Mafia 98 - Apennine Mafia (Game Over)

[GIEFF]

Myself: I know hascow from one ongoing game, but would put Sens, BM, and Mastin much higher on the "to kill" list than I would put him.

Kairyuu, what pro-town reason is there for listing the players you think that scum should kill?


jammer, how many scum do you think there are in this game? Why?

[GIEFF]

Vote: jammer

Oops.

[GIEFF]

Jammer stated there are 4 scum as a fact, not as a guess, and without any reasoning presented. I don't know why a townie would just take a wild guess another player made as "believable truth."


jammer, why did you so readily assume 4 scum?


Mastin, why do you think it is a fair assumption? Do you find it odd that jammer was so quick to adopt alexhans' hypothesis?

[GIEFF]

If jammer is town, he took alexhans' observation that 4/16 = 25% as "believable truth" and accepted the 4-scum theory as fact.

If jammer is scum, he KNOWS how many scum there are, and forgot to pretend not to.



I think the second explanation is far likelier, and hence, my vote. Unless jammer has another townie-based reason to so readily assume 4 scum.


And Mastin, do you mean that jammer shouldn't assume 4 scum because it may be wrong, or that he shouldn't assume 4 scum because it is scummy?

[GIEFF]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 33#1527733

Mathematically, even 2 scum are favored to beat 14 townies. I think 3 is a reasonable amount.


But the reasonableness of the assumption is just a secondary point. Where you messed up, jammer, is in revealing that you KNOW how many scum there are - you are not guessing. Scum know how many scum there are, and town don't. This is simple.

[GIEFF]

And Mastin, do you mean that jammer shouldn't assume 4 scum because it may be wrong, or that he shouldn't assume 4 scum because it is scummy?

Aren't they kinda one and the same?

I will answer your question once you answer mine.

[GIEFF]

I said it is reasonable. I did not proceed as if it was fact, as you did. I know you understand the difference.

[GIEFF]

Mastin, are you still happy with your vote for BM?

-----------

Sens, I take it your vote for jammer is semi-random OMGUS, and has little to do with my or Kairyuu's reasons for voting him. Is that correct?


------------

Zachrulez:

As is Gieff, due to his attacks on Jammer over stating 4 scum as fact being some kind of "scum slip." I don't subscribe heavily into that as a strong scumtell. In fact given that 3 scum tends to make a lot more sense in this kind of a setup, I think it's more likely that Gieff is scum attacking Jammer's "slip."

Although the math states that 2 mafia is the most balanced, the math assumes random lynches, and does not take into account the fact that finding scum gets exponentially easier as more are lynched. I do not think that 4 scum is so unreasonable that it cannot be the case, although if there are 4, we are in for a tough game. I actually think that 4 scum is more likely than 2, as a 2-scum setup would be way too swingy, and Yaw may not have been familiar with that particular bit of theory.

Can you give your reasoning as to why "3 scum tends to make a lot more sense in this type of setup?"

-------

Does anybody have a link to a similarly-sized all-vanilla game, or can somebody more experienced with vanilla setups (or Yaw's preferences/knowledge of vanilla setups) shed some light? If 4 scum is extremely unlikely, then jammer's scumminess drops dramatically. However, the fact that two players (alexhans and jammer) decided 4 scum was the most likely scenario makes me think a 4-scum setup is not as unlikely as zachrulez and Cephrir believe it to be.


-------

jammer,

How many scum do you think there are in this game? Why?

[GIEFF]

Thanks, Zachrulez. I read some more through the wiki and mafia discussion, and the standard 2 scum vs. 10 townies setup is a DAY start (note that this post is by Sensfan, oddly enough), so for comparison purposes, a 4-scum setup here would be 4-scum vs. 11 townies. Adding 2 scum and 1 townie to a balanced setup is obviously unbalancing, so 4 scum is just too unlikely for jammer's assumption to be a slip, even if a 4-scum setup assured jammer as scum 100% of the time.

unvote jammer

----

Sens, I take it your vote for jammer is semi-random OMGUS, and has little to do with my or Kairyuu's reasons for voting him. Is that correct?

My vote for him is because I think he's more likely than the rest of you to be Scum.

Why

do you think he is more likely than the rest of us to be scum?

And another question - you obviously know that the 2/10 setup is a day start, and that 4 scum is probably very unlikely. Why didn't you contribute to that discussion when I asked people with more experience to shed some light on it? Is it a coincidence that the person your silence incriminated (in my mind at least) is the same person you voted for without providing any reasoning?

[GIEFF]

My vote for him is because I think he's more likely than the rest of you to be Scum.

You misquoted, jammer. Sensfan said this, not me.

If this game has 4 scum, I think you are very likely to be one of them, jammer. This has not changed. What did change was my opinion of the likelihood of there actually being 4 scum. Does that make sense?

----

Mastin, are you still happy with your vote for BM? (I know I already asked this, but wanted to make sure it didn't slip through the cracks)

[GIEFF]

camn, that is a LOT of assumptions on which to base a vote (which you said was NOT random):

1. VP Baltar would not kill the player he views to be the most pro-town.
2. VP Baltar does not view hascow as particularly pro-town.
3. VP Baltar, if scum, would have been the one to choose the scum-kill.

And you are still confident enough in these assumptions to leave the door open to return back to Baltar later. Is there something else going on, or did I accurately sum up your reasoning?

Vote Mastin

[GIEFF]

Wrong, he said “believable truth”, twisting of words is scummy.

Look at the chronology. I twisted no words.

Still doesn't eliminate the fact that one of the people who knows him had to have killed him.

With 4 scum

, you're trying to find out what one of them would kill. Include a wifom-kill argument, and we got little if anything to find mafia on. It sounds pretty random to me.

jammer, how many scum do you think there are in this game? Why?

Scum amount according to alexhans. He said 4 and I took it as a believable truth. I think 4 would fit well with 16 players.

He only used the words "believable truth" once I questioned him about it. What got me suspicious was when he just went forward assuming there are 4 scum in the game, especially when I thought a 4-scum game was a possibility, even if unlikely. His later use of the words "believable truth" do not change the fact that he stated "with 4 scum" as if it were fact.

You may think it is just semantics, but in this game, words are all we have, and the way they are used reveals a lot about what their owners think.

-----

Wheras policy-lynching GIEFF for being too awesome... that might be doable...

Buddying is buddying, even if you try to hide it by also throwing in a toothless vote.

[GIEFF]

And you say I am the one getting bogged down in semantics?

Chronologically you stated he said it as Fact. He never uses the word fact. Hence you twisted words.

Do you or do you not feel that jammer assumed there were four scum? Regardless of whether you want to call it truth or a fact, the point is that jammer assumed there were 4 scum, and THAT is what I found scummy - the unquestioning assumption.

I have explained why I found that scummy at the time, and I have explained why I no longer find it as scummy. If there is something you would like me to clarify, I would be happy to. But I did not misrepresent anything jammer said in order to inform my vote.

[GIEFF]

Long posts do not mean pro-town. I don't think Mastin has acted pro-town at all.

Mastin, if your goal is to hunt scum, why are you warning players (specifically, jammer) ahead of time as to what you find scummy? Wouldn't you catch more scum by letting scum continue to dig a hole for themselves?

And if jammer has done things that you find scummy, why have you warned him to stop instead of voting him? For claiming to be such a big proponent of getting out of the RVS, you seem to have little interest in scumhunting, or in putting your votes where your claims of scumminess lie.

Here are the two times you have warned jammer to step back from the scum-ledge instead of letting him walk off it:

1. (Post 8):

   You think(and others?) talking about meta, is a better way to find scum, then simple scumhunting?

   Better than the RVS. We essentially skipped it with the metagaming scumhunting. Relying on scum hunting is what we'll eventually do. But for now, Meta rules.
   

   And anyone who gets rid of metagaming as an argument with our current kill is going to instantly be labeled more likely to be scum from me.

   If you really thought being anti-metagaming was a scumtell, you would not telegraph this so cavalierly. If your goal is to catch scum, you would wait and see who actually WAS anti-metagaming, rather than warn them away. You are clearly more concerned about leaving the RVS (or looking as if you want to leave the RVS) than you are about catching scum.
   
   "Careful now, scum, don't do anything scummy, or I'm liable to catch you" should not be the mindset of a townie scumhunter.
   
   
   
2. (Post 31):

   This is a fair assumption, but not to be stated as fact.

   And you yourself clarified that jammer's assumption should not be stated as fact because, at least partially, it is scummy. Once again, if your goal is to find scum, you would not find scummy things just for fun, like collecting seashells. You would find scummy things, build a case, make a vote, and try to convince others you are correct. What you have done is more helpful to scum than not - "How to stay off Mastin's suspicion-list in 5 easy steps."

You are posting a lot, but the bulk of it is in information (about how to proceed with the game) rather than analysis (about who is scum), which is a great way for scum to look busy without actually doing any scumhunting. Similarly, just voting for a player who has been in a lot of games with hascow is a neat way to avoid any more substantial scumhunting. Making up a formula (more games with hascow = scummy), and apply it unthinkingly is a lot easier method for scum to "scumhunt" than actually trying to look at possible scum and town motivations, while also remaining consistent.

Normally, it wouldn't be a big deal not to have done much scumhunting by page 2, but you continually call attention to the fact that you are eager to leave the RVS, much more so than actually trying to scumhunt your way out of it.

And most telling of all is your focus on the way you are viewed by other players, to a MUCH greater extent than your focus on catching scum. This mindset manifests itself time and time again in your posts:

• Has wouldn't be my choice with players I know;

  you can auto-clear me from picking the kill

  , as I would definitely try to lead as mafia and would have to be overridden by someone who I respect highly as a player and recognize the skill of to not nk another pro-town player.

• Eh, fair enough, but I wouldn't recommend a random vote for very long.

  I'm killing the RVS

  without using my favorite tactics.

• By the way,

  I just killed the RVS.

• One of these days, I so totally want to ask a mod if I can nk myself as scum to create confusion and for the hilarity, but, well,

  I'm not scum this game

  and that'd do no good.

• Kairyuu, what pro-town reason is there for listing the players you think that scum should kill?

  Why only singling out Kai? I did it as well.
  And, to answer,

  it kinda clears me

  , if you believe what I say. (You should.

  I don't lie

  , even as scum, 'cept when I roleclaim as scum.)

• Me? Use wifom? Ha.
  
  

  The guy who never lies

  regardless of alignment 'cept about his alignment, pulling wifom. That'd be the day...

As these quotes clearly show, you have spent a LOT more effort talking about how helpful, townie, and eager to catch scum you are than you have in actually trying to find the bad guys.

[GIEFF]

Do you or do you not feel that jammer assumed there were four scum? Regardless of whether you want to call it truth or a fact, the point is that jammer assumed there were 4 scum

Actually it is very important because you were saying that he KNEW there were four scum, when what he really said was that he found alex's case to be "believable truth". The operative word there is believable...ie a theory to be believed. You definitely look scummy in this exchange as trying to stretch for an argument that isn't there.

As I said before, my suspicion was aroused when jammer said "With 4 scum..." Only later, after I asked him about it, did he call it a "believable truth," but him saying "4 scum" still looked like an assumption to me, and I would rather go on that than on somebody's later claims about the matter (Cause people sometimes lie in this game - we can't all be Mastin).

Vote Mastin

OK... WTF? BENMAGE??? YOU ARE CLEARLY JUMPING ON MASTIN WAGGON... IT'S REALLY SCUMMY YES! IM FURIOUS (HENCE THE CAPS). I LIKE MASTIN. HE HELPS TOWN. HE MAY BE SCUM BUT THERE ARE NO LEADS THAT INDICATE THAT RIGHT NOW.

Damnit bro. Could you BE any more transparent? I'm intrigued to hear what Mastin makes of this. You quite clearly KNOW that Mastin is town, because you wouldnt defend your buddy like this. What i dont understand is the passion behind it. Are you and Mastin a couple irl?

OK WTF BATTLE MAGE???? YOU ARE CLEARLY STARTING A BENMAGE WAGGON.

Independent of your feelings about alex, do YOU think Mastin is town, Battle Mage? Your previous posts seem to indicate otherwise, yet you claim alex KNOWS Mastin is town. Are you so sure alex is scum that you are willing to carry that assumption to the second level, guessing others' alignment through the prism of alex-scum?

------

Alex - if you think jumping on a Mastin wagon is "really scummy", why didn't you follow up on it at all? All you did was throw out an FOS to one of the players on the wagon, without any further questioning or prodding. Looks to me as if you don't really think the wagon is all that scummy - you just want it to fall apart from THREATS of scumminess


Also, alex - if you said this:

I'm not calling anyone town until I'm REALLY convinced they are town... and event then... I will still watch them closely.

Then why are you so sure Mastin is town that you freak out when he gets 4 votes? That is inconsistent.

---------

I vote for who I think is Scum. That's it, that's all.
If you have any doubts about my ability to read with my gut, ask GIEFF.

Gut aside, you should be able to answer if your gut was influenced by the reasons I (assuming 4 scum) or Kai (trying to extend RVS) previously stated to vote for jammer. You have refused to do so twice now (maybe three times).

You'll never get scum lynched that way.
You have to convince the rest of us!

Based on past experience, it may be a good idea to consider L-2 as L-1 in this game. Sens-scum may try to use his "I WILL QUICKHAMMER ANYBODY" meta to get away with a scum-hammer, or a misguided town-hammer.

[GIEFF]

First off, I'm going to list the questions I have asked people that have not yet been answered, so they don't' get lost in the (increasing) noise.

1. Post 50:
   Mastin
   , are you still happy with your vote for BM?
   
2. Post 50:
   Sens
   , I take it your vote for jammer is semi-random OMGUS, and has little to do with my or Kairyuu's reasons for voting him. Is that correct?
   
3. Post 120: Independent of your feelings about alex, do YOU think Mastin is town,
   Battle Mage
   ? Your previous posts seem to indicate otherwise, yet you claim alex KNOWS Mastin is town. Are you so sure alex is scum that you are willing to carry that assumption to the second level, guessing others' alignment through the prism of alex-scum?

---------

I actually though that Steph was town for a great part of that game. That's why I wont be hard set on Mastin town. But right now, I don't feel the case on him is enough. I think it's more of a reflex of accusing the most talkative player in the game.

I have a question for you, alex. You attacked Benmage for jumping on the Mastin wagon, without a good reason, right? Yet at that time (Post 94), Benmage had already given a reason for his vote, in Post 90. But I myself didn't give any explanation whatsoever about my Mastin vote until Post 107. You now claim that you think the Mastin wagon has little reasoning behind it, but why did you focus on attacking Benmage (who had given reasoning for his vote at the time), and yet ignore me (who had not)?

Then why are you so sure Mastin is town that you freak out when he gets 4 votes? That is inconsistent.

No GIEFF. I NEVER called mastin town. I just said that he doesn't seem town to me and that I don't like the cases on him.

Bandwagons and pressure are good, no? Mastin is FAR from a lynch, no? So when you defend him so strongly, it leads me to believe that you think he is very likely to be town. If you think there is a chance he is scum, why would you risk de-railing a wagon that could cause scum-Mastin (or one of his buddies) to give up some info? If you do NOT think that he is very likely town, then attempting to de-rail his wagon becomes even scummier.

FOS alexhans

---------------

Sicilian Mafia:

Sensfan might be a good kill. I don't know him, but I think he is a skillful player--seems well known around the site.

This shoots down camn's "integrity" theory, which seemed awfully contrived.

Camn, do you still want to leave the door open for a return to VP Baltar for these reasons, or will you take a firmer stand?

[GIEFF]

Why warn them the Mastin-wagon has no reasenable arguments instead of looking who blindly follows?

Does this mean that YOU think the Mastin-wagon has no reasonable arguments, or were you just speaking through alex's point-of-view?

[GIEFF]

Are you so sure alex is scum that you are willing to carry that assumption to the second level, guessing others' alignment through the prism of alex-scum?

haha, you make it sound so scary. I'm capable of thinking 2 moves ahead, if thats what you're actually asking. Wink
At the very least, we want an Alex claim here.

It IS scary. The last time I saw somebody make nested assumptions like that, he was scum. It's much easier for scum to pretend to look a step ahead, because they are ALREADY SURE of the first step (i.e. sure of player 1's alignment, so they pretend to use that assumption to make "guesses" about others' alignments, whereas townies would NOT make these nested assumptions so readily, especially not so early in the game). Sensfan may remember mykonian doing this in (Mini 738):

Panzers townyness is now only implied by you being scum.

And I think you would agree that you are saying Mastin's towniness is

only

implied by alex being scum, no? Please correct that assumption if it is wrong. You have said nothing positive about Mastin, yet you are suddenly completely convinced he is town, just because alex defended him so strongly? I don't buy it.

[GIEFF]

If it doesn't shoot down your theory, why won't you pursue VP on those grounds? Just to appease me? If you think your theory may be valid, and your goal is to catch scum, why would you drop it simply because I do NOT think it is valid?

And while I appreciate the compliment, that's the second time you've made a buddying statement to me, and you have also made one toward Battle Mage. Scummy, scummy, scummy. I'm not here to make friends.

Happy birthday!

[GIEFF]

Check my meta if you want to build a case on those grounds.

• Mini 803 - you were scum. Oddly enough, you actually attack people more than once for buddying up, but do no buddying at all yourself. In fact, you are actually pretty abrasive, calling people poor players.
  
  You did buddy once, though,
  to town-porkens
  
  
  
• Open 188 - You were my scumbuddy. You didn't know a lot of people, but weren't abrasive, and buddied up to ME, your scumbuddy. Actually, my moniker comes from your buddying in this post, which is part of why I am suspicious of you doing it again.
  
  
• Saving Nasubi - You were town. You were abrasive. I don't see any buddying in this game, but if I missed some, let me know.
  
  
• Open 122 - You were town, and a bit abrasive initially. I don't see any buddying in this game, but if I missed some, let me know.
  
  
• Mini 771 - You were town. No buddying I can see. Mildly abrasive.
  
  
• Medeival mafia - you were town. Mildly abrasive. Buddying to Korejora. Buddying towards Xyl. Possibly more buddying, as I didn't check all 10 pages.

By abrasive, I sort of mean the opposite of buddying (i.e. you are NOT playing to make friends), and by buddying, I mean giving compliments that are not directly game-related.



So I'd say that buddying is more consistent with your scum-meta than your town-meta, wouldn't you?

[GIEFF]

I skimmed all of those games, which I picked randomly. I do not think my "case" (I wouldn't even call it that) is strong, and I am not shoving it down your throat. You asked me to look into your meta, so I did. Why are you reacting so strongly?

