Newbie 1117(Town Wins)

[SomeRandomGuy]

/confirm

[SomeRandomGuy]

Does this game start on 7 of 9 confirms or when all have confirmed?

If it was 7 of 9:

VOTE: Bbmolla

[SomeRandomGuy]

I've just been reading around on the forum / start of other games and people seem to start throwing votes around after a few confirms, if it doesn't count i'll put it back after the next mod post since according to my chart of planet alignment and star brightness in the night sky here in England it's obvious that Bbmolla is scum.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Since everyone has confirmed, I don't think mod would mind if we started RVS. So, vote away.

You've played a few games, what do you prefer to play as, town or scum?

also to help me determining your alignment since the star chart isn't so clear on you:
You have no family, only your grandma, she buys a lottery ticket and wins big - she says she'll give her favourite and only grandson plenty of treats, you know you're in her will to take everything, do you accept her lovely treats or band with a few friends to pull off the perfect murder, popping a cap in her face so that you can receive all of the money?

[SomeRandomGuy]

To answer my own questions:

1) I think i prefer to play town, i've played a few games off site and whilst i've enjoyed playing scum and find i'm not too terrible at it, i prefer scum hunting to hunting possible power roles within the town, it also gives me more to work out as time goes on from people's posting, i find scum to be a bit of shooting fish in a barrel.

2) I'd take the treats but probably manipulate my grandma into giving me more than she likely would have normally.

The questions open discussion, I don't like RVS all that much and feel some random questions thrown around can help out, especially starting discussion since without it, we're going no where fast, at least until after Night 1 and i'd rather not be assesing who scum killed as our first line of investigation.

Toasty, your answer to question 1 is interesting, you prefer to stick to playing town due to more experience - you like to play it safe, i wonder how that'll be reflected in your gameplay. I've a few ideas how it might and am interested to see how it plays out

[SomeRandomGuy]

I think it ends once we have some leads Red.

[SomeRandomGuy]

If you would manipulate grandma, would u also try to manipulate other players ?

Absolutely, although i've no need to in this game due to my alignment. i wont state 'i am town' though since such is a redundant statement that everyone here will make for obvious reasons.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Exactly. RVS and RQS GIVE something to discuss, which is why its a relatively common start (at least on this site).

Answered the questions despite not liking them: bbmolla +townpoints

Answering questions with the reason 'so i don't appear to be scum' Bbmolla: + scumpoints

[SomeRandomGuy]

Also, sorry to double post but I can't find edit button...

You can't edit, it's to stop people removing any slips they may have made in their previous posts. Making double posts is fine just begin it with 'EBOW' (edit by way of post) if you wish.

Oh
VOTE: Bbmolla

[SomeRandomGuy]

Gah, just posted a rather long response and the forum errored out on me, fantastic! .

General jist:

Not liking the questions is fine, they're obscure, they don't in themselves give out much information and the second question which is essentially: would you take what your offered or form a mafia sized group to kill your gran was a joke. I was more interested in seeing the reaction to them being asked than the answers, at least in some way. The first question is meant to cover the usual 'How many games have you played / have you played before' for the people who don't have it in their sigs. Feeling the questions give no information and disliking them? Fine.

The quote you've given from BBmolla is something I had noticed and was going to bring up - It's a scummy statement to make. I don't know right now, nor did i when i started my focus on BBmolla whether or not he is scum, he could well be town and if he flipped town later in the game someone reading back on this may feel my case on him was scummy simply because he's town but i'm not scared to push the ideas because of my alignment, I'm certainly not going to rush into getting him lynched until there's a decent case - or at least one that's better than anything on anyone else.

I'm pretty sure someone would answer them the same regardless of role. A townie is not going to respond in a way that makes them look scummy and neither will a mafioso.

Who do you think is going to be more scared of appearing scummy BBmolla? We need to find a slip up somewhere, how do you suggest we do that, if not for random questions, random votes and discussion? So far what i have on you is the following: You've answered something to not appear scummy and you're not willing to push someone.

You say you don't want to see a random Lynch (as all town don't and even scum to an extent) but at the start of the game there is little information, this IS discussion, now where from here? Any questions for anybody? Anything you'd like someone to clarify? you need to look with the rest of us or we'll run out of leads.

Don't worry, you're no where close to being hammered right now. The problem with a no-lynch is that if we do that, the scum get a free night kill, when we should be using this day to create something.

If we lynch a scum member, we can look at who they buddied with / went against for more information
If we lynch a townsperson we can look at who pushed for that, who seemed to go with it but without adding to it / looking else where and generally who didn't seem to naturally believe the case.

We lose neither way vs a no lynch in my mind, since we get information. If we didn't have that, the scum could just kill off the least interactive player and we'd have no leads going into day 2, basically being in the same situation as now with slightly better odds.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Anyhow, i really don't want to get too tunneled on this right now, still waiting for some players to jump in so:

VOTE: Quackerz

[SomeRandomGuy]

Anyhow, i really don't want to get too tunneled on this right now, still waiting for some players to jump in so:

VOTE: Quackerz

VOTE: SomeRandomGuy

How is it pro-town to return to a random vote when you already have legitimate suspicions?

Because my case is well and truly made, i have no where else to go with it right now until he responds, what i don't want to do is narrow the game to a single line of investigation. As it stands i will be putting my vote back onto BBmolla as i believe his thoughts and responses have been nothing but scummy. I'm hoping seeing a vote on himself Quackerz will join in. I want more than one lead to go with in this day phase.

[SomeRandomGuy]

BBmolla is already feeling the pressure, he already mentioned about 'not hammering' despite being no where close, I'm not just going to drop the argument against him since my vote has changed for the time being and actually hoped that removing my vote for now might actually make BBmolla feel a little less under scrutiny and post more, hopefully without thinking too much. It would allow for more chances of slip ups and similarly chance for him to get rid of some of the suspicion.

It's not like removing my vote here can even take away the fact that i built this case, pushed for it (and will continue doing so) I wasn't exactly subtle as i built it and reading back would show exactly who started this, namely me if he's lynched and flips town, even if he ended up lynched and i hadn't put my vote back on him, i couldn't claim innocence and it's not like i've switched position on him either.

I realise it can seem scummy, but at this point in time, i want more leads, BBMolla will give us more information as time goes on anyway, with or without pressure, i just feel that if others are not pressured too, we may find ourselves stuck afterwards.

[SomeRandomGuy]

I've been getting issues tonight also, yeah it seems every couple of hours.

Yes, BBMolla is my primary and in fact currently single suspect - I actually wanted to see how he reacted once the pressure eased up a little as he's had it on him (in his eyes) from the very start of the game since he was my RVS target. I want to gauge his reaction to a little bit of breathing room and see if anything can come from that.

I realise why the votes have turned to me, in retrospec perhaps moving my vote was not the best idea but i maintain my motives for doing so, which were completely town. I've not tried to distance myself from my case on MBBolla in any way.

What I don't want to happen here is the people who have so far not posted to come in, agree with the BBmolla case, put their vote there and just coast through the day, so aswell as wanting to BBMolla's play with a little less pressure i want to see them coming in with some on them too. RVS / RQS ended VERY quickly in this game, not everybody 'got a go' and i believe we have something solid on BBMolla right now but i do not want to see the things i just mentioned happening and I do not want a complete tunnel.

If you don't like that i moved my vote I can understand that, I'm certainly not going to go with a OMGUS reaction but you should at least consider my reasonings (if i am town) are completely viable.

[SomeRandomGuy]

*considers reasoning*

Well, I'm still keeping my vote on you. My reason is that you have a valid case against your only suspect,

yet you refuse to follow up with it, and instead try to shift focus on someone for a worse reason.

We have weeks until deadline. We can spend time pressuring BBmolla and still have time to have discussion about other things.

You're not as scummy as I thought you were, Random, because you have confidence in what you have done, and you don't take back what you did. You felt it was the right decision, and if you feel you have nothing to hide...I don't know, it's in my gut you're not that scummy.

But I still feel you're the most anti-town here

.

firstly, let me just echo again that I understand your vote on me and that i'm happy it's likely there for the right reasons.

onto the bolded points:

1) I don't refuse to follow up with it and whereas i can see why you might think that is the case let me assure you it isn't. My vote on Quackerz followed a large post about my suspicions on BBmolla I had made my suspicions clear, laid them out and hadn't back tracked on that at all. I think i've also pretty well laid out my reasoning for the switch of the vote, not only to give BBMolla some breathing space which i think may encourage better responses from him than if he's under continued pressure at this point (I don't know his playstyle, I'd like to see as much of it as i can) but also to encourage others into the game in a way that hopefully they wont just /agree with the case already presented and hide in a wagon.

2) I can even see your argument for this point, I don't subscribe to that idea but i do subscribe to the fact that if i get myself lynched in this D1 it's completely VI play that led to it.

