Newbie 1027: Trick or Treat! [Game Over]

[Thor665]

tl:dr - this entire commentary block is all about introducing myself as the IC, blathering about my duties, and offering a basic idea of some of the strategy of the RVS. If this interests you, please read on (especially if this is your first time playing here) if not, feel free to skip - my second post will be game oriented.

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Greetings,

I am Thor665 and I am the Inexperienced Challenged (IC) player of this group. What this means is first and foremost - I am here to play this game with you in a way that will show you what it is like to play on Mafiascum.net. I am here to win and should be treated as such.

My goals and the rules governing my actions are covered in this handy article: Being a good IC
That article is part of our amazing MafiaWiki System. I *highly* recommend this system as a good way to get your feet wet and to find out what a lot of the common abbreviations mean. There is a lot of play strategy discussed in there too. A lot of players consider that advice almost all outdated now. I don't recommend trying to run verbatim with anything there, but a lot of the basic advice is very good to at least be aware of as it can help you avoid blatant pitfalls as you become familiar with the game play here.

Now, as an IC I am here as a resource for you to ask questions of concerning game theory. I WILL NOT lie about game theory answers and will answer them to the best of my ability. I will also offer you the following quick pieces of advice;

1. Don't self vote. (there are really no points during a Newbie setup where this is a good idea, please avoid it however logical you may think it is)
2. This site frowns on lying if you are a vanilla town role. I strongly advise against lying if you have this role as usually it will only hurt town in the end.
3. It's a game - have fun.

We are now starting what is known as the RVS (random voting stage). We are in a low information period because scum already know who they are, and even have a rough idea of what power roles may or may not be in the game. It is now town's job to root them out. Because the start of the game leaves us with no information to start with generally the way to start is to begin voting and questioning other people to see if you can catch them doing something scummy (scummy actions being acts that a scum player is more likely to do then a town player).

[Thor665]

First - Bazz's questions, I shall reply to all of them that matter.

1. Yes
4. In a newbie game? Yes.

Second;

@@Vote:parknourie

Double assaulting a random vote is odd, bothering to dictate proper voting styles when he also apparently didn't read the rules suggests he's a sloppy player trying to pass himself off as efficient (though I'll agree that the mod's method is silly, but, hey, mod's prerogative I suppose).

Also, conditional town read on Guderian that I will clarify my thoughts on after he responds to Bazz's questions.

Sorry you feel that way -- if it becomes a problem, I'm open to changing, but I have a history of missing votes and just wanted to try it out. If you'd like to talk to me moreso privately about my motivations for some of my more odd modding decisions, go for it. I do my best to be open. ~KittyMo[/darkblue]

[Thor665]

I will point out for the benefit of the newer players that it is indeed quite a weird method and you probably won't see it that much. That said, this is one of the basic reasons behind always reading the rules - all the mods try to be different and special snowflakes

[Thor665]

@Guderian - *conditional* town read. And I can have a read that fast because I have an awesomely manly beard.

Also you just killed it. You're back to null now.

I'll explain the tell after everyone has voted/posted a bit as it can still give me some useful information. Feel free to remind me if I forget.

[Thor665]

I'll confirm my parknourie suspicions now. Definitely the most scummy player here thus far. RVS is over for me and the vote is now serious.

[Thor665]

So for the rest of the class please:

I'll make sure to put on my teacher's spectacles, they make me smarter.

Thor, why is parknourie disliking your playstyle scummy?

Please quote where I said this and then I'll answer.

Considering that pk is not the only one to miss [the voting rules], how does that make him scummy??

Firstly, that was my RVS stage of voting for him - it made him just as scummy as someone being a Norse god as opposed to a Greek one. If you're going to comment on needing much logic behind RVS votes we'll be here a while.

Secondly, the basic logic of the scumminess at that stage was already described in the post I voted him in when I explained why I saw that action as scummy - do you not understand what I wrote there as reasoning? Try to narrow me in to where I lost you and I'll help, otherwise all I can do is restate what I said at that point.

Also, for the rest of the class

When three players have yet to post. \

Why do you think someone acting scummy has *anything* to do with other people's actions that haven't happened yet? You're being silly.

[Thor665]

Greetings Maniamax.

First, you botched the vote method, though maybe the mod will take pity on you. But, officially, that vote doesn't count as you need a Vote: between the ampersands and the name of who you're voting.
Second, I'm super excited you're bandwagoning on to my case even though you didn't address it at all. Why did you choose Guderian to "random" vote and what do you think of the player (me0 who has now clamed to be voting Guderian for non-random reasons and how did/didn't that affect your choice to "randomly" vote Guderian?

[Thor665]

Aw shucks, I meant to vote for someone with not votes

Why? Also, this proves your vote isn't random as you're automatically ruling out voting for some players already - what makes them more town and/or how does your strategy of not voting for someone already with a vote on them help town?

Am I allowed to change it or does it forfeit my vote?

You now are legally obligated to vote the same way i do for the rest of the game.

No, you can change your vote as often as you deem needed and there is no limitation on who you can vote for.
Look at some other games on this site if the voting method confuses you - every single one in the newbie forum will operate with the same rules for votes as here. This game is only different in the format of the vote, the rules are the same.

[Thor665]

Greetings Maniamax.

First, you botched the vote method, though maybe the mod will take pity on you. But, officially, that vote doesn't count as you need a Vote: between the ampersands and the name of who you're voting.
Second, I'm super excited you're bandwagoning on to my case even though you didn't address it at all. Why did you choose Guderian to "random" vote and what do you think of the player (me0 who has now clamed to be voting Guderian for non-random reasons and how did/didn't that affect your choice to "randomly" vote Guderian?

Also, I was wrong in the above post and mixed up parknourie and Guderian - so Maniamax is indeed attempting to vote someone who wasn't being voted for.

My current question to him stands and is applicable.

[Thor665]

Great. Now I have an IC on my Smurf.
Thor hasn't seen everyone's post yet (since they actually didn't post anything) and goes for one of the two SEs in this game which is me.

How does you being an SE and not everyone in the game posting yet have any bearing on whether or not you are scum?

Random voting stage is over? I didn't know that. Do you run this show Thor? It is very discomforting (as I have siad before) to see you treating yourself as the top-and-the-best player in this game.

Please quote where I said RVS is over (you'll note I said "for me" when I did so, which means if you're still in RVS more power to you, I'm not)
Also, when did I become pompously full of myself? You're "discomforted" by this but I don't think I've even said or implied that everyone should follow everything I say because I'm the IC, nor have I declared any of my cases superior because I have "super powered IC hyper-battle senses" - where are you getting this from? Please provide the quote and explain.

Pretty much the rest of your post is you deciding that either an SE or IC *has* to be scum with a newbie (a false premise) and also apparently getting a firm read on me being frustrated about not being scum (which is weird, because I *hate* being scum) and also acting bewildered I can get a read on you as scum even though apparently you can read me enough to realize I'm immensely frustrated that I'm not scum and want to punish you because of it. ( whut?)

I'm especially excited how you say that I'm not scum. (hence, town)
Am frustrated because I'm not scum. (hence, town)
And am trying to "frame" you (which is something scum would do, not town)
Color me confused.
I think that's a shade of fuchsia.

[Thor665]

So, you're settling on calling me scum?
And what is my attitude overtaking? My previously town attitude?

[Thor665]

Do people fight like you two in real games?

Never play with Benmage.
"Fighting" generates emotional responses and reactions. Emotional responses and reactions can cause errors in fake scummy play or provide reassurance of townish play. Many people on site use various methods to provoke those sorts of responses in order to scumhunt and get reads on other characters.

What you're seeing from me is actually a pretty mild amount of pressure compared to many players on site (at least insomuch as I tend not to cuss, use all caps, or blatantly insult your ability to play the game). Just as a basic IC note I will point out how my RVS vote has now generated reactions from people, whereas many of the other RVS votes did not - the reason for this is the pressure behind my vote, and that is the sort of thing that helps people begin to spot scum. You'll eventually learn your own style of pressure for the game...or, I dunno, get really good at spotting town players and just sheep them - though in its own way that's pressure too.

Meh, I won't say anything else in fear of taking a side.

Take a side, it helps reads.
What do you think of my pressure and how I'm applying it?
What do you think of the way park is replying to it?
What do you think about andrew94 chiding you for not taking a side while also offering a *very* superficial analysis of our behaviors?

@andrew - greetings, if you're the cop in this game please remember to claim at L-1
If you can respond to the questions I asked Huntman as well, that would be ace.

[Thor665]

Aw shucks, I meant to vote for someone with not votes

Why? Also, this proves your vote isn't random as you're automatically ruling out voting for some players already - what makes them more town and/or how does your strategy of not voting for someone already with a vote on them help town?

@Maniamax - you missed/dodged the questions in this post. I would like to hear them answered.

[Thor665]

Thor, i asked you to explain your conditional town read on me (which you have now revoked under a little pressure). that strike me as a little weird.

I specifically said I'd explain it - just not right away.
Do you think it's weird I wouldn't explain it right away, or do you think it's weird I no longer had the town read on you?

[Thor665]

@Guderian - you've called a couple of things "weird" now. Does "weird" = scummy or does "weird" = 'gosh it's unusual to see the play you guys are doing.
If it's the latter - is their a point to mentioning it at all?
If it's the former why is your current random vote superior to all these "weird" tells you're getting?

By the way, now that everyone has posted a few times here's the tell I used for your conditional town read and also the reason I didn't say it immediately, to whit;

In newbie games the IC is the "scary" player because of mysterious title powers that suggest he's a superior scumhunting war machine
Generally newbie scum tend to want to avoid immediate antagonistic relations with the IC - and therefore tend not to vote him if it's their first or near first experience playing the game.
You voted for me in RVS right out of the gate - possible town read.
Waited for you to answer questions, and found out that you had played many games - removal of town read as the tell is no longer applicable to you.
Didn't explicitly mention it in order to still be able to use the tell on other players as they entered the game and floundered around with their initial RVS votes.

@IO_SAMBO - you are aware these games tend to last around a month, yes?
Also, what do you think about Maniamax - do you believe he's attempting to avoid giving his opinion on other players?

