ASOIAF: Test of Faith Mafia (Game Over!)

[Thor665]

Sweet, looks like everyone's figured out everything already.

Vote: LynchMePlease

[Thor665]

An Andy/Plum hydra? Yeah, I could be down with killing that too - but the Has thing sounds funnier so Bilbo can be town for a while.

[Thor665]

I am not ready for this much explosion.

Magua looks town.

Magua and MoI both might be trying to exploit my 'attack DGB=town meta' Bleh.

MoI is not a good day 1 lynch, even if you think he's scum.
He'll be a good Day 2 lynch though.
I clearly missed the boat on the SK hate - she unvoted from a wagon that was being run up to generate discussion...oooooh, scummy. (<---might be sarcasm)
Let's try this;

Unvote: LynchMePls
Vote: Lost Butterfly

I agree with SK's call that LB is being a bit sheepy, which I wouldn't expect from them.

[Thor665]

MoI is not a good day 1 lynch, even if you think he's scum.
He'll be a good Day 2 lynch though.

You done best be explainin yo

MoI is not a good day 1 lynch, even if you think he's scum.
He'll be a good Day 2 lynch though.

Explain this please.

Really? I'm not sure if both of you are pulling my leg or being pedantic or what. Let's settle for a simple, MoI is not a good Day 1 lynch, and we can debate the rest tomorrow.

@MoI - I have a question, mostly I just skim over your walls anyway so maybe I'm missing something, but here;

1. You believe that if Vezok is scum, that the LMP wagon has a disproportionate amount of scum on it.
2. DGB calls you out for lining up a bunch of town mislynches.
3. You vote DGB and she is scummy because she's aware that there is a lot of town on the LMP wagon.

Did I follow that correctly?

@LostButterfly - it's amazing, I hadn't realized it was scummy to vote Lost Butterfly in this game. Man, now we'll definitely have to lynch you because than we'll know the entire wagon is scum. Win/win, yeah?

[Thor665]

I skim a lot, but I do recall you calling both SK and me in quick succession scum while quoting our votes for you as evidence. What did I miss?

[Thor665]

Sooooo we're town for voting Cow? Making ol' NordIC gods belly-laugh?

Well, I might be MythIC, or, considering the way that thread works, I'll actually be a totally different thing that has nothing to do remotely with the initial thought at all by the time it's finished. It's interesting to watch the growth in action though.

MoI is not a good day 1 lynch,

even if you think he's scum.

Run this by me one more time. How does a scumlynch =/= a good lynch?
(Boldface mine.)

Okay, well at least you went into my answer a bit later, so I won't mock you totally on this one. But, seriously, there are a handful of players I just really don't consider solid Day 1 lynch options. If he's scum, look for a buddy and let's lynch the buddy. If he's alive Day 2 I'll be willing to start considering him. At the moment he is doing...well, his usual hyper logic with a few leaps I think are silly, but which overall looks like scumhunting, and I'd rather donk him around and make him explain some of the odd logic than run a serious wagon on him in any way, shape, or form. If you want to run a "lol, bad logic" wagon let's at least run up vezo or DGB or something because at least i could probably accept that as a good idea. This isn't.

Benmage is town. His thinking is exactly the same as mine.

Benmage just donked Vezo and MoI.
You're voting...SK? Am I missing something?

[Thor665]

Yeah, but non eof you dill donkeys suspect him yet, all we've got is LOL...(insert some sort of case here, if one has been made I don't know what it is). Seriously? You're voting MoI with no case on Day 1 to get him to...crack? Yeah, that wouldn't work on me, or on half a dozen players probably in this game. If I'm missing the case feel free to clue me in, but the current wagon sucks except that maybe desperate scum may be on it if MoI is town. Whoop-dee-doo on that being very useful to us Day 2.

[Thor665]

I explained in the post right above your remarks what I thought was going on. I'm not sure how I can make it any clearer - everyone with half a brain knows what this wagon is (unless I really am just an idiot missing a case - feel free to point me towards it).
It's a silly pressure wagon.
If MoI is scum he isn't going to break and start sobbing like a schoolgirl (that's Mina's job )
If MoI is town we just lynched a solid protown player for the negligible gain of knowing some scum were probably salivating and dry humping this wagon. Whoo-hoo.

How about we get a Lost Butterfly vote for claiming the first voter on an RVS wagon that ballooned up unvoting the next time they post in thread is a scumtell because they weren't willing to stick by the wagon, and also for sheeping ruddy Empking reasoning. Seriously.

[Thor665]

Oh, shi- I forgot, I was talking to SPyrex.

HEY, SPYREX, I AM THE [CURSE WORD OF CHOICE]. THIS WAGON IS [CURSE WORD OF CHOICE] [2ND CURSE WORD OF CHOICE]ING JOIN ME ON IT AND WE WILL [3RD CURSE WORD OR GENERAL INVECTIVE]ING OWN![MULTIPLE EXCLAMATION MARKS].

There, now he'll sheep me.

[Thor665]

@Magua - I grow on people. Like a fungus.

@LB - I can think of multiple motivations with varying alignments for both players. Are you actually buying into Empking's "lol, SK is probably LMP's scumbuddy and got scaridy-cat about wagon strength" tell?
Also, if they're so obv. scum why are you dancing around with me instead of screaming at all the lack wits not noticing and wagoning other players? Last i checked Mina could run a mean train, and yet I don't hear a choo-choo, so...?

And, cute, now we're claiming my reads are so bad i must not be reading the game. Queue up the music for "Thor isn't playing as well as he should be" It's a popular song this year.

[Thor665]

Bleh, fair point.
your screaming death clan technique is weaker than mine though - you need more exclamation points and expletives.

Though that MoI wagon is bigger - thoughts of your top competition?

[Thor665]

@Spyrex - I hear you talking, and all i translate is 'gut'. You haven't sold me on nuffin'.

@LB

1. I brought up Mina because I want more of Mina, i can read Mina.
2. I actually thought calling you out on sheeping Emp was not a bad call. Everyone and their uncle seemed to agree he was bubbling around with theoretical nonesense and there you are backing his play. Bleh.
3. The interacting with me spiel was because I...had read but not read the post counts clearly enough...yes...but basically I thought the wagon was smaller and for how sure you were coming back at me with stuff I was displeased with the focus.
4. Can you point out the MoI case to me? I legitimately do not believe it exists. Please prove me wrong and I will let you touch my beard.

@LB/Faraday - you don't get to claim knowledge of my meta and then act like it's reasonable for Spyrex to call me out for an aggressive ay 1 defense. Bad!

[Thor665]

Thor's bizarre defense just makes this even worse

How is it bizarre in any way? Be specific.

[Thor665]

@Spyrex - IN THIS GAME how is he being scummy at all? I disagree with some of his apparent stated logic, but I don't see him as an optimal lynch.

@LB
Saetal's point on MoI is that he disagreed with what you and Emp are pushing on SK. Yeah, *big* scumtell there.
DGB is on him for the fake counterclaim - to heck with that.
Bilbo is on him for...not sticking by his comment that if Vezo is scum than the LMp push had scum...but yet MoI never claimed evidence that Vezo is scum.
And now he appears to mostly be attracting heat for attacking DGB, which is the usual response for attacking DGB in my opinion, and is very much not a scumtell.

This is the case, a disparate hodge podge of nothing? I think I was being kinder by referring to it as a pressure wagon.

I pooh-pooh on your Empking till I see him produce some results. I haven't played with him much but I haven't exactly walked away with my bosom aquiver afterwards to the point I'd want to sheep him.

So you seriously believe SK got spooked off of scumbuddy LMP? If that's the case, why aren't either of you pushing on LMP, he'd be the more valuable scum, yeah?

EBWOP

I don't think AGM is quoting me there...

[Thor665]

Also, did you accuses me of being a lurker?
I hate you.

[Thor665]

If Vezok flips scum those that actively chose to not vote uber-VI Vezok and instead went with LMP have juicy, juicy scum waiting to be picked hiding in that list.

How is joining an RVS wagon in any way "actively choosing" LMP over Vezok? If Vezok flipped scum, I'd actually look at you as a likely buddy for trying to tie random voters to him.

Why is getting off an L-3 (I think) wagon a scum-tell when Saint K's vote was the first vote and clearly RVS? Should he be required to keep his RVS vote on a wagon if he doesn't see it as valid?

Why is it scummy to get on but we're not allowed to question anyone who gets off?

@Saetal - here is your vote on MoI.
Stated issues are disagreement with how he's calling the Vezok LMP wagon connection in the first quote.
Second issue is asking why it's scummy that SK fled from the wagon wailing and flinging hands in the air.
You then voted him - did I miss an angle of your case?

[Thor665]

So, I'm saying take that meta and throw it into the sun and if you're gonna tsk tsk it better be for better than what I'm getting.

