Open 189~Trouble@Warren State Mental Hosp (Over)

[VP Baltar]

/confirm

[VP Baltar]

It is pretty obvious all of the scum are in the scumchat posse, so we should just lynch them straight through. Easiest game ever.

[VP Baltar]

Xdaamno must die.

[VP Baltar]

Cool, we're in agreement then. I love when scum bus early.

there's plenty of room in my posse for everyone

scum claim?

[VP Baltar]

crywolf, do you feel you'll have any kind of bias toward the other scumchatters? You guys are a close-knit group.

[VP Baltar]

crywolf, do you feel you'll have any kind of bias toward the other scumchatters? You guys are a close-knit group.

Indeed we are a close, but i don't see why that would get in my way at all.

Not at all? I think people often give more leeway to players they are friendly with. I know that I have done it before and I certainly dont' have the relationship that the scumchatters do.

[VP Baltar]

crywolf, do you feel you'll have any kind of bias toward the other scumchatters? You guys are a close-knit group.

why did you single out wolf of all the clique?

Because that's who I felt like questioning. Do you see significance in it?

[VP Baltar]

Nah, its just noticeable that you asked a group question to only a specific player. Why not having dodge's opinion, for example?

I'm fickle like that I guess. I also don't think I've ever had any real sort of interaction with cayke...so what better way to start it off than with a question.

The only thing I am sad about is that Shanba couldn't join

Yer.


Where are the noobs? I'm starting to think it's time for MS and scumchat to join forces and lynch the non-posters.

[VP Baltar]

Vote: JDodge

Clearly Daamno's buddy.

I like you, man, but you gots to get got.

[VP Baltar]

No no no, see, ya wagon both scum on Day 1 and then watch them be forced to bus each other for survival. Sure, it's a bit sadistic, but it's more fun than huntin' muskrat by the pale moonlight.

[VP Baltar]

I hate it when you guys do this but I don't expect it to change.

Who is this referring to specifically and what exactly are they doing that you hate?

[VP Baltar]

I hate it when you guys do this but I don't expect it to change.

Who is this referring to specifically and what exactly are they doing that you hate?

The quicklynch thing.

Do you think people would actually quick lynch you because you're a scumchatter and not the first to confirm?

[VP Baltar]

Xdaamno, how would you compare your play here to that of Amnesiac Mafia?

Cat, tajo, Qoog, Otto, and anyone else who hasn't really commented, what do you think of the daamno wagon?

[VP Baltar]

Hi, Hyl! Nice to see you.

what do you think of the daamno wagon?

[VP Baltar]

I also noticed that you didn't give much opinion on the wagon, yet you're asking everyone to comment on it.

Oh, I have an opinion on it (which I'll get to here in a second), but I didn't know we're on a mandatory disclosure policy. Are we? No one asked my opinion, and I was gleaning much more information by not stating it.

Hey, baltar what do you think of the daamo wagon?

My opinion is probably closest to yours. While I do think some of his answers have been a bit off and overly self-aware, I'm uncertain if he's scum. He seems much too openly confessional for an early game scum.

When he and I played together in EK's Amnesiac Mafia he made some similar errors of putting his foot in his mouth and I greatly exploited those as scum to get an early mislynch on him (I'd post a link, but the thread was deleted as part of the game mechanics).

I like Hyl's post/vote, and not just because it's on our favorite perennial scum candidate.

you would.

I’m reading Vi town right now though, if it means anything.

Really? Why's that? I don't think many people could get confident reads by page 4.

@Dizzy-who are Xdaamno's scumbuddies?

[VP Baltar]

Unvote, Vote: HowardRoark

If you play with another player often enough, it sometimes becomes that easy

And how often have Qoog and Vi played together would you say?

[VP Baltar]

Well, you're scum, so I think you have an unfair advantage at the town reads game.

Also, if you have no idea how many games they have played together, then how can you make a value judgement that it'd be easy for her to have a read on Vi based on past experience?

[VP Baltar]

Well, my definition of confident is apparently different from yours. I would never call someone town on page 4. I think doing so means you are somewhat confident in your read...otherwise you wouldn't state it in thread.

Scum I would probably say early, probably, but even that is mostly for pressure and highly likely to change as more information comes in.

[VP Baltar]

VPB, what extra information did you get my withholding your opinion?

Well, considering I think it's a somewhat meh wagon, I was able to watch the way other players were interacting with it (which is why I was asking for others' opinions on it) and try to figure out who was legit with their attacks, who was just being silly and who was trying to sneak on an easy wagon.

[VP Baltar]

Oi, Xdaamno, answer my question in your next post or get my vote.

[VP Baltar]

I assure you daamno, I'm a lad cut from the most upstanding cloth. If I ever took your daughter on a date, I'd be sure to pull her chair out and everything.

In seriousness, I'll actually catch up in this thread today after some scrambled eggs and coffee.

[VP Baltar]

Vi's pushing it here. It sounds plausable that your mini-fallacies are because you're biased.

Why do you think she'd be biased? I don't see anything from her posts that suggest that, so please elaborate on this.

I can't remember much about how I played in that game. I'm probably thinking things through more, but the dominating feeling that stopped me playing mafia - people never being willing, for one reason or another, to accept my logic - is still here.

Actually, I think I've been giving you the benefit of the doubt a great deal. These kind of pity party posts don't make me want to continue, however.

I'm not going to manufacture comments for your benefit, because it's not nessecary at this stage. I'm going to post about what interests me and make a point to go out of my way to sometimes ask probing questions, as I have been doing.

I haven't seen probing questions from you at all, actually. I don't even know who your suspects are really other than a pretty obvious OMGUS on Vi.

Although it has already been addressed for the most part, do you mind clarifying exactly where I said I was confident that Vi was town, VPB?

As I already answered, because you said it. Why say you have a town read if you aren't very confident in it? What purpose does that serve?

I really dislike Howard's 96:

You should vote him. He's obv scum and apparently I'm the only one who sees it.

Does Dizzy always play like this?

I'd like to hear this from people with experience as well. She's intentionally playing to be unreadable and I don't like it.

(Happy B-day, btw, Dizzy!)

OK, I dislike playing with Xdaamno because of what's going on right now. Yes, he's definitely scummy, but he's almost always scummy acting.

citation needed.

Also, the collision of veterans and newer people makes this game slightly more difficult.

Why? I don't see the attacks falling along those lines at all actually.

How would stating your stance on the wagon earlier have compromised this information? Especially since a few other players had identical views to your own.

How would nay-saying a wagon help it build? And I don't control what other players do, but I'd say that if they had the same intentions as me (which I'm not sure of), then saying something early wasn't a bright move.

Why do you think I'm scum again? Just a bullet list is fine.

What are your thoughts on HowardRoark?

If I had to lynch someone other than VBP it would Izzy, only because I'm the least fond of her play-style.

Playstyle lynches = scum tactic.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but i smell someone that'll prob be replaced leaving us with nothing from her.

That's pretty much skitzer's MO, isn't it?

@JDodge: Check in, please--

+1

I want to talk about this. I agree that I play better on scumchat, but... this is just how I am here. Certainly moreso as town than as scum, if you read any of the games I've played in the last year or so.

links please.

VP, what's your opinion on this post? I think it's obvtown.

I don't think it's obvtown or a great post tbh. The Vi vote is pretty pointless (and if Otto really is an alt of someone with experience, then I'd expect a hell of a lot better than that). Asking for an explanation of your behaviour from players who know you is a slightly better effort. The last line of it is pretty nonsensical.

I also read hastily the last bits of the game to get an idea of who is suspect, and to be honest I don't see that great of a case on Xdammno.

So how are you actually making a value judgement on the case if you haven't even really read the thread? Why not wait until you're fully caught up before you comment?

---

Sorry for the long post. I'm caught up now. More commenting from people who aren't Vi and Xdaamno would be nice.

[VP Baltar]

Tajo: I have played at least 20-30 games on this site to date, and that's just this site.

