Fringe Mafia (Game Over, role PMs posted)

[Zang]

/confirm

[Zang]

Vote: esuriospiritus

For modding a fringe mafia before I could.

Unvote
Vote: TonyMontana

For thinking that voting the mod is a scum tactic.

[Zang]

Sorry, I had an unexpected V/LA this weekend and could not get to a computer. But here's what I think of the game so far.

unvote. Vote: Furcolow

No Lynch is anti-town

Why did you vote furcolow? It was the RVS, every vote is anti-town and just because he voted for it in the RVS does not mean he supports it.

And why I say no lynch is anti town, now I don't have figures for the entire site, in newbie games when NL happens, mafia wins > 80% of the time

1. No lynch is not anti town, that data only supports no lynch in day 1.
2. That is newbie game data. This is a theme game, it has a different amount of players, different roles, different alignments and sometimes different mechanics. Why are you relying on data that has no relation to this game at all?
3. This is like saying "Don't lynch me because I have a 75% chance of being town." It does not matter what the chances are, you have no way of predicting what the outcome would be in this game.

1. Doesn't matter you voted it
2. How would I know, I can't read minds
3. Yes I read but you directed a comment about NL to me so that was me responding, I'm on my iPhone so I didnt quote the entire post

He explained that he did not expect a no lynch in his previous post. And even if he didn't explain it, why would you assume that? I voted for TM, does that mean I want him to be lynched?

do you all want me to claim? L-3

Why do you want to claim at L-3? And why did you only claim your flavor when you did claim?

Why I will vote furcolow:

1. Repeatedly asking whether scum has fakeclaims, even tho it says in the rules that they do.
2. Way to eager to use said fakeclaim.

Then why did you encourage him to claim?

@ Doom - cause I just think he isn't a very good player, I could see his NL suggestion being town motivated, I used to be a fan of NLs until recently, than seeing that data just sealed it

But he did not suggest a no lynch.

I later unvoted cause I have read up on furc's games a little and I see how he plays and lynching him to me seems to be more of a policy lynch, people are voting him just because they latched on to one thing he did.

Which of his games did you read? 

You also say that his wagon seems to go away too early but actually nobody has removed them from his wagon but me, and when I unvoted, somebody else joined it so that is a misrepresentation of facts.

You were the only person pushing the wagon. Lord Chronos and Empking joined for the same reason you did. Doombunny and TM votes on him are very weak. So his wagon is going away,

and if you are town and somebody suggested something anti-town like a no lynch, why would you not vote them just for that? NL is anti town, it removes the need to scum hunt and anyone pushing for a no lynch should be voted.

 

Once again, he never suggested a no lynch. And even If someone did suggest something anti-town, I wouldn't vote for them because there is a difference between anti town and scummy. No lynch is just as bad for mafia if not worse.

Furc has done some scummy moves this game so I will probably vote him again if I don't pick up on something else

So why did you unvote him?

I unvoted him before he claimed, he claimed while nor being close to a lynch, right now out of everyone that is the most scummy behavior I have detected so yes I would go back to him because that has cemented enough to be scum, however you purposely trying to twist everything I say and do into a negative way is being noted for future reference

But you did unvote after he asked if he could claim while at L-3.

what the hell is this straw man crap?

http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Straw_Man

I am entitled to change my mind also

Not when you contradict what you previously said in order to appear more pro-town. 

foilist13 - needs to be replaced or prodded, 1st post he claims his role (if he is telling the truth) which is very odd

He wasn't serious

Doombunny - At first it looked like he was serious about scum hunting but ruins all credibility when he FOS's inactives. instead of FOS'ing them he shoudl request they get prodded. he does FOS me and I adimit I probably deserve to be FOS'd because I changed my mind, if changing my mind is scummy than yeah FOS me, but I personally don't think changing my mind is scummy.

You did the same thing by saying that we needed to be "prodded, replaced or lynched". But you didn't ask the mod to prod us.

furclow - now here is something interesting, remember what I said about Lord Chronos? Furc's first REAL vote was for.... Lord Chronos and the rest of his posts are defense posts and attempts to show he is pro-town

This only works if Lord Chronos is scum so why aren't you voting for him?

Unvote
Vote: HopOnMyJoystick

[Zang]

I do not feel the need to roleclaim
If the town wants me to, I will. At this point, I see two people voting me who are rolefishing (tony montana, and HOMJ)

Why did you flavor claim then? Why arent you claiming?

HOMJ, I would like for you to explain how the WIFOM I used is even negative. The WIFOM I used was that if I was mafia, my partners wouldn't ever let me vote no lynch in the RVS. I would be using that as a time to lay down votes on people who were easy mislynches, or possibly distancing myself from my partners by being on seperate wagons or laying down votes/FoS on them for their votes. I might even vote them, come off their wagon, and do so at a key point.

All WIFOM is bad because if you are scum we have no idea who your partners are or how they would react.

1. That isn't straw man, learn the definition

You have the definition wrong, straw man is only responding to the weak points in a post while intentionally ignoring the strong points.

I linked to the definition in my previous post that you didn't read.

It's fact because there is no way in hell my mafia team would let me vote NL in the RVS.

Your mafia team? How do you know who your mafia team would be?