Tsk Tsk.

All I'm saying is he's a good enough player that he's not worth lynching on this weak as sin wagon you guys are cobbling together. It's silly. Stop acting like you've caught obv. scum - the case isn't there, it's a collection of reads all agreeing someone is scummy for different things and is, in fact, multiple RVS quality votes that have conglomerated into a big wagon off of nothing. I doubt any of the current voters could explain a reason for the wagon that the others would concur with - that's why it's terrible.

And Day 2 is a better day to discuss MoI lynchings, straight up.

[Thor665]

And... if this wagon is weak as sin and made from nothing why in the name of everything holy would it be open to debate tomorrow?

I wouldn't want it to be this wagon Day 2, but I bet on Day 2 it wouldn't be this wagon.

Have you looked at the player list? Solid day 1 options are a rarity. We're going to have to cut into the muscle.

I'm on MoI for a whole lot more than a fake counterclaim. Don't speak for me.

You also screamed that he was obvious scum for thinking vezok was scum which he never claimed, but I was trying to keep it simple. Could you give me your sentence in a sentence or two? I did request it a couple of times.

What's this bizniss about optimal lynches? It's hard enough to organize a town to lynch scum... now we have to optimize for gawd-knows-what nebulous criteria? NO.

I disagree with this on such a huge level.

Thor: who else would you rather not lynch on D1? Do you think ANY of the points on MoI are good?

I've outlined the MoI wagon as I see and understand it. So far I've had a couple people go "yeah, that's it...::shrug::" and a couple others go "No, that's not it at all, you don't understand ::act busy as opposed to clarify::"
I'm really thinking I'm dead on the money here.

Let's clarify to 'rather not lynch in this weak way' a bit, but - yes - there are other players in general on the site and specifically in this game I'd rather not see dead on Day 1 because I think it hurts town's chances. It's awkward to say, but basically the list as it specifically goes to this game is you, MoI, cow, and Lost Butterfly. Yes, I am well aware of where my vote is.

[Thor665]

...but you're being overly difficult[...].
You also seem to be taking little snipes at people. It's like you're trying to be annoying.

That would be the dumbest, most counterproductive scum strategy EVA, don't you think?

That's a good point.

Unvote: Lost Butterfly
Vote: Maemuki

Reasoning - I dislike the big wagons.

[Thor665]

well, flip is the wrong word, but knows I am town.

Scum and Cult in this game... (though I'm of the opinion LMP isn't cult). Not sure I'm sold by that as a good tell just yet. Padding for future case, maybe, but not a viable tell now methinks.

[Thor665]

Reasoning - I dislike the big wagons.

What don't you like?

Iso me.
Also, stop skimming. i can do it because I have charming wit and a handsome beard, but it's my schtick - you can't have it.

[Thor665]

*points at LB*
*Points at cow*
*Brings hands together*
*Does the hokie-pokie*

[Thor665]

So, let me get this straight.
1) You think he's scum.
2) You don't want to lynch scum_Magna.
3) You think that keeping him around will help us find his buddies?
4) The Magna lynch is bad logic.

1 - I have never said I thought MoI was scum. I haven't said I thought he was town either - his wagon looks weak enough I would predict town, frankly. I certainly don't think he's scum and am sticking my neck out this far for him.
2 - If I 100% knew he was scum I would lynch him. Other than that this is an awkward question laced with your bias which has no proof.
3. If he is scum, yes, I think him being alive longer will give us more information on his buddies - that's how it is with anyone.
4. Yes.

Because I fail to see how a scumlynch is not a desireable lynch D1. What kinda' Norse weed you smoking?

If we knew 100% he was scum - sure, it's desirable.
If it's 50/50, it's not desirable because he still might be town and will be more helpful after a day than not. Duuuur. Why is this so hard to grok for people? Has no one been in a game where MoI tagged scum within like two days? I have...multiple times.

We do. Set and Spy do. Votecounts are for reading, Thor.

So are Spy's posts when he's mocking me not agreeing with me

Tootown4lynch is not a default state - especially with the conditional "ohh TOMORROW would be fine".

Still confused as to how lynching scum_Magna today is not optimal play.

So apparently being "good" at this mafia thing is enough to spare you from a lynch? Good to know.
OH WAIT.
That's shit reasoning, sorry Thor.
OH WAIT. I'm not sorry.

People legitimately advance the idea of policy lynches Day 1, because "bad" players must be removed Day 1, and regardless of their alignment because overall it will help the game.
I'm advocating a policy...no lynch? Whatever - it's the mirror reflection of the idea. There are certain players it's better to let simmer for at least a night because it is more likely to help town by them being around.

And... if this wagon is weak as sin and made from nothing why in the name of everything holy would it be open to debate tomorrow?

To: Thor
From: Spy and Andy[/quote]
*sigh* I already answered this when Spy said it. I'll answer it again;
His lynch is open, this current crud case would not be.

I agree with LB's question towards you about your cult recruiter call. I also seriously question calling a cult recruiter by a person playing a 'under the radar' game while also pissing blood about attention on Maemuki.

[Thor665]

Here's the non-wall version.

Bilbo is being silly. and bases all his outrage on MoI being 100% scum and the case on him being, somehow, awesome.

I agree with LB's question towards Bilbo about your cult recruiter call. I also seriously question calling a cult recruiter by a person playing an 'under the radar' game while also pissing blood about attention on Maemuki.

[Thor665]

2 - If I 100% knew he was scum I would lynch him.

I'm just trying to understand the logic in the universe where lynching scumreads D1 is not a good move.
1) I can accept that you don't think he's scum. But the issue isn't really whether you think he's scum or not; the issue is that you're against lynching scum D1.
3) I can agree with that, but again- lynching scum > lynching town.

1 - I left part 2 in as an answer to your part 1. Please stop putting words into my mouth. I'm against lynching certain players on a Day 1 wagon even if people are bellowing 'obv. scum' because, newsflash, it's not obvious.
3. Sure - this has bearing how in the what now? Are you assuring me that MoI is going to flip scum? Because I don't think you are. I want to be on the record for being against this lynch, in the odd 33% chance he flips scum I'll look silly, in the more likely 66% considering the gak case I'll look brilliant. I'm game for those odds.

Who are your top scumreads, Thor?

Maemuki for sanity reasons.
Benmage for not crowing about the MoI lynch more.
How about you vote Maemuki instead...she's scum, and, y'know, we can't possibly not lynch scum, unless you're un-American or something.

Erm, not the same thing. If someone is scummy you lynch them. [snip] Not lynching a scumread is lunacy.

Let's pretend i was really good at the game of Mafia (you'll have to work with me on this example )
Okay, so let's say I'm good enough I have a 10% better than average chance to peg scum within two lynches.
If you think I'm "scummy" you conclude that it's definitely not worth keeping me around to see my reads on Day 2? Even if you want to lynch me Day 2, and I flip town, I'll have served town better. Yeah, if I'm scum you bought me a day - consider it a 1:1 trade or something. I don't feel this is an off the wall concept I'm shopping here. Why don't you try to explain, strategically, why I'm wrong instead of just going "THOR DOESN"T WANT TO LYNCH SCUM!" Because...that's either not an argument and/or is strawman enough that it's not valid to sell me on anything.

I'm also a little worried about Thor, but that can wait until Day 2,

I just found this ironic.

I found it histronic, but I don't take my pills enough.

[Thor665]

Thor: have you ever expressed a similar position on someone in a game before? I.e. the anti policy lynch.

No.
I've probably made less explicit calls of 'let's not lynch Player 'X' today, but certainly nothing like this.

EBWOP = Dorf, forgot this with last wall - ignore the man behind the curtain!

[Thor665]

Unless, of course, he comes up with this magical case on some other people which convinces me not to vote for him.

*sigh*

We can live in hope, eh?

Unvote: Maemuki
Vote: Nexus

I can hang a hat here.

Seriously, Nexus, what the frell?

[Thor665]

I agree with Magua, nexus is reading town. The vote switchers from MoI to nexus blow.

You mean...Cow? He was the only one.

Also, why so laid back this game? Did they finally give you the right medication or something? With an MoI run Day 1 I sort of expected you to be diddling his skull and laughing uproariously the entire time as you quaffed beer, instead we get...whatever this is. Whassup?

[Thor665]

@DGB - his wagon is down to L-2, are we still requiring a claim, and on what grounds? We don't need to do this wagon out of force of impetus at this stage. Do you really feel happy with how the wagon has grown and how it got to this stage? I'm not. I'd still like it to die like a weasel in an acid bath. There are multiple questionable votes on it, and there is lack of clarity about why he is scum. This is not a good lynch.

Specifically - how do you feel about Benmage's play today?