So, are you intentionally playing aloof as part of your alt? If you don't care about revealing who you are, I'd be interested to know what your main account is.

[VP Baltar]

I bet if I revealed myself, I'd have two automatic votes on me, just for being me

I'll think about it, for now I'm just gonna play the game.

Don't feel obligated to. I appreciate a good alt. I think you stating you have 20-30 games on site is sufficient for my understanding.

Do you think there is any chance at all of scum trying to push a competing BW for the sake of confusion, or should we be analyzing the xdaamno BW?

Well, I think there are merits to both. If you feel the Xdaamno wagon is scum driven, then of course we should be analyzing there. However, if you think it's town driven, then I don't see it as completely unlikely that scum would stay off and mildly poke at an opposing wagon and garner town points if daamno flipped town.

Yes, the vote was partly because he was voting me - as I said, I wanted to see if he would abate. But that's certainly nothing to do with the literal definition of OMGUS - do you stand by this?

Depends if I believe your motive. Jury's out at the moment. This might help me decide though: do you think your wagon is scum or town driven? If the former, who do you think is most likely to be scum on it?

[VP Baltar]

What made you decide to try out the new playstyle, Izzy?

Also, is the Daamno meta you are pushing really as bad as you are making it out to be?

[VP Baltar]

My JDodge town read is based on the fact that I have seen nothing to this point

fixed

[VP Baltar]

I'll do it for you. No way an experienced scumhunter should be looking at playstyle and semantics as legitimate reasons for a lynch.

Unvote, Vote: Otto

[VP Baltar]

Come on over, Vi. Cayke just ducked out, so we may as well beat on her buddy who is here for now.

[VP Baltar]

It doesn't mean that my vote is just magically gonna go on him, I still don't think he's scum as of yet

, but I'm curious to why you felt the sudden need to attack me, becasue the above quote doesn't cut it as it isn't accurate.

^This highlights exactly why you are scum. You're essentially outlining how you plan to question daamno and gradually switch your vote to him after you were against it initially.

[VP Baltar]

Let me rephrase this in a way that may be more effective for this game:

Otto Ulbreicht quicklynch. Gogogogogogo

[VP Baltar]

I don't think you know who you're dealing with this game.

[VP Baltar]

lol, and the mystery of Otto is revealed.....I may have to reassess my views in light of this.

[VP Baltar]

Go study! I promise to delay your quicklynch until your exam is over.

[VP Baltar]

I was just wondering the same thing, Vi. Noticed after the ban thread got bumped on my watched topics.

[VP Baltar]

What else would I have to gossip over Sunday tea?

You'd be surprised at the weird things in my watched topics. Perhaps one day my name will be among the stars.

[VP Baltar]

I hope you get banned from signing up at all after being such a jackass. Thanks for ruining the game.

Unvote, Vote:HowardRoark

Still scum.

[VP Baltar]

I'm not referring to you being replaced.

[VP Baltar]

claiming out of spite is being a jerk and ruining the game. Please leave now. You are being replaced.

[VP Baltar]

Well, you're scum, so I think you have an unfair advantage at the town reads game.

Really? Why's that? I don't think many people could get confident reads by page 4.

...

Greatly disliking Baltar's reaction and I am disappointed in you all for not noticing this immediate policy 180.

What policy change is that? I still don't think town would have much for mentionable town reads by page 4 and Howard is still scum. Not seeing whatever you're getting at here.

VP wrote:
Playstyle lynches = scum tactic.


Bad play tactic, try again.

No, scum love to exploit playstyle lynches. Check any game that zwet or DGB or anyone with a different playstyle is in. When they are town, it is only a matter of time before scum come knocking for that easy mislynch.

Unvote, vote: VP Baltar

Step it up, buddy.

huh?

Or the explanation that actually makes sense is that he plans on getting his facts straight before jumping to conclusions.

You should really learn to read intent better.

I don't think you know who you're dealing with this game.

Jump jump jump jump jump JUMP TO CONCLUSIONS

EVERYBODY DO THE JUMP

I don't even understand what you are trying to say here exactly.


That was certainly a lot of snarky comments in lieu of scumhunting JD. GJ.

@Howard-Before JD explains exactly what policy switch he was looking at from me, I'd like you to explain it in your own words.

[VP Baltar]

An abridged history of HowardRoark for your consideration:

1-confirm, immediately plays noob card
2-jokes about being called on noob card playing
3-random vote
4-questions the xdaamno wagon, seemingly not understanding it
5-votes xdaamno, accuses Qoog and tajo of trying to derail wagon, says a player could have town reads if they play together enough
6-answers my question, continues to have a theory debate over town reads with me
7-continues theory debate
8-still going
9-asks cat for "thoughts on anyone"
10-@Dizzy-what's the slip?
11-explains why he finds certain xdaamno posts scummy, which is better, but i'm not seeing scum motivation in a great deal of what he is saying.

Xdaamno's 60: Playing as town does not require "running through several layers of town thought."
Xdaamno's 77: Meta defenses are weak.
Xdaamno's 78: I guess this one could go either way. I was reading this with the taste of the others still in my mouth.
ADD post 151: Waffling. How is a post obvtown, but not that strongly?

Also says JD town read is because he hasn't done anything "anti-town"yet

12-apparently agrees with some contradiction JD is claiming to have pointed out (still waiting for explanation here)


That's it folks! Scum coasting outside of the fray if I have ever seen it. Vote now.

[VP Baltar]

You did not specify initially town reads, and furthermore it can be inferred that if a read in one direction can be obtained solidly that a read in the other direction should be as inferrable at said point.

Actually, that's a very poor and baseless inference to make.

And it is more often a poor playstyle tactic. The number of times around the block that I have been compared to you makes my word more informed than yours.

Appeal to experience is a fallacy. Even noob-scum knows that playstyle mislynches are the easiest to execute. reference: Policy lynch thread currently in MD.

Either you're scum or playing terribly. Step it up. Prove me wrong.

Now, why would I ever say you're making snarky comments instead of scumhunting?

Then learn to think and/or read.

etc.

F-

SEE ME AFTER CLASS

etc.

What are your thoughts on HowardRoark btw?

[VP Baltar]

Appeal to experience is only a fallacy if experience has no bearing on the matter at hand.

Or if you're completely wrong. Which you are, btw.

[VP Baltar]

Also, JD, do you think I have contributed more, less, or an equal amount to the game than the following players:

HowardRoark?
Hyl?
Cat?
Cayke?
tajo?
Izzy?
Qooq?

[VP Baltar]

Ok, I'm trying to understand what you mean by "step it up" then. Could you clarify what you mean.

[VP Baltar]

less being vague would be good.

[VP Baltar]

Soooo....tajo has the idea. Where they hell are the rest of you?

[VP Baltar]

Looking at the vote record I could actually get behind the notion of the scum featuring hawt JDodgexHowie action.

This is actually my thought as well, but I was hoping to string them along for a bit longer. Ah well. Let's lynch them now.

[VP Baltar]

yes, forgetting about a cop claim.

[VP Baltar]

Also VP I suppose you are saying that I might be pretending to forget the cop claim as a gambit (unless you think scum is more likely to forget that fact than town,) which is similar to what tajo is talking about, but I do advocate the position that I basically suck at mafia. Two such gambits in a row would be a bit too creative, don't you think?

I never called you scum, nor did I say you were pulling a gambit. Now vote Howard.

[VP Baltar]

Also VP I suppose you are saying that I might be pretending to forget the cop claim as a gambit (unless you think scum is more likely to forget that fact than town,) which is similar to what tajo is talking about, but I do advocate the position that I basically suck at mafia. Two such gambits in a row would be a bit too creative, don't you think?

I never called you scum, nor did I say you were pulling a gambit. Now vote Howard.

Out of interest, what was your point with that post then? It otherwise just seems like you're trying to defame me.

