Mini 1079: Midnight Mafia- Game End

[Zdenek]

I'd like to open this up with a question: if you are in four man mylo would you prefer to no lynch first and lynch in three man lylo or lynch someone in mylo? What about six man mylo?

I ask because this seems to be something that comes up fairly regularly and there are reasonable arguments on both sides. No lynching raises the chances of randomly lynching scum in lylo, but this argument isn't too good because by then we aren't voting randomly. In mylo there are more town voices to be heard, and it is harder for scum to direct the vote. With this in mind, I think I prefer to lynch in six man mylo rather than no lynch. Though, I am not as sure about four man mylo.

[Zdenek]

Thanks for the responses to my question.

1) How much experience do you have in playing Mafia?
Since my join date.

2) What is the square root of an apple pie?
Err

3) Do you prefer playing as mafia or as the town?
So far town. I like trying to figure out who the scum are.

4) How many licks DOES it take to get to the Tootsie Roll center of a Tootsie Pop?
A bunch.

5) How would you describe your emotional state coming into this game? Nervous? Confident? Timid? Ambitious?
Pretty good, maybe ambitious. I don't have an reason to be nervous or confident yet.

6) Coke or Pepsi?
Coke

7) Do you prefer to lead or to follow?
It depends if I think I know what is going on.

8) Please describe your playing style, both as scum and as town.
As town, I try to be fairly analytic. I don't think I am very good at provoking people to test their reactions yet. I can't give a good description of my play as scum, but I think as scum I'd probably try pushing townie lynches whenever possible, and fake scum hunt as best as I can.
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Parama, how did you see Nathanael's role pm?

That asked, I think this line of inquiry concerning the colours of people role pm's should be dropped soon because it has a potential to out PRs.

[Zdenek]

Vote Parama

Newbie baiting is as scummy as anything that has happened so far. I also do not like the conversation about the role pm's.

Nocase's vote on HD reads as a chainsaw defence of Parama to me, so if Parama ever flips scum, it will be something to consider.

[Zdenek]

As referring to my earlier post, one does not need permission when defacing names as these names are not true names, they are a mere reflection of one's inner wants and desires and fancies which can be distorted and diluted by other people surrounding you as much as by someone distorting one's name

Why did you post this?

[Zdenek]

Because that's my play style

I'll be more precise, what are you trying to accomplish?

[Zdenek]

However this wordless sticky-figure man failed to show what you guys were suppost to perceive yourselves; the game barely started, but the way it's going seem like we have a team already, and that would be Netopalis-Nathanael(with a possibility of horrordude going into this team).
...
This happened as soon as horror voted Parama. That usually would sign teaming, but considering Parama reaction to Nocase actions, i would say unlikely.

I think you are probably seeing connections that aren't actually there or at least ones that would arise at the start of any game between players that are not necessarily of the same alignment. Also, my impression is that your choice of which ones to heed and which to dismiss is completely arbitrary.

[Zdenek]

By making random posts at the start of the game I hope to create some relaxed banter within which scum may slip up - I also like watching people's reactions to random posts, they often cannot deal with them and pass them off as scummy distractions

So, as town, you write random posts that people will pass off of as scummy distractions? I can't see how you could hope to use posts that you think others will ignore to gauge their reactions.

I view this as either an attempt to create wifom (if he is writing posts that seem like scummy distractions then he isn't scum) or simply as a way to discourage people from paying attention to him in case he does something scummy. Either way, I don't like it.

Unvote
Vote slowsilver

[Zdenek]

the fact that there is so much discussion about them proves that they aren't just ignored.

Then why did you first emphasize that people might pass them off as scummy distractions?

slowsilver on Nexus:

You are just regurgitating what others are writing about me

This part of your argument is ridiculous. One shouldn't have to come up with an original argument if there is already a case out there that they agree with.

[Zdenek]

zdenek, why are you defending nexus before he has the chance to defend himself?

I was attacking slowsilver's argument, not defending Nexus. I think the case on Nexus for appeasing and backtracking is fine.

[Zdenek]

so the fact that his argument is (debatably) illogical means he's more likely to be scum?

At that point, I just wanted to point out the flaw in his logic.