[Thor665]

Besides Daycops I've never seen one.
And he's at L-2.
Setael can be town now for seeing what I'm seeing. (though I'd say Benmage in his list, not Magua)

[Thor665]

There is definitively more than that if MoI is scum and quadruply more if he's cult.

Please explain quadruply cult vs. scum.

[Thor665]

So, since more cult will be on the wagon than scum would be....how many scum and cult do you think we have here in this game? I would have predicted 1-2 cult, tops. You apparently have knowledge that says otherwise.
Also, I predict your prediction is correct...since you predicted every possible outcome. Whoop-dee-doo.

SpySpy can go into the scum pool to splash around for a while.

Everyone else may proceed with the zombie sleep walk on this lynch.

[Thor665]

So the addition of 1 cult as a potential alternate wagon pusher will dramatically increase (quadriplepy even) the amount of scum on the wagon? By...what, 1?
Someone is using bad arguments and wording because they're scum and aren't actually scumhunting via information they claim to believe.

[Thor665]

Thor will be nigh unbearable if MoI flips town.

Considering how you guys are blatantly plotting lynches of me based on pretty much whatever MoI flips - darn skippy I will be. This is stupid as hell; Thor could be town defending scum, but if MoI is scum, Thor is Cult, and if his is Cult Thor is scum, though other derpy head says if MoI is cult Thor is obv. cult, and blerpy-derpy-dooh-daa.

And I do work on logic, it's just logic I rarely can or choose to explain out in small words. Plus, what logic I have explained people have become exceedingly bizarre about as they translate it out to mean lots of different things that I have repeatedly noted are not what I'm saying.

Proceed away.

Also, Kast, any read at all on Benmage - and why do you not have a read on him yet?

[Thor665]

Between the combined reasoning of the two of you I don't think I'm exaggerating much. I'll concede you're mostly hung up on me if MoI flips scum/cult - which goes against every basic logic of scum/cult defending someone, but rock on with that.

[Thor665]

@Spyrex - take a glance at what Kast was spouting, add it to you, I stand by the comment.

@DGB/Spyrex - If I start adamantly defending him while denying there is ever a time it will be good to lynch him can we stop this wagon? You are both insaner than me by a good three steps.

@Benmage - I'm a batter not a catcher.

[Thor665]

Well, to be honest you did, and than Spy countered, and then you accepted his counter as valid, and then I came back with a counter offer to try and stop the MoI wagon...so, what's the confusion?

[Thor665]

Yes, the part about "do not lynch him today, but lynch him tomorrow" is a burr in my cheese.

Please quote where I said this.
Than realize that I said I'd be willing to talk about lynching him tomorrow - which is something else on every level.

[Thor665]

Anyway, all that being said, MoI is posting elsewhere on site and not claiming.

He posted once a day in a different game each day.
He has posted once, in one other game, since his last post here.
Please expand on how this is an obvious scumtell?
Also, he's at ruddy L-2.

[Thor665]

Guys, I got a really cool PM last night, I'll paraphrase it;

Magna was a mislynch.
You say it coming.
You've gained

350

exp. points.

Thor665

has leveled up!
Gain +1 Beard
Gain +1 Charm
Gain +100 Full of yourself

I'm game for this;

Vote: Nexus

I forget who else I wanted to lynch yesterday, they're probably all scum too.

[Thor665]

Awwww - total color code fail, the joke is ruined and left in sadface-ville.

[Thor665]

Unvote: Nexus
Vote: Benmage

Actually, I'd rather explore this.

[Thor665]

You should vote Benmage. 100% of the time my beard is 33% correct.

[Thor665]

You make it look so easy, I wonder if anyone else can do it?

[Thor665]

I don't recall understanding how Magua=Cult Recruiter.

[Thor665]

Benmage is town AT THIS JUNCTURE trust me on this.

I feel like I'm being assaulted by wet wiffle balls.
I don't have an issue with the SK wagon anymore though, so carry on as you will for the moment.

I reckon if nobody can give me a quick bullet point as to why Magua is obv. cult leader that wagon should die now.
My recollection of the case is "lawl, he's lurker and Magua usually isn't" and that has to be me misrepresenting and diminishing the case, right?

[Thor665]

Nobody else sees Benmage's total wimpification as a glaring and flashing red streetlight of 'you shouldn't be ignoring this'
Because it hurts my eyes.

[Thor665]

Thor makes bad voteS

Really?
How is voting Benmage a "bad vote"? Do you have a strong town read on him you forgot to mention?

[Thor665]

Who was my other opening vote - Nexus? You can explain how that one was a bad vote too. Or at least clarify which is bad and why.

[Thor665]

How is Benmage "obvious town"?
I don't see it and it would save time if I could - clear it up please?

[Thor665]

I can't really see any concievable scum motivation behind the content in his posts. There aren't many but those posts are town posts.

Which makes him...obvious town?
I also disagree with you about a lack of potential scum motivation - I don't have enough information to feel confident blurting that out.
What are your thoughts on my call about Benmage playing unlike he normally does? I've played with Benmage as town - it is nothing like the current situation. Do you have any thoughts on this meta accusation of an obvious town player?

You also call MoI lynch bad because he was looking town.
You than call me scum for defending MoI (and call my blatant wagoning attempts to run a counter wagon on him opportunistic voting to avoid a big wagon).
Thoughts?

[Thor665]

I didn't deflect - I specifically said I didn't like either wagon and called both SK and MoI town.
Could you link me to a Ben as town game where he plays like this?

[Thor665]

@Espeo - I see apologies for missing too many days in a row from him in that game, and I see zero issue with reading up, and never is there a day he manages to post where it's not multiple posting - unlike here.
Also, he's not offending anyone, and over half his posts are dueling with me.
Look at the town game - insults, aggravation, excitment, small firework displays, and a lesson to the kids at the end that town don't try to look town, town find scum.
So you're saying he's being fairly quiet and town looking?
I say that's him being scum.

[Thor665]

oooh. oooooooooh.

When is Mina getting back? I can read Mina.

[Thor665]

Let's clarify to 'rather not lynch in this weak way' a bit, but - yes - there are other players in general on the site and specifically in this game I'd rather not see dead on Day 1 because I think it hurts town's chances. It's awkward to say, but basically the list as it specifically goes to this game is you, MoI, cow, and Lost Butterfly. Yes, I am well aware of where my vote is.

So, why was LB such a worthwhile Day 1 vote here?

Go read any game I have ever been in with Mina.
Watch pressure happen.
Watch very accurate reads come about.

going down the Benmage-isn't-obvTown-let's-argue-this point route when it comes to his Benmage vote, after the whole MoI-case-is-nonexistent-&c. thing. But when Espe says Ben is a bad vote, and Thor argues against that.

Are you saying I'm scummy because I don't believe Benmage is an obvious mislynch but I did believe MoI was? Yeah, it might be a shock but I think people I vote are usually scummy. It's a habit.
What do you think of the Benmage meta read I offered to explain my case? You didn't seem to think it was worth mentioning despite having issues with me arguing how Benmage isn't obvious town.

[Thor665]

I had to look up rumbaed - I'm getting 'past tense of rumba (the dance' I'll go with you're insulting me, but...

In the game Espeo linked you downplayed your scummy winning game as not one of your best and that the scum were weak. You think it's a prime bit of meta experience with you? What about the other Song games I've played with you (and some other games as well) where I think bombastic is really a succinct and accurate way to describe your play, and you're clearly playing anything but here.

I disagree that dumb Thor = town Thor. I'm an equal opportunity idiot. But thanks for downplaying my play without actually really addressing it. It's usually a good idea to suggest anyone who attacks you is too dumb to be trusted. Cute.

[Thor665]

@Thor - Regarding LB, possibly fair enough (though one wonders how effective the pressure would be when Mina is not only hydra'd with Faraday but also after you said outright that you generally would not consider LB an advantageous Day 1 lynch among the players in this game).

You'll note when I made that list I noted the oddity of my vote - I basically had a decision to make as far as answering the question or continuing the angle effectively. If you're going to call me on something please look at the whole picture.

Regarding the Benmage thing: I'm having a bit of trouble articulating it, but it seems to me out of balance the way you argued that MoI was super-advantageous not to lynch Day 1 because he was so not doing scum things and why couldn't people see that it was stupid vs. the way you reacted when Espe said that your votes were bad because Ben was obvtown and you argued it. You dismissed - in no uncertain terms, in fact, you argued that there literally was no MoI case and you would not concede that believing otherwise was believable. Yet when Espe comes and argues that your vote was stupid because Ben is obviously Town, you take offense.

