Newbie 1104 -- Game over

[Twistedspoon]

/confirmé (record time)

since I'm your IC i'm going to make a fancy IC post in a sec

[Twistedspoon]

righto

welcome guys. I'm glad to meet you all. The name's Twistedspoon, or TS
Since this is my first time as IC I'll be trying to follow this here guide. You don’t really need to read that, but it’s a good idea if you want to know what to expect from me this game. I will be treating this like a normal game, for the most part, except I’ll try to explain myself more than I usually would so you can at least see my thought process.

Myself and the SEs will be glad to take any questions from you about mafia at any time. There is no such thing as a dumb question. There is nothing more useless than an unasked question.

the wiki is interesting. It can be outdated in parts since the mafia metagame is constantly changing. However this is always a good read

Finally, remember to play to your wincon, as town or scum. There is nothing more useless than a poor game (didn't I already say that about unasked questions? )

anyways, to get things going, you can all tell me of your previous mafia experience, or If this is your first time no worries at all.

Here's to a great game
~ TS

[Twistedspoon]

Forgot something. It is the SE's duty to say: No matter how helpful the IC is, it isn't a town tell. Thanks. Seen way to many Newbie games fall to pieces because of that.

haha

if only this had been said in my past games XD

why would I PL you anyways?

1. What, if any, experience do you have at mafia?
2. What is your timezone?
3. How often can we expect you to be posting?

1) since early January, but many games. Up until recently I was in 11 games at once and my play suffered. I'm trying to cut back now to concentrate on my team mafia and newbie games. I also need to update my wiki page. It's rather old. I think this is my 9th newbie game and 1st as IC. I've certainly improved since claiming doc 1st post in my 1st game :/
2) GMT. British. Sigh. Australian is much cooler
3) I'm rather active, so no worries there

[Twistedspoon]

and I believe the day begins

[Twistedspoon]

why would I PL you anyways?

What does PL mean?

policy lynch anyways; to lynch someone without reason

I don't know why Espe thought I would PL him

Vote: TwistedSpoon

'cause I like my spoons straight.

Ha, do you now?

VOTE: Lord of graves
as it's clearly scummy to have a birthday during the start of a game

[Twistedspoon]

you don't actually need to unvote, btw

a new vote includes an unvote

[Twistedspoon]

It's in the mod's second post under 'commonly used abbreviations'

RVS is the random voting stage. We're in it now as we have no clue who is scum and our votes are random

V/LA is when you are on a vactaion or have limited access. It means you might not be able to post for a while

[Twistedspoon]

oops

this is the link

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... reviations

[Twistedspoon]

My name is on that page =D

[Twistedspoon]

VOTE: gbevil

wagon time

[Twistedspoon]

VOTE: Captain

Just the reaction i was looking for

Putting someone at L-1 in the RVS reeks of opportunistic scum hoping for a quickhammer

[Twistedspoon]

what are you talking about?

It's page 3. You can't just give up, especially if town

and I have no-idea what you mean when you say' those roles were by chances'

[Twistedspoon]

...

and this relates to you putting gbevil at a dangerous L-1 because?

I had a dream about getting voted down by you TS.

guilty conscience compadré?

[Twistedspoon]

@gbevil: thoughts on your L-1'ing?

and what do you think of this disturbingly fast wagon, Razgriz and Espe? Since you are the experienced ones do you think it is scum driven in any way?

[Twistedspoon]

forest is town
anti-IC is often a newb town tell. At least that's what faraday told me

also, the middle of the wagon tell doesn't apply in RVS, by the way. We use Random votes in the Random voting stage, so that doesn't really apply
besides, most of the wiki tells are getting outdated as the metagame constantly changes to adapt around them.

CC might be scum...
Forest is showing exactly what a townie would think, especially in a newbie game
gb is probably town too for similar reasons. His unvote wouldn't be scum driven either
noragar i'm unsure on, but probably town if I had to choose

need more from Razgriz & Co.

[Twistedspoon]

@ TS: CC has said enough, get back on the oter wagon we can build pressure.

just thought I'll point out that saying a wagon is for pressure completely defeats the point of it

"hey, we're going to pressure you. Feel pressured yet?"

[Twistedspoon]

...

now do you see why I didn't vote gbevil espe?

nearly had a lynch already.

[Twistedspoon]

is this your first game frosty?

I strongly reccomend that we don't lynch unless we think someone is scum. Keeping yourself alive should be done through helping lynch scum, not random players

[Twistedspoon]

also, I strongly reccomend you unvote. We don't want to lynch gbevil, at least not now, and you'll look awful if he flips town

[Twistedspoon]

quick sweep?

and imo, RQS would totally destroy any momentum we have

[Twistedspoon]

and right now that is CC and frosty for 2 L-1ings

2!!!

you'd think after the first one you'd learn that a lynch this early is awful

[Twistedspoon]

we're 4 pages in

we're nowhere near ready for a lynch

we will lynch, for sure, but not now

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=17140

my last newbie game

35 pages until our first lynch. Granted, that one did set a record, but we're not quite there yet Mr.Eager beaver

[Twistedspoon]

How long are games usually? Obviously we're gonna finish by June 3

June 3 is the deadline for day 1

then we have another maximum of 3 weeks for D2 etc.

[Twistedspoon]

I had meant to add to my last post that I would guess a newbie game typically lasts somewhere around a month to a month and a half. A more experienced player can correct me if I'm wrong.

each day lasts a max of 3 weeks

[Twistedspoon]

@ TS, I've seen newbies ask if they should claim after being put to L-2 on the first page. Anything is possible.

uh huh

and were they town or scum?

town I'm guessing

[Twistedspoon]

But my main reason is because he said he wanted to stay alive.

so you see this as more newb scum than newb town?

you don't think that newb town would be worried being killed more than being lynched?

[Twistedspoon]

is Razgriz alive?

