New York 131: Tricycle Mafia (Day 5)

[Pine]

VOTE: nhammen

Dude's avatar is a chimp wearing a suit and holding a damn Desert Eagle. Obvscum.

[Pine]

EDT, do your own research on me, and I'm pretty active and vocal.

No real early reads yet, though I'm not a fan of the early sheeping out of Toon.

Ohai Wraith

[Pine]

Darth Yoshi and ICEninja, I believe.

[Pine]

GreyICE and ICEninja are different accounts. Hell, they could be alts or hydras for all I know. Ninja and Grey play very different though.

[Pine]

Yeah. In lieu of anything more convincing, I'm sticking with my slight gut lead I had on Toon Fighter. It's not a random vote.

[Pine]

I'm not liking the enthusiastic overconfidence out of Thor. Both are pretty weakly-reasoned wagons, we just don't have enough to go on for anything better. Sounds like classic town-rallying scum.

[Pine]

My problem is mostly that you express such unfounded certainty in

both

wagons.

Implying that scum rallying Town is a bad idea is a) not true, I've used it to great effect and b) very, very WIFOMmy.

[Pine]

Ehhh, okay. I see the other interpretation of what you said now. Scum rallying town is anti-scum because low town activity is good for scum, got it. Thought you were suggesting that scum leading Town into believable mislynches was a bad plan.

[Pine]

What? I thought my vote was on Toon. nhammen vote was pure RVS, Toon is real.

UNVOTE: nhammen
VOTE: Toon

[Pine]

Hmm... so atm Subzero is the first one trying to scumhunt this early, and observing this, I can't really say whether Toon is scum or not yet, but Subzero's points are valid and I can actually of agree with him on that reasoning. But I do not like how Toon voted Subzero just for being attacked.

Atm

Vote Toon Fighter

This is a pressure vote.

I voted him because he is attacking me for bs reasons about a RV I made at the beginning of the game

No vote is truly random.

Take my vote on nhammen, for example. I chose him because he is one of the few people I've played with before, and last time we were scum together. It wasn't random, it was a bit of an inside joke.

I think you were, perhaps subconsciously, looking to be an early sheep onto a wagon and hopefully ride it out.

[Pine]

What? I was never against the Toon wagon. I've been FOR it almost from page 1. I just forgot to actually vote until the mod's votecount reminded me I was still on my RVS vote of nhammen

[Pine]

Mastin, are you stalking me?

If so, please continue

[Pine]

Dude. This isn't complicated. Add a vote on Toon into the second quote, and it all makes sense. A vote was clearly intended, but I made a mistake and left the actual vote off.

[Pine]

Interesting how wagons can be formed in the RVS and how quickly they change, but afterwords Pine states that his vote on nhammen was not random and he had a "gut feeling" that he is scum YET he had a vote on nhammen.

I've already stated this, but I'll do so again. The "this vote is not random" was intended to accompany a vote on Toon.

The first thing that tipped me off on Toon was how, during the RVS, he piled a second vote onto a truly meaningless one, and tried to make an early wagon out of nothing. Since then, he's scummed up the thread at every turn.

I think you'll find that once you take into consideration the correct interpretation of the "this vote is not random" post, everything I've said makes more sense.

[Pine]

Not necessarily, but early bandwagons, and being early onto those wagons, can deflect attention away from you. Had Toon done it a bit more subtly, it would have worked. The clumsy way it was done was more suggestive of scum than the vote itself, really.

[Pine]

Example

There's at least one more, but it's ongoing.

[Pine]

I have no real opinion on SZS's wagon, one way or the other. They haven't done anything to make me especially suspicious of them, but neither have they given off any town tells.

The wagon on me is a pressure wagon, based in part on an admittedly-awkward post. I'm not especially concerned about it, because I'm secure in the knowledge that I'm Town and that fact will show itself in time.

[Pine]

I've gotta be honest here...I'm almost completely stumped. I've seen no strong tells or slips from anyone, and the suspicion I have of Toon is pretty weak. Can the people with strong reads make a case or two?

[Pine]

Care to explain?

[Pine]

@Mastin2, you think that Pine never explaining his random vote as how SubzeroSith did isn't scummy anymore?

Wait, what didn't I explain?

And mastin, isn't it clear by now that I vote for who I want, when I want, often for reasons not accounted for in your VCA theory? Your VCAs have an absolutely TERRIBLE track record with me, and for that reason I am loathe to give them any real credence in predicting others.

[Pine]

They could be bussing scumbuddies who have gotten in too deep and now have to "steer into the skid" in order to pull out.

Silver, on the other hand, is displaying a significant departure from the very pro-town behavior I'm used to from TWBB.

Unvote
Vote: Silver

[Pine]

*anti-bussing high five*

The fervor with which Silver insisted he'd never had a scum vs scum argument (implying he never would) seemed forced.

[Pine]

^L-2

I read the "One for one trade" line of Silver's as a town-by-repetition attempt by Silver. On the other hand, the argument between Silver and Sub struck me as distinctly not Town vs Town. I just couldn't put my finger on who until I considered Silver's performance in TWBB. For that reason, if he does flip Town, I'd be inclined to go with his advice and at least put the pressure on Sub tomorrow.

[Pine]

"from his posts" is not an explanation. It's half-assing one and hoping no-one calls you on it.
If you're going to call someone scum, you quote posts and point what's scummy out, right?
Do the same if you're going to call someone town.

No. I agree that leaving it at "from his posts" wasn't enough, but generally you

don't

want to spell out precisely why. Often, it comes from picking up on Town PR tells that you hope scum didn't see, and explaining in exacting detail why someone is Town makes them a

target

. Town doesn't do that to Town.

Like I said, in this situation I agree with you. If I were Town going down in flames and about to be mislynched, I'd be doing everything in my power to get my reads out there, especially my strong reads. When I flipped Town, they'd have extra weight and get looked at again.

The fact that Silver isn't doing so is further evidence against him, and throwing out WIFOM-laden statements like that is almost a scumclaim.

[Pine]

WTF are you talking about?

[Pine]

^@Silver

[Pine]

Soon? It's been 10 days, and we already have at least one strong lead for D2, as well as other based on Silver's flip. There've been a lot of connections between people drawn, I'm comfortable moving on.

Then again, I'm accustomed to very short days, so I might be biased.

[Pine]

Semi-V/LA until tomorrow night. I'll get to Maxous's question then.

Noticed something from Vote Count. Mastin and Silver cannot be scumbuddies. Mastin's meta and obsession with VCA would not allow him to be on the secondary wagon with a buddy. If/when SIlver flips scum, Mastin is confirmed Town in my eyes.

[Pine]

More votes on Silver please. It's time. We're getting into that phase where productivity drops and we just start tearing at each other and messing with non-tells while scum sit back in either resignation or satisfaction.