I strongly disagree with this conclusion.
Go back and look - my issue with the MoI case was because it was a conglomeration of votes from lots of different reasoning, none of which particularly agreed (I also disagreed with a lot of the individual cases and said so)
Espeo calls out my Benmage vote as being on obv. town, yet when asked why Ben is obv. town the answer is a weak "none of his posts look scummy"
Finally - please explain how disagreeing with a wagon, means I have to automatically disagree with anyone who disagrees with a wagon I start. That doesn't actually make any sense. Also, my big disagreement with Espeo was asking for opinions on his case, pretty blatantly reading the game he linked, and explaining why I still didn't see it as applicable evidence.
What I got with my MoI defense was "lol, Thor is stupid defending obv. scum and is obv. scum now himself" Totally different reactions. Please explain the mental hypocrisy in my head that is being showcased.

Also, you seriously find Benmage townish right now? I want you to place this opinion on record.

@Empking - that's exactly DGB's point methinks.

[Thor665]

Dumb Thor is a town Thor.....this blind tunneling Thor may be a bird of a different color.

Man, I cause reverse reads fast around here.
So you can't be scum because as scum you're perfect? I'm not sure I should buy that.

Blargh failure to link posts.

[Thor665]

@Empking - that's exactly DGB's point methinks.

What's DGB's point? Its a null tell

She just outlined a belief that scum strategy would not involve the actions SK is currently taking. That's either a town tell call on SK or I hate DGB. If you disagree with the town tell you want to debate with the source not the translator.

[Thor665]

@Benmage - when I track them down and read them I'll get back to you. Besides, I'm too busy tunneling you which was showcased in one post and flipped your read on me.

[Thor665]

@Ben - If I'm stupid I'm town, but if I'm tunneling I could be scum. The implicit suggestion is 'get off me bro and I'll forgive you the trespass and call you town.'

[Thor665]

I thought I spent all of yesterday doing nothing but defending MoI It's good to know everyone agrees I'm being one dimensional I guess.

Top three; You, Nexus...probably if I had to throw out a third I'd edge in Cow, but really my third feels more like a clump of lurkers and nulls.

So far you've called me out for tunneling and are on vezo for OMGUS (LOL!) who are your top three?

[Thor665]

Above is @Benmage.

[Thor665]

@Espeo - Gut, beard, and meta. You can add in his promise to be calling me town as long as I stopped tunneling on him too. I also, as noted when I rebutted your meta example, don't feel you've particularly smashed my meta case, do you have a response to that rebuttal?

What is the Setael alliance?

[Thor665]

Who has Setael made an alliance with that you'd like opinions on - I checked your and his iso and didn't spot you calling him on it or him calling it out.

It's sad that you believe beard holds the most substance. I disagreed that you proved anything, is your solution to, like Benmage, just sort of sit back and insult my intelligence and figure that makes you right? What do you think of how he offered me a town read in exchange for getting off his backside? If you don't think he did this - what do you think changed between him calling me town to him suddenly implying I was possibly scum - it's not like I'd really tunneled him that much more between the posts.

[Thor665]

Oh, wait, i get it - you're asking for opinions on your Setael 'case' and calling it 'alliance', yes?

[Thor665]

All I could think was Alli sound. Alliance Alignment. Same diff.

He's been voting pretty similar to how I've been and he didn't like the MoI wagon and called out the strange mentality that was leading it to completion. I think he's town.

Go look at why I think you are scum. It has little to do with tunnelling. That is an issue you take up with Ben. The Ben discussion started because you were trying to backup a read because I called you out on trying to stay out of the action. The Ben digression has developed to where it is its own debate. My issue with you in not that debate. I'm willing to call the point moot and go back to the original. There are two more cases of what I find scummy not including the Ben one.

I'm indifferent to debate with you why you find me scummy. I'm trying to discuss with you why you find Ben obv. town. I'm trying to get you to respond to my rebuttal of you donking my meta case on him.

As for the tunnelling comment, no you aren't tunnelling. Again that isn't for me to dispute with you.

So, you don't think I'm tunneling him? That's swell. What do you think of his reaction to my pressure on him - does he still look obv. town? I want your opinion on a tell I'm using, same as you asking me about your case on Setael. You asked me about what my Ben case was, I'm trying to get you to look at it. Go read Ben's response to my pressure on him and tell me if you think that looks like town response. I really and very strongly do not.

[Thor665]

@Espeo - This is the post. You responded to it, but basically just responded that I looked scummy for other reasons rather than consider my call on Benmage. Your basic gist appeared to be that he jumpstarted that game - which I'm not sure how it was applicable in any way to this game. I'll agree I think he was playing different, but I don't think that was your point.

[Thor665]

@Spyrex - your read on Benny - go!

[Thor665]

Are you serious?

True story: it would take less effort to write town/scum than it would to ask this question.

[Thor665]

So you don't find any strangeness in his most recent interaction with me?
What do you think about the jump where I went from stupid town to tunneling possible scum within the span of about one post?

[Thor665]

Benmage (1) - Thor665 (trying desperately to get conversation going while a few players just sort of go - obv. town is obv.)
vezokpiraka (1) - Benmage (hasn't explained yet, contiunes to provide nothing except occasional defense - is called obv. town by people for some reason)
SaintKerrigan (6) - Lost Butterfly, Locke Lamora, SpyreX, vezokpiraka, AlmasterGM, Empking (a pink elephant in the room no one on her seems to be growling about to the rest of us)
Empking (1) - hasdgfas (::crickets::)
hasdgfas (1) - DrippingGoofball (::crickets::)
Thor665 (2) - Espeonage, Bilbo Baggins (Sadly - a better worked for wagon than most of them. Though I disagree with it)
Bilbo Baggins (1) - SaintKerrigan (::crickets::)
Locke Lamora (1) - Magua (::crickets::)

Not Voting (4) - Nexus, LynchMePls, Setael, Hinduragi (::failures::)

I think this sums up the current game state. Whassup?

[Thor665]

Tunneling on someone going derp derp your playstyle doesn't matchup to what I am accustomed to.. WHEN I proved your references wrong..and provided further examples of your inaccurate belief is just being stubborn an not beneficial in any manner whatsoever.

So where do you think my vote should be to be helpful? Vezo?

[Thor665]

-I don't get a good feeling about Benmage's play here. I get the impression that it's a bit more jokey and lacks the Benmage aggression that I associate with his scumhunting.

Dryhumps Locke's leg.
Thank gawd, I was beginning to feel like I was the one eyed man in the proverbial kingdom.

I don't think I'm smart enough to understand how SK's claim was obv. fake - enough people are saying so that I suppose there's meat to the issue, but I'm just flat out admitting I'm too dumb to see it.
That said, changing from Soul to Smith suggests an awareness of multiple roles, which suggests a fakeclaim list or some other such chicanery. The Espeo upswing appears to be connected to the whole 'fakeclaim' thing which bewilders me even further as he's apparently scummy because of some sort of awareness of fakeclaim...or something?

Vote: Espeonage

Amping up counter wagon for VCA until I manage to figure out what the slip was. Plus - delayed OMGUS.

[Thor665]

Not that I'm aware of - how about you verbalize the contradiction. I don't see it.

[Thor665]

So the obvious fake claim is that she picked some sort of priest thing that doesn't make sense as a Vig fluffwise? My issue with her change partway through feels more meaty.
Espeo's 180 on that one looks more suspect to me.
Plus - Mina walls, huzzah.

[Thor665]

@Spyrex

Clarify something for me - as far as I can tell your timeline goes something like this;

SpySpy: SK suxx0rs donkey reproductive organs, lynch it with fire!
Espeo: Naaaaah, is town.
SK: Pants on head claim of a thing that fluffwise doesn't exist!
SpySpy: SUper obvious slip of fail is super obvious...and fail!
Espeo: Yar, so fail and super obvious, lynch it with fire!
SpySpy: LOL u r scumm0rz 2!!!

I mean, if the SK slip is so crazy bad obvious...why is Espeo crazy bad obvious scum for spotting it too - thoughts?

[Thor665]

All I've learned is that LMP is prob town.

[Thor665]

vezokpiraka (1)

- Benmage

Empking (1)

- hasdgfas

hasdgfas (1)

- Magua

Not Voting (3)

- Nexus, Setael, Hinduragi

Since apparently none of you actually care wht your vote does - might as well sheep onto the Espeo wagon. We have cushy seats.

[Thor665]

Hey all those words you asked for. Opinions yes/no?

Opinion yes, nothing much worth saying though. You basically sold me on not shouting repeatedly that you should be voting Espeo instead as now I understand your thrust.

[Thor665]

I hate the cult of DGB.

[Thor665]

@Hind - I read that entire thing and got a lot of understanding for who you think is town, but...why is Cow scum? I don't see anything in there that clarifies that.

[Thor665]

No, he'd need to point at Hind and then at himself - you're misrepresenting the language.
Plus, Cow is sheeping a question I already asked.

[Thor665]

I'm now against the cow wagon.