What I would say however is that your post is almost exactly what i am being accused of (non-commitance) you've left yourself plenty of room here that if I am left swinging from the gallows you can say 'Hey, i said my gut didn't think he was scummy but i think he played anti-town'. Don't get me wrong here, i'm not calling you out as scummy or even suggesting that you are but it does leave that room. You're also choosing to leave your vote on someone you don't feel is 'that scummy' due to what you believe to be an anti-town play over someone you had voted and believe a case was good on - In essence you're doing exactly what I did, albeit you have a reason to place your vote on me.

Also, I personally do not FoS Random at this point in time, I think his arguement is pretty logical tbh. Seeing how people react under pressure is a good idea because I know for a fact people will react differently, whether intentionally or not, when they're scum under pressure and town under pressure

It works both ways and BBmolla is actually making a point i've tried to make - people do react differently under pressure, that's not to say that knowing how they act when not under pressure isn't important, i believe it is.

I'm not going to sheep and say that something is a great idea if I have issues with it.

I wouldn't ask you to, what I would ask is that you're open to pushing something you see as scummy, that if you do see a case, you're willing to lead it to the lynch - I'd certainly be willing to do so with yourself.

What are your current reads BBMolla? Who strikes you as scummy and why? I see you didn't FoS me and find my argument to be logical, what then are your thoughts on my case about you? Is that logical enough that you don't find my pushing of it to be scummy? Are there any responses to any points raised you'd like to bring up?

[SomeRandomGuy]

I don't even know how to respond to that BB.

There are 100% 2 mafia in the game - 1 rolecop and 1 goon.

The idea that they haven't even posted yet it possible, they could be laughing at us all right now but we go on what we have. The thing is, by creating cases we get reactions, we start to see interactions between scum and other players and scum member 1 and scum member 2 - meaningless interactions now may mean a lot later in the game.

[SomeRandomGuy]

1) I think the issue here is that I can't prove to you i would have continued my case on BB - i wouldn't have just dropped it like it never happened, i was just hoping that if we moved away from the topic a wee bit, that interactions between him and other people would be good to see, not necessarily from the point of view of him defending himself but from the view of him in active discussion about other things.

2) It would be my VI play - it's quite obvious that my changing vote was not the best course of action, no matter how much i stand by my reasons, the effects it has had were not what was desired. That said, I don't see what possible gain my changing of vote (in the way i did it) would help me as scum, as i've already said, my case was blatently laid out for all to see i couldn't hide from that after the fact.

Your answers to my prodding of you are more than satisfactory for me at this point Bo.

I'm not sure whether BB's lack of FoS / OMGUS reaction on me is something i should trust him more for, or less. but i do dislike the 'youre jumping on this too fast' line. If anything that's exactly what i've got myself suspected for, not wanting to tunnel.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Random for making a pretty solid case, then dropping it. .

Again, i can't stress enough that i didn't just drop it and yes the case was pretty solid for day 1, then again you look around a bit and you'll find another equally as good for day 1 anywhere.

Anyway it was a silly idea moving my vote, i just hope that through continuing to actively scum hunt people will see i only have town motives here.

Haze: Using simply a gut feeling from their posts, how do you feel about the other players we've seen post, do you trust them? Is there anything you see which strikes you as odd? do you have questions for anybody?

[SomeRandomGuy]

I confirmed, so can you please mark me off the list.

Also,

Vote: BBmolla

Any thoughts to go along with this?

[SomeRandomGuy]

I believe he's at least 2 votes away from lynch, even with your vote, unless i've miscounted? That would mean both mafia would have to jump on (assuming there's no mafia vote on him currently) it would be a silly move, hammering a lynch this early into the day would raise massive suspicion, they'd get themselves killed.

I don't think it's fair to automatically put a big FoS on BBmolla just if he doesn't get hammered (which isn't going to happen anyway i expect).

[SomeRandomGuy]

I believe he's at least 2 votes away from lynch, even with your vote, unless i've miscounted?

You miscounted. Kad is the only one with a vote on BBmolla currently.

Kad, could you please give a better case than that on BBmolla? Quite frankly, I don't understand any of your logic at this point, considering BBmolla is nowhere close to a lynch.

Fair enough, i hadn't actually counted through the game, just tried to do it off of memory of who voted and changed votes.

Thing is logically speaking 'If he's not hammered - he must be scum or a big suspect' is a stitch up.

By the way guys, i'll be around for a couple more hours but will then be

V/LA

over the weekend, i'll still be posting a fair amount no doubt but at random times.

[SomeRandomGuy]

I'd say Red that RVS and RQS is over - It has been for a while and my vote on Quackerz shouldn't be seen as an indication it's still RVS.

I dont get this, if you part of the town here. Why would you ask this question ?
just to get reactions , well with your answer wouldnt people find you more of a bad guy here.
You did mention earlier that you would maniuplate other players.

I asked the questions to start some form of discussion, despite the feeling it might not help do that, it did and infact I believe because the questions were odd, it helped more so than usual - it brought up the question 'Why would these help? I don't see the point!' and in BBmolla's case gave a reaction that could be investigated - his reaction to the question, not his answer set me on the path i went down. Discussion is pro-town.

Anyone who says that they wouldn't manipulate other players is a flat out liar, infact someone is likely already trying, it's a scum tactic and i don't need to do it in this game, that's not to say i've never saw town manipulate people to go for what they believe to be scummy players, but that's not exactly a pro-town way to play.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Toasty, your post is interesting and certainly i believe that red may fit the profile for scum, giving arguments on both sides, commiting to neither and going with what he is handed. I'm not fully over my suspicion on BBmolla but i'm willing to believe that the vote from Red on him as opposed to me, is a decision red had to make, i know my alignment so i know that red was right not to vote me, but what i don't like is that he posted a vote on BBmolla whilst obviously not convinced that he is scum. I'm also a wee bit drunk, so i'll come back to this tomorrow and give the thread and red's responses a good read over.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Right, taking a look at your case on red has left me feeling that it makes quite some sense, Toasty.

Over confidence isn't a scum tell and infact I find it often to be town who will go with that play scum tend to be fairly non commital, which in a sense is what got me into peoples suspicions, my confidence in my reasoning seems to have been what got me out, which is something even redcobalt seems to hint at himself when voting for BBmolla

Random, started scummy, but he has over the posts, kinda like showed me that he is to clean to be scum, he is willing to open up and explain his ideas without holding anything back. I still kinda think your "null"

You described it here as being open red and i want to make it clear that i'm not trying to twist your words, but in essence it was my confidence which spurred my openess yet such confidence in BBmolla seems to be an issue for you?

In all fairness i did say i would manipulate other players (just like i would my grandma) but i also stated that in this game i have no reason to and thus wont be - which could have at least been mentioned if you were being thorough red.

Come on in and answer toasty's case he's got some valid points which call for an answer.

FOS: Redcolbalt

[SomeRandomGuy]

Sorry about my entrance, my first game and just jumped in.
I agree with Toasty on red but im still suspicious on BB.
Still going to hold from voting now.

That's alright, we all have to start somewhere, hell I think most of us are still pretty new anyway

Have you got any thoughts on the two suspects you've named? Which bits of the cases laid out do you tend to think make them most suspicious, who if anyone do you find trustworthy right now? Have you seen anything which could seem 'scummy' that hasn't been mentioned by anyone else?

[SomeRandomGuy]

Just to let you guys know, i think i've managed to fry the graphics card on my pc and for some reason i can't get the onboard graphics to work right now... it means i wont post quite so much as i'll have to post from my bf's macbook when he's not using it. chances are you guys wont have even noticed anything from this, but just making you aware incase my posts do become slightly less frequent.

To whomever ends up replacing Bo:
?
Welcome to the game, once you've had time to catch up what are your current thoughts of the game? Do you agree with cases Bo seemed to like or do your opinions differ much from his?

[SomeRandomGuy]

. As a VT I can't see what BB has to fear about looking scummy is; unless you think that either your powers of deduction or your role is valueble to the townies, I don't personally see any real problem with dying; it's part of the game and allows others to move on and pick up deductions from there. Only two situations I see here are that BB's a power role or you're scummy.

Is this you claiming VT or alluding to BB as being VT? (I missed if he claimed it), either way a VT claim is anti-town and can actually be game breaking, i've looked over a game where such early VT claims actually irreperably damaged the towns standing. VT's should not claim it, infact they should make themselves targets in some way, whilst not being so obvious that they've no PR to hide.
Also, I don't like that you've put out the idea BB is either scum or a PR - as town we should not be speculating on the Power Roles particularly and if we do it should only be with the aim of protecting them in some fashion. We certainly at this stage should not be speculating about them in the thread, we don't want the scum to have any leads... they already know which of us are town, the less information or leads we give them on PR's the better - it's more like a random attack to find them if we do our job at this stage, which unless giving out false reads to them (hoping they'll target someone who is only VT is good).