[Twistedspoon]

He could have irl issues or any number of other explainations.

yeah, I knew someone on an old forum who got hit by a car :/
she survived, but it just shows that anything can happen irl

[Twistedspoon]

it is because I live in Ireland, which is GMT and also go to a boarding school

STOP RIGHT THERE

that is the most awesome thing I read all day

I's great to know I'm not the only GMT'er here
and tbh, I always wanted to go to a boarding school after reading harry potter :p

you sir are avery cool person

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
back on topic:

So who do you find scummy? Do you think anyone on your wagon (anyone who voted you) or otherwise may be scum?

[Twistedspoon]

Do you think Raz lurking into replacement telling in any way?

I've seen both scum and town lurk into replacement, but I've seen it more commonly with town

Who's your top three as of this moment?

top 3 scum?
I'll be surprised if none of CC, frosty or noragar are scum

You seem to be putting a lot of thought into your posts for someone with very few weeks experience. Do you adapt quickly?

he's either very adaptive or has a scumpartner who gave him a mafia lesson in the QT pre-game. That's what i did last time I was scum in a newbie game. Tell the newbie everything I know about mafia pre-game in the QT beforehand s they look like a pro

since this could only be espe by PofE (due to ragriz not being present and me knowing I'm not mafia) I'm going to side with very adaptive. I have no evidence to suggest either of espe or chaos are scum at this point

answers in bold

[Twistedspoon]

I completely forgot about LoG

VOTE: Lord of Graves

always seems to be riding the biggest wagons. could be that he's trying to fit in and look unsuspicious by being on the wagons

[Twistedspoon]

I'm gonna sit back and observe for a while before I make another vote.

if we all 'sat back and observed' the game would come to a standstill. not good

For anyone who cares, I suspect chkflip, TS and CC, in no particular order. (Don't take my suspicion for chkflip too seriously as that's also mostly out of bias.)

let's hear you explain them then

also, talk about Lord of graves and frosty (who has been similar to CC in L-1'ing)

[Twistedspoon]

major scum tells?

[Twistedspoon]

i mean it assumes you have minor ones. I'm interested now

[Twistedspoon]

As for the reason I suspect TS, I'm just being cautious, because he may end up being scum.

that's true for all of us

As for Lord of Graves, aside from the L-1ing,

Lord of graves never put anyone at L-1, only frosty and CC did that

Since it's happened a few times already, and after what was said about L-1 as a means of pressure and getting out info, it doesn't seem as suspicious to do it anymore.

so what info were you hoping for?

[Twistedspoon]

wow, gb does learn fast

[Twistedspoon]

anyways, I still want to know why everyone's being so conservative with their vote

[Twistedspoon]

yeah, I'm still swish with Lord of graves

[Twistedspoon]

so until LoG gets replaced

VOTE: Noragar
probably my second favourite lynch
actually, my gut is quite suspicious of noragar

[Twistedspoon]

hey flippy, wagon noragar with me

[Twistedspoon]

welcome to the club Otolia

[Twistedspoon]

espe, opinions plz

[Twistedspoon]

About TwistedSpoon, I would say that the argument, IC are more influential than others doesn't count for him. *cough_being-lynched-D1-as-a-SE_cough*

UNVOTE: Frostbite I'll vote/bandwagon when I need to.

are you talking about one of my past games :/

anyways what reads do you have on players?

[Twistedspoon]

right. my thoughts

I know I'm town
forest air and gbevil are very high town reads
flippy, otolia and frosty are proably town
cuddles seems too reckless to be scum although i won't rule it out just yet
leaves espe and noragar. If this turns out to be correct I want the MVP

anyone want to give their read on espe?

[Twistedspoon]

imo, we're just going to keep repeating this L-1 cycle until we get a claim or a lynch

It's happened twice already and I'm very cool with a noragar lynch.

[Twistedspoon]

off topic/

so since this is my first game as IC and my ICness is going to be reviewed have I satsified any questions about the game, mafia or the site in general you may have had?
/offtopic

ontopic/

so frosty, why return to CC? what are your thoughts on Noragar, Flippy, Espe and Otolia. Those are reads I'm interested to hear your take on

[Twistedspoon]

I thought he was on L-2

[Twistedspoon]

okay noragar seems as though he is on L-1, my mistake

usually, just before a lynch happens (almost always at L-1 outside of massclaim) the suspected person is asked to claim their role. Now would be a fair time to do so

[Twistedspoon]

And I don't really get the point of roleclaiming in a newbie game, because everyone is going to say they're Vanilla Townies, since the PRs will get killed at night by the mafia if they confess and the mafia won't roleclaim as scum for obvious reasons.

nah, power roles should claim PR so they don't get lynched. If they claim VT they might get lynched. There are advantages

e.g. doc protection. a jailkeeper could stop the kill. The scum could leave the PR alive to make them appear scummy

[Twistedspoon]

This of course doesn't mean that noragar couldn't be scum. He just isn't dumb scum if he is. I was fishing for a tell, and didn't get one.

How do you know all of this?

seriously this is advancedish stuff. I thought this was your first game?

Now we have to decide. Do we lynch a VT because we don't want to force more claims or do we target another player ?

no

this L-1'ing will just continue forever with everyone claiming VT

madness

and I'm really interested into the whereabouts of Espe

Otolia, What;s your list of reads?

[Twistedspoon]

He would claim vanilla townie because he knows scum would kill a power role. Only scum claim power roles because they aren't afraid of being NK'd and noob town are hesitant to lynch a claimed power role.

PRs should claim PRs

we need them alive ad they deserve special protection so we can't just throw them in the VT bucket.

If they really are a PR their play will (hopefully) not have been scummy enough to merit a lynch

The boundaries of scuminess are rather unclear in newbie games.
I do know that I want more Espe though.

[Twistedspoon]

it's never good to keep your reads secret mate

opinions are the town's biggest weapon and hiding them only conceals them

and to use your own logic if you get the NK we'd never know your reads

This day isn't ending until I have a fair idea of everyone's reads and I hear a proper post from Espe

[Twistedspoon]

because they shall incur my wrath if they do

[Twistedspoon]

before anyone even consiers hammering I want a list of reads from CC and Otolia and a juicy catchup post from espe

[Twistedspoon]

*considers

[Twistedspoon]

Manipulating town isn't what people expect from a IC. You want the opinions from other when you don't express yours. It doesn't work that way. Besides the biggest weapon of a townie is his vote not his thoughts, because anyone can fake an opinion, whereas faking a vote is impossible.