[GIEFF]

Masking your over-reaction with a joke, I see. You even went so far as to edit out the part of my quote that mentioned your over-reaction.

skimmed all of those games, which I picked randomly. I do not think my "case" (I wouldn't even call it that) is strong, and I am not shoving it down your throat. You asked me to look into your meta, so I did. Why are you reacting so strongly?

If you think I am trying to twist the past to fabricate a case on you, why the joke? In your games as town, you were abrasive (for lack of a better word) towards those you thought were scum.

Not only is it not strong, it is totally incorrect! It isn't factual in any way. and your meta-investigation failed!

It didn't fail at all - I learned a lot reading your games.

[GIEFF]

I skimmed all of those games, which I picked randomly. I do not think my "case" (I wouldn't even call it that) is strong, and I am not shoving it down your throat. You asked me to look into your meta, so I did. Why are you reacting so strongly?

Then why list them after this quote? Seems you where building a case with that quote in front.

Check my meta if you want to build a case on those grounds.

It's not a "case" as I'm not trying to show that she is scum and urging people to get on her wagon. One observation of scummy behavior does not a case make.

[GIEFF]

I wrote this yesterday (and saved it in my notes), but I wanted to see how alexhans responded to BM's attack before I posted it, as my attack on BM also defends alex. Now that alex has defended himself, I will post the rest of my attack on BM:


BM, you claim that the case you made in Post 113 was enough for you to be so convinced that alex is scum (and so convinced he wouldn't defend his buddy so blatantly), that you are ALSO convinced Mastin is town. I don't think this is likely. Your case in 113 does not look like enough evidence for such surety. In order, your points are (with my resopnses after):

1. Alex wanted to use player nicknames
   . This is null.
2. Alex complimented Mastin on an obvious assumption.
   Looks like buddying, mildly suspicious.
3. Any motive given to a scumkill is WIFOM.
   This also applies to Mastin, to a GREATER extent than to alex, which makes it a very poor reason to unvote the former to vote the latter.
4. Alex is desperate to push the 4 scum theory, yet town should be cautious.
   This is incorrect – it is actually MORE cautious to leave the door open to the possibility of 4 scum.
5. Alex asks rhetorical questions (you phrased this as a rhetorical question – isn’t that odd?).
   This is somewhat valid, based on your later explanations of why scum would like to ask rhetorical questions.
6. Alex agrees with Baltar that newer players would have less say in a scum kill - you think this is a convenient because alex is saying that HE wouldn't direct a scum kill.
   I don’t see this.
7. Alex tries to appear pro-town, but isn't really saying anything.
   I disagree - this is protown, if alex really believes it is pro-town to speculate on the nightkill. I don't think it is protown, but I see no reason to be so sure that alex-town would feel the same way.
8. Alex claimed that speculating about night-kills NOW reduces the WIFOM involved in doing so. BM thinks this is wrong.
   I disagree. There is still WIFOM, but I do agree with alex that there is less WIFOM than there would be later in the game, as people will try to analyze the way the dead player interacted with others, which is not possible for the first kill.
9. Alex coached Zach.
   This is not coaching, this is cautioning, which you claim is protown.
10. Alex says that players who are first to post and post a lot are pro-town - BM disagrees.
    Viewing Mastin as pro-town is not necessarily scummy.
11. Alex believes Mastin destroyed the RVS - BM disagrees (and presents a falsely binary choice).
    Viewing Mastin as pro-town is not necessarily scummy.
12. Alex "shat a brick" when Mastin got wagoned.
    Agreed - this was very fishy.
13. Alex defended Mastin in all-caps - BM says this means Alex KNOWS Mastin is town.
    I agree it is fishy, but I don't agree this means Alex KNOWS Mastin is town.
14. Alex says he likes Mastin's theory - BM says it is not a pro-town theory.
    Viewing Mastin (or his theories) as pro-town is not necessarily scummy.

For five of your fourteen points (2, 3, 10, 11, 14), you use alex's agreement/following of Mastin to prove that alex is scum, yet at the same time you claim this means that Mastin is town. This makes little sense, and I'm sure you see why - if two players are making the same claims, how can that make one of them scum and the other town? I agree that the all-caps thing was over the top, but if alex has so often said "You're right, Mastin" and "I agree, Mastin" then is the extremity of the all-caps outburst enough to really rid yourself of ALL suspicion of Mastin, assuming alex-scum? I don't think a townie would be as sure as you are, especially after having VOTED for Mastin. Also, your claim that your vote for Mastin was random is obviously false. In Post 77, you ask camn why she didn't let Mastin defend himself, which shows that in your mind, Mastin needed defending, which is NOT the case for a random vote.

As far as your other points, only 5 and 12/13 make sense to me. All you really have on alex is that he freaked out about Mastin, which I agree is scummy, but if that's really the main reason you had for wanting to "serious-wagon" him, it makes little sense to completely ignore Mastin, and assume that he is town.

So, to sum up, you claim that your case makes you SO sure that alex is scum that you are willing to make a complete 180 on Mastin, and say that he is town, with a LOT of confidence. Yet as I think I have shown here, many of the points you brought up are not scummy - they are just observations. And as I also think I have shown here, you

LIED

when you said your vote for Mastin was random, to allow yourself to perform the mental gymnastics required to force this case on alex.

Normally, I am all for early aggression, but not when it is this inconsistent, or supported by lying about the intentions behind your vote for Mastin.

--------------

Camn:

If you truly think I am scum (enough to revote me in large font), you sure are being lackadaisical in your attempt to lynch me, which was NOT your style of play from my read of your past games when you were town. It seems to me that you made your vote so large so that you LOOK angry, LOOK like you find me scummy, and LOOK like you want to lynch me. Yet actions speak louder than words, even when those words are in 18-point font. I called your joke-vote for me toothless, and this one strikes me as just as gummy. I note that once again (as you did in post 159), you ignored my answers to your questions, as well as my additional questions for you. If you truly found me so suspicious, why would you IGNORE my posts about you?

That is

not

the behavior of a pro-town player trying to lynch a player she finds scummy. That is the behavior of a scummy player trying to

look

like she wants to lynch a player she is

pretending

to find scummy.
------

My posting rate and questions are outpacing others' posting rates and their ability to answer questions. As I don't want these questions to go unanswered, I will post them again here:

• Post 50:
  Sens
  , I take it your vote for jammer is semi-random OMGUS, and has little to do with my or Kairyuu's reasons for voting him. Is that correct? If you do not want to answer, could you please just say "I refuse to answer" instead of ignoring it for the third time?
  
• Post 107:
  Mastin
  , I assume you will respond when you return from V/LA, but this should ensure you don't miss it.
  
• Post 144 (and this post):
  Battle Mage
  , please respond.
  
• Post 159 (and this post):
  camn
  , please respond.

[GIEFF]

If you think I am trying to twist the past to fabricate a case on you, why the joke? In your games as town, you were abrasive (for lack of a better word) towards those you thought were scum.

If you truly found me so suspicious, why would you IGNORE my posts about you?

That is

not

the behavior of a pro-town player trying to lynch a player she finds scummy. That is the behavior of a scummy player trying to

look

like she wants to lynch a player she is

pretending

to find scummy.

Although I mention your meta, that is not necessary for my point to be a valid one. If you really think I am scummy, you are not pursuing it very actively - you are just grandstanding.

PS, GIEFF..... you have already totally proven that you don't really understand how to use Meta.... so any meta arguments you might bring are pretty worthless, IMO.

And your (very late) attempt to be abrasive just shows you are trying to appease me. You tried ignoring me, but that didn't get me to stop questioning you. So now you try to fit your play to the description that I gave you of what I perceive your town-meta to be, i.e. being aggressive toward those you think (or claim to think) are scum. That won't get me to stop questioning you, either.

If I told you that town-camn would jump off a bridge, would you do it?

[GIEFF]

Town-camn wouldn't pretend to misunderstand my question.

[GIEFF]

Everything I have written is speculation, but calling it insane does not make it insane, no more than calling my posts crapcases is enough to make them crappy. Yet once again, I feel that your focus is not on calling me scummy - you only call my cases crap because you want to protect yourself

I know nothing about your schedule. I knew you spent a lot of time on the 11th making 4 posts, one of which was an in-depth investigation of your own meta - you are willing to spend all that effort to defend yourself, yet hardly any effort at all to follow up on your claim that you find me scummy.

You seem to be under the illusion that you can ignore my posts because you claim to have found something wrong with them, dismiss the points I raise as "crap," and ignore the points I am sure you understand. I speculate, quite sanely, that a townie would be more open than you have been, would try to answer honestly, and would not look for a technicality to avoid a genuine response, after first trying the ignore-strategy, and then trying the appease-strategy.

[GIEFF]

When I totally refuted and destroyed your case (in 149), I asked YOU some questions.. which you have totally ignored.

Do you care to answer them now?

I did not think I had left any questions un-answered. In 149, you asked:

Questions: why did you ignore these examples?
Is that not the definition of a crap-case?
Did you even read the games?

And I responded:

I skimmed all of those games, which I picked randomly. I do not think my "case" (I wouldn't even call it that) is strong, and I am not shoving it down your throat. You asked me to look into your meta, so I did. Why are you reacting so strongly?

But to be more specific:

I did not ignore anything on purpose. A number of the quotes you bring up do not look like buddying to me. They were more game-related (related to lynches and voting), and I did not think they were buddying out of the blue, as was the case for the other ones. Simply saying "I like you" isn't enough to be buddying, in my opinion. I was also skimming the games, so I did not find every example - I even asked you to be sure I didn't miss any.

That is not the definition of a crap-case, no.

Yes, I skimmed the games - I did not read every post carefully. I read more carefully in the early portion of the games, which is when you buddied me when you were scum, when you buddied me in this game, and before there is a chance for the pure buddying to be tainted with things like lynches and votes.

------

It was never my intent to say "aha! camn is scum because she is buddying, and this proves it!" I simply noticed that you were buddying me in a similar fashion to the way you buddied me in the game in which you were my scumbuddy, and so I brought it up, and called it scummy.


YOU asked me to look further into your meta, and so I did, and you reacted quite strongly, and threw me an OMGUS vote.

I asked you why you were reacting so strongly - this was not answered. Instead, you edited this question out of my quote and ignored it, instead making a joke.

I asked you why you joked instead of answering the question about your strong reaction.

And in your next post, you once again ignored any mention of your strong reaction, and my question about WHY you ignored my first question.

Are you saying that I should have "followed up" on my accusations IN THE SAME POST that I MADE the accusations?
That is nonsense.

I am not saying you should have done it in the same post, although that would have been fine. But in your very next post, (Post 158, which you claim was you "following up") you dodge a question, make a joke, and don't attack me at all. You made much better cases than that, and were much more aggressive than that in the games I read when you were town.

And you have attacked NOBODY else this game but me, other than your first vote for Baltar, which you have since said you will not return to. No votes, no FOS's, no questions, no accusations, zip, nada, zilch. JUST me... and yet you don't seem to really think I am scum, either.

Do you find anybody else scummy? Why? Do you find anything about me scummy other than what you perceive to be a faulty case that I am trying to shove down your throat?

If you have any sane, rational QUESTIONS, please ask them.

Again:

Why did you react so strongly to my investigation into your meta?
Why did you ignore me when I asked this question, instead trying to turn it into a joke?


Do not mistake my attention on you as thinking you are the scummiest player. I would prefer to be grilling Mastin or Battle Mage, yet they are not answering my questions.

[GIEFF]

Thank you for answering my questions, camn. Calling my logic poor does not make it poor. Tabling for now is fine with me, too.

----

While Alexhans vs Battlemage | Camn vs Geiff has been going on, Mastin has fallen off the face of this game.

What's up with that?

He was V/LA over the weekend, but has returned today and posted in two other games. I eagerly await his return to this game.

Also worrisome:

Spyrex has 2 posts, and no votes or FOSs.
Cephrir has 3 non-"will catch up later" posts, and none since 4 days ago.
Sensfan has just 1 vote, in his very first post in the thread, which he refuses to explain. This is particularly odd for a player who calls himself "very aggressive", and who is active in other games.

I would be very surprised if all three were town.


Here is a full voting/FOS history (automatically generated, so there may be errors):

camn

Vote: VP BALTHAR Post 5
unvote Vote :GIEFF Post 64
UNVOTE Post 145
Vote : Gieff Post 149

Mastin

Mastin Votes: Mastin Post 6
Mastin Unvotes: Mastin, Mastin Votes: Battle Mage Post 10

Kairyuu

vote: alexhans Post 7
vote: jammer Post 22

Debonair Danny DiPietro

Vote: Kairyuu Post 9
Unvote; Vote: Cephrir Post 59

alexhans

Vote broomhead Post 12
FoS Benmage Post 94

jammer

Vote: SensFan Post 21
Vote: GIEFF Post 56

GIEFF

Vote: jammer Post 30
unvote jammer Post 55
Vote Mastin Post 69
FOS alexhans Post 127

Zachrulez

Vote: Gieff Post 45
Unvote:, Vote: Mastin Post 62

SensFan

Vote" jammer Post 46

Battle Mage

Vote: Ben Post 68
Unvote, Vote: Mastin Post 71
Unvote, Vote: Alex Hans Post 110
Confirm Vote: Alex Post 142

Benmage

Vote Mastin Post 82
unvote Post 193

VP Baltar

Vote GIEFF Post 112
Unvote, Vote: Battle Mage Post 143

[GIEFF]

Sensfan has just 1 vote, in his very first post in the thread, which he refuses to explain. This is particularly odd for a player who calls himself "very aggressive", and who is active in other games.

That's a massive misrep. I describe myself as extremely aggressive. Not as vote-happy.

But since you seem to care so much, here's a second one:

Vote: GIEFF

That isn't a misrep at all. What do YOU think an aggressive player does?

One vote would be plenty if it wasn't in the very first post of the game, or if you had also been aggressive and scumhunting. You haven't been. All you've done is thrown out two votes with no explanations, yell at people for discussing the nightkill, ignore any questions asked of you, and said BM is not scummy. How is that aggressive?

Still no reasoning behind your jammer vote, and I won't be holding my breath for reasoning behind this one.


------

The thing is, if you dont think Alex's panicked defence of Mastin was scummy, then i wouldnt expect you to agree with the case on him, because that is pretty much the cornerstone of it.

I DO think it is scummy:

All you really have on alex is that he freaked out about Mastin, which I agree is scummy, but if that's really the main reason you had for wanting to "serious-wagon" him, it makes little sense to completely ignore Mastin, and assume that he is town.

But as I said - all that other stuff you threw in your case was just fluff - you are trying way too hard to push a case on him. And the fact that after saying:

Unvote, Vote: Alex Hans

Serious vote. Serious wagon required.

BM

...you then unvoted without alex doing anything to assuage any suspicion, SHOWS that I was right about your case - you didn't believe it as much as you were claiming you did. If a serious wagon is required, why are you giving it up?

Do you still think Mastin is town, BM?

[GIEFF]

Telling the truth? How can you possibly be telling the truth about something you cannot possible know, UNLESS YOU ARE SCUM? *facepalm*

wtf man? you just don't learn do you? You keep trying to go for semantics out of context? Do you even READ what you're saying? It seems to me like you read a sentence and say whatever BS comes to your mind.

I don't think this is just semantics. When you said "telling the truth" it looked like you were referring to the possibility of 4 scum - is that correct? If not, what truth were you referring to?


Here is your quote (Post 174), in full context:

Ask any other player here if they find your consistent protests about the number of scum wierd, and every single one (probably even your buddies, if they have any sense) will agree with me.

Here is where we draw a line between peculiar and scummy. My actions were not scummy. My actions were Alexhans. I explained my actions. You already made up your mind or are bullshitting so you never tried to logically think about them to realize I was telling the truth and that it was not scummy.

[GIEFF]

Keep in mind he has 20 posts on the site yesterday alone as well.

Unvote, Vote: Mastin

Does Mastin have an alt you know of? I only see 8 posts on the site yesterday, although a couple of them had a lot of content.

[GIEFF]

I just realized that my Monday and your Monday are different things... stupid spherical Earth.

But all that REALLY matters is how many times he's posted since returning from V/LA, and you are right - it is about 20.

[GIEFF]

I only see 6......

How's the weather in Hawaii?

[GIEFF]

Not actively lurking - just lurking.

Although I think his previous behavior (self-aggrandizement instead of scumhunting) is a lot scummier than his inactivity the last two days.

[GIEFF]

Another interesting thing I found in Mastin's game as scum - he suggested analyzing the night kills.

Mastin, is night-kill speculation something you do a lot as town, too?

[GIEFF]

Kmd - if you are vanilla town, claim NOW.

Anybody against a kmd claim, please speak up now.

[GIEFF]

ONLY claim if you're vanilla townie - if not, just ignore this. But it has to be NOW.

[GIEFF]

OK thanks kmd - that was a "trap" (of Battle Mage's devising). This is a mountainous setup, so any non-vanilla claim is an insta-lynch. I would have felt dirty if it worked.

Thanks for the backup Kai and camn.

[GIEFF]

Yaw, can you please prod Cephrir and Mastin?

[GIEFF]

Being at L-2, I'd think Mastin would be able to nudge this game up his priority list just a smidge.


And Sensfan, I don't care how amazing you think you are. What you are doing is completely useless to the town, and completely scummy. You KNOW this, so what you are doing is pretty much just trolling. You are perfectly capable of telling your reasons, but you refuse to, because you want to keep your image.

Please play the game.

[GIEFF]

Note - alex has upgraded his Mastin-defense strategy from NutSoCaps and an FoS to the chainsaw.

[GIEFF]

GIEFF and others, I'm never the type of player to make alex/mastin-like posts, even in a Mini. In a Large Game, the less big posts the better, especially in the early days.

I'm not going to add even more noise to this thread by making ridiculously long cases, we have enough of that already. Instead, I'll make sure I'm on record as to who and when I suspect people, and why I suspect them. That way, there's a clear record of my suspicions, and a track record of my votes and such.

Thank you for your response, Sens.

I'm not asking you for pages and pages, and I agree that too much text can be bad for the town. I'm asking you for simple reasons. 1 or 2 lines will do. I asked you three times about jammer, and you didn't respond once.

I agree with SensFan so much it hurts me.

You agree that it is not appropriate to provide reasoning for votes, or that it is not appropriate to make large cases? Or agree with something else?