As town our job is as follows (regardless of role and in this game)
1) Discuss as much as possible to make accurate lynches
2) Try to bring the scums attempted kills against VT's or someone who is likely to be protected.

Anyway, no VT claims or insinuation please and certainly no 'hes sum or PR - the scum know in that case! and if you think that way and you are town, with their extra information...they can be a little more certain!)

What i do agree on though is the following points:
Some people need to post more, a lot of toastys post (up until his post against red) were white noise, whilst containing plenty of theory, it didn't contain much in the way of cases but i think his post on red addresses that issue nicely.

[SomeRandomGuy]

I did respond properly to this but i'm using the macbook and hit some button which made the page go back... damn i hate these keyboards anyway basic points i made (since i've little time to respond now)

It was a rhetorical question, i followed up straight away with the advice, any attempt from Haze to continue along that lines or clarify himself or BB as VT would be incredibly scummy so no, he shouldn't answer the question.
And to your point toasty:
I'm not specifically trying to teach Haze, my information is simply because i don't want ANY VT claims at this point his points made me bring it up, if you're even inferring that i'm attempting to teach him for anything other than town reasoning, you should also note he's not the only one i've quoted theory to as a reason of stopping mistakes that hurt town.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Really feel like i've abused this game in the past couple of days, i really need to have a good read through and look for new information - I've just had very little time and am in another mafia game on another site where it all got crazy and took up a fair amount of the free time i did have. I'll get that done either tonight, or tomorrow.

When i saw redcobalts misquoted post i thought 'heh, i bet it turns out that it counts as him voting himself' major lols.

Nice to see muffin come in quite energized - put a little life back in here - So, you mention toasty as scum, is that down to the lack of actual scum hunting, or just a general feeling? and what makes you feel bv is town? For me, i find him hard to read and am getting little from him.

[SomeRandomGuy]

I asked him if he thought bb and srg were scum together. This idea was largely rhetorical, because I don't believe/see that at all. As such, the other option is that one is scum and the other isn't. This leads to chaining lynches, which is VERY scummy.

Why couldn't they be a scumteam? SRG has voiced suspicions of BB, but his vote is still on Quackerz. Other than that point, I have a town read on SRG; however, if BB flips scum, I'll be looking carefully at their interactions.

I have to say on this point that it would be quite a nice gambit to make coming straight out of the gate and scum on scum argument going hard at each other, by the end of the day it would quite easily be forgotten especially with 3 week long days (i'm used to 1 or 2 week games where such would be just a little harder.) Personally, i'd expect that if either me or BB were to flip scum that the other one would be looked at and equally if either of us flipped town. I can only say though that if he were to die and flip either way it'd be pretty fruitless.

Toasty, I had noticed your soft questioning, getting some view points and such but pushing hard isn't something i've saw from you and up until now, i'm not sure bv has done much of it either. Muffin has come into the game and right off the bat is pressing people for answers, Bo left him with a pretty clean slate to do so though and so it's something to be a little wary of, but either way it has gotten the game flowing again and he seems as trustworthy as anyone in the game right now.

My suspicions on BB still exist, however the more I see from him the more his points do seem genuine. some stuff seems to be mistakes and / or lack of knowledge. My suspicion remains to an extent and i'm keeping my eye on him but right now, i don't feel the need to replace my vote on him at the moment.

sorry, internet connection is iffy and school in the mornings, havent been on a lot.

Anyways, agreeing on TT but who knows if what Quackerz could be.
Maybe lurking as mafia...

This doesn't sit well with me, you get chance to vote, pop in to say you agree on TT but have no idea on Quackerz (due to lack of posting) and even suggest he could be lurking as mafia - my response to this is: Pot - Kettle - Black... You've added very little thus far and whilst you may be having issues it seems that you've had chance to get in here and post and added nothing of substance AND point to the only one person less active than you - the last thing you should be pushing right now is 'the lurker may be mafia!'. Next time you get chance to come in, take a look at things properly and give reasons, please

Being the only one i've had any true suspicion of BB is still the one in my mind who seems scummiest but as i say, he has managed to be less of a suspect than previously, I'm going to have a look through properly tomorrow (i know i promised today but haven't had much chance). I'm going to reread the whole game and see where that leaves me.

[SomeRandomGuy]

You may have noticed a significant downturn in posts from me, mainly because I'm busy working.

My reads are completely opposite of everyones which is a bit frightening. For now, I'll

Unvote:RedCobalt

Because I can't specifically state why in the first place.

I'm following the game, I just don't have much to contribute as my scum reads are absolutely whack.

I state that im finding you a little more trustworthy and you go and post this - just because other people don't agree with your reads doesn't mean they're 'whack' - if you can put reasons to them and explain them it's not scummy. My read on you also seems to not be the general consensus but it's valid.

Admitting you can't specifically state why you voted RedCobalt is a little suspect.

[SomeRandomGuy]

My original suspicions on BBmolla are confirmed with this post:

You may have noticed a significant downturn in posts from me, mainly because I'm busy working.

My reads are completely opposite of everyones which is a bit frightening. For now, I'll

Unvote:RedCobalt

Because I can't specifically state why in the first place.

I'm following the game, I just don't have much to contribute as my scum reads are absolutely whack.

No one else has too much scummy activity so

Vote: BBmolla

(btw, new internet connection )

Please see post #152 and respond.

[SomeRandomGuy]

You may have noticed a significant downturn in posts from me, mainly because I'm busy working.

My reads are completely opposite of everyones which is a bit frightening. For now, I'll

Unvote:RedCobalt

Because I can't specifically state why in the first place.

I'm following the game, I just don't have much to contribute as my scum reads are absolutely whack.

I state that im finding you a little more trustworthy and you go and post this - just because other people don't agree with your reads doesn't mean they're 'whack' - if you can put reasons to them and explain them it's not scummy. My read on you also seems to not be the general consensus but it's valid.

Admitting you can't specifically state why you voted RedCobalt is a little suspect.

I think the funniest part is that I was going to add that I stopped posting because whenever I posted it seemed to hurt me more than harm me but I didn't because I thought I'd get call scummy for saying it.

I voted for RedCobalt because of Toast's reasonings seeming to make sense, even though I didn't analyze them completely.

It wouldn't have looked great, no. However I must say your 'slips' have been so frequent and despite my bringing you up on a lot of points you've continued your posting regardless of that. The reason that your saying 'I stopped posting to not keep having this happen' would have looked scummy is because more than anything else it is your continued presence regardless of suspicion and the rate in which you answer questions which makes you seem less and less guilty as time goes by for me.

Right now suspect wise for me:

Kad - It's the fact he said Quackerz might be scum lurking, yet despite the reasons he's given for lack of posting when he has managed to get online it's nothing of substance.

His posts summed up:

1. /confirm
2. Votes BB
3. trying to see if mafia will hammer. If they dont, very high FoS on BBmolla
4. Says he thought more people had votes on BB thus his last post
5. Unvotes
6. appologises for entrance to the game, it's his first game Agrees with toasty on red still suspects BB
7. Apologised for not being active then: 'Anyways, agreeing on TT but who knows if what Quackerz could be.
Maybe lurking as mafia...'
8. His suspicion on BB is confimed by BB's latest post.

Now, let me go into this:
So first off he votes BB, fair enough except there wasn't a reason, he claims it was to see if scum hammered him (despite being no where close to hammerable) and if not a big FoS on BB - Scum wouldn't hammer that anyway, too close to the start of the day, too suspicious. Anyway he says he thought more people were on the wagon, then he unvotes BB in his next post. He agrees with toasty's argument against Red but still suspects BB. then he comes in and 'agrees on TT' - Why? A second ago he was just following TT's case on red and mentioned quackerz as a possible lurky scum (pot - kettle - black). Now his suspicion is confirmed by BB's latest vote? Oh please, there was nothing more in that than any of his others.
Essentially, he seems to be agreeing with what ever case has the most backing at the time of his post, BB takes a background role as the suspicion switches and goes right back when myself and red(?) mention BB's latest post.

He's done absolutely no scum hunting, has given us nothing but the names of people he suspects except for one time, which was his thoughts on Quackerz AND the 'if scum don't hammer very big fos' is scummy as hell, suggesting somebody can be proven guilty simply based on the fact others didn't hammer? bleh.

Unvote
Vote: Kad

Btw, just realised i can view only one persons posts in the game at a time (the other place i play doesn't have this - quite handy i'll be going back and looking at just about everyone i think).

[SomeRandomGuy]

Nice case there Verydark, i know i've been pretty much on his case since the game began but that's nicely laid out all in one which is good.

BB - Your latest response is just mind boggling, how you thought 'k' and 'cool' as responses would help in any way is beyond me and this after i had just mentioned it was your willingness to respond (properly) that was your saving grace thus far, you completely went against that. Your comment about saying that every time you post you only make things worse for yourself whilst you didn't make it you mentioned it and again, it's the survival instinct that verydark mentioned and has been pointed out before.