(also I'd like to throw in a pre-empt for you saying 'Now vote Howard' at the end of your next post - I'll think about it, but I'm busy now.)

Of course I am. Your fame has always made me jealous and I'd like to bring you down a few notches.

Anyhow, voting Howard doesn't take thought. It's very zen. Just

be

the vote.

[VP Baltar]

Since we've actually decided to not play this game anymore. VOTE HOWARD ROARK. ffs, stop making me repeat myself.

[VP Baltar]

haha. While I fully expected that accusation to come sooner or later ("stop trying to lynch people! We're busy not posting anything."), Izzy was last person I expected it to come from. That was humorous.

[VP Baltar]

Finally getting a chance to post. will be posted later.

waiting

[VP Baltar]

I'm down for that. I've seen him posting elsewhere on the site and still has yet to reply to me (or anyone else). Let's throw him over a railing!

Unvote, Vote: JDodge

[VP Baltar]

I don't know if this will help, but ho! ho! ho!

[VP Baltar]

You should be dead before that happens.

[VP Baltar]

You may as well not even bother posting Prozac. You're going to be dead tonight anyhow and you're clearly not reading the game if you think a JD lynch is a bad thing.

[VP Baltar]

Now that I think it's been made so obvious, VP, I think you'd do better for the possible town players that don't realise and just come out and say you're just pressuring JD. If that's the case, of course.

No, I seriously to want JD dead. He's scum.

see above and generally jdodges play has been town compared to those mentioned above. Daamo case has been explored to death. Cayke, backseat play, aggressive, just above contentless, lurkering now. Cat, fence sitting, usual knee jerk reaction to whenever skitzer is playing, lurking as well. Howard, whats he done within the game? Hyl needs to post his own thoughts without needing to be prompted. Qooq needs to post.

All better than JDodge who has given cases and content which generally given off a town vibe and as far as I can see there is not much of a case against him.

lol. what from JD has been a "case" against anyone? He made some snotty remarks that were extremely vague, and when asked for clarification he failed to provide. His posts look more like busy work than actual scumhunting. Please point out what from his posts you think is good and makes you believe him to be town.

JDodge is probably one of the most town here, not only that in regards to lurking you have the town worse than him. The only time he has lurked within this game is recently and I have no problem with that provided he posts soon like he posted today but even then when it really only comes down to lurking it is an extremely poor lynch.

I think the primary mover here is the facade of what he actually has posted. Lurking isn't really the main point against him, though it doesn't help him in anyway.

HR lynch. I'm pushing this shit. His reaction to the wagon didn't make me feel any better (or worse, if you will.)

Why are you "pushing this shit" all of the sudden? Last I checked, you were just following my lead on it. You should follow straight over to the JDodge lynch.

[VP Baltar]

Just vote JDodge. No rereading required.

[VP Baltar]

Oh hai! Good to see people are at least looking at this thread. Feel free to respond to this while you're around:

see above and generally jdodges play has been town compared to those mentioned above. Daamo case has been explored to death. Cayke, backseat play, aggressive, just above contentless, lurkering now. Cat, fence sitting, usual knee jerk reaction to whenever skitzer is playing, lurking as well. Howard, whats he done within the game? Hyl needs to post his own thoughts without needing to be prompted. Qooq needs to post.

All better than JDodge who has given cases and content which generally given off a town vibe and as far as I can see there is not much of a case against him.

lol. what from JD has been a "case" against anyone? He made some snotty remarks that were extremely vague, and when asked for clarification he failed to provide. His posts look more like busy work than actual scumhunting. Please point out what from his posts you think is good and makes you believe him to be town.

[VP Baltar]

Are you drinking atm?

[VP Baltar]

As far as I'm concerned, about half of this game needs to be replaced since they haven't posted in about a week. I'm sure our

mod

could handle such a task.

[VP Baltar]

Prozac, could you at least link to the JD meta you are going off of. Vi has linked a scum meta for him w/ respect to similar play here. Providing a town game where he played like this would at least make his playstyle null.

What do you think of him not posting in the thread for so long now that he has been called out as scum?

[VP Baltar]

much obliged.

[VP Baltar]

Hey Howard, how's that Xdaamno vote treating you? Still happy with that wagon?

[VP Baltar]

I think I listed why I think JD is scum pretty succinctly here and here.

Basically, disappearing once he was called out for his lack of content is reason enough for me to lynch him and move this damn game forward.

[VP Baltar]

ALL OF HIS POSTS. Just click the iso tab.

It's not a case of being bored because he's posted plenty elsewhere on the site. Also, he had plenty of specific things to respond to after I replied to him. It's not like he wasn't being engaged and simply had no comment.

[VP Baltar]

His larger posts are especially devoid of actual content, imo.

[VP Baltar]

What do you think about JDodge? Why Hyl/replacement?

[VP Baltar]

What's scummy about it?

[VP Baltar]

Alright daamno, we need a lynch so I guess I can settle for ol' Howard the duck.

Unvote, Vote: HowardRoark

C'mon back, Vi. Let's just do something because this is simply ridiculous at this point.

[VP Baltar]

Yes please.

[VP Baltar]

This is basically T-ball here folks. Someone knock this one out of the park. Start the New Year off right.

[VP Baltar]

I almost just need a new day start to get back into this fully as I have no clue whats going on and every re-read is leaving me more clueless.

What is that going to change exactly? You seem to think there is no information in this thread and you don't want to lynch anyone....what is a new day going to change about your reads other than you'll know the alignments of a couple players?

This is garbage is getting ridiculous. You guys pop in here to avoid prods by pouting, and yet contribute nothing. Vi and I have done every bit of work in this thread, and yet when lynches are presented you guys say they are insufficient cases...well then it's time for you to get off your lazy asses and post something. If not, please zip it and vote.

[VP Baltar]

Hi, Sotty! Thank Christ someone who actually likes to play Mafia has showed up.

What was with the unvotes cayke and prozac?

[VP Baltar]

I appreciate the work you're doing for this game, VP. You're being a great asset to the town, intentionally or not.

What is irritating is that all of you are clearly reading the game, and still nothing.


Also,

What is that going to change exactly [Cayke]? You seem to think there is no information in this thread and you don't want to lynch anyone....what is a new day going to change about your reads other than you'll know the alignments of a couple players?

[VP Baltar]

Vi seems to always confuse me. Her early questioning of Xdaamno seemed a bit forced almost as if she was trying to justify the early joking instance that Xdaamno should be the early lynch. Some of Xdaamno's answers were confusing but I didn't find them scummy. Then she completely drops this angle and votes for Cayke. While I do think that Cayke is scummier than Xd I don't know why she derided to stop pushing him altogether pretty much out of the blue.

Does this seem out of the ordinary for Vi in your experience?

VPB, what's the point in discussing what actions one would take whether one wagon is driven by a specific faction, without determining whom you believe to have driven the wagon?

Pretty sure that was exactly what i was advocating in that post. Saber asked me if the daamno wagon should be analyzed for scum and I gave him my criteria for doing as such. Personally, I already did that on my own and I think Howard is a likely scum out of that wagon.

IMO, from page six I find her play as cocky town.

How does one determine between cocky town and cocky scum?

Is scumchat mafia the IRC mafia?

scumchat is the chat portal from the front page of MS.

Its not that there is no information, I have issues reading it. I hate making these games into a chore to read through and decipher every little movement.

I don't think that I've ever played a game of mafia where I didn't have to "decipher every little movement" in order to win. Unless of course you are simply relying on night actions to win the game, in which case I think you should analyze your own play a bit more.

I always feel a new day is a new spark that will keep the game moving, but with these replacements coming in, they are the "new spark" that will keep this thread going with new fresh eyes. Gives us that haven't been replaced new things to look at.

Ok, good to hear. So we can now expect you to be participating more actively like your last post?

[VP Baltar]

I'm not really fond of the Howard wagon at the moment. IIRC Howard was VP's second vote. Since then he voted Otto, and then shortly after he went back to Howard. But what I don't understand is why go back to a wagon alone.