-----


I did my own investigation into Mastin's meta, and he does fall behind and lurk in a few town games. Let's look at it numerically, though:

[mrow][col]Alignment[col]Posts/Day[col]1,000's of Chars/DayLynch Lurkers[col]Scum[col]0.8[col]0.4Open 145[col]Scum[col]0.8[col]1Open 141[col]Town[col]1[col]1.4Newbie 762[col]Town[col]0.6[col]0.7Mini 760[col]Town[col]1.9[col]1.9Newbie 735[col]Town[col]1.8[col]2.3This Game[col]?[col]2.7[col]1.4


Here is a summary of Mastin's wagon:

Zachrulez: Post 63
GIEFF: Post 70
Battle Mage: Post 72 (has since unvoted to vote Alex, and now says Mastin is town)
BenMage: Post 83
VP Baltar: Post 237
DDP: Post 249
SensFan: Post 270


Baltar, DDP, and SensFan, it looks as though your votes are primarily due to lurking and meta reasons - is that correct?

----

When I get some free time, I'll do a similar meta-lurking analysis for Cephrir.

----

Thanks for the prod, Yaw.

[GIEFF]

That these Line by Line attack/rebuttal cases based on early Day 1 "slips" are not helpful in catching scum now, and not helpful looking back either.

I agree - line-by-line helps nobody, and nobody reads the whole thing.

But I also admit, I am a very poor Day-1 player. My strength is endgame.

I didn't think you were a poor Day-1 player in the game I played with you or your games that I read. Are you attempting to write off your lack of scumhunting to an early-game weakness?

Who do you think is scum, and why?


------

Baltar, DDP, and SensFan, it looks as though your votes are primarily due to lurking and meta reasons - is that correct?

See my post above. His town games where he lurked and his scum games where he lurked are different, imo, but yes it is a largely meta-based vote.

Do the numbers I provided change your opinion at all?

[GIEFF]

Mastin's behaviour was vaguely scummy, but given how much he posts, and his general meta, not really lynch-worthy. Alex's reaction to him was far scummier, and doesnt make sense with them as scumbuddies. Taking the assumption Alex is scum (which is the assumption i am making if i want him lynched), Mastin is almost certainly town. Of course, if Alex turns out to be town, this condition is no longer met, and Mastin can be looked at again.

That is a lot more than "positing," wishy-washy back-door exits aside.

[GIEFF]

A few questions of mine back on page 9 slipped through the cracks - here they are:




Sensfan - Top half of Post 219]

Battle Mage - Bottom half of Post 219] - do you still think Mastin is town?

Alex - Post 222


------------


Apparently, a lot of the games of Cephrir's wiki don't actually have Cephrir in them... does she have an alt I'm not aware of or something?

Here are the ones I did find:

[mrow]Game[col]Alignment[col]Posts / Day[col]1,000's of Chars / DayMini 564[col]Scum[col]1[col]0.5Mini 717[col]Scum[col]1.1[col]0.3Final Fantasy VII][col]SK[col]0.6[col]0.2Mafia 69[col]Town[col]0.5[col]0.2Mafia 82[col]Town[col]0.7[col]0.1Consulmaker[col]Town[col]0.3[col]0This Game[col]?[col]0.7[col]0.3


So from a meta standpoint, Cephrir actually lurks more as town than scum. I don't know how you can play averaging just a couple hundred characters a day, but it is what it is.

----------
An analysis of players who have voted for me:

jammer

jammer - Vote: GIEFF(Post 57)
jammer - Unvote: GIEFF Vote: Cephrir(Post 205)

Still not sure what you meant in post 57, jammer. You didn't follow up at all, really.

camn

camn - unvote Vote :GIEFF (Post 65)
camn - UNVOTE(Post 146)
camn - Vote : Gieff(Post 150)
camn - UNVOTE vote: Benmage(Post 305)

No real explanation from camn for two completely toothless votes.

VP Baltar

VP Baltar - Vote GIEFF(Post 113)
VP Baltar - Unvote, Vote: Mastin(Post 237)

Some explanation, based on me attacking jammer. But nothing after this.

Battle Mage

Battle Mage - Unvote, Vote: Alex Hans(Post 111)
Battle Mage - Confirm Vote: Alex(Post 143)
Battle Mage - Unvote, Vote: Gieff(Post 214)

This is my favorite. He unvotes Mastin because he is assuming alex is scum, which he claims means Mastin is certainly town. He CONFIRMS this vote. And then switches to me, ignoring the question about what this means about his feelings about Mastin's alignment. And, of course, no explanation whatsoever for his vote for me, although he provided oodles for alex.

SensFan

SensFan - Vote: GIEFF(Post 209)
SensFan - Unvote, Vote: Mastin(Post 270)

Claims it was because I misrepresented him. Ignored my response to this claim. No other follow-up before hopping on the Mastin-wagon.

Kmd4390

Kmd4390 - Unvote, Vote GIEFF(Post 320)

No explanation.



So, the question is - why would five separate players vote for me, most of whom do so without any decent reasoning (I believe Baltar and jammer's reasons, but they provide very little follow-up), and NONE of whom do so strongly thinking I am scum (as evidenced by their lack of pressure and subsequent switches off of me).

Or is this all just a coincidence?

[GIEFF]

There is no need to get personal, alex - that does not help the town.

Of course I am not implying a 5-person scum-team, camn. I am asking why 5 different people would do that, as I don't know, and I don't think it is a coincidence. And it is actually 6 people, not five - I left out kmd.

VP Baltar - I noticed it once kmd voted for me without any reason, so I went back to see what other people who voted for me said. I am mostly looking for clarification from those 6 people, reasoning, explanation, whatever. Don't you think it's odd that 6 different people voted for the same person without providing much reasoning? At least you and jammer gave reasons, but I thought they were pretty weak, and neither of you really pursued it.


If I were to answer my own question, as you suggested, it would be that I suspect that there are two scum among those 6 people, especially considering how mutually supportive camn, Sens, and BM have been.


------

Now... do you understand my thoughts on behalf of mastin's waggon? I don't see reasons but a lot of going with the general choices so people look like they're scumhunting when you're doing nothing...

No - that is quite different. There are LOTS of reasons for the Mastin-wagon. Lack of scumhunting, trying to clear himself, lurking, meta-reasons, and a lot of people have discussed those reasons.

And alex, please answer my question in Post 222. What truth were you referring to?

[GIEFF]

Are you two saying that it would make sense for ME AS SCUM to AVIOD voting lurkers?
Really?
Cuz I often get called SCUMMY for VOTING lurkers!

Of COURSE that makes sense. Lurkers are bad for the town. Why would scum want to remove them?

This also shows that you are tailoring your behavior to what you think others will perceive as scummy.

The reason I voiced my support is because, if I see a filthy lurker at L-1, I will hammer, and I don't want you guys saying it "came out of nowhere" just because you are too lazy to check my meta.
HOWEVER, I have been catching shit for lurker-tunneling lately.. so I am trying to cool it a little.

This is also a very revealing quote into camn's mindset this game.

Note how she says she is only voicing support because she is afraid of pressure on HERSELF - she is NOT voicing support because she wants to catch scum. This is what Mastin was guilty of, focusing on proving your own innocence to the detriment of catching any scum.

And notice the scummy, wishy-washy "HOWEVER," leaving whatever behavior she decides to pursue as a possibility. "I will lynch lurkers, however, I may not." She is so worried about being caught in an inconsistency later, she can't help but throw that HOWEVER in...

And the "I suck at scumhunting on day 1" excuse is bogus. At least try. There are 12 pages of accusations to analyze - you have NOTHING?

Oh, and I promise not to kill you this game, ok!?
I wanna be frenz againz!

You say this after broomhead didn't post once, and kmd has done nothing yet. If you are town, how can you promise not to want to kill him until you determine how scummy he is? And if you are town, why do you say you won't kill him as if you have a lot of control over who dies?

Were you scum in either of the two games in which you grudgekilled kmd?

FoS camn

-------

Given that you accept that all 6 people are not scum together.... the only logical conclusion is that YOU are doing something that elicits this response, right? (barring coincidence....)

No, of course that's not the only possible conclusion. 4 people voted me without stating a reason - why asume that whatever reason they had was the same one? What do you think that reason may be? I think your reason was because you were upset and sort of OMGUS-y, but I'm completely lost on Sens, BM, and kmd's votes.

How would 2 scum in the group produce the effects you have observed?

I don't think that 4 townies would vote for the same person without stating reasons. If you have seen this happen before, please link me.

[GIEFF]

So.. why are you answering for Alex and Benmage?

Was your question meant to reveal scummy behavior on their part? I did not think so, and as I think it revealed YOUR scumminess, I brought it up.


camn, can you post a brief rundown of your thoughts on each player in the game?

[GIEFF]

And I don't consider 'lynching' 'killing'.

If so, than saying "I promise not to

kill

you this game" looks a lot like a scumslip to me.

[GIEFF]

lynch me then.

I am starting to get pretty suicidal with the level of reason in this game.

Are you referring to me thinking you made a scumslip?


If you don't think lynching counts as killing, how else would you kill kmd this game? Why would you promise not to, not knowing his role?


If my logic is so horrible, these should be very easy questions to answer.

[GIEFF]

My comment to KMD is an ongoing conversation between us. The fact that you see it as a scumslip is just a byproduct of your tunnel-vision regarding me. It is no more scummy than me 'buddying' was. . . but you seem to want ANYTHING I do or say to be scummy, regardless of any kind of rational, logical analysis.

Claiming I am not being rational does not me irrational.

Here is what I know:

I know that you have grudge-killed kmd twice.
I know that both times you did so, you used a power (vig or scum) you would NOT have as a vanilla townie
I know you don't think the word "kill" applies to lynches.
I know you said you wouldn't kill him this game.


So please, answer the following two questions.

• If you are town, you don't have the ability to kill him - why would you promise not to?
  
• If you are town, why did you promise not to kill him, as he could be scum?

If you are so worried about the lack of logic in this game, then please - provide some. Who do you think is scum, and why? Logically.

[GIEFF]

Thanks.

[GIEFF]

I don't know why both Sensfan and BM claim they see nothing scummy about camn.

• She has contributed little to no scumhunting.
  
• She has shown she is more concerned about how she is viewed by the town than about catching scum.
  
• She strongly over-reacted to my investigation of her meta, and OMGUS-voted me. Once again, this was NOT about scumhunting, but about protecting how she is viewed by the town, as evidenced by how weakly she pursued it.

Sens and BattleMage, do you really find none of these things scummy? Does nobody else find any of these things scummy?

-------

Gieff- i appreciate being your favourite.

Can you please answer now - do you think Mastin is town? His towniness before was only implied by alex being scum - now that you have unvoted alex, does this change the degree to which you believe Mastin is town?

Why did you unvote alex to vote me - did he assuage your suspicions, or did you think I did something scummier?

[GIEFF]

Dammit, Walter.

[GIEFF]

Unvote

Vote: Battle Mage

[GIEFF]

I don't know if you saw it, but GEIFF brought a meta-filled 'case' against me that I only buddy people when I am scum.

That is not what I said at all. I said buddying seems to fit your scum meta to a greater degree than your town meta.

Check for yourself.

[GIEFF]

Actually, when I asked Mastin that many pages ago, it was because I thought he SHOULDN'T still like his vote for you, as he had expressed a lot more suspicion of jammer at the time.

I think you know why I am voting for you, and I think you know it's not OMGUS.

[GIEFF]

Alex didnt assuage my suspicions, but frankly, it doesnt look like his fan club are going to allow him to be lynched anytime soon.

Who is Alex's fan club?

So, we move on to your good self.

Who do you think you're voting for right now?

[GIEFF]

Here is my hypothesis for Battle Mage's internal thought process that would describe his voting behavior, assuming he is scum:

• Voting for Mastin
  : He didn't like the fact that Mastin's hypothesis led to assuming BM-scum, and therefore attacked it. He didn't find Mastin scummy, but wanted to discredit any theory that would suggest scum-Battle Mage.
  
  
• Building a case on alex
  (110, 113, 142, and 212): As BM admitted, the cornerstone of BM's case was alex's over-reaction to the Mastin-wagon (which I agree was scummy). But the reason BM threw in so many extraneous, not-scummy snippets in 113 was to appear to be scumhunting, and maybe even throw so much crap at the wall that some of it sticks, and it leads to a lynch. Note that this attack on alex caused BM to reverse his previous suspicion of Mastin, which lends support to the theory that it wasn't ever genuine anyway.
  
  
• Un-voting alex
  (213): Although BM claims to still be suspicious of alex, he realizes the alex-wagon isn't going anywhere, so hops on the next-biggest wagon.
  
  
• Voting for GIEFF
  (213): At the time BM bailed from the alex-wagon (just ONE post after a mega-large quote-war wall), both Mastin and myself had 2 votes, and both were the largest wagons. BM wanted to get on a big wagon, and hopping BACK on the Mastin wagon would be even more schizophrenic, so BM decides to follow camn and Sens onto my wagon. He provides absolutely
  no
  reasoning at the time, provides absolutely
  no
  reasoning later, and gives me absolutely
  no
  pressure.
  
  
• Unvoting GIEFF
  (353): He never really found me suspicious anyway, and camn and Sensfan had since unvoted.
  
  
• Voting VP Baltar
  (353): No idea what he means by VP's reaction to Mastin, but it's pretty clear he doesn't really find VP that scummy, as he doesn't even remember voting for him.

BM: if you are town, you will obviously have very different reasonings for your voting pattern, so feel free to present them. I have a particularly hard time trying to think of why a townie would:

• So readily assume that alex-scum mean Mastin town, after previously thinking Mastin is scum.
  
• Jump off of the alex-wagon just one post after making a huge post about him, and with alex not having assuaged any of the suspicion that you claimed required a "serious wagon."
  
• Hop on the biggest wagon, with no reasoning, not post anything of substance for 2 days, and then hop off that wagon once it fizzles
  
• FORGET that he hopped off that wagon.

[GIEFF]

Battle Mage:

[mrow]Game[col]Alignment[col]Posts / Day[col]1,000's of Chars / DayNewbie 688[col]Scum[col]1.3[col]0.5US Election Mafia[col]Scum[col]1.9[col]0.6Newbie 763[col]Scum[col]1.4[col]0.6Newbie 770[col]Town[col]3.8[col]1.7Freelancer Mafia[col]Town[col]1.9[col]0.4Mafia 82[col]Town[col]2.8[col]0.9Traitor Mafia[col]Town[col]1.3[col]0.2Choose Carefully Mafia[col]Town[col]1.6[col]0.3Crackers Mafia[col]Town[col]4.1[col]0.7Return to New Catania[col]Town[col]2.6[col]0.5Mafia 83[col]Town[col]2[col]0.4This Game[col]?[col]5[col]3.2

Battle Mage posts about 600 characters per day when town or scum, but posts about 1.5 times a day as scum, and 2.5 times a day as town. This doesn't support my case on BM, but I am still very happy with my vote for him.

[GIEFF]

I am constantly amazed that you can do that stuff.. . but if you ignore your own stats.. then what is the point?

I'm not ignoring it. I would not use posts/day meta as a sole reason for determining alignment. In BM's case, his other actions far outweigh the fact that he tends to post more often as town, and has posted very often in this game.

Not scumhunting at all is scummy.

Yes.

BM's play in this game is a great example of why scum don't like scumhunting - it's hard to remain consistent in your suspicion when that suspicion is faked to begin with.

[GIEFF]

@ Alex... I theorize that OMGUS is, if anything, a town-tell. Townies get mad when people call them scummy. Scum get scared.

Which means your OMGUS-vote of me is yet another example of you behaving in a way you think will make you seem to be town rather than behaving in a way that is likely to catch scum.

[GIEFF]

But you unvoted me before my meta-analysis.

You wouldn't call your re-vote OMGUS?


And I didn't think your first vote was at all serious. Was it?

[GIEFF]

I thought you already knew what I meant by everything?!

So I assume this means you are going to help me lynch Battle Mage?


We have enough arguing between each other WITHOUT you dodging my questions, camn. I assume you think your second vote for me was OMGUS (and also because you thought I was trying to push a crapcase on you), and I assume your first vote was 0% serious. Are either of these assumptions wrong?

[GIEFF]

The use of the word "OMGUS" is irrelevant. I ask you again because I think your vote was OMGUS, no matter what you claim. But arguing about something so narrow will get us nowhere - let's drop that subject, as it's not really relevant to the point I am trying to make.

THIS is the point I am trying to make, which doesn't depend on our definitions of OMGUS. You said:

@ Alex... I theorize that OMGUS is, if anything, a town-tell. Townies get mad when people call them scummy. Scum get scared.

You think that townies get mad when people call them scummy. You went over-the-top mad on me when I called you scummy.

You are trying to act like you think townies act, instead of trying to catch scum.

That's the point I'm trying to make. Your vote didn't make a lot of sense to me from a scumhunting perspective, but an explanation that DOES make sense is that you were trying to make yourself look like a townie. Townies want to make themselves look like townies too, but scum prioritize this, as you have done.

I would not have noticed it if you hadn't done it twice before, as I said in post 338:

Are you two saying that it would make sense for ME AS SCUM to AVIOD voting lurkers?
Really?
Cuz I often get called SCUMMY for VOTING lurkers!

Of COURSE that makes sense. Lurkers are bad for the town. Why would scum want to remove them?

This also shows that

you are tailoring your behavior to what you think others will perceive as scummy

.

The reason I voiced my support is because, if I see a filthy lurker at L-1, I will hammer, and I don't want you guys saying it "came out of nowhere" just because you are too lazy to check my meta.
HOWEVER, I have been catching shit for lurker-tunneling lately.. so I am trying to cool it a little.

This is also a very revealing quote into camn's mindset this game.

Note how she says

she is only voicing support because she is afraid of pressure on HERSELF - she is NOT voicing support because she wants to catch scum

. This is what Mastin was guilty of, focusing on proving your own innocence to the detriment of catching any scum.

Your post-facto claim that getting angry at someone who votes you is a town-tell is simply a third example showing your strong desire to be viewed as town, and so I brought it up. As Mastin did in the first two pages, you have, throughout the game, put WAY more focus on looking townie than on scumhunting.

-----

He's BSing a case to see if anyone will follow it.

No, I am pointing out behavior that I think is scummy, and explaining why I think it's scummy. If you don't agree with me, tell me why, or even better, let camn do it. Just saying "That case is BS" helps nothing. What if camn is scum?

Totally.
And to think.. I joined this game cuz I wanted to play with him again!

Appeal to emotion.