FoS: Furcolow

[Zang]

1. you say NL is not anti-town, tell me how a no lynch can ever benefit from the town when vote analysis is thrown out of the window and it gives mafia a free kill

No lynch is usually used in a MYLO situation, where if the town mislynches and the mafia kill somebody the town would lose. In this situation, if the town doesn't lynch and the mafia kill, the pool for potential scum is less the next day and the town has a better chance at lynching scum. 

2. why are you defending his vote for a NL, whether or not he expected it or not, no lynch suggestion should never be made, it is anti-town. even if it is rvs but it didn't even seem like an rvs vote to me

I'm not defending his no lynch suggestion, my point was that he never made a no lynch suggestion.

3. you also say I was pushing andrew's wagon but I never actually pushed for his wagon, why would you say that? - if you feel doom and TM's votes on hm are weak, why are you not directing your attention to him also instead of just at me?

I dont see how you weren't pushing his wagon since you seriously voted for him. I don't understand your second question.

4. yes he does suggest no lynch when he votes for it and why would you not vote for somebody who suggests something anti-town? you said there is a difference between anti-town and scummy and you are right. Anti-town is not town, scummy is bad but scummy =/= anti-town. If someone sugested something anti-town I definitely would go after them for it. why would you not? and how is not going after somebody suggesting anti-town helping town?

He did not suggest a no lynch because his vote was random. I randomly voted for TM, does that mean I was suggesting his lynch? I wasn't. 

If somebody did something anti town, I would not vote for him. Although both anti town and scummy are bad, there is a significant difference. Anti town is usually a Townie who's play/suggestion is unkowingly detrimental to the town. Scummy is doing things that can be scum motivated in order to help yourself/the rest of the mafia appear more town.  Not going after somebody that suggests something anti town doesn't help the town but neither does going after him.

5. I skipped the part where you asked which games I read, I will have to go back and find those if you really want me to, sorry I didn't do that earlier. Also Iunvoted him because I thought based on his meta he was furc being furc, but the more I re-read and read other games I found that not to be true, the clincher was the claim too early, obscure name, and failure to throw in the role. if you are going to claim you go all or nothing.

It's always important to post the games you read otherwise nobody could prove that your meta is correct.

6. yes I realize I unvoted him when he asked, but he had not done it yet. asking if he can and actually doing it without someone asking him to claim are 2 different things. Claim should be done at L-1 and typically when someone asks for it, now because of the other site I play, if I get to L-1 I will claim without being asked because I have been hammered more times than I can count without given a chance to claim and sadly I have hammered people without allowing them to claim and been town when I did it.

I agree that claiming should be done at L-1. But I still don't see the difference between asking to claim at L-3 and claiming at L-3.

7. how do you seem so sure foilist wasn't serious

For one thing he claimed 3 roles and completely contradictory wincons. He also posted this which implies that he was joking-

If I say completely serious will you believe me?

Olivia Dunham is the star of the show. She's an FBI agent and works for fringe division (they deal with paranormal stuff). The way the show works is they get random science majors in college, give them LSD, and write whatever they see into the show. Walternate is the alternate universe version of Walter Bishop who is an insane but brilliant scientist, and the cab driver appeared in one episode in the second season and really isn't very important at all.

8. I thought mod would pick up on my comment and just do it, if I was a mod I would not wait til somebody bolded the request.

That depends on the mod. When I mod, I usually wait until it's bolded.

9. I actually think you are wrong, I think it is more if furc is scum than LC is possibly scum with him.

From the way you wrote it, it seemed like it was the other way.

10 . I never understood why you voted me without a reason, you ask me a bunch of questions but you never actually say ANYTHING about me being scummy and what exactly is scummy about it. also if you ask people questions don't you think they deserve proper time to respond before voting them? is that proper town mentality to ask a bunch of questions and vote them in the same post? if so than this site truely is strange.

I don't specifically state my reasons, they are scattered throughout my post and are usually phrased as questions. My vote shows that I think you're scummy, why would I need to say it? I voted for you because of your previous actions, I already think you're scummy. How you answer the questions will change my vote or make it stronger.

at zang, one more thing. why a FOS at furc and not a vote or at the very least an unvote?

Because I'm voting for you, I think you're scummier and I wanted your response to my post.

not like im a doctor or anything

Are you claiming?

Lord, you really think both fur and I are scum together?

I think it's possible. You are both scummy and you could be bussing.

[Zang]

Vote: Furcolow

I agree that his claim probably wouldn't help him and his lynch will probably reveal the most about the game. HOMJ can be lynched tomorrow.

[Zang]

Vote: HopOnMyJoystick

For same reasons as before and the stuff below.

vote zany

he could have waited for furclow to come and post one more time.

I already explained this. Having him claim would not have stopped his lynch, especially if he was going to claim vanilla townie. And why didn't you say this before? Instead of just responding to my post by saying that the town shouldn't lynch you.

And sometime before this game is over, I'd really like to know why setup speculation is bad, an informed town can make better decisions

All setup speculation is WIFOM, we have no way of knowing what roles/alignments are or aren't in the game. The mod has even said not to try to outgess the setup numerous times-

There are probably some ludicrously minor roles in this game. Attempting to use flavour to outguess the mod may not go as well as you think...

It nay be considered weak but that plus his limited activity yet monster walls of text struck me as odd. He seems to just join in on furc and my case without looking at anyone else

he doesn't really try to scum hunt.