The reason I think slowsilver is scum is that he made those overly intellectual posts concerning Parama's actions. When I questioned him about them he obliquely justified them as part of his play style. I think this is scummy because he easily could have just been straight forward about them. Then he said that people often pass of his posts as scummy distractions, and then he said that he did it to generate conversation. These seem like contradictory motivations to me.

Now he writes,

I meant 'try to pass them off,' the fact that they are just gives clues.

and I have no idea what that means.

[Zdenek]

Mitsu, you aren't voting because there isn't enough on any side to get a lynch? If everyone used that logic, we'd never vote anyone.

My impression is that BV3 is just interested in pushing wagons because the person who he thinks has said the scummiest thing so far is not isn't in his top two and his top two are both people with votes on them. I too am interested to hear his explanation.

[Zdenek]

THE SHOT WAS FAKE
THAT YOU CONTINUE TO BELIEVE IT IMPLIES THAT YOU'RE SCUM WHO ASSUMES HE'S TELLING THE TRUTH

I know it is fake.
I made post 152 before I knew that it was fake, since I missed page 7. I was reading page 6 and got to the bottom and didn't notice there was another page, so I posted my response. As soon as I saw the mod's and nocase's post, I posted my EBWOP.

For me, the problem is your initial reaction. The fact that you missed the next page is another matter. As Parama pointed out, you were obviously role-fishing, and suggesting a SK can be scummy because it distracts the town from scum hunting.

[Zdenek]

The wagon on Nate built up fast, and slowsilver jumped on without a word. I still like him as potential scum. Mitsu taking Nate to L-1 without a word is also scummy. Considering her participation so far and this vote, I'd be happy voting for her too.

Since Richard has entered the game, there has been a lot of bickering, which doesn't seem to be helping town. I am not as convinced as Parama that nocase is town. Yes he drew attention to himself with the fake kill, but his recent unvote is definite backtracking; he unvoted one person who he's been suspicious of while agreeing with another.

[Zdenek]

. . . um, how again is this suspect of me?

On it's own, it's not, but backtracking can be suspect, and my comment was part of a sentence about that.

Frankly I voted over to Nathanael in order to get some reads on people, as long as it didn't end in a lynch I was perfectly happy with it, if it did end in a lynch then Nat would be one of my suspected scum anyways. Along with Parama and Nexus. They all had a nice distancing fight with each other back there.

Are you trying to be intentionally vague? Are you saying that you voted Nat to get some reads on people along with Parama and Nexus, that you are suspicious of Nat, along with Parama and Nexus, that you are suspicious of Nate, Parama and Nexus or that you think Parama and Nexus had a distancing fight? Posts like this show that you don't really care whether people understand you or not.

Now, I am pretty sure that you meant that you are suspicious of Nat, Parama and Nexus, and that the "distancing fight" you were referring to was between Parama, nocase and Richard. Correct me if I am wrong, but assuming this, why are you referring to it as a distancing fight when you aren't suspicious of either nocase or Richard? I think you're just flinging spaghetti with statements like that.

[Zdenek]

V/LA: until Nov. 21

I should still have access and be able to post at least every other day. If it turns out to be much less than I expect, I'll ask to be replaced.

I still like my vote on slowsilver, but if I happen to come online and it looks like I'll need to change my vote to avoid a no lynch, I'll change it if it is on to someone who has a case on them I agree with.

V/LA noted

-Midnight

[Zdenek]

bv310, speaking of opportunistic hops onto wagons, how would you describe your votes on Nate and SS?

[Zdenek]

bv310, speaking of opportunistic hops onto wagons, how would you describe your votes on Nate and SS?

I'd describe my vote on Nate as a reaction to his extremely scummy reaction to the fake-daykill, and my vote on SS as the product of my catching up and being thoroughly unsatisfied with his posting and his wagon hops.

It's almost as though you read through your own ISO to figure that out.

