Newbie 855 (Game over)

[Alduskkel]

/confirm

I'm basically an IC filling an SE slot just so you know.

Also, I'm concerned about rule 19 as it disallows things like "Bah, go Scum","Bah, go Cult", "Bah, go fish", and "Bah, bah black sheep".

[Alduskkel]

It's not a very good joke, Y. It doesn't make any sense for you to say that an IC in and SE slot is scum.

[Alduskkel]

EBWOP (Edit By Way Of Post):
and-->an

[Alduskkel]

No. You can only edit your posts in non-Mafia game forums (Mish Mash, Mafia/General Discussion etc.).

Hit the preview button before posting; that's best.

[Alduskkel]

Eh. You'll get used to it.

[Alduskkel]

Vote: Y

for giving advice that I already gave.

[Alduskkel]

By the way, my vote isn't random. I think Y is trying to get all the benefit of looking helpful without actually being helpful.

[Alduskkel]

Socrates, what do you think of the fact that Y already has 3 votes?

[Alduskkel]

Y: Still seems like a regurgitation of what I said. Also, no one has been at L-1 yet, I don't know where you got that from.

FYI I just looked for bolded votes for Y... sorry.

[Alduskkel]

CthulhuDreams: I honestly don't think L-2 is a big deal.

[Alduskkel]

Way to misrepresent. Go reread the post where I gave my reason.

[Alduskkel]

Y, give me a post where I said that I thought you were at L-1. Hint: You can't give me one. The confusion was over whether you were at L-2 or L-3.

[Alduskkel]

I don't get how YankCane can quote the correct post and still not get it.

@Socrates: Yes, what Y did was scummy.

VertFire: I don't expect Y to get lynched over what I'm saying. I'm trying to increase discussion, and to do that there needs to be something to talk about, which in this case is Y.

[Alduskkel]

Pretty weird that you called me Aldus the first time then called me Adus a bunch of times after that.[/offtopic]

Y: Why did you repeat what I said?

[Alduskkel]

foil, no one's voting for Y because of that.

[Alduskkel]

Just so you guys know, mafiascum is going to get taken down sometime soon, since mith is upgrading to phpBB3. It won't last very long. I'd recommend checking the relevant topic, it's a global announcement so it's at the top of all the subforums.

So don't fret if you can't access the site for a bit.

inb4 Y repeats this

[Alduskkel]

You know you would've.

[Alduskkel]

I don't see how you can call me scummy when your vote is based on a misrepresentation/misunderstanding of my case on Y.

[Alduskkel]

@Mod: What is the vote count and what is our deadline, if any?

[Alduskkel]

No. You said I voted Y for being helpful. I voted Y for seemingly being helpful without really being helpful. Big difference.

[Alduskkel]

Why is it scummy that I said it wasn't random?
Why is it scummy that I asked Socrates what he thought about it?

[Alduskkel]

A "weak" vote is not a random vote. I'd be lying if I called it one.

[Alduskkel]

I've admitted that it's weak but also that it's better than random. I don't see your point.

[Alduskkel]

I asked Socrates since he had just posted.

[Alduskkel]

I never accused Y of "providing advice but not following through."

[Alduskkel]

I PM'd hohum to remind him about the game.

[Alduskkel]

I feel that foilist's posts are often off the mark or arguing semantics, and not really contributing much to the conversation, perhaps as an attempt to fly under the radar as scum.

What makes you think that? I don't get that feeling from foilist.

[Alduskkel]

I PM'd hohum to remind him about the game.

Again.

[Alduskkel]

Unvote, Vote: VertFire

. Of all the players you are contributing the least to discussion (purple princess is excused because she can't be doing it as a strategy; she is getting replaced after all) and you're setting yourself up to pile onto YankCane, who probably just can't express himself that well.

In short, I think VertFire is lurker scum who's poised to bandwagon.

I'd like to see how he's going to follow up on 139 though.

[Alduskkel]

Zhero: You're accusing foilist and named him as your top suspect when answering my question

Not saying you're wrong, but where did Zhero say foilist was his top suspect?

[Alduskkel]

YC doesn't have a vote anymore either. Weirdly enough you note that in your post, then promptly ignore it.