[Thor665]

@thor, i have to admit, your statement of voting the IC = town tell, followed by the many games = know this strategy = no loonger town tell. to be kinda weird. can u link me any previous games that feature this? i have to make sure that your not just bullSmurfing a read out of nowhere.

You're actually dramatically misunderstanding the thrust of the tell here.
It has nothing to do with strategy or learning it.
It's a simple psychological tell that is only applicable for newer players.

I do believe I used the exact same tell in the ongoing game I replaced into which you were in. I was town then, as you should know. My meta accounts for my use of this tell whether or not other players use it is immaterial. If you think I'm faking the read then vote me because I would be scum.

[Thor665]

I find just asking the question outright to be a quicker and easier means to elicit commentary.

What are your current thoughts on andrew, you expressed that his actions were "suspicious" but he has since explained them. What is your reaction to that explanation?

[Thor665]

thor, is there any other non-on going games where you have used this tell?

No.

[Thor665]

@Huntman - The truth is that as you play the game you'll end up developing your own scum hunting style. Pretty much everyone does it differently and it really does take reading/playing games to learn what you'll start noticing as tells. The best and most basic advice is - say what you're thinking, and never get too locked down in preconceptions. If you can master that you'll already be leaps and bounds ahead of a lot of other players of this game. I actually disagree about the way you're reading Maniamax, but can see where you're coming from. The sad truth is pretty much every tell is pretty subjective and needs to be assessed on a case by case basis.

I'm still null on Mania, but if I can get a read on Guderian I'll probably have a more solid feel there.

Still think park is the strongest scummer thus far.

@mothrax - Huntman is town, get your vote off of him, please.

[Thor665]

Rather than telling other people to do things you would do, why don't you try to convince them in a way that they can actually see and understand your purpose?

In regards to my town read on Huntman?
The reason is - Huntman is looking like lost newbie player and the *first* action he takes when trying to respond to my demands for reads on players is to explain why we should *clear* a player of suspicion. That's just not a scum mindset, especially not for a player who isn't even under a lot of pressure. Only way I see Huntmanscum at this stage is if Mania is his buddy.

Also, the above is pretty much ironing out my parknourie as scum feeling. Just look at how he's responded to me;
1. Calls me town for voting him (!?!)
2. Presents that really odd 'Thor is town who is angry he's not scum' deal (he's really darn sure I'm not scum, isn't he? I have no idea why, I've been townie, but I'm hardly super townie.)
3. Asks for clarification of my town read on Huntman.
4. Has yet to ask question 1 about my case on him...seriously, he hasn't even questioned why I have such a strong scum read on him yet. Can we say guilty conscience?

3 wouldn't be so exciting without 4, of course. Clearly he does understand the concept of explaining reads, he just doesn't want to hear the scum case on himself.

[Thor665]

You're scum because of reasons I actually expounded on in the post you're quoting, you just keep reinforcing the tells I'm getting from you. You went into appease mode (Thor, you're town) <--this is you calling me town because I voted you, most people tend to get a scum vibe from people who vote them, and with no case explained I have no idea why you had town reads on me while I was voting you. Oh...wait, it was because you knew the case was legit, right? You didn't ever ask me about the case on you and actually seemed to accept it as legitimate very quickly (which is just not a town mindset). Also, when you realized you'd incorrectly done your random vote you changed it to a different player without any explanation as to why. Also, you called me out with a gut read of some sort while still maintaining your random vote on your new target. None of that looks very town-like, hence you're scum.

What were the "elaborative" reasons for calling me town? I'm pretty sure they don't exist. But you and I do both know I'm town, and I'm the only one who knows it because of reading my role PM.

The repetition of points were points you've never addressed, so why not toss them out again. plus there's a lot of new stuff you avoided as well. Not that it's a scumtell for that, but I don't get why you're mentioning that I'm repeating points I've already made - that's a normal thing to do.

[Thor665]

Hope she's doing okay.

Now that you're here would you like to weigh in on some of what has already happened.
Also, I've specifically made a request to you as regards your current vote.

[Thor665]

This Town's too small for me and you both. That's a Fact.

Why so serious?
If we shouldn't lynch you - who should we lynch? Other then you saying I'm town I'm not sure if I've noticed you particularly scumhunting anyone or pointing out any scummy acts by other players.

[Thor665]

I like andrew's post except that Huntman is town.
I'm a bit reversed on the Mania vs. park angle then andrew is and agree that Guderian is an odd part of that equation.

Andrew is town for today - let's get some more discussion going. I'm sure I've got a couple unanswered questions flinging around out there.

@Huntman - who do you think is the scummiest player here currently and why? Please note, the only "wrong" answer to this question is to say you don't have an opinion. If for some insane reason you don't have an opinion then I expect your next post to contain a question or two for about 1-3 different players in order to help you get an opinion on them.

[Thor665]

now i have to ask you a question;
what if all players in ur games are newbie and they all do the same thing
what if hunt, is in fact, a legendary player who has created an alt

Occam's Razor

@park - no.
Also, do you disagree with andrew's conclusions about your playstyle?
While we're at it, how does that reflect on your conclusions about my playstyle when I'm not scum?

[Thor665]

If your answer to why my "free pass" (I call it a town tell) isn't a good idea is because he *might* be an experienced player working under an alt and choosing to play in a newbie game as a newbie (which isn't allowed and means he'd be lying to the list mod) then I believe Occam's Razor very much applies.

[Thor665]

@parknourie - why aren't you voting for mothrax?

@mothrax - there is no contradiction in my posting. Just because something isn't very scummy doesn't mean I can't explain how I find it scummy.
For someone who is very serious about not sheeping you seem to have not only followed my unvote request, but then immediately jumped on the wagon I'm selling. Methinks you doth protest too much, thoughts?

Also, I'd love everyone to get off the soft-claim bit from park. It wasn't a soft claim other then a claim of "I'm town and it hurts town to lynch town" stop being silly.

[Thor665]

i thought ICs are supposed to say 'hey slow down, we got 2 more weeks, no need lynch so fast' - where did that go thor.

Show me where I've called for slowing down anytime on site in the past six months. I actually like an aggressive first day and I honestly don't see any problems with someone being at L-1 on page 5. Hammering on page 5 is a different story - but that's not where we're at.

and park should not claim unless someone threatens with a hammer

I agree.

[Thor665]

And I meant that - no, ICs aren't "meant" to do that and this particular IC decidedly doesn't believe it either. What don't you understand?

[Thor665]

in newbie 971 the IC that didnt do anything to stop day 1 L1 at 5 pages i think? turmed out to be scum

Are you advancing a scumtell on me, or are you debating what an IC's job is?
There is nothing in the 'Being a Good IC' article that obligates me to encourage players to slow down. So you're wrong about the job part.
If you're using it as a scumtell...::shrug::...okay? I did do what you're saying I did, and I disagree with it being scummy. Move beyond the pedantic aspect and advance the case or drop the topic because you're not going anywhere with it and I already admitted to doing the tell. (and couldn't lie about it in any case)

You said it was an RVS vote, but in the same post you gave reasons for voting him. It isn't an RVS vote If you give real reasoning.

All votes have reason.
RVS does mean random voting.
But what the RVS stage really is is low information voting.
I think you are mistaking "real" reasons for a vote with "good" reasons for a vote.
Also, you missed something;

For someone who is very serious about not sheeping you seem to have not only followed my unvote request, but then immediately jumped on the wagon I'm selling. Methinks you doth protest too much, thoughts?

[Thor665]

Pedantic = overly concerned with a narrow field/topic.

You seemed too focused on trying to get me to admit I should have tried to slow down the game - and I was being quite seriously open that this was not the case and that I didn't want us slowed down at this juncture. Therefore you'd already "caught" me in the tell so I was confused why you kept asking about it.

[Thor665]

Newbies are all insane caffeine addicted ninja on crack - there is little point in worrying about "what ifs" with them because who knows what they can do. You pretty much have to roll with it as it happens.

I like aggressive days because, especially with newbies, if you *always* go to deadline they get two wrong impressions;
1. That you always should go to deadline - which is very much not true.
2. That the game is slow and boring and they don't like it and it's not really needed to check in/comment on it. Which leads to long meandering games with a lot of flake outs.

Day 1 (and 2-20) only needs to last long enough for you to get reads on people, feel you have a fair number of scum/town suspects, and to arrange for a lynch. No more, no less.

[Thor665]

@ Thor - Why would you ask me something like "Why don't you vote Mothrax?"? Did you? Did Anyone? With what reason except for his jump on the popular wagon?

Let me break it down for you.
You say you are town.
You say I am town and am voting you for 2 reasons;
1. Because I am not scum
2. Because obviously one hlaf of the scum team will be either an IC or an SE and I know it's not me.

You're an SE.
I'm an IC.
You think/know we're both town.
Who does that leave as the obvious scum? The other SE. Mothrax. Why, by your logic, are you not voting him? He has to be scum, right?

[Thor665]

Wooosh!

Park's current case is light years better then his old conclusions. I'm still pretty worried, he's either exceedingly obtuse in his reads or is indeed scum who is kinda desperately seeking an escape from the awkward location he's in. I'm not sure how clear I am on that part (though I am in a mild tiff that myself and (I think) andrew pointed out how scum selection was done randomly and it takes bloody Bazz to make him notice it - what's up with that?)

@@Unvote: parknourie

I want to hear a bit more from Sambo and mothrax before we get a hammer. I'd also love to see BAZZ get a vote into play.

A few questions:

@ Thor:
1) Is/was there a specific reason you didn’t answer my questions 2 & 3?
2) Do you think everything posted on the thread should be directly game related?
3) Could you elaborate on the ‘Yes’ in answer to question 4.

1. Is there was there any reason I should need to? Heck, one of them is answered in my user profile. What's next, curiosity about my gender?
2. No. Do you think all non-game related questions need to be answered?
3. There is a link in every post to that player's Wiki page. I fill mine out pretty well (though I am a few games behind). Huntman was able to find, reference, and even link to it this game. So if you're super curious about how awesome/terrible I am at the game you can go there.

^^^
Does any of this help you clarify your null read on me?
If the answer is no, then why are these questions important enough to ask? If you just want to be friendly with me stick to making jokes or something and I'll occasionally post a laughing smilie to share my joy.
If the answer is yes, I'd love to hear the logic behind it.