[GIEFF]

camn, picking one part out of my post and claiming it is wrong does not negate the larger point I am making. You can't deny that your focus has been more toward being viewed as town than as finding scum because you have spent almost no effort finding scum.


1. No, I don't think you are faking being annoyed at me. I do think that a very plausible explanation for your over-reaction is that it looks townie to get angry, and you had done zero scumhunting up to that point, so it at least gave you a non-random vote. I can see either town or scum doing this, as it serves both aligments' interests. But it is a GREATER concern of scum, and that is the issue.

2. It doesn't matter what YOU believe. It matters what you think others believe, or are trying to get them to believe. You are post-facto explaining your behavior as, if anything, a town-tell. Just because YOU call it null doesn't mean others will.

3. I am not misrepping you, and I am not ignoring reality. Are you really claiming that your statement about OMGUS was NOT meant to make yourself look townie? That is demonstrably false. LYING about trying to look townie is a lot worse than trying to look townie.

Here is alex's quote that you were responding to:

Camn... if you wanna know so you can OMGUS me too. Yes, you're acting scummy. OMGUS, evasiveness, lack of scumhunting, odd reactions to questions, you're recoiling too much...

@ Alex... I theorize that OMGUS is, if anything, a town-tell. Townies get mad when people call them scummy. Scum get scared.
But then again, I don't believe in town-tells, so I call it null.

2 things here are as clear as day:

1. You were trying to say that you are not scummy.
2. You did not deny OMGUS.


Yet when I make the claim that you are trying hard to be seen as not scummy, you fight it tooth and nail. When I make the claim that your vote was OMGUS, you fight it tooth and nail. Why?

[GIEFF]

You said:

@ Alex... I theorize that OMGUS is, if anything, a town-tell. Townies get mad when people call them scummy. Scum get scared.

@ Alex... I theorize that OMGUS is, if anything, a town-tell. Townies get mad when people call them scummy. Scum get scared.

But then again, I don't believe in town-tells, so I call it null.

Remember this ???

You even went so far as to edit out the part of my quote that mentioned your over-reaction.

Is that supposed to demonstrate hypocrisy? It does not.


I didn't copy that part of your quote because it wasn't relevant. All that was relevant to make my point was the fact that you said getting angry is something townies do.

You didn't copy part of MY quote because you were trying to dodge my accusation. If you are trying to call me a hypocrite, then please explain to me: which part of your post was an accusation that I was trying to dodge?

Yeah, I'm happy with my vote.

Care to provide any reasoning from BEFORE you voted me? Or is your role "vanilla townie who can predict GIEFF's future posts?"

[GIEFF]

2 things here are as clear as day:

1. You were trying to say that you are not scummy.

2. You did not deny OMGUS.

A) OMGUS is not a scumtell.

B) My vote for you was for crapcase, not OMGUS

C) One could argue that your entire attack on me was OMGUS for my voting you earlier.
D) I'm calmer'n you are. Calmer'n you are.

Oh, I didn't deny it?
Still not paying attention to reality, huh?

Once again, camn tries the strategy of finding a part of my post, ANY part, trying to prove it wrong, and hoping it negates everything else.

camn, I was talking about you not denying ALEX's claim of OMGUS. Denying mine is fine, but when you deny an accusation from one person, and tacitly admit the SAME accusation from another, that is a problem.


HERE is the full context, which makes it abundantly clear that I was talking about alex's accusation of OMGUS, not my own:

Here is alex's quote that you were responding to:

Camn... if you wanna know so you can OMGUS me too. Yes, you're acting scummy. OMGUS, evasiveness, lack of scumhunting, odd reactions to questions, you're recoiling too much...

@ Alex... I theorize that OMGUS is, if anything, a town-tell. Townies get mad when people call them scummy. Scum get scared.
But then again, I don't believe in town-tells, so I call it null.

2 things here are as clear as day:

1. You were trying to say that you are not scummy.
2. You did not deny OMGUS.

I thought it would be clear that my point #2 was referring to alex's accusation - is it clear now? Do you agree that you did NOT deny alex's accusation of OMGUS, and instead chose to say that it wasn't scummy? If you didn't OMGUS, why wouldn't you just say that, instead of try to excuse it?

Why the inconsistency in your response to alex's accusation of OMGUS and my accusation of OMGUS?


camn, I did not miss 399. I responded to it in 400.
------------

Oh and post 398 is so bad it hurts.

Do you have anything to contribute?

Some suggestions:

Tell me why my post is bad. Tell me why my case is bad. Tell me why you voted for me. Do ANYTHING remotely pro-town.

[GIEFF]

I didn't copy that part of your quote because it wasn't relevant. All that was relevant to make my point was the fact that you said getting angry is something townies do.

It was relevent. She said she didn't believe in towntells. Basically nullifies what you are making a point on.

Maybe this is why you think my posts are bad - you don't understand them.

My point: camn is acting in a way she thinks others will perceive as pro-town. In what way does camn claiming she doesn't believe in towntells nullify that? In response to an accusation of OMGUS, she doesn't deny it - she explains how it should NOT be viewed as scummy. What she HERSELF thinks is not relevant, obviously. She is not the one she is trying to convince of not being scum.


Do you see how silly it is to take one omission in one quote that is not at all relevant to the above point, just argue against that, and ignore everything else? Kmd, how sure are you that camn is town, percentage-wise?


---
@ camn's 406:

So an argument has no merit if someone else used similar words earlier in the game? Ridiculous.

[GIEFF]

camn, please answer the following questions:

• 386:
  
  I didn't think your first vote was at all serious. Was it?
  
  
• 398:
  
  Are you really claiming that your statement about OMGUS was NOT meant to make yourself look townie?
  
  
• 405:
  
  Do you agree that you did NOT deny alex's accusation of OMGUS, and instead chose to say that it wasn't scummy?
  
  Why the inconsistency in your response to alex's accusation of OMGUS and my accusation of OMGUS?

Is it me or are you mild-OMGUSing everyone who asks you a question or wonders something about you?

With that additional bit of context, so easily left out by GEIFF.. you can see that Alex was referring to me OMGUS-ing "everyone".

Obviously I don't need to reply to that, because it is nuts.
But a little chat on OMGUS theory? I would love to.

Ridiculous. alex listed OMGUS among a number of behaviors he found scummy about you. You are claiming it is a COINCIDENCE that you just happened to respond to him about why OMGUS isn't scummy? Did you not see alex call your OMGUS scummy?

It is obvious that you were responding to this accusation and not anything else.

It is obvious you are lying.

unvote

vote camn

HOS BattleMage

[GIEFF]

So there is no doubt whatsoever, here is the entire context of alex's statement to camn:

Are you two saying that it would make sense for ME AS SCUM to AVIOD voting lurkers?
Really?
Cuz I often get called SCUMMY for VOTING lurkers!

I'm just saying Camn... it's unlike you not to. I don't know why, despite your love for a lurker waggon, you'd go for active players when there were always available lurkers in this game.

You may remember that I didn't particularly like your hop voting between lurkers in our game together... But I assumed you would do the same this game because you claimed it to be part of your gameplay.

Just restating things you see, even though they are not really scummy or significant at all....... this is just IIoA, and is one of Tar's Tells.

Is it me or are you mild-OMGUSing everyone who asks you a question or wonders something about you?

So.. did either of you have a POINT when you mentioned this? Are you saying I should be voting a lurker now? are you saying that I am scum because I am NOT voting a lurker?

Yes. The point is that you're acting differently. It might have a motive.
You can do what you want.
It doesn't make you scum on it's own, no.

Camn... if you wanna know so you can OMGUS me too. Yes, you're acting scummy. OMGUS, evasiveness, lack of scumhunting, odd reactions to questions, you're recoiling too much...

Camn's response:

@ Alex... I theorize that OMGUS is, if anything, a town-tell. Townies get mad when people call them scummy. Scum get scared.
But then again, I don't believe in town-tells, so I call it null.

No matter what part of alex's post camn claims to be responding to, her response is obviously meant to defend herself.

And it is equally obvious that the below statement is a lie:

With that additional bit of context, so easily left out by GEIFF.. you can see that Alex was referring to me OMGUS-ing "everyone".

Obviously I don't need to reply to that, because it is nuts.
But a little chat on OMGUS theory? I would love to.

[GIEFF]

If I am not FAKING being annoyed.. it means I really AM annoyed, right?
Which goes totally contrary to your argument that I am just ACTING a certain way. If I really am annoyed.. then I really am consistent with my own idea of what a townie IS.. which is rally the greatest argument for me being town.

I do not think you were faking being annoyed, as I said earlier:

1. No, I don't think you are faking being annoyed at me. I do think that a very plausible explanation for your over-reaction is that it looks townie to get angry, and you had done zero scumhunting up to that point, so it at least gave you a non-random vote. I can see either town or scum doing this, as it serves both aligments' interests. But it is a GREATER concern of scum, and that is the issue.

-----

I am claiming that Alex's accusations were not about YOU.. but about how I react to 'everyone'. Thus I discussed it. You just think everything is about YOU, no?

That is not relevant. All that is relevant is that alex accused you of OMGUS, and you didn't deny it, instead claiming that OMGUS isn't scummy. Yet when I accused you of OMGUS, you denied any OMGUS at all.


-----

camn, please answer ALL of my questions in Post 410.

[GIEFF]

You took out the part of her post that would invalidate your argument. And this comes AFTER you attacked someone else for apparently doing the same thing. First, scummy. Second, hypocritical and scummy.

It did not invalidate my argument. It was irrelevant to my point, in fact.

What the hell. Ok, so you think she's really annoyed with you (not faking), but you said earlier that she is trying to respond how a townie would, which would imply that her reaction is fake. Contradict much?

All that is relevant about camn's behavior is that she is trying to be perceived as town. Alex accused her of OMGUS, and she said "townies get mad," post-facto calling herself a townie for her own outburst. Do you deny this? It is scummy that she does it in such a roundabout way. If she just said "Yes I got angry, but that's not scummy" it would not be scummy. Rather than address alex directly, she danced around it, is now pretending alex wasn't accusing her of anything, and that her response was not meant in any way to lessen suspicion of camn. What pro-town reason is there to go about defending yourself in such a circuitous way?

Next, you say either town or scum could do it, but because scum could, she's scum. Well why scum and not town if you can see it from town. Hell, if you think it's "GREATER concern" for scum, why even MENTION that it could come from town?

This is my point:

Scum want to be perceived as town. Town want to be perceived as town, but also want to find scum. So wanting to be perceived as town is ONLY a scumtell if someone is doing it a LOT more than they are trying to find scum. And this fits camn perfectly.

Yes, you are misrepping. Camn has never been one to see OMGUS as a scumtell as far as I can remember. If you think she's scum here, she must have been scum in completed games where she was town too. Oh wait. Kind of impossible.

I am not misrepping. If you read the context, her charge of "misrepping" was due to me claiming she was faking being annoyed (which I did not do), as well as claiming that because she said she doesn't believe in town tells, it means she was NOT trying to paint herself in a pro-town light.

It is as clear as day that camn was DEFENDING herself in her response to alex. As clear as day. There is no misrep.

1. Isn't that called a defense? Wouldn't it have been scummy if she didn't defend herself?
2. Why would she?

You pull things out of context, and miss the point. The POINT is that she reacted ONE way to alex's accusation of OMGUS, and another way to my accusation of OMGUS. As I said immediately after this, and as YOU stripped out of the quote:

Yet when I make the claim that you are trying hard to be seen as not scummy, you fight it tooth and nail. When I make the claim that your vote was OMGUS, you fight it tooth and nail. Why?

----

Sensfan, can you make your point in non-analogy form? That makes no sense to me.

[GIEFF]

*You accuse her of OMGUSing you
*She denies OMGUSing you
*You reply "Well, let's not get hung up on our respective definitions of OMGUS"

Whether or not her vote for me is OMGUS isn't the issue at all. I don't find it scummy, and has nothing to do with why I voted her. I was using the OMGUS to make a larger point: that camn is trying hard to be perceived as town.

I still think she OMGUS'd me, but she would just continue to deny it, so instead of arguing about that, I used something else to make my point - camn's claim that getting angry (similar to OMGUS, but something camn cannot deny doing) is not scummy. That is why I droppped OMGUS. Does that make sense?

Of course, her denial of OMGUS is moot considering she tacitly admitted to it in her response to alex. I just didn't feel like arguing something I couldn't prove - I CAN prove that she got angry.



Sens, you may remember SL noticing a similar tell on djekha/Zilla (who was scum) in Mini 738 (post 97):

Hmmm... so springlullaby suddenly appears on the scene after I note she hasn't posted, and then casts a meaningless vote (or at least it looks meaningless due to lack of explanation) after I criticize GIEFF for not voting while posting, despite there actually being a debate of sorts going on. Odd, somewhat suspicious, and definitely not helpful.

FoS: springlullaby

This also looks like you're overreacting. What it looked like to me, was Springlullaby casted a random vote and that's all. This is my first time posting since I confirmed and if I joke voted, would you be on my case because it was after you said I haven't voted? This is the first chance I had to post in the game since day one started. Ever think the same for her?

FoS: Dourgrim

because this early you seem awfully eager to write people off as possible scum for things with obvious explanations.

Vote djekha

The quote post above is a variation OMGUS: suspect someone by seemingly defending someone else for an action one has/is going to commit, the effect of which is to justify one's action.

djekha tried to post-facto clear himself by claiming that behavior HE had participated in was not scummy.

-----------

Still waiting for camn to answer my questions in post 410.

[GIEFF]

It did not invalidate my argument. It was irrelevant to my point, in fact.

I disagree.

Then you don't understand my point.

. What pro-town reason is there to go about defending yourself in such a circuitous way?

The last line of this can be answered the same way Camn ALREADY ANSWERED IT. Some townies get annoyed/angry/frustrated when being called scum.

Circuitous does not mean angry. I was referring to camn defending herself indirectly, not to the fact that she got angry.

This is my point:

Scum want to be perceived as town. Town want to be perceived as town, but also want to find scum. So wanting to be perceived as town is ONLY a scumtell if someone is doing it a LOT more than they are trying to find scum. And this fits camn perfectly.

I actually think that, comparatively, Camn is playing how I've seen her play as town. Like she said, she's a better late-game player than Day 1 player.

I disagree, based on my read of games when she was town. The below are all quotes of camn when she was town, and on day 1. She has shown nothing close to this focus on wanting to catch scum in this game.

Saving Nasubi
Saving Nasubi
Open 122 (not day 1, but her first post in the game)
Mafia in Ludd
Mafia in Ludd
Mafia in Ludd
Medeival Mafia
Medeival Mafia
Medeival Mafia

Even if camn wants to claim she is a poor player on day 1, it does not excuse the complete and utter lack of posts like the above ones.

I am not misrepping. If you read the context, her charge of "misrepping" was due to me claiming she was faking being annoyed (which I did not do), as well as claiming that because she said she doesn't believe in town tells, it means she was NOT trying to paint herself in a pro-town light.

It is as clear as day that camn was DEFENDING herself in her response to alex. As clear as day. There is no misrep.

So you don't think the OMGUS was scummy and you don't think she was trying to act how she thinks townies act?

I don't think OMGUS is all that scummy. I think that both denying and admitting to OMGUS, while claiming that OMGUS (or just getting mad) is not scummy, is VERY scummy. I think that trying to say that your past behavior is not scummy while claiming you are NOT doing this is also very scummy. I do think she was trying to act how she thinks townies act, and I do think she has tried very hard to be perceived as town.

You pull things out of context, and miss the point. The POINT is that she reacted ONE way to alex's accusation of OMGUS, and another way to my accusation of OMGUS. As I said immediately after this, and as YOU stripped out of the quote:

So what are you suggesting? She is scum with alex and it was only distancing, but then she got worried when you, a townie, called her out?

Actually, what is your opinion of alexhans?

No, I am suggesting that she is lying about her own perception of her post. I am suggesting that she

does

think her vote for me was OMGUS, and therefore tried to defend herself of that charge when alex accused her. Yet when I accused her of OMGUS, she denied it, fighting me "tooth and nail." She cannot hold both opinions, so I suggest that she is lying in order to try to get the town to see her as townie. I don't need to tell you why this is scummy.

I think alexhans is scummy. He has shown odd buddying behavior towards me (e.g. attacking Benmage for voting Mastin without reason when I had done the exact same thing, and a few throwaway lol's/qfts), and trying to agree with me after I showed him aggression. I think he freaked out about the Mastin-lynch for no good reason.

In order of scum-likeliness, I'd say:

camn
Battle Mage (recently passed by camn, and not far behind)
Mastin
alex

And of course it is difficult to get reads on Cephrir and DDP, as they have contributed so lightly.


-----

You know, I don't give a rat's ass about one particular case of a different player doing this and ending up being Scum. I am happy you brought up 738, though, since I know from there that you actually are a competent player. Which is why I don't buy that you believe the bullshit you're spewing.

Sens, my case has nothing to do with whether or not camn's post was OMGUS (as your last post claimed). Is there another reason you would characterize it as bullshit?

I will try to explain it more succinctly and clearly tomorrow, as neither you nor Kmd don't seem to understand my point. I thought KMD was just getting emotional due to out-of-game reasons, but if two people claim not to understand it, it must be something I am not saying clearly.


Kmd - you've disagreed with my case since before it really even started, and I suspect it is due to your out-of-game history with camn. I just ask you keep an open mind about what I am saying. Don't immediately look for reasons to disagree - think about what I'm saying and see if it makes sense.

[GIEFF]

My case on Battle Mage got lost in the camn-shuffle.


camn is to Battle Mage as Michael Jackson's death is to Mark Sanford.

[GIEFF]

Yes, Zach, pretty accurate. You're right - maybe I shouldn't have taken the pressure off of Mastin- I just found BM, and then camn, scummier. It's could just be because Mastin's behavior was so long ago, but I don't think that's it.

GIEFF(repeating questions, asking obvious questions, pushing crapcases)
If I got the time I'm gonna pull a case out why and what I suspect you. I think you want to hear that, not just recent events.

Yes, I would appreciate that. I would also appreciate you trying to read my case on camn before labeling it as crap - if it really does come across that way, that is my fault, as I am pretty confident she is scum. Just because camn keeps repeating "crapcase!" (11 times), does not make it so. Mafia is not the game to take others' words for things.

[GIEFF]

KMD has contributed very little scumhunting. I don't like his vote on me, and retro-active attempt to justify it. I didn't like his adamant defense of you, and his assumption that my case was crap before he knew what it was, but as he doesn't appear to be the only one to think my case sucks, that's not as big a deal.