[Alduskkel]

How so?
Is anyone else going to vote for YC151? If so, please refrain from hammering immediately.

[Alduskkel]

Why?

[Alduskkel]

Am I missing something, or were the foilist suspicions based on YankCane flipping scum, which he has yet to do?

[Alduskkel]

Unvote

. I guess VertFire wasn't lurking

as a strategy

.
I'm going to look around the thread a bit since my case is toast for scum tells.

[Alduskkel]

All YC has done all game is use screwy reasoning to attack me and lately, defending himself. I'm not seeing any real scum hunting.

Y just seems to be sitting on the sidelines I think. That bothers me.

Notably, YC got upset when I voted for Y, and Y has been staying off of YC's wagon. I'd suggest them as the scum pair right now.

Considering how close we are to the deadline, I'm comfortable hammering YC. What do people think of having YC claim? If he's a power role we need to know that we shouldn't lynch him. If he's scum and claims a power role then he could have a tough time keeping up the ruse.

[Alduskkel]

Y has been staying off of YC's wagon.

Not true. With the limited access I had in the last few weeks, he got as much attention as anybody else. I referred to him as 151.
I know I haven't been talking a lot, but most of what I've read this game seems irrelevant. Nothing really screams "scum" to me.

You haven't voted for him, that's staying off his wagon as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not going to claim.

As far as suspects, I have to go with CD, Alduskkel(for suggesting me and Y as scum when we could both be innocent) and foilist in that order

So you're suspecting me for suspecting you? How quaint.

@ Aldusskel: You said you were comfortable with a YC lynch, yet the fact that you advocated for a role-claim first seems like you actually aren't comfortable with the prospect. So which is it?

Just because I want a role claim doesn't mean I'm not comfortable with his lynch. If he's a power role I want to know so we don't waste a lynch on him. If he refuses to claim then I'd still be fine with lynching him. We can't let people off the hook on the presumption that they might be a power role.

Also, what do you think about the fact that YC doesn't want to role-claim?

It's poor play. I've been browsing other newbie games and I've been seeing an increase in lynched power roles, often because they don't claim.

@ Aldusskel: Would you mind explaining to me just what advice you gave that Y supposedly parroted?

Y parroted my advice (that I gave in post 18) in post 24.

[Alduskkel]

Unofficial Vote Count 1
YankCane151 (3) - foilist13, Socrates, Zhero
foilist13 (3) - CthulhuDreams, SaintKerrigan, Y
Not Voting (3) - Alduskkel, imkingdavid, YankCane151

Note: Order of votes is

alphabetical

, and does not reflect the chronological order in which they were cast.

Vote: YankCane151

. He basically claimed Vanilla, that's all I was waiting for. He's not contributing, and that's anti-Town.

I don't like CD's case on foilist, but I'm certainly not going to explain why before foilist defends him. The reason? I don't want to defend foilist and then watch him copy what I said.

[Alduskkel]

foilist, there's no reason for you to not respond to 238 while we wait for hohum.

[Alduskkel]

I think Zhero HAS been posting substance. What exactly is insubstantial about his posts?

[Alduskkel]

@Alduskkel - What are your thoughts on Zhero? do you find him scummy at all, or do you still think his posts were substantial?

I think that you could say his posts are a lot of things (such as infrequent) but he always has something to say. The misrepresentation given above is kind of scummy, but in my experience misrepresenting never seems to be a good scum tell. I couldn't say why.

[Alduskkel]

And if you guys want to make a case on me, fine, but don't just throw out half-suspicions.

[Alduskkel]

Perhaps you could voice some suspicions about another player, or even any content at all. It would be helpful to us to get a fresh read on you and confirm that you are town, wouldn't you say?

Truth be told I have a Town read on everyone in the game.

[Alduskkel]

Yeah. My gut says Y is scum though, I'll have to look into that.

[Alduskkel]

Prodded. I'm going to go through the thread and figure out specifically why I have a gut scum read on Y.

[Alduskkel]

I think I was bothered by Y's semi-lurking but he explains it in post 164.
Back to the drawing board...

[Alduskkel]

Jeez, I'm slipping (in my activity). This is the first time I've ever been voted for inactivity.

Have I done anything specifically scummy though, foilist?