Well, let's see, if he's one of the people I think most likely to be scum then why in the hell wouldn't I put my vote there? You're saying that voting someone should only happen if a wagon is already there for you to jump on?


Furthermore, what exactly bothers you about the howard wagon? How would you judge his play this game pro-town, anti-town, null or scummy?

[VP Baltar]

IMO, from page six I find her play as cocky town.

How does one determine between cocky town and cocky scum?

I would imagine cocky town do not have as much to lose as cocky scum.

That didn't answer my question at all. HOW are you determining whether it is coming from cocky town or cocky scum?

It's mostly just a gut. It feels like the group is moving wagon to wagon because they can, and just go until they find a claim they don't like. Granted the town working together is good, but i'd rather not lynch Howard quite so soon. I know he's already had a chance to scum-hunt and whatever, but i wouldn't mind giving him another. Although I think that Cat is a much better lynch.

I find (more or less) think that Howard's play would be considered a null. Yea he hasn't contributed much to the game at all other than defending himself or examining his wagon. His lower activity could be due to one of a few things which I won't speculate on because I am not him. I don't know why he's not participating as actively as others. I presume it as town, mostly off of gut.

This is a ridiculous amount of excuse making and "gut". I asked you to provide me with your personal issues with the Howard wagon and you've failed to do so at all. Why do you believe the things he's said are more likely to be coming from town?

[VP Baltar]

That didn't answer my question at all. HOW are you determining whether it is coming from cocky town or cocky scum?

I wouldn't imagine scum would be so confident.

Also, under 'imagine' it looks pretty much like Izzy forgot about it being an open set up with only two scum. It's a townie action in my book, and I doubt scum would have played it off like that.

I didn't. Beltar did.

Let's address this now since discussion is actually happening. How exactly is this a scumtell in your book?

[VP Baltar]

how much of your desire to lynch howard is you thinking he's scum, and how much is just wanting to lynch an apathetic non-contributor early?

I honestly believe he's scum, but if I ended up being wrong I wouldn't exactly be heartbroken.

I'm willing to come over and support the Cat wagon if we're actually going to lynch (because we've needed to just do it for about 5 pages now), but that's more of a consolation prize to me than anything.

The good news is that hito is at least playing the game and I don't think he should be lynched at this juncture, and that probably helps my decision making a great deal.

[VP Baltar]

I'm simply saying that since he replaced JDodge, who I would have gladly strung up for his dismal contributions and generally scummy behavior, hito has done enough that I wouldn't consider lynching him today.

[VP Baltar]

That didn't answer my question at all. HOW are you determining whether it is coming from cocky town or cocky scum?

I wouldn't imagine scum would be so confident.

Also, under 'imagine' it looks pretty much like Izzy forgot about it being an open set up with only two scum. It's a townie action in my book, and I doubt scum would have played it off like that.

I didn't. Beltar did.

Let's address this now since discussion is actually happening. How exactly is this a scumtell in your book?

Please point out where I definitively called it a scumtell.

You're voting me....I'm operating under the assumption that you think I'm scum. I believe you referred to it as a slip rather than a scumtell, but moving beyond semantics, feel free to explain how it makes me more likely to be scum.

[VP Baltar]

That didn't answer my question at all. HOW are you determining whether it is coming from cocky town or cocky scum?

I wouldn't imagine scum would be so confident.

Also, under 'imagine' it looks pretty much like Izzy forgot about it being an open set up with only two scum. It's a townie action in my book, and I doubt scum would have played it off like that.

I didn't. Beltar did.

Then I guess it's town points for VP and not Izzy.

No no no....that's why Izzy is claiming I'm scum. Remember! Still waiting for her explanation.

In other news, I'll give Cat until the end of today to either make a very good post or request replacement. If I don't see that, I'm moving my vote there so we can move this game forward.

[VP Baltar]

Works for me.

Unvote, Vote: Cat

[VP Baltar]

Just vote Cat then. This day needed to end about 5 pages ago. I would rather lynch Howard, but compromise is calling.

[VP Baltar]

Seeing as the I-35 corridor and western Iowa are what's known as 'the route one uses to get from Minnesota to Nebraska', I'm going to be here for now and I'll be disappearing more or less by surprise (later today? tomorrow?) for a day or so sometime soon here.

Enjoy your cornfield suicide, sucka.

[VP Baltar]

More importantly, alignment tells be damned, give me one reason not to lynch such a serial non-contributor.

In fairness, replacement would have been superior but I don't know if the mod is really on top of things enough to make that happen.

@daamno-I too think the HR lynch is just as viable and probably more likely to hit scum, but at some point you just have to move forward with the game. It's Day1 and if Cat is town she's not an asset that needs to hang around. If her wagon is scum driven, then her flip will confirm that. The point is that this discussion reached the point of diminishing returns some time ago and should be brought to a close for its own health. A fresh day and knowing some alignments will help move the actual scumhunting forward instead of just digging ones heels in.

[VP Baltar]

Someone hammer for Vishnu's sake!

[VP Baltar]

EBWOP: Actually a hold that...a claim would be nice.

[VP Baltar]

Vi, now that your newbie game is over, how would you compare Howard's play there to his play here?

I'm inclined to vote his direction since that is the lynch that should have happened yesterday. Also, Prozac's story about not submitting an investigation because he didn't know it was night is complete bullshit since he was definitely on the site during the (extended) night phase.

[VP Baltar]

Clearing people as town doesn't help scum win games.

So you are saying this game is not in your watched topics at all or that it was just near the bottom because no one was posting here and you didn't see it?

[VP Baltar]

Cayke, it's a new day, so let's hear this good contribution you are ready to give.

Howard, explain who your scum suspects are and why we shouldn't just lynch you straight away.

[VP Baltar]

Baltar, what game are you talking about?

I present you Howard-scum

[VP Baltar]

It is on my watched topics but it wasnt near the top. Also if my predecessor claimed cop as scum, he or I have a few options we can go down all of which to be useful to scum would involve claiming I have an innocent on scum/town or having a guilty on scum/town all of which would be more helpful that saying I got no result at all.

1) So you are suggesting that between January 5 and January 13 it never occured to you once that you were playing this game and should perhaps look at it?

2) The game is on your watched topics but in the 4 days the game was in night you didn't see the title of the thread, which indicated the game was in the night phase?

3) Do tell about all these other options you have. The way I see it, a scum claimed cop on day 1 has the following options: a) clear a town player as innocent, b) claim an innocent investigation on their only other scum buddy, thus risking their entire game on a gambit (mind you that a real cop could still be out there), c) claim a ridiculous no result because you forgot about the thread.

[VP Baltar]

Somehow I don't think claiming a false guilty or bussing your scum partner in a two scum setup is a viable strategy to actually win the game.

Also I already said I wasnt going to read the game until I was able to and when I look at my watched topics, I see Open 189 and then I look across at who was the last to post. I will probably see something like NIGHT 1 but not in a big huge title then N1 at the end. In fact I didnt even notice the D2 until you pointed it out to me.

So did you look at it at all during that time period, particularly since you were posting elsewhere on the site?

[VP Baltar]

Vote: HowardRoark

It'd be nice if other people in this game decided to show up today.

[VP Baltar]

@VP Baltar: Who do you think would be my scum buddy?

Not sure what the point of this question is, but my first guess would be one of the persons pushing the Cat wagon yesterday. Most likely BC from that group.

We also have a significant number of people sort of skating around the sidelines of the game, which worries me. Here you can read Izzy, Cayke, tajo and possibly Sotty (though she hasn't been in the game a long time).

[VP Baltar]

essentially.


Basically at this point if Vi is scum then it's game over because at this rate I would never be interested in her lynch.

Other than that, my only other semblance of a town read is daamno. The rest of you should really put a little effort in.