[Pine]

Mastin's refusal to help with Silver's inevitable lynch is major scumpoints if Silver flips Town. Why? Because Mastin helped the Silver wagon develop, then abandoned it for townpoints on the not-going-to-happen-today counter-wagon when it became (probably) unstoppable. I've played with Mastin before, this kind of "go against expectations" style is like him.

[Pine]

Mastin, we've played together enough, and we have similar enough styles, that I feel I can be frank with you. I have those gut feelings too, and I can (and have) faked gut feelings of that nature as well. I know what it's like when they're real, and I know what it's like when they're fake.

I'm not having a gut feeling (in either direction at this point) on Silver. I'm going on interpretation of evidence.

I

am

having a gut feeling that

your

gut read is a fake one.

[Pine]

^Also not Silver and mastin

[Pine]

^Hmm. Worded awkwardly. Just reminding you that Silver and mastin cannot be scum together.

[Pine]

UNVOTE: Silver
VOTE: SubZeroSith
Bah. I don't have time to fully consider the ramifications of this.

I do note that this use of a claimed cop power is in

direct

contradiction to mastin's article about cops, but I find it extremely difficult to believe that he'd fakeclaim as scum. Town gambit on a strong gut read, maybe. Have to think about this. Looks like we're headed for a no-lynch.

[Pine]

No real choice, DK. Cop claims, you follow the cop's lead until there's a solid reason to do otherwise.

Mastin, can you explain why you investigated someone who was, at the time, a strong scumread for you? How is that in line with your discussion article on cop methodology?

[Pine]

Wait, plurality lynches are in this game?

[Pine]

Nah, he's on my scumlist too. Second behind the Silver/SubzeroSith pairing, in fact.

However, with Silver being tentatively cleared by Mastin, my earlier strong read that one or both of {Silver, SubzeroSith} being scum takes precedence. Depending on flip, NK, and new developments, I'll be up for a Toon lynch on D2.

[Pine]

A few things...

First, Pine's vote is TERRIBLE. He has agreed with us (ICE and I) on both Toon and Silver, <useless ongoing drivel for a full paragraph>

Seriously? You're trying to wipe your scum onto me? I have never voted

with

you. I voted for Silver for my own reasons, following my own logic. It's shit like this that make me certain that your argument with Silver was not Town v. Town. You both employed tactics like this, which are really just elaborate ad hominems and misrepresentation, and at first no one could tell which of you was bad scum and which of you was bad Town. I chose Silver based on his performance in a previous game, and I'm glad that Mastin has now set us back on the right track. It now occurs to me that as soon as the Silver wagon picked up speed, you mostly dropped off the radar. Now suspicion is back onto you in earnest, and you pick up your old scumtactics.

You're the lynch today, and with deadline fast approaching and plurality rules in effect, I'd like to hear a claim out of you.

[Pine]

With less than 24 hours to deadline, with plurality lynch rules and three sizable wagons (including the votes standing on Silver) no one is likely to GET to L-1. So SZS, if you have a claim that you think will clarify your Towniness, now is the time to make it.

[Pine]

A few things...

First, Pine's vote is TERRIBLE. He has agreed with us (ICE and I) on both Toon and Silver, <useless ongoing drivel for a full paragraph>

Seriously? You're trying to wipe your scum onto me? I have never voted

with

you. I voted for Silver for my own reasons, following my own logic. It's shit like this that make me certain that your argument with Silver was not Town v. Town. You both employed tactics like this, which are really just elaborate ad hominems and misrepresentation, and at first no one could tell which of you was bad scum and which of you was bad Town. I chose Silver based on his performance in a previous game, and I'm glad that Mastin has now set us back on the right track. It now occurs to me that as soon as the Silver wagon picked up speed, you mostly dropped off the radar. Now suspicion is back onto you in earnest, and you pick up your old scumtactics.

You're the lynch today, and with deadline fast approaching and plurality rules in effect, I'd like to hear a claim out of you.

Simply the most recent post in which I comment on the Silver vs SZS suspicion.

[Pine]

That was in response to this:

Pine, Toon Fighter, Surye, DeityKabuto

Players who haven't yet justified why one of silver/SZ had to be scum.

Mastin

Player who claims an either/or and won't even back me on it. What is your case for SZ, really? I bet it's gak. Let's lynch Amor.

[Pine]

Where'd you get "bad logic" from "ad hominem attacks" and "discrediting instead of analysis"?

Thor=

[Pine]

Ad hom is a tactic of destroying an opponent's credibility instead of meeting their arguments in a reasonable manner. It has nothing to do with logic, because it avoids engaging in actual debate.

My vote will remain on SZS, because my conviction about them is older and stronger than my new suspicion of you. If/when they flip scum, you'll gain a huge number of scumpoints for chainsawing.

PE: Also, chainsaw is NOT just a scumtactic. It's largely only used by scum, but can also be the tool of Town defending a strong Townread, Mason defending their buddy, Cop defending an innocent, etc. I'm

really

not liking how you routinely take my words out of context and misrepresent me.

I have a null read on Amor. The wagon on him kind of came out of nowhere. I need to read up on him specifically, so I'll get back to you.

[Pine]

UNVOTE: SZS
I'm at a loss for words. BOTH Silver and SZS are Town? What nonsense is this? Obviously, unless Thor or Jmurph contradict the Mason claim, we're not lynching SZS.

Also, this completely explains the chainsaw defense of SZS given by Thor. I do not apologize for the accusation, as the chainsaw defense WAS employed, and in one of the few Town scenarios.

VOTE: Toon

My only remaining strong scumread, though I'm willing to hear a case on Amor (or read one that someone links me to). I admit that I have been tunnelling a bit and have ignored half the players in the thread.

PE: I think we've both got our wires crossed. I was thinking the same about you. Call it a draw for now and move on? If you can produce a full Amor case I'd be happy to read it.

[Pine]

Why? Maybe it's 1 AM speaking, but I don't recall you ever giving a good reason for your vocal opposition to Toon's lynch.

[Pine]

Yes, Mastin, you've said that for a while. But WHY is Toon a Town read?

Thor, it's 1:20 AM. I'm barely coherent enough to respond to new stuff, certainly not sifting through 20 pages of material.

[Pine]

Fuck it. I'm willing to trust Mastin on this. Not counting confirmed Town roles, he only has two strong town reads, and one of them (me) I know to be correct. That confidence on Toon has shaken mine, so I'm banking on Mastin being pretty on-target this game.

UNVOTE: Toon
VOTE: Amor

[Pine]

Alrighty then. After being near-stagnant for weeks, we're finally moving along at a good pace.

Amor, if you wanted a chance to claim, now's the time.