I've given my reads many times

and not giving your opinions is just anti-town

his vote depends on his thoughts. The two are connected

I'm pretty sure It's not just me who wants your reads too. You replaced a player I've found slightly hard to get a read on and a possible scum candidate. We'd like your reads thanks

[Twistedspoon]

Espe or Otolia?
who needs my vote more?

VOTE: Otolia

easy. Hate to let noragar walk off but he's not today's lynch. I prefer Lord of Graves- I mean Otolia

I'm confident frostbite is town too

[Twistedspoon]

frostbite is cleared for sure if otolia flips scum

Lord of graves was so close to hammering him and even Otolia has said he could be scum, but not obviously enough for him to get credit from it has a bus

[Twistedspoon]

I still don't get why you guys think frostbite is town, just based on what he's said so far. I'm not pushing for his lynch or anything but TS and gb both kind of skipped over him after he said "I go to a boarding school." What the hell? TS, can you give me some town tells you got from Frostbite?

basically he's just as strong a town read as you are at the moment, but if otolia flips scum he's confirmed practically

I have confidence otolia will flip scum

[Twistedspoon]

seriously, there is no town motivation for not giving reads

I've played with scum before who either didn't read the thread enough or didn't make reads since they already knew who was not scum

I was confident in a Lord of Graves lynch
now I'm even more so

[Twistedspoon]

Finally, I read up on basic game theory in the Wiki and possess the common sense to take the basic game theory and develop my own ideas about the game.

okay, that's cool
now you can help lynch otolia/Lord Of Graves over noragar

@Flippy: have you ever played in a game with alliances? If so what is your opinion on them?

[Twistedspoon]

Case why Forstbite is 99% town if Otolia flips scum

Vote: Frostbite

So he hasn't been around and I don't even think he confirmed then he swoops in and puts a guy at L-1. Lurking plus trying to get a quick lynch on the fifth page. Smells like scum.

But my main reason is because he said he wanted to stay alive. Newbie reasoingn? Maybe. But only scum should ever try to appease town.

Goes for frostbite. Even puts him at L-1. This would be a seriously bad tactic to bus their partner to almost lynch so early especially when there is so little evidence on him in RVS. Scum usually only bus when their partner is going down anyways or has more solid scumminess so that they can get credit for the scumflip. No credit would have been gained in this instance since it was an RVS wagon and no-one could tell if frosty was scum or not. Therefore it cannot be a bus

also...

So we have a guy at L-1 and all you do is talking about your personal business. Show some seriousness, when someone is at L-1, you are supposed to discuss that situation. If you don't, you are a bad townie unless, well, you are scum ...

hints that frostbite could be scum, yet it's so subtle it cannot be a bus as he wouldn't be able to get credit should frosty flip scum.

So that's why I think frostbite is really likely to be town if Otolia flips scum

Otolia lynch = -1 mafia and +1 obvtownie

what's not to like?

[Twistedspoon]

Spoon, I have not, but I have taken notice to people succumbing to pressure when a voting bloc is formed.

Was I that obvious? lawl

obvious at what?
my question was just a side question

I have 5 very strong tow reads so in theory a pressure group/alliance could be formed. I'm not sure if that's newbie game level though. I hadn't been in one either until recently in team mafia :p

[Twistedspoon]

L-2, yes?

Let's give him some time to respond before further pressure, please.

aww you're no fun

V/LA Until the 20th of June. Exams have finally caught up with me. You can replace me if you want.

if so then I look forwards to the next time we play together my fine feathered friend

I might as well give my reads again

chkflip - Most likely town. Especially if otolia flips scum
Otolia - probably scum. Certainly(?) not scum with frostbite. Not giving reads is just plain anti-town
Chaos - Either clever town or very clever scum. I haven't seen anything scummy though but I have seen some town tells such as NK kill paranoia. High town read
CC - null/town. Probably town I guess
Frost - Probably town. Even more likely with Otolia scumflip
Noragar - I really don't know. If i had to choose the two scum though, he's not one. 3rd biggest suspect
Forest - Very strong town read. I forget the reason, but it was a strong town tell (I forget whcih) at the start of the game. I remember that it seemed town though.
Espe - little content. IIoA too perhaps. Probably Otolia's buddy if I had to guess now
Otolia/Lord of Graves - I'm confident he's scum

[Twistedspoon]

the irony is that I asked for his reads to help the tempo pick up
but the fact that he didn't has pretty much closed the case on who to lynch D1

I'm not interested in a claim right now since I'm so sure of the inevitable scum flip so I'm cool with a lynch whenever you guys are

[Twistedspoon]

your girlfriend is always calling

haha I wish mine did

anyways, It's cool since I'm off to sleep now anyways

[Twistedspoon]

okay can i just point out that otolia is talking nonsense and I'm even more confident in his scumflip

he says all his reads were null. That's hardly the excuse he was using when i asked him for his reads. He could have but said that but he didn't.
These fact that his reads aren't even null makes that even worse

1. His threat towards the town

before anyone

even considers

hammering I want a list of reads from CC and Otolia and a juicy catchup post from espe

because they shall incur my

wrath

if they do

I'm telling the other townies not to hammer at this point and you're saying this is a bad thing?
This is awful from you.

2. His focus on SEs

espe

, opinions plz

anyways what reads do

you (Otolia)

have on players?

so frosty, why return to CC? what are your thoughts on Noragar,

Flippy

,

Espe

and

Otolia

. Those are reads I'm interested to hear your take on

and I'm really interested into the whereabouts of

Espe

.

Otolia

, What;s your list of reads?

This day isn't ending until I have a fair idea of everyone's reads and I hear a proper post from

Espe

All the italic names are SEs.