[Thor665]

I was never for the Cow wagon, but I wasn't against it either. now I am against it.
Yeah, Benmage's really bad vote is kind of the magical cherry atop a wagon shift that seems awkward and out of nowhere. It's primarily squeamishness with him though - I still have no idea how anyone can be calling him town with a straight face.

[Thor665]

Depends on the cheese and the burger, usually. But presuming equal relative quality;
Gourmet Burger vs. Roncal
McDonald's Burger vs. American Cheese
Yes, I would say I prefer burgers to cheese. Do I get a burger if I vote hascow? Do I get cheese if I stick with Espeo? I feel like you might be making a debate point based on nothing, but I love both cheese and burgers so I want to weigh my options here. How about you just do me a favor and attempt to put into cognitive words how you feel about Benny-boy's and Hinduragi's votes on this wagon. If you are relatively equal in feelings between Espeo and Cow how about you spring back to Espeo and let's actually run this one through.

@Benmage - there's a fire you could probably be dying in right now, isn't there? You know how I always joke about how I leave you alive as scum because your play can be anti-town if you're wrong...this is not that lay. This is limp-wrist city and you need to die asap.

[Thor665]

306
"MoI is scum because he doesn't feel genuine"
That tells me a lot. How about you guys?

That tells me Cow was part and parcel of the terrible MoI wagon which was terrible due to multiple players and multiple cases that all stunk both separately and collectively. Are you saying Cow's was the worst reasoning on that wagon, and that's why he's the scum?

373,<"Nexus is town" proclaimed by 3-4 people>,381
"Nexus is scum." <Nexus-town> "MoI is more of a priority. Back to the wagon"
Because MoI isn't genuine and is now a priority, even though Nexus is scum.

I'm confused what the scumtell is with this one. You have accurately described what he did, and probably I'm just being dense, but what was the scum maneuver here?

[Thor665]

So you're accusing Cow of bad reasoning on a wagon overflowing with such - and trying to blend in?

What's your read on Benmage (and feel free to check out his votes this game and compare them to Hascow)?

[Thor665]

So you're saying it is scummy that SK did it...and consequently it is also scummy that Benmage did it?

[Thor665]

Sk does it = further proof of scumminess.
Benmage does it = obv. town.

Come the frell on, Spy, what the hell art thou smokin'?

[Thor665]

So, Setael - how come you're not voting?

[Thor665]

at the end of the day, a botched claim is a botched claim

But isn't the botched claim a thing that doesn't exist? It would be like playing a DC Comics Mafia and have somebody botch their claim by saying 'I'm Harry Potter' Well...yeah....that claim is pretty botched, but I'm not sure why it has to be a scum botch. Thoughts?

[Thor665]

To answer your question, sure, it's possible SK is actually a vig who can't shoot until N3 who misread a piece of information from her role PM. However, I think that scenario is far less likely than the alternative.

What are you suggesting as the unusual part? We have a delayed start Cult in this game - why not delayed start Vig? That part doesn't seem odd to me, and then we can all agree the claim was botched but short of combining up flavors from multiple available fakeclaims or something I'm not sure I get why you think the botch equates to scum.

Could someone remind me why SK is scum regardless of her botched fakeclaim? Okay, sure, she's obv. scum now - botched claim = scum, fine. Why was she scummy enough we wanted to wagon her up?

I can't believe how this game keeps giving me wagon choices that I hate, I'm usually pretty amenable to them.

Unvote: Espeonage
Vote: hasdgfas

I'll sheep DGB with no explanation - apparently it's a thing pro-town people do.

[Thor665]

Fluffwise is R'hllor actually going to be 'Something whatever of Souls'? Is there any other religion likely to say something like that?

[Thor665]

Okay, I think I grok this now, I thought the issue was it was something that didn't exist - plus it's been like 24 hours and no one is even talking about my other sheeping.

Unvote: hasdgfas
Vote: SaintKerrigan

I'll sheep Spyrex with no explanation - apparently it's a thing pro-town people do.

[Thor665]

Then why didn't you clear my head up when I was clearly not getting it?
I'm an idiot, but I'm an honest one;

So the obvious fake claim is that she picked some sort of priest thing that doesn't make sense as a Vig fluffwise?

But isn't the botched claim a thing that doesn't exist? It would be like playing a DC Comics Mafia and have somebody botch their claim by saying 'I'm Harry Potter'

What you should have done is a post like this;

"Her claim is blatantly a claim of cult because the Cult of RayBans is the only religion in the fluffverse that would have Soul in their claim - tell me I'm wrong or vote her now!"

[Thor665]

Benmage is scum, just saying.

[Thor665]

Entertain me for a second. How are you going to feel endgame...if I am somehow not scum?

I'll tear my shirt, beat my chest, cry a manful tear, and pray to gawd I never make an error in a game of Mafia ever again.

What's your call on the Cult Claim slip from SK. Do you not care about the fluff, or are you more worried about Has, or what?

[Thor665]

Vote: Benmage

Can we maybe get this one going today? I know I feel like a broken record here, but he's coasting along and everyone is calling him obv. town and it makes not a lick of sense.

[Thor665]

I think Magua is town, fyi.

[Thor665]

@Thor:

How is Benmage coasting along, but hasdgfas isn't?

Have you ever played with an active and involved cow? I've played...2-3 games with him, he flaked out of one and coasted through the other two. I don't consider coasting to be out of sorts with him nor a clear scumtell as I've seen him do it as both alignments.

I've played with Benmage and have never seen such a lackadaisical, laid back, coasting Benmage. That's why he's scummier for it.

[Thor665]

@Magua - he was called out by me and called obv. town by multiple players. If i was scum I would keep doing *exactly* that. Seriously - iso that sucker, tell me you see scumhunting and pro-town work,
I see opportunistic voting, and lots of defense bantering with me, and nothing else.

[Thor665]

And, hey, easy example, cow was called out by Andrius and...continued to coast as people called him obv. town.

[Thor665]

I remember her doing that. Multiple times.

[Thor665]

Unrelated: Thor is scummy because he should be better than this.

I will be plotting your death soon.

@Spy - whut? If she did ask to be lynched prior to the claim...what does it matter if Magua didn't mention it? SK imploded and had a couple things go wrong, but there were lots of players defending against her lynch in a 2 scum faction game.

[Thor665]

Magua called the wagon bad yesterday, and he's championing the lynch of someone who wasn't even on it, why are your panties in a wad?

[Thor665]

I'd like to see a lot more people both voting and posting.

AND WHY CAN'T I GET A BENMAGE WAGON!

I want people to give Benmage opinions! I don't want null Benmage reads, I seriously want to know who here amongst you is thinking he's town or scum, and I want that info now!

[Thor665]

Thor,

Bulletpoints against Benmage please, cause I'm not seeing it.

Here is my case in a quick format;

Done.
Are you calling him town?

@Thor - You thought Espeonage was scum yesterday, yes? Why have you said nothing about him today?

I want people to give Espeonage opinions! I don't want null Espeonage reads, I seriously want to know who here amongst you is thinking he's town or scum, and I want that info now!

See what I did there?

Also, Benmage was town yesterday. He has not posted yet today. So...

I also thought Benmage was scum yesterday - guess which lynch I'd rather have since even yesterday I got on Espeo because I couldn't get any Benny-boy traction.
Yeah, he's scummy, if I *still* can't even get the courtesy of open debate on Benmage I'll come help you out. But I'm going to try this horse again.
Why was Benmage town yesterday?

[Thor665]

...hate you.

[Thor665]

Because he's coasting, advancing nothing, and wagoning onto lynches while not seeming to have an opinion in the world other than that I'm wrong about hm being scum.

Why is he town?

[Thor665]

I wouldn't have as much issue with his lynch maneuvers if I felt I knew where he stood on...anything.
Replace coasting or advances nothing with 'beard sez so' if it makes you feel happier.

[Thor665]

^^^
Above is @LMP

<3 is at Locke.

[Thor665]

@Emp - read on Benmage?
@Spy - you still lol, obv. town on Benmage?

[Thor665]

@LB - please correct me if I'm wrong, I feel like Mina has made about...what, 3-4 posts this entire game? What is this shazbot?

[Thor665]

DGB is scum for being on the MoI wagon yesterday, and for being the non-town on the Espeonage wagon.

Like her, I'll keep voting someone other than who I just made that case on

[Thor665]

Three mafia in a twenty player game is stupidly low.

Um...cult.

[Thor665]

While I appreciate you reaching the correct conclusion, the way this played out makes me a little nervous. Like you floated me as a lynch, got 0 traction from anyone else on the subject, so then you decided to move me to town. IGMEOY DGB.

She also called me scum for being on Espeo and then called the post when I voted Espeo as an awesome towntell enough to move me from scum to the null middle. It's all pretty normal, unreadable, wish she was dead, DGB play to my mind. Do you actually think this is *unlike* her?