[Pine]

See, that post makes me think that the presumably-impossible might actually be true; that scum claimed Mason, and dragged their buddies along with them. Buddies have no choice but to go along, but aren't really afraid because who's going to lynch the claimed Masons?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not actually advocating we lynch one and see. That would be a catastrophic waste of Town resources against the minute chance that SZS was that stupid. It's just that that post struck me as so ridiculously scummy that it's making me contemplate the unlikely.

[Pine]

Well, for starters, you set out to character-assassinate and discredit the claimed daycop, criticize him for saving us from a mislynch, express concern only with yourself, continue to push against two nigh-confirmed Townies, and the whole post just reeks to high heaven.

I haven't drunk any kool-aid. Mastin and I disagree on so much across so many games, this is actually the first where I think we're both Town and we agree on most things. Why does it bother you so much to have people outside your clique agreeing with each other?

[Pine]

Mastin, an investigation of the claimed Masons wouldn't be wasted, I think. Normally I'd say investigating Masons would be, but you're likely to die soonish, and confirming three Townies in one go would be a great way to go out.

[Pine]

1: Please point out where we have slandered, libeled, denigrated, or otherwise put down Mastin as a person. We've never called him names, never been uncivil, and criticizing his play is fair game. Just because someone is a PR doesn't mean you should blindly follow their lead.

Your whole post is an attack on Mastin. You are very careful not to insult or personally attack him, but everything you said (and much of what you have said since) are attempts to dismiss or discredit him, his reads, and the results of his investigation.

Why

are you doing this?

2: We don't know yet that Mastin saved us from a mislynch. If we still mess up and lynch town today, we're in a WAY worse situation than before Mastin's claim.

Are you

high

? Cop. Cop has innocent. Confirmed mislynch <

possible

mislynch

3: Whut? We've been selfish...how? By fighting tooth and nail against the town lynching a PR?

Here's the quote:

Furthermore, it would have been a

much

better move to investigate me instead. Should we have investigated scum, you could have easily said "I investigated them, and they are scum" and we would have been lynched. We would have shown town, at which point you say "alright, I don't see town going force with a SZS lynch today, so I'll vote someone else."

So...Mastin should have spent his daycop power on someone who wasn't the leading lynch? Instead, he used it on someone who he had a gut feeling was about to be mislynched, confirmed them, and saved us from mislynching?

4: Which two? And don't say Mastin. He's not confirmed town, not by a long shot.

I was talking about you and your Masonbuddies. The fact that you subconsciously, absent-mindedly don't include you and your buddies in the confirmed Townie category is

extremely

suspicious.

5: Because if Mastin is who he says he is, I think you're probscum buddying up to a town PR so that he doesn't investigate you.

This is a good point, despite the fact that it is predicated on something that isn't true. The reality is that I'm agreeing with Mastin, someone I've played with many times and have a good feel on, on one or two issues.

[Pine]

^

@Mod: Can you fix the quote tag?

<3

[Pine]

@Maxous: I didn't say the three of them were gambiting together. I said that I had a tinfoil hat suspicion that SZS made an incredibly stupid claim, and his buddies had to back it.

And in that case, it's entirely likely that they'd all survive. Vig probably won't want to kill them, they won't kill themselves, Town won't lynch them, all they have to fear is SKs, being cc-ed by real Masons (would have happened by now) and tinfoil hat theories.

The odds of this being true are pretty remote though, which is why I haven't pushed it in the slightest.

[Pine]

^Rolefishing

FoS: NS

[Pine]

Anyone else see it?

[Pine]

I don't think it's a stretch at all.

[Pine]

I looked over the DK case in the night and it has merit. I require explanation of why Toon is Town to you, Mastin. A summary will do, you hide behind ephemeral walls more often than not. More later with analysis, posting from phone.

VOTE: Deity Kabuto

[Pine]

Yeah, with the exception of Toon and maybe Mastin, this feels like an all-Town wagon

[Pine]

I have no issue with the early claim. L-2 claims make much more sense than L-1 claims overall.

The claim itself...I'd hate to quicklynch a claimed PR with other good choices for pressure (Toon, Mastin). I'll think about it while I mow the lawn.

[Pine]

Nah, screw it. I'll counter-claim. I was debating whether a Jailkeeper and Roleblocker could exist together, hence my hesitancy without an unvote. I rather doubt it. Especially as DK's claimed rolename was "Roleblocker" while describing a Jailkeeper's role.

I am a Town Roleblocker. Deity Kabuto is fakeclaiming.

[Pine]

We should lynch all of DKs claimed scumbuddies. WIFOM-tastic with claiming scumbuddies, bleh.

[Pine]

@nhammen: I targeted Uite. He's been very lurky and I had few other leads. Like with cop-investigation, I think it's more likely that scum would send their lurkiest member to make the kill. Remember in TWBB how we always sent you to make the kill?

As for lynching the claimed scumbuddies, we have mislynches to spare and we won't know for sure whether he was WIFOMing or not until they flip. I'm comfortable taking one for the team, and RB is pretty weak and can work against Town if I make the wrong choice.

PE: I agree with Maxous

[Pine]

Yes, Surye, it does sound survivalist of you.

[Pine]

No, my suggestion is to call his bluff.

Why are you so concerned with your personal survival? I can see DK naming a buddy to try and clear them, and I think it's you, and now you're flipping your shit at it backfiring.

[Pine]

Shut up, scum.

What questions did I ignore, Surye? How it helps Town? I answered that. I find it increasingly likely that he included you in an attempt to clear you. Added to others' suspicions, I think you're our next lynch (or vig)

PE: Mastin who did you investigate?

[Pine]

Mastin is not a daycop. A real daycop wouldn't risk their result being lost. He's gambiting, but whether as Town or as scum, I'm not sure

PE: How, Toon?

[Pine]

I'd like to see Mastin vig'd. He hardclaimed daycop, then just softclaimed something like Oracle. One of those is not true. Further, his hardclaimed daycop role just simply doesn't operate as he just implied.

[Pine]

NO, Nobody Special. Take everything Mastin says about his meta with a bucket of salt. Part of his meta IS TO RIDE ON META. He uses reputation as a weapon to enhance his reads and words. I've played what? Almost half a dozen games with him now? I'll sift through what he said and comment when I get home.

Bad NS. You don't take people at their word, or at face value in this game.

[Pine]

I didn't suggest half the things you just said, NS, and I damn sure didn't misrep you. Reread your own 628 and try to understand my worry.

[Pine]

Yes please.

[Pine]

Scratch that, I'd prefer we wait on the hammer. I'd rather have your reads available to us before we go into night, as if you get NKed, we'd lose those insights.

[Pine]

Also: In light of the above, I will treat hammering before NS has posted his analysis to be tantamount to a scumclaim.