Oh, and I didn't explain Occam's Razor because it's not a term unique to the game of mafia and it's not unreasonable of me to expect people to either understand it already or ask about it if confused. As far as the IC needing to be passive in your mindset? Fine - but your mindset is incorrect for how IC's play, remember in my first post, I said I was here to win the game, and that is true. I'm not just here to offer definitions and generic advice. I'm here to play the game and be available to answer questions or provide clarity if I think it's needed (I also do a review of everyone post game, but that's something I do because I think it helps, not because it's part of any official duties I have).

[Thor665]

Quick Question, what is the supposed or designated role for ICs on this site?

Actually I covered that in my intro post. here it is again for you.

My goals and the rules governing my actions are covered in this handy article: Being a good IC

I think Guderian is now my number two suspect, that was an odd post set.
As usual for newbies I'm in everyone's connections are based off of interactions with me. What this really says is everyone else needs to be willing to make a couple stronger statements and attach their names to them (though i do like being the center of attention, it makes me feel pretty)
Also, Guderian - you haven't actually unvoted at this stage. @@ <--hint

[Thor665]

@ Thor. you mention i am your number two suspect. Who, pray chance, is your number one.

Park. Who did you think it was?

And what specific part of my post do you object to?

When I figure that out for myself I'll say.

And as to my question, may it should have been 'do you think you are being and have been a good ic so far?'.

Isn't that a bit like asking someone if they think they sound dumb?

I don't think I'm doing a bad job otherwise I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing. As to the overall effectiveness of me as an IC I would think you'd need to look at all the other ICs, figure out criteria to gauge us on, and then figure out who falls higher on the scale. If you think I'm doing a bad job as an IC then feel free to approach me after the game with suggestions for improvement, and if you think I'm terrible and a bad influence to all the new players' fun/education then you should contact the mod of this game with your concerns immediately so I could be replaced.

[Thor665]

Do you think It would be fair to say that if you were scum as an IC, forcing an aggressive lynch on day 1 with a town full of several newer players would benefit you?

My radar detects a heavily loaded question.
My basic answer is 'yes'.
The complicated and more honest answer is 'depends'

@andrew - emotional responses are not the only way to get tells on someone, and personally I tend to feel certain emotional responses can both be faked and also possibly offer false reads in any case.
And for the record - though I'm not sure I agree with anything else he's said - mothrax is correct that your logic behind clearing park is hardly a home run and your case on Maniamax is really just a basic tell and not a home run.

What's your case on Guderian at the moment? That he lied about not seeing the preview posts? (if it's something else please clue me in)
...okay, let's presume he *did* lie - what was the big scum advantage to doing so? What advantage did he get? If there's no real advantage for scum then whether or not he lied it is an equal chance of being scum or town and the lie was for personal reasons to not look stupid - which isn't scummy, it's just vain.

[Thor665]

Okay, I see where you're coming from. Objection withdrawn.

[Thor665]

@ whom ever it may concern, can we prod io_sambio or at least get a message out to him to post?

The usual method is to make sure you bold all requests to the mod - he's actually already within her stated prod range but I'll go ahead and do this one for you as a freebie. Plus it will allow me to make a joke at the mod's expense by ampersanding for great justice

@@Mod: Request prod on IO_SAMBO_OI, he looks to be a pretty obvious flake@@

[Thor665]

tl:dr - a dancing of rudeness and viability of questions with BAZZ - it's all boring except probably to him.
Also, a question for BAZZ and for Hunt
------------------------------------------------------------

I’m old fashioned and feel personally obliged to answer any question asked of me

I'm older fashioned - where it can be considered rude to ask certain people certain questions and a man should not be in a room with a lady unescorted who isn't his wife. Manners are subjective, and let me assure you that there is no entry in any Big Book of Manners about being obligated to answer a question.

reads can be built of more than directly game related posts. Whilst I do not claim to be an expert, a lot can be shown by a psychological analysis of someone, and non game related posts can aid this as much (if not more) than game related ones.

Mmmm, I disagree. When you ask scum something they don't need to lie about it allows them to post stuff with 100% safety in how they answer it. The best I think you can hope for is to catch them lying about policy and game related questions (though I think even that is hard) and those are the questions I answered. Unless you seriously think you'd learn something by me telling you where my user name came from or where I live...

The ‘yes’ I was asking you to elaborate on was regarding my ‘lynch all liars’ question, not the ‘have you played mafia before’ one.

I thought I did expand on it insomuch as I already said I supported it in Newbies and not in regular games. There is no point where a newbie game should involve lying as a strategic advantage for town (or if there is I have yet to see it).

I'm trying to establish a playstyle that works for me, which I'm sure you can understand (even if it does vary from your aggressive style ).

That is awesome and I support it - I'm just pointing out why I feel you're wasting your time with most of those questions. i have no issue with questions as a game opener and see it as a good styalistic choice regardless of how aggressive/reserved of a player you choose to be. The important thing is to have questions that help you in the game. I don't think you have that optimized yet.

What's your read on mothrax?
---------------------------------------------------------------
@Hunt - Andrew is town. He's aggressively scumhunting, being loud and proud of beliefs, and making maneuvers that are not optimal for scum. He's a pretty solid town read for me. ...his cases are pretty weak though

What are your thoughts on Guderian?

[Thor665]

@andrew/parknourie - could one of you provide me some links to a couple of previous parknourie games? Thank you.

[Thor665]

It's not so much the single unvote though (however much andrew is harping on it) the point is that Guderian has a traceable history of trailing my moves this game.

The only question is if you think he's doing this because he's also experienced like me and we are picking up on the same ebb and flow of the game.
or
He's doing it to try to go with the flow of where he thinks a lynch is likely to be.

I still can't put my finger directly on it. But something is twigging me odd about his actions.
I'm also starting to ease back from actually wanting park lynched - looking at his other games he does look like a derpy-da-doo-dah sort of player and that does account for a fair bit of his actions that I felt were scummy today. I'm not strongly against this kill yet, as I think it's dangerous to town to allow park to get anywhere near lylo, but at the same time I'm starting to think andrew was correct about pegging him as town.

BAZZ is trying to stay aloof, which is still a null tell for me.
We still need to see Sambo a bit, as I have no read on that slot yet.
I need to go look at Mania again and see where I feel he falls.

I'll manage to read up sometime Saturday I suspect, I'll probably even manage to clarify my position between Guderian/park at that time. We also need to get a little out of the Sambo slot prior to lynch unless we want to have to deal with a total null read at the start of Day 2.

[Thor665]

most scummy:
1. maniamax

reasons stated

as town my only weapon is my vote and I feel I need to use it now to create some pressure and elicit some response from mania who I see as rather like a limp fish so far in this game.

That's the extent of the case?
I'm not sure I'd make fun of my case on you if that's the situation.

My favorite part of Guderian's post is how I'm scummy for not "considering other options", but his major town tell is the guy I've been telling everyone is town. ::sadface:: Last I checked removing mislynches was pretty darn effective town play.

@park - 2 questions.
1. Have you ever played a game as scum, and if so can you link it?
2. Read on Guderian?

[Thor665]

Greetings and welcome.

Please read up and offer your take on the players. I personally want your opinion on parknourie.

[Thor665]

tl:dr

I voted for Guderian. Want him or chkflip lynched today.
Answered Hunt about a case on Guderian.
Did a boring IC bit with BAZZ explaining how his lack of voting is anti-town (yes, that is different from scummy). If he doesn't put down a vote by Tuesday I'll probably be willing to lynch him as well if people are still debating between parknourie/Guderian.

============================================================================

@Thor:

I agree with Gude, we need more concrete evidence from you on his scum case, I'm looking forward to see what you have to say in your next post. Try and include more examples of him trailing your moves and (if applicable) explanations of the scuminess of each action.

I personally think 'concrete' and 'Day 1 case' are antonyms and would challenge you to find me the newbie that contains one.
In the very post you ask this you dithered around and called him scummy in some ways yourself.
The case will never be concrete, nor will I ever claim it was.

I do see his following of me as suspicious.
I do find the way I and park are almost gallivanting up and down his town/scum scale as suspicious.
I do find his repeated commentary about how he's busy, and will get back with more, and just needs to see a little bit more info all while failing to really set himself on any opinion yet as suspicious.
I do find the maneuverings of chkflip to be suspicious in conjunction with Guderian's relationship with that slot.
I want to lynch either Guderian or chkflip today.

@@Vote: Guderian

=============================================================================

You'll notice that in the game I just finished, I made it through the whole game and only voted once.

I hope you were scum, as otherwise you were not helping town at all.
Lack of votes makes it harder to track your thought process - which makes it harder to decide if you're town/scum.
If you're town, your lack of a vote increases the percentage strength of each scum player's vote, making their team more powerful.
By not voting you are effectively taking yourself out of the responsibility loop - this is bad because first it makes you look scummy (which can distract town from finding real scum) and second it removes your ability as town to help ensure scum are lynched.

Please change your meta.
Minimal voting is fine.
One vote a day and no changes is functional.
One vote a game? I would have been trying to lynch you for that. (unless I was scum, because then I would have *loved* you and wanted you to last till at least the day before lylo for an easy mislynch option)

[Thor665]

i also would like to give chkflip the reward of the most fail bussing attempt i have ever seen

You might actually be onto something there - that is part of my current mindset as well.
Still, for a partner I might have expected him to kick at the parknourie thing a bit longer which is why I vaguely prefer Guderian.

[Thor665]

Well, no actually, but if the site hadn't flipped out I would have and it was certainly up and visible when I reloaded the thread and posted.

[Thor665]

I'm actually always amused that people will make a case on somebody off of 1-2 posts on Page 20 but act like it's unreasonable to do the same on Page 3.

@chkflip - You come in and immediately leap on the biggest wagon (park)
Okay, this is not unreasonable - I asked you to look at him, you read up, you declared him your top suspect, everything is hunky-dory in the world.
Then a bunch of people go "blaargh! How dare you leap on biggest wagon, whassup wit dat!?!"
Your reply is to meekly defend yourself and then shift your vote onto the 2nd biggest wagon.