Excellent strawmanning here

1)

You're not an SE

. If you somehow are but aren't listed as one in the mod's first post then you can hardly use that as evidence against me. The first post say's you're not an SE so all of this evidence is null. Not that i even see anything wrong with asking about SEs. They're in here for a reason.
I like how you cherry-picked your Quotes too. You missed all the ones out where i wen't asking SEs to get a poor representation

To me it seems like a cornered beast who is feeling the heat and start to show his teeth and then attack when he feels he can settle the case in a decisive and rather swift action.

This is just complete nonsense

I fact the whole of his post is

I'm dissapointed here. We should have lynched this scum by now.

Here's the deal. If Otolia doesn't flip scum you can lynch me tommorow.

I'm putting my head on the line here. I have everything to lose if I'm scum.
This is my ultimatium. I honestly can't see why everyone else is so blind to this scuminess

[Twistedspoon]

His 282 doesn't seem scum motivated, brings up interesting points on Spoon

made me laugh

interesting points? If you call asking people's opinions on SE's (amongst other players which Otolia kindly forgot to mention) a scumtell then sure

just to remind you of the way forward and how I have 100% confidence in this lynch

VOTE: Otolia

[Twistedspoon]

I like how Otolia doesn't even vote me after calling em so scummy

he already knows I'll flip town if lynched because he's scum

This player is dripping with scuminess

[Twistedspoon]

100% ready for it

[Twistedspoon]

ha

tunneling?

I'm responding to your case

[Twistedspoon]

tunneling is when you concentrate on one player

right now

1) I'm responding to your (pitiful) case so obviously you're important to reply to
2) you're a very confident scum read of mine so why not?

anyways your 'He's an IC' argument doesn't cut it for me

That's bascically your whole argument

you mention something about SEs too but you had no conclusion or point there. I'm not buddying to them if that's your point since I've been Espe's first and biggest suspector.

[Twistedspoon]

Also, what is a null read? Neutral?

Yes.

I also think your "self preservation motivated" theory seems even more fitting here. Scum wants to live.

hmm

I must admit i didn't read chao's post in the rage mood I was in after reading otolia's, but on the topic of self preservation I've already mentioned I'm willing to risk my life for the otolia flip

if by the offchance otolia is town then he should accept his own lynch with open arms since I've offered myself for the d2 lynch and he's sure I'm scum.

however I doubt otolia's town and I doubt he'll accept my proposal

[Twistedspoon]

have this blown away in my head

can't post now though

have to be tommorow

[Twistedspoon]

can we please lynch this scum now?

Saying you didn't know I am not an SE is a lie. You can see my join-date, if after that you don't check if I had previous games on this website (one of which I mentioned in an earlier post) then you are not scumhunting. Getting infos on other players is key in a mafia game. You are ought to know that as an IC. And I didn't cherry-picked your quotes, I included

all of them

where you were for reads. Another lie to dust !

The first page didn't say you were an SE
It's also newbie game protocol to (usually) have 2 SEs per game

Those two reasons gave me no reason to believe you were an SE

expecting me to have checked your past games is a daft assumption. I might have done if
1) we weren't in a newbie game. Meta tells are less applicable in newbie games as the entire book of tells is turned on its head. Scummy things become newn-town etc.
20 I didn't need to metea you and don't know. I'm sure you're scum
3) what does it even matter that you're an SE?

as for the cherry picking, even If you did include all of the posts (which I doubt but don't have time to check lucky you) then you still disregarded the parts where I'm asking of frostbite and as I've already shown I had no reason to believe you were an SE
I'm still seeing no point to this SE argument. asking about Espe is the sensible thing to do since he's hardly been here and being suspicious of him is hardly buddying to him. I have no idea what your argument is. You look like confused scum grasping at straws
scraping the bottom of the barrel for ideas and you'll get splinters compadré

And here is the cherry on the cake, you are blackmailing the town. How anti-town is that ?! I said I was against your obvious ways of manipulating the opinion in your favor but that's low. You have done too much in favor of my lynch and you can't back down now, so you are using a HUGE loudspeaker to make more noise that you were doing previously. And another lie to your account : "I have everything to lose if I'm scum". So far I know, there are two mafia players in newbie games. Even if one of them die, the other can still win the game. Saying you have everything to lose is something that reinforces my case of the wounded animal because you really do feel threatened by my answers.

1) I'm not blackmailing the town. because i) They don't have to lynch me if they don't want to ii) you'll flip scum so no worries iii) The point of it is just to show how confident I am in your scumflip
2) even if I was blackmailing the town what's wrong with that? Scum lynches are how we win the game at the end of the day. We both think the other one of us is scum so that chances that one of us are are very high. So we're almost guaranteed to get one scum if we lynch you.
3) I could back down if i wanted to easy. I'd just cite the newb-town tell of IC paranoia and move onto some perfectly other good wagon If i wanted too. However thsi has gone so far I don't see why I'd want off your wagon. Obvscum
4) sure there are 2 mafia players. But their chances are strongly reduced if they lose one, and It doesn't help that they're all newbie's either. A gambit of losing an IC scum player to a scummy townie who would probably get lynched without the need for offering my head on the line should he flip scum would be madness (this is not the case though. You're the scum)

TS started a wagon on noragar and scums don't start wagons on each other in D1 mostly because it scares newbies to be bussed.

This is the daftest thing I've read so far. no explanation needed about how shoddy this is

You are tunelling me because you are obsessed with lynching me without being able to see the bigger pictures.

apologies, this is the daftest thing

1) I'm tunneling on you? I asked you for your reads mate and am still in that line of conversation of course;
2) even if i was tunneling on you, why not? Everyone else is a town read of mine apart from Espe who isn't ever here so I can't question him and noragar who we seem to have got all the information we can out of him after our pressure. That leaves you as the only person. So why not tunnel? It's not like you've not been scummy enough to not deserve it?

[Twistedspoon]

EDIT : After thinking about it a little bit, I think we could be in a marvelous case of town vs. town. Most of the townies haven't take position on this and so didn't Espeonage. That's really disturbing me.

Backpedal much? You said I was obvious scum last page?