I was actually planning on going over this game during the weekend, so I've been kind of waiting around for it.

[Alduskkel]

Um, how are my posts not content-filled?

[Alduskkel]

@ Aldusskel: What do you think about the current situation regarding Foilist?

Well I'm going read/skim through the game right now. I'll get back to you on this.

foilist: Short =/= no content.

[Alduskkel]

By the way, should I prod our mod?

[Alduskkel]

Can someone summarize the accusations against foilist?

[Alduskkel]

Vote: CthulhuDreams

. I'm not really confident, but I don't think you've answered Socrates' case against you very well. I mean, you thought that the wagon on YC was dwindling when he was still at L-1? Am I missing something here?

[Alduskkel]

@ Alduskkel: What do you think about what I said regarding Socrates in Post #322?

I'd prefer to hear from Socrates first about this, but it is a valid point from what I can see.

[Alduskkel]

@Y - How arrogant of scum would I have to be to narrow the list of possible suspects to three, myself being one of them, when I came within an inch of being lynched yesterday? Think about that. Does that sound like a town player scumhunting, or a scum player blatantly taking absurd risks?

From my point of view, you're scum, so your list is worth nothing. No real risk. Besides, you voicing it like that it WIFOM.
Furthermore, if you want to get picky, you excluded yourself from your list, so not only that your point is moot, but you're also misrepresenting the whole situation.
Presto - Another point to my "foilist is scum" list.

I'm not following this. Did you expect foilist to include himself in his possible scum list? And your certainty of foilist's scum status disturbs me.

[Alduskkel]

Unvote

.

I am really not liking how both foilist and CD are now on each others wagons. CD's vote is admittedly OMGUSy and "save-your-hide" sort of thing, while foilist's vote feels forced and opportunistic.

I think that foilist's accusation against CD (mistaking SK's gender) is pretty dumb, no offense.

@Alduskkel - I'd like to hear your thoughts on CthulhuDreams. You're still exceedingly scummy in my eyes, so some sort of content would be reassuring.

You already knew how I felt before you said this, why did you feel the need to ask?

On the other hand, I will admit that my posts are, while more frequent than, often less content filled than Socrates', which are almost always at least medium sized.

It also really bugs me that NO ONE is ignoring the fact that Y thinks foilist hasn't claimed, when he has. Considering all the fuss over "not reading the thread" being a scum tell, it makes me wondering who's missing it and who's deliberately ignoring it. I was expecting at least a passing comment, maybe just a "@Y: foilist already claimed vanilla."

[Alduskkel]

On the other hand, I will admit that my posts are, while more frequent than, often less content filled than Socrates', which are almost always at least medium sized.

This part of the post referencing one of the reasons why SK suspects foilist.

[Alduskkel]

Also, why exactly did you unvote? Do you no longer consider CthulhuDreams as scummy as before, or was it to avoid a hammer vote?

I'm just uncomfortable with current events. It's more that foilist is scummier (and thus competing with CD for my vote) than CD being less scummy.

Jesus Christ Alduskkel, did you even read the thread? I never voted for him because of the stupid SaintKerrigan gender thing. Thats like RVS bullshit. I voted him because I HoS'ed him and caled him scummy. He called me out and told me to back it up with a vote, so I obliged him.

Okay then: Why did you HoS him, and why did you bring up CD's misread of SK's gender as a scum tell (or were you referring to something else)?

And if you and CD are both Town, then voting for each other just makes scum happier. Vote to kill scum, not to save yourself.

[Alduskkel]

foilist's vote feels forced and opportunistic.

[Alduskkel]

I'm not a power role, I have nothing to claim.

This is not a claim. This is avoiding a claim. A townie calls himself "townie". That's what he gets on the role PM. What makes a player go around the actual claim? The fact he doesn't see himself as what he claims.

It's a pretty clear claim to me. Not a power role means he's saying he's vanilla since he's obviously not going to claim scum.

I am really not liking how both foilist and CD are now on each others wagons.

Why? I'm not sure I see the significance.

I explained why I'm not really happy with either of their votes.

Interesting point about foilist rushing the day, but it doesn't make sense because rushing the day would probably end up with him being lynched.