I'm really not sure whether you're dumb town or scum :/

[SomeRandomGuy]

@SRG: I see where you're coming from; however, Kad looks town to me. His posts would definitely be scummy for someone with more experience, but I see them as newbie-tells. Also, the "trying to see if mafia will hammer" thing from ISO #2 doesn't seem like something he would fake as scum.

Well that one is certainly hard to wrap my head around with more thought given, i don't see the benefit of it as scum, it's more the unvote simply because he couldn't test it that i don't like. It's that and the Quackerz suspicion / lack of information when he votes that has me. Saying that, when i ask myself 'Do I find him scummy' as opposed to 'do the things he's doing seem scummy?' i draw a little bit of a blank, similarly with the way I'm thinking on BB now. It seems they're both handing out these constant tells, but despite being pulled up on it, continue to do so with almost no hesitation - the 'new to the game' argument really does cover some of it, but i'd hate to feel that it might be being exploited.

As for Toasty, the coasting to begin with caught my eye a little, the cases laid out are done so well and do make sense. Some of the points though are fairly well answered, such as the mention of a misrep from red, and the idea red was giving both sides of the argument. I need to read through again to get the full jist of the argument properly and will do sometime in the next 24 hours and give my thoughts on TT properly.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Well, it's early into the game, but we're about half way or more into the first day and so our reads should be starting to take form.

I'm not convinced Toasty is scum at this point, I understand the argument against him but I feel his responses make sense, Muffin you seem very focused on him and whilst he did offer a lot of nothing toward the start of the game in terms of scum hunting (and to be honest his questioning was very soft) it's not necessarily the scummiest plays we've seen from people in this game. It's not much different from the way some others have acted, in terms of not scum hunting. I still need to get a good re-read in (hectic weekend here too) but as soon as i do i'll have true reads to present.

One thing i find a little odd in his play however is that he obviously seems to believe i'm town, yet had hinted that if bv was scum perhaps i am, he mentioned my lack of mentioning bv in the early going, that was nothing i chose to do, i just didn't cross paths with him, yet at the same time we have toasty buddying up ever so slightly with me. I'm feeling that through seeds planted (whether purposely or not) if either bv or Toasty flip scum, i'm going to be quite the suspect. Now, this could just be me reading too far into this, however when i know my alignment i become suspicious of interactions with me, and a lot of the case on toasty is to do with votes on me or not put on me etc.

I know I'm at L-2, but could I just give my defense now? Even if I don't get lynched now, all the "scumtells" and such I put off which has caused a ton of FoS directed towards me is just going to cause issues later in more dire circumstances.

I have to agree with muffin here, I'd like to see something pro-town from you, as opposed to a defence on yourself at this point, we could all sit here defending ourselves all day but it'll get us no where unless we were to slip, and with the 'scum tells' you've been giving off, a slip from you isn't exactly going to cause much more suspicion than you already have.

[SomeRandomGuy]

I think BB is the best lynch for today, as many people already have other suspicions. I also think BB should claim because then we could match claims, but with F9 format, anything is possible

It's like you don't even read the other posts and certainly not anything which is about you...

[SomeRandomGuy]

[toast's play is] not much different from the way some others have acted, in terms of not scum hunting.

Actually, it is different. While others may not have been scum hunting, they weren't filling in with their lack of scum hunting with IIoA posts. The problem with this is that those posts are designed to look like he's posting content when he really isn't. This is totally different from other players, who are just not posting content altogether. The ones not posting content are still suspicious, just not as suspicious.

You have a point on that as it goes, the reason i don't necessarily see it as scummy is because during my first game (off-site) or at least one of my firsts, the person who brought mafia to that site was playing and tended to offer alot of IIoA, in essence he was teaching us to play, then again i think we as a group probably had less experience on whole than the players in this game, he got lynched for it, infact he seems to often get himself in trouble for it but i don't think i've seen him flip scum yet.

that being said, that's there, this is here and i realise it can be a tell and certainly i feel i've offered some informative posts, whilst activly scum hunting in the early part of the game, something i feel Toasty could have done more of also.

The issue for me is that there were some soft questioning from his direction, the lack of pushing though is what i found to be suspect. He seemed to soft question a fair few people but stuck to none specifically.

...Honestly haven't the faintest clue what you're talking about, but I'm assuming it's not something good and not something I did on purpose.

I'd probably go as far to say it's something you're likely best not knowing

[SomeRandomGuy]

srg might be flying under the radar right now, and were skipping iver a few people...

Great scum hunting! Is that the second or third time you've mentioned somebody in such a way at least last time Quackerz was actually lurking more than you were.

[SomeRandomGuy]

@kad,

Can you explain why you think BB is scummy?

I know you said srg

might

be flying under the radar, but do you actually think he's scum or are you just saying it's a possibility?

Does anyone else look suspicious to you? Why/why not?

good luck! :p He'll be back in a day or two to say something similar and miss your questions :p

[SomeRandomGuy]

I'm actually starting to believe that Kad is perhaps the best lynch for today and i'll explain my reasons once Toasty has responded to Bv as i don't want to give latchable opinions before his vote is explained

[SomeRandomGuy]

+town points for the Auron love there

Where I stand right now:

Kad - very much coasting through the game and responding to absolutely nothing except to throw in the odd bit of suspicion with no reasoning and a vote, it's not pro-town play no matter how you cut it.

What i am interested in also though is the speed the bus began rolling onto kad, there seemed to be little or no defence of him when this seems to be the closest to lynch we've taken someone and it's becoming an actual possibility but Bv did kind of stand by questioning as it happened.

We also have BB - is it me or are his posts begining to make sense more so than previously? He suddenly bumped his knowledge up about 10x.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Precisely.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Oh man, i used to get 98% on TTFAF (on easy) always managed to mess up on one of the hard parts with one or two notes at some point, the rest perfect - that sucked but Dragonforce is my favourite band, so i kept on trying

Between BB and Kad:

I think Kad has acted scummily, added little to the game and coasted, he doesn't respond to points for the most part and has tried very little to up his game, seems anti town to me for that. Killing him gives little to go on in terms of information though where as for information gain BB would be a stronger candidate for lynching. I feel one of the two is more likely a scum target (if town) than the other and i'm not sure how this should factor into our decision making here. (can anyone give insight on that?)

[SomeRandomGuy]

hm. That changes what I thought I saw a bit. I need to reassess some things, but I still think BB is more likely town than scum.

I'm assuming you read his 'should i give my defence now' to mean he had a role to reveal? I did the same actually but that in itself didn't do anything to change my opinion.

I don't know, everything about the latter part of his game seems to say 'Ive got some input' - The LYLO talk, the indication prior to L-1 that he had a role (if both of us read it that way, surely others did?) The LYLO defence appeals to our logic but lets face it, BB if town would probably eat the lynch anyway vs most people in this game.

What I don't like at this point is that we've 2 people at L-1 (is that usual? i've not seen it before) and as unlikely as Kad is to claim, 2 claims in one day (if both happened to be town which is FAR less than certain) is a wee bit harmful.

Toasty, why did you feel the need to bring Kad to L-1 also? I mean in the situation BB and Kad are hammering the other one wouldn't be such an awful move.

[SomeRandomGuy]

I WAS ALREADY ON HIM. MOD ERROR. If you're going to call someone out for that then ask Haze. My vote was immediately after kad was all like "lolvoteme"....read plz. Also, I don't think BB is scum at all, so there's no reason I can't bring the wagon of someone I have a scum-read on to L-1. also, BB is on kad, and kad is on BB. In other words, that move is impossible unless they're self-hammering

I really should have paid more attention to that - my bad!

[SomeRandomGuy]

I claim VT, but it wont make much difference.

If and when I get lynched, when you know I am a VT, I request that you lynch BBmolla.
Most likely to die, so there.

Killing somebody just because you turned out town and suggested it is unlikely to happen, if we feel the need to lynch BB in the next day phase we will.

You've given us nothing to work with, have made no real case on BB and I feel your response right here, does not help your case - if you were town, you should try harder to protect yourself, especially if you're L-1 with someone else you think is scum.

You've instead taken the stand that you'd rather try and tell us what to do when you're dead, as opposed to protecting yourself now, although with the way you posted that perhaps you are trying to create doubt in our minds.

Either way there's scope that you're both town - I don't subscribe to that idea but lets assume you both are - Which of you is going to be more beneficial to keep around, especially since you've both claimed vanilla? I'll leave you to answer that question for yourself since i don't think i need to tell you the answer.

If my vote wasn't already on you, i'd have just hammered.

[SomeRandomGuy]

I'm assuming you read his 'should i give my defence now' to mean he had a role to reveal? I did the same actually but that in itself didn't do anything to change my opinion.