I have limited activity in all of my games. I try to make up for my low activity with the "monster wall of texts". I also usually only focus on one or two people in the first two days. And I am scumhunting you're just not reading my walls of text.

and it wasn't just the quick hammer, because tbh I would have done the same thing in that position, it really is more the fact that he comes in after being inactive and joins in on the top 2 scummy people.

Then why did you only give the reason that I quick hammered him when you voted for me? And if you would have done the same thing, why did you think it's scummy that I did it?

[Zang]

I only gave one reason originally cause I was on my phone. Just letting you know you are barking up the wrong tree here so go scum hunt and let's not mislynch again.

Stop using that excuse. I've made all of my posts in this game on my phone and you've made enough to be able to write two more sentences. 

no I don't think quick hammers are scummy, but I think Zang quick hammering when he basically pops in and joins in on the 2 wagons without really commenting on anyone else IS scummy

Did you even read the rest of my post? I already explained this.

if you read my games you will have seen me basically disprove every buzzword you guys like to throw out there.

Quick hammers are not scummy
game setup speculation is not scumy
WIFOM is not scummy
AtE is not scummy

You did not explain why any of that is scummy, all you did was say that you do not think they are scummy. That's not disproving them.

[Zang]

Than dont beleive me zang. They are nit scummy cause I can provide examples of town using them.

If you can prove town uses those scummy tactics, that proved those tactics are not scum tells

a scumm tell is sonething scum does so if town also does it than it is called disproving it

I can also prove town using them. I'm saying that they are used mostly by scum and when town do use them it is anti town, I never said that they are scum tells and neither did you. Just because they are scummy doesn't mean they are scum tells.

[Zang]

V/LA until saturday

[Zang]

Im also here and you can expect another huge wall of text tomorrow.

[Zang]

Wall of text covering 11 pages-

Zang: What's the difference between something that is "scummy" and something that is a "scum tell".

To me, scummy Is an action that benefits scum whether performed by scum or town while a scum tell is a scummy action performed by scum.

 For example, you would say-

"that is scummy but he acts like this in all of his games so he is town."

But you wouldn't say-

"that is a scum tell but he acts like this in all of his games so he is town.

So if you seen pro town use them whu immediately come after those guys that do it and act like they ate scum for doing it?

Can you read you're posts before you post them?

And like I said, they are performed mostly by scum.

if I came in and saw someone insulted another player, no matter who it was I would vote them immediately

Why? Someone insulting you is not scummy.
 
And calling someone a bad mafia player  isn't an insult. I have been called a bad mafia player before and I've called people a bad mafia player. It's not an insult, it's a fact based on a persons average play as town. And empking (obviously) didn't call him a bad mafia player to insult him or because he believed it, he did it to prove a point.

Zang: If somebody sarcasticly says "town please follow emp because he is scum hunting yo" is it fair to presume that something prompted that and its not just a random comment.

Yes, I don't see how it wouldn't be prompted by anything if it is not random.

no I am not buddying
and what I mean was it seemed like you just insulted a player (atleast that is how I took that comment) and it isn't a pro-town thing to say. Even if you didn't mean it as an isult, that whole statment wasn't very pro-town

How is an insult anti town?

I already said if you are pro-town there is no reason to insult someone, so if I logged into a game and saw someone had been insulted, I would vote the person doing the insulting.

insults are not pro town

But most town aren't pro-town. Even if they intend to be pro-town, most are neutral or antitown. And there is a diffeence between not pro-town, anti-town and scummy, only scummy is vote worthy.

so instead of asking me of insignificant things, start scum hunting cause you have yet to do it this game.

You can not say that someone is not scum hunting because they are scum hunting you.

2. The reason you gave for your vote was "same as yesterday" which isn't a good enough reason in my opinion

Why not? Nothing changed between the days except the lynch and kills which if anything should incriminate you more.

you are hoping town is stupid enough to just blindly follow you to another mislynch but in reality if town mislynches today we are in deep shit.

So you and everybody else on the Furcolow wagon blindly followed empking to a mislynch? Just because he was the first person to vote for him? If anybody the town followed you to the Furcolow mislynch.

I don't see any reasons in your votes.

As I've said before, reasons aren't just given in votes, they are shown in questions and comments.

3. I VOTED FOR SOMEBODY, so clearly I did not keep my options open. I also later went and attacked Lord and Nocman because I felt they were scum, in my mind those 3 were the scum team so I did not keep my options open, I narrowed down to 3

But later you could unvote them and vote for someone else saying that you have thought that they are scummy. That's still keeping your options open.

well you may as well go start looking at those 3 because I can GUARANTEE you I am not scum so why mislynch when you can go get the real deal.

Stop saying that. No matter how many times you GUARANTEE that you're town. It still means nothing.

1. my comment about scum talking looks fake - however it is well known that scum talking during the day on this site is very rare

It is not very rare, I've been in a few games with scum talking during the day. Talking at night is just more common.

Have you ever played epic mafia? Missing means dead but janitored

No, I haven't. But we're not playing epic mafia, we have no way of knowing what missing means.

Zang, and possibly Furc need rope.

Why? (and Furcolow is dead)

zang votes never makes a valid case

How have I not provided a valid case?

1. Appeal to numbers? - viewtopic.php?p=2625413#p2625413 - so you throw that buzzword to make yourself feel smart. way to go and when statistics prove that voting NL is pretty anti-town, there is nothing wrong with it.

I have already explained why NL is not anti-town. I've also already given you my thoughts on statistics in general, all statistics are WIFOM.

this is called active lurking and is what scum do.