[Alduskkel]

Y, why (heh) didn't you respond to what I said just above?

Thats true. Even though i posted it, I hadn't really thought about it earlier.

You also didn't think (Or didn't mention) the posibility of both of you being scum, knowing that one of you is probably going down, so at least the other should be cleared.

Well, from foilist's supposed PoV that scenario is impossible. Why would he mention it?

[Alduskkel]

Y, why (heh) didn't you respond to what I said just above?

Respond to what?

My point about foilist's claim earlier.

[Alduskkel]

I believe that there is an importance to what people say, not only what they mean by it.

What's so significant about the wording of foilist's 2 claims?

[Alduskkel]

All the things you said about me can just as easily be shown for you trying to manipulate the town into thinking that I'm scum.

Can you follow up on this?

[Alduskkel]

I think Kerrigan investigated me or imkingdavid. Everyone else he expressed some sort of suspicion, but yet didn't gun after anyone hard enough to make me think he had a guilty investigation.

I have no way to prove that he investigated me and not IKD though. But he did defend me for me.

[Alduskkel]

Also with the caveat that Kerrigan may have decided to express suspicion on someone he had an Innocent result on, to make it seem like he wasn't a Cop.

Post 350 rules out CthulhuDreams as the person he investigated though. Just read it and you'll see what I mean.

[Alduskkel]

I didn't see that coming. Neither saint nor foilist. Hitting both the doc and the cop two nights in a row? Not good.

Mafia probably knew we had a cop, so they tried to gun him down. I'd expect that from some one with good skill.

So you think I'm scum? Just spit it out if that's what you're trying to say. I'm a terrible PR hunter though. I can give links.

[Alduskkel]

Sorry -- I've had a lot on my plate lately. I'll try to get to this game on the weekend, if that's okay.

[Alduskkel]

Now that foilist turned out town, Soc seems much less scum to me.

And your reasons for this are?

I'm really confused at the moment and I'm not sure who might be scum, but my top suspect is Ald. He seems to post very little and seems jumpy whenever some one says anything that might be considered as scum accusation against him.

I have posted more than you have. If you mean "quality," then I'd say that while I often post one-liners they're always pertinent to the game. And if you're talking about 428, 432, and 433 then frankly when you mentioned that you thought that someone with experience might be scum, you're directly implicating me since obviously you're not saying that you're scum, so you must mean that me (the SE) is. Who else here is particularly experienced, might I ask? If there isn't anyone else but me and Y, then it's pretty clear that you WERE accusing me in 428, Y.

[Alduskkel]

Oh, and a list of reads? Okay:

Y: I've been having a bad feeling about him all game, but I can't actually find anything really wrong in his posts.

Socrates: I like his posts, but he's also lurking.

Zhero: Like Socrates except I don't like his posts as much. They're less substantial IMO.

CthulhuDreams: I want to see what Socrates is going to say before I commit to a particular read.

[Alduskkel]

I'm waiting for Y's reply to 446 and Socrates.

Mod: Prod Socrates and Y

.

[Alduskkel]

I'm basically an IC filling an SE slot just so you know.

So you're the scum IC then? (Joke. All roles are distributed randomly)

It's not a very good joke, Y. It doesn't make any sense for you to say that an IC in and SE slot is scum.

A joke has no real sence to it. Why to be deffensive?

It's not really a scum tell to defend myself when
1. It was early in the game, talking a bit is better than nothing.
2. Joke or not, it's still an accusation that I'm scum.
3. I was hoping that you'd explain the joke, as I still do not 'get' it.

Zhero, you didn't follow up at all on your question to Y. So could you... follow up?

Same goes for CthulhuDreams.

[Alduskkel]

Well, I don't speak for CD, but I want to see what Socrates' case on CD is. Plus, Socrates IS posting in other games, so I have to wonder why he's avoiding this one. Awfully convenient.

[Alduskkel]

Good point of Socrates meta - Y! it was important to me as people had mentioned that they were waiting for socrates before they did anything, and its 9? 7? days till deadline.

What, I brought it up...

[Alduskkel]

And yes, the irony of the true lurker calling out another player on active lurking is not lost on me.

Yeah, I don't think you're in any position to accuse people of being scum for lurking.