I thought I told you to shut up, scum.

[Pine]

Confirmation bias absolutely

defines

Mastin's play, both Town and scum. When scum he feigns the Townie tunnel vision, hiding behind his own meta to support it.

[Pine]

VOTE: Mastin

Daycop with a standard cop in play? I think not.

[Pine]

Oh, I roleblocked Surye last night, thinking he might be scum or our SK. Fat lot of good that seems to have done.

[Pine]

I counter-claimed DK's claim of Roleblocker. That's how he got lynched.

[Pine]

Mastin only panic-walls like this as caught scum. His Town walls are far more organized and don't contradict themselves so much. I mean, how many times can he say that we need to lynch me, then follow it up with calling me Town? Why'd he stick his neck put for Silver and now push him? He's bussing Silver for emergency Town points.

And I was early on both Amor and DK. Mastin is well aware that I don't believe in bussing without a compelling reason

[Pine]

How did all of you catch KoC as Cop? I completely missed it, probably because I'm not fishing.

VCA is a bullshit method of scumhunting. It takes into account only some of the objective facts, and none of the subjective factors.

Why are you not lynching Mastin? He fakeclaimed Cop, causing the real cop to say something that got him killed, and saved someone from being lynched that almost half the thread wanted dead.

This is a gambit from Mastin. A scum gambit. And you people are over-thinking it.

PE: Mastin, why am I scum if Silver flips Town? You've said that a few times now, but have not adequately explained it. Flail more, scum.

[Pine]

Mastin has a history and a meta of bussing his scumbuddies as soon as he can feasibly make it happen, just to evoke that exact reaction from Town.

However, that quote from KoC is more evidence in Mastin's favor than your entire argument. It suggests that KoC likely investigated Mastin on Night 1, and as he didn't bring Mastin down on D2, and the GF is accounted for, Mastin is probably clean.

UNVOTE: Mastin

[Pine]

VCA is NOT a tool to get initial reads. It is something you should be using to back up your gut reads, not the other way around. I've played with you in what? Five game now? And every SINGLE time, the results of your VCA have proven to be wrong. You use VCA alone to find your scum, and then interpret the subjective evidence in whatever light you feel best supports those conclusions. Not once have I ever seen you decide the results of your VCA were wrong until they were proven wrong, at which point you glibly wave off the error.

Christ, Mastin, how many times do you have to come to an incorrect conclusion about me to just decide to stop trying? Every time I'm Town, you declare me scum. Every time I'm scum, you declare me innocent. At this point, it might be better to take whatever reads you have on me and just do the opposite.

On the other hand, I've got you pegged, I think. I've played with you enough to recognize your gambits, and it isn't like you tried very hard to pretend you were serious about it. The reason I figured your gambit quickly, which you conveniently forget to repeat in your quotes, is that investigating Silver flies completely in the face of your Cop strategy manifesto.

What you say about KoC's investigation, however, is likely accurate. And given that, it throws the question of your guilt or innocence back into play. Personally, I think we're better off hanging you and knowing for sure. You play games with Town, deceive, and are superlatively manipulative. And that is anti-Town. Hell, your eagerness to kill Mafia and unconcern might even make you our Serial Killer.

VOTE: Mastin

[Pine]

Really? Call them now, with all four possibilities. Silver Town, Silver Scum, Pine Town, Pine Scum. My guess is that you are, as always, stalling for time and space to concoct your labyrinthine, content-devoid posts. You make them, cap them with TL;DR statements, and people believe you because you appear to have done your research.

Appear to.

And what are these mysterious connections you keep alluding to? You've made the classic argument from repetition that a Silver or Pine flip will help you solve everything, but have never explained how that would happen, despite direct questions being asked of you to that end.

[Pine]

So, in other words, you haven't completed any analysis, but you already know the result of it.

jmurph, you've been had by an expert manipulator.

Confirm Vote: Mastin

[Pine]

But that's impossible, Mastin! Your reads are flawless.

Can you people start actually reading his posts? YET AGAIN he advocates lynching a Town read and someone he once stuck his neck out for (while lying to Town). And he STILL doesn't explain HOW either of us dying would generate information.

You know whose death would be informative? Mastin's.

[Pine]

I'm sorry for checking in so late, I've been sick for the past few days. Anyway, reading up on Today's posts, there's one player who gives me a really strong gut scumread. I find it hard to explain, but nearly every post seems to be written from a scum perspective. Who am I talking about? Well:

VOTE: jmurph3

^Is not reading the thread and is fabricating his reads. jmurph is confirmed as the only surviving Mason.

Perhaps this scumslip will provide us with the compromise we need for today's lynch.

Unvote
Vote: Uite

[Pine]

I'm pretty lost at this point, but I definitely don't see Silver's current attitude coming from scum.

Uite or Mastin are much better lynches

[Pine]

I don't remember why, and can't efficiently look it up on my phone (see sig), but I recall something more or less clearing Toon.

[Pine]

And I don't trust you farther than I can throw you, Mastin. And this is the Internets, I can't throw you at all.

If Mastin's the one who cleared him, it's worth exploring.

[Pine]

And yet, Mastin, you STILL have yet to explain that assertion. And seeing as Silver is almost certainly Town at this point, it's simply wrong.

NS, for Mastin and I to be buddies would require that we both bussed both our buddies, then each other for a "There can be only one" scenario. That's Mastin's style, but not mine. I abhor bussing.

Not to mention that it's absolutely fucking suicidal with an SK out there.

Refer to TWBB, where we repeatedly discussed bussing, and I refused, ultimately pulling out a perfect scum win with my whole team intact alive.

[Pine]

Get off of Silver. I don't see Silverscum doing what he's done lately, his frustration is real.

Mastin or Uite should be our lynch today.

[Pine]

Why?

Seriously, NO ONE has provided any semblance of a case against me. The Townies amongst this crowd moving have been persuaded by Mastin's constant barrage of arguments through repetition, and the scum amngst you are taint advantage of it.

Produce the case, Mastin.

[Pine]

No. Silver is Town.

Someone other than Maxous or Mastin explain to me why we haven't been looking at Maxous lately? I seem to recall some very circumstantial evidence early on giving him some "clear for now" credit, but nothing since. Same goes for Mr. Zepher.

[Pine]

Why do you believe silver is town, Pine?

I don't see this attitude coming from scum. I've seen scum vote for themselves, hell I've BEEN that scum. They don't push their hammer and annoy the shit out of people looking to die. I've played with Silver-Town before, and this looks like when he gets frustrated. I'm distinctly reminded of the last day of TWBB when he went batshit crazy.

The Townies amongst this crowd moving have been persuaded by Mastin's constant barrage of arguments through repetition, and the scum amngst you are taint advantage of it.