[VP Baltar]

I could be interested in a Izzy lynch, her latching on of VP is uber poor and she isn't even trying to look else where.

While I find it annoying and useless, I'm not sure if I take it as scummy or not. Do you think it's scummy from her?

I can agree with this to an extent. His questions are boring, bland, they don't have much content. What I mean by that is, they don't really make the questioned think too much, they don't pressure anyone hard. I guess i would call it, feign questioning?

That's pretty cool. What happened to your gut townread on Howard from yesterday?

Your biggest posts so far in the game were arguing with me not to lynch Howard, so what changed?

Also, what were you hoping to get out of "pressuring" Xdaamno? What is your read on him?

---

See you when you come back tajo.

---

This game is just being handed to the scum.

I do not like the speed this HR bandwagon is going even though I understand the points on them.

With stunning posts like this, I don't see why you think the town would lose this game.

[VP Baltar]

Hey, daamno, are Izzy and cayke frequenting scumchat recently? What do you make of them not really posting here?

Howard, what do you think of those two players? What do you make of BC's stance switch on you?

[VP Baltar]

It's not a towntell. Scum replace out all the time.

[VP Baltar]

This game is starting to feel like pulling teeth.

Needs more VP-Sotty QT action.

[VP Baltar]

Unvote, Vote: BloodCovenent

[VP Baltar]

Hey SlySly! Long time no see.

@BC-I'm implying that I could see you as HR's scumbuddy, not that he's town and you're scum.

Evidence is in this weak reasoning from changing a town read to a scum read:

My opinions changed. I felt that his question or weak scum-hunting was to try and appear town. He had to ask everyone (iirc) a question, and most of them were either similar or easy to use someone else answer. If it were me, i wouldn't have focused on question everyone, rather my top scum-picks.

The pressuring of Xdaamno was exactly that. there wasn't any real intention of a lynch. My read is neutral, leaning town.

You didn't answer my question. What were you hoping to get our of pressuring him? I realize there was no intention to lynch...that's what pressure voting is.

Also, why were you pressuring a town read?

[VP Baltar]

Did you finish reading the rest of the game Sly? I'd like to hear who some of your suspects beyond Xdaamno are and why.

[VP Baltar]

Izzy, what are your thoughts on BC?

Vi, do you think Izzy is more likely to be scum than BC or Howard?

Howard, why are you so inactive in this game when you have proven that you are capable of being an active player?

Sly, is your post 669 intended to be a reply to my preceeding question?

[VP Baltar]

I'm sorry we've offended you with our stupidity Prozac. It's hard to compete with stellar contributions such as:

Sorry JDodge, I dont think your scum.

vote jdodge

and

Please feel free to lynch me whenever.

and let's not forget

I don't think anyone would be too greatly affected if you replaced out, since you are apparently miserable playing with such a bunch of dolts.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, well ftr, I think lynching the claimed cop is a stupid idea and I don't even think Vi was proposing it seriously so much as she was giving a commentary on your prior post.

I think lynching BC or Howard is by far the superior route today. Actually,

mod, prod Howard please

. Both have been reasonably scummy and then proceeded to lurk after being called on said scumminess.

I think the biggest problem with this game is that a) people are largely making no attempt to generate content when they actually do post and b) the town is not acting in any sort of coordinated manner.

I compromised yesterday for the Cat lynch because everyone was being so damn stubborn. After a mislynch, I'd expect those people to be willing to reevaluate their positions or look for a better lead. Instead I see a largely splintered town that is putting pressure on almost no one, thus allowing scum to lurk their way to victory (and yes I do think the scum are likely among the lurkers in this game).

This reminds me greatly of Mafia of Order, and I don't think I have the time or the will to scream at people like that again just to lose the game. Hopefully we can all work together as a team and turn this thing around.

***********mod note***********

howard posted yesterday no need to prod

[VP Baltar]

See my sig for V/LA. Posting this in all my games.

[VP Baltar]

thank christ. Catching up here soon.

[VP Baltar]

I'll be catching up in this game tomorrow guys. Site crash limited my MS time tonight. Sorry for the brief delay.

[VP Baltar]

Well, that and wondering who (other than SlySly) would agree. Trap deactivated, etc.

Sorry. I didn't think we need to go down the road of the alleged cop not contributing again.

I'm kind of getting fence-sittish on HR tbh. I would actually like to lynch Izzy >.>

Why on Howard? Other than him simply not appearing in the thread, what would have swayed you away from finding him scummy?

Negative. If I were his scum-buddy i would have bussed the shit out of him yesturday and voted for him then. It was an honest changing of read on my part.

Um, no. Bussing your buddy on Day 1 in this setup would be an awful play since, you know, you'd have to survive 4 lynches or so (plus potential cop or doc) to win the game. I don't buy this argument at all as to the reasoning for your massive flip flop.

I am in a limited access situation right now. Hopefully I will be closing on my house next week, ending being a nomad couch crasher, thus increasing my availability

ok, cool.

Each time you post, include a vote or a confirm vote. (and why)

Ok,

Confirm Vote: BloodCovenant

for flip-flopping and wanting to go all Ice-T on Porochaz.

You and BC would be my top two picks from that list.

Anytime you want to explain your vote would be nice. Confirm voting me for a crappy reason isn't good enough.

Wait, you think Vi is scum? That's odd. Also, you seem a bit sensitive over one vote being on you.

There is a strong possibility that Vi is scum. Further elaboration on this will not happen without reviewing my notes, which I am unable to do at this moment in time.

I want to hear your explanation because I'm quite certain she's town given that she's actually trying to move the game forward. Right now, the stagnation in this game is a scum's paradise and I would see no reason to combat that if you were scum.

I think you know how I feel about full scum <--> town lists; so I'll pass.

Hey, look everyone, another reason to lynch HR as well!

Right now, nothing has changed my desire for a BC or HR lynch. Chaz is claimed cop. Vi is likely town in my eyes. Izzy was just replaced. Xd is a mild town read to me. Sotty recently came and I havent' developed my read yet (but I'm confident I will). Rosso is an idiot, but Cayke felt mildly townish. Jury is still out on SlySly for me. I actually think the pool for people who NEED to be lynched today is fairly limited.

[VP Baltar]

I'm interested to hear if anyone has any strong reasons to disagree with this:

Right now, nothing has changed my desire for a BC or HR lynch. Chaz is claimed cop. Vi is likely town in my eyes. Izzy was just replaced. Xd is a mild town read to me. Sotty recently came and I havent' developed my read yet (but I'm confident I will). Rosso is an idiot, but Cayke felt mildly townish. Jury is still out on SlySly for me. I actually think the pool for people who NEED to be lynched today is fairly limited.

I also think SlySly's Vi case is contrived in the extreme.

[VP Baltar]

'Glad to see there's a club for disrespecting RC though.

Not my first encounter. It gets old after awhile.

Agree with you on waiting for rewq though.

[VP Baltar]

I also think SlySly's Vi case is contrived in the extreme.

I am always extreme, I look for things I have seen scum do in a different manner than most. Gets me wrongly lynched often. IMO, Vi outed Izzy as scum partner with request for replacement. If another game wasn't still in progress I would give a perfect example. Her other request for replacement was not nearly as intense.

I don't mind you being extreme, since it'd be good to have someone getting more reactions in this game. Nor do I think it's necessarily bad that you're targetting Vi (even though I don't really believe she's scum at this time). I just feel you're reaching a great deal to make a case where there is none. Vi switching her vote to change the direction of the game and being annoyed by lurkers is well within her town meta. I don't think it's necessarily scummy of you to attack her for it if you've never played with her, but I think they aren't well grounded accusations when put into an overall context.

[VP Baltar]

ITT, Xdaamno, BC, HowardRoark, Porochaz, Rosso Carne and rewq all need to be prodded.

We could also just lynch BC. I'd also be up for the rewq lynch today if he doesn't provide something pretty damn substantial.

[VP Baltar]

First thing's first,

Unvote, Vote: rewq455

. Post or die.