Espeonage isn't here so your deflection onto him isn't working. How could have have taken a position if he hasn't shown up. He hasn't taken a position on anything :/

probably removes him as a likely buddy for you now though and makes noragar look more likely. thanks there

[Twistedspoon]

EBWODP: Nah, I read it more like "oh, okay, well I'll just lynch the lurker / buss my buddy for town points."

maybe I guess

I think buses are less subtle though. Either way noragar is a more likely buddy at the moment as Otolia seems quite pro-noragar

[Twistedspoon]

if he's scum he's not going to name his partner is he?
and if he's town his info will be of no help

it's a daft question. sorry to ruin it if it's some wifom gambit

anyways, no-one's saying we don't respect you here. I hold everyone here in the highest regard alignment whatever

[Twistedspoon]

it's an odd question but I'm not sure how it makes him scum or at least voteworthy

I'll consider flippy D2 if we don't get a scumflip today. I don't think we should be lynching him d1 if ever

did you notice I responded to your last case-on-me post or do you just not feel like commenting on it?

[Twistedspoon]

I shall admit this U-turn cycle of Twisted to Town.V.Town to Chklip is amusing

still very comfotable with an Otolia lynch though. I wouldn't want to let him live solely because he's off of my case for a bit

[Twistedspoon]

fine.
I'll be happy that I can end the wall sequence as the last poster.

I've made some good points in my opinion and am still very much liking your lynch

however you could argue It's more to the townieness of others. I don't know

I'm rather confident the scum lie in {Otolia, Noragar, Espe}. I think it might be possible for CC to be scum yet look very newb town and Choas could be really clever scum but I'm not considering them at the moment. I'm more confident in Otolia
Outside of that group I'll be very surprised if someone is scum.

[Twistedspoon]

Also,

FoS Chkflip

. He's jumped on several early bandwagons without posting reasoning, and he hasn't started really pushing against Otolia until it was rather obvious that he was going to be lynched. I have details written down, but I'm not going to share them until tomorrow. I don't want to make us go on a wild tangent when we have an easy scum target right in front of us in Otolia.

I can agree with this,

I still think scum lies in {Otolia, Noragar, Espe} and possibly CC for now though. A flip and NK could change my reads

If we get a lynch done soon we can have the whole night phase for Espe and frosty's replacement to catch up in. I'll expect a serious post from espe at the start of D2 if we don't get one before the night phase

[Twistedspoon]

Having said that, if I die during Night 1, chkflip is almost definitely scum trying to stop me from posting my case.

scum could just kill you now you've said that to incriminate flippy

I really don't see a TS/Chkflip partnership unless they're using the most blatant WIFOM strategy imaginable.

what do you mean?

[Twistedspoon]

yeah that is a bit odd

as flattered as I am It makes me wonder. I have no idea if that's a scumtell though.
Maybe I'll consider flippy D2. Probably not. I have a strongish town read on him now.

[Twistedspoon]

sooo...

that's L-1

Unusually I'm fine with ending the day whenever. Otolia can claim if he wants to. I suppose it's polite to let him claim I guess.
I'd like to hear a juicy summary post from CC, Frostbite's replacement and Espe if and when they turn up. I can wait a night phase though if I have to. I don't want a day to drag on waiting for 1 or 2 people who could catch up whilst the night phase is running

[Twistedspoon]

I shall very after this we get a town flip

but this was inevitable after lord of graves

would have been polite to let him claim I guess. Ah well. I remember the time I was hammered before they gave me a a chance to claim. I was a cop and soooo annyoed

too late now I guess.

[Twistedspoon]

I shall very after this we get a town flip

?

'I shall very upset after this if we get a town flip' is what it should say

[Twistedspoon]

Hopefully Espe, CC, and Frost's replacement will all be here, caught up, and ready to go after the night.

took the words from my mouth

seriously, even If i die and can't remind you, It's imperative you catch up.
It's not frost's replacement's fault though. He's probably going to :3

[Twistedspoon]

thanks mate, Nice to see you're cool about it


I look forwards to playing with you when we're on the same side and you're an original player. I admit it must have been tough for you replacing LoG

PS : I'll have A LOT to say about TS focus after game. See you there.

lol

It's my first time as IC, don't be too mean

meanwhile I'm glad this clears frosty's replacement as I've already said. Provided we both live I look forwards to playing with an almost fully cleared townie tommorow

G'night guys

[Twistedspoon]

Iknowrite. Party Time

I'm going to look at Espe tommorow If he turns up

If you read this espe then you need to make a juicy catchup post start of tommorow, especially if you're scum. :p
Catchup post from CC would be cool too

not sure how Noragar comes out of D1. His vote

might

have been a bus. I'm not sure. Otolia did seem quite protective of noragar. Possible buddy here. Might look through the otolia ISO to look for buddy clues if I have time. We'll see

[Twistedspoon]

Deleted per request; no relevant game info.

[Twistedspoon]

Oops

wrong game

@Mod please delete above post. I posted in the wrong newbie game

[Twistedspoon]

hey Haylen - Welcome to the club

[Twistedspoon]

I want catchup posts from Haylen, CC and Espe shortly

If a doctor protected CC or Espe then it makes them very likely town and that would be useful info to know so we don't go barking up the wrong tree.
In fact if we do have a doc he and the person he protected would be confirmed town

probably not a food idea to claim now though

and Haylen will outclass my ICness and make me feel like i'm a newbie again :3

to get things going

VOTE: Noragar
can't deny otolia was pro-norgar

ninja'd: Hey haylen. I've always considered myself confirmed town since I got my role PM. I don't think you should though; you don't have my role PM i mean

also, when you catchup you'll see the reasons why i think your slot is 99% conf town after Otolia's flip

[Twistedspoon]

flip is town

probably might make a small noragar case if i feel like it

[Twistedspoon]

forget that

flip isn't town. I'm not sure

looking back It's possible it could be a bus. hang on

[Twistedspoon]

flip's ISO

he's on otolia like a yo-yo

I mean

Otolia's play is a little scummy overall, though. I can link to a recently ended town win with him being the hammer in lylo.

These sentences seem contradictory; what I'm saying is that he has his ups and his downs. It'd be best to shake him first, for sure.

what happened to this reason for otolia town?