Just going to address this. Originally I was extremely defensive, which was totally because of survival instincts. Then someone pointed out that my defensive stance was indicative of a PR, so I decided to play with that mentality. My thought process was that if I could soft claim hard enough, and I didn't get lynched, I could possibly fool the mafia into lynching me allowing our PR(s) to survive another day. I slipped in a few soft claims in some of my posts and I'm assuming some of you picked up on it.

Also, I'm already voting Kad, so I can not hammer on him.

Where did someone suggest it was indicative of a power role? I know it was said that less activity and keeping your head down is a tell of PR's but over defenciveness? I'd have thought that was a particularly bad thing, the fact they'd need to be so defencive this early on.

What i don't like in this statement is that you supposedly switched from over defenciveness to outright trying to get yourself killed at night, an honorable thing for a VT to do but it seems a little out of character, especially when you were soft claiming the PR when at L-2 using it as a defence then arrive at L-1 and completely bail on it, it's mentioned and then you reveal the whole 'plan'

You used the soft claim to try and survive
You dropped the soft claim at L-1 (a couple of your posts later) and claim VT
You're pulled up on it
You expose that you were trying to attract a night kill...

The most worrying thing here is that the mentioning of the soft claim was never directed at you specifically, you chose to defend yourself on it before it became an issue seemingly and then told us of this plan, which you could have kept in place

Shall i tell you what it looks like?

'Ok, soft claim.... oh shit, they're not stopping because of it.... riiight, well now i'm at L-1 i either need to claim a role that there's a good chance will be a duplicate and if that person is on the other wagon, they'll hammer.... or i need to claim VT and hope they go away.'

This leaves me in a situation where I'm really undecided on who between you and Kad should be lynched, I am hopeful that we'll choose the right one as between you i'd say one of you HAS to be scum at this point.

[SomeRandomGuy]

EBWOP - i had missed BB's post on this point somehow, thus my response to Kad first.

[SomeRandomGuy]

I truly and honestly believe I can contribute more to this town then kad; and I think a ML would be well spent on him

You don't think he's scum, do you?

[SomeRandomGuy]

That's a fair enough response, i suppose but in my opinion a mislynch is never 'well spent' - sure the information can lead to a true lynch but it's obviously better to get the true lynch first.

By the way, if you're scum and taking hints about gameplay, your intelligence boost coincides fairly well with Muffin entering the game and certainly your down turn in posts also.

[SomeRandomGuy]

I'd say this isn't two townies up for a lynch. It's really rare to get 2 players at L-1 D1 in a newbie and have them both me town. That said, if we lynch a townie today, I'm not going to automatically assume the other player is scum.

Well, of course not, how does it sit with you that Kad basically asked for that to happen?

[SomeRandomGuy]

I must say that having two people at L-1 with the decision on who to lynch down to one person (unless someone switched votes) makes me a little uneasy. We find ourselves literally in a situation where if Muffin is scum and one of the lynch candidates are that he could save them and take out a townie no questions asked.

I think it's fairly obvious that Kad is going to be the one eating the lynch and whilst i'm absolutely not against that just like i wouldn't be against a BB lynch it does make me wonder what you're waiting for, Muffin. There are good cases on both targets I couldn't blame you for hammering either of them. Your read on BB as being town has been pretty consistant but i'm not really sure as to why that's the case...

Kad has made less scummy sounding statements than BB - Obviously the fact he's barely posted is scummy in itself but this much is true.

On another note, BB is reading as town. Newbie-town, but still town. Although I would like to see him stop caring about himself and start focusing on finding scum. I personally don't care what "defense" he has to offer in his next post, I'd rather see him start hunting scum properly.

I don't think you've ever really stated what exactly makes you feel BB is town, except for one time where it was a null-tell (him lying by his own admission). Has he started focusing on finding scum since you posted this around 130 posts ago? He certainly in some ways hasn't stopped defending himself.

So reading kad in ISO, I don't like any of his posts, but I'm having a bit of trouble determining whether it's newb-scum or newb-town here.

What makes Kad newb scum or newb town but BB simply newb town at this point?

Also, I'm worried that I'm the only one who is noticing the obvious reason that BB is town. And it's a very, very obvious reason at that. Although possibly a gambit, it's much more likely to come from bb-town than bb-scum... Yet people aren't even commenting on it, let alone making references to it. Weird.

It's not really weird, your mentioning of it even subtly made me double check it again, i had thought it sounded like a claim but went past it, when you posted this, it was obvious you thought as much too.

The other thing about the role claim from BB is this: His first Role soft claim was post #204

I'd scumhunt, but I'm not at the point where I can recognize any tells. That's why I haven't been contributing anything.

I've got a response, but I can't say it without outing my role.

Also Kad, claiming and matching roles is pretty useless considering there's a percentage that a role doesn't even exist.

Post #212

This seems to me like you're already preparing to claim, You've at least demonstrated in this post that you're not a vanilla townie and that you have some sort of power role. I don't believe in rolefishing, but now I really want to see where this is going...dropping a subtle hint like this is scumtastic, because you're trying to, again, divert attention from your actions by essentially "changing the subject".

the relevance?

#217

Also, I'm worried that I'm the only one who is noticing the obvious reason that BB is town. And it's a very, very obvious reason at that. Although possibly a gambit, it's much more likely to come from bb-town than bb-scum...

Nope, you're not the only one noticing it at that point, very dark had already posted about it a few posts back aaaand...

@verydark,

Anything else you want to add to the game other than that BB is scum, scum, scum?

You're obviously responding to #212 in which Verydark mentions the soft claim in far less uncertain terms than you did, you must have seen what he said - you skipped over it though and why? He took a different stance on it than yourself, we know that much.

meh, kad's my preference over BB. I'll probably move to kad some time in the next day, pending any responses that make me change my mind about someone.

hm. That changes what I thought I saw a bit. I need to reassess some things, but I still think BB is more likely town than scum.

He has admitted to lying, his posts have been well laid out though BUT in my opinion he made it quite clear in his first soft claim that he didn't see the point in actually claiming the role it self with this:

Also Kad, claiming and matching roles is pretty useless considering there's a percentage that a role doesn't even exist.

He happens to make a fairly good, even perhaps slightly pro-town comment, i just still with his reasoning don't understand why he didn't go through with his plan of soft claiming a role - Then again, it was always as likely or more so that Kad would eat lynch.

Let me summarise:

I'm not sure why you think BB is town, it's not that i think BB is more likely scum than Kad it's that there's a lot more of a case against him, again it's unfair to judge only on those merits since it's kads inactivity which makes him useless to town even if he's telling the truth.
Also, you've said yourself that information wise if Kad is town we get much less, hell if he's scum we also get much less than with BB.

Also a few more things:

Here's something I'm pretty sure of.

Kad, whether town or mafia, will be unhelpful either way.

kad wrote:
ya, so vote me

If you insist.

Vote:Kad2361

BB's response to Kad's 'vote me' post - it really doesn't read like something that BB feels is any kind of valid defence.

It seems to me that he's a town member that doesn't care, which in the long run could be more detrimental to the town than a scum member hiding amongst the town.

However, he could possibly be scum trying to throw us off by asking to be lynched.

and this doesn't support that either...

[quote="muffin]uh, just quickly because I'm busy atm, but the reason I thought BBmolla was softclaiming a PR is because he said he had something to say but couldn't say it without outing his role, which to me suggests soft-claiming a PR. But when he actually claimed VT, he said something along the lines of "my defense was just going to be lynch me" or something to that effect, which made me look back and realise I probably did misinterpret the softclaiming. But I also think he's town independent of that.
[/quote]

An absolute misrep of the situation, I'm not saying it's intended or not but BB has now admitted that he purposely soft claimed and did it to draw a night kill, yet, he never seemed likely to actually give his 'role' away and put town reasoning as to why it wouldn't help right back in his very first (much more subtle) role hinting. I still don't understand why he didn't go for the role claim, we'd have lynched Kad most likely, if VT BB would probably be killed by the mafia thinking they had a soft claim to work with.

Anyway, it's late ... oh early 8.35am... damn i wish i could sleep the other half looks all happy in bed... but alas i am here.

My main reasons for bringing this all out like this are:

I wanted to show you that action wise at least, there's a lot more that doesn't add up with BB and if you'll allow me one last quote in this post:

[SomeRandomGuy]

Personally didn't like the softclaim, but BB is looking better, so I don't think he's the lynch for today

Kad...not so much. He's not even trying anymore, and that's something we don't need -_-.

Unvote, Vote: Kad

. Hammertime.

I honestly feel you should have left the hammer vote to Muffin, he was going to vote Kad anyway which is fairly evident. You do realise that if Kad flips scum you have some questions to answer?

[SomeRandomGuy]

More toward the fact with the hammer coming down on him, you felt the need to do it - knowing full well that Muffin had planned to.