DGB at least thinks hasdgfas is scum too, but Benmage's post is literally "I think Magua is

more

likely to be scum, vote: hasdgfas"

As a thought, you could vote Benmage - he is scum, y'know.

Unrelated: Thor is scummy because he should be better than this.

Also this was used in ASOS as a way to mislynch Thor.

While I appreciate the realization about ASOS and all, that was a very obvious joke - it does not make Magua scummy - please look at my sig line.

And, hey, EVERYBODY - check it out, Benmage still hasn't read up fully but is, yet again, sitting right there on the leading wagon of the day just herpy derping along. Can we please get at least a mini wagon on him? C'mon, it will help his obvious towniness shine through and help motivate him to catch up so he can be the superhuman awesome star you all know him to be.

[Thor665]

I payment you should sheep me on Benmage.

[Thor665]

Go ahead .. ask Thor why I am scum...should be good for a laugh.

I've been asked this and answered during this Day phase.
You're a coasting, non contributing, wagoning, not at all like Benmage, scum. Whassup?

[Thor665]

And how have I been proved wrong if ou don't think I ever presented a case?

[Thor665]

In my mind;

Coasting = being lazy in your posting.
Non-contributing = not supplying functional reads.

it's very possible to do one without the other. You can combine them in your own head if it makes you happier, but I do not feel they are synonyms.

Also, your "proof" was one game, posted by Espeo in defense of you, where I disagreed that your play was identical, and he never brought it up again.
I will bring up both previous ASOIAF games I played with you - you were town and were nothing like this. WHoo-hoo, my meta evidence is now twice your meta evidence. Huzzah for my side.

You are the scummiest person for the reasons you just quoted. I can understand if you dislike my case, but I'm not sure what you're expecting here - a totally brand new case? You just agreed all my points are actually happening. Clearly we're in a point where the debate is whether or not the points are actual scumtells - and I certainly do not expect you to agree with me about that. But now that you just agreed every point I raised against you is valid maybe we can get someone else to come in and actually look at this issue for more than .2 seconds before they call you obv. town.

Prior to voting SK on Day 2 you were also all over hasCow. You have been consistently on large wagons while not actually being willing to really come out and push anything - that is the definition of scummy voting. I dispute that you pushed the MoI wagon - I actually called you out Day 1 for not pushing it while being on it and called that scummy at the time.

[Thor665]

...assigned Daycop?

[Thor665]

Also, your "proof" was one game, posted by Espeo in defense of you, where I disagreed that your play was

identical

, and he never brought it up again.

Link one game for me, from anyone where play is IDENTICAL.

PedanticMafia.
Town of Nitpickers Mafia
Team FDH 2 (Flogging Dead Horse)

Seriously?
"Similar" There.

But you fail to tackle the issue that there are others more guilty of what you are accusing me of... You're calling me out for "scummy" things. I don't think I am as guilty of them as you may... I also know that when I commit these sort of tells they are Bentowntells... Which is why you ought to look up some scum games of mine. But to state so strongly for so long that I am the clear scummiest person in this game is ridiculous... You really think you're that much better than the multitude of people who are calling me obvtown? Or do you really think subpar play is some ultimate grand scheme scum strategy....

Your play is clearly not subpar because most of the players are calling you town when you agree that all you're doing is wagoning and not participating.
I am sooooo neutral on the "but other people are doing it as bad/worse than me!" thing. First off - so we're now agreeing this is a scumtell I've got? Because null for you should be null for them, amirite? Second, I actually don't think anyone has been wagoning while doing nothing anywhere near as much as you - name names and prove me wrong. I'll concede a fair point on Benscum games, I don't think I've ever seen them - I'll be back later tonight with some and some thoughts. I do disagree that this game looks like your townplay though, not buying it. Though, it is wonderful to see that your, by far, most active spell coincides with me actually getting more than 1-2 votes on you. Total coincidence I'm sure.

I dispute that you pushed the MoI wagon -

I actually called you out Day 1 for not pushing it

while being on it and called that scummy at the time.

Quote for me please... I forget this.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 5#p3104215

[Thor665]

@Benmage - other than Inglorious - link to scum game(s)?

[Thor665]

Let's play a game.

Everyone

ought to list the 3 people they, if the CR would seek to recruit.

List 3 please... a bullet as to why would be much appreciated.

I like AGM's answer - definitely I'd be aiming at people who are town looking survivors, but not so town looking as to draw Mafia targets.

You'd be on the list if I hadn't been pushing you so much, because easing off of you subtly would be a pain - but everyone's 'Benmage is town while doing nothing' read is perfect cult universe.
Emp would be a top call - everyone called him obv. town Day 1 but he's barely around now.
LMP would be a good choice too - active, not omg active, no apparent suspicion on him.
I would have done LB if I thought I could be on a definite team with Mina, but Faraday is boring compared to her, so I'd avoid that one

It's like "trololol let's go after Benmage cause he's not doing anything"

WELL WHAT ABOUT LOCKE OR ESPEONAGE THEN, HMMM?

I've agreed to get on Espeo if Benny can't happen, and I've cited Locke as a townread.
Are you saying we should go after Locke and Espeo - or are they just as townie as you called Benmage?

[Thor665]

What's to troll - you don't act that confident for lulz when you've been Daycopped. Magua is totally about to be called inno. unless...what, you think he's scum trying to trick Benmage into calling him scum before mod declares him scum? Yar, Magua votes can go somewhere more useful now, yes?

[Thor665]

Not necessarily... but Magua did imply that he'd be lynched promptly after his mod-confirmation, and that's why he's in a rush to get Benmage to answer his question.

It's like there's a town tell and a scumslip in the same post.

I took it as him suggesting it was possible you'd Vigged him - hence his flip. Not flip via speed lynch due to guilty result.

[Thor665]

Either you're going to kill me or investigate me. Either way, I want Benmage in a position where he's said he's voting me because he finds me scummy, or he's voting me because he finds me stupid, and I want that before I flip town / come up inno.

[Thor665]

Obv. town is obvious....wait...

[Thor665]

I'm on one of the three biggest wagons - and one of those 3 is about to totally dissolve or go into speed lynch mode. How am I coasting again? As I recall your basic accusation was that it was because I was tunneling you? Well - some of us are trying to build a lynch wagon over here.

[Thor665]

And I've called a belief that I think both of them are town, and you just waffled on your Magua read now that it looks like he's been investigated for loltastic clearing and dissolution of his wagon making your wagon, that I have not been selling or working on at all, the second biggest wagon today.
Yeah - color me convinced, I fail at this.

[Thor665]

And when I feel more snarky tomorrow maybe I'll post the string of people I've been abusing super clearly in my iso about their reads on you - how can you even accuse me of not doing that? Fire, go die in one.

[Thor665]

Unvote: Benmage
Vote hasdgfas

Seriously - when Magua thought he had been daycop/dayvig bait his first instinct, as scum, was to try to get Benmage into a 'trap' of calling him town/scum (Benmage did a sidestep shuffle like a champ, fyi) and he did this to advance his scummy agenda of...what now?
Magua wagon is retarded.
Benmage wagon I am on like white on rice if any of you smarten up and add some more oomph to it, but hascow 'not helping anything' wagon is waaaay better than 'Magua...he's scum...because' wagon.
Hate everyone.

[Thor665]

@DGB - you're saying that an unrecruitable cult cop would be unbalancing?

[Thor665]

choosing Thor is not unsupported at all, so saying my choices are unsupported is wrong.

Why was I a good cult investigate?

[Thor665]

That was a fascinating read.

It's odd to say - the fake counterclaim is the first thing Benmage has done that felt like Benmage town to me because he actually felt like he was working and being full of himself because he was sure he was right - *waaay* different from how he reacted to Magua lynch, I need to assess the two and see how I feel, at least night will give me time to actually look over those scum games.
LB looks more town to me now.
The other "town revelation" people that are being whipped out I already thought were town, so, whatevs, I'm brilliant.
I'll agree with Magua about Hindu - there was certainly some cult action there at the end of the hascow wagon and he feels the most questionable.
Emp looks scummier for getting through all that and not offering thought #1 on it, I went through an emotional rollercoaster and all he could do was fumble around and attack a town read? Bleh.

@Has - I'm not frustrated, I'm creatively colorful in my writing.

[Thor665]

Magua: Why do you think hindu was recruited? I'd not recruit him as CL personally, he's looked kinda scummy at times. There are far better recruits out there, in my mind.

Thor said it too, so he can answer I guess.

His was the worst vote on a wagon to slam through a lynch on something that was very bad for cult.

POLICY LYNCH ON BENMAGE, GO.

Oh gawds I'm feeling this. Benmage's play looks *nothing* like he has a guilty on LB.
That said his play finally (sadly?) looks like his townplay. I presume he also knows what he's talking about because he's mumbling about me as cult, not scum, which makes sense as well.