^^^
You see *nothing* suspicious or scummy there?

The buddy connection comes from 2 things, first is Guderian's constant demanding of your slot to start posting (while commenting not at all at the other lurkers). I'll admit the other lurkers had posted more recently then you, but the sort of person who screams about a missing player tends to dislike all lurking - Guderian never really seemed to.
Then, you are now in the game, hop on the biggest wagon that isn't Guderian and try to sell it. Nobody buys. Suddenly you find Guderian scummy.

To be honest, the only thing making me vote Guderian over you is that despite all your scummy play I'm still thinking I might be reading it wrong and I want to see what else you will do.

[Thor665]

Meek has to do with the attitude and duration, not the length of a given post. You didn't leave me feeling like you believed in your park vote particularly.

[Thor665]

Pehaps you have been shadowing me?

I'm sorry, did you do those things first so that I could have followed? No? Okay then.

2. should i be sorry for considering you scum? no. but your apparent forced cases at times and overlooking some posts I make rings off a few bells.

Bell ringing aside, you ignored the parknourie dancing part and you apparently feel I'm scummy even though up until my vote on you we've been voting the exact same way and you don't understand why I think it's odd you find me scummy?

4. it cant be bussing since im not scum, but his cases are forced.

I agree on the latter.

5. thats your prerogative and your thoughts. what happened to parknourie however?

As I indicated earlier I was beginning to believe he was town - as you share this belief I don't think it should surprise you I came to the same conclusion.

and while you comment on me linking with parknourie, I would like to point out you and andrew. I dont think you have referenced him at all in this game, or made any serious attempts to look into him. The few posts I did make on him were ignored by you. why?

I've been calling him town for some time now.
I don't look too deep into my town reads on Day 1.

thor. I would like your case on me to be furthered if you believe in it. Please use quotes this time instead of simply points.

You're already discussing the points with me and seem to clearly understand where the thoughts are coming from - I don't understand why you need quotes.

and reading a little more through the rest of the thread shows some Smurfkissery from my point of view from chkflip to thor.

Very much agree here, already said as much too.

ooBAZZoo, at this point i dont even care if you vote for me, minimal voting is VERY anti town. even being careful with your vote doesnt warrant this. make a case, hold convictions and move forward.

maniamax hasnt posted at all in several days (4??) means he has faded from peoples memories.

@@mod request prod

Both of the above are good points.

[Thor665]

hmm my previous posts seem to be lack quotes. @ mod, would you mind fixing the quote business?

As a head's up, it happened because you left out the "'s around the names - quote="Thor665" not quote=Thor665

As I indicated earlier I was beginning to believe he was town - as you share this belief I don't think it should surprise you I came to the same conclusion.

the point is you are on my Smurf for unvoting parknourie when you feel the same way.

And I cleared him for reasons brought up by a player I think is town (andrew) and I am on your backside over it more for when and how you unvoted after me rather then the unvoting as a singular thing in and of itself. I (hubristically) felt that when I got off the wagon it certainly died to a large extent - I then feel your unvote was more strategic as you saw the wagon had died and that tends to suggest lack of belief in your vote in the first place. Home run super case of win? No. Viable and logical? Yes.

thats nice. why do you think [andrew] is town. I could bring up the point you made about lynching all liars in response to where i pointed out he lied twice. you seemed to of missed that.

Bring up the lying points again. $5 says you are calling them lies because you're saying one thing and he's saying the other. Those are unprovable lies to a third party and in any case are more of a disagreement of intent then a lie. But bring them on if they're something else.

I forget why I called him town, but I probably mentioned it when I did - feel free to iso me, I recall doing it right near when he replaced in.

So you can clearly lay out the case (using my own words) for others and myself to see. not doing so is just blowing hot air. implying i know what the case is doesn't help, I know what the case is. The problem is i don't think it actually is a case. Its just talk.

You'll disagree with my case whether or not I post quotes.
Therefore there is no need on my part.
If a third party wants the quotes of any part I'll do so. But not for you as you already know what I'm talking about.

do you think i am scum buddies with maniamax for asking for his prod?

No.

It seems that your case on me is tenuous at best based off a kernel of dislike about 'shadowing' built around page 4-5. People are accusing me of as many things such as
1. being scum with park
2. chk bussing his partner
3. scum with mania

and more. I clearly cant be all of these things at the same time.

And yet we have three scummy players and everyone can see connections back to you as the buddy.
You don't think that implies anything as to who the scummiest player in the game is?

And you built some of your case of me being away from the computer. Rather unfair considering I was, dont you think?

Presuming you were telling the truth - yes, that would be an unfair part of my case. Still, you posted a lot without actually saying anything during that period - and I do find that scummy.

[Thor665]

Thor, I know you are intelligent, but are refusing to see it (mafia or blindness?)

If I'm "refusing" to see, then I'm scum if I'm so intelligent I definitely would see "it".

Personally, as I new player to this site, It is rather unfair to attack me based on the mechanics of this site which I didnt understand.

Newbies are supposed to be a place for you to learn and discover these differences. What mechanic do you think we're running you up on that's so unfair?

2 andrew "lies"

The first one (saying he hadn't dinged you for tunneling) he admitted to the mistake - do you see a scummy agenda behind the mistake/lie?
The second one - his answer shows that he didn't see any impropriety there. Replace the word 'vote' with the word 'case' and everything he says makes sense. He even is admitting in the second post (where he is saying the "lie" about not unvoting Mania) that he unvoted Mania and FOSed him.
All you've shown is that he writes sloppily - you have not actually shown lies.

I want the case laid out because I believe it is bogus.

And, again, you've said you understand the case and (again) I understand you believe it is bogus already. I cannot imagine that if I go and dig up a couple of quotes that suddenly you'd go "ah, of course, I *am* scummy - my bad" so...why should I bother? You're being silly.

Thor, I can easily try and fabricate connections between you and others as well. But try and find the real connections.

Buh?

I like Maniamax's play, good alternate wagon to get up and rolling.

@park - what's the case for mothrax = scum again? Sitting on a vote like that and not actively pushing the player as scummy is not helping anyone.

[Thor665]

why are u digging up old worms in an attempt to discredit me

Best scumtell on andrew this game.
Still not willing to lynch him today.

[Thor665]

Tunneling = focusing yourself on one player to the exclusion of all others.

[Thor665]

@andrew - nobody fails to believe that the preview edit feature exists. Not even Guderian. He only debates whether or not he used it to see a given post. Please stop spamming about its existence.

[Thor665]

thor, I want quotes so you can prove I am guilty with my own words. If I was making a case on you I would expect you to do the same.

Very well.
Which points of my case are you *denying* happened?
I'll post relevant quotes to support those claims.
Also - you missed my mechanic question in my larger post above - it is relevant.

And back to thor. Im not quite sure what your views on other people in this game are since you've excluded them in an effort to mislynch me. Would you mind ranking the order of scummyness of the other people in your opinion. Your last two posts leaves me unsure where you stand.

Just because you missed the multiple posts I called andrew town in suddenly I'm "excluding"

I don't do full town/scum lists by any sort of numbered order. I do clouds. Therefore all the names in a given group are in no particular order.

Town

Huntman
Thor
andrew

Scum

Guderian
chkflip
BAZZ

Everyone else is on a sliding scale currently. Park is close to being in the town bracket, but isn't there yet. Mania is flirting with the scum bracket. mothrax is working really hard at remaining a null read and it annoys me.
I would contentedly vote to lynch anyone in the scum group, but prefer Guderian currently. I would refuse to lynch anyone in the town group and would defend them if such attempted to happen today.

[Thor665]

Addressing the more recent issues, I do not find Gude scummy (bring on the accusations of me being his buddy ).

How much do you think Guderian is scumhunting?
How much do you think Maniamax is scumhunting?
Put them on a scale with Mothrax from most to least scumhunting, please.
Quote might be relevant.

Thor - Town. However where's the eagerness you showed before gone?

Is it gone?
Or is it that other players are posting more often so I don't feel a need to constantly be commenting on everything?

@Guderian - you seem to have dodged/ignored my last handful of questions/replies to you - reasons? I consider some of them important.

@andrew - I actually don't think much translation is needed between you and Guderian, but here's my quick rundown for both of you on what you're missing;
Andrew - Guderian understands that the post review feature exists and has never claimed otherwise - stop trying to prove to him it does.
Guderian - andrew is really just calling you scummy for sheeping me at the unvote stage - focus on that if you want to defend the point and stop acting like he's saying not using the review feature = scummy.

Done.

[Thor665]

2.) Even if I am completely wrong and he is town, I don't see how he could be helpful to us.

[IC hat] Don't vote for people you believe are town [/IC hat]
If you don't think he's scum then I don't really want you on the wagon. This game isn't really big enough to vote off people just because they won't be all that helpful to town (if that were the case I'd probably still be pushing parknourie)

[Thor665]

Also - GUDERIAN IS AT L-1.

"Accidentally" hammering someone is not an excuse now that I've posted this. Hammer only because you want to hammer.

I'd like a Guderian claim.

[Thor665]

If I was scum would I have unvoted so fast to raise suspicion [snip] been so prominent day 1 or try to generate discussion?

I did both, you seem to think I'm scummy. What am I missing?
Also, what is the Mafiascum game mechanic you believe we are lynching you for?

[Thor665]

@andrew - I am well aware of why I believe Gud to be scum, I was only explaining the part where you guys kept slamming your heads together with an inability to understand each other. I never intended to suggest the clarification point was the full extent of your case. Please relax.

[Thor665]

If I was scum would I have unvoted so fast to raise suspicion [snip] been so prominent day 1 or try to generate discussion?

I did both, you seem to think I'm scummy. What am I missing?
Also, what is the Mafiascum game mechanic you believe we are lynching you for?

^^^
A brick wall - I am talking to it.

[Thor665]

@Gud - fair enough, now answer the first part of the post which you didn't answer.

[Thor665]

You want me to build my case on you now?

If responding to the question obligates you to do so - yes.
I want to know why you're pointing out things you say wouldn't happen as scum when your top suspect is doing two of the three things you listed.

[Thor665]

mania, where did he claim vt.

x3 on the above question.