Still though, it doesn't make you scum just as it wouldn't win you any town points in my eyes.

Anyway, lets hope this is the right result, if not lets crown Kad as a village idiot and make sure we get it right next lynch

[SomeRandomGuy]

meh, talk about it tomorrow. no real point making assumptions without the flip.

You're right..

talking of the flip i've been waiting for like 10 hours now, the anticipation is killing me

[SomeRandomGuy]

Kad, you could have at least told us how you were going to flip.

Anyway, Muffin thanks for clarifying that Kad was still going to be your hammer vote prior to the flip, not being wishy-washy before the flip when the pressure had been taken off of you in terms of the decision on who to hammer is commendable.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Wow. Let it be known that I STILL support my vote on BB. And I will NOT be supporting lynches based STRICTLY on inactivity. This is exactly why.

VOTE: zMuffinman - i want some responses to the stuff i raised prior to the flip regarding the way your interactions with BB have played out. BBmolla, please also respond to the points where it's relevant.

I'm going to go back and look through Haze's ISO and check where his interactions with people might lead to clues, but i think we all know that kill analysis doesn't give great results that can't be countered with WIFOM to a level that would confuse the best of us.

BB's vanilla claim made him an unlikely target for scum in the last night phase, which unfortunatly means we can't go down the route of 'why didn't scum kill you, unless you are scum' but again that line of enquiry just brings WIFOM also.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Haze only really seemed involved in the Kad / BB thing - opted to vote for Kad and jumped on voided for 'jumping the shark' much like i did. He wasn't active enough to likely be protected and i believe that ultimately led to his death as opposed for any other reason. It occurs to me that a Voided / Muffin scum team is also a possibility, but i'll have to look through their interactions together - it would create a lot of wifom either way voided jumping onto Kad when i don't believe any new evidence against him had really been raised whilst we were waiting on Muffin to hammer seems scummy - were you perhaps scared that with the new posts i had made Muffin would change his mind to BB? Or perhaps you wanted to spread the heat of the hammer between the two of you. Perhaps you're simply town who jumped the gun but please do elaborate.

[SomeRandomGuy]

There are other reasons your hammer on BB was scummy in my eyes btw voided or at least other reasons i could interperate that way, those however I will wait for your first response before talking of.

[SomeRandomGuy]

You didn't go with an aggressive defence / offence approach and certainly not with the one i had expected you to do esp if scum.

what do you think of BB at the moment? Also, what of Muffin? how about verydarks 'post #350? how do you read it?

Personally I don't like that post at all verydark - a very 'i told you so' attitude which helps with nothing. The fact is the case wasn't solely inactivity, it was also based on the posts he did make when he was active which has also been outlined, it seems a bit of a misrep to state otherwise. In my opinion in the way in which the wagons went assuming for a moment BB is also town, sitting on BB was the safest bet, sit there, criticise the lynch on Kad when he flips and push for the BB lynch in this day phase on the idea it was a more solid case than the Kad one in the previous day. With it being quite obvious for quite some time that it would be Kad eating the lynch it would be the perfect oppertunity, i even would go as far to say, it's exactly what i would have done as scum i'd have just been a bit more subtle with the dislike of kads lynch.

[SomeRandomGuy]

VOTE: zMuffinman - i want some responses to the stuff i raised prior to the flip regarding the way your interactions with BB have played out. BBmolla, please also respond to the points where it's relevant.

If you could elaborate on what you want me to respond to, then sure.

Anything from #330 that you think you can explain and anything else from since the day start that you can offer any thoughts on if you feel the need

I'll be honest, i'm actually surprised by the amount of people that could look scummy for some reason due to the wagons and flips, i guess this is the product of getting to people to L-1 and then having to decide between i think that's a situation that I'm going to try and avoid being in in the future.

Bv + Toast: Any thoughts?

[SomeRandomGuy]

@srg

It's hard to properly explain why I think BB is newb-town at this point, but it makes more sense in light of the recent revelation of his "I was going to claim VT and ask to be lynched" plan. This sort of thing comes from a different style of play and I've seen a fair few newbies coming from a different mafia background with the idea that it's OK to lynch them because they're VT. So far, I've seen none that have flipped scum (although there's an ongoing game I'm in that may prove me wrong on this one).

Apart from that, parts of his ISO just look genuinely town to me. For example, his ISO#14 list of reads early on. Follow that up with ISO#15 (where he says he can't explain his read on Bo), that's something I'd expect from newb-town, not newb-scum. newb-scum I'd be more inclined to believe would at least fabricate something to explain their read. Other examples include his response to verydark in ISO#27 (especially the last part, which really reads town to me) and is ISO#28 (where he asks for further explanation on the toast case - consistent with his previous read on toast, and also not taking the opportunity to sheep onto the bv/muffin votes on toast - there are a few reasons I could think BB-scum would do this, but it really looks town to me).

As for kad, I saw nothing of the sort. None of his posts really gave me any sort of feel for him being town, and there wasn't even any effort to scum hunt. There was just a general lack of involvement in the game, and considering my town read on BB, and the choice given the deadline, I wanted kad dead over BB.

But something is really, really off and I'll be doing some VCA over the next day or so, when I have some time. Either I'm wrong in my town read on BB (and I really don't think I am) or VCA and reading the posts leading up to where we had two L-1 wagons is going to be very, very telling.

I like this explaination, still though i feel you've failed to see some of the contradiction in BB's play for instance the:

'I was going to use the 'so vote me' that Kad did' yet i've shown you his response to that argument when Kad made it and BB didn't seem to like it - infact switching his vote right across - If he thought it to be a valid defence, why would that make him move his vote?

Also that he got less survival orientated, decided he'd go with the soft claim idea and then still backed out the moment he had to - He should have held on to it in my opinion, Kad was always more likely for the lynch - it just seems a little odd - if his aim was to eat the night kill he ended up instead making himself the one least likely to be targetted by it. I mean it may be something newbies here have used BUT the flip-flopping on his potential defence seems - odd? 'i was going to claim VT and asked to be lynched - people thought it was a soft claim so i went with that to draw a night kill and then i just came out as VT'.

All in all however i do like the explaination of your read on him, whether i fully agree with the conclusion you've came to right now aside, I can follow the reasoning.

[SomeRandomGuy]

BB - Red was replaced!
Also, I agree that claiming a PR is or at least usually IS anti-town and town have little to benefit from doing this BUT when you said that your aim at that point was to draw a night kill from the mafia making the plan completely clear was a wasted oppertunity and could be seen as the 'safe' claim for scum. If it were me as a VT and i had seen that people were interprating my post as a possible role claim i'd subtly play it up and when asked to claim I'd explain that 'If I claim, my role or lack thereof will be useless to the town, you'd be as well of lynching me.' You haven't claimed so no one will counter claim your role and worst comes to worst you get lynched for being a bit vague and closed - still that's better than a PR being lynched - although if you thought Kad was scum i can understand why you'd not want to get yourself lynched, still though i believe it to have been certain enough he was going to be lynched regardless.

@SRG: It seems to me that you are still suspicious of BB, but only based on some gameplay errors rather than scumminess.

Well, essentially you're right in a way but scuminess can lead to such gameplay errors. It seems we had 3 possible final cases from BB and i think flip flopping between them isn't a good thing. I mean, when we're at a point that things he does are automatically viewed as 'gameplay errors' when they can also be interpreted otherwise we have a slight problem, let me put forward a few scenarios which could have been the case:

BB began to hint at power role in his defence, his scum team mate seeing that explained it wasn't a good play (and i honestly believe as a scum tactic this early on - it wouldn't have been, not with kad as likely or more so to be lynched) The town power role he claimed (even if it was a duplicate) wasn't necessarily going to counter claim but BB would have made somebody very certain of his scum alignment. So, he decides to go for the safe claim.
A note on this: If he had claimed doctor, and i was doctor for instance i'd have moved my vote from Kad to him - i'd have done so in a way that would hopefully stop the scum from realising it was because of the claim.

As i say, it's not just a case 'gameplay error' but the reasoning that could possibly sit behind it. I'd have expected you to at least realise that, Toasty.

Main suspects for me are hard to list right now, simply because in my mind there's so much possibility still and whilst we have information to work on it can be interprated in a lot of different ways. As Muffin rightly pointed out 'something is really off right now' and whilst i view BB as a possible scum player still I'm not certain of it, the feeling that we're being led on a wild goose chase is quite strong.

Bv - you've gotten quiet, get in here

[SomeRandomGuy]

Bv + Toast: Any thoughts?

About anything in particular?

Nope not really, just looking for thoughts

[SomeRandomGuy]

Oh lol, first post isn't updated so I saw his name on there and I was like "Hm where has he been?"