[Zdenek]

I am still on V/LA and considering what is happening I will not be changing my vote so that things remain stable, but here are some comments (I'm slightly drunk at the moment, so I apologize for grammar and spelling mistakes, but I want to get this in before the end of the day):

I don't really understand why slowsilver's comment about Richard's stupidity suggests he is town. I think slowsilver could easily be scum and still say such things. Especially since as nocase points out, this was not an original idea. I also really hate slowsilver's hunt for connections between people. Especially in posts like 289, where he sees both a Parama-Nate scum team and doesn't like the momentum on Nate. If he actually thought Nate was scum, wouldn't he be happy with that wagon? Needless to say, I'd be happy with an SS lynch.

Kanashimi has essentially admitted to active lurking, and I'd say that his earlier unintentional admission to it is much stronger than HorrorDude's and I find it odd that nocase completely ignored it when in 274 he mentioned HD's lurking. More recently Kanashimi unvotes , appeasing nocase, and admits to lurking.

I think bv310 is pretty scummy: he's been opportunistic with his votes, and he's not scum hunting, but just hopping onto wagons.

[Zdenek]

Vote: BV310

Day one wagon pushng and not a heck of a lot else.

[Zdenek]

Vote: Nexus

or bv130

What happened to the theory that you were so sure of yesterday?

[Zdenek]

I'd like to add the following to the case against bv310. While I know that site meta discourages night kill speculation, nocase was pushing a bv310 lynching, so we shouldn't ignore the possibility that bv310 was trying to silence a voice against him. I replaced into a game where at the end the scum happily admitted that he killed off everyone who opposed him and knew he could get away with it because no one would talk about why people got killed at night. In his last post he out of the blue sheeps Parama completely.

I am pretty wary of Mitsu. She's not been helpful as town, she put Nat at L-1, and then quickhammered slowsilver. As far as judging people just by their actions goes, she would be a good lynch.

I won't be voting Nat today, unless something new comes up.

Here is the case on Nexus as I see it:

- appeasing/backtracking on Parama
- not reacting to the fake day kill
- his wagon vote on Nate
- his responses to Parama on the previous page leave me cold; they feel like scum giving up, but could be from frustrated town
- the scumslip Nat pointed out, but scum will usually be careful not to say such things, and frustrated town might

I still like my vote bv310, and I certainly like it enough to not put Nexus at L-1.

[Zdenek]

I'd like to add that regardless of Nexus' alignment, bv310's recent hesitation to vote could be interpreted as scum hesitating to bus or hesitating to vote for a town's person.

[Zdenek]

That's good enough for me. Nexus isn't arguing against the case on him and he's doing no scum hunting. I'm willing to hammer.

Nexus claim please.

[Zdenek]

ZDENEK. THAT IS THE WRONG WAY TO DO IT.
HE HAS HAD TIME TO CLAIM.
HE IS FRIKKIN' DUE FOR A PROD.
I MIGHT AS WELL LYNCH YOU NEXT BECAUSE YOUR POST SCREAMS "HI I'M NEXUS' SCUMBUDDY!!!!"

I see no reason why the Nexus situation warrants a change to the usual claiming protocol: claims at L-1 with a willing hammer.

preview edit: nexus just claimed VT.
I don't buy it as I see no reason for a VT to have pulled that vanishing act.

Vote: Nexus

[Zdenek]

There is no case on me. Nexus was scummy, and the fact he was avoiding the thread increased the likelihood he was scum and made me seriously doubt that he was frustrated town (which was the only thing that made me doubt the case against him). I could have seen a town PR stop posting after a wagon formed on him (like slowsilver did day one), but not a VT, which is why I asked for a claim.

[Zdenek]

Vote Parama

He started the game off by newbie baiting Nathanael.

He was certain of Nexus' scumminess too early.

His vote on me is profound bs.

Also, twilight was long and he had plenty of time to construct an argument against me. The fact that he didn't indicates that he wasn't worried about the nightkill which he would have been if he was town and actually thought that I was scum.

[Zdenek]

^This is OMGUS.

I was reaction testing Nath.
I have caught 2 scum by page 2 before btw.
A vote on scum is not bs.
BTW I never made a case on Nexus either.
And I actually PMed the mod saying I expected to get killed tonight, though you can't confirm this
You fail at PR hunting btw.

It is not OMGUS.

Your vote on me is bs.

Whatever explanations you have for your other actions, you haven't explained failing to make a convincing case against me in twilight. You should have been concerned enough about the nightkill to make one, but you didn't.