Otolia, in a hypothetical world where you're scum... who would be your partner?

and this question looks like fair bussing material. I can't see what else it could be

I have no idea what alignment flippy is. He's certainly helpful though in the otolia wagon.

this is your call town

[Twistedspoon]

CC is a Publisher...this could be useful information for myself in the future.

iknowrite

Hmm. That could very easily be bussing. The answer to that question would be so WIFOM that it would be of literally no use. Asking the question in the first place seems suspicious.

My thoughts exactly

you and I are on the same wavelength here :s

[Twistedspoon]

forest is town in my book
but then so are you so meh...

what's your case/analysis on myself?

[Twistedspoon]

fair enough

CC will be a good read too

[Twistedspoon]

as a newbie expert Haylen, do you think this is newbtown or newbscum in CC?

[Twistedspoon]

TS will say the same as me, if he doesn't I will be having words with him and the Powers That Be.

lol

I'll wait until your case on me before I become your sheep, but yeah, I'll probably agree with near-everything.
I assume you read my case on my your slot is town after the scumflip?

[Twistedspoon]

never lie about your role

end of case

Forest and Gbevil are cool in my book. Haylen outclasses me in ICness

Haylen's word is not just law, it is Gospel

[Twistedspoon]

@mod: can you prod espe?

[Twistedspoon]

I am tempted to do a quote montage of Espeonage saying how drunk he is

[Twistedspoon]

right I just won and for the first time MVP'd my other newbie game

I want a nice win here too

I think it'd be truly remarkable if we win with no townie deaths. A real perfect win (has that been done before Haylen?)

anyways as far as reads Flippy is null/town and I'm willing to trust Haylen's read of new-scum on CC over my own read of newb-town on him since Haylen is a newbie expert and such.

Gbevil lives even if he has an odd craze for PRs fakeclaiming
I think forest is town and Espe is wholly null with the only tell I'm seeing a weak town ne because scum would never lurk this blatanty, but it's weak. He and CC need to catch up
noragar is a wildcard. Otolia was rather pro-noragar but Haylen is trusting him for now.

I'll say that scum lie in the [noragar, CC, Espe] bracket with Flippy and forest being long-shots. Everyone else I can't see being scum

[Twistedspoon]

May do iso's on the top towns just to make sure I'm not putting trust in people I shouldn't.

who would you say are the top towns? Gbevil?

[Twistedspoon]

zOMG Twisted. YAY-YUHHHHHHH~ (this is in response to your new avatar)

@Anyone, do you think there's a possibility of Hayscum?

I assume that means you like it

and there's ~nil chance haylen is scum.

I was super sure Frosty wasn't and Haylen has only made this more certain

@TS: Not picking up the chairs next time.

I see what you did there :3

[Twistedspoon]

I'm siggy'ing that actually Gbevil

anyways, the momentum of this game rests on the shoulders of Espe, Haylen and CC. No pressure guys

[Twistedspoon]

Sorry, I can't take Twistedspoon seriously with his new avatar. I hope he changes it temporarily whilst I try and do my read of him <3

lol

I'm not a very serious person I must admit

but the irony is I always take Haylen too seriously or face the fear of going to hell <3

@Anyone, do you think there's a possibility of Hayscum?

The only winning move is not to play.

what do you mean by this?

[Twistedspoon]

wow my ISo is huge

I don't remember 110 posts

Good luck Haylen XD

[Twistedspoon]

I srsly have 110?
and second is Gbevil with 70

I must be some posting machine

anyways, It's quality not quantity. I concede those points to chaos and Haylen

back on topic/

[Twistedspoon]

fine chkflip's town

but I'm less uncertian about noragar being scum too

Espe?

[Twistedspoon]

P.S. I miss your old avatar XD

[Twistedspoon]

offtopic just for a second, but I doubt scum would do something as bold as Espe just did

seriously, that's a very bold move for scum, accusing Haylen

VOTE: CC

[Twistedspoon]

are you still doing my analysis Haylen? :3

@Mod: CC prod?

[Twistedspoon]

well I just want to hear from him

[Twistedspoon]

otherwise a replacement may be necessary for our publishing friend

[Twistedspoon]

what'll happen now is we'll get another couple of ICs replacing in to overshadow my first time

[Twistedspoon]

I'm outta here

some IC trial this is

JK

hey again Mudffin

if possible you might have an easier time proving me town in this game

[Twistedspoon]

what the-

Morthas too?

I have no worries there but It's hard to earn my IC license from this game when there

are only 3 Newbies

in this game.
At the end of the day I'm just bothered about staying IC though. and winning of course.
If we get scum today I think we may have a record for a truly perfect town win

@Morthas and Muffin: hiya again. No need to thank me for bagging the scum d1.

I'm interested in why you find CC town, Muffin and also what you think of Espe accusing haylen earlier. Bold move for scum maybe?

also, I'm interested in why you haven't caught up espe

and I'm interested in Morthas reading a game which I'm acyually pleased with myself so far. He probably had a really low opinion of my play up until now ^_^

[Twistedspoon]

@ TS - I'm trying really hard to take a back seat, because I know Nobody Special has to write a review on you at the end of the game to send to Vel.

no worries, you're doing fine

I'm gonna do more walls today! I finally got my new glasses and reading doesn't hurt. <_<

*gets out the champagne*
yays

also MuffinMan, why do ou have such a strong town read on myself

my town read on the muffin slot comes from his honesty in like 'I couldn't be bothered to read those walls' which would be a very risky move for scum to be so open to their skimming unlike other players *coughespeonagecough*
However Muffin still needs to explain a couple of things to me :/

[Twistedspoon]

also whilst comradé morthy is catching up my vote will be moot

VOTE: espe
I'm real dissapointed at how you haven't caught up yet. You've been impossible to get a read on and are really only possible to have a null read from anyone at best.

sigh.

I'm really not prepared to let you coast to the endgame like this compadré

[Twistedspoon]

woo

roll on

[Twistedspoon]

@Muffin: I hear what you're saying bro

CC seemed as much newbtown as Noragar and forest though to me :/

but honestly, why am I so town? I want to repeat this townieness in other games but I have no clue how I did it

@Gbevil: do me a solid and wagon espe with us

[Twistedspoon]

reading back CC is actually very obvious town. You're right there

out of the 3 genuine newbies we have though I'd say noragar is the most likely to be scum. How similar would you say his play has been? Do you believe his VT claim would be something scum noragar would do?