There's no way cult would claim something that would make scum kill them or fish out a town PR that is only a danger to scum.
Scum claiming scum cop after a cult cop flip has balls the size of casaba melons and is functionally setting himself up for death or counterclaim in very short order.
Town...playing in one of the most horrible ways I've seen a cop play...makes the most sense.

Vote: LostButterfly

Hey, scum - counterclaim Benmage and I PROMISE you I'll lynch him first.

[Thor665]

There's no way cult would claim something that would make scum kill them or fish out a town PR that is only a danger to scum.
Scum claiming scum cop after a cult cop flip has balls the size of casaba melons and is functionally setting himself up for death or counterclaim in very short order.
Town...playing in one of the most horrible ways I've seen a cop play...makes the most sense.

Guys, seriously - we're lynching Benmage?
So the theory is he's cult/scum doing this to destroy the uber threat of LB? I mean, I thought LB was town too, but what the frell?

[Thor665]

Look, Thor, if Benmage was a Cop, and he got culted, this is a perfect stunt. They can pretty much DOMINATE mafia, MORESO if he isn't lying. It's a hard Smurfng decision to make.

If he's lying we catch scum.
If he isn't lying we catch scum.
We can still deal with him later - but even a culted scum cop is more likely to be handing us scum at this stage, and killing scum now would be a good thing.

So the theory is he's cult/scum doing this to destroy the uber threat of LB? I mean, I thought LB was town too, but what the frell?

YOU DO REALISE TODAY IS POSSIBLE LYLO, RIGHT?[/quote]
With 14 players alive, a single kill a night, and 2 anti-town factions...how is it lylo?

[Thor665]

The guy who misthinks today is LYLO WANTED TO POLICY LYNCH ME..
Lynch THE FLAILING SCUM NOW.

Actual good call here.
I wonder how many times I'll have to hit submit to get this one through.
1
2

[Thor665]

In the morning I grok the 4-4-6 situation better for lylo claims.

@LB - serious question, what were you going for with your 'policy lynch Benmage' if you feared Cult lylo?

[Thor665]

Your defense is you suck - right.
You also tell me to stop talking to you because 'I'm recruited' but then try to sell me anyway, proving you're trying to bully me into support. Cute, thanks. Good job ignoring I cited him as looking more town yesterday prior to being recruited, and if you think I was recruited yesterday and was buddies with Benmage than you are silly and should have sheeped me.

I don't actually think believing Benmage is a cop is totally out of sorts, he certainly was setting up that fakeclaim very early if that was his intent, and besides being obnoxious I don't see his play as unreasonable. Bleh, you annoyed me with that response so I'm getting bullish - but I think most of your 'proof that Benmage didn't have a guilty' quotes are actually much weaker than Benmages 'I'm a cop, lawl' proof posts.

So your contention is that a player you randomly decided to attack today due to RAGE and desire to tank the game;
1. Was cult.
2. Was cult in the optimal position to win the game because everything has gone right for cult.
3. Was Cult Recruiter all along *or* is an actual cop who can be recruited *or* is scum who can be recruited because he had set up cop fake/real claims since Day 1.
4. Decided everything would keep going his way so well he could afford to hard wagon you today, bet the scum wouldn't kill him tonight (which further suggests he's a real cop with a real guilty on you or is scum - not cult)

What am I missing here?

[Thor665]

@LB - what alignment was Benmage when he did his cop role crumbs?

[Thor665]

You suck for wanting to tank a game out of spite - which is what you said was your logic in calling for BM policy earlier today. You can define your play as 'very good' in that setup if you wish. I strongly disagree.

You really think his spelling of COP in his first three posts is a coincidence? With the weird word setup he went with in the very first post as well?

[Thor665]

@Nexus - he spelled it out in the first letter of his first three posts - look at his iso, it's there.

I just did a search for caboo(m) in Benmage's iso and still have only found one usage of it. People really want to tell me he just decided to use onomatopoeia Day 1, Post 1 in this game for lulz - or do you think it was to help establish the cop claim?

@LB - I've only ever blacklisted one player, and you're still ages from that level of issue, so climb off the cross. Seriously now - you're saying Benmage is cult recruited not-cop who just randomly had his first three posts spell out cop, and is now using that to get you killed? That's what we're going with here? Ockham's Razor is going dull methinks.

EBWOP - That's actually a good point. Please answer my question above.

@Benmage - why were you telling scumLB to replace out?

[Thor665]

BEN - why did you ask the conf. scum to replace out?

[Thor665]

What interplay did you expect to get by asking a scum to replace out?

[Thor665]

god damn it i almost believe benmage could be an insane cop after reading his fucking ISO. but that makes no sense and if he is i'll rage at ooba.

'unless i'm insane LB is scum' is hard to ignore.

</3
You just got done mocking me because you said he looked nothing like a cop and now this? Oh gawds.

Benmage is definitely scum. I know my vote isn't moving.

How do you justify this call when the guy Benmage is claiming is scum is backing away from calling Benmage scum? I've been wanting Benmage dead all game and couldn't get the time of day and now, when he's actually looking town I'm getting this gak? Please, explain the case, I want to see it.

[Thor665]

You forgot Nexus.

[Thor665]

Hmm. The mafia are actually...fairly obvious, or at least 2 out of Espe/Vezok/Cyberset are probs mafia. I'd love to take out the head of the snake today.

Other than Vezok aren't these your top Cult picks as well?

Also - hasn't Cyberset been thumping on the Espe bandwagon since like Day 2? I don't think they're likely to be same alignment.

[Thor665]

That post didn't contain an unvote. Fix that soon.

If you get quickhammered I will be sure to bemoan how I didn't look town enough in unvoting you sooner You and Spy have both overlooked Nexus in your Cult/Scum hunt. Thoughts?

@Emp - I'll actually agree that Ben looks town now, there's very little gain in what he did for cult or scum.

[Thor665]

thor please explain why you're currently voting lost butterfly. claiming cult recruit who's lazy is a reasonable explanation

Because I'm lazy cult.
Let me know how my plan of managing to get you speed lynched goes.

LB looks more town to me now.

Hint: your alignment changing shouldn't be made so obvious. the only thing that happened today were a troll guilty which I was *charismatic as Smurf* when dealing with.

Hint: Cop claim with breadcrumbs plus declared guilty beats gut.
Second hint: I totally want to still lynch you now that he's clarified fakeclaim <--might be sarcasm

[Thor665]

I've had Nexus town whole game..

Gut or something else? He'd be convenient to get off the list.

[Thor665]

oops.

anyway thor's being cheeky cult, so we can go back to ignoring him.

Actually I'm being bewildered Thor, not cheeky Thor. Let me break this down for you;

1. The 'negative' of me not unvoting you is that...cult and/or scum will arrange sme sort of speed lynch of you. Since that will take, what, 4 votes or something? The danger here is that we learn 4 scum/cult identities? Yeah, sure.
2. I have never understood the pro town maneuver of unvote right away and not have a new place to put a vote. My vote on you is just as pro-town/productive as your current vote on no one. If I was voting no one would it make me more townie than voting you? Get over your bad self.

Please explain why you're so upset by my vote on you.

[Thor665]

You're the cult leader...I thought we weren't supposed to say in thread?

Also - you just proved my point without explaining your issue with it so...whassup?

2nd question - do you agree with Ben that Nexus should come out of the consideration list? You joked about it and mocked my question but didn't weigh in on the conclusion.

[Thor665]

(I think leaving your vote on OBVtown is bad play, it's better to be unvoting, that's not really my problem, your cult for other reasons)

That's at least a logical position - so good job realizing you were barking around for nothing and had no backing to it.

What do you think about my Cyber/Espeo thoughts? Considering his new leap I still feel that way, and I might have gone for Espeo after the you/Benny thing but everyone is talking about how obv. CL Cyber is which would defeat the whole purpose.

[Thor665]

I don't really do lists of relative scumminess, but here's my reads on everyone in rough alignment bubbles. There's at least one scum in my town reads (there always is).

town = town
scum = Mafia
Cult = Cult

Bogre - town read on Locke, but consider him thus far a bit pants on head at the moment, meh - considering him strong cult suspect because I'm town.
Thor665 - bearded.
vezokpiraka - I don't think I really understand the 'obv. scum' thing that happened to him - but I consider him relatively bleh thus far this game and he doesn't feel earnest to me, so I'm not pulling my usual VI defense here.
CyberSet - I actually have had him as decently town because he saw the Benmage thing and was on Espeo.
Lost Butterfly - town read.
Empking - town read just for the stuff today, at the very least not scum.
Magua - town read.
Nexus - null to scum, mostly for lurking enough that I don't feel I have a grasp of him.
LynchMePls - Same as Nexus pretty much, though he feels like he's trying harder. Eh, null to townish.
SpyreX - town read.
Hinduragi - Cult read, no scum read.
Benmage - for the first time this game - town. If he's anything he's cult, but I'm strongly leaning town now.
Espeonage - some form of scum/cult.
AlmasterGM - I'm starting to consider him difficult to get a clear read on due to other games I've been in with him - due to the numbers game I'll stick him on the null side of town with LMP. Possible lynch, but not a lynch I'd be excited about.