Who/what scum are taking advantage of it?
Re - post 759 : Do

you

have a reason to think that I am mafia? Or Mr.Zepher? Why did you mention that?

TBH, I've got no fucking clue. The only real scumreads I have are on Uite (mostly gut) and Mastin (which I've explained). I mentioned you and Zepher because you've received almost no scrutiny since D1, and that makes me uneasy.

[Pine]

Hrm...Mastin as third party would indeed make a lot of sense, and would explain his weird (even for Mastin) behavior.

[Pine]

And now that it isn't gaining traction, you're backing off of it. Interesting.

[Pine]

Invert the findings? Lolno. That only makes sense if you assume that all scum are out to bus the shit out of their partners. Which, as previously mentioned, is fucking suicidal in a game with an SK or every-night vig.

You're stuck in your scum mindset, Mastin. Not everyone is fratricidal.

[Pine]

Mastin as SK makes more and more sense as I think about it. I mean, it sounds like he was trying to bait the Mafia NK onto him, presumably because he's bulletproof, in order to have only one N1 kill and conceal his presence for a while.

Tinfoil hat territory, I know, but dealing with third parties is always like that. Hell, dealing with Mastin is like that, too. SK Mastin? Yeesh.

[Pine]

In an oblique way, Mastin, yes. Your odd play style and its combination of very-Townie observations and very-Scum actions/gambits makes reading you a lot like judging a third party.

This time though, I suspect you actually are an SK. Particularly the glib "That doesn't make sense, no." response you gave when it was first proposed. You act pretty cool and collected when correctly identified, and that fits it perfectly.

[Pine]

Nope. He just doesn't care who dies as long as it isn't him.

[Pine]

Again, why? When the hell is someone going to provide an actual case against me?

I'm starting to seriously get pissed off about this.

[Pine]

Oh fuck off. That makes no sense whatsoever.

For me to be scum, I'd have to have bussed my Godfather on D1 when there were other viable lynches available and counterclaimed my scumbuddy.

Bearing in mind that I am well-established to be vehemently against bussing.

[Pine]

Bussing is an outdated, almost antiquated strategy. People actively look for it entirely too much nowadays for it to be of any practical value outside of special situations. Not to mention that for every buddy you bus, you have to achieve an additional mislynch to get to LyLo. Take TWBB, for example. That game would have gone on for at least two or three more day phases had we been bussing each other, and we probably would not have survived, as the Town was getting extremely close to discovering some of our members. Instead, we held together, mostly ignored one another, and managed a perfect scum victory.

I don't bus unless there's an absolutely compelling reason to, and there wasn't for either Amor or DK.

PE: I was personally on the lynches of both flipped scum so far, NS, and was instrumental in bringing one of them down. Try again.

[Pine]

What the hell is that?

[Pine]

An incomplete explanation is not helpful. How does one interpret it, and more to the point, how does one misinterpret it as badly as Uite seems to?

[Pine]

Ahh. Then, like, all VCAs, it's an ineffective attempt to introduce mathematics and statistical analysis into a setting where they don't belong.

I'll be wholly disregarding it and any results from it as bunk. Especially considering the source.

Quoted for ease of ISOing me. Forgot I was still in hydra mode.

[Pine]

When VCA is used first, it is the basis for tunneling and justifying all evidence to fit that view.

When VCA is used to support an existing case, it is bent and twisted to justify that existing case.

Statistics, and VCA is just that, can be made to do whatever you want them to.

[Pine]

I've had a bad experience with VCAs, largely at Mastin's hand. Probably because with my voting habits and tendencies, VCAs tend to pick me out as guilty when I'm Town. Uite's is a good example. I recklessly jump my vote around a lot until I elicit a reaction that I can get a rock-solid read from. Viewed subjectively, it's clear what I'm doing. Viewed through purely-objective, impersonal number crunching, it looks suspect.

ANY tool which fails to take significant factors into account, particularly critical analysis or subjective context, is fatally flawed.

That's why I don't like ISO analysis either, and only really use it to look for specific things, like whether or not a person interacts with someone specific.

[Pine]

We probably have a Doc, considering we have a Cop and Roleblocker. Doc completes the set of standard Town PRs.

Warning: Setup speculation ahead!

Given the flavor and how prepared quadz was with that Police cruiser tricycle, there's gotta be an ambulance tricycle in the setup.

I wouldn't say 'no' to a Doc protecting me, as I'm likely the next strongest Town PR left, and the only claimed one.

[Pine]

He actually has explained himself. Over the last couple of pages he's declared almost everyone clear. I don't have the time nor inclination to look it up, but I believe you and NS are the only ones he hasn't.

UNVOTE: Uite
VOTE: Nobody Special

The role slip in his chart looks genuine, but could be a calculated "town slip". Enough to let him go for now.

[Pine]

I owe you an apology, Zepher. 822 was written entirely from memory. I just looked through Maxous's ISO, trying to disprove your 823, and found that you're absolutely right. Prior to this, Maxous had not expressed more than mild suspicion of you, and up until 803 was calling you Town.

UNVOTE: NS
VOTE: Maxous

NS and Mastin are also good lynches, but a contradiction like that...I'm not going to let it go.

[Pine]

WTF are you talking about, Zepher?

Are you thinking that was a breadcrumb of some sort? It wasn't.

[Pine]

What the fu...Get off of Silver you nitwits.

Mastin remaining on the Silver BW almost confirms him as some kind of scum. Mastin isn't that dumb. The rest of you apparently are.

[Pine]

Except for the fact that you'd still be alive, and Toon isn't actually cleared.

I keep forgetting the KoC/NS connection. Entirely because NS's play has been singularly unhelpful to Town.

[Pine]

^Town-directing scum.

[Pine]

I'm so sick and frustrated by this day, I'm tempted to hammer Silver just to get some new information to work with. Then I remind myself that there's almost no chance that Silver is actually scum, so I'd rather lynch from the likely-to-be-scum list {Maxous, Mastin, maybe Toon or nhamman}.

Get your head in the game, Town.

Silver, take your vote off yourself and participate in a positive manner or replace out. You are NOT working towards your wincon right now.

[Pine]

Mastin remaining on the Silver BW almost confirms him as some kind of scum. Mastin isn't that dumb. The rest of you apparently are.

Yet your last 3 votes were not on Mastin.

Because this pants-on-head Town has made it pretty clear that they're going to continue to be stupid regarding Mastin for a while. If you've actually been reading this thread, and from your mostly-intelligent discourse I

know

you have, you should know that I have not, at any point since day start, let up about Mastin at all and have been voting to push my secondary scumreads. The above quote is a blatant strawman attack.

likely-to-be-scum list {Maxous, Mastin, maybe Toon or nhamman}.