I don't like posting scum <--> town lists because it gives scum a little bit more information about easier mislynches, not on-the-correct-trail, etc. (I figured you knew this because I said it in the Newbie game . . . guess you weren't paying as much attention as I thought.) VP Baltar, what exactly do you have against me not wanting to give this?

Yes, well this isn't a newbie game and this is a pretty newbie philosophy for the most part. I'm against you not giving it because you seem to be going out of your way to keep your alleged suspicions as close to your chest as possible. Now, this likely either means a) you honestly believe that stating your suspicions is going to give the scum magical powers to pull the wool over your eyes (oh my!) or b) you don't actually have any real suspicions because you're scum.

Considering how not present you've been as of late, I think a full list of reads with some indepth analysis is very much called for from you specifically.

I obviously disagree with VP Baltar on the Xdaamno read. VP Baltar . . . jury is still out on SlySly but you see his case on Vi as extremely contrived . . . what's keeping him from being a scummy read?

Because I've actually played with him before when he was town. Sometimes a bad case is just a bad case.

[VP Baltar]

[VP Baltar]

Vote: end game

Sorry Tubby. I have tried to save this game multiple times and get people talking, but every time I do the apathy just seems to grow larger. Pretty much everyone appears to view this game as a chore (for no real reason) and the replacement issue is going to continue as long as timely prods are not being dispersed.

[VP Baltar]

EBWOP: dispensed.

[VP Baltar]

Alright, do it. Let's just shake this up a bit and try to get some activity going. I'm sure we'll regret it tomorrow, but waiting for a replacement to come and post and have to get another read doens't sound very appetizing to me.

[VP Baltar]

As a former wrestler, I forgive you.


Everyone else, start lynching!

[VP Baltar]

Now once we get a replacement we can hear this claim.

[VP Baltar]

Remember: Nothing to do with sports, clubs, etc. is just "one or two nights a week".

I support continuing with a rewq lynch because that's what I suggested in the first place :v

You will need to replace Rosso Carne too though.

why replace me? Because i choose not to play like you?

Ok, you like bananas right? Well I like cliffs. Go get the banana I just tossed over the side...GO ON, GO GET IT!!!

racist

[VP Baltar]

@VP Baltar: Please explain to me how the scum <--> town lists are a Newbie philosophy and my understanding is incorrect.

Sure. You are being excessively worried that scum will gain some sort of beneficial information by your single list of who you think is scum and who you think is town. While I understand what you are saying, the scum are not going to gain any sort of noticable benefit from your list alone. If I was asking everyone to post a list, thus allowing the scum to compile the info and eliminate the overall "towniest" players, then you'd have an argument. As it is, however, I'm only asking for your list.

Any sort of very mild benefit the scum gain from your single list is negligable when you compare it to the massive benefit the rest of the town receives by being able to tell where you stand at in the game and thus have a better chance of getting a read on you. By not posting your list or opinions you are making yourself unreadable, and if you're town you're hurting our overall chances of winning.

The other options are c) I really don't have many strong reads or d) I play the way I play . . . like it or lump it.

c) It's 31 pages into this game, if you don't have any sort of reads to comment on at this point you're either scum or too lazy to ever be of any use to the town.

d) I'm not asking you to change your playstyle, I'm asking you to participate, be replaced (really hope it doesn't come to that) or be lynched. If your attitude is that the rest of the town just has to put up with you not having any scum suspects for the entire game, then I'm very happy to lynch you today and wait for the reqw replacement.

[VP Baltar]

Can you recap your case against Howard? In my read through, I had some suspicions on him and I would like to compare your case to my notes on him.

No problem. I'll get it up today.

[VP Baltar]

how much do you know about Rosso Carne?

I've played with him before, but I'll still encourage him to participate and not play like a mental patient.

Were you 100% okay with a vote+hammer on rewq?

For the most part, I don't care all that much. A claim would have been nice for the sake of order. I'm also still trying to hash out my issues with Howard, so it would have been useful to finish that today (and hopefully I still can if Howard comes around here a bit more) but I'm not going to cry over the lynch.

@Rosso - it was a joke. learn to take one.

[VP Baltar]

There is never any joke about calling anyone a racist. Please don't do this shit again or kindly remove yourself from the gene pool.

We can discuss your clearly well thought out stance on political correctness in post game, ITG.

[VP Baltar]

Vote: Howard Roark

Glad to see the ol' gut still works wonders. Something tells me I'm right about blood covenant too.

[VP Baltar]

^Howard scum buddy.

Also, just so you know SlySly, it doesn't really matter which of them we lynch first since we get 4 mislynches in this game. One of them is scum and I'm much more inclined to believe a claimed cop than someone who has acted scummy all game.

[VP Baltar]

I need to do some reading before I make any decisions. Not necessarily opposed to a Rosso wagon though.

[VP Baltar]

Probably Rosso or you. Sotty seemed fine with my Howard wagon for a long time. You raise a valid point about BC, but I would need to check and see if he's posting on the site at all.

[VP Baltar]

NM, I forgot that BC requested replacement last month. Can't be him unless he's pulling a massive gambit.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, looked at what I needed to in reviewing people's stances on Howard and voting.

Sotty town read confirmed. I don't think much can sway me from that now. Slysly is confirmed obv. I think my alignment should be as clear as possible by this point.

BC still makes me want to lynch him even though he's not here. Bleh.

Cayke and Howard almost never talk about one another, so Rosso's a good place to start with the lynching.

Vi's deflection from the Howard wagon obviously does her no favors, but I'm not sure if this is beyond her normal level of self-doubt.

Even though there is only one scum left today, there isn't quite enough leeway to say this is in the bag (ie, three lynches to finish off these folks). My gut says Rosso's the right choice today, but Vi is tricksy and could potentially win a lylo situation.

[VP Baltar]

If you have any meta tells on her, please tell me sometime <.<

You tell me yours and I'll tell you

mine

hers.

I want to hear what Sotty thinks of a Rosso lynch today.

[VP Baltar]

Wouldn't he have simply outted himself if he didn't play to his hammer meta? If you don't think it's Rosso, then who?

[VP Baltar]

Sotty, where are you?

[VP Baltar]

Vote: Rosso Carne

[VP Baltar]

It's not for zero reason.

Who do you think is scum and why?

[VP Baltar]

Someone Hammah.

[VP Baltar]

For realz!!!!

[VP Baltar]

lol, those are horrible reasons for voting Rosso, but I'm guessing that is game.

[VP Baltar]

lol, well Captain Hyper-Sensitivity, good to see you could join us on this mystery ship.

My point was that you voted him over pretty much every meta reason that is typical for Rosso regardless of alignment. He never contributes anything of substance to the game.

I voted him because a logical process of elimination says to me that either he or Vi is the last scum. I don't think it's Vi.

I'd like to hear your full thoughts on all of the living players at the moment since it'll probably take tubby a bit to put this game into night.

[VP Baltar]

It is a crap meta indeed.

Anyhow, you can't expect to just come in here and get a win without taking even a little bit of crap from me, now do you!

*waits for tubby to bring out the gold medals*

[VP Baltar]

I want to feel bad about lynching Rosso, but then I remembered we have two dead cops.


Vi, who's da scum?

[VP Baltar]

Reasoning with either of those reads?

[VP Baltar]

No problem. I was hoping today wasn't going to even be happing, so I can understand time to do some reading.

Sotty, any thoughts at this time? You were pretty quiet yesterday.

[VP Baltar]

^heh, forgot that I meant to ask that question once this game started again. Nice catch.

[VP Baltar]

I have completed my ISOs on Sotty/Qooq and Vi and though I did not take notes during my review...my sense (I know that is not a good reason for others to grasp) tells me she is town. Despite the fact she has been mafia and fooled me everytime [1] we have played.

Who is she? Sotty?

Still waiting on that response tubby.