[Thor665]

tl:dr
Explaining thoughts on Gud and chkflip currently.
A primer for going into Day 2, posting it now just to be sure it is available (and also I see the Day winding up)

p.s. (notice quotes in building a case? Notice who the people are who haven't built their case with quotes? thor and chk.....)

thor, I want quotes so you can prove I am guilty with my own words. If I was making a case on you I would expect you to do the same.

Very well.
Which points of my case are you *denying* happened?
I'll post relevant quotes to support those claims.

Also, quotes don't = super case as otherwise chkflips' case would be a super case.

For the record, Guderian, if you are town (or scum, I suppose), after chkflip's case of super scummy wall o' nothing I do feel an urge to vote for him pretty strongly. However, you have been ignoring comments/questions put right at you and you've also been toying around with AtE in quite a few of your posts in a way that is crumbling any town feeling I might have for you.

chkflip's giant wall is interesting because it's a very impressive tell. The question is, do we read it as him being annoyed at Gud and wanting to bury him in his own words (a town tell) or is it fear Gud was about to get out from under a wagon and the desire was to try and secure and lock him down (a scum tell).

The best thing about not lynching Gud today is the soft vanilla claim is a bit of a town tell - but this is a tell I learned in a [redacted] game and I'm actually not sure if the person who used it was pulling my leg or not, which makes me uneasy about following through on it much. That said, I think it's the best defense available for Gud.

I still think Gud is a pretty excellent option for lynch as compared to chkflip as there are a lot more connections available then to chkflip (who I don't think anybody besides me just now has even implied having the smallest amount of a town read on). If Gud is scum then andrew and I are obvious town and chkflip is actually possible town. If Gud is town then Mania is very likely town, Park will need a new looking at, and chkflip will definitely be a player of interest again.

=============================IC strategy Box===================================
If there is a doc in this game your job is to try to figure out who scum is most likely to target. Generally speaking these are people who nobody suspects are scum, because scum hates that.

If there is a cop in this game I will advise you to focus on players you are uncertain of reads on, scum are going to try to kill townie seeming people and town will want to lynch scummy seeming people - by targeting the middle of the road people you can move them firmly into either a scum or town position (though generally speaking you won't want to roleclaim first thing tomorrow). The other potential cop strategy is to focus on players you think are very likely to be lynched tomorrow - if you can confirm them as town you can annoy scum and increase town's chances of lynching scum. The drawback is that this strategy will rather obligate you to declare yourself openly in thread the next day.

Moving in to Day 2 don't forget the voting patterns from Day 1. Who voted whom and why is very important. Just because someone voted scum or defended town doesn't prove their alignment though - pay attention to the motivations and the timing behind when they did their attacks and defense.

Also, always be willing to listen to other players, if you get too tunneled it can be dangerous for town. If you have a strong town read on someone and they don't like your case on your top suspect - find out why! Town+Town is a very powerful combo because you'll be a better scumhunter with two heads.

Finally, don't be afraid to look at the NKs and try to decide why scum killed them. Sometimes it will just be scum trying to mess with you, but sometimes it will be scum killing who they had to kill. Keep them honest by being willing to consider who has died and why because that way scum can't just always kill who they wish/need to kill and will have to try to 'mess' with town via doing some unoptimal kills.

[Thor665]

[L-4] parknourie - (mothrax)
[L-4] mothrax - (parknourie)

[1] Not Voting - (ooBAZZoo)
==============================

@BAZZ - you suxxors, vote for someone.
@Park - welcome to OMGUSville, how is the weather there? Vote for chk or Gud, whichever you believe is more likely scum, no mothrax lynch is happening today.
@mothrax - you were replaced so...yes...but when your replacement gets in here I want a preemptive zap on him for being still alone on that park wagon.

[Thor665]

i dont agree that if gud is scum, chkflip is possible town.

Possible, not definite.

Look at it this way - the huge wall o' posting was done for a reason. You are correct that it could just be a super, over-eager, bussing action. However, it could also be town who was annoyed he was called out for not including quotes in his cases and wanted to show how scummy the scum was. The question is if you get any sense of annoyance/anger out of chk in that post - the more legitimate anger you think you spot the less likely it is that chk is scum.

That is a very good point about the experience factor from Guderian, thanks for removing that bit of doubt (plus, I'm still not sure how much I buy that tell )

[Thor665]

And attitude can be more important then content depending on how you scum/town hunt.

Parknourie has had pretty much 0% functional posting - does that make him auto scum? (the answer is, unfortunately, no)

I agree that chk's wall post is useless and contains no scumhunting (in fact I'd give it lower marks the you did) but that's not the point of why I'm saying Gudscum = potential of chktown.

[Thor665]

@BAZZ - if you want a vote to pressure someone IN ANY WAY then you can't call it a pressure vote or a preliminary vote or a temporary vote.
Also, I actually think Guderian was shopping his Thor/chkflip theory before you ever said anything about it.

'tl:dr' - too long; didn't read
'AtE' - Appeal to Emotion (it's an attempt to get people to agree with you not because of the value of an arguement but because you're trying to tag their emotions - be it fear, or pity, et al)
'Suxxors' - not optimal

Your case on me is that my arguments are compelling but not as compelling as you think an IC's arguments should be? (you're suggesting I'm scummy because I'm not as good as you think I should be, which is an absolutely terrible scum tell unless you've read up on a lot of my previous games and can show how awesome I am/aren't)
Also, you think I was *subtle* in pushing for park and Guderian? <---seriously?
Finally, if you think my last post is a backing off of Guderian scum then I submit that you are not reading my posts as accurately as you could.

[Thor665]

tl:dr

"concrete" and "Day 1 case" are *not* synonyms, and everyone who is expecting this is being silly.
"refute" and "disagree" are not synonyms either.
Nor are "disagree" and "scummy"

To put on the IC hat briefly, the above three points are all very much worth learning. Longer blather is below, and separated out by who I'm responding to..
===============================================================

chkflip

I do feel an urge to vote for him pretty strongly.

- You've brought up interesting points about me, but I've refuted them. Did my responses seem to make you feel the same way, or is there something that I've missed?
- Why so strongly? All I'm trying to do here is lynch scum. :/ I must be missing

something

.

1. You have disagreed with them - that is different from refuting. They are not points that can be proven or refuted until either you or I are lynched, only cops can make those type of cases in Newbies.
2. Because I strongly see the chance that you are scum. If Gud flips scum maybe we'll talk again.

- Very insightful viewpoint. Which way do you read it, Thor?
- If it's the latter, this is a bit intriguing to me, as the reasoning to it being scum don't sound all that much like a scum tell to me.

Not much point in positing until we get a Gud flip. To try to clarify how deeply I believe it; I believe it as more likely a town tell than andrew does.
Scum bus, wanting to make sure you're a super strong part of the Gud case is bussing 101. Thor and andrew will be obv. town if Gud is scum because we were super hard and aggressive on him and made the case happen. You are a hanger-on, who may or may not be scum, but your presence on the wagon does not make you obvious town.

- Isn't this another valid point to his being lynched? He has no defense.

What defense do you expect him to have? Day 1 there are no concrete cases and, likewise, there are no concrete defenses.

==================================================================================================

ooBAZZoo

@Thor:
Mine wasn't a pressure vote in anyway. I was merely making people aware that it may change soon (most likely to Chkflip).

The point is, why put a vote on me and immediately note that it's likely to change?
The only reason to vote me is to either get me lynched or to make me believe you want me lynched in order to get reactions out of me. You have removed your ability to do either, making your vote weak.

Perhaps I explained myself poorly. I find the way in which you present your arguments as confident and inteligent, and reading them at first glance its appears that you know what you are talking about. My issue is that when I actually examine them for the points you are making, these points don't hold any weight (not in my opinion anyway)

And in my opinion they are compelling. Us disagreeing on how valid a scum tell is does not make either of us scum. Look at the *purpose* behind my cases. That's what is either scum or town play. The method is something people will always disagree on because there are as many methods as there are players on mafiascum.

Yes, perhaps not subtle in your own reasoning, but subtle in the way in which it influenced town.

...so, I say "hey guys, this case is awesome, here's why, vote for scum"
And they say "sure"
And this is scummy...how? You *want* to convince people to vote the way you're voting - that's how you find and lynch scum.

after chkflip's case of super scummy wall o' nothing I do feel an urge to vote for him pretty strongly.

It seems like you are opening other avenues to vote because the Gude lynch doesn't look as likely.

So do you believe the point you are making or not?
Is everyone who lists two players they consider scummy distancing from both reads?
Also, I was the very first person in this game to call chkflip scummy - so if it's a new avenue I'm opening I did it quite a while ago.

Is the term used in America?

Yes.

[Thor665]

You keep bringing up lack of quotes as = to scum case.
I have asked you which of the points I have made you *deny happened* and offered to supply quotes for those.
You keep bringing up lack of quotes as = to scum case.

So...

[Thor665]

btw Thor your case sucked.

So you were town? Derp-da-doo on me then.

Quite frankly I don't think my case was terrible, though I will admit it wasn't brilliant. Besides, if you want to throw around harsh language why don't we wait till endgame and then consider the case you were thinking about pushing on me - which I assure you would have been no more quality then the case I had on you. The AtE stuff was what was really sinking you for me - I'll probably have more thoughts for you endgame but that's the biggest bit of quick advice I suggest you work on. Feel free to put together a critique of me too and we can debate it after the game is over.

As regards Park I will note, in case I end up deadified during night, that, at most, one of Chk and Park are likely to be scum as I don't see them as a likely pair. Andrew is back in the potential scum mix due to earlier park defense and shift towards Gudtown. Those who defended Gud too much will need some looking at as well, as that's another way scum try to get town points. Let's see how night treats us and hopefully I'll catch you all here tomorrow.

Any power roles, please don't declare immediately on Day 2 even if you get an exciting result, try to be strategic as there are still two scum out there and you only want to reveal for a definite scum lynch. The cop can try to steer subtly, and the doc, if he protects someone and prevents a nightkill, can just stay quiet unless it looks like his target is going to be the lynch.

[Thor665]

mr thor, why did you put this 'in case I end up deadified during night,' in twilight. this has the potential to create wifom stew.