So you explained mastin..kinda explained Toon.
From what I can gather your suspicion of me is based on voting Zepher, when I called him likely town earlier(which seems to be a misunderstanding here). and I don't remember seeing anything on nhammen from you. That list seems odd from you.[/quote]
How is it odd? I've been very clear on why you and Mastin (the "misunderstanding" was a major slip), and I've been going back and forth on Toon since Day 1. Adding nhamman to the list was largely spur-of-the-moment, and due largely to his recent string of odd posts. In other words, good job, you noticed that a game-long null read of mine has just recently dropped below the ambivalence threshold.

Maxous is a Meh lynch. Currently, Maxous is my # 3. (Not sure whether nhammen or Zepher would be # 4. Other's obviously # 5.)

In a game with probably two scum left, your #3 is NEVER a "meh" lynch. It's a "not my favorite, but I'd like to see them hang" lynch. You're better than you're playing, which makes you scum of some kind.

[Pine]

In other words, you have no strong scumreads, but are willing to push hard on two people who are both Town and mostly ignore your 3 & 4 suspects, despite having admitted that at least one of your top two is probably Town. See if you can do the math. By your "logic," we hit one scum out of me and Silver. Only THEN do we pursue your hitherto-barely-mentioned next choices?

This is straight-up bad Townplay. To a degree I've never seen actually come from Mastin.

If there's even a hint of support for a Mastin lynch, I'll be on it in a heartbeat.

[Pine]

Regarding nhamman: I'm not certain what it is, exactly. It's mostly a gut sense of unease about his last two posts. I can't put my finger on it. In a game like this, where I have shit for reads outside my top two, pure gut reads make it into my top four :-/

[Pine]

How have I misinterpreted anything about the votes? I haven't actually started analysing yet, and have said so. It this stage, it's just a big heap of data.

I was referring to the incorrect interpretation you gave of me as scum. I admit that statement was a bit biased, as you were one of my top suspects at the time.

Uite's 860 is goodposting, though I agree that Toon is not a viable lynch for today. Mastin or Maxous are the correct choices, in that order.

[Pine]

Explain your VCA assertion. You seem to like the Argument From Repetition strategy when you're scum.

Oh, and you're right, scum NEVER push their buddies as counter-wagons when they're about to go down. Godfathers

certainly

never do this. [/massivesarcasm]

[Pine]

UNVOTE: Maxous
VOTE: Mastin2

Fuck this noise. This is the only lynch I will happily accept. If the day is dragging out unreasonably and one of my other top three is viable, I'll consider it. But Mastin is hands-down the best lynch choice for today.

[Pine]

@nham: The reason for SK Mastin over Scum Mastin is his pursuit of Amor and DK. That said, Mastin has been known to bus the shit out of his scumbuddies, so meh. It's mostly that I can't really see a partner for him.

[Pine]

If you're scum and playing THIS BADLY, then by all means stay. [/translation]

Seriously, if you're Town you need to step up your game. You are not currently playing to Town wincon, and haven't been for a while.

[Pine]

Explain how advocating your own lynch was pro-Town.

I've been in situations where I felt that the oppositional way I'd been arguing with scum warranted my lynch, as a Town flip from me would prove my intentions and take scum with me. You've shown nothing of the kind.

The only Town role I can think of that might benefit from being lynched is Oracle. Is that in the normal guidelines? Explain yourself, Silver

[Pine]

Hi, Pine. You should come in here. I'm scum, bussing my buddy! (You still believe that, right, Pine?)

If the shoe fits...and it does.

What fits even more is you as SK and Maxous as Mafia. I could see any number of buddies for Maxous, but none for you.

[Pine]

-Pine

Explain how advocating your own lynch was pro-Town.

Stops the town or certain players from having a hard on for me?

Gives Mastin some "major info" ?

Stops me from major posting and getting the town bored again?

(Please note this was at the time)

This does not answer the question. Hence why I keep asking.

[Pine]

If you want Town to stop tunneling you then BE PRODUCTIVE. Mislynch that doesn't produce needed information is NOT proTown.

[Pine]

I fully intend to be blocking Mastin tonight, pursuant to my Mastin-as-SK theory.

So, you know. If you're actually a PGO an just being an ass, now's the time to say.

[Pine]

Unvote
Vote:Maxous

Mastin is obviously and unfortunately not going to happen. My #2 suspect will more than suffice as we approach deadline.

That is L-1. Hammering before Maxous claims will be taken as a scum claim, unless Maxous is reticent with less than 24 hours to go.

[Pine]

So Zepher, I'm curious. If you didn't want to see Maxous lynched, and my honorary vote was already out and declared as my #2 choice, why the hell did you vote in the first place?

[Pine]

Okay, as we start to head into a lynch, I need to clarify something.

@Mastin: Are you a PGO? I intend to be roleblocking you, and I checked with quadz. PGO will kill a Roleblocker.

[Pine]

Not if he were hoping to catch scum with it. Now that we know the Daycop claim was fake, that "No one protect me, let scum kill me" bit at the end of D1 was a huge PGO softclaim.

[Pine]

Umm, again, if we have a Doc, protection would be nice, seeing as I'm functioning as an ad hoc cop/watcher or something.

[Pine]

WTF? Neither of them are claimed power roles. Jmurph is essentially just a VT now, and NS is unknown and not actually confirmed.

You're right, Mastin. You're really obvious as scum.

[Pine]

You never were. Mastin is full of shit

[Pine]

Your idea is asinine, Mastin. If I get killed, it proves WHAT? That I WAS a threat after all? Oh well, now we know we can trust Pine, but he's dead, so THE THREAT IS ENDED. It's like you said "Don't protect the Cop that doesn't have any results yet. If he dies, we'll know we can trust his future results."

What shitty logic.

[Pine]

I know exactly what you're getting at, Mastin. I just think it's stupid to play those games and disagree with you.

Bah. We'll discuss it in post-game. Suffice to say I think your logic I flawed and perhaps born of scummy intent.

[Pine]

I was under the impression that was a lynch.

[Pine]

Good god, people. Way to fail.

I expect better out of you, especially Mastin.

Fake hammer /fail

[Pine]

I'd accept Mastin today, Maxous tomorrow (or vig), but aren't we approaching deadline?

[Pine]

For this slow-ass, indecisive Town, that's pretty close to deadline.

[Pine]

You're a funny drunk, jmurph.

I agree somewhat about nhamman, but Silver is Town. Not sure where you see the Silver/nham dichotomy.

Dichotomy is a fun word. You should try to say it three times fast if you're reading this and still drunk.

[Pine]

UNVOTE: Maxous
VOTE: Mastin

Gogogo

[Pine]

^L-2

[Pine]

^L-1

Claim required out of Mastin. Hammering will be regarded as a scumclaim.