I am not really sure i should answer this untill after endgame. I know its important but I feel its game breaking, please alow me sometime to consult other mods who are not in this game for final ruling thanks

[VP Baltar]

OK..finished ISO on VP. He bussed HR pretty hard from the beginning. The main thing that concerned me were comments VP made on more than one occassion concerning the fact that no scum would bus their partner the entire game in a two scum set up. Which makes me of course think he is scum bussing his partner the entire game.

Ok...so you're not going to be useful. Just vote who I tell you to when I let you know who the scum is. Unless, of course, the NK was randomized, in which case we'll speedlynch you and insta-win.


Guess I'm going to have to iso Sotty and Vi. sigh. I don't see why I should have to do heavy lifting in a setup with two cops and a doc.

Vi and Sotty, which of you is town so I don't have to do stuff?

[VP Baltar]

I really don't think it's game breaking and actually should be something included in an open setup, either via the rules or the roles. Opens mean full disclosure.

[VP Baltar]

fitz, is your NK randomized if you don't submit it?

[VP Baltar]

Why I oughta.....

One of these days, Alice. Straight to the moon.

[VP Baltar]

So anyway, what do people think the odds are that mafia kills would the only compulsive night actions?

[VP Baltar]

*would be the only...blah blah blah

[VP Baltar]

VP, what are you doing? Re-reading? Waiting for more votes/discussion/posts... What?

Mostly I want to hear what you guys have to say today. I realize there stands a possibility that I was bussing HR, but in a setup like this I think that is beyond idiotic. Therefore, as what I would consider as close to a confirmed town as possible at this point, I'm more interested in hearing arguments being put forth by you guys before we get into the real meat and potatoes and I start stamping my feet like a child. That way I can observe who I think is genuinely scumhunting and who I think is just trying to get a mislynch.

On an unrelated note, there is a possibility for a no lynch today. Thoughts from everyone?

[VP Baltar]

I'm not sure I buy a NK as compulsive. There is always the option of a no kill. So I'm saying slim.

Yeah, which gives fitz a free pass and narrows the pool.

Good one. But I'm VT.

lol, can't blame me for checking!

So because you bussed your partner so heavily from the start...that confirms you as town? That's great...I'll have to use that sometime. You obviously think that your bussing is more confirmation of you being town that BC's absence during N3 actions. That works out well for you.

Well, look at it from my perspective, I attacked Howard from VERY early in the game and never gave him breathing room for his repeatedly scummy non-answers to the points I was raising. The evidence is right there in the thread for anyone to look at. At no time was I giving him the typical scummy exits, nor was I letting his BS replies pass as acceptable (unlike, say, Vi). Now, of course there does stand the chance of this being a hard bus, but let me ask you how much motivation I would have as scum to try and lynch my only partner on Day 1 of a setup that could contain (and did) multiple doctors and cops? Apart from my own scum tendencies that I don't like to bus my partners unless I have to, the idea you are proposing is basically begging to lose the game. I hope you give me a bit more credit than that.

VP bussed HR from very early on..so he has to be town (or not)...though I did not see much reasoning provided for his intial HR. Need to go back again and see how that voting played out. I did not see VP providing as much content with his votes as Vi did.

Well, my initial vote was well within the early game and mostly meant as pressure to judge his reaction, so there wasn't a lot of reasoning behind it to start. However, as I continued to ask him questions throughout the game he was either massively lurking or giving very poor answers, imo. I was also repeatedly banging the drum for his lynch and his ignoring me entirely screamed scum to me. Had he been town in that situation, I would have expected at least a little bit of "what you talking 'bout willis?" from him.

Additionally, words =/= pro-town. I think looking at intent and sincerity in voting is much more important than who is posting the biggest walls.

*No scum were on the initial Xdaamno wagon until HowardRoark joined in 96. {Cayke, Vi, Izzy, JDodge, HR}
**The Xdaamno wagon was announced well in advance of the game beginning, so scum saw it coming and could plan around it.

*Except for you?
**I announced the Xdaamno wagon, so if you're calling me scum how did I plan around it? Unless of course you're suggesting I had mind conrol over the entirity of the early game and was able execute some weird master plan.

**Both HowardRoark and VP Baltar dodged the wagon, instead asking other people about it.

Again, I initiated the attacks. My purpose was precisely to see 1)Xdaamno's reaction and 2) the reaction's of others to the wagon. Once it quickly turned into a fail wagon of false pressure (mostly fueled by you), I felt no need to add further to it.

I fail to see how I "dodged" the wagon when I was questioning Xd in the early stages of it. Did you not see those posts (hint: later on in the post you say you did)?

**(107) VP Baltar explained that by staying off the wagon and questioning around he could pick up who was reacting scummily about it. But he never mentioned his results - who he determined was actually acting scummily in relation to the Xd wagon! Even more interesting, by this time HowardRoark had jumped onto the tail end of the Xdaamno wagon (L-2) with this reasoning:

Xdaamno's post 60, post 77 & post 78.

considering VP Baltar had just gotten done saying that the Xd wagon was unlikely to hit scum. Why wasn't that mentioned?

Since when is it mandatory for me to post my reads by page 4? How does that even make me scummy in your eyes? Also, I think it is funny that you say I had no reaction to Howard's crappy reasoning for voting Xd when I voted him IN THE VERY NEXT POST.

That was quite awhile ago, so I can't say for certain how much his Xd vote influenced my vote on him, but I can say with certainty that it would have at least been somewhat of a factor.

I want to take a side note here because I think it's crucial to point out that Howard felt the need to intervene in Post 96 when I questioned Qooq's town read on Vi. I thought it was strange at that time, but now that we have seen Howard flip scum it does kind of make sense for an inexperienced-scum to jump in like that if someone is cutting down town reads on his partner. I don't see any real reason for a townie to intervene like that, however.

*VP Baltar's question in 81 inviting the people who had not posted yet to talk about the Xdaamno wagon was functionally useless. (Think about it.)
*I'm not sure what the purpose of VP Baltar's questions to Xd on Page 3 was.

So because you don't know what the purpose of

my

questioning is, I'm scum? I'll be sure to send you an updated checklist next time.

The (unstated) reason for VP Baltar's vote was that HowardRoark didn't know that Qooq and me have never played together before, and was arguing against VP Baltar questioning Qooq's Town read on me by bringing up a possible meta between us from past experience.
But... that's not necessarily scummy, or at least not to the point of warranting a vote over Qooq. (If anything it would imply that Qooq (Sotty7) and HR are scum together.) Yet that was AFAIK the only time VP Baltar suggested that Qooq could be scum, but HowardRoark never left VPB's scumdar. I would suggest that this is early-game distancing.

Yeah, not scummy unless he's your scum buddy. Why would he as town step in there to defend someone else's town read on you--not to mention that it was on false grounds considering you two hadn't actually played together at all. It didn't warrant a vote on Qooq because Qooq wasn't the one who said that she saw you as town based on your past experiences together, howard did.

I don't see how that's "early-game distancing" either when I had to fight tooth and nail just to get him to L-2 or whatever he was at before you guys derailed it with the Cat wagon.

*(101) VP Baltar says he would never call someone Town on Page 4. From what I know of VP Baltar, I don't believe it (or at least I don't believe he would make such a sweeping statement).

eh, perhaps I would call someone town that early, but certainly not in any really serious way unless I had VERY extensive meta with the person. I can think of only a handful of people who fall into that category. And I do make sweeping statements all the time. They get much better reactions than just saying 'I believe X, but Y and Z could also be true'.

*(121, 129) Izzy calls VP Baltar on a "slip". I'm not sure if the slip is any good, but notice that the only one questioning it is HowardRoark-scum. Twice.

lol, that's not even true. Several people in the game called Izzy's attack on me over the slip poor, including you.

The major difference between Sotty and VP Baltar today is proactivity. Compare for instance Sotty7 858 - where she states clearly what her reads are and asks the mod about the pressing question of the Day - with anything VP Baltar has done today, which has mostly been chilling out asking for/letting people do work for him - in every post. If you really think 880 was made by someone who's interested in finding scum, you're off your rocking chair.