No, it's not. Active lurking is posting frequently but not providing any content.

ok let me ask you this, If I happen to get to L-1 are you even going to believe me when I claim?

Why are you asking this? The town has no idea what you will claim so it is impossible for us to predict how we will react.

if I have than I really fucked up somewhere because I am very much pro-town

This is a contradiction. Two posts before this you said the emp is hunting VIs but know you say that you're pro-town. A VI can not be pro-town, if they are then they aren't a VI.

3. Neither bv nor myself have turned a sudden u-turn on one another despite considering them the scummiest player previously.

It's hard to make a sudden U-turn on reads when you've only made a few posts.

 and there is no reason to imply that if not trying to imply you are town

Everybody both town and scum tries to imply that they are town.

Your rebuttal in the above post is strictly your opinion, sadly opinions in this game don't hold much weight

I disagree, mafia is based completely on opinions. For example, It is my opinion that you are scum. 

also calling someone a VI I have learned on site is more of a scum tactic than a town tactic

So you think it's scummy that emp called you a VI but you previously called yourself a V1.

btw if anyone wants me to bullet my reasons why he is scum, please ask and I will gladly do so, I won't hide my information because OMG scum may read it also.

Please do this.

and I hope people notice that your activity went WAY UP once pressure built on you, before that you were just lurking and posting sporadically, now everytime someone posts something about you, you are right online to respond.

I don't find this scummy. I used to behave the same way.

3. denies bandwagon hopping and even claims to be on the wagon early, however emp was vote number 4 out of 7 for furc, the 4th vote officially makes a bandwagion

Weren't you previously arguing about how he was the 1st person on the wagon?

8. results to false accusations (straw man) and insults (VI calling)

I think I've explained this but calling someone a VI isn't an insult. 

13. he says BV doesn't look like he is trying for the mislynch by voting me, but how can he know it would be a mislynch if he knew I was town.

But he doesn't know you're town. If BV wasnt trying to make a mislynch by voting for you, that would make you scum.

14. he declares BV is town but later backtracks and changes it to 80% he is town

1.He said 90%.
2. He never changed anything, he said that he was 90% sure that he is town, nobody can ever be 100% sure that someone is town unless they are somehow confirmed.

15. directs most of his posts towards TM, in an obvious attempt to get TM on his side

How is this scummy? Isn't the whole point of a case to persuade someone to vote for the person you think is scummy?

very interesting note, Emp's last log on is registered as Novermber 26th yet he has posted all day, the only time I have logged on anonymous is when I was scum.

How do you know he's anonymous for this game? maybe he's scum in another game.

And I have logged on as anonymous before as town for many reasons.

i'm not going to discuss this any more. Reading through DB's posts I'm pretty sure I was wrong about GW and TM.

So you no longer have scum reads on them?

Well atleast you have realized you are caught

More votes on emp please

He never admitted to being caught.

He just changed his reads, which town are able to do.

4. Zang, weren't we supposed to get a wall from you today?

Sorry I'm late.

smargaret, I am not "trying" to look anything. I am playing the way I play. lack of activity is what makes these games boring and these days drag on forever when they don't have to. Emp is clearly scum yet nobody is around to do anything about it

We have plenty of activity from you and empking but this game is still boring. It doesn't matter how much activity of a game, what matters is the progress that activity brings. And that can also be applied to you.

You won't give your reads 
You find 4 people scum

He already gave his reads, he just won't give the reasoning behind 3 of them.

The reason why he hasn't given his cases is probably because you keep calling them reads.

[Zang]

you know when I checked in a few minutes ago and saw zang's name at the bottom of the screen I was hopeful we were finally getting his posts he promised, I see that was a lie and I can only think that he doesn't have much to say since is scum buddy emp is flailing all over the place.

Is that post good enough for you?

[Zang]

To you it may be insulting. But to me it's a rational name based on your play and how you help the town if at all.

By calling yourself a VI, I get the feeling that you believe the second definition whether you do or don't.

[Zang]

When I say the name of a person in a quote, all the unnamed quotes until the next name are from that person.

And I wrote that on my phone, they can read it on their phone.

[Zang]

Responce to HOMJs response-

1. no town is often accused of using AtE by scum, this is the consensus I have seen in games I have read and in other discussions on site

I don't think I've mentioned AtE or how scum doesn't accuse town of doing it. 

2. insulting a player is scummy

How?

3. insult is anti-town becauseit is scummy play, there is no need to insult people

An insult is anti-town but insulting people does not help the scum at all, scum have no motivation to insult people. Especially if the insult is VI which is generally not considered to be an insult.

So it is not scummy.

4. "But most town aren't pro-town. Even if they intend to be pro-town, most are neutral or antitown. And there is a diffeence between not pro-town, anti-town and scummy, only scummy is vote worthy." This makes no sense to me

What I'm saying is that most town aren't pro-town. If they were, then there would be no mislynches.

"You can not say that someone is not scum hunting because they are scum hunting you." But I have proven he wasn't scum hunting me, he if anything was just spaghetti throwing

Originally he was not scum hunting. But he started scum hunting when you started attacking him.

6. regaridng your question about emp saying "same as yesterday" I said it isn't good enough because he never gave a valid reason for his votes on me day 1 so it made no sense for him to use that. plus he implied his voting first was somehow scum hunting which is also fail logic

Ok, I didn't know what his original reasons were when I said that.