If you get a chance, camn, could you answer my questions in 410, please?

[GIEFF]

I already addressed those questions.

I ask about KMD.. because it seems like a lot of your 'case' is based on meta-reads.
So I would like to point out that KMD has a rather SIGNIFICANT amount of meta on me. More than you, certainly.
SO if you want insight into my play here vs. my meta.. he would be a good resource.
Plus, although we like each other, both of us would be very happy to see the other dead... so I would guess his reads are as unbiased as one can expect.

Unless, of course, you are implying that we are scumbuddies. Are you?

Very little of my case is based on meta-reads. Lack of scumhunting is scummy - the fact that you DO scumhunt in your town games just lends credence to it; it is NOT the basis of the case.

I don't remember you addressing the questions in 410 - if you already did, could you do me a favor and find your responses to all four of them, and repost them?


I am not implying you are scumbuddies, unless KMD starts making quote pyramids.

Interesting stats. I guess i'll consider them a mild town-tell for myself, but really, nothing major. :P

Gotta ask though-why bother to research those stats, if you didnt intend to take them seriously enough to follow up?

I agree that it is a mild town-tell, and I did take this into account. I still think a scum-motivation fits your play a lot better than a town motivation, and the mild town-tell was not enough to counteract that. This is early in the game, and you've really gotten into it with alex. A hitter can go on a hot streak for a week, but that doesn't mean he's a .380 hitter.

[GIEFF]

I ask about KMD.. because it seems like a lot of your 'case' is based on meta-reads. So I would like to point out that KMD has a rather SIGNIFICANT amount of meta on me. More than you, certainly.
SO if you want insight into my play here vs. my meta.. he would be a good resource.

This is an appeal to authority. When has the wiki EVER been wrong about ANYTHING?

[GIEFF]

@Camn, what do you think about Gieff's 'cases' on you?
Do you think he is mafia trying to mislynch you or overeager town?

You give two options for camn to choose from.


Both assume camn is town.


Why?

[GIEFF]

I don't know why both Sensfan and BM claim they see nothing scummy about camn.

• She has contributed little to no scumhunting.
  
• She has shown she is more concerned about how she is viewed by the town than about catching scum.
  
• She strongly over-reacted to my investigation of her meta, and OMGUS-voted me. Once again, this was NOT about scumhunting, but about protecting how she is viewed by the town, as evidenced by how weakly she pursued it.

She just seems like a poor player to me.

She is not a poor player. In fact, she has been nominated for the best individual performance by a pro-town player.

No prior/lead-up explanation. Just a vote. Period. End of story. That in my book is a quintessential example of an “omgus” vote.

That is NOT what an OMGUS vote is. An OMGUS vote is a vote for somebody who has been attacking you. It's not a big deal - it is only scummy insofar as voting people for reasons OTHER than trying to catch scum can be scummy, and that it can serve as a proxy for more substantial scumhunting.


Benmage, you seem to be purposefully trying to upset camn - why?

[GIEFF]

No, both of jammer's two choices assume you are town.

@Camn, what do you think about Gieff's 'cases' on you?
Do you think he is mafia trying to mislynch you or overeager town?

Note also that jammer gives you a falsely binary choice (or a False dilemma, as the all-knowing, scum-catching, infallible wiki puts it). There are obviously more than 2 options, yet jammer gives you only two options to choose from - both of which are designed to make me look bad, and both of which assume camn is town. There is no reason for a townie to try to fit reality into a two-option scenario.

And GEIFF.. you could be 'overeager town' regardless of my alignment, no?

If you are scum, how can my pursuing your lynch be over-eager? Why answer for jammer?

Except don't think KMD is older or wiser.
He simply has played a ton of games with me.. whereas you have not.
If you are actually interested in truth, it would be silly to ignore his insight.... especially considering your reliance on my 'meta'.
Of course, no one really thinks you are interested in the truth....

My case it not all that reliant on "meta" - I simply link to other games to strengthen it. KMD has more authority than I do on your meta, so you appealed to his authority on that subject, hoping KMD's opinion negates the (ample) evidence I presented. It does not.

You know what I am already dreading? That this weekend, when, as I have already mentioned, I fully intend on getting down to the biz of reviewing EVERY player for scumminess.... I am going to hear your dumb "appeasement" argument.

It won't be that I am no longer acting 'scummy' according to you.. but that I am 'appeasing' you, which is also 'scummy'.

I would love to see your list of all players and your thoughts of them, and I will not say this is appeasement, nor will I think it.

[GIEFF]

If you push a poor case on someone.. it is poor regardless.

That is a fair point, but I think it is clear from jammer's question that he is assuming you are town, which, if you ARE town, you should find scummalicious.

I didn't think the question you were asking alex and benmage was scumhunting, but I thought it was pretty clear that my question to jammer was. I answered your question not as a defense of alex or benmage, but as an attack on you. Was your answering jammer's question an attack on me?

Jammer, I'd still like you to answer the question. What do you think the odds are that camn is scum?

And re: you ' linking to other games to strengthen it'....
You say I am NOT DOING X... and thus I am scum... but Those things I do, I do in my scumgames too! Pretty much ANY Mini game I will do a PBPA whenever things get slow. So me NOT doing them here goes against my SCUM meta, too!

I read two of your scum games, and you are absolutely right. I will not include that meta-argument when I summarize my case on you.

[GIEFF]

I agree, camn - our massive exchanges are very bad for the town, and a lot is falling through the cracks, and the pages and pages provide a convenient excuse for lurkers to remain lurking. I would like to summarize my case on you one last time, but I will try to do it in as non-provoking and concise a way as possible. I have not provoked you intentionally, and if I hurt your feelings, I apologize. It's much easier to be buddy-buddy when I know your win condition matches mine...


I would like others to comment on my case on BM, including BM himself providing his town-explanations for his actions, so people can compare them to my scum-explanations, and see which make more sense.


And I would like Mastin to stop lurking.

[GIEFF]

I am not implying you are scumbuddies, unless KMD starts making quote pyramids.

Bad argument like it was there. I was town in that game and so was Empking.

Oops, didn't realize that was a L-1 vote.

Unvote.

Hah, thought it was the final one, did ya?




DDP - it is not consistent with her town meta OR her scum meta. camn scumhunts as both aligments, so a meta argument is null. But the behavior itself is NOT null. If a player performs a scummy action, do you think that action is suddenly much less scummy because that player has never performed it before?

[GIEFF]

My succint (-er) case on camn:

I believe camn's actions demonstrate a mindset of a player who is much more interested in being viewed as town than in scumhunting. This is scummy, and goes straight to the core of the difference between scum's and town's goals and motivation.

There are multiple instances of camn's focus on "townifying" herself sneaks out. Here are the ones I found:

1. Post 149: Camn got angry at my investigation into her meta, and voted me in retaliation for it. As she never pursued this vote seriously (giving no pressure, and even ignoring my subsequent questions), it was clear to me that she was grandstanding - faking her suspicion of me so that she would
   appear
   to be hunting scum, as she had done no scumhunting up to that point. See the bottom of Post 177 and Post 180 for details.
   
   My suspicions were made stronger by camn's Post 380, in which she says that townies get mad when people call them scummy, which retro-actively explains her own behavior when I called her scummy.
   
   
2. Post 337:
   

   Are you two saying that it would make sense for ME AS SCUM to AVIOD voting lurkers?
   Really?
   Cuz I often get called SCUMMY for VOTING lurkers!

   camn reveals that she is often called scummy for voting lurkers. camn had said she would support a lurker-lynch, but had not voted a lurker. This is likely why she hadn't done so - she was afraid someone would call her scummy. A pro-town player does not put fear of being called scum above voting for scummy players.
   
   See Post 338 for details.
   
   
3. Also in Post 337:
   

   The reason I voiced my support is because, if I see a filthy lurker at L-1, I will hammer, and I don't want you guys saying it "came out of nowhere" just because you are too lazy to check my meta.
   HOWEVER, I have been catching shit for lurker-tunneling lately.. so I am trying to cool it a little.

   She is talking about who she wants to lynch NOT in order to pressure scummy players, but in order to make herself seem less scummy later on. camn makes my point for me. Nobody in the game can deny this -
   camn is more focused on making herself look townie than on catching scum
   .

But what tipped her above Battle-Mage on my scum-meter was when she lied about defending herself, LIED about making her behavior seem less scummy:

Just restating things you see, even though they are not really scummy or significant at all....... this is just IIoA, and is one of Tar's Tells.

Is it me or are you mild-OMGUSing everyone who asks you a question or wonders something about you?

So.. did either of you have a POINT when you mentioned this? Are you saying I should be voting a lurker now? are you saying that I am scum because I am NOT voting a lurker?

Yes. The point is that you're acting differently. It might have a motive.
You can do what you want.
It doesn't make you scum on it's own, no.

Camn... if you wanna know so you can OMGUS me too. Yes, you're acting scummy. OMGUS, evasiveness, lack of scumhunting, odd reactions to questions, you're recoiling too much...

Camn responded in Post 380:

@ Alex... I theorize that OMGUS is, if anything, a town-tell. Townies get mad when people call them scummy. Scum get scared.
But then again, I don't believe in town-tells, so I call it null.

camn tacitly admits to OMGUS by defending the behavior, even though she denied the same charge when I made it. I asked camn about this inconsistency, and she responded, in post 408:

Is it me or are you mild-OMGUSing everyone who asks you a question or wonders something about you?

With that additional bit of context, so easily left out by GEIFF.. you can see that Alex was referring to me OMGUS-ing "everyone".

Obviously I don't need to reply to that, because it is nuts.
But a little chat on OMGUS theory? I would love to.

camn claims she was NOT defending herself. Which is demonstrably, objectively, false - she was clearly defending her own behavior. It is incredibly scummy to try to defend yourself in such an indirect way, and then to lie about it later on.

There is no pro-town reason for this lie, but camn needed to lie in order to explain her inconsistency in admitting OMGUS to alex, yet denying OMGUS to me.

[GIEFF]

@ Battle Mage - Please respond to my Post 378. You have acknowledged its existence, but have not given hypo-town reasons for your actions. Does this mean there are not any?


-------
Thank you for your player-rundown, camn.

------

Voting for ANYONE other than a player who you think is scum, is scummy.

camn voted for me twice, and did not think I was scum either time. Reconcile the inconsistency in your claim about what you find scummy and your refusal to apply it to camn.

Yes, the self-aggrandizement + Mastin's overall play was the reason for my vote.

Well.. why didn't you state those reasons at the time of your vote, then?

Kmd voted me with absolutely no reasoning in Post 319. Reconcile the inconsistency in your suspicion of Benmage with your refusal to apply the same standard to Kmd.

-------

Of COURSE that makes sense. Lurkers are bad for the town. Why would scum want to remove them?

This also shows that you are tailoring your behavior to what you think others will perceive as scummy.

Wait, so you are saying that she is avoiding tunnelling on lurkers so she will looking intentionally scummy? I don't get what you are arguing here.

I am arguing that camn believes voting lurkers is scummy, which explains why she hasn't done it, even though it is pro-town to vote those whom you think are scum.

[GIEFF]

GIEFF, do you think that Camn and I are scum together?

I find both of you scummy. The fact that three or four players are all calling each other town makes me think there is one or two scum taking advantage of some townies.

You are so sure camn is town that you don't apply scumtells to her - this is scummy no matter camn's alignment. As is voting for me for no reason, and then using things that happen AFTER your vote to justify it.

[GIEFF]

Spy - here is a list of posts / day and characters / day from this game:

[mrow]Player[col]Posts / Day[col]1,000's of Chars / Day[col]GIEFF[col]8.2[col]6[col]alexhans[col]3.4[col]5.4[col]camn[col]8.1[col]2.5[col]Battle Mage[col]3.5[col]2.1[col]Kmd4390[col]6.4[col]2[col]Mastin[col]1.8[col]1.5[col]Benmage[col]3.9[col]1.5[col]jammer[col]2.3[col]1.2[col]VP Baltar[col]2.7[col]1[col]SensFan[col]2.6[col]0.8[col]Zachrulez[col]3.4[col]0.8[col]blackcatcontract[col]2.5[col]0.8[col]Kairyuu[col]1[col]0.4[col]Debonair Danny DiPietro[col]1[col]0.4[col]SpyreX[col]0.5[col]0.3[col]Cephrir[col]0.5[col]0.2[col][col][col][col]

Looking at this table, the top 5 people on my scum-list (based on actions, not on lurking) are in the top 5 spots after me. This is probably because I am not able to find scummy things from people who don't post a lot, and so I focus on the more-active people, which allows scum-lurking to be a successful strategy. Which is bad.



Spy, do you have any suspicions of anybody based on something besides what you call "spew"? Have you read my case of BM in post 378, or my case on camn at the top of this page?

What do you mean when you say "saw your name get sniped?"

[GIEFF]

And is it my fault you did things later to reinforce my opinion on you?

No. But it IS your fault you provided no reasoning to start with, and it IS your fault that you still haven't really given any reasons, just like Battle Mage, Sens, and camn.

In fact, maybe I am the crazy one... @GIEFF (or anyone).. what do you think about this?

Yes, I think his Mastin vote qualifies as what he calls an "OMGUS" vote, but what really is a vote without much analysis before it. I think it is scummy to be the 4th vote on a wagon without giving any reasoning, especially if nobody else has given much, either.

What I don't get is why you are so focused on a single vote from page 4 that has no reasoning when there are so many OTHER votes without any reasoning. To me, it looks like you are focused on Benmage because he was so rude to you, which is understandable.

[GIEFF]

That's one of the scummiest things I've seen this game. It's allowing you to brush people with the "scummy lurker" label when they're not actually lurking.

Takeme, for example. I rank 10th of 15 on your list, but I'd argue I'm contributing more than at least half the people above me. This is because having a higher number of posts just means you spam the thread, and having thousands of characters per day is more likely than not hurting the Town.

Relax there, champ. Nobody is calling you a lurker. And nobody is suggesting Mastin is NOT lurking. And I agree that more words does not equal more pro-town. I think Cephrir and DDP are lurking and are contributing too lightly, and that's the main thing I wanted this table to show.

I didn't give reasons yet at the time because I was just starting out and wasn't looking to convince anyone yet.

OK, well since then you have blindly defended camn (although she has performed behvaior you claim is scummy), said you are happy with your vote for me (because you think I was being hypocritical when I was not), said my case is crap (when you did not understand it), but still haven't given any reasons. Time to take the training wheels off - give some reasons. They don't even have to be good ones. I'm tired of people voting me for no reason.

And I'm tired of Battle Mage ignoring my post 378.

[GIEFF]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/search.p ... hor=Mastin

7 posts and 36 hours since Mastin was taking a break to eat.

7/16, at 2:33 PM, Mastin said:

End page three.
This is fun, but I gotta eat lunch.

His next post was 4 minutes later.
And his next one was 3 minutes after that.
Then yet another post 18 minutes later.
Then, 20, 18, 4, and 2.

So that's 7 posts in about an hour. Mastin did NOT stop posting in this game because he had to eat, he stopped posting because he was posting in other games.

And then he made the same "eating" excuse after his last game, and although there were no posts elsewhere after this, I don't know why town-Mastin would feel the need to make excuses the last two times he's stopped posting.

It is unacceptable to catch up at a rate of 1 page every 2 days.

[GIEFF]

I think you misunderstood me, I was making the same point as you, that he's lurker-scum.

No, I was just reinforcing your point.

----

jammer, so you think I am scum because I put more pressure on people than you think they deserve? That is how I play. I put pressure on people to see if they crack, to see who defends them, to see how they and others react. I do not feel strongly about my case on you, and haven't since very early in the game. I feel very confident about my BM, camn, and Mastin cases, however, and I put pressure on them because I think they are likely to be scum.

You are right that I am posting too much - I have actually been trying to clamp down on it this game, and hopefully even though I write a lot, most of it isn't fluff (excepting the camn cur-fluffle).


---------

Thanks for the answer, BM. Many actions can either be motivated by scummy or towny reasons. I think your voting behavior matches well with a scummy motivation, so I presented a theory that would explain them.

I think we've done to death the fact that my vote on Mastin was hardly the most conclusive of the century. Do you think it would be more protown to be afraid to change my opinions, at risk of looking inconsistent?

FORGET that he hopped off that wagon.

Eh? My memory is hazy here. Please explain.

I'm referring to you forgetting that you unvoted me.

My vote wasnt going anywhere. Angry as i was about that, i wasnt stupid enough to think that i could get Alex lynched today, and so, i move on. Scummy as you might see it, Town-BM had little choice.

So why throw a giant wall-of-text back at alex just 3 minutes before you unvoted him and voted for me? I do not think alex would be a bad lynch, and if town-BM really found him scummy enough to say a serious wagon is required and to confirm his alex-vote, I don't think town-BM would give up so easily. This behavior fits in a lot better with scum-BM, trying to force a wagon on alex, but switching readily because he doesn't really think alex is scum.

Scum-BM is ALSO a better explanation for why you put so much fluff in your post 113 case on alex.

Simple. Gotta put my vote to good use, and nothing like a good old bandwagon.

Do you find me almost as scummy as alex? Or VP Baltar, who you are currently voting for? Right now, VP Baltar has 1 vote (yours), and likely an even LOWER chance of getting lynched today than alex does. How is your vote more useful on Baltar than it was on alex, who you claim to find scummy?


------

And BM, I am not in alex's "camp" at all. He did not invite me to this game, and I have never played with him before. I think his defending of Mastin was scummy, and I think his buddying to me is scummy.

[GIEFF]

Actually BM - could you please list the players you think are in alex's "fan club?"

[GIEFF]

STOP
THE
QUOTE
WAR
WALLS

[GIEFF]

The impression I'm getting of Gieff though is that he is looking to make a case stick on someone that isn't Mastin. I'm not really liking it.

Perhaps Gieff wants to summarize his case on Camn in short form so that it's easier for me to read as opposed to the pages of back and forth between them. I really don't see what all this fuss is about Camn being super scummy or what not, I'm just seeing a scummy Mastin lurking, and Gieff giving him exactly the king of distraction he needs at this point by trying to shift pressure somewhere else. First on Battlemage, a case you abandoned quite quickly, (And I just glanced that he called you town... and I don't really understand why.) and then on Camn.

There's also that case on Jammer that I called him out on that he quickly abandoned. Just making sure that his voting patterns aren't getting lost in the shuffle here.

THANK YOU for actually giving me a reason, something I can respond to.

• I abandoned the case on jammer because I became convinced that 4 scum is not possible for this game, which means jammer could NOT have slipped.
  