In addition to the points I mentioned earlier, I'm guessing there was scum on the kad wagon. BB's vote seems like the most probable candidate. He seemed to vote kad more for being unhelpful than being a true scumread. He also contradicted himself about his read on kad: first saying "he's a town member that doesn't care," then saying "I'm getting a dumb read," then saying "he's my scummiest read."

He seemed like a town member who didn't care, due to him being pretty dumb and unhelpful. He was my scummiest read however, mainly because everyone else seemed town to me. I wasn't lying.

@bv: If I were to be scum, who do you think my partner would be? And if I were to pop up blue, who would be your immediate suspects?

Also, if it's going to cause issues, we can lynch me today just to prove my innocence. It'll be a ML, but it'll clear some things up and allow people to get past me as the obvious scumread.

Thoughts?

I didn't like when Kad said 'Vote me then' I don't like it when you make comments like the bolded either.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Don't take it to heart BB, you're still here today when you said something similar in day 1 - I'm sure there were times you were fairly certain you'd be dead by now

[SomeRandomGuy]

@Muffin - It's also worth pointing out that prior to his vote on Kad, Redcobalt was his first choice target he put Kad at L-1 along with BB as his second scum suspect. So he was forcing a second claim. What I would say is that you're right, the other scum member is likely on the other wagon, with how late toast joined the the Kad wagon, if he's scum it seems like he waited a while to create distance before hopping on the other wagon. Scum wouldn't have both piled onto the BB lynch in the begininning they'd want one away from it knowing it was a mislynch.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Whether voided knew when he first replaced who he was replacing or not is pretty irrelevent, either way we have a case of that he thought his read scummy. If scum it creates nice distance, essentially it's like bussing your scum partner, except here no one dies.

The issue is of course that if done on purpose and he did know it did create that space - it looks very honest to give a scum read on the person you replaced, 'I would have voted for him if he wasn't the one i replaced' automatically makes us feel that he's working with us, as opposed to against.

I was thinking this over myself, 'what would I do if i replaced in?' I think i'd be tempted to read the game which voided must have done to be able to post reads in his first post and doing so would reveal who he replaced. However in ISO i realise that Voided's second post mentioned it was up until page 7 - #359 was the mods post saying redcobalt was being replaced obviously far further through the game.

I think indications in what voided has posted does seem to point out that he was reading the game in chunks, rather than doing one big read through and that his first few posts are reads as he does that. Firstly he notes it was Page 5 he was up to then Page 7.

He had around 30 minutes to read the rest of the thread between being at Page 7 and responding to the question about having a scum read on the spot he filled - I mean, everything here DOES add up with his story - that he read chunks of the game and continued onward giving reads along the way, however - 'RedCobalt is being replaced' was just 2 - 3 posts above the one where voided shows his reads, certainly he noticed it by then?

[SomeRandomGuy]

Toasty, if it were me in Voided shoes i'd also catagorically reject the claim that I had said 'I'd vote me' - He was saying he would vote his own slot, that he'd vote the person before him based on the way they acted - not that he'd vote themselves.

The key thing here is to remember that Voided and Red are different people, whilst fulfilling the same slot they're not suddenly merged into some Redvoid_mafia. I agree that his giving a scum read could be to create distance but right now, you're doing exactly the opposite.

For this case to work and be solid i believe we'd need the following:

Something to prove that when he made the posts regarding suspecting the old player that he knew who he was replacing and is lying about it. I've looked through his ISO and aside from the fact he may well have seen the post by shotty regarding the replacement there's nothing to indicate that he did indeed know.

Voided distanced himself from his old player completely, choosing completely the opposite tactic to Muffin who didn't mention them.

I don't know what to think, Red wasn't exactly massively scummy from my reading of the game, I don't understand why Voided-scum would feel the need to distance the way he did - I mean assuming for a moment that he IS scum and that he obviously knew red was, red had done little enough in gaining suspicion that it's nothing voided needed to defend himself from.

Still though, that's not to say that voided couldn't be scum, simply that this case isn't exactly hole-proof and i'd need something to prove what you're saying or to hint at the motivation voided would have had as mafia to make the red scum read posts.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Right, I think I need to read through everything again from the start to finish, I really don't want to see another mislynch and I feel that is a strong possibility at the moment if even the smallest details are overlooked. What we have here is essentially an argument which could blow the game open, or mean nothing and i'm having a wee bit of trouble really distinguishing which of the two it is and furthermore which side of the argument comes from town.

3 minutes after I post, Muffin notes that I just said that I'd vote RedCobalt (and therefore myself) if I replaced in.
I catch up to page 7 and post my reads then. I still don't know I replaced cobalt, also evidenced by how I talk as if he's still there.

This is the main issue with the argument, Voided - the idea that you posted your reads without seeing that and that the post only a wee bit above yours from Shotty was seemingly missed too but again, it's not garunteed that you'd have seen either and your story is plausible. Who is guilty here is something i'm still uncertain of but with the people involved here, i'm unlikely to believe it is town on town at this point.

[SomeRandomGuy]

And it seems you believe that whether or not my argument holds will determine how the rest (or most of the rest) of the game will go, correct?

What I feel is that if someone involved in this is scum, we'll be on our way to finding the second one also, at least we'll have more information, the type the Kad lynch left us without. The kad lynch certainly must have been the one that the scum ideally would have wanted to go through, after all it's the one that gave us nothing, i'm going to look at that again also i think.

[SomeRandomGuy]

1) It might be worth wondering why certain people didn't get killed by scum as opposed to 'why did they kill Haze' but it's not going to lead to anything that isn't going to create a whole load of WIFOM.

2) I don't know what to think on that, but it doesn't sit right as i've mentioned extensively before.

The Master Hand was Toasy, the next post made was by him appologising to the mod - I believe it to be a hydra account and he forgot to log over.

[SomeRandomGuy]

2)

Since BB beat around the bush a lot as to potentially having a power role early in the game, and then claiming he's a VT at hammer time....why wasn't he the one that was NK'd. No one else slipped up like that. Could it be because he's actually

neither

a PR or VT?

I thought this was fairly obvious. The reason they kept me alive is because of all the suspicion on me. Why would they kill someone who half the town thinks is scum? That makes no sense. I mean, think about it. As mafia would you rather kill:

A. A player who a lot are suspicious of who is almost confirmed not to be a PR.
OR
B. A player who nobody suspects and could potentially be a PR.

Night killing me would have been stupid on their part and the fact you had to even ask this makes me wonder.

Questioning it is not scummy, BB.
Taking you out would have created a lot of suspicion probably on quite a few actual town players, your soft claiming is the closest thing scum have to information on a PR and whilst you retracted it it COULD have been been a way to hide that you actually do have one and decided that announcing it early in the game was a bad idea.
I mean, automatically assuming that you've made gameplay errors when you could have actually made some smart moves that could either 1) Paint you as a PR or 2) Paint you as scum is a dangerous road, for scum and for town, depending of course on your alignment.
Either way that's a great load of WIFOM you just created.

[SomeRandomGuy]

I like that you didn't try to rubbish that possible view.

[SomeRandomGuy]

I'm going to take a look through voided's ISO to verify or disprove what you've said BB, as well as looking at Bv who i've found to be quite hard to read thus far.

IMO, you've been not a bit more useful then Kad, who while FOSing me still gave his thoughts on other people's points and looked at almost everyone.

I think that's unfair, Kad posted nothing of merit, his play style was that of a VI and he left us with nothing on his death, arguably the one thing a VT should endeavour to do is leave information trails through his interactions for when he dies, aswell as trying to get killed at night, both things he didn't do.

Also you're quite quick to play down the reasons for the Kad lynch there, BB and in all fairness, if your previous posts were like this, you'd have not found yourself at L-1 in day 1. I'm still finding your change of post style to be 'interesting', aswell as other issues with the soft claim / unclaim but i'm not feeling you're as scummy as previously (at least not as outwardly so)

Put your vote on Voided, stand by your case in a visually easy way to see.

[SomeRandomGuy]

I did mean verydark over voided, indeed.

---------
Also, haven't placed my vote because if I'm the only one who thinks of someone being scum the vote is absolutely pointless.
---------

There're plenty of reasons to put your vote there if they're your biggest scum read - especially when you seem to fully believe your case, if other people don't agree, you can ofc always move your vote it's not like it's one vote per day

[SomeRandomGuy]

Muffin, can i ask you what exactly makes you feel i might be scum and furthermore why i would be so with Bv?

[SomeRandomGuy]

I'll be V/LA for a short while, hope to get it sorted soon, should be able to post once in a while still but i'm having a few issues due to having to leech a very unstable connection for a few days.

Hope to catch up with the game some time tonight though!

[SomeRandomGuy]

I'd vote a town read if it came down to a choice between him and I.

Yeah, that's the correct play, since (assuming you're town) there is of course a higher chance of a town read being scum than of you being scum.

