New York 131: Tricycle Mafia (Day 5)
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Ehhh, okay. I see the other interpretation of what you said now. Scum rallying town is anti-scum because low town activity is good for scum, got it. Thought you were suggesting that scum leading Town into believable mislynches was a bad plan."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Toon Fighter wrote:DeityKabuto wrote:Hmm... so atm Subzero is the first one trying to scumhunt this early, and observing this, I can't really say whether Toon is scum or not yet, but Subzero's points are valid and I can actually of agree with him on that reasoning. But I do not like how Toon voted Subzero just for being attacked.
AtmVote Toon Fighter
This is a pressure vote.
I voted him because he is attacking me for bs reasons about a RV I made at the beginning of the game
No vote is truly random.
Take my vote on nhammen, for example. I chose him because he is one of the few people I've played with before, and last time we were scum together. It wasn't random, it was a bit of an inside joke.
I think you were, perhaps subconsciously, looking to be an early sheep onto a wagon and hopefully ride it out."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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DeityKabuto wrote:Interesting how wagons can be formed in the RVS and how quickly they change, but afterwords Pine states that his vote on nhammen was not random and he had a "gut feeling" that he is scum YET he had a vote on nhammen.
I've already stated this, but I'll do so again. The "this vote is not random" was intended to accompany a vote on Toon.
The first thing that tipped me off on Toon was how, during the RVS, he piled a second vote onto a truly meaningless one, and tried to make an early wagon out of nothing. Since then, he's scummed up the thread at every turn.
I think you'll find that once you take into consideration the correct interpretation of the "this vote is not random" post, everything I've said makes more sense."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Not necessarily, but early bandwagons, and being early onto those wagons, can deflect attention away from you. Had Toon done it a bit more subtly, it would have worked. The clumsy way it was done was more suggestive of scum than the vote itself, really."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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I have no real opinion on SZS's wagon, one way or the other. They haven't done anything to make me especially suspicious of them, but neither have they given off any town tells.
The wagon on me is a pressure wagon, based in part on an admittedly-awkward post. I'm not especially concerned about it, because I'm secure in the knowledge that I'm Town and that fact will show itself in time."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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I've gotta be honest here...I'm almost completely stumped. I've seen no strong tells or slips from anyone, and the suspicion I have of Toon is pretty weak. Can the people with strong reads make a case or two?"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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DeityKabuto wrote:@Mastin2, you think that Pine never explaining his random vote as how SubzeroSith did isn't scummy anymore?
Wait, what didn't I explain?
And mastin, isn't it clear by now that I vote for who I want, when I want, often for reasons not accounted for in your VCA theory? Your VCAs have an absolutely TERRIBLE track record with me, and for that reason I am loathe to give them any real credence in predicting others."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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They could be bussing scumbuddies who have gotten in too deep and now have to "steer into the skid" in order to pull out.
Silver, on the other hand, is displaying a significant departure from the very pro-town behavior I'm used to from TWBB.
Unvote
Vote: Silver"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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^L-2
I read the "One for one trade" line of Silver's as a town-by-repetition attempt by Silver. On the other hand, the argument between Silver and Sub struck me as distinctly not Town vs Town. I just couldn't put my finger on who until I considered Silver's performance in TWBB. For that reason, if he does flip Town, I'd be inclined to go with his advice and at least put the pressure on Sub tomorrow."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Knight of Cydonia wrote:"from his posts" is not an explanation. It's half-assing one and hoping no-one calls you on it.
If you're going to call someone scum, you quote posts and point what's scummy out, right?
Do the same if you're going to call someone town.
No. I agree that leaving it at "from his posts" wasn't enough, but generally youdon'twant to spell out precisely why. Often, it comes from picking up on Town PR tells that you hope scum didn't see, and explaining in exacting detail why someone is Town makes them atarget. Town doesn't do that to Town.
Like I said, in this situation I agree with you. If I were Town going down in flames and about to be mislynched, I'd be doing everything in my power to get my reads out there, especially my strong reads. When I flipped Town, they'd have extra weight and get looked at again.
The fact that Silver isn't doing so is further evidence against him, and throwing out WIFOM-laden statements like that is almost a scumclaim."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Soon? It's been 10 days, and we already have at least one strong lead for D2, as well as other based on Silver's flip. There've been a lot of connections between people drawn, I'm comfortable moving on.
Then again, I'm accustomed to very short days, so I might be biased."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Semi-V/LA until tomorrow night. I'll get to Maxous's question then.
Noticed something from Vote Count. Mastin and Silver cannot be scumbuddies. Mastin's meta and obsession with VCA would not allow him to be on the secondary wagon with a buddy. If/when SIlver flips scum, Mastin is confirmed Town in my eyes."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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More votes on Silver please. It's time. We're getting into that phase where productivity drops and we just start tearing at each other and messing with non-tells while scum sit back in either resignation or satisfaction."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Mastin's refusal to help with Silver's inevitable lynch is major scumpoints if Silver flips Town. Why? Because Mastin helped the Silver wagon develop, then abandoned it for townpoints on the not-going-to-happen-today counter-wagon when it became (probably) unstoppable. I've played with Mastin before, this kind of "go against expectations" style is like him."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Mastin, we've played together enough, and we have similar enough styles, that I feel I can be frank with you. I have those gut feelings too, and I can (and have) faked gut feelings of that nature as well. I know what it's like when they're real, and I know what it's like when they're fake.