7. you never provided a valid case, that is how I can say you never posted a valid case. Hiding your reasons in walls of text where nobody can see them hurts town, not helps them. the way you post these walls of text actually hurt town because it makes it impossible to respond to them easily. I am having a bitch of a time right now, you are purposely complicating things in hopes people will just not respond to you.

I have provided a valid case, just because you are to lazy to read a wall of text doesn't mean I'm hiding my reasons. All of my reasons are there for anyone to see. 

How am I purposefully complicating things? I really don't see how it is so hard to read a few paragraphs and respond to them. And I'm not hoping for the town to ignore them, the reason why I post walls of text is so that the town can see all my thoughts on the game.

8. "I have already explained why NL is not anti-town. I've also already given you my thoughts on statistics in general, all statistics are WIFOM." you can give your reasons all you want but saying statistics are WIFOM is actually crap, statistics that can prove something is FACT.

Ok, if statistics if statistics prove fact then I have a 75% chance of being town so I it is a fact that I am town.

9. you really don't understand the term active lurking - from wiki "A subset of lurking is the so-called "active lurking", where a player posts in the thread but without making any contribution to the progress of the game. Their posts may be minimal in length, off-topic, or merely parroting what other players have already said" and quite a few people are doing that, I am making my case and emp keeps providing me with more evidence. I can say someone like DB could be accused of active lurking cause he fits into the "parroting"

Ok, using that definition, you are also active lurking because you aren't contributing to the progress of the game. In the last 10 pages, you and empking have both made no progress toward a lynch.

10. I asked emp specifically if I was L-1, because he seemed so convinced I was scum I fear that even if I claimed he would not believe me, which is anti-town behavior to not be open to the idea of changing his mind, which I don't feel like he would and I still don't feel like he would change his mind about me.

I completely agree. What I was asking was how is he supposed to answer that if he doesnt know what you will claim.

11. emp's directed almost all of his posts at that time towards one person, it is scummy because it seems like he is trying to get that one person on his side, he shoudl be directing it to everyone not just TM

TM is the only person undecided between you being scum and him being scum. 

12. I don't understand how a VI can be anti-town when V stands for village, if a person is anti-town than call hm an SI. VI implies that he is town, SI implies he is scum

Anti-town is not the same thing as  scummy. Anti-town is an action that hurts the town while scummy is an action that benefits the scum.

16. ".He said 90%., He never changed anything, he said that he was 90% sure that he is town, nobody can ever be 100% sure that someone is town unless they are somehow confirmed." No originally he made a declarative statement that BV was town, he later retracted it to 90% (yeah I said 8 instead of 90%, who really cares about that. The fact that he declared BV as town (without a percentage) is suspicious cause there is only one way he can know that.

My point is that there is no 100% town. Have you ever been 100% sure that someone was town? 

He just changed his reads, which town are able to do.seems like he is "keeping his options open" and since he accused me of being scum for doing it, that means he shoudl be accused of scum for doing it

No, he changed his reads, you had all the same reads. They're completely different.

The reason why he hasn't given his cases is probably because you keep calling them reads." Semantics cause it's fucking obvious I want him to post cases, you just proved it. and why are you defending emp? just proves you are his scum buddy to me

Unless you're scum.

[Zang]

this is the best I can do to post responses to your crappy wall of text, if you do this again I am just going to ignore it because there is no easy way to dig through them to respond properly

Why was it so hard for you to respond to it?

But fine, I even broke this post up into two.

why the fuck do you think I am harpiong on people being active, activity makes games fun

No it doesn't. Like I said, activity doesn't brink fun the quality of the game does.

@Zang+HOMJ- Could you two, I dunno... Organize your walls a bit better in the future, parts of them can get confusing.

I'll try although I don't know what's wrong with them.

@Zang- If I'm not mistaken, your top FoS is HOMJ, can you consolidate your reasoning into a short yet consice list for my sake?

1.Taking advantage of Furcolows vote for no lynch and saying that no lynch is always scummy.
2.Being reliant on unreliable statistics.
3.Changing the reasoning behind his vote on me day 2.
4.Thinking that insulting someone is scummy.
5.Calling himself a VI but thinking it's scummy when someone else does it.
6.Thinking that empking is still not scum hunting.

Also, I've noticed you've said a lot about HOMJ and a bit about emp but what about the other players (And please, this time just make a short post about them. No walls again XD)

Here's my reads on everybody in order from scum to town.

Scum              HOMJ
                     Shattered Viewpoint
                     Primate
Neutral           TM
                      Doombunny                      
                      Bv310
                      empking
Town              Smargaret

I'm not sure I like Zang coming in and landing on the biggest wagon; it's not the first time he's done this. Zang, who do you think is scum besides Hop?

I never came in and landed on the biggest wagon. Day 1, I think Furcolow was the biggest wagon when I voted for HOMJ and I've been voting for him since my first post on day 2.

I gave my reads above although it largely depends on whether HOMJ is scum or not.

Is it pro town or anti town to respond to multiple accusations with. "bull" and explain why

Personally it's anti town because "bull" isn't a valid response, it doesn't say or show why the info is wrong, it also means "to me" that you can't Even formulate a logical reason to dispute it

It is a valid response and it does say why if he explains why it's bull, Which you say.

[Zang]

1. Exactly my point, he didn't start scum hunting til I pointed out he wasn't scum hunting, which should prove this behavior is more suspicious.