[Pine]

I don't bus, NS. I just straight-up don't believe in it.

[Pine]

I haven't decided. I think I won't declare, for if I did, the remaining scum could just choose not to have that person perform the kill.

[Pine]

First of all, I've always maintained that I thought Mastin more likely to be third party than main scum team.

Second, until that question was posed to me on the spot, I hadn't given any thought at all to it. I decided early in the day to block Mastin. So in the thirty seconds between reading the question and typing the reply, I was still in the "two scum and one SK left" mindset.

Now that I've had a while to think on it, I think NS is second most likely to be SK, as he's cop-cleared but unforgivably scummy, Maxous is A good choice to block, as are you and nham. Zepher's a more distant candidate.

Simply put, I haven't considered it much at all, and today's flip will be very important in the decision. I'll have all night to ponder the pros and cons of each option.

[Pine]

Could be a vig. But better to assume the worst, then your surprises are pleasant ones.

[Pine]

Besides, if it's an SK instead of a vig, we can no longer afford to not search for them. SKs are often bulletproof, so hoping for a crosskill isn't likely. Gotta lynch an SK.

Mastin and NS are the most likely suspects.

[Pine]

I don't see a claim in there, scum.

[Pine]

VOTE: Toon Fighter

I roleblocked Toon and no second kill happened. Mafia scum or SK scum.

Short day ahoy!

[Pine]

I didn't believe the claim. It's SK-posing-as-vig, or scum posing as vig.

Look at the kills. None of them were pro-Town [/opinion]

[Pine]

Roleblocking you may have been wrong-headed and a bad choice, but with Mastin dead, it was down to NS or you. You claimed vig, and I just don't see it.

I forgot about Surye, though, that was a good kill. It would have been good from any alignment, though, and I don't see Wraith as a legitimate vig. He hadn't done anything to warrant it, and there were far better options at that time.

Explain why you killed Wraith.

[Pine]

"down to NS or you"...as my top suspects for SK, which is the kill I was trying to prevent. I forgot about this game a bit and had to make a last-second decision when quadz poked me 2 hours before deadline asking for my choice. It was perhaps ill-considered.

Whatever.

UNVOTE: Toon
VOTE: Maxous

Almost as good, and just as certain.

[Pine]

Because it was a mistake, plain and simple.

[Pine]

I blocked Uite and Surye. Uite was a fishing expedition, Surye because we all thought he was scum.

We should lynch Maxous, though NS is a good alternate. I'd still like to see Toon die before LyLo.

[Pine]

I don't want you in LyLo because your reads are terribad and I still think you might be a clever SK.

[Pine]

I was wondering how you leaped to the jailkeeper conclusion as well.

You stated that if I'm Town I'm most likely a Jailkeeper...but if I'm Town, then I have no reason to lie, and I've stated my role as Roleblocker, not JK. You don't make sense, sir, and neither does your explanation.

[Pine]

Also @nham: I'm more concerned with SK right now because the SK is basically a scumteam of one, whereas the Mafia is a team of 2 (maybe but not likely 3). Eliminating one of the night kills is simpler if you pursue the single-member faction.

I'm actually toying with writing up an article on MD about the benefits of hunting SKs right from the start alongside the Mafia. They should be treated as one-member scumteams, not as Townally-until-proven-otherwise. Thinking about this lately has made me paranoid about vig claims.

[Pine]

I've seen both Town JK and scum RB. Both recently.

In [REDACTED], that we're both involved with, there was a Town JK.

Unvote

Vote: Zepher

Apparent contradictions and scrambling to fix the mistake.

[Pine]

Zepher also hasn't had any decent pressure on him all game, and it's about damn time.

[Pine]

Interesting...no, I don't know that there's a better place for my vote.

I do notice you trying to head off suspicion of you, and nip a wagon in the bud before it forms, right down to redirecting attention to two more popular cases at the end of the post.

My vote stays where it is. A simple hunch has now turned into a real vote. Mastin was suspicious of you too.

[Pine]

Others? You mean like Maxous, NS, and Toon? All of whom I've pushed on before I ever really paid you much attention?

I'm really, really disliking your attempts to discredit my suspicion of you. They scream "Oh shit! Don't pay attention to me, look over there!"

[Pine]

I don't know if it was truly a mistake, Maxous. Toon was one of my top suspects (#3 after you and Mastin), and vig I the safest and most common claim of SKs. I'd rather him flip before LyLo, to prevent a Kingmaker situation, but I won't be blocking him again, he can still be useful to Town.

[Pine]

Max, my confused actions stem from the fact that I had such a solid SK-in-vig-clothing read on Toon at the beginning of the day, and not only does no one believe me, I'm getting a lot of flak for it.

For the record, I still don't trust Toon's claim. There is absolutely nothing to distinguish his actions from that of an SK. The fact that he wasn't killed overnight mean he probably isn't mafia, as the actual SK/vig would have shot him (I just realized this while typing).

[Pine]

If Toon is a vig, then blocking him was a mistake, period. If he's SK, blocking him was STILL probably a mistake, as he says he was gunning for you, Max. quadz PMed me just before deadline asking who to block, and I didn't consider the full ramifications of blocking my SK-suspect.

[Pine]

The flak I got for blocking Toon was indeed a factor in my backing down. People disagreeing with me I'm apt to ignore. The majority of the thread vociferously disagreeing and attacking me for it...I do no good and can't redeem myself if I get lynched. Besides, that much opposition to my read on Toon can't possibly be all scum, so someone's made a serious error somewhere. Whether it's me or all of you has yet to be seen, but I'm not going to win you over just by sticking to my guns.

Vote for Zepher instead. Bad reaction to pressure is bad.

[Pine]

I just ISO'd NS and I can totally see the case on him. Plus, his interactions with mastin/max may point to a Max/NS scum team.

unvote, vote: NS

The wagon on Pine is dying, and I prefer to have my vote on someone who is actually lynchable

What happened to "I will only accept a Pine or Maxous lynch"? Maxous is definitely lynchable.

[Pine]

You see Zepherscum now, Maxscum?

Your bussing is appreciated.

[Pine]

This fucking game

I just realized I have like, twice as many scumreads as we probably have scum.

[Pine]

Uite, NS, wagon on Zepher gogogo.

[Pine]

Wasn't asking them to blindly sheep, I was asking them to read my case against you and help me BUILD a wagon on you.

Nice try at deflecting. You're fond of that tactic, and I'm your favorite scapegoat of late.

[Pine]

What a load of bullshit.

Just for starters, that last sentence is VERY clear misrepresentation. You assert I'm purposely trying to mislynch Town, but don't back that up with your vote. It serves to discredit me and derail the wagon on you that you're so terrified of before it begins.