I'm not having a gut feeling (in either direction at this point) on Silver. I'm going on interpretation of evidence.
Iamhaving a gut feeling thatyourgut read is a fake one."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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UNVOTE: Silver
VOTE: SubZeroSith
Bah. I don't have time to fully consider the ramifications of this.
I do note that this use of a claimed cop power is indirectcontradiction to mastin's article about cops, but I find it extremely difficult to believe that he'd fakeclaim as scum. Town gambit on a strong gut read, maybe. Have to think about this. Looks like we're headed for a no-lynch."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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No real choice, DK. Cop claims, you follow the cop's lead until there's a solid reason to do otherwise.
Mastin, can you explain why you investigated someone who was, at the time, a strong scumread for you? How is that in line with your discussion article on cop methodology?"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Nah, he's on my scumlist too. Second behind the Silver/SubzeroSith pairing, in fact.
However, with Silver being tentatively cleared by Mastin, my earlier strong read that one or both of {Silver, SubzeroSith} being scum takes precedence. Depending on flip, NK, and new developments, I'll be up for a Toon lynch on D2."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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SubzeroSith wrote:A few things...
First, Pine's vote is TERRIBLE. He has agreed with us (ICE and I) on both Toon and Silver, <useless ongoing drivel for a full paragraph>
Seriously? You're trying to wipe your scum onto me? I have never votedwithyou. I voted for Silver for my own reasons, following my own logic. It's shit like this that make me certain that your argument with Silver was not Town v. Town. You both employed tactics like this, which are really just elaborate ad hominems and misrepresentation, and at first no one could tell which of you was bad scum and which of you was bad Town. I chose Silver based on his performance in a previous game, and I'm glad that Mastin has now set us back on the right track. It now occurs to me that as soon as the Silver wagon picked up speed, you mostly dropped off the radar. Now suspicion is back onto you in earnest, and you pick up your old scumtactics.
You're the lynch today, and with deadline fast approaching and plurality rules in effect, I'd like to hear a claim out of you."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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With less than 24 hours to deadline, with plurality lynch rules and three sizable wagons (including the votes standing on Silver) no one is likely to GET to L-1. So SZS, if you have a claim that you think will clarify your Towniness, now is the time to make it."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Pine wrote:SubzeroSith wrote:A few things...
First, Pine's vote is TERRIBLE. He has agreed with us (ICE and I) on both Toon and Silver, <useless ongoing drivel for a full paragraph>
Seriously? You're trying to wipe your scum onto me? I have never votedwithyou. I voted for Silver for my own reasons, following my own logic. It's shit like this that make me certain that your argument with Silver was not Town v. Town. You both employed tactics like this, which are really just elaborate ad hominems and misrepresentation, and at first no one could tell which of you was bad scum and which of you was bad Town. I chose Silver based on his performance in a previous game, and I'm glad that Mastin has now set us back on the right track. It now occurs to me that as soon as the Silver wagon picked up speed, you mostly dropped off the radar. Now suspicion is back onto you in earnest, and you pick up your old scumtactics.
You're the lynch today, and with deadline fast approaching and plurality rules in effect, I'd like to hear a claim out of you.
Simply the most recent post in which I comment on the Silver vs SZS suspicion."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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That was in response to this:
Thor665 wrote:Pine, Toon Fighter, Surye, DeityKabuto
Players who haven't yet justified why one of silver/SZ had to be scum.
Mastin
Player who claims an either/or and won't even back me on it. What is your case for SZ, really? I bet it's gak. Let's lynch Amor."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Ad hom is a tactic of destroying an opponent's credibility instead of meeting their arguments in a reasonable manner. It has nothing to do with logic, because it avoids engaging in actual debate.
My vote will remain on SZS, because my conviction about them is older and stronger than my new suspicion of you. If/when they flip scum, you'll gain a huge number of scumpoints for chainsawing.
PE: Also, chainsaw is NOT just a scumtactic. It's largely only used by scum, but can also be the tool of Town defending a strong Townread, Mason defending their buddy, Cop defending an innocent, etc. I'mreallynot liking how you routinely take my words out of context and misrepresent me.
I have a null read on Amor. The wagon on him kind of came out of nowhere. I need to read up on him specifically, so I'll get back to you."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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UNVOTE: SZS
I'm at a loss for words. BOTH Silver and SZS are Town? What nonsense is this? Obviously, unless Thor or Jmurph contradict the Mason claim, we're not lynching SZS.
Also, this completely explains the chainsaw defense of SZS given by Thor. I do not apologize for the accusation, as the chainsaw defense WAS employed, and in one of the few Town scenarios.
VOTE: Toon
My only remaining strong scumread, though I'm willing to hear a case on Amor (or read one that someone links me to). I admit that I have been tunnelling a bit and have ignored half the players in the thread.