But like I said before, I don't find this scummy.

3. Can you post a link that proves your statistic is remotely true? Because I was able to post a link for mine. My statistic = actual statistic supported by actual data. Your statistic is supported only by your own claim

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 4#p2604914

Ok there's actually a 67% chance but the point is still true. There are 9 players left in the game assuming that there are 3 scum then there is a 67% chance if there are less then the percentage increases and there wouldn't be more.

4. The only time I have been 100% sure someone was town is when I have been scum, which is why I pointed it out, he originally declared bv as town and went back and covered his tracks by saying he is 90% town. I feel it was a minor slip on his part but it was a slip. The only way he can declare someone town like he originally did would be if he were scum

Exactly, When you think someone is town do you say 90% chance of being town or do you just say town?

[Zang]

if town's job is to scum hunt, how is it town motivated to not scum hunt until somebody calls them out on it?

It's not. One of the things I've been saying in my last few posts is that not all town act pro town. 

When I would wait for somebody to attack me, I was usually bored with the game. When somebody posted a case on me, it would give me something to respond to and I would slowly get more involved in the game. This reminds me of empking.

3. I would say "I think this person is town" I would not say

What would you say if you think someone is scum?

I am William Bell, owner of Massive Dynamic. I am pro-town commuter. I am able to go to the alternate universe to prevent being killed or kidnapped

Why did you put pro-town? Shouldn't it be assumed that you're role is town? 

This is a really safe claim for scum since his role does not benefit the town, there is no way of proving his claim and no one would find it weird how he is never killed. 

Oh and I'm telling the truth, there is no way if you are pro-town you can honestly say I have not been scum hunting, if I'm wrong on you emp, I'm sorry but you are the biggest read I have right now

Scum can't scum hunt.

[Zang]

1. Yes it is town's job to scum hunt, scum already knows who town is. You little example is unnecessary and wifom

I agree that it is the towns job to scum hunt, what I am saying is that not all townies do scumhunt.

And I thought you didn't find WIFOM scummy. Besides, you can look at some of my early games to prove it.

2. I say they are scum, sometimes I may say I think they are but if I'm pretty sure I say they are

So why is it ok for you to say that someone is scum but it is scummy for empking to say that someone is town?

3. I put pro- town cause I didn't want to copy the actual wording. The actual wording is town hypen (not spelled out) aligned 
May be a safe claim in your book but it's the truth, there are restrictions so I'm not unkillable

It's not copying to say town before your role name.

I guessed that there are restrictionsu but when somebody does try to kill you that night you will conveniently claim that you commuted that night or when the mafia don't kill you will claim that you commuted that night.

4. Ok I agree but I'm scum hunting and emp isn't, yet you still coming after me

You are hunting not scum hunting.

And like I said, empking is scum hunting now.

My strong case vs his weak case, yeah lets's keep the week case guy around and kill the guy with the iron clad case

Your case isn't strong. If it was then emp would have already been lynched or there would at least be more people voting for him. The only reason why the emp wagon has has three people on it is because TM and Doombuny, who are both active lurking, are looking for an easy wagon that makes it look like they're scum hunting.

her 180 flip has no valid reason even after she strongly agreed with me about empking

Just because she switches between the two major wagons does not mean it's a 180 flip.

I clicked on that site and a game link took me to the site is for psychopath mafia, we are not playing on psychopath mafia

We are also not playing on epic mafia.

[Zang]

1. Did I say your wifom was scummy?

No, but it seemed to be implied.

2. The only one who can know someone is town is scum, I have seen many people lynched for it, myself included. Never once seen anyone called out for saying "you are scum"

And the only one who can know someone is scum is scum. I still do not understand the difference.

4. Nobody has even rebutted my case, everyone has ignored it. I can't speculate why emp hasn't been lynched. We have SV replacing out, bv hasn't been here to read anything I posted, and primate hasn't voted. Those 3 could lynch him or me, who knows

Yes, we have many times.

5. It wasn't just his 180, which it is because he agreed with me twice and than lied and denied it, he switched over to emp and his reason is weak. He has been caught lying more than once so yes his actions need more looking into

So it wasn't his 180  but it is?

6. If you can't honestly tell I worded it like that cause of the comment made towards me about epic, than *bangs head on iPhone*

So you don't find it scummy that she used a different wiki?

Do I really need to spell out that I have role-related privvy info that more or less confirms Hop's commuter claim? Nobody can take a hint in this town?

This just proves that you are also scum.

Fair enough but her other lies need to be looked at eventually

What other lies? You only posted one other lie.

Clearly he is outing himself to prevent a mislynch since you guys clearly didn't beleive my TRUE claim

So you're not even going to consider that he might be lying?

Or cause it's a bastard mod game (whatever that means) he could have something like flavor or role cop instead of normal pro town/ anti town results

So you signed up for a bastard game without even knowing what that is?

Why don't you look it up in "the wiki"?

But I posted 2 Quotes where she agreed with me about case and I'm unable to find any post where I agreed with her

That is 2 count them 2 lies

That's only 1 lie, you can just disprove it 2 ways.

Rb would be told he was RB

Why? Have you ever been in a mafiascum bastard mini theme game modded by Euriospritus where you were roleblocked? If not then you have no way of knowing what would happen if you are roleblocked.