[Alduskkel]

Socrates: You've raised CD (allegedly) not scum hunting as a scum tell. I have to ask though: Of all the other 3 players (Y, myself, Zhero) just who has been doing that much scum hunting themselves? The problem with this game, plain and simple, is that a lot of people (myself included) just sort of twiddle their thumbs waiting for other people.

Zhero: Wait, how did you go from this:

Y - pushed hard for a mislynch yesterday, and tunnel-visioned somewhat in the process. I have a spotty read on him, he's somewhat dodgy around questions. I'm interested in where he stands now.

"a spotty read" -- Doesn't sound like you're exactly sold on him being scum.

Y is still my prime suspect

Sounds a lot more committal to Y being scum. Care to explain the change, Zhero?

As for what my read of CD is, I'd prefer to see his 480. As it stands though, I'm much more bugged by Socrates' 12 day absence than whatever lurking CD has been doing.

[Alduskkel]

I mean you didn't really defend yourself in 480. I don't know how the sentence got screwed up like that.

I want you to defend yourself from Socrates' accusations.

[Alduskkel]

Yawn. Someone needs to take a stand.

Vote: Socrates

. 3 words: 12 day absence.

It's just inexcusable.

I think any attempt at making a case on CD based on lurking is just silly coming from you Socrates.

[Alduskkel]

Actually Quagmire, it's just that I stopped really caring about this game a while ago (no offense to you guys).

[Alduskkel]

Yawn. Everyone should cast a vote and be done with it. We've been dawdling around long enough.

If Socrates was Town he would have voted me by now. From his perspective, if I'm Town too then the Scum should have piled on their votes by now. I can apply the same logic to Quagmire. Therefore, either the scum team is Quagmire & Socrates, or the Scum are uncoordinated.

[Alduskkel]

I think the Day has ended. You guys sure used the extra time SO WELL. Eh, at least according to hohum's rules Socrates is dead meat. Hopefully he's scum.

[Alduskkel]

Here and not hammering either of you. Guess that makes me confirmed Town.

Zhero: Anything you'd like to point out about Y's play that makes him scum?
Quagmire: You really haven't made a case on Zhero at all. Care to make one? Why doesn't it make sense for me to bus Socrates?

[Alduskkel]

Well, I'm going to see about rereading interactions between Quagmire/Socrates and Zhero/Socrates later on. I'd prefer if you guys kept arguing though, rather than waiting for me.

[Alduskkel]

Well at this point I'd vote for Quagmire, having reread the interactions between Y and Socrates, as well as the interactions between Zhero and Socrates. Now, I could post a long PBPA of why I think this, but Quagmire has stated that he can't defend Y since he isn't Y. Therefore, if I post that only to see Quagmire brush it off I've wasted my time. So my question is this: should I post it?

This is not to say that Zhero is clean either... if it was so clear-cut I'd vote Quagmire in this post.

[Alduskkel]

Sorry for putting this off - I'll do it tomorrow, though.

[Alduskkel]

Post 58: Socrates defends Y, although he leaves himself some wiggle room to turn on him if needed:
[quote="Excerpt from Post 58, Socrates"]- Aldus, I know you said your vote was serious, but just how serious is it? Do you believe Y committed a real scumtell? [referring to my vote on Y for repeating what I said]

- What does everyone else feel about this?

To answer my own question I feel that being "helpful" is only a bad thing if it is used as a substitute to actual scumhunting, so I think it is a little too early to pursue such an angle. If Y keeps that up once the game starts in earnest, then we might have something.

Post 64: Same basic thing here going on with Socrates as before. Defends Y, leaves room to turn on him. This sort of behavior can go either way though -- it might be that Socrates is defending Y but wants to be able to bus him if needed; or, Socrates is buddying up to Y but wants to able to vote for him if he attracts suspicion.

Post 71: Zhero defends Y.

Post 253: SaintKerrigan (the Cop), after Night 1 votes for Zhero. Perhaps this is significant? I would have expected a claim if SK had a guilty on Zhero though. Less experienced players are more unpredictable though. SK later posts a full case. I have never been a Cop (unfortunately) so I don't know if it's hard to post a case on someone when you think they're scum through artificial (i.e., an investigation) means rather than natural (i.e., they say scummy things) means or if it's easier because you KNOW they're scum. Zhero addresses the case in 268. SK accepts the defense with 294.