[Pine]

Nhammenn plays like this, regardless of his alignment, coming out to make insightful remarks or

fake

insight when scum. I've had mild suspicion of him for a while, but I've really been waiting for him to make one of those observations to try and discern which he is. Those he's had so far have been in agreement with me or inconclusive. He's hard to read.

[Pine]

All in all, he's probably Town. He's pretty much the only person I've never had a reasonably strong read on, and I'm so paranoid this game that anyone I haven't raised Hell against is probably clean.

[Pine]

Lurking scum

[Pine]

I will not be hammering NS. Apparent cop clear and not the source of our extra NKs.

As scummy as he's playing, NS is almost mod-confirmed Town to me.

Those of you on the NS wagon, if you come to your senses right now, you can have a premium spot on the Zepherscum wagon.

[Pine]

Pay attention, Silver. Cop crumbed an innocent on NS. Godfather is dead. Toon is our SK.

The only way NS is scum is if we are misinterpreting a crumb from KoC where none exists. And I doubt that.

Ergo, nigh-confirmed Town.

[Pine]

I'd be willing to bet that one or maybe both remaining scum are on your wagon, NS. Your assistance in bringing down Zepherscum (who is, incidentally, the ringleader of the failwagon on you,) is appreciated.

[Pine]

^The above parenthetical statement is not true. I think it is a product of my growing tunnel vision on Zepher :/

[Pine]

What the shit are you talking about? That is as expanded as it CAN be.

COP GOT INNOCENT. NS ISNT GODFATHER, WE ALREADY NAILED THE GODFATHER. HE ALSO CAN'T BE SK. THAT'S TOON. IN A NORMAL-MOD GAME, ONLY TOWN, SK, AND SCUM ARE ALLOWED. PROCESS OF FUCKING ELIMINATION.

[Pine]

As scummy as he's playing, NS is

almost

mod-confirmed Town

to me

.

Fucking pay attention, Silver.

[Pine]

Are you a Jester, NS? They're not allowed in Normal games, but you seem to have made yourself into one. If you couldn't be logically proven as Town you'd be really bad scum.

Comment on Zepher please.

[Pine]

Silver, can you elaborate on why NS has your vote?

[Pine]

No, I'm sorry, perhaps my fault for not clarifying.

Why is your vote STILL on NS, after I've more or less PROVEN him innocent, AND you have someone ELSE, who you have not pressured, hardly pushed, and barely even mentioned as your top scum read.

Silver, you are my ONLY merit-based Town read. And you are shaking that HARD.

[Pine]

I feel lists like yours are inherently flawed. They treat a game that is deluged in shades of gray as if it were black and white.

[Pine]

The only people I don't suspect right now are Uite and NS. You recently moved out of my Town reads.

My vote reflects my top scumread. All of my reads are complicated and confused, and are explained in detail. Rank ordering is trite and artificial.

[Pine]

Silver, please read the thread. You aren't a VI, stop acting like one.

[Pine]

Holy Christ, Silver, really? Less than a dozen posts ago you had me as your second-strongest Town read.

STOP BEING A VI AND READ THE FUCKING THREAD.

My suspicion of Uite disappeared shortly after Uite's VT slip when he posted his VCA. A few posts of trying to figure out whether it was a real slip or feigned, and I decided it was real.

I can't decide now whether you're simply being unforgivably dense or whether you're scum getting cabin fever from this long day phase.

[Pine]

What the hell? 171 is asking my strongest townreads to join me in wagoning on scum.

Which I notice you aren't doing, preferring to vote for the cop-cleared guy. Super.

When Zepher flips scum, Silver is next.

[Pine]

No, right now I can't tell if you're just holding the idiot ball or whether your motivation is scum. Zepher's flip will tell.

[Pine]

...That claim changes EVERYTHING, Zepher. Why the FUCK haven't you said so before?

Unvote

Layover in Atlanta, so I had a chance to skim but not really process anything. This FUCKING GAME. I'll deal with you poxy bastards when I get home.

[Pine]

No, fuck it. VOTE: Zepher

I read a little more, and this claim strikes me as hardcore flailing. Important information that didn't come out when it would have been useful looks faked. Probably WIFOM. If Zepher flips JOAT as advertised, we know NS is probably guilty, because...honestly, NS's performance is among the scummiest I've ever seen. Only the cop crumb was to his favor. 1-2 scum in {Zepher, NS}. 97% certain.

@Maxous: I believe Toon is probably SK. Vig claim + scumminess. It doesn't actually matter though, not yet. If he's vig, there's no way scum will suffer him to live. If he's SK, same deal, except he may be BP. If he lives the night and we're missing a kill, we lynch the BP SK, who I don't want to see live to a Kingmaker endgame.

And don't give me that SK-acts-as-vig bullshit. It doesn't work out in the end, and there's no incentive for the SK except to betray the Town in LyLo.

[Pine]

I notice no night 3 claim.

Toon's rage against me is born of fear. He doesn't have others to rely on if he dies, he has only himself. Classic SK behavior.

[Pine]

Pine, stop with the WIFOM shenanigans. I can totally see scum missing their kill for the opportunity to lynch me tomorrow.

This is a

moronic

suggestion. Any scum would rather just kill you and be done with it, killing someone else at the least.

This is 100% setting up for him to survive tomorrow.

Unvote
Vote: Toon

The quote above is DAMNING when coupled with a vig claim. I am now 100% certain that Toon is SK, and am setting aside the two-man scumteam to eliminate the one-man scumteam.

PE: Silver stop being a fucktard. I said Zepher/NS contains one scum (yes, I'm amending that, I don't see this as a bus). I have an unprecedented number of strong scumreads. The only one I'm 100% on is Toon.

[Pine]

Lolol. Calling my vote OMGUS, then using the fact that I RBed him last night out of suspicion as evidence against me. Pick a side, you can't play both.

As for your repeated vocal Town-claims...methinks the lady doth protest too much.

[Pine]

Well, if NS flips town, we know who to kill tonight, so

unvote, vote: NS

I just hope Pine drops the idiot ball, and, if town, blocks someone actually useful for town -.-

Oh? And who do "we" kill tonight, Toon?

For that matter, who would you have me block?

[Pine]

Seriously? After all that, Silver? You stay on stubborn as all hell when there appears to be evidence clearing him, arguing yourself blind, and now that the wagon gets close to lynch and that evidence is discarded, you unceremoniously unvote?

Please, please stop being a failure.

[Pine]

@Silver: "Discarded" was perhaps a poor choice of word. To clarify, it has been called into doubt, its validity questioned.

As for "not doing anything Night 1"...

@nhammen: I targeted Uite. He's been very lurky and I had few other leads. Like with cop-investigation, I think it's more likely that scum would send their lurkiest member to make the kill. Remember in TWBB how we always sent you to make the kill?