Why are you lying about making a case on Nexus?: appeasement, ignoring the vig kill and avoiding the thread were all things that you brought up.
_____________________________________________
Most of the points that you bring up in your post just reiterate arguments that I've already been in.

I thought that Slowsilver was making a bad argument, and I pointed it out. I think it's good to do that. I didn't know how Nexus would flip, so I didn't want defend him too much (to avoid exactly this situation).

Yes, the case on Nexus was strong, which is why I hammered when I was sure. I'd just pushed a wagon on the town cop and didn't want to lynch another power role. Maybe SS's vanishing act had nothing to do with his being a PR, but having just seen that sort of behaviour from a PR I wasn't about to rule it out.

I'd like to add that regardless of Nexus' alignment, bv310's recent hesitation to vote could be interpreted as scum hesitating to bus or hesitating to vote for a town's person.

Setting up a mislynch tomorrow after Nexus gets lynched, eh?

I was still pushing for bv310's lynching. Why are you so certain that it will be a mislynch?

Also, quickhammering your partner as scum is a good way to 1. try and get townie points while also 2. stopping the scumbuddy from saying anything dangerous.

I don't see why you are saying this. Isn't the fact that I didn't quickhammer one of your main points against me?

Town PRs would've claimed at L-2

Not necessarily and asking them to is flat-out role fishing.

[Zdenek]

I'd like to add that the points against me in Parama's 438 that I didn't address were blatant spaghetti flinging:

Oh look, guess who died N1.
...
This guy has a friggin' obsession with posts that mention Nexus.
...
This is what scum say when they're being suspected.
...
Yet you didn't hammer him when I requested it

1. nocase seemed mostly satisfied with my explanation for pointing out SS's bad reasoning.
2. What, we should avoid even talking about people on the grounds that they may flip scum? This is complete drivel.
3. It's what anyone would say when someone starts pushing for their lynch for no or bad reasons.
4. Not hammering at your request is not a scumtell.

[Zdenek]

Also, quickhammering your partner as scum is a good way to 1. try and get townie points while also 2. stopping the scumbuddy from saying anything dangerous.

Parama is accusing me of being scum because I didn't quickhammer Nexus, but here he also outlines a case against someone for quickhammering.

I think this suggests that he was planning to attack whoever hammered Nexus in whatever way it went happened. This is an obvious scum ploy to secure a mislynch.

[Zdenek]

Parama's 443 is ridiculous:

Yes, it is OMGUS.

You can't win an argument by repeating yourself.

My case heavily depended on a Nexus scumflip. As I just showed. You were obvious scum in the event of the likely Nexus scumflip.

You've never showed this, and you could have made a case under the assumption that Nexus flipped scum.

I never wall-o-text'd it up, which is what I consider "making a case".

Because people can't read the thread?

That wouldn't have been a quickhammer had you hammered before a claim. It would've been a hammer after 3 days of not posting.
Hammering immediately after the claim is definitely a quickhammer.

This is just foolish. Not waiting for a claim is practically what makes a quickhammer quick.

Again, already explained this.

Using a bad argument that relies on a poor definition of quickhammer is not an explanation.

Actually I attacked you before you hammered, so there goes your attack.

The point is that Parama would have attacked anyone who hammered, regardless of how it went down. The fact that he had a chance to attack me before hammering is just a coincidence because of how I chose to go about lynching Nexus.

Notice that now he is trying to use other people's meta to lynch me. Meta arguments are weak to begin with, and he's not even using mine.

[Zdenek]

I have a VC analysis that is a lot simpler, and very obvious:

Parama was bussing Nexus from the start.

The scum motivation is clear. He gets to hide on a wagon, and distort any VC analysis in his favour.

[Zdenek]

I have a VC analysis that is a lot simpler, and very obvious:

Parama was bussing Nexus from the start.

The scum motivation is clear. He gets to hide on a wagon, and distort any VC analysis in his favour.

and why is scum more likely to attack a scumbag than town?
after all his case against Nexus was not picked from air.

What I said in my previous post plus town-cred.

[Zdenek]

Zdenek: Because bussing a scumbuddy for 80% of the game including the entirety of D2 is better play than mislynching an easy target (MK).
Yeaaaah.
Zdenek, you're just jealous of my scumhunting skills and pissed that I caught you as well.

