find it.

[Jahudo]

I would think that asking which power roles were still alive would count as fishing as well.

How so?

[Jahudo]

In theory that sounds like something scum could try to do, but I don't see how his question increased the odds that a power role slipped their own role. For instance, my knowledge of a fortune teller does not mean I am a fortune teller.

So if I had told dramonic about the fortune teller when people say he rolefished, I can't imagine why he would then NK me thinking I was the fortune teller.

[Jahudo]

Unless someone is dumb enough to respond by saying, "Yes I know there is a fortune teller alive because I am one"

[Jahudo]

plus not everyone is familiar with the card game.

Ok, that is something I can agree with. Most of the setup discussion stemmed from dramonic's question, but it wasn't there before that.

I think I understand the other side now.

[Jahudo]

We dont have a mod so if something were to happen, we'd have no way of knowing.

[Jahudo]

But we don't know if one of them was a werewolf, so they might not be 3rd party.

[Jahudo]

Why are you suggesting this now dramonic?

BTW, I think its a bad idea.

[Jahudo]

I think the dissatisfaction event is a convenient time to suggest this, since getting rid of two townies instead of one tonight would help scum stay alive.

[Jahudo]

But scum can't control the dissatisfaction, it's a hidden vote and the town can influence it much more greatly

I had already made a bad speculation because the NK's would take place after the hidden vote. Anyway, the only good thing I see about outing the lovers is if they were 3rd party, but we have no way of knowing. I think losing 2 town votes now hurts us more because we'd lose those votes for all days and not just endgame.

@Nabakov, what do you mean dramonic's plan wouldn't work?

[Jahudo]

@Starbuck: What, there's no way to find scum in days 1-3? Because stuff happened back then and you still haven't commented on it. (and some other replacements too)

[Jahudo]

A lynch with 13 alive takes 7 players and only 8 players are currently active, which explains why a lynch is not likely to happen until we get our replacements.

Also, if we lynch before people are found, we could go into dissatisfaction with a potentially underpowered townie presence.

Actives:

MikeSC6
DizzyIzzyB13
Yosarian2
Jahudo
Gorrad
NabakovNabakov
Starbuck
Dramonic

V/LA

zwetschenwasser

In need of replacement:

Ztife
Battle Mage
The Replacement
Rockatansky

[Jahudo]

I said earlier, if you have something that you need me to comment on, please bring it up. Link me to the post, quote it. I'm not going to go on a wild goose chase for you.

That's not how this game works. I find it questionable that you have found nothing to say about any of the active people in this game besides dramonic.

It is an ideal scum strategy but an unusual town strategy (not uncommon as much as anti-town) to only focus on one player and hold off on reading anyone else, because you could hop onto anyone that becomes a viable lynch tomorrow, and so forth for the rest of the game.

So I have no reason to think you are town and a good reason to think you are scum right now.

----------------------------------------------
To reiterate a major point of the mike case:

I'm thinking of voting Dr Pepper, the posts Kaiveran posted do seem quite scummy.

If we don't get a satisfactory answer for the question you still have outstanding (I think it's the one near the bottom of page 33? That was a while ago...) I think I'll be voting. I hadn't had him pegged as scum previously, though- I can't really say why but I'd got the impression he was quite levelheaded and townie.

This post occurred after multiple Mike posts in which he doesn't understand what makes Pepper look scummy. The only things Kaiveran pointed out had previously been addressed and Mike had a different opinion about those things the first time around.

The only thing that changed from page 33 to page 36, how I see it, was the shift from the mufasa wagon to the pepper wagon.

Mike had only read/re-read up to a certain point on Page 33 (post 808) but if he was following the current game by that point he should have been reading and commenting on the same posts Kaiveran did to make Mike change his mind on page 36. But by page 35/36 Mike still had the same perspective on dr pepper as he did on page 33 (post 808) without showing any insight into posts 782 and 787 or Page 32.
----------------------------------------------
So who thinks that's a null read and why?

[Jahudo]

The voting: It's to prove I'm not a lover, since I voted everyone without getting modkilled (even if I were a lover knowing Haschel is absent, would I take that risk? No way in hell)

Mod: Can you confirm or deny this as a rule?

[Jahudo]

We do need a development so I'll vote because I want dramonic to claim and us to talk about his claim. Dizzy has a point that dramonic's activity and focus on power roles might have to do with his own stake in the game, so I want to know his role.

Enough people (more than the number of werewolves I'd expect) say he's scum, and that's the main reason I'm voting.

I still don't think the evidence leads him to be scum and my gut says he's town, but I don't care if I get flak for thinking that while I'm on the wagon.

unvote;
Vote: dramonic

Claim now because you're at L-1.