Finally do you think that Otolia could have been bussing Noragar as soon as he replaced in? I mean

VOTE: noragar. Let's see what you do when under pressure.

I haven't decided if I want to see him dead tonight. But noragar definitely can't be lynched today UNVOTE: noragar

looks rather bus-tastic

[Twistedspoon]

yeah, muffin goes way beyond his join date

replaced into my last newbie game and had the whole thing figured out after a few posts

@Haylen: whaddaya think of espeonage?

[Twistedspoon]

good work bro

[Twistedspoon]

Even though zMuffin's not, I'm interested in seeing the rest of Haylen's walls.

this

[Twistedspoon]

Haylen, you doing my ISo thing?

and why does Espe keep ignoring this thread *rage*

[Twistedspoon]

oh, and if you guys are interested my game is the next one to be in signups in the mini normal queue after pap rat's finishes signups. Feel free to /in when the time comes

[Twistedspoon]

haylen has hayfever

haylenfever

tee hee

[Twistedspoon]

you guys are deluded

I proved why frostbite was town and you guys ignore this when a far more pro-town player than frostbite fills the slot

and #305 looks a good case for a noragar lynch

[Twistedspoon]

I really just want Haylen lynched so she can't write any more walls. Couldn't care less if she's scum.

that's not pro-town

anyways, Haylen hasn't done my wall yet

[Twistedspoon]

well Haylen has less chance than an Espe lynch


so what is a pro-muffin way?

[Twistedspoon]

anyways what did you think of Otolia's noragar defence in #305?

[Twistedspoon]

well he defends him at other points too

[Twistedspoon]

you can't deny Otolia was rather pro-noragar

[Twistedspoon]

well it wasn't buddying or noragar wouldn't have voted him :p

[Twistedspoon]

...

haylen isn't scum

i proved why frosty wasn't

[Twistedspoon]

who's the IC here

[Twistedspoon]

indeed

my iso?

[Twistedspoon]

haylen, why aren't you voting?

go espe

[Twistedspoon]

you're fos'ing me before even reading my ISO?

what are you suspicious abut then?

or is just a daft ruse to look like you're considering all options without giving any reason why you're suspicious of me?

[Twistedspoon]

well what's wrong with them?

If you're suspicious then say why. Otherwise your Fos is pointless

[Twistedspoon]

yeah I keep asking for my iso. Becasue I'm interested. If i was scum why on earth would i want the best player in the game to go digging around my iso? You're making no sense

and yeah, I also suspect noragar as well as you? so?

[Twistedspoon]

I am an excited little kid

I lynched scum, am on stuvac and Carlise won the JPT

what's not to be excited about?

[Twistedspoon]

i have 3 exams left

then 3 month holiday which has already started

[Twistedspoon]

Haylen, do you share Espe's view that I'm scummy because I'm asking for your analysis of me?

[Twistedspoon]

you seem to be suspicous of all the generally accepted town reads. Haylen and myself

I'll take that as too bold/bizarre for scum

VOTE: Noragar

[Twistedspoon]

at this point I really don't need to buddy if I was scum

think about it, after looking so good coming out of D1 I wouldn't need to buddy

w/e

[Twistedspoon]

whatever

I don't buddy. well not usually and only if I'm town and I know for sure that another player is town. And even then I try not to do it in newbie games.

[Twistedspoon]

I'd vote espe right now but I'm not wanting a quickhammer

I want to hear more from haylen, Morthas and forest too

also, espe can claim now

[Twistedspoon]

Espe doesn't need to claim.... noragar is closer to being lynched than Espe. And claiming early is always a bad thing. Bad twisted, bad.

no

say for example espe claimed doc and had forest air as the protectee

then we have made 2 lynch candidates into confirmed townies in that instance

so it's not always a bad thing

[Twistedspoon]

indeed

[Twistedspoon]

I did mention it I believe.

I don't vocalize everything that goes on in my head.

The list is my conclusions.

That defense without the actual explanation of what goes in your head below is a bad defense
VOTE: espe I'm pretty sure he wasn't L-1, huh TS.. you confuse me

no but i said I would have L-1'ing him but i didn't want a quickhammer

and I don't want to hammer even now

espe is like my 3rd or 4th highest scumread now :/

[Twistedspoon]

you were all very well when i showed frosty was 99% town
in post #261

what's changed now?

[Twistedspoon]

I still like the noragar wagon

anyways, I probably don't need to say hammering now would make me an unhappy camper

[Twistedspoon]

as soon as otolia replaces in he sticks a shabby vote on noragar with a shabby reason. bus?

also, just Ctrl+F noragar in the Otolia iso. It's what I'd expect from a scum to buddy reference

[Twistedspoon]

so who's the scum then?

I'm really not seeing forest scum

[Twistedspoon]

i trust my gut, not my generic half-baked tells

i make up daft tells I've I've been doing to try and justify my gut to those who do not trust my gut

i end up looking like a VI though sometimes. Like now

[Twistedspoon]

i don't think scum would lurk d1.
his d2 play looks town despite being brief

[Twistedspoon]

actually, I want his full reads before I cast judgement (same for forest and choas)

[Twistedspoon]

I'll do the maths

[Twistedspoon]

ugh

I completely forgot we were playing the setup with a possible jailkeeper

how I hate that role

[Twistedspoon]

I think we need a lynch right now. We have too little info and any info i did seem to find pointed to noragar scum which you all disagreed with me on

we're going in circles and heading down the dead end of role speculation

espe is at L-1 and I'm prepared to hammer

I was hoping haylen would have done a fancy Iso on espe and myself by now but I guess that isn't the case

any objections or espe comments?

[Twistedspoon]

we're losing momentum.
A flip is necessary to restore momentum

[Twistedspoon]

We should give Haylen time to finish ISo'ing then hammer.