  
• I have not abandoned the case on Battle Mage. If you think I've abandoned the BM case, then you just aren't paying attention: 382, 388, 423, 434, 464, 529, 541, 554, and 562 are all posts in which I reference my case, ask BM to respond, or ask others to comment.
  
  
• I have not abandoned the case on camn either, but we are currently in "Detente," trying to avoid the multiple pages of back-and-forth, which everybody agrees are anti-town. I summarized my case on camn at the top of page 22 - please read it.
  
  
• I have not abandoned the case on Mastin either, but he is MIA, 20 pages behind, and I feel like BM and camn have acted more scummy since then.

If nobody agrees with my BM or camn cases (which seems likely, based on how many people have called it crap, or not even noticed it), I'll switch my vote back to Mastin. As I said before, I may be falling victim to just finding scummy things from people who have posted a lot, allowing those who aren't posting as often to slip through the cracks.

-----

I don't really understand why BM called me town, either, zach. Should I just call it a coincidence that the two players I find the most scummy and have spent the most effort trying to lynch BOTH think I am town, yet BOTH of whom previously voted me, BOTH times without real reason, and BOTH of whom think the other is obv-town? I think not.

[GIEFF]

Battle Mage - who is in the buddy brigade?

[GIEFF]

You're right, BM - you do say camn could be scum. I think I was remembering this quote:

especially considering how mutually supportive camn, Sens, and BM have been.

As far as i can see, the only connection between those 3 players, are they all rock. So why shouldnt they be mutually supportive? If there's one thing scum fear, it's united townies who trust each other.

Also, camn says she finds you and Sens town, and Sens says he finds you and camn town. I just figured this 3-way town-love-fest was completely mutual - my mistake.

[GIEFF]

the game would be so much easier if Alex was dead scum. lol

BM

Who is in alex's "Buddy Brigade?"

[GIEFF]

I don't think my cases are weak, jammer. If you do, that is fine, but please explain why. My case on you was weak, agreed. But that was page 2, and it's all I had to go on, and I didn't think it was weak at the time I made it.

----

Thanks for listing the Buddy Brigade, BattleMage. One of them was night-killed, one of them asked for replacement, one of them is still on page 4. DDD hasn't said much, and I don't remember camn defending alex. The existence of a shadowy underground Buddy Brigade is not enough reason for town-BM to think an alex lynch isn't viable.

[GIEFF]

KMD, I am shocked to see that your points about camn in the game you linked seem quite similar to my own.

1. Not as hard on lurkers.
2. Not as ridiculously pro-town.
3. Changing her mind rapidly on who she suspects.
4. Setting herself up to look protown.
5. "Lazy" votes that she doesn't come back to.
6. Suspecting people without really saying why.

Do you disagree that a large number of the points you used to catch camn-scum in that game apply to this game? Even if just 2 or 3 of them apply, shouldn't that be enough to move camn out of your "obvtown" list?


Also, I never said you voted for me because I was hypocritical. I said you were HAPPY with your vote for me because I was hypocritical.

I just wanted to be clear that your vote with me is without reason. So when people demanding reasoning from others IGNORE your vote, then THEY are the ones being inconsistent.

[GIEFF]

*lurkers-lately, she just isn't.
*not ridiculously protown- why?
*changing her mind rapidly- where?
*setting herself up-where?
*lazy votes-where?
*suspecting people without giving reasons-where?

Setting herself up to look good (i.e. pro-town) is exactly what my case at the top of page 22 is meant to demonstrate. I don't want to provoke camn or start more quote-wall wars by going into any more detail, but please read my posts about her as objectively as you can, and I think you will find a lot of these same points in them.

-gut read
-stretched Camn's promise not to kill me by twisting her words to say she wouldn't lynch me
-kept asking about Camn's OMGUS with no intention of changing his opinion or any expectations that she'd change her answer
-pushing points JUST to make sure people see them
-Calls out appeal to emotion where it isn't there
-hypocracy
-crap case in post 398
-misrepping me by saying I don't understand the case
-bad argument about quote pyramids

Many of these things I haven't done, the rest do not make me scummy, and

none

of them happened before you voted me, excepting your "gut-read" claim.

The quote pyramids thing was a joke, referencing my mistake last game in thinking you were scum because of them.

Although I have a town-read on Geiff.. I could EASILY be wrong (it has happened!). . and to mitigate that risk, he should probably die someday. Or convince me of his ability to make the right decisions. (Which wouldn't be that hard, btw.)

If you truly think my case on you is total crap, then it SHOULD be hard for me to convince you that I'm not a poor player as town. I've spent pages arguing it, and I believe you are the scummiest player in the game. If you think I believe this for garbage reasons, would unvoting you after all of that really make you think I was a better player?

This reads to me like a threat to stop voting you - am I reading it wrong?

[GIEFF]

It has for a big part to do with pushing people hard with little things. And act like they are obv-scum becouse something unimportant. Like pressing Camn with the "I don't kill you KMD" slip. Little things that you didn't even put in your cases, who represent your big point.

OK. Don't you think Battle Mage did the same thing in Post 113, to an even greater extent? It looks to me like you are focusing on me mostly because YOU were the first target of my hard-pushing with "little things," even though this was way back on page 2. Pushing hard is my playstyle.

You've done everything in my case. If you feel otherwise, say so. I'll show you where it was.

I do feel otherwise, but saying exactly why now would needlessly clutter the thread, as you and I would have to go back-and-forth line-by-line, quote-war-wall style, and something tells me you would not allow yourself to agree with me anyway. You have been less-than-objective when it comes to your analysis of me this game.

If I need to respond to them to defend myself, I will.

-----

Kmd, stop defending camn.

camn and Benmage, stop cluttering the thread. Benmage is just arguing similar points I was. The whole point of the "truce" was to stop the pages of back-and-forth, but now you two are just continuing it.

[GIEFF]

What other situations could explain 12-14ish townies, and 1-3ish scum, pretty much ignoring your case on me?

They are not "pretty much ignoring" my case on you.(PLEASE READ IT CAREFULY IF YOU HAVE NOT DONE SO YET)

To summarize the way people think about it:

• Sens, Kmd, camn, and jammer think my case is crap.
  
• VP Baltar, Battle Mage, and DDD agree with at least some of my points (although DDD thinks they are minor).
  
• alex and Benmage agree with more of my points.
  
• Cephrir, blackcatcontract, Mastin, Spyrex, and zach have not acknowledged reading my case on page 22.

It's far too soon to say that everyone is ignoring it, considering that 4 people (5 if you include DDD) agree with it at least somewhat, and the 3 people who are against it completely (jammer, Sens, and KMD), already thought I was scum when I made it, and so are not being as objective as they could be. And 5 people haven't even read it yet.


Just because those against it are being vociferous does NOT mean they are the majority, camn.

--------------

-Does GIEFF thinks that KMD's sample game with 2 scum adds to his case on Camn?

No, but I think that his sample game with camn should make him more suspicious of camn, and less willing to defend her.

GIEFF: I don't want to meta... How many games have you played with Camn?

Just one. Open 108. We were scumbuddies.

[GIEFF]

@Spyrex.

That is not scumhunting. That is making a claim without much backing (scum is split between vomiters and non-vomiters), and then advocating lynching based on that alone. That is akin to what Mastin did early in the game, BEFORE we had 25 pages of accusations and votes to analyze. Mastin made a claim without much backing (people in games with has are more likely to be scum), made a list, and then tried to lynch people based on it.

I find making excuses like this scummy. As I said about Mastin (which he has not even read yet):

Similarly, just voting for a player who has been in a lot of games with hascow is a neat way to avoid any more substantial scumhunting. Making up a formula (more games with hascow = scummy), and apply it unthinkingly is a lot easier method for scum to "scumhunt" than actually trying to look at possible scum and town motivations, while also remaining consistent.

As I asked you before, Spyrex, and which you did not answer:

Spy, do you have any suspicions of anybody based on something besides what you call "spew"? Have you read my case of BM in post 378, or my case on camn at the top of this page?

[GIEFF]

1.) I have not gotten the "I AM SOO TOWN GUYS" feel from camn at all.
--- If this is a crux, how does Mastin measure up?

Mastin is guilty of the same thing.

As for who my suspect is I'm pretty sure a vote should make that really clear. The fact you keep just swishing by this is just confirming my theory that is spelled out more than once that one of you (probably you) is being a vomit-waterfall that Ceph is hiding in.

I don't have a problem with wanting to lynch people for lack of contribution (especially when it's just been 4 posts), and so I didn't attack you on those grounds. I am not "swishing by it." I see where your vote is.

My problem is with your claim that the people who are spewing (which is subjective) is scum. You have no evidence that is NOT based on this.

But you have no problem at all using other evidence to REMOVE people from your list. You somehow don't think that either Battle Mage or Mastin are capable of faking concern for the town. Scum do that all the time. Battle Mage's trap was null, and any town-points Mastin may have gained by trying to kick-start the game were lost (and then some) with how often he tried to call attention to that fact. Mastin is the ONLY person who both spews AND lurks, yet you decide to just write him off. I don't buy it.


And you don't include camn or KMD on that list, just because you subjectively claim they don't make your eyes bleed, when they're just as guilty of quote-warring and walling as most (with the exception of alex).


I call BS. If you want to lynch people who you think are purposefully creating spew to confuse the town, that's one thing, although I still think that would be ticky-tack. But you've gone even farther by haphazardly removing people from that list. You aren't even applying your own "formula" objectively.

[GIEFF]

I'm tempted to unvote camn, as she just nailed a mafia with her vote for camn. But I won't, just in case camn is right about camn being mafia (I see no reason not to trust her).

[GIEFF]

What bothers you more Gieff, players who engage you and respond to your cases, or players that don't?

Players that don't, by far. I would rather people say my case is crap and garbage than completely ignore it, both for my own sanity and for the best possible game. If everybody had read and responded to my camn-case on page 22, I wouldn't have had to spend so long waiting to see if it was going to gain any traction. Although the 24-page pages does make it harder for people to catch up, and that is partly my fault. I'm trying.

------

I love you guys - thanks for the camn-wagon.


Sens saying "Anybody who doesn't vote for camn is confirmed town to me" isn't much different than alex's nutsocaps-defense of Mastin. It's worse, in fact - not only is it a strong defense, but it's a strong defense with a carrot attached. Just like camn's carrot she dangled earlier about how I would no longer be a good policy-lynch if I can convince her that I'm not an idiot (which would probably involve unvoting her). Does anybody else want to offer me anything if I unvote camn? Maybe a toaster?

I think Sens would agree that the best strategy is to hurry up and lynch her - how else are we going to confirm 6 townies all at once?


And Zach, it is not my intention to take attention off of the Mastin case. I don't feel he is the scummiest player. Mastin is taking the attention off himself by not participating. camn has done what Mastin has done (besides lurking), as well as a whole lot more.

-----
@jammer:

Town games: Mini 738 (Sens was in this game), and Open 118 (Kmd was in this game).

Scum game: Open 108 (buddies with camn).

[GIEFF]

I forgot to mention:

Anybody on the camn-wagon will be viewed as cleared town by me the rest of the game, AND I will throw in two free compliments and an online coupon to Sizzler. That's not the sort of deal you want to pass up.

[GIEFF]

That depends; will Sens view everybody off the wagon as town even when you flip scum?

And if Sens REALLY believes that a camn-town-lynch means ALL scum are on the wagon, there is no way he would say it out loud. If it were true (and camn were town), saying it out loud completely ruins it, and ensure at least one scum will keep off the wagon. I would think that sacrificing one townie to confirm 6 townies would be a great deal. Why did you ruin this, Sens, if you really believe it?

[GIEFF]

You are simply pushing a mislynch, distracting people from actual hunting, and doing it in a clever way that will actually give you some sort of "defense" after my flip (if I am lynched, obv).

Sounds pretty scummy to me. Why do you think I'm town again?

Although I have a town-read on Geiff.. I could EASILY be wrong (it has happened!). . and to mitigate that risk, he should probably die someday. Or convince me of his ability to make the right decisions. (Which wouldn't be that hard, btw.)

What could I do (that isn't that hard) that would convince you of my ability to make the right decisions? Don't tell me you weren't referring to unvoting you... that would be ridiculous. You want to keep pressure on me, and keep me off of you. You tried the truce, but it's obvious that you did NOT do this to stop the quote-war walls (as you claimed), because you got right back into it with Benmage.

So, I am left to conclude that you asked for a truce to stop me pursuing your lynch.

But I never stopped voting for you. And because you already called me townie, you can't threaten me with a vote, or reward me by removing your vote. So you are forced to perform some mental gymnastics claiming your joking, random, "Let's lynch GIEFF because he's good scum" logic STILL applies, even though it's completely backwards now - "Let's lynch GIEFF because he's poor town." You do this JUST so you have something to threaten me with. And something to reward me with (taking away your policy-lynch on me if I will only "show you I can make the right decisions"). You even go so far as to show me that it wouldn't be that hard. Which means you WANT me to do it. And if my case is as crappy and scummy as you claim, it SHOULD be really hard for me to convince you I can make the right decisions, shouldn't it?

confirm vote: camn

moar camn votes

[GIEFF]

That it why I support my lynch.

No. You "support" your lynch because you tied your vote to BenMage's because you would rather prove a point to him than try to find scum. Much like you would rather look townie than try to find scum, but at least looking townie does have some benefit to the town.

[GIEFF]

Once I get on lunch, I will give your Camn case a look and try to get a post up letting you know what I think of it Gieff.

Thanks, Zach. I would appreciate it, especially with an open mind.

[GIEFF]

That is what I am telling you.
Thank you for the insult.
Feel free to ignore it now, and pretend I never said it.

There are scum lurking out there. They will lie about things that are as clear as day in order to look scummy. I will ALWAYS assume the most logical explanation, because if we all just blindly trusted any explanation someone gave, how would you ever find lying scum?

You can choose to either:

• Explain what you meant when you said it wouldn't be that hard for me to convince you I can make the right decisions
  
• Realize that there's nothing you can say that makes more sense than the assumption you were, and continue to play the suicide angle.
  • If you really did mean something besides unvoting you, and you really are town (both of which are doubtful), then please, for ALL of us - just explain what you meant. How could I convince you that I can make the right decision, and why would this be easy to do?
    
    
    Also, camn - another glaringly obvoius inconsistency: you first claim your vote for yourself was because you are following BenMage. But now you claim it's because you are suicidal. That is inconsistent. And the latter explanation is obviously false, as you only switched once Benmage did. If you think my obsession with you is unhealthy, your inconsistencies, lies, and question-dodging sure don't seem designed to cure me of it.

[GIEFF]

No, she shouldn't replace out. camn, I am not insulting you - I just don't believe you, because I think you're scum. And scum lie. There is no need to make anything personal, there is no need for your feelings to be hurt, and there is no need for you to give up. Just answer my simple question:

What did you mean when you said:

Although I have a town-read on Geiff.. I could EASILY be wrong (it has happened!). . and to mitigate that risk, he should probably die someday.

Or convince me of his ability to make the right decisions. (Which wouldn't be that hard, btw.)

It seems fairly obvious to me that you are talking about unvoting you (as that's the only decision of mine you have claimed is so crappy). You claim that I am wrong, but don't give a counter-explanation. Please give one now.

[GIEFF]

VP Baltar.

Please read my last few posts about camn and my case on page 22 before proclaiming in large bold font that camn is not a lynch-target. She is obv-scum.

[GIEFF]

Zach: Sensfan did try to de-rail ilt

I don't think VP Baltar is trying to de-rail it so much as "re-rail" a Mastin wagon.

-----

Thanks for the nice note, Baltar. I think Mastin is scummy and of absolutely no use if town, and if the camn-wagon fizzles, I will be right there with you on it. But I am VERY convinced camn is town, and she is a much better lynch than Mastin right now.


-----

Alex - the case on you is not crappy. You defended scummy play by Mastin, and in an inconsistent manner.

Exhibit A:

In the very same post, you said the following two quotes:

Long posts do not mean pro-town. I don't think Mastin has acted pro-town at all.

Maybe I'm prejudiced by my past experiences but

I STILL don't see how why he has acted anti-town.

Anyway. I'm gonna let him speak for himself. I'm just noting my disagreement with his waggon.

Maybe if you quit whinging and listen to the points against Mastin with an open mind, you might fare better in the game.

I don't understand you... You accuse me of buddying a TOWN mastin but then you coach me to open my mind?

anyway, it's good advice and I already started doing that.

GIEFF's post was pretty good.

But I'll have to do my own meta-research to get a real feeling.

So, you simultaneously don't see why my post demonstrates anti-town play by Mastin, yet also admit it is pretty good. But, of course,

not

good enough to convince you he is scum, not until you do your meta-research. Have you managed to do your own meta-research yet to get a real feeling?

Also note that both times, he strides the fence. He doesn't agree with me, BUT he could be prejudiced. He does think I made good points, BUT he has to do some meta-research before he can be sure.


You have also buddied the bakehouse out of me, which only started AFTER I attacked you. You've used the same phrases as me, agreed with me on just about every point I've made (including the reasons I find Mastin scummy, oddly enough, as shown above), and say "lol" a LOT more to my posts than to anyone else's.


Just thought it would help to hear it from someone with whom you always agree.

[GIEFF]

Haha yeah, I did mean camn is scum. My bad.

[GIEFF]

Freudian slip, how would a town-gieff call Camn town if he is suspecting her?
(j/k)

Why j/k? I usually find slips like that pretty meaningful. Although maybe I shouldn't anymore - I'm usually wrong about them.

[GIEFF]

Is there a person in the game besides alex who is NOT against a Mastin lynch?

If not, then in the interests of ending the day, I will throw my support and effort behind a Mastin lynch now. I agree that 30 pages is just too long for Day 1.


However, I would very much appreciate people looking at camn again with fresh eyes tomorrow. I am very confident she is scum, and I hope to do a better job convincing everybody of that fact tomorrow.

Unvote

Vote mastin

I think Mastin is a better lynch than alex. Alex-town has benefit to us, Mastin-town does NOT.

[GIEFF]

As I said, KMD.

Please try again with fresh eyes tomorrow. Don't start defending her like crazy until you read, digest, think, and decide for yourself.

[GIEFF]

KMD, I don't want to get dragged back into a camn-quote-war.

But are you really arguing that tying your vote to a player you find scummy and self-voting is PRO-TOWN?

[GIEFF]

Good lord I almost hope camn is the lynch so tomorrow you get the hang.