(7)dramonic: NabakovNabakov, Gorrad, DizzyIzzyB13, Starbuck, Ztife, MikeSC6, Jahudo
(2)zwetschenwasser: Battle Mage, dramonic
(2)Starbuck: Yosarian2
(1)MikeSC6: The Replacement
(1)The Replacement: Rockatansky
(0)Yosarian2:
(0)Battle Mage:
(0)Jahudo:
(0)DizzyIzzyB13:
()Ztife:
()NabakovNabakov:
()Gorrad:
()Rockatansky:

Zwets, try to hold off on your scummy quick hammer until after he claims and we have some talk.

[Jahudo]

I thought BM left this game? Welcome back, I guess?

Vote for executioner: Gorrad

he seems town to me

I'm up for lynching all the flakers. Or MikeSC. Whichever.

[Jahudo]

If the VI's allowed to take that role, I'm all for it. Someone would replace in to help.

[Jahudo]

Actually since millar's last post was a month ago maybe he doesn't need a replacement. Just have the mod give him a prod when we need him.

Vote for Executioner: millar

[Jahudo]

Actually since millar's last post was a month ago maybe he doesn't need a replacement. Just have the mod give him a prod when we need him.

Vote for Executioner: millar

This makes no sense. We need the Executioner to be someone who is involved and up to date with the game in order that scum do not take advantage of any delay in getting information. I think Yos is the best option other than myself.

Anybody as executioner couldn't give us the information until the next day and we would all want to wait for the flip before lynching again.

The only advantage to giving it to a playing player is that they can use the flip information in a power role if they have one.

But giving scum this power is basically giving them the game.

[Jahudo]

Vote for executioner: zwets

[Jahudo]

Piper targets two a night in the card game. The role would be broken if the piper was seen dancing, so Dizzy cannot be the piper.

Ztife is the best candidate for inactive-piper. BM posted closer to night, but Ztife was inactive for a whole month whereas ztif was around for the other nights.

Vote: Ztife

[Jahudo]

Okay, then just vote for scummiest.

unvote;
Vote: MikeSC

[Jahudo]

No access until Aug. 25, then back to limited access.

[Jahudo]

I'm back to limited access and got caught up on what I missed.

Gorrad's reaction to being under pressure looks questionable. He claims early and pulls at a few suspects without providing any reason, which all look scummy. Especially his recent calling out of Yos which doesn't seem to correlate to anything he previously said.

It does seem like he's been coasting through this game and the disinterest looks real, but I also think we all have shown these traits to an extent so I don't think its a good indication of alignment.

But his obliviousness to this game looks genuine in how he didn't know dramonic was killed or what the piper was even though we've discussed that role alot. As werewolf I'd think he would care more about the piper, so if he is scum I'd think he'd be the piper actually. But if that's the case then his obliviousness would need to be an act, because otherwise who would he know to make dance?

I want to look at some past Gorrad games to see if he's telling the truth about how he plays as VT vs power role or scum. That might actually be a reliable tell because I doubt he'd put up a different act here if he's really this disinterested.

And I still prefer a MikeSC lynch for reasons I've already given and nothing new. But Gorrad needs to explain his suspicion of Yos.

[Jahudo]

starbuck is probably werewolf. Dizzy, Piper?

Do you really think the piper is dancing?

[Jahudo]

The choice is easy for me
I'll be back tomorrow to look at Starbucks posts and see what I can find.

Vote: Starbuck

[Jahudo]

I guess I have to claim now since Nabakov must either be lying or have had a role affect his tracking.

I claim

Werewolf

. You'll lynch me next obviously but this is better than losing today. There's no way I'm giving away anything else I know.

[Jahudo]

Yeah, kills are typically the first in action resolves so as long as there's nothing to stop our kill, I guess we can wait until night and I'll just kill for my team. You guys really owe us now

Does Yos get to keep targeting people? Maybe he should kill an inactive. Who's that again?

[Jahudo]

It is.

unvote;
Vote: No Lynch

[Jahudo]

Meh, I wasn't into my role at all. Good game scumteam. Nabakov had me fooled the whole time.

my role pm

You are the Piper. Each night you will select two new players to fall under your musical spell. They will wake up dancing during the night and will remain charmed for the rest of the game. All charmed players will know who each other is (are?), but will not be able to communicate in any way, and they will not know why they are dancing. You win when all LIVING players are under your spell and you are still alive.

Let's see if I remember all my night actions:

Night 1: DizzyIzzyB13 and Barrylocke
Night 2: Juls and Percy
Night 3: Rockatansky and The Replacement
Night 4: I don't know??
Night 5: Battle Mage and Ztife
Night 6: zwetschenwasser and MikeSC6

I targeted people I thought have the best chance of surviving while not being so pro-town they'd be the obvious NK (which I was wrong on a few times), so lurkers and people that I just guessed were going to be hard to bring up cases against.

Thanks for modding MafiaSSK and HC.