Post 286: Zhero accuses Y of being opportunistic.

Post 295: Socrates says that Y's case on foilist "makes [him] go blah." It sounds like he isn't happy with Y's scumhunting. Doesn't seem to approve of the Zhero wagon.

Post 297: Y's big read list. Y expresses suspicion of Socrates.

Post 397: Y puts down Socrates on his suspect list. He really doesn't go anywhere with it though.

Post 410: Y lists Socrates as his next suspect... but notice the conditional, "assuming foilist turns out scum." That's a really good way of distancing from your partner but then having an excuse to not follow up. And lo and behold, skip to 442 and that's exactly what happens!

Post 423: Socrates suspects CD and Y (in that order). It's easy to imagine a Socrates/Y scum team bussing each other if the CD lynch plan doesn't go down so well.

Post 465: Zhero parrots me and agrees that Socrates absence in this game but presence in others looks bad. The only option, really, as there's no defending that, and any attempts to do so would have looked silly.

Post 470: Socrates says Y's comments about NKs "are giving me the Heebie jeebies." It's quite clear he's focused on CthulhuDreams though.

Posts 497 and 498. These are from Zhero and Socrates, respectively. Neither votes me, despite the fact if they had I would have been lynched instead of Socrates.
--------------------------------------------------
That's about it. I'd really like some comments on this, and remember, this post is only about links! Individual scum tells are not mentioned here.

[Alduskkel]

Here's the post 58 section fixed:

Post 58: Socrates defends Y, although he leaves himself some wiggle room to turn on him if needed:

- Aldus, I know you said your vote was serious, but just how serious is it? Do you believe Y committed a real scumtell? [referring to my vote on Y for repeating what I said]

- What does everyone else feel about this?

To answer my own question I feel that being "helpful" is only a bad thing if it is used as a substitute to actual scumhunting, so I think it is a little too early to pursue such an angle. If Y keeps that up once the game starts in earnest, then we might have something.

And by the way, I'm actually a bit more wary of Zhero now that I've looked at the game (again).

Remember, the deadline is in 10 days.

[Alduskkel]

I think the fact that I didn't throw out a vote at end of Day 3 is pretty telling, honestly.

And neither did Socrates.

And by the way, I'm actually a bit more wary of Zhero now that I've looked at the game (again).

How so?

Well, it'd be tough to "show" what I mean, but basically when I skimmed the first time you looked okay and when I skimmed the second time and posted the analysis you looked a bit worse for wear.

Also, I don't like how you rushed out with a vote. It seemed like you weren't as concerned with lylo as you should have been.

[Alduskkel]

Also, I don't like how you rushed out with a vote. It seemed like you weren't as concerned with lylo as you should have been.

I really did feel that your lynch on Soc cleared you as town. While I admit it was a possibility that you did that as a bus to use it to clear yourself for Day 4, it seemed like a bizarre and circuitous plan that just didn't fit with your playstyle at all. I was convinced enough that I couldn't see myself changing my mind on it, and decided that the almost nonexistent risk was worth the benefits of starting off Day 4 with a stronger move.

Well, usually townies exercise more caution. Although since you're new here you're less predictable.

Also, the vote count is incorrect, Mod.

Sorry!

I'm probably still going to vote for Quagmire at this point. You guys got anything else to say?

[Alduskkel]

Well, since Quagmire has pretty much stated twice now that he has nothing to add:

Vote: Quagmire

.

Zhero, if you're scum, nice game. Quagmire, if you're scum, don't feel bad, it was mostly Y's fault.

[Alduskkel]

Hm... inactivity kills would be the lesson here. A word of advice to Zhero and Socrates: in your next game (if you're Town) try to remember what you did as scum, and if other people do that then they might be scum too. Although without having been Town once before you might have a hard time comparing (unless you've played other games since this one as Town).

SaintKerrigan: Don't use the word "investigation" if you're a Cop. I'm guessing that's what got you killed. Also, what made you think Zhero was scum after Socrates died?

[Alduskkel]

Anyway, good game to everyone, and thanks to hohum and VRK for modding!