This is a pretty clear piggyback off of Sotty's questioning if I was going to do anything today. The thing that Vi, if she's scum today, is to sway Sotty or I because she can't win with fitz alone. I think Vi saw Sotty's question as a kind of attack she could agree with and use as an in, when in reality Sotty was sort of prodding me out of observation state (or at least that's what I saw Sotty's question as mainly being poised to do).


I find it amusing that Vi clears Sotty for pushing the HR case Day 2, and seems to be implying that I wasn't. Seriously, look at my iso and determine for yourself if I wasn't pushing the Howard case. Saying I was hard bussing him from the start is one thing (albeit ridiculous), but saying I didn't want him lynched is pure lunacy. Hell, even when I went after BloodCovenant later it was largely based on me seeing a connection between he and Howard. I figured if people weren't going to give me Howard (and they were most definitely fighting me tooth and nail on it) then a scum flip out of his most likely buddy BC would give me the momentum I needed to get Howard finished.

I may have been wrong about BC, but I wouldn't have even of needed to go that route if people weren't repeatedly cutting down my attacks before Sotty came in and gave me some assistance.

---

Vi's case full of factual errors basically confirms my read from yesterday that she's highly likely as the last scum. I will look over Sotty one more time to be sure, but every time I've iso'ed her in this game she looks very town to me (and Sotty does fall into that select category of people I feel I can read with very high accuracy).

[VP Baltar]

Sorry about the mas

tin

sive post.

[VP Baltar]

What is keeping you from placing a vote?

I want to double check my read on Sotty to be certain, which may involve rereading the game from after she replaced in. I will get it done at some point today (have a bit of work to finish up this morning) and then I'll probably be voting one way or the other.

[VP Baltar]

lol, trust me, I've been scum with Sotty before and she can be quite tricksy when she needs to be. But I agree with you that she just doesn't look very scummy here.

Of course, we also have no rush to lynch and Vi is away on the weekend. Killing her without giving her a chance to respond seems a bit of a low blow....though if she is highly likely to be the last scum there isn't much of a point in waiting.

Finished my work for the morning, so once I get my shopping done I'll be getting to Sotty.

[VP Baltar]

ok, Sotty still reads town to me on another iso. She's persistent in the Howard wagon and was integral in reviving it afte I had given up most of my hope for it. Vi on the other hand makes a few jabs at him, but she votes and unvotes him at L-4...which is pretty comfortable as scum.

After that she calls him townish until he's dead and I don't really see a reason for doing that since his play never changed.

I'm ready to vote now. Sotty or fitz, if you have something you want to say before I put her at L-1 or want to give her a chance to respond, then I'm fine with waiting. Otherwise we may as well lynch and finally bring this game to a close.

[VP Baltar]

ok, cool.

Vote: Vi

[VP Baltar]

VP Baltar, when did you start seriously considering me as Your Lynch Candidate today? You didn't actually show any sign of actively moving toward me (beyond the casual "Vi or fitz" based on tubby) until I made the first move.

So, you're trying to paint it as OMGUS or something? I said YESTERDAY that you were on my shortlist of the final scum (even though I thought we were going to win with Rosso's lynch).

I definitely wanted to see what you had to say today precisely because of that. Needless to say, it looks scummy. Don't get me wrong, you've put in a good effort this game and I thought you were town for a long time, but PoE is a cruel mistress. You can self-hammer any time.

[VP Baltar]

In this format with 4 people in LYLO...what happens if we end the day 2-2? Hold out hope that scum do a NK and see which two agree tomorrow or have a no-kill by scum and be back at square one?

A majority vote count of (0.5 x PLAYERS_ALIVE) + 1 with the fraction truncated is needed to lynch. (EXAMPLE: (0.5 x 9) + 1 = 4.5 +1 = 5.5 = 5)

A non-majority vote count results in a "no lynch" occurring.

[VP Baltar]

I'm not self-hammering. I'm not out of hope - close, what with my fate resting in the now-confirmed-Town fitz, but not completely out.

So you're claiming scum then?

Did you read half of that previous post, or just the sentence with your name and a question mark?~

I did indeed read it. Most of it wasn't directed at me, so I don't know what you're expecting. As far as your Howard vote (which I'm sure is what you want me to talk about), we're both incorrect. You put him to L-3 and then Cat bumped him up to L-2. Of course, immediately after this you would have benefited from the replacements coming in and dumping a bunch of new discussion material. After which you say:

I wouldn't mind jumping off the Howie wagon for a while.

Unvote: HowardRoark
Vote: Cat

(L-4)

What I fail to understand is how after this incarnation of the Howie wagon he suddenly stopped being a scum suspect for you.

[VP Baltar]

I'm expecting you to see if anything I'm saying to Sotty is reasonable. Of course, this only applies if you're Town, etc.

I don't even see much of you questioning her in there, so what am I supposed to be evaluating? The only real point you seem to bring up is a single line about PRs and I believe Sotty's above post covers pretty thoroughly that you are twisting what she said.

I think what you say about doing whatever it takes not to get lynched in lylo is fair enough, regardless of alignment, but I fail to see how that should make me not see you as scum here.

Basically, there is all of this evidence pointing to you as scum and not so much pointing to Sotty. If you expect me to believe you're not scum, then convince me why Sotty is scum because I certainly don't see it.

Why is what I said - take my previous post, for instance - scummy (more likely to come from scum than Town)?

I'm not sure if I understand this question. You're asking why your post 904 is more likely to come from scum? ....to win the game perhaps?

[VP Baltar]

sigh.

gj Sotty. I hate you.

[VP Baltar]

I don't really hate you. I'm just jealous of your superiority.

[VP Baltar]

Honestly, Sotty deserves a lot of praise for this game considering she was up against two cops and a doc. I probably would have been so depressed if I had gotten a scum role PM in this game.

Granted, Rosso's an idiot, but it was still very well played and Vi is right about the Cat wagon. It was almost elegant the way you pulled it off. The thought briefly crossed my mind that it was a redirect from the Howard wagon, but the way you came back to him later and seemed to be genuinely trying to get him lynched squelched my doubts.

Guess my meta of you isn't nearly as good as it should be. Congrats again!


Thanks for modding, tubby. I know this game was probably more of a hassle than you had imagined it was going to be originally. I was super excited about the player list when it started and I don't really know what happened. Getting that many replacements is a real pain. My only complaint on your end was the vote counts needing to be much more often (VC analysis was nigh impossible) and being cryptic about the rules. In an open game, there should be nothing that isn't known except for peoples' alignments. I feel that you were actively interferring with the game by refusing to state your rules clearly. Anyhow, thanks again.

[VP Baltar]

VP Baltar . . . aaarrrrrrrg! Nice job.

heh, not nice enough!

I think you did a good job of keeping out of the noose for as long as possible. I think if that guilty hadn't come up on you no one would have listened to me.

[VP Baltar]

It's fine Poro. I don't blame you for being annoyed.

[VP Baltar]

It's cool, tubby. You don't owe me anything. I think the players are just as much to blame as anyone else. Many of the folks who passed through this game could have put more effort into it. Sorry that it hurt your game so much.

[VP Baltar]

its ok its like a no fault divorce, i mean there is no real alimony but it still sucks just the same lol

lmao. good simile.

[VP Baltar]

Oh yeah! the flow charts....that's why I nommed hito for the funniest player anyhow. Need to go link that now.

[VP Baltar]

I'm tired right now, but someone should tell VP Baltar that hito was already thirded for Funniest Player

You of all people should know it's important to back up your arguments with proper evidence.

[VP Baltar]

Put the DS down and walk away. Breath.

[VP Baltar]

Put the DS down and walk away. Breath.

now why would i want to do any of that

Spring is nearly here! Go outside, be fruitful and multiply!