PE: I think we've both got our wires crossed. I was thinking the same about you. Call it a draw for now and move on? If you can produce a full Amor case I'd be happy to read it."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Fuck it. I'm willing to trust Mastin on this. Not counting confirmed Town roles, he only has two strong town reads, and one of them (me) I know to be correct. That confidence on Toon has shaken mine, so I'm banking on Mastin being pretty on-target this game.
UNVOTE: Toon
VOTE: Amor"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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See, that post makes me think that the presumably-impossible might actually be true; that scum claimed Mason, and dragged their buddies along with them. Buddies have no choice but to go along, but aren't really afraid because who's going to lynch the claimed Masons?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not actually advocating we lynch one and see. That would be a catastrophic waste of Town resources against the minute chance that SZS was that stupid. It's just that that post struck me as so ridiculously scummy that it's making me contemplate the unlikely."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Well, for starters, you set out to character-assassinate and discredit the claimed daycop, criticize him for saving us from a mislynch, express concern only with yourself, continue to push against two nigh-confirmed Townies, and the whole post just reeks to high heaven.
I haven't drunk any kool-aid. Mastin and I disagree on so much across so many games, this is actually the first where I think we're both Town and we agree on most things. Why does it bother you so much to have people outside your clique agreeing with each other?"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Mastin, an investigation of the claimed Masons wouldn't be wasted, I think. Normally I'd say investigating Masons would be, but you're likely to die soonish, and confirming three Townies in one go would be a great way to go out."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Your whole post is an attack on Mastin. You are very careful not to insult or personally attack him, but everything you said (and much of what you have said since) are attempts to dismiss or discredit him, his reads, and the results of his investigation.SubzeroSith wrote:1: Please point out where we have slandered, libeled, denigrated, or otherwise put down Mastin as a person. We've never called him names, never been uncivil, and criticizing his play is fair game. Just because someone is a PR doesn't mean you should blindly follow their lead.Whyare you doing this?
Are youSubzeroSith wrote:2: We don't know yet that Mastin saved us from a mislynch. If we still mess up and lynch town today, we're in a WAY worse situation than before Mastin's claim.high? Cop. Cop has innocent. Confirmed mislynch <possiblemislynch
SubzeroSith wrote:3: Whut? We've been selfish...how? By fighting tooth and nail against the town lynching a PR?
Here's the quote:
SubzeroSith wrote:Furthermore, it would have been amuchbetter move to investigate me instead. Should we have investigated scum, you could have easily said "I investigated them, and they are scum" and we would have been lynched. We would have shown town, at which point you say "alright, I don't see town going force with a SZS lynch today, so I'll vote someone else."
So...Mastin should have spent his daycop power on someone who wasn't the leading lynch? Instead, he used it on someone who he had a gut feeling was about to be mislynched, confirmed them, and saved us from mislynching?
SubzeroSith wrote:4: Which two? And don't say Mastin. He's not confirmed town, not by a long shot.
I was talking about you and your Masonbuddies. The fact that you subconsciously, absent-mindedly don't include you and your buddies in the confirmed Townie category isextremelysuspicious.
SubzeroSith wrote:5: Because if Mastin is who he says he is, I think you're probscum buddying up to a town PR so that he doesn't investigate you.
This is a good point, despite the fact that it is predicated on something that isn't true. The reality is that I'm agreeing with Mastin, someone I've played with many times and have a good feel on, on one or two issues.Last edited by quadz08 on Wed May 18, 2011 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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@Maxous: I didn't say the three of them were gambiting together. I said that I had a tinfoil hat suspicion that SZS made an incredibly stupid claim, and his buddies had to back it.
And in that case, it's entirely likely that they'd all survive. Vig probably won't want to kill them, they won't kill themselves, Town won't lynch them, all they have to fear is SKs, being cc-ed by real Masons (would have happened by now) and tinfoil hat theories.
The odds of this being true are pretty remote though, which is why I haven't pushed it in the slightest."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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I looked over the DK case in the night and it has merit. I require explanation of why Toon is Town to you, Mastin. A summary will do, you hide behind ephemeral walls more often than not. More later with analysis, posting from phone.
VOTE: Deity Kabuto"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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I have no issue with the early claim. L-2 claims make much more sense than L-1 claims overall.
The claim itself...I'd hate to quicklynch a claimed PR with other good choices for pressure (Toon, Mastin). I'll think about it while I mow the lawn."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
Act 3, Scene 1 ofJulius Caesar, by W. Shakespeare-
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Pine In Your Head
- In Your Head
- In Your Head
- Posts: 16763
- Joined: February 27, 2011
- Location: Upstate New York
Nah, screw it. I'll counter-claim. I was debating whether a Jailkeeper and Roleblocker could exist together, hence my hesitancy without an unvote. I rather doubt it. Especially as DK's claimed rolename was "Roleblocker" while describing a Jailkeeper's role.
I am a Town Roleblocker. Deity Kabuto is fakeclaiming."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
Act 3, Scene 1 ofJulius Caesar, by W. Shakespeare-
-
Pine In Your Head
- In Your Head
- In Your Head
- Posts: 16763
- Joined: February 27, 2011
- Location: Upstate New York