That would be wifom followed by an appeal to emotion.

[Zdenek]

Just a glance through Parama's wiki page should show everyone just how fond he is of bussing his scum partners.

Newbie 996
Mini 991
Mini 944

I'd also like to add that in his comments to Mafia 114 he points out that meta is useless, and here is is referencing another game with other players to try to get me lynched; he is using arguments that even he doesn't believe.

[Zdenek]

I'd like to add that in the newbie game he started bussing page three to get his buddy lynched day two.

[Zdenek]

I love how you've resorted to meta attacks, those are quite useless.

I hate to sound childish, but you started it.

[Zdenek]

I'm not giving examples from my own meta. I'm giving a similar experience in which this exact same thing happened IE retard attacking me after I pin the scum and the retard that attacked me was scum so I'm assuming the retard attacking me this game is also scum.

What you are describing is still meta.

[Zdenek]

Parama, would you willing to be tomorrow's lynch if we lynch Zdenek and he flips town?
Zdenek, would you be willing be take today's lynch if we lynch Parama tomorrow if you flip town?

No. If we lynch town today, we'll probably be in MYLO tomorrow, so we probably won't lynch, and after that chances are we will mass claim, in which case who is scum might become more clear.

[Zdenek]

how sure are you that Parama is scum?

As sure as I can be.

He's attacked me for hammering Nexus after asking for a claim and stated an argument that could be used against someone who didn't ask for a claim first. This makes me think he would have attacked anyone who hammered.

If he was town, he would have been worried about the night kill, and outlined a case against me under the assumption that Nexus flipped scum. He didn't, even though twilight was long and he had plenty of time.

He's argued against me using meta from another game and he's stated elsewhere that meta is useless, so he is trying to get me lynched using arguments that he doesn't believe.

Many of his arguments against me are completely irrational. I've pointed them out in my previous posts.

[Zdenek]

No, because Zdenek is still attacking me for BS reasons.

Oh the irony.

[Zdenek]

I'll claim. I'm a Firefighter. I protected Parama last night.

[Zdenek]

I'll claim. I'm a Firefighter. I protected Parama last night.

what's a firefighter?

I protect people from fires.

[Zdenek]

Holy crap, Zdenek is an arsonist. I was wondering about the different kill flavors but now it makes sense.

This rapid attempt to discredit me is scummy as hell.

[Zdenek]

I'll claim. I'm a Firefighter. I protected Parama last night.

what's a firefighter?

I protect people from fires.

huh? could you explain your role a little better?
could you paraphrase your role PM?

Trouble has come to your little town.
You are the Town Fireman. Choose one person each night to protect.
You win when there are no longer any threats to the town.
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I'd like everyone to look over Parama's play over the past day. I really can't see how anyone could still think that he's town after the things he's said.

[Zdenek]

If Zdenek's a firefighter and there is an SK out there, why has there been only 1 kill per night?

Perhaps good protections or both killers targeting the same person?

also, bv, tell me, why don't you believe it?

Because he has modded mafia games before.

Basically this. Parama knows exactly how much I value even playing fields in my setups (Hydra should show that). Giving a counterpoint to the firefighter (the SK) would be shockingly unfair towards him. Ergo, Zdenek is scum who saw the "burned alive" flavour and felt like he had a legitimate claim available there. Or he's the SK hoping for a CC so he can kill his counterpoint tonight. Either way, he needs more rope. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTJEeszxLvo

It would hardly be unfair to the arsonist, just look at how long it's taken for it to become clear that there is one, and adding a protective role helps make the game less swingy (I would guess).

[Zdenek]

Unrelated game post 'deleted'.

-Midnight

[Zdenek]

Mod: I've PMed you. Could you please remove the above post from this game.

[Zdenek]

@Zdenek: who did you target N1? how did you choose your targets?

Parama as well. I thought he was helping the town and was a good player to keep alive.

[Zdenek]

bah. I'll say what I think when the game is done.

[Zdenek]

I really think that the mod telling everyone I was lying was a bit much. Posting the rules would have been fine, but the statement afterward was ridiculous.