Because I might have ended up deadified?
It only creates WIFOM if you allow it to. The comment should not be the basis of any case, only the support. So if you think I'm town then it is a town comment because I'm not sure if I'll be NKed, and if you think I'm scum then it's scum trying to make a towny seeming post. There is no WIFOM there to be had other then what you bring in.

I've got to read back over Day 1 (well...skim back over...) but here are a couple of quick thought.

The killing of Charlie is interesting (and horribly rude by the scum team if Charlie was reading up) it gives us a couple of clues to consider.
- Charlie was a replace in and nobody knew what his views would really be, so why was he killed?
- scum could have been happy with the way everyone was thinking, and just not wanted a new viewpoint to rock the boat (low possibility in my mind, as this is higher level tactics)
- scum could have been trying to avoid NKing someone they saw as a likely doctor protect (reasonable possibility)
- scum could have been PR hunting (odd possibility)
- scum could be one of the more "confirmed" town and wanted to justify why they weren't NKed by having scum target someone odd (reasonable possibility)

There's another one I'll discuss a bit later depending on how the flow of the day goes, as I don't want to tip my hand just yet. Also, all of the above is very WIFOM if you let yourself be sucked into it like that - the goal is to consider the possibilities and just keep them lightly in the back of your head. Eliminate the ones you don't believe are true and as you narrow down suspects by other means you can consider if any of the points bear relevance to you.

Will have my re-read thoughts up either late Sunday or mid Monday.

[Thor665]

@Thor:
- Still having those urges?
- [PR]Same question as andrew. -_-

1. Yes, though it will come into more clarity as a re-read. At the moment you are probably not who I would name as a top two suspects, but I feel I need the re-read to get a proper grasp on the movement of yesterday.
2. Which one, you asked him about four?

[Thor665]

Greetings,

My apologies for my delay in getting back to this game. First off, an important question;

@Huntman

- what are your thoughts on andrew's playstyle in this game as compared to his other games?

@andrew

- what are your thoughts on Charlie as a player?

Something for people to consider moving forward

Guderian - (andrew94, chkflip, Thor665, Huntman800, parknourie)
[L-3] chkflip - (Maniamax, Guderian)
[L-4] parknourie - (Charlie)
[L-4] ooBAZZoo - (Thor665) <---should be reversed

(Though something is odd with that double Thor vote on both BAZZ and Gud - I'm pretty sure BAZZ was voting me and the mod was just on drugs)

The basic logic looking at the votes is this; odds are there was probably one scum who was on the Guderian wagon and probably one scum who was not.

Of the people voting to lynch we have 5 still alive.
Of the people not voting we have two still alive.

I'm probably leaning voting BAZZ right at the moment but would like to have my questions from earlier in this post answered first as they are relevant.
chkflip is pure sheep, I just wish I felt more certain on the alignment of that sheep.

@chkflip

- you zapped andrew for lack of contributions after his chance to read up on the thread...what do you consider your good contributions of the day up to that point?

[Thor665]

Actually, this should be interesting just to see the reactions to it, if nothing else;

@@Vote: ooBAZZoo

[Thor665]

I think he was zapping me, though he may have floated to park - either situation still works within my narrative.

You're right Hunt was replaced;

@

Huntman

Guy who used to be called Hunt -

what are your thoughts on andrew's playstyle in this game as compared to his other games?

Ignore this question, it's useless now.

@andrew - the 3+ claims I've seen happen from town and scum. Generally I think your case at that point was one of icing looking for a cake. The cake may or may not be real

[Thor665]

Why did your special and unique case on park come immediately after his special and unique case on park?

[Thor665]

@Thor:
[snip]
- What do you think of the case on park thus far?
- Do you have a better suspect?

@EVERYBODY

A quick question; is being the hammer on town scummy - yes/no? (if you feel the need to add reasons I'm fine hearing them.

[Thor665]

No need to elaborate unless you think it's important to understanding your standpoint.

[Thor665]

@BAZZ - had a question you missed - hammering, is it scummy or not?
@parknourie - had a question you missed - hammering, is it scummy or not?

So far our results are;

Yes - 0
No - 0
Maybe, depending on *how* they hammer - 2

Still want to finish the poll.

After being busy I'm surprised to see a vote against me.

Would you have expected the vote if you weren't busy?

@Thor - I've read andrew's limited case against me and it seemed like standard andrew ridiculousness to me (to the degree where I pretty much ignored it).
1) What's your reason behind voting me?
2) What did you mean by "Actually, this should be interesting just to see the reactions to it, if nothing else" (before voting)? Did you mean my reaction, or other's?
[snip]
3) If I'm the player off the wagon you suspect, who on the wagon is your top suspect?
4) (If not the answer to Q3) What's your read of andrew? (because at the moment I'm thinking that if you are town, its likely that he is scum)

1. You seem to have puzzeled it out somewhat a bit later in your post - if you're still lost ask me again.
2. Why so narrow minded, can't it be both?
3. Not sure I have a 'top' suspect there currently. I consider myself and andrew most likely town, I consider park and chk the most obvious suspects, and I consider it annoying I lost Hunt so he couldn't answer my question to him.
4. Strong town read, same as yesterday.

[Thor665]

I was fully expecting a well reasoned case from you, only one that you hadn't quite put down on the thread yet, which is why I asked you for your reasoning.

Didn't you call my Gud case yesterday terrible? Why would you expect a well reasoned case now?

If your full reason for voting me is based on the same case that andrew's put forward then I'm surprised at how poor your scumhunting is (although judging from your D1 performance maybe I shouldn't be). As I've explained, andrew's case on me doesn't hold any real weight

I've openly commented that andrew's case on you isn't impressive.

(like your early case against Park, and your case against Gude which has been proven to be wrong... I see a pattern emerging here ).

By 'pattern' that suggests you believe park to be town, unless the only pattern is Gud then you, thoughts?

@Thor - Why are you so adamant that andrew is town? (some evidence would be nice)

Some evidence that he is scum would be nice too. Why does it concern you that I think he's town? You did seem intent on sticking out a bit of an awkward choice to me when you asked me my reads on him and noted that you suspected only one of us was town (*hint - Thor, if you call andrew scum you'd be the town part of the pair - hint*).

Now I say I have a town read, and suddenly we're scum buddies together?
What changed?

[Thor665]

Oh, and my counter to your other points is basically this;

You're calling me persnickety?

And it's spelled with an 's' <---that's me actually being persnickety.

[Thor665]

This line in particular is worrying:

I was fully expecting a well reasoned case from you, only one that you hadn't quite put down on the thread yet, which is why I asked you for your reasoning.

Didn't you call my Gud case yesterday terrible? Why would you expect a well reasoned case now?

So we have park openly lying, andrew being primarily incomprehensible and Thor admitting his case is poorly reasoned.

Are you trying to be intentionally dense about what I pointed out there? Let's recap it in easier to read language;

BAZZ - Thor, you have a poorly reasoned case on Gud, that is scummy!
Thor - My case is not poorly reasoned, let's lynch Gud.
Gud - oh noes!!!! I am lynched (and am town)
Thor - The egg is upon my face, let me hint at a case on BAZZ
BAZZ - Thor, your case is poorly reasoned which is not what I would expect of you, a player I clearly believe does well reasoned cases, this is scummy!
Thor - But yesterday you said I had badly reasoned cases, why did you start believing I do well reasoned ones?
BAZZ - ...you are scumz!
Neruz - Thor admits to doing badly reasoned cases!

@Neruz - Thoughts?

[Thor665]

@Thor

You're going to have to provide some sort of corroborating evidence that Bazz thought your case on Gude was poorly reasoned; i don't particulary enjoy the idea of reading back again XD

I may have jumped the gun a bit. I will admit that you did catch my eye a couple of times on D1.

Are you jumping the gun, or do you think I look scummy?

Why do I need to provide corroborating evidence? All I did was ask if you were trying to misunderstand me, not if you did or did not accept my take on events. Again, when you read that commentary what part of it made you go "Thor is claiming he makes bad cases"? Now that you've read my simplified version do you still believe this? (I'm guessing not, since now you want evidence on BAZZ, but I sort of like to be a bit pedantic at times)

[Thor665]

Because i have clearly made an error somewhere and would like to know where. Due to the nature of the game i ovbiously can't just blindly trust what someone says, i interpreted that exchange as Bazz accusing you of having a poorly reasoned case and you agreeing with him, apparantly i was mistaken and you were instead being slightly sarcastic in relation to D1's case, unfortunately i must have missed Bazz calling your d1 case poorly reasoned as well, so if he did some proof would be nice so i can find out where i made the error.

You're still missing the important angle, which is thus;

He called my case terrible Day 1 and suggested I was scummy for it.
He called my case terrible Day 2 and suggested I was scummy for it

because he fully expected better reasoned cases from me

Him calling my cases bad Day 1 was perfectly fine and, at worst, might indicate he was scum defending Gud a bit for town credit, but could just as easily be town with an accurate assessment of the case. Him calling my case bad on Day 2 because he expected good reasoning out of me suggested he was either lying then or had been lying Day 1. Sarcastic or not I certainly never agreed that my case was bad.

What do you think about his switch in attitude from 'either Thor or anderw is scum' to 'Thor and andrew are scum' after I claimed a town read on andrew?

[Thor665]

I'm not seeing where he declared that either you or andrew were scum. You, andrew, hunt and chk have been his top suspects all game, at the moment he appears to have narrowed it down to you and andrew, with a stay on hunt\me until i've posted more, so his conclusion that you two are scum doesn't seem outside his original suspicions.

Here
Note at the bottom.
Especially when he asks me for my reads and then includes, 'gosh, if you're town he's scum I guess - please tell me your read on him' It's like the hook is staring me in the face.

From my perspective, the posting goes as such:
- Andrew presents some poor reasoning for finding me scum.
- You vote for me (without giving a single reason)

- You then call andrew's case bad immediately thereafter.

- I respond to andrew’s case saying it is flawed, and also ask you why

you

find me scum.
- You say I have ‘puzzled it out’ with my response to Andrew’s case (inferring that you and Andrew share the same thoughts

or perhaps indicating merely the point where I noted you were trying to get reactions.