I guess we owe it to her

[Twistedspoon]

so...

Haylen has one Iso left

[Twistedspoon]

meh

I'll hammer whenever

noragar is my fave lynch but you guys seem to prefer espe. so i'll have to roll with that i guess

[Twistedspoon]

this is why espe isn't the best lynch

at least he's stopped lurking

[Twistedspoon]

Ok you know what. In the interests of pushing this game forward. I know that I am town. (Obv.) I know the only other possible lynch today is noragar. I may not think that noragar is scum, however logic dictates that from my perspective he is a better lynch.

Unvote, Vote: Noragar

well who do you thnk is scum then? F_A

someone has to decide the possible lynches. Now is your chance

[Twistedspoon]

I agree that we need more info

we've only had one flip.

Right now methinks Noragr (who has so little to say) will provide the most.

I can't help thinking that the Otolia Iso incriminates noragar right from the start when otolia put a shabby vote on noragar

[Twistedspoon]

the norgar flip would help a lot with interpreting the otolia Iso

once we have a confirmed read (through the flip) we could compare that to the other reads of otolia and see how his scum game works

Otolia just looked scum with norgarin his iso.
Starts off witha aweak pressure vote (bus)
and then ends with saying 'Noragar can't be lynched' or something like that

and at least Espe has things to say. Noragar has nothing over the last 3 pages. I know who I'd rather keep
Furthermore Espe would be playing very risky for scum to have FOS'd myself and(even now) Haylen

whereas norgagar is playing it safe. Not contributing but not taking risks

It' snot hard to see who is more likely scum for me

[Twistedspoon]

espe is town

[Twistedspoon]

this is like Muffin's Christmas analogy but the presents are kept hidden until his Birthday in July

[Twistedspoon]

shrug

you only need 3 moths to be one

you should apply

[Twistedspoon]

you only need 3 moths to be one

this is meant to read months

your insect collection has little bearing on your IC application. So far...

[Twistedspoon]

Espeonage, since you're close to being lynched, care to roleclaim?

espe already claimed VT

[Twistedspoon]

@mod: morthas prod?

anyways

I think noragar is scum.
Forest being 2nd most likely and espe being 3rd.

That is the order of preference of my lynches.

we could be at a dead end here, but I don't think that matters. At the end of the day someone will die and any stalling now will just frustate scum

[Twistedspoon]

noragar is easily my fave lynch

if we lynch him today, I'll roll with whoever you guys want tommorow

Noragar has already claimed and Muffin's Charistmas present analogy explains why this day isn't being very productive

we need a flip more than anything; just to build up momentum and give us more to work with
I have a great deal of confidence in Noragar scum. Trust me

@Mod: Morthas prod now?

[Twistedspoon]

VOTE: espe

this game is confusing

I'll trust muffin today

Noragar's last post did seem unusually townie

[Twistedspoon]

I want to look into chaos, i'm getting weird vibes from him.

go for it

[Twistedspoon]

okay

what I want to know is how they new forest was a cop

I had no clue forest was cop and she would certainly not have been my choice were I a mafioso

@Haylen: how do you think the scum knew forest was a cop. Furthermore do you think it makes you appear more likely to be scum as you're the most experienced here and therefore probably better at identifying newbie PRs and cops

[Twistedspoon]

I'm only seeing 3 reasons why forest would be killed

1) becasue a more obvious kill may be doc protected
2) because they thought forest was a doc or cop
3) scum hasn't been reading the thread, forgot that forest was generally suspected and got lucky with a cop kill

the problem is, I don't know which

I'm surprised Espe flipped scum

Espe flipped town
espe did not flip scum

[Twistedspoon]

I had comepletly forgeotted about a scum rolecop and jailkeeper
I'm still thinking F11 here.
:p

Rolecop explains things nicely and satisfys my occham's razor

It does make me wonder why, though TS, you are actively encouraging a WIFOM discussion.

any discussion is good discussion. I'm not going to look over any topic or dismiss anything on the grounds of wifom.
In my first mini normal I was given the stern warning that wifom is not the holy grail of mafia. I never dismiss anything on the grounds of wifom. I just take that into cinsideration in my evaluation of the evidence.
AS critical thinking here :p

where was I?

[Twistedspoon]

I'm going to be controversial

VOTE: no lynch

discuss

[Twistedspoon]

^This

[Twistedspoon]

think about it

the only reason we don't NL is to keep an odd number of players from going into LyLo

the Jailkeep/doc protect has already messed this up, so we need to restore the balance by No lynching

that and I have no outstanding scumreads. Noragar?

I'm going to re-read Otolia on Gbevil

[Twistedspoon]

townieness list

TOWN
morthas
Haylen
Muffin
Gbevil
Norgar
MAFIOSO?

[Twistedspoon]

why can't we no lynch?
sigh

VOTE: noragar

[Twistedspoon]

do you still think forest got a not guilty on muffin?

[Twistedspoon]

VOTE: Norgar
I was of the impression an espe lynch would lead us to a near-certain noragar lynch today, as I wanted

my theory is that noragar is the scum rolecop
noragar rolecop'd forest N1 and killed forest N2

If anyone has a strong objection to this lynch then speak now. Otherwise this lynch should happen as I wanted it to from D1.

[Twistedspoon]

it is just you muffin who finds noragar town

I comprimised to an espe lynch yesterday. you should today

[Twistedspoon]

why is 718 a slip?

[Twistedspoon]

if muffin was scum i feel he'd be wagoning noragar with me

[Twistedspoon]

scum muffin has no reason to defend noragar

[Twistedspoon]

I didn't think espe was that scummy either :/

[Twistedspoon]

TS...you were on his wagon.

that has been explained

[Twistedspoon]

I still don't like that either of you (TS and Hayl) jumped on the wagon without being convinced of Espescum.

neither do i

but we needed info. I was confident noragar was scum and I thought we all had a mutual agreement to lynch noragar today if i comprimised with an espe lynch yesterday

sometimes we can't all have our favourite lynch. Yesterday was an example

and it didn't matter to me anyways since I'm still adamant noragar is scum and thought we were lynching him today