[Thor665]

@Espe - your read on Cyberset please? There seem to be battle lines being drawn and I can't recall your opinion on him. Did I just miss it?

[Thor665]

Thor's list is comical... too many town.

I already noted that...I could start calling you scum again if it'd make you happy.

[Thor665]

@Benmage wagon - how many of you, yesterday (Day 3), had a town read on Benmage?

[Thor665]

Zest.

[Thor665]

Unvote LB
Vote: Espeonage

I still want Espe's read of Cyberset though.
Plus, we need a tiw with the Benwagon, since he's obv. scum and I want to push this counterwagon through

[Thor665]

Amazing how willing people suddenly are to get on this wagon today with only the lightest of pushes to get the ball rolling. Gratifying, but amazing.

Welcome to Benmage today too. People are all insane...or cult

[Thor665]

@Empking - flat out, what alignment do you think Benmage is and why should we lynch him today? (feel free to leave out 'lying' as a reason, he admitted to the lying so we all know that happened)

[Thor665]

Bogre/Locke was cleared as not cult by Hascow on Night 2 - so he might be a recruit but he can't be CR.

[Thor665]

If you want to hit a recruit Thor is cult 100% remember.
[snip]
I'd say shoot vezo. Fyi this could totally be a scum PR.

I support the Hindu lynch with a Vezo or Nexus shot.

Unvote: Espeonage
Vote: Hinduragi

[Thor665]

If you want to hit a recruit Thor is cult 100% remember.
[snip]
I'd say shoot vezo. Fyi this could totally be a scum PR.

I support the Hindu lynch with a Vezo or Nexus shot.

Unvote: Espeonage
Vote: Hinduragi

THOR is a cult recruit for wanting vezok aka mafia shot.

So you're saying Benmage is cult and needs to be shot - yeah?

[Thor665]

Wow, I have to remember to lurk more often - I give up in frustration on this game and it's 3+ pages a day while I get distracted by another game's lylo (we won, huzzah me!) and not only do I not get shot but now everyone is running up the lynch I support while still mumbling about how Thor is obv. recruit?

What is this?

@Hindi voters - who amongst you thinks Thor is obv. recruit? Because I'm kinda voting Hindi and have probably been doing it longer than you.

[Thor665]

So...just ignore it.

Also, if I make so much sense as a recruit - why wouldn't cult react to the super obvious conclusion that everyone would be able to make? I'm not a cult recruit, and cult knows that, and thus reactions around me are applicable.

[Thor665]

If you're going to do something, do it right.

But the case on me is based on WIFOM too.

Why is Thor cult? Because he wasn't cult when Hascow checked him and neither was Bogre/Locke, but Thor would hve been recruited because...that's who would have been recruited!

If it's so obvious as to damn me it should have been so obvious that Cult would be aware of it too - derpy doo. Also, if I'm so obviously cult people are being kind of silly to still call me cult while hunting for the CR as the same person I'm hunting unless they think I'm bussing the CR or think I'm not cult - I'm fine with them clarifying their thought process either way - but they do need to clarify.

[Thor665]

@Hindu - then vote someone as CR and I'll sheep you win/win.

[Thor665]

So, if you flip cult recruiter I'm super awesome town, right?

[Thor665]

...Wait a Smurfing second. Are you saying Im "LOLOL CULT" JUST BECAUSE I don't have a BACKUP CR suspect? Are you Smurfing kidding me?

Actually I'm saying you're cult because you seem to be more worried about explaining why you're not cult while pairing that with lurking on the vote side until you see something pick up some speed.
Also, I'm Smurfing kidding you.

[Thor665]

@Benmage/AGM - why is any scum preferable to cult scum? Isn't the doom and gloom prediction 4 cult which will be 5 tomorrow putting us in cult lylo regardless of if we lynch scum or town today? Meanwhile scum need, what, another 5-6 dead? That's 3 or so more phases. What am I missing?

[Thor665]

@Benmage - Sweet jeebus, and if you think any scum is good, but will probably agree cult scum is moderately better, why are you not all over me?

[Thor665]

Aren't cult recruiting Night 2 and likely starting with 2.

So that 2 to start - Night 2 +1, Night 3 +1 = 4

Again, what am I missing?

[Thor665]

THOR

I am a man constrained by logic.

Convince me you aren't a recruit by providing a more viable option.

What, a more viable cult recruit for last night?
Bogre is theoretically better than me simply because "everyone knows" Thor would be the best recruit.
Done.

Only, lik SpyreX believes scum started with 2, Thor.

Good cult recruit play, there.

I believe it too - otherwise cult game is over on Day 1-2 or Night 1? Add in unrecruitable scum, and unrecruitable town PRs and a Vig rigged to go off today, and Cult cop? Meh.
Start with two, probably either can become recruiter as of Night 2 - done and done.
So you're saying Cult definitely started with only a single recruiter?

[Thor665]

Unvote: Hindu
Vote: AGM

I don't even care anymore, let's get some blood on the floor and see what happens.

[Thor665]

Lol

Unvote: AGM
Vote: CES

Now you're wrong too, lol, lol, lol.

[Thor665]

I dunno, where's your productive anything?

Unvote: CES
Vote: Vezo

Huzzah.

[Thor665]

Riiiight, you could have had just as much direction and vote pull if you'd voted AGM - or are you calling him town?

[Thor665]

Is there anyone else who'd like me to ruin their wagon by voting for it?
All while no one bothers to vote me for being 'obv. obv. obv. cult?'

I'm learning to hate this game and hate cults.

[Thor665]

You think Vezok is town?

[Thor665]

@Espeo - on the theory there are barely any cult - why do you think it will be so easy for scum to kill cult? I think as proven today, most of us are talking out of our kiesters on most of these reads.

[Thor665]

It's Vezo scum - theorymafia says all we have to do is wait for Vezo to log on again.
Other people remain silent - lulz.

[Thor665]

Vote: Nexus

Needs to be in discussion.

Also, nyah to LB, I was on cult and scum yesterday. My beard is sexy and you will be overpowered by its awesomeness sooner or later.

[Thor665]

A truly awesome beard would've lead us to the CR. Vezoklynch was stupid.

It was unoptimal, it wasn't stupid.
You were on AGM, right? That was just as stupid if ultimate goal was CR.

[Thor665]

So...you don't want Benmage lynched today...gawd in heaven.

[Thor665]

Not Crone.

[Thor665]

@CES - so you're saying Emp isn't a Watcher?

What was his CR strategy regarding Benmage's fake guilty the other day then?

[Thor665]

I bring him up...though I am obvious cult who tried to lynch cult and scum yesterday, so...

[Thor665]

If Spy is the CL why isn't he on your lynch list? Who are those people on that lynch list if not CL...random scum/cult?

[Thor665]

You called for AGM? I remember you saying he wasn't cult because I was voting him.

[Thor665]

My implication (subtle though it isn't) is he's trying to glom onto more credit than is his due on that call.

[Thor665]

As a Vig he's not scum unless town is a lot more powerful than has become apparent.
As part of a fairly clear anti-cult tech in the game I tend to suspect he's not recruitable. He's certainly not the CR, which is I think Faraday's main point.

[Thor665]

I am married to Magua's brain right now. Which really means we should never hydra because we'd just drool and nod and play lik ethere was only one of us.

Hindu and BM wagons suxx0r.

I'd like to see a few more Nexus votes - unless someone can explain to me why he's obv. town. Anyone?

[Thor665]

I'm okay with the CES wagon too - that should be the counter wagon, fer sure.

[Thor665]

Thinking about it some more, if you believe Hind's claim that he was unfamiliar with benmage's meta, then it's not odd at all that he'd hammer there as CR. Really the most obvious scenario in his mind where benmage is lying would've been benmage as a recruit which Hind would know not to be the case.

So your accusation is that Hindu is a CR and Benmage is town/scum?

Sounds like you've narrowed your CR hunt list a bit more - who's left on it?

[Thor665]

Wait - I'm mixing up CR as recruit and recruiter in that last post. So you're saying Hindu is the recruiter and decided to hammer because he figured...what, Ben was town and Cow was legit? Or that Ben was lying scum and Cow was legit? or Cow was scum and Ben was legit. Because only the last one makes sense for a recruiter to my mind.

[Thor665]

Why is Nexus off it?