).
- You then say

that you already said

‘andrew’s case on you isn’t impressive’.
This, to me, reads like scum who has forgotten where he’s lied: You vote me, without reasoning, relying on the case Andrew has put forward. Then, forgetting this, you wish to distance yourself from Andrew (who has already been mentioned as your potential scumbuddy) by saying that

his

case on me is week.

I fixed the above to helpfully clarify.
If you really think I play that badly when scum I am a very sad person.

A strong town read doesn’t come from nowhere.

No, it doesn't, and my ISO reflects where I had this town read on him.
Do you really think andrewscum is going to put so much of his rep on the line to shove through a mislynch?
Do you really think both members of the scumteam would blatantly do it while simultaneously declaring town reads on each other?

Infact, ‘persnickety’ is the US spelling, ‘pernickerty’ is the British.
So being a pernickety Brit, I’ll stick with that one.

Hmmm, thanks. Live and learn. Do you still pronounce it with the 's' sound?

What do you think about his switch in attitude from

'either Thor or anderw is scum'

to 'Thor and andrew are scum' after I claimed a town read on andrew?

Don’t misrepresent what I said (in bolded part). I never said this. Your case is getting thinner and thinner.

Well, to be honest you never said your claimed "at least" either. So we're equally misrepresenting (or is that equally attempting to understand language that is open to interpretation?) I think it was fairly strongly implied in the post I provided a link to above that you thought only one of us was scum. Note where you say that if I'm town than andrew was scum (and now I'm scum with andrew as possibly simply dumb town)

How do you explain the above shift? Is it just because I said I had a strong town read on him? (which I'd been saying yesterday too)

[Thor665]

If you'd like to call me on it feel free, I am comfortable with where I am and how I'm presenting my thoughts.

[Thor665]

How is the ground dangerous?

[Thor665]

I didn't invoke WIFOM though, you did. Thoughts?

[Thor665]

Quote where you think I did and then I'll ask you to define WIFOM and then I'll explain how I didn't do it - but let's play the game just for fun please.

[Thor665]

@Neruz - Again, you're the one who brought it up.
I'm willing to drop it because I don't particularly find you scummy at the moment, but if you're actually going to keep it in your mind and use it later as reasoning for why I'm scummy then I'd prefer to clear it up now. So back off, but please only back off if you don't think the "WIFOM I brought up" is scummy, because I did not bring up WIFOM nor am I applying it in my case on BAZZ.

@andrew - I agree, I suspect that's what he thought was WIFOM, except that it isn't. I actually suspect the reason he dropped it was because he decided either it wasn't a scumtell worth pursuing, or because he noticed how unintimidated I was and began to question it as a scumtell altogether. I'm hoping for the latter.

Neruz still isn't likely to be scum and if he is I'd rather lynch BAZZ first, so how about you drop any wild screaming pressure you're about to unleash on him. We're scumhunting, not arguing.

[Thor665]

Very well, we can avoid it for now - my brief addition to the WIFOM debate is that everything *could* be WIFOM, but that WIFOM is mostly a state of mind.

Back to the game in progress - park is town, thoughts?

[Thor665]

Based on what evidence?

Well, I'll be pouring you a glass here but...

The breakdown is this; everyone and their grandmothers agree that hammering can be scummy.
Probably everyone (besides maybe andrew) here if asked what is most town would say that it is a good idea not to waste time in the day, but to use all the discussion time available.
I would also hazard that everyone here would agree that if they were scum they would tend not to just drop a hammer on a guy who they had said a few posts earlier was not that scummy.

So, considering that;
park is either one of the worst scum players ever because he doesn't consider *once* how scummy his actions might look.
or
park is town who isn't worried about how scummy his actions might look because, hey, he's town.

Could also explain the scum NK, kill the dude who still suspected and was voting park, because, y'know, parkscum would kill that guy.

Thoughts?

[Thor665]

park is an SE, he knows how to play

The important word you're missing is 'well'
All being an SE means is that he's completed two newbie games - there is no requirement to actually not be a derpy-da-doo-da player for that. Also, if you think he knows how to play I don't know why you're suggesting then that he's scum for his play - shouldn't he know how to play better? All we've done is identify him as playing unoptimally. I'll even agree that the contradiction is a reasonable catch (though not as much a contradiction as twittery in my mind)

Why do you think the scum team decided to set him up more via their night kill?

[Thor665]

You won't consider NKs till lylo and then it's okay? You're silly.

I cannot see a reason town players would ever self-vote, but they do that too. I feel a little bit like you're scumhunting via Wiki too much and not considering some other levels of the game. You do realize your case as currently presented hinges on park being stupidscum but you don't seem to be willing to consider the fact he's simply stupidtown. (and park, apologies in advance for the choice in word, my preferred method would be 'unoptimally playing town/scum, but I think the excess words would detract from the thrust of the commentary.)

[Thor665]

Just as an example of different opinions;

Thor Believes

Considering NKs is smart and pro-town.
Lurking isn't scummy, it's null. Active lurking is scummy.
Town do contradict themselves, and indeed, do it more often then scum

Also, for more fun, let's consider exactly what WIFOM is;
"Scum wouldn't d X, A did X, therefore A isn't scum"
Town wouldn't do a contradiction, park did a contradiction, therefore park isn't town.
Is there WIFOM here?

I'm starting to blur the lines between teaching and arguing my case here, but I really want you to consider the above for a moment before you dismiss anything as WIFOM again. I do apologize for getting into the WIFOM argument with you.
Now, please, look at park again and ask yourself how strong the case really is and please consider the NK - WIFOM or not, scum did it for a reason - why would parkscum endorse that NK?

[Thor665]

Ugh, Thor, i am fully well aware that the WIFOM starts when you get into a 'i know he knows' loop. Stating "Scum wouldn't d X, A did X, therefore A isn't scum" is not in itself WIFOM, but it invites WIFOM because the next ovbious step in the statement is "But what if that's what he wants me to think."

It's that second step you need to avoid unless abslutely neccessary.

Huzzah! I believe you are very correct in this, and also by being correct you show that at no point did I delve into WIFOM (nor is NK speculation inherently WIFOM) You, sir, are the man.

On a related note Thor; i'm getting a very strong gut feeling that you're trying to get me to say something you can use against me, possibly to distract the town from park. This concerns me, doubly so because i'm having quite a hard time reading you.

Why so nervous?
Also, I think it's pretty clear I'm trying to run up BAZZ to distract the town from park, try to keep up

You believe that park is town; a conclusion that goes against the odds and ovbious scumtells. Why are you discounting the ovbious scumtells so easily?

This is actually a decent question.
I would say I'm "discounting" them so easily because I see the "tells" as indicative of one thing primarily - unoptimal play.
In a newbie game you often have to slog through unoptimal play while looking for scum, and I've played in a lot of newbie games and have seen and participated in the mislynching of players who did things that I cannot imagine town players ever doing. Consequently in newbie games I am perhaps more...tolerant of that sort of behavior because I find it less often has a clear correlation back to alignment then one would hope. All you and I are doing is standing at opposite ends of the same conclusion - you look at his play and think "too terrible to be town" whilst I meanwhile look at it and think "too terrible to be scum" Statistically the odds are actually in my favor, while deductively they are probably in yours.

As you chew on that here's another question for you;

Why do you think chkflip is town?

[Thor665]

And yet I've already called him town and the focus of our discussion has been about another player's alignment. He's being nervous. If you consider that a town tell then more power to you.

[Thor665]

Because he has done things that are "scummy", I'm not going to write him off, but at the moment, the possibility of him being poor-town is slightly higher IMO (no offence Park). Whilst I'd hammer him to avoid a no-lynch, I think there are scummier players out there atm.

---

@Park - How well do you think you've played so far?

You're really trying to cloud my reads on you, aren't ya?

Though I like the introspection of the park case you really do no more then examine it and sort of softly admit you don't think it is necessarily the perfect lynch of the day. No thoughts as to who might be?
Also, after semi-clearing park of some of his scumminess what purpose did that follow-up question to him serve?

[Thor665]

@andrew - also, I love you man, but you don't feel as clear to me today as yesterday. Who are your current top two suspects again?

[Thor665]

Why aren't you voting chkflip or neruz?

[Thor665]

Why does that prevent your vote?

Either they should look scummy and deserve a vote or they shouldn't and don't. What am I missing?

[Thor665]

@Nikanor - I approve of anal douchery

@chkflip - thoughts on the BAZZ case, go!

@park - just to clarify, I never said andrew's reason weren't justified enough or not.

[Thor665]

I really agree with chkflip (egads!) - there is NO obligation for a new player replacing in to have the same reads that his predecessor did and certainly changing them is not inherently scummy. If you think his individual push is scummy, more power to you, but saying two players had different reads is a bit like noting that the grass is green.

I think I'm actually getting a town read on chkflip at the moment, and that's horrifying.

I still would like to see another vote on BAZZ and am surprised I can't get it. Does everyone else have a town read on him?

[Thor665]

ECHO...Echo...echo...

[Thor665]

@chkflip and Neruz - you guys say BAZZ is town and park is scummy.
I say park is town and BAZZ is scummy.

Clearly at least one of us in this equation is wrong
You guys also seem to have issues with andrew that i think are off.
What are your guys opinions of Maniamax? I'm currently town on everyone but him and BAZZ, how would you two feel about a Maniamax/Packbat lynch? (this should also help light a fire under him to finish catching up )

[Thor665]

at the moment he doesn't enter into my equation so unless he does something ovbious i'm comfortable with putting a town label on him for the moment.

Dude, if you are town - that is *terrible* please fix the problem immediately.

I think the park wagon is trying to move forward on a case of 'poor play' not a case of scummy play.

Tell you what, if you can name a partner for park that isn't me (because I'm not likely to support that case) I'm willing to take another look at him.
If I do - I demand that in payment you look at Mania and don't just blindly write him off (as TOWN!) because you don't have an opinion of him. Deal?

[Thor665]

I'm not blindly writing him off as town, i'm just putting a town sticky on him unless i see a good reason to change it.