What is the SCUM BENEFIT for any of those actions? Putting yourself in the spotlight in a negative fashion in a mountainous game?

You're right, Spyrex - she is FAR too scummy to be scum. My mistake.


The scum benefit of those actions is you no longer have to pretend to find people suspicious, or pretend to scumhunt. camn-scum no longer has to worry about putting up a fake-front of fake-scumhunting, the lack of which is part of what I found scummy about her in the first place.

---

BM - I will give it more time if I think this town has any chance at all of lynching camn, or even you. I don't think they will though, so there is no point dragging it out even further, making it even harder for lurkers to catch up. Mastin is a fine lynch, one we can all agree on, and one that doesn't cost the town ANYTHING if he flips town.

[GIEFF]

Hey camn - would you prefer lynching Mastin or alex?

[GIEFF]

And Mastin is not the most useless player here.

I disagree. Mastin is worse than useless. Making super-long posts about what happened 25 pages ago is horribly anti-town.

[GIEFF]

Alex - if you vote for camn, I will unvote Mastin to vote camn.

[GIEFF]

Two quick questions, camn:

1. Would you rather lynch alex or Mastin?
   
   
2. What did you mean when you said it wouldn't be that hard for me to convince you of my ability to make the right decisions?
   

   Although I have a town-read on Geiff.. I could EASILY be wrong (it has happened!). . and to mitigate that risk, he should probably die someday. Or convince me of his ability to make the right decisions. (Which wouldn't be that hard, btw.)

[GIEFF]

As I've said elsewhere, I'm having access problems with MS.net at my home computer. In the games where I am pages behind, this will be a hindrance; I don't have time in 30 minutes to catch up. It should be fixed by tomorrow; I'll see what I can do then.

You will be dead by tomorrow.

[GIEFF]

He asks a question..I answer.. he says I am lying.
This is no way to debate.

camn, there are scum in this game, and they will lie in order to make themselves look like townies. So instead of just taking your word for it, I try to see if what you are saying makes sense.


I think my explanations are much more logical than the ones you provide for your actions. For example, you tell me your vote for me isn't OMGUS, yet admit to alex that it is. To me, that looks like you are lying, no matter what you may say about it afterwards. I am sorry if this frustrates you, but I would be more willing to believe what you say if it made more sense.

[GIEFF]

Don't beat yourself up, Spyrex, I'm sure that your preview-smack is the only mistake you've made in this thread.


And actually, Mastin DID mention his issue - no copy-and-paste.


But I'm sure it's just those two things you've been wrong about.

[GIEFF]

As for Battle Mage and Mastin: yea, I think they're town at this juncture. Further evidence could change it. I think they are both perfectly capable of faking concern but I do not think they have done so in this particular instance.

15 hours later:

After looking at Mastin's profile and the fact he has posted almost as much in other games as he has in this game total AND did not respond to the prod...

Unvote, Vote: Mastin

Good thing you were so wishy-washy 15 hours before your vote, or people would be liable to think that you're just voting whomever serves you best, instead of voting people whom you think are scum.

When can we expect your reversal on BattleMage?

[GIEFF]

I'll vote camn. Hell, I help get it done.

When she is town you vote yourself and just dont post anymore.
If I'm wrong I'll follow you around like a puppy dog.

OK, let's do this.

[GIEFF]

unvote

vote spyrex

[GIEFF]

unvote

vote mastin

go sens go

[GIEFF]

Today or nothing, alex.

[GIEFF]

Unless you vote camn.

[GIEFF]

Don't think that little piece of vote bartering you did with Alex has gone unnoticed by me...

Unvote Mastin

I suspect alex and camn are buddies. I asked them both questions about the other

Alex claims to find camn scummy, claims to want to save Mastin, yet refuses to vote her to do so. Hmm.

I also asked camn if she would prefer a Mastin or alex lynch, and she chose Mastin.

[GIEFF]

1. @Camn: I like you... and I DONT like you at the same time... How's that possible? Acting crazy helps your meta? Try to help town...

   Thanks, coach.
   
   

2. 
   But don't worry.. I will grow on you!

   I hope so. Smile.
   
   Ok.
   *Alexhans gives 1 credit to camn for ending the RVS (or attempting to in a WEIRD way Razz)

   "Camn is so townie, everybody!"
   
   

3. 
   

   UNVOTE

   
   I follow this alex-bm battle with interest.

   Camn.... I advise you to question anyone of us if you're interested instead of watching it from the side. Or question other people, or whatever... We need more input.
   
   Also... Why aren't you lurkerwaggoning Whooo!!! as you usually do IIRC?

   "I advise." Telling her to get more involved. Thanks, coach.
   
   

4. Camn... None of this is buddying... The only one close to buddying is the first one because you allow him to softclaim (even though you think is scummy?) but the other 2 are definetly not... you're trying to LYNCH them for god's sake!!! Shocked
   Ok... the rest of them... Some are, some are not... but I see your point... specially remembering 799...

   Wishy-washy. Pretends to be against camn, but comes back to agreeing with her - "I see your point." Also, this is way too many ellipses for my liking...
   
   
5. First part of Post 221. Tells her what she is doing that is scummy. Doesn't pressure her on it, just ask her what's up, and why she's acting that way. Thanks, coach.
   
   

6. That goes to you to camn... Don't say that BM is scummier or we are both townies or whatever without explaining.

   Thanks, coach.
   
   

7. I support ANY lurkerlynch.

   YET. Unlike you, you never jumped on lurkers like broomhead and don't vote for them now.

   "Do some damn scumhunting, camn! Something, anything!" Thanks, coach.
   

   
   Anyway, I AM writing off my lack of scumhunting to early-game weakness. I don't know who the scum are. I don't put much credence in RVS 'scumslips'.

   being lazy can be a scum excuse. Razz and I thought we had left the RVS a long time ago.

   "START PRETENDING TO FIND SCUM, CAMN!!!!"
   
   Thanks, coach.
   
   

8. The only time I can remember ever getting scum Day 1 is on lurkerlynches... This is my least favorite part of every game.

   woah... So you never succeeded in finding scum on day 1? odd... anyway... why aren't you voting a lurker then?

   "Camn! Why the hell are you still making no effort to catch scum! Just vote a lurker, it's an easy cover!"
   
   

9. UNVOTE
   vote: Benmage

   Oh wow, you are good at this game...what was i thinking.

   hey... I think it's "gut"... that's how she plays... Cool

   Defending camn.
   
   

10. Simply from a theoretical perspective.. do you think it is good to lay out why people strike you as TOWN?

    Well... reasons are important in this game... Scum has knowledge town doesn't so seeing through those reasons you can try to disentangle if it's a valid guess or a totally unsupported guess based on a scum game strategy wich, again, involves knowledge.

    Note how camn only asks her buddy alex from a theoretical perspective. Not from a perspective of trying to see if he is town or not.
    
    

11. Camn... quit acting like a child... if you're town... you're being most unhelpful with ridiculous questions...

    Thanks, coach.
    
    

12. Camn... if you wanna know so you can OMGUS me too. Yes, you're acting scummy. OMGUS, evasiveness, lack of scumhunting, odd reactions to questions, you're recoiling too much...

    Just like Mastin did to jammer. "You are acting scummy because of X, Y, and Z." No votes, no pressure, just a nudge in the right direction, coaching on how to appear less scummy.
    
    

13. lynch me then.

    Be careful with your wifom. It's anti-town if you're town and it's scummy.

    Thanks, coach.
    
    

14. KMD: I'm suspicious of BM, Camn, Benmage and SensFan mainly. For things they have done or attitudes they have.

    Safe-distancing is safe.
    
    

15. Camn... the truth is... that I WAS referring at your vote to GIEFF because you jumped at him for what you believed was a case against you. That's some kind of OMGUS.
    
    And, please, don't appeal to emotion calling for your own lynch. It's confusing.

    Thanks, coach.
    
    

16. Camn... Since when do you suspect mastin??? Are you voting him to prove Benmage wrong or something? you KEEP acting scummy. There's no way around it.

    Thanks, coach.
    
    

17. Anyway... 495... Good post Camn... We need that kind of posts. I'm working on a similar one but I still need to refresh some things and receive more input from some players.

    Making camn look good.
    
    

18. 
    Camn's really defensive of Mastin for no reason other than... well... no idea.

    Can you refresh me where did this happen? Camn is currently voting Mastin... what do you make out of that? Are you sure she was defending him?

    Defending camn.
    
    
    

19. my theres-scum-in-here list consists on
    SensFan, BM, Camn, Benmage

    Safe-distancing is safe. Let's throw her in a list so when she flips scum people wont' suspect me!
    
    
    

20. I know what you said when you said it... I just want to see what you say now after all your explanations regarding different topics

    to show you as town, no matter what.

    Then we can see if you're consistent or just trying to look townie out of every question.

    Am I misreading something? You just want to show her as town, no matter what?
    
    
21. Then there is 685, which BM mentioned, and which got me looking back at all of alex's interactions with camn in the first place.

I hope everybody agrees that this is a shocking amount of coaching, a shocking amount of defense, and a very lame pretense of finding camn scummy.

Alex had a chance to vote for a player he CLAIMS to find scummy, with a significant number of people behind her lynch, in order to stave off the lynch of another player he CLAIMS to find townie, but instead chooses to vote for Battle Mage, because apparently other people defending camn confuses him.


If I can't convince you guys to lynch camn today, can we please lynch alex instead?

Vote alex

[GIEFF]

GIEFF, you played with camn as scum, do you feel she needs that much coaching to play correctly?

She doesn't need coaching at all; she was a very good scum player.

And I think you should be asking alex that question, not me.



@ Benmage: It was my understanding that scum could only post during the QT during the night phase. Am I incorrect?

[GIEFF]

alex and camn, are you two allowed to post in the QT during the day, or only at night?

[GIEFF]

That's my point then. Perhaps you are simply forcing the square peg into the round hole.

Do you agree that alex was coaching camn?
Do you think a townie would coach anybody as much as alex has coached camn, regardless of camn's alignment?


I admit it was my suspicion of camn (and BM's accusation of coaching) that first got me to dig back and look at all this stuff, but it's pretty clear that when camn does something scummy, alex mentions it to either tell her to stop, or just warn her that her behavior is scummy. His quotes speak for themselves. He threw her on a couple scum-lists for appearances, but his refusal to wagon her to save Mastin lends credence to my theory that it's just distancing.


And as camn says, alex's excuse for not voting camn to save Mastin ("people defending her is WIFOM-y!") rings pretty hollow.

[GIEFF]

Also, I'm not certain that it's coincidence that alex left for over 24 hours, and only posted again half an hour after Mastin hit L-1. You wanted to demonstrate your opposition to a Mastin lynch one more time, eh?

[GIEFF]

Do you think any townie would defend Mastin so hard for no reason?

No.

Couple that with alex's opportune return to the thread right after L-1 to just tell us one more time that he's against a Mastin lynch (yet for some reason won't vote camn in order to REALLY stop a Mastin lynch) make me think alex is scum trying to gain town-points by PRETENDING to stop a Mastin-lynch.

Which woudl make Mastin town, would it not?

Which do you think would incriminate alex more at this point - Mastin-town or Mastin-scum?

[GIEFF]

OK, so just lynch alex for coaching a player that acts scummy instead of attacking her.

Or lynch him for "undeniably playing scummy," as a wise poster once said.

[GIEFF]

Check out camn's wishy-washy posts about alex. She finds him juuuuust scummy enough to distance if he flips scum, but of course not scummy enough to put any pressure on him.

He (

Battle Mage

) kept saying "bro".
He, I think, is/was being intentionally argumentative regarding NICKNAMES, of all things.

Understand, though.. I am not sure he is actually SCUMMY.. just scummiER than alex. Right now I am inclined to think town vs. town on them.

alexhans
I don't like his crazy-long posts. I don't know if I think they are scummy.. but I feel like they cover up the REAL alex.
Null read.

---------------

You were reading when made a big fuss about me not calling out the detractors of the Camn wagon right?

When alex made a big fuss, you mean? If so, can you link me to it?

[GIEFF]

Capt Condescending

You started the condescension, Spyrex - I was just continuing it. I will drop it if you do. I'm sorry I was snotty; I should not have been.

[GIEFF]

1.) Alex and Camn are scum together.
2.) Alex is scum regardless of camn's alignment.
3.) Alex is incriminated regardless of Mastin's alignment.
4.) Alex wants to "save" Mastin, but is unwilling to vote Camn.

I personally think that Alex and Camn are scum together.

However, a lot of people do not want to lynch camn, so I know I can't convince them of #1.

And so, I ask, from their perspective, even if camn WERE town, do they agree that Alex coaching camn is scummy? Trying to prove #2.


I do not think Mastin and alex are scum together. Read my posts more closely, Spyrex. Alex came back soon after Mastin hit L-1 to say "I am against this lynch." But he did not do anything to stop it. It looks to me like somebody wanting to gain town-points from being against someone he KNOWS will flip town.

-----

Camn, do you think alex's behavior towards you is coaching?

[GIEFF]

@ Benmage: It was my understanding that scum could only post during the QT during the night phase. Am I incorrect?

Oh, don't know these forums rules in an out. The only QT i had was mason, and it was day and night.

Really? No QT as scum in a newbie game?

Mind if I ask Flameaxe to verify that?

[GIEFF]

What would be alex's scum-motivation to do this?

If alex were town, he would think that scummy actions require pressure, not correcting.

If alex is scum and you are town, he would know you aren't scum, and scumhunting isn't really his concern, so he'd let it slide. Scum buddy to townies all the time, coaching would be for a similar reason.

If alex is scum and you are scum, the motivation for coaching is obvious.



If that is really alex's playstyle, I would like to see someone show me alex coaching any other player in this game anywhere close to as often as he's coached you.

[GIEFF]

No, Spyrex. I wanted alex to THINK I wanted Sens to quick-hammer Mastin. I knew sens would not hammer, because of this:

I'm not going to end discussion and quickhammer.
I meant that as in days dragging on and on without anyone having the balls to hammer.

I had my alex-camn buddying post ready a while ago, but before I posted it I wanted to see if alex would vote for camn to save Mastin, as another piece of evidence. Refusing to do so is much more telling if alex believes Mastin is about to be lynched.

[GIEFF]

Zach, I think I found what you were talking about, in Post 694

Why haven't you called SensFan or KMD on their Camn defenses? Or do CAPS shock you?

You know as well as I do that alex was trying to demonstrate inconsistent play on your part, as you attacked alex for defending Mastin, but did NOT attack Sens/KMD for defending camn. He was not asking you to attack them for defending her; he was trying to weaken your case on him.

[GIEFF]

At Benmage's request:

[mrow]Player[col]Posts / Day[col]1,000's of Chars / Day[col]GIEFF[col]11.5[col]7.3[col]alexhans[col]4[col]5.8[col]Battle Mage[col]8.3[col]3.1[col]camn[col]8.6[col]3.1[col]Benmage[col]7.1[col]2.3[col]Kmd4390[col]6.6[col]2[col]jammer[col]2.9[col]1.6[col]VP Baltar[col]4[col]1.4[col]Zachrulez[col]5.5[col]1.4[col]Mastin[col]1.6[col]1.3[col]SpyreX[col]1.9[col]1.1[col]SensFan[col]3.2[col]0.9[col]blackcatcontract[col]2.5[col]0.8[col]Kairyuu[col]1.2[col]0.5[col]Debonair Danny DiPietro[col]1.4[col]0.5[col]Cephrir[col]0.5[col]0.2[col][col][col][col]

camn

Vote: VP BALTHAR (Post 6)
unvote Vote :GIEFF (Post 65)
UNVOTE (Post 146)
Vote : Gieff (Post 150)
UNVOTE vote: Benmage (Post 305)
UNVOTE (Post 438)
VOTE: MASTIN (Post 454)
UNvote Vote Camn (Post 645)
MORE CAMN VOTES PLEASE!!!!!! (Post 682)
UNVOTE VOTE: MASTIN (Post 868)

Mastin

Mastin Votes: Mastin (Post 7)
Mastin Unvotes: Mastin, Mastin Votes: Battle Mage (Post 11)

blackcatcontract

vote: alexhans (Post 8)
vote: jammer (Post 23)

Debonair Danny DiPietro

Vote: Kairyuu (Post 10)
Unvote; Vote: Cephrir (Post 60)
Unvote; Vote: Mastin (Post 249)

alexhans

Vote broomhead (Post 13)
FoS Benmage (Post 95)
Vote SensFan (Post 278)
For all of you who don't like wall posts... Imagine this as several posts for several people.... You can JUST SKIM those who are not directed at you if you are so annoyed with my posting style. (Post 685)
Unvote, Vote Battle Mage (Post 875)

SpyreX

Unvote, Vote: Zachrules (Post 231)
Unvote, vote: Cephrir (Post 538)
Unvote, Vote Debonair Danny DiPietro (Post 651)
Unvote, Vote: Mastin (Post 739)
Unvote, Vote Camn (Post 793)
Unvote (Post 903)
Vote: GIEFF (Post 906)

jammer

Vote: SensFan (Post 22)
Vote: GIEFF (Post 57)
Unvote: GIEFF Vote: Cephrir (Post 205)
Unvote: Cephrir Vote: GIEFF (Post 426)
Mod: Prod Mastin. Unvote: Gieff Vote: Mastin (Post 711)
Unvote (Post 751)
Vote: Spyrex (Post 807)

GIEFF

Vote: jammer (Post 31)
unvote jammer (Post 56)
Vote Mastin (Post 70)
FOS alexhans (Post 128)
FoS camn (Post 339)
UnvoteVote: Battle Mage (Post 362)
unvotevote camnHOS BattleMage (Post 411)
confirm vote: camn (Post 676)
UnvoteVote mastin (Post 726)
unvotevote spyrex (Post 794)
unvotevote mastin (Post 871)
Unvote Mastin (Post 877)
Vote alex (Post 883)

Cephrir

Zachrulez

Vote: Gieff (Post 46)
Unvote:Vote: Mastin (Post 63)
FOS: Alexhans (Post 298)

SensFan

Vote" jammer (Post 47)
Vote: GIEFF (Post 209)
Unvote, Vote: Mastin (Post 270)
Unvote, Vote: GIEFF (Post 416)
Unvote: Vote Mastin (Post 473)
Unvote. (Post 474)

VP Baltar

Vote GIEFF (Post 113)
Unvote, Vote: Battle Mage (Post 144)
Unvote, Vote: Mastin (Post 237)
Unvote, Vote:alexhans (Post 524)
Unvote, Vote Mastin (Post 745)

Benmage

Vote Mastin (Post 83)
unvote (Post 194)
Vote Mastin (Post 230)
Vote Camn (Post 644)
vote Mastin (Post 866)

Battle Mage

Vote: Ben (Post 69)
Unvote, Vote: Mastin (Post 72)
Unvote, Vote: Alex Hans (Post 111)
Confirm Vote: Alex (Post 143)
Unvote, Vote: Gieff (Post 214)
Unvote, Vote: VP Baltar (Post 354)
Unvote, Vote: Camn (Post 659)
Unvote (Post 692)
Vote: Camn (Post 753)
Unvote, Vote: Jammer (Post 809)

Kmd4390

Vote Cephrir (Post 253)
Unvote, Vote GIEFF (Post 320)
Unvote, Vote Alexhans (Post 720)
Unvote, Vote Mastin (Post 806)

[GIEFF]

....