It is a role guranteed to be in fringe

Maybe but not with that flavor. William Bell can not travel between universes at will during the series. If anyone was going to be a commuter it should be Olivia Dunham.

[Zang]

4. did yo miss the word JUST, it wasn't JUST his 180. It was his lying also. 180 for no reason + bold face lying IS SCUM there is no way to say lying is pro-town, especially something so obvious of a lie and anyone trying to spin his lies as being pro-town is scum. notice she has not even commented on the lies or even tried to explain herself, you don't find that odd?

The JUST didn't clarify anything for me.

I believe Smargaret about the 180 and lie because she's my most town read.

5. I find it scummy that she said she used "THE WIKI", than claimed to Google it, than pointed a link to ANOTHER WIKI NOT RELATED TO MAFIA SCUM. so YES I find it scummy

Did you even check google? It's one of the first few results. 

And if you don't use the wiki, how are you supposed to know what it is?

7. no i don't consider him lying because I know for a fact that I am town, so anyone who can clear me is clearly not lying especially cause I commuted and mod confirmed all actions failed, he claims his action against me failed so he is most likely telling the truth.

But assuming you're town, couldn't TM be scum or an SK trying to get himself confirmed as town by buddying with you?

8. I signed up when I saw people saying / in for fringe. I never even saw the mod post in the thread about the game, I just said "OOH I like fringe so why not"

Ok, but you didn't look up what a bastard game is when you saw it in the rules?

9. the 2nd lie was the whole wiki thing. it was a lie you don't say I saw it in the wiki, oh I googled, oh I found it on another wiki not related to mafia scum, if you are telling the truth.

How was she supposed to know that it wasn't the mafiascum wiki?

11. well this is a bastard mod game so anything is possible, like mod said, we shoudl not try to out-guess the mod

So you do know what a bastard game is now?

And I know what the mod said. That's why I didn't post that when I first saw your claim.

I am sorry, emp has not done a single thing to help the town catch scum and you guys follow him

I'm not following emp. I've known that you are scum since day 1.

because in the game of mafia, you don't lynch a cleared person, and until somebody can come out and prove tony is lying with a CC or something, he is cleared. and he has cleard me so I am cleared,

Using that logic, scum could win just by saying that they cleared eachother.

he hasn't even really said what role he is so he could be vig, or cop, or something else and in every other game if somebody comes out with evidence that somebody is clear, that person doesn't get lynched.

But you did say what his role is. You said that someone tried to kill you last night when you commuted.

and I will repeat myself IN MAFIA YOU DO NOT LYNCH THE PERSON WHO IS CLEARED SO UN VOTE NOW IF YOU ARE TOWN

failure to unvote is admission of guilt IMO

Ok

Unvote
Vote: HopOnMyJoystick

1. I am more cleared than you or anyone else

So? You still have just as much of a chance of being scum.

Zang - comes out of his hole every 2 days and posts huge walls of text and is the only one who makes sense, except he refuses to comment on my case on emp and why it's wrong

I'm pretty sure I have or at least the major points of it.

What I would Like I'd for you each to post 3 or 4 things I have done that are scum tells and explain why they ate scum tells to you

I'm pretty sure I just did this-

1.Taking advantage of Furcolows vote for no lynch and saying that no lynch is always scummy.
2.Being reliant on unreliable statistics.
3.Changing the reasoning behind his vote on me day 2.
4.Thinking that insulting someone is scummy.
5.Calling himself a VI but thinking it's scummy when someone else does it.
6.Thinking that empking is still not scum hunting.

I'm also adding that he claimed commuter which is a safe claim for scum.

[Zang]

I'm Back! And I'll post more tomorrow.

Also, its pretty obvious Zang is dead

I'm glad you didn't give up hope.

[Zang]

Exams and essays, smarg. Got plenty of free time now, so I figured I'd go ahead and do a bit of a reread. Something stunk in Empking's posting, and I figured he was worth it, so I went ahead and investigated him. He is scum. Let's hurry up and lynch him, then aim for his buddy (I'm thinking either Primate or CDB at this point)

1.It's good that your active now but what are your thoughts on day 1 and 2? 
2.What were your reasons for investigating empking? 
3.Does your role say that you are guaranteed sane? This is a bastard theme game, I wouldn't be surprised if there is an insane or paranoid cop, a hidden miller or some other role that messes with your investigation.

I just meant it as in "We already have Empking caught as scum, plus CDB is being all lurky, and now DB's reaction is hella scummy. Therefore, third scum."

CDB is being all lurky? Like you were yesterday?

As for what we talked about in the quicktopic; none of my neighbors talked all that much. Basically SV neighborized me because he wasn't sure if I was town or not and wanted more info and his post restriction does not apply to the QT. Currently, I am trying to find a way with CD to work around the post restriction so he can communicate with us easier.

Did he actually admit that he had a post restriction and that it didn't apply in the quicktopic or are you assuming that because of what he posted? 

You misspelled "Scum Goon" here buddy. No reaction to my investigation at all?

Why would he be a goon? 

And there isn't really anything to respond to when your whole case on him  is that you got a guilty result on him.

Hi Zang! What do you think about Smarg being Emp\s scumbuddy? Trying to discredit a cop investigation on her confirmed-scum buddy seems to be pretty clear to me, even when I'm drunk.

Smargaret is still my most town read and there are a lot more scummy people than empking to lynch.