Are we perhaps being mixed up on semantics? If you called it a 'null' sticky I wouldn't be worried. A town sticky to my mind suggests you have seen actions from him that make you go 'town!' not that you have seen a lack of scum actions. Yes/no? In either case - you don't want a null read going into Day 3 with you or you don't want to have a town read on somebody unless you can point at reasons they are town.

My other serious candidate for park's scumbuddy is andrew; logically my mind says that he's just, well,

andrew

, but my gut keeps saying scum.

You are familiar with andrew's playstyle? If your gut keeps saying "andrew" then why do you have a potential scum read on him? If you can't answer this then he really isn't a valid fallback.

the possibility that [chkflip] is park's scumbuddy and is trying to drum up support with me and distance himself from park

does

exist.

I suppose - but let's be honest that his initial action of Day 1 was leaping on Park too. If he's scum he's not scum with park.

I also don't have a particular case on Mania to show you - my case is one of PoE (process of elimination) I remove possible suspects from various pools and look at what I have left. Not every play makes scumslips, but if enough players make actions that show they are town then the remainder has to be scum. I still would rather prefer a BAZZ lynch today, but with two of you so strongly opposed it's not likely to happen. Meanwhile I am pretty strong against the park lycnh, so what I'm doing is trying to find a player I think is scummy enough to lynch and who can also have multiple players agree upon.

[Thor665]

Something for people to consider moving forward

Guderian - (andrew94, chkflip, Thor665, Huntman800, parknourie)
[L-3] chkflip - (Maniamax, Guderian)
[L-4] parknourie - (Charlie)
[L-4] ooBAZZoo - (Thor665) <---should be reversed

Hmmm, also, going back and looking at this - if I'm serious about my chkflip=town feeling then I really need to reassess andrew and park. There's no way there was zero scum on that Gud lynch methinks. Andrew as the primary pusher of the wagon tends to get a few more town points - which means I really should re-read park and consider my town read there.

[Thor665]

This seems like a really bad way to conduct a scumhunt, especially considering there isn't exactly a dearth of tells from most players in the game. I can't precisely put my finger on why this seems like a bad way to scumhunt, so i could be wrong, but something about it just doesn't seem right.

I really disagree with you about PoE being a bad scumhunting method. Looking for town tells is just the mirror inverse of looking for scumtells. If you figure out your issue feel free to voice it and we can discuss.

I'd say there's a

reasonable

chance that both scum were on the Gude lynch.

Statistically it's more likely that there's only one. Let's focus on finding one before we begin to debate if there's two.

[Thor665]

You've found nothing until the flip. Considering secondary suspects prior to the flip is something I consider far less worthwhile then PoE as a scumhunting tool.

[Thor665]

The problem with PoE is that you need a heck of a lot more evidence to rule out every single other candidate than to confirm

one

candidate - something like five times, by my estimate.* I personally hate town reads

always

- sometimes I can't help but feel like someone is town, but I have yet to see a game where at least one player doesn't declare a mafia slot to be town.

And I have yet to see a game where someone didn't call a town player scum. Also, consider that I do use scumtells - I just am not using them here. It's best to use both.

@chkflip - if lurking = scum then you should be willing to consider Maniamax/Packbat more then you have. I will agree I'd like to see more from parknourie but you just wailing about how he hasn't posted in a while is not really that insightful or helpful.

[Thor665]

What would you learn from my flip?

[Thor665]

Hai Neruz - you aren't BAZZ. If you really want to answer wait till after he does. Thank you.

[Thor665]

That's all very exciting without saying anything.

No, seriously, you brought it up - what would you learn about other players if I flipped scum? What if I flip town?

If you'd like to backtrack I want it to be a bit more obvious, so feel free to just withdraw the comment if you can't answer it. I really don't think believing I'm a better lynch because I am actively interacting with all of the other players is a good basis to discern anything except that (and here's a leap) I'm actively scumhunting (or at least faking it better then everyone else is doing it).

[Thor665]

Unvote: BAZZ
Vote: parknourie

I actually rather agree with Neruz's last post (less so with chkflip's, since really all he and park are doing is going back and forth slapping at each other, but - meh) If chkflip is town then park is much more likely to be scum. Also, the length of time that wagon has gone on without getting a 3rd vote on it is a worthwhile mystery to explore.

[Thor665]

@@Unvote: BAZZ
@@Vote: parknourie

Stupid ampersands.

Chk, actually it wasn't a joke. Where Neruz got me was the comment of total lack of defense, which is a bit different then the less specific 'floating along' you used. Also, yes, your rudeness did turn me off from really paying attention to your posting.

[Thor665]

@Thor- I’m not going to waste my time running through all the interactions that you have with each player and explaining how this will affect my read of them in the light of your flip (especially since chances look slim that you’ll be today’s lynch). If you can’t see why we’d learn more from your flip than from a lurker’s, or a slot that’s had a replacement, then maybe you don’t deserve your IC status.

I think you're still missing the deeper level of the question and not recognizing what I was really saying about how bad that part of your case is.

Also, don’t try and make this out to be the sole reason I’m voting you.

What is the rest of it? Mostly you just seemed annoyed I was voting you.

And yes, my park flip is not optimal, but I can't get a you lynch nor a Mania lynch and I no longer feel as strongly town on park. If he flips scum I'll have egg on my face and be in the lynch pool, if he flips town I'll claim brilliance and try to force the town to actually use their brains for a little while on considering you a suspect. Win/win for me.

[Thor665]

So why not just vote chk?
And describe the case on me?
And not look scummy?

[Thor665]

@@Unvote: parknourie
@@Vote: chkflip

Sweet, I get to probably survive the night.
Smart Docs will be protecting park tonight unless chk flips town.

andrew is basically confirmed town now. BAZZ or Mania is the most likely buddy. Neruz is still likely town.

[Thor665]

I really don't know how it all got to this point

Your really low level of activity and involvement is how it happened. When Neruz noted that you hadn't even been trying to defend yourself or particularly try to lynch anyone else it really clicked. There's a reason scum don't like to kill lurkers - and that's because lurkers don't look like town.

[Thor665]

Pack and BAZZ are now in a race, who manges to show up first to do an 'aw shucks' townie looking post and hammer?

[Thor665]

And Packbat does an awesome job of looking like the silliest scum I've ever seen.
You really want to re-read now? And you want to try to imply park might be lying? Um, what do you think happens to him Day 3 if chk flips town? Dead parkscum - that's what.

By all means, go do your re-read, I look forward to the insights it promises.

[Thor665]

Yeah, that'll teach me to let people go easily for bad posting habits.

That's actually entirely unfair since lynching andrew for his posting style would have been an unwise idea - you should have lynched him *when the night kills plainly show that scum are avoiding killing claimed PRs* I even wrote a PM to Kitty grumbling about the lack of NK speculation from the town. The breakdown is this;

As soon as andrew claimed role block town knows for a fact chkflip is town.
Scum roleblocker, would only leave alive town PRs if he thought he could get them lynched.
Thor is killed - okay, maybe scum think they can get the PRs lynched.
Nobody makes a move to lynch the PRs.
Scum then either no kill or try to kill Neruz. Even though chkflip is confirmed town and no one suspects andrew.
Why is scum not killing either the uncounterclaimed doc or cop?
This question should have been asked and discussed, as Packscum would have been pretty dumb wanting to go into an endgame with the cop and the doc and not Neruz.

=================================================

andrew94

- Good play andrew and congrats on the win, a successful gambit and you were smart killing me not because I would have been clever enough to analyze your past cop play but simply because the lack of killing the town PRs planted you into obv. falseclaim universe. I think my best advice was that you might have wanted to kill chkflip that last night - you could have gotten away with that and it would have made you look less obv. scum.

Guderian

- Pretty solid play from you, a couple of your gambits were unconventional which is what got you into so much trouble early on. My biggest advice to you is to remember that somebody thinking you're scummy is not a scumtell on their part unless you've claimed a role or something else odd is going on.

Charlie

- I never saw you make a scummy post (andrew and park were meanies for killing you)

parknourie

- Wooosh, you actually almost got out from under my radar by playing so scummy I just couldn't buy you as scum. Pretty much everything Neruz and chkflip mentioned as they were trying to lynch you is stuff you need to work on. Hammering like you did in a non-newbie would pretty much be insta-death the next day.

Thor665

- The biggest point of advantage to my play I can point out is how on Day 2 I kept myself open enough to reconsider and eventually vote parknourie. Remember, when you are town other players you have strong town reads on are there to help you focus your own scumhunting.

ooBAZZoo

- Try to stay more focused and open in your opinions. A lot of my issues with you were best summed up as fellings that you were fencesitting and just generally poo-pooing wagons without offering alternatives. Good town is proactive, scum tend to like to sit back and regard things.

Packbat

- I actually thought you were pretty obvious town, but then I also had the screaming scumtell on andrew that I was frothing over. You and Neruz just allowed yourselves to be confirmation biased into forgetting that scum occasionally help lynch their partners.

Neruz

- You did a fine job, though coming in on the tail end of Hunt was a nice place to be as a replace in. My biggest niggle with you is you need to clarify whether or not something is scummy or simply annoying. You wasted a lot of time with andrew grumbling about clarity in writing when, though I agree his posts were poorly put together, they were all still relatively clear. That was energy you could have spent better elsewhere. On the final Day you should have fought for a bit more talking since you knew chkflip *had* to be town you should have forced him to engage opinions more to help you clarify your own thoughts.

Huntman800

- I wish more newbies played like you You just need a bit of time to sharpen up your radar, and you're more than ready for playing on the regular site.

chkflip

- You were the obvious town. You'd claimed a protect on Neruz so he should look almost certain obvious town to you as well. Why the two of you didn't form an aggressive pro-town discussion force makes me wonder. Your biggest weakness (and it's one I've succumbed to as well) is that after you were confirmed you got a little lazy. When confirmed as town you should be the one in charge because you are the one player everyone knows is town. Get opinions, force conversation, and hopefully lead correctly (that's the other hard part ).

[Thor665]

There are gambits and then there are gambits - but this is skating dangerously close to an ongoing so maybe we'll save it for post game there.

I actually don't even recall my case on you - but I didn't think it was that bad at all, nor do I really agree with everyone bemoaning the case (obviously - or I wouldn't have done it ).