So it was all a trap?

Yep.

Post 717: Battle Mage notices alex coaching camn. I read back through alex's iso, and see ODDLES of camn-coaching. I know if I accuse him of it right away, he'll just deny it and never do it again. And so, the wild GIEFF decies to lay a cunning trap:

Post 749:

Hey camn - would you prefer lynching Mastin or alex?

Post 771:

Alex - if you vote for camn, I will unvote Mastin to vote camn.

Note the itty-bitty non-GIEFF-like posts, to be sure they are not missed.

Post 793:
I'm not getting any answers, and alex is MIA, so I unvote Mastin, and wait.... wait... and then, like some sort of super-bad-ass mafia-viper, I STRIKE:

Post 870:

unvote
vote mastin

And then li'l old alex-mouse decided to come back to the thread (Weird coincidence, right?), to say, in the very next post:

wow... 6 pages in 1 day...

I'll catch up tomorrow... and post trying to make it brief.

please, try not to hammer before I can post.

Oh OK, tomorrow. Alex obviously thinks Mastin is about to be lynched. He wants to be sure to get his town-points in, so claims he will post tomorrow (of course, thinking tomorrow he will be sitting in his comfy little quick-topic, deciding who to kill next, and laughing about all the wonderful town-points he's earned).

And when I gave him an opportunity to make this all go away, to save Mastin for another day (as he claims to want) by once more offering him to trade a camn-vote for a Mastin-unvote, he refuses, instead switching to Battle Mage. Which reveals that both his suspicion for camn AND his desire to avoid a Mastin lynch are fraudulent.

[GIEFF]

Zach, if I were trying to protect Mastin, would I risk putting him at L-1, even if just for 30 minutes?

If I were trying to protect Mastin, why would I give the first real reasons for his wagon? A Mastin lynch would be OK, but I think an alex-lynch would be better.



As many others have said before, the two most-agreed-upon lynch candidates are alex and Mastin. YOU YOURSELF find alex scummy. What's the big deal?

[GIEFF]

You are paranoid, Zach.

[GIEFF]

@ Benmage:

I am less OK with a Mastin lynch than I was recently. This is due to alex's grandstanding about being against a Mastin lynch, yet refusing to do anything about it.

As I said, it smells like a scum player trying to set himself up to look good after a mislynch.

alex-scum/mastin-town also fits in with his nutsocaps - why would a town player defend ANYBODY so strongly without reason? And a scum player wouldn't be so obvious about defending his buddy.

[GIEFF]

No, my evidence against alex is quite new.

And it doesn't just make alex scummy, it makes Mastin less likely to be scum. Scum don't try to win town-points by being against scum-lynches.

[GIEFF]

I believe I've explained why I left the Mastin wagon. I had wanted to switch to Battle Mage earlier, but I did not, because I liked the extra pressure on Mastin to make him come back and post. When he came back and started posting, I switched my vote to the player I found scummiest - Battle Mage.

Bullshit, it's well known that Alex is defending Mastin.

Is it well known that he is defending Mastin while secretly wanting him to be lynched? THAT is new information. As is his ridiculous coaching of camn.

[GIEFF]

Yes, I do realistically believe I can persuade a majority onto alex.

1. We aren't lynching Mastin today. If you wanna give an

   Alex

   wagon a try, i might be a little more sympathetic to your anti-town attitude regarding today

   Plus all BM's back-and-forth with alex early on.
   

2. Jesus, no. We should be lynching Mastin or

   alex

   , as that is where the majority of agreement by the group is at. I really think if we give the camn situation a night for everyone to relax and look back, things will make much more sense.

3. Who is the top 3 on your scumlist?

   Mastin is still number one and I don't understand why attention on him has continued to drop. It only validates his lurking behavior.
   ...
   I guess

   Alex

   is number two right now, I simply don't understand his shameless defense of Mastin from a town perspective. Furthermore, he continued and continues to wall-post even after people have requested that he knock it off.

4. I like to who SensFan and Jammer would of liked to see lynched today. Neither have voted for sometime.

   For me, Gieff, Mastin,

   Alex

   and possibly spyrex for that reflex vote on Camn.

5. People I'd lynch before Mastin:
   

   alexhans

   
   GIEFF
   blackcatcontract (replacing Kairyuu)

6. Alex

   or Mastin needs to be lynched today.

7. Dollars to donuts if we lynch (GIEFF,

   Alex

   , Benmage) in that order there will be a scum hit.

8. vote alex

Last I checked, 8 is all we need. Even without Cephrir, bcc, or Mastin contributing anything.

In fact, the only people AGAINST an alex lynch seem to be Benmage, Zach, and camn. All of whom seem to be VERY against it.

[GIEFF]

Attention KMD, Spyrex, Sens, Baltar, jammer, DDD, and Battle Mage - it takes only a little bit of effort to switch to an alex-wagon. Help me out.

Just because Zach, Benmage, and camn are flipping out (to varying degrees) about an alex lynch doesn't mean it is the wrong play.

[GIEFF]

That's a blatant lie so chill, because the rest of the post was actually very nice. That ending almost ruined everything for me. I don't ever really recall mentioning anything worth weight in regards to alex's allegiance.

It is not a lie at all. I read your iso for every interaction you've had with alex, and I know there's no way you will be voting for him today. Lots of agreeing, lots of backing him up, and very little aggression.

Zach is obviously against it.

You're losing your whole argument with this non-sense.

I won't convince you, anyway.

If you aren't against an alex lynch, why are you trying to tear down my argument?

[GIEFF]

Spryex, jammer, zach, sensfan, battle mage, and kmd have all voted you at one point or another this day Gieff. If I voted you, camn would too. That looks like a possible 8 votes there if someone were to push your lynching.

And now you breaks out the chainsaw. Or the threat of one, at least.

Yes, I can tell I was VERY wrong when I said it seemed like you were strongly against alex's lynch.

[GIEFF]

And this is just ONE measly vote.

I wonder how Benmage will react if he gets up to 4 or 5 votes?

[GIEFF]

Great. So vote him.

[GIEFF]

Benmage.: I said it

seems

like you are very against it. And I feel like I have since been vindicated based on your response. You claim not to care, yet you bring out the threat of lynching me. If you don't care, then fine - I don't need your vote anyway.

[GIEFF]

*BBBBBRRRRZZBBBZZBBBBBTTTTTTT*

[GIEFF]

Yes, that camn-alex buddy theory is looking more and more far-fetched by the minute.


Thank you for your rational response, Zach.


I eagerly await the responses of the 7 people who DO find alex scummy. Benmage and camn have short-sightedly ruined the Mastin-wagon, leaving you all free to switch over to the alex-wagon and end this day.

[GIEFF]

Well, I don't know if I'm "*badword* dense", but I do know that I'm not quite dense enough to try to prove I'm OK with somebody's lynch by chainsaw-voting the person who casts the first vote.

[GIEFF]

You're blaming them when you unvoted Mastin first? What the hell man?

Mastin was still a viable lynch before they unvoted, which was likely keeping a number of people off of the alex-wagon. I just think it's a little silly to free their votes up like that.


I will not be responding to the three of you for now, as I don't want my alex-case to be spammed back to a few pages ago.


I would like to see some people who DO think alex is scummy to read what I've written, make up their own minds, and hopefully switch over. We have enough votes to lynch him.

[GIEFF]

Zach, this post is from yesterday:

My top 3 right now would be:

Mastin
Alexhans
Gieff

It seems to me that your increased suspicion of me over the last day is based primarily on your suspicion I am trying to stop a Mastin-lynch - is this accurate?

And is the reason you are now against an Alex-lynch (even though you were for it yesterday) the fact that I am the one pushing it?

[GIEFF]

It just seems inconsistent be against the lynch of somebody in your top 3 scummiest players. So I was wondering how much of that was because I am the one pushing his wagon.

[GIEFF]

Baltar, you were actually voting for alex not too long ago, and switched to Mastin in the interest of ending the day. Why so much hesitation to vote alex now?

I am wondering if everyone on Alex's bandwagon is truly convinced he is more likely scum than Mastin or is simply bandwagoning him to avoid lynching Mastin.

I'm fine with either lynch. In fact, we seem to finally be making progress!!!!!

Unvote, Vote Mastin

[GIEFF]

I think camn is scum.

I think you are scum, too, alex, but so does half the town, and in the interest of ending this day, I am compromising and going after a more realistic target.


What I am doing is different than what BM did. I tried and tried and tried to convince people camn is scum, and trying anymore would just be wasting the town's time and my energy.

I spent the (only) 15 minutes skimming through your iso, alex. You don't buddy anybody else close to the same amount you buddy camn.

I found an example on Sens early on:

I vote for who I think is Scum. That's it, that's all.
If you have any doubts about my ability to read with my gut, ask GIEFF.

Ok... But one doesnt make a lynch. If you state some good reasons you will be able to convince people (specially me, I wont go for unreasoned votes)

But then Sens called you scummy, and you started thinking he was scummy, and after this ALL of your responses to him were aggressive, and none were coaching. You can claim to have a "coaching" meta. Whatever. You would NOT apply it to people you think are scum (as you didn't to either BM or Sens), yet camn is on your scumlist, and you coached her non-stop.

Why the inconsistency, if you find all three scummy?

[GIEFF]

Ohh... and GIEFF. My thoughts about not wanting to lynch Camn right now don't only rely on the weird circle of defense around her... they're also influenced by the facts that many of the scummy things she does may be her playstyle... That's what I needed to decide...

She was town in mini 799 (theme) and I totally thought I had her pegged as scum... luckyly for me... she died n1 and that prevented me from going after her.

If you are trying to decide if her anti-town playstyle is scummy or not, why, oh WHY would you coach her to CHANGE her anti-town playstyle?

Moar alex votes.

[GIEFF]

I think Zach is townie, and NOT alex's buddy.


Zach, I thought you were AGAINST an alex lynch, i.e. would actively try to disrupt it as Benmage and camn are doing. But are you saying that you are not against it, just less for it than a me- or Mastin-lynch?

[GIEFF]

READ THIS POST GIEFF: 1001

READ THIS POST ALEX: 1013

[GIEFF]

If you are trying to decide if her anti-town playstyle is scummy or not, why, oh WHY would you coach her to CHANGE her anti-town playstyle?

why do you think I would play like you?

If Zwets is anti town I won't lynch him for being anti town... I'll try to make him play pro-town... It's much harder to try to read through the anti-town rabble.

You mean play like me as in try to catch scum?

If somebody I know is town is acting anti-town, then of course it makes sense to coach them, and try to get them to be active.

BUT

You claim to think camn is SCUMMY, not a townie. Why would you coach a scummy player, when you claim the reason you aren't voting her is because you are trying to get a read on her playstyle?

Your "Gotta get a read on camn's meta first" excuse reeks just like your "Gotta look into Mastin's meta first" excuse. It's 30 pages later, and you haven't changed your mind on Mastin - forgive me for thinking you're being less than truthful about camn, too.


------


Baltar, nothing is degrading here. If you want to end the day, then vote for alex. The closer somebody is to lynch, the more tells you get out of him and out of scum. Let's get alex up to L-2, say, and see what he does, or what Benmage does.

In the name of science.

[GIEFF]

jammer: If you read clearly... I'm resigned to a mastin lynch and I even prefer it over a camn lynch. Yes, GIEFF, I do. Being such a controversial player at this point (and not helping at all with all his lurking) he is almost the correct lynch unless you're sure of someone else.

That someone else is Battle Mage. Who now has made a 180 flip to jump and protect mastin... He went for camn... and then used jammer as a trampoline to get.... me?

come on...

BS.

YESTERDAY, you came in at L-1 and said "Please don't hammer, guys" and voted for Battle Mage.

And now, magically, you are resigned to a Mastin lynch? Does this have anything to do with self-preservation?

[GIEFF]

Do I have any chance of opening your eyes before tomorrow about BM? because I'm almost willing to vote mastin provided that Yaw guarantees us a LONG night and a replacement for Cephir who is damaging this game greatly.

Just dont' send in your night-kill until right before the deadline.


Why is Cephrir hurting the game more than blackcatcontract/Kairyuu or Mastin?

[GIEFF]

It has degraded, as you stopped making logical sense about 20 pages ago. For instance, announcing that you want to pressure wagon somebody isn't good play. Food for thought.

It will only be poor play if it fails to get you to vote for alex. You don't want me to get all down on myself, do you, Baltar? My self-esteem needs some help, and you can provide it.
:cry:

[GIEFF]

I'm not claiming I need to meta camn... I don't have the will nor the time. I never metaed mastin either. You're the one who lives by and for mafia, it seems.

So next time, think of a better excuse than "I just need to meta them."

[GIEFF]

After over 1000 posts I can not believe that Mastin has not been lynched yet.

What does the inability to get support for his lynch say about his alignment? I mean... seriously?

It says that we have 2 other people not even playing the game, and a lot of other scummy behavior.

What would me flipping town tell you about Mastin's alignment?
What would Mastin flipping town tell you about my alignment?

I get the impression that Alex takes the coaching attitude as an aspect of his playing style, but I want to take a closer look and verify that.

Have you done this yet?

------

GIEFF, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but you are making it somewhat difficult for this game to move forward. Arriving at a concensus now would be a good thing for the town. There is a lot of information to be garnered from a Mastin lynch, and it will eliminate a lurker. There is not a downside to this.

You aren't being a jerk at all.

But there IS a downside. I agree that alex-town is more useful than Mastin-town, but alex-scum IMPLIES Mastin-town, and I think alex is likelier to be scum.

I'm really surprised at how much resistance there is to alex's lynch, considering how many people said "it's alex or mastin guys," and considering that 9 players put alex on their scum-list.

What does all this resistance say about alex's alignment, Zach?

[GIEFF]

I think the problem a lot of you are having with my playstyle is that you take people at their word.

Alex claims that he said one thing, but this is something he would claim as either town OR scum. it is not the town's job to say "No, but player X said this," it is the town's job to determine which players's actions are more likely to be motivated by being scum.



So alex can claim he meant don't hammer until I post, but based on his ridiculous defense of Mastin early on, his appearance in the thread RIGHT after Mastin hit L-1, and his refusal to vote for camn (a player he claims to find scummy) in order to GIVE himself that extra day he asked for, I feel that a scum-motivated explanation makes a lot more sense, no matter WHAT alex may claim. I can't count how many times people have accused me of "misrepping" somebody because what they claim they have done is different than what I am accusing them of doing. That's the whole point.

[GIEFF]

See, if I were camn, now alex would say "Hey GIEFF, I advise you to adjust your playstyle because people find it scummy."

Somehow, I think he's going to say something different, though.

[GIEFF]

I am waiting for the following players to weigh in on the alex thing (and I apologize it got so long, I tried to limit it, but failed):

Kmd, Spyrex, jammer, and DDD

:

If you agree with an alex lynch, please vote for him now. This will allow players like Sens and Baltar, who are mainly interested in ending the day and moving on, to switch to alex, and we really CAN end the day. If not, then please say you won't, so I know when to stop trying to get an alex lynch through.


(KMD and jammer, you both have expressed a willingness to switch to alex, but haven't done so yet. If you don't in your next post, I will assume this means you will NOT switch, in the interest of moving forward).

[GIEFF]

Mastin is at L-5 (voted by DDD, Baltar, and KMD). alex is at L-6 (voted by me and Battle Mage)

KMD: your vote is the difference between Mastin being closer to a lynch and alex. All you have to do is switch, and the world will come following after. The glory is yours for the taking, KMD. Can you taste it?

[GIEFF]

Cephrir's last on-site post was in this game, three days ago.
bcc's last on-site post was in this game, three days ago.

They are not avoiding this game, they are just simply not active on the site. You may have a while to wait, jammer.

[GIEFF]

You're sayin I'm lurking? Reaaly? Sweet.

Over-defensive much?

He was talking about bcc and Cephrir.

unvote

Vote Mastin

Boo to everyone who claimed to support an alex lynch but didn't follow through.

[GIEFF]

Oh wow, glad i lvied tonight.

The last one was actually VPB

Wow, what are the odds?

[GIEFF]

Benmage - why jammer, Sens, VP, and Kmd?

[GIEFF]

Benmage - why did you post so much about VP Baltar? Do you think that any of it is of benefit to the town?


bcc and Cephrir - where are you in your catch-up?

[GIEFF]

VP is town. How could there be distancing? How much of your willingness to lynch alex or jammer is based on their interactions with Baltar?

Where was your willingness to lynch alex yesterday?

[GIEFF]

Vote Benmage

[GIEFF]

Jammer does pose an interesting question though.

What is with the sudden loss of interest in Gieff as a lynch?

He was never interested in a GIEFF-lynch. It was a chainsaw-vote to defend alex.

[GIEFF]

So you believe Benmage and Alex are both scum then?

I think both are scummy, yes. They don't have to both be scum for Benmage's behavior to be scummy, though.


-----

Alex - what are your thoughts about Mastin, now that you know his alignment? What are your thoughts about Benmage flipping out yesterday because I said it seemed like he was flipping out?

-----

Everybody stop addressing Benmage for now. He is not being rational, and provoking him more will just devolve into a shouting match or a quicklynch, neither of which are helpful.

[GIEFF]

Jammer - the text-walls have very little to do with my vote.

[GIEFF]

Because the sheep in this game are blind.

Benmage: 4 people are voting you - me, Zach, jammer, and Sens. Which of those 4 are the scum, and which are the sheep bilndly following?

[GIEFF]

So you are saying I am the sheep, Benmage?

If you flip town, I will not be jumping straight to Zach, jammer, OR Sens. I don't think others will, either. You need to calm down, and play rationally. Don't you think a self-vote is a bit of an over-reaction to L-3?