And I don't think she's trying to discredit it. There hasn't been much bastard in this game so I think an insane cop or some other mechanic that would mess with your investigation is likely. Unless TM or Primate have an incredibly bastard role that they haven't claimed yet.

I was previously ignoring them for the simple reason that I did not have other strong reads beyond what I posted. By ignoring you, I had hoped you would move on and let me be my lurky self in peace My claim, however, is fully truthful.

Then why did you post those reads if you knew they weren't strong?

Saying that you have reads on someone just so that you can have reads on someone is very scummy.

FoS: Bv310

Vote: Primate

I really don't like how he does nothing all day and just came in and hammered HOMJ without giving his thoughts on anything else.

[Zang]

The reason I am suspicious of bv is that I am Peter Bishop, doc.

Unvote
Vote: Bv310

TM is the only one left to claim other than Zang, and I think we should leave whether or not Zang claims anything more to him, since he's confirmed town. TM should claim next.

My role has already been revealed I'm Olivia Dunham, Transverser of worlds. Whenever I go missing, I will return 72 hours later and I will be confirmed as town.

Oh, and I'm not voting you now just in case part of the bastard mod was giving two players the same rolename - L-3 isn't necessarily safe from a quickhammer.

I really don't think a themed game even if it is bastard would have two roles based on the same person. 

[Zang]

So why the hell would bv claim something that wasn't a safeclaim?

His safeclaim probably didn't match the role he wanted to claim. Or maybe, scum were given fake safeclaims.

Zang, I've seen one; I don't recall if the game was labeled as bastard or not though.

Was there a flavor reason behind it? I don't think anybody would put two of the same flavor name without any reason. 

Also, why protect zang? I'd like to hear some reasoning.

Vote: Zang Obvious fake Olivia

I'm mod confirmed town. Even in a bastard game, a mod wouldn't confirm someone as town that isn't town. Bastard games are unbalanced but no game has a 100% chance of victory for scum. Which Is what this game would be if I was scum.

What changed beyond your obv-fake counterclaim?

How is it obvfake? Obvfake does not mean that you have the same role name and are town. Because that is not obvious to the town.

[Zang]

It was a pokemon-themed game, and I know absolutely nothing about pokemon. I think bv was actually a player in that game, though.

Well in the pokemon universe, there are multiple types of each pokemon. Even in the Fringe universe, there are 2 versions of most characters. But there is only one Peter Bishop.

Lies... I've seen anti death millers before (Scum that appear as town when they die). If they can "confirm" dead scum then they can do the same to alive ones. It's called a bastard game for a reason. Nevertheless, I beleive your claim.

This is different because I'm not dead. Having scum appear as town after the death can change the game, but an alive on would almost completely ruinthe towns chances of winning.

[Zang]

Not happy with BV using his kill before his cop ability. ATM It's my feel the scum is probably smarg though. When doing a gambit like this, a player isn't going to pick a role like peter bishop unless they know they aren't going to be counterclaimed. And the role helps, but honestly he could have claimed a bunch of stuff with the same effect, so why claim peter in those circumstances? If I'm missing something about the flavour please correct me.

Who do you think is scum? Why aren't you voting?

An idea: How about we No Lynch then Smarge kills bv, so we get rid of bv scum but we don't risk losing by lynching me or Smarge.

I don't see how this is different then lynching BV.

On that note, Smarg trying to claim insane doc is blatantly false, since Zang was taken to the other side, then returned as mod-confirmed Town. Unless you're trying to say your N1 "protect" straight killed your target, then your N2 sent them to the Other Side and back. More Smarg votes please.

Except she didn't send me to the other side, someone else probably did. Depending on the mods order of actions,  Bv's protect/kill didn't work on me because I was already in the other side and could not be targeted.

Please see post 846. I figured why the hell shouldn't I, it couldn't hurt after all.

HOMJ did try the same thing on day 2.

I have a Doc left. I just wanted to act vague to try and make the scum second-guess NKing me after we lynch one of them.

So you didn't claim your whole role in a massclaim so that you widnt get killed? It's lylo, we'll be lucky if we make it tonight and there are a lot more roles powerful than a one shot doc. 

And I'm confirmed town, I'm probably scums first choice to kill.

[Zang]

V/LA until December 27

[Zang]

I'm here but I won't be able to post anything until tomorrow.

[Zang]

Vote: smarg

I see what you're selling, and I'm not buying

Why? Her reasons for bring V/la are very reasonable.

If we lynch Emp and he's not scum then you're scum. Nice try.

No, he could be insane or paranoid. We should lynch either bv or Smargaret since one of them is definitely scum. At this point, I'm fine with lynching either one although I still prefer bv.

Unvote
Vote: Smargaret

[Zang]

Vote: bv310

My thoughts: Smarg was the shapeshifter. Not like anyone's gonna believe me now, despite the fact that we had a shapeshifter-cop claim before, but hopefully you guys can still win this after you get rid of me.

She could not have been a shapeshifter because shapeshifters kill the person that they are becoming before shapeshifting so there can still only be one.

We need to lynch BV before Doombunny and TM are found dead.

[Zang]

How do you know that?

Because I watch the show.

[Zang]

Which proves that you are scum.

[Zang]

So... uh... that's a lynch and possible game over? =/

Possible but very unlikely.

[Zang]

sorasgoof/smargaret - Charlie Francis (alternate) - Shapeshifter

shapeshifters kill the person that they are becoming before shapeshifting so there can still only be one.