Or if your problem with BB is that he was inconsistent with his read, I'm not entirely sure about that. Seems to me like he was saying that kad is either scum or "dumb" town, and if kad was town, BB was less of a liability, or something to that effect.

And he also called kad his "scummiest read."

I wasn't lying, he was my scummiest read, except for maybe verydark. But the read itself was flawed because I didn't know if it was just him being dumb as town or him being scum.

Shall I repeat myself again?

Yes, please.

Right sorry i got inactive here for a while, lack of payment to virgin media etc,etc anyway got a couple of games i need to catch up with, hopefully will get through them all tonight, if not i'll respond here tomorrow. Will get a full read done

[SomeRandomGuy]

Right so i've had a re-read now and again let me appologise for my absence.

There's a lot of defence going on for BB if he is town (as i'm tenatively going to assume) then someone is likely defending him for all the wrong reasons.

Muffin, I don't like your 180 on me, not because your suspicion worries me but because PoE itself is flawed, especially when PoV is making you drop your previous major scum read (toasty) and moving you onto your previous biggest town read (me). If you want to make the case of me and bv being a scum team, feel free to do so, back it up with more than PoE and i'd respond to any points you raise. The other worrying thing here is that I don't see a cat in hells chance of you getting me lynched today and with a bit of suspicion seemingly going Bv's way from a few people if you managed to get him lynched you'd have the perfect in to continue pushing for my lynch, because we have toasty in the mix who you believe could also be my partner, although not as strongly as you think Bv could.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Also Muffin, the idea that the hammer was taken away from you in the last day means nothing to confirm the hammerer... there wasn't too much of a fall out from that and really nothing that couldn't be controlled - the fact that argument can be made, surely HELPS them to NOT appear scum? Nice that you'd make that case for them!

[SomeRandomGuy]

Whilst it is completely possible that we had a scum on each side of the wagons it's not a dead certainty, if assuming that is the case leads you to through PoE to suspect your previous town read, it's perhaps time to rethink the possibility of 2 scum being on one wagon or one of the scum being the other wagon victim. The issue with connections toward me is that there's bound to be a few, most seem to trust me, the scum know that I'm town, to think that some would not use that to their advantage, as either town or scum wouldn't be the genius thing to do. I will say on the trust of me that I am of course not confirmed, everyone should absolutely still be considering that I could be scum but taking into account these things would be wise.
I actually wish I had taken the move I was heavily considering toward the end of Day 1, which was switching my vote to BB and bringing about a lynch, whilst some concerns are leaving my mind regarding him, looking back on Day 1 I actually find myself feeling his case was more compelling although Kad was infuriating.

Generally, the reason i think this PoE is flawed falls down to the fact it falls down to an assumption of 1 scum on each wagon, then it falls to perceived links when the scum team, if well played will have made links with townies and avoided too many links between themselves.

On Toasty and Bv:

Toasty - I've never felt as suspicious of him as you have previously, there've been no real slips from him and i find him fairly trustable.
Bv - He's hard to read, in fact at times i've considered he was perhaps scum mainly down to that reasoning though.

I do need to reread through the whole of the game which i will do soon, i'm trying to catch up with 4 games at the moment whilst trying to mess around with Google+ ^_^

[SomeRandomGuy]

Oh and my suspicions I'll answer again after the reread as hopefully i can find something i've missed or overlooked for some better reads.

[SomeRandomGuy]

The VCA is still integral to your argument, even if it is only narrowing the numbers from 3 to 2. The idea that your PoE is accurate enough that in those 3 you have both scum in it, is unlikely too.

[SomeRandomGuy]

I'm not too up for lynching BB - I will if it's the option and it's not to say I disagree with that lynch - I don't but i'd say that if BB is scum the main threat we face as town is his partner.

I'd vote bvoigt but I've got nothing solid against him.

A couple of posts later and no case put forward:

Wagons are probably going to be me and bv.

And a vote on Bv - Are you choosing him simply because you see it as him or you? or because you believe he is scum? If so what solid reasoning do you now have that you didn't a few posts ago?

[SomeRandomGuy]

Has anyone heard of the Amished tell btw?

I havent, what is it?

[SomeRandomGuy]

then looks like you'll have the hammer SRG.

Just what I've always wanted! <.<

[SomeRandomGuy]

Ok ladies, defences up please, as well as arguments against the other person - especially you BB, you've only really said you've been suspicious of Bv and not really YOUR case, don't just echo other cases on him, see if you can find something that makes you certain which may not have been mentioned. I'll be reading over things too of course, but i'd like to see why you believe the other wagon is the best lynch and i swear to god one: 'I'm not scum, so the best lynch is him!' and i'll hammer whoever said it right there.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Nothing specific right now but i may well have some questions after a read through i've planned for tomorrow (today now here in the uk). I'll be honest in that the request was more aimed toward BB as from what I remember, he hasn't really gone through what the case on you is and i'd like to see it from his perspective. I don't want to feel like his vote is based on it being a perceived choice of you or him.

More tomorrow.

[SomeRandomGuy]

I read your post and then clicked the link after... it was #566 which i must say i REALLY wasn't expecting to see again... The same post that I asked you for a case on Bv i also said if i hear that, i'll lynch whoever said it. Now, i'm not going to automatically make good on that claim it wouldn't be pro-town to do so but please do explain how you missed that, and what made you think it was a good idea to test?

[SomeRandomGuy]

I didn't miss it, you posted 571 after 566 I was just pointing out it was funny that I did exactly what you said not to before you said not to do it.

Ha, i see. I had just read it that you were posting that out as your case now. right, i've got some reading to do here before i can comment much more, get any final thoughts in people , we should all look through again to make sure we get this right and i might miss stuff if it's just me looking :p.

[SomeRandomGuy]

The issue we have on the LyLo thing is that BB has been here once before, he doesn't seem to be able to stem suspicion on him. I mean, he's going to be a fairly simple mislynch in that situation isn't he?

I'm not certain at this point what to think but allowing if BB is scum and how convinved i've felt of that in the past for him to slip through a second time.

the BB argument has also been going on a long time, i believe if he does flip town, we have more to work on from day 1 and day 2 and the way people were toward him.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Also, we risk losing a power role in Bv but not with BB.

In terms of the safer bet should they turn up town seems to be BB.

[SomeRandomGuy]

My gut on BB is (at times) confused town, Bv is harder to read, i believe his first comment on town taking it slow on the next stage due to LyLo as a seemingly helpful on the way out 'what a nice chap!' and might help garner trust. I don't see BB as being the lynch for today, i've tried to see it from both sides and most seem that BB is likely town, his inconsistancies his play style, it just seems confused.

I'm not convinced that Bv is scum - I find him hard to read, I find him less likely to be town... I support a Bv lynch over a BB one. I will vote that way in an hour or two should nothing come out.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Right, i'm finding this really difficult to decide, infact i've changed my mind a few times already.

I keep looking for partnerships, i've done a VCA for Kad's lynch and the current votes:

.|Vote count 8|.

BBmolla-3(

kad2361

, verydark, bvoigt)

kad2361

-5(

SomeRandomGuy

, BBmolla,

Haze

, ToastyToast, VoidedMafia)Lynched
ToastyToast-1(zMuffinMan)

Not Voting-0
With 9 alive it takes 5 votes to lynch


BBmolla-2(bvoigt, VeryDark, Voided)L-1
zMuffinMan-1(

SomeRandomGuy

)
bvoigt-2(zMuffinMan, BBmolla, Toastytoast)L-1

This is from my point of view how everything maps out, Toasty has been on the same wagon as BB both times, bv has both times been voting for BB, BB was quick on both wagons. Muffin did nothing in the day 1 lynch and today has his vote on bv. There needs to be scum on the Kad wagon, i know i'm not scum, i know that haze wasn't, it leaves BB, toasty and voided if i were to choose from them? I'd probably choose BB.
I get the feeling a toastytoast wagon was meant to have formed in day 1, taking away from the BB wagon, this time perhaps a bv one? 2 wagons opposing BB's were started or attempted at starting by Muffin.
The amount of suspicion on BB has been fairly constant, he's gotten out of a spot once, where he soft claimed, took it back, etc and i believe even if by chance i'm wrong, we'll get more from his death than if i'm wrong about Bv.

VOTE: BBmolla

[SomeRandomGuy]

I really do hope i'm right, but on a read back he seems most likely. With the no role claim from Bv it's unwise to lynch also. Tonights results will be interesting.

[SomeRandomGuy]

I'm guessing then since the lack of admission of guilt from BB that i made a bad choice, i was honestly flipping between the 2 of them almost constantly. I'm not sure what this means in terms of Bv, i think looking back at everything in context of BB being confirmed town may give more to work with though. And hopefully a good result or 2 in this night phase will help a lot.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Firstly we need to not drop our votes down easily - a misvote means scum can hammer.

I'm unsure on the claims - it really depends what information people have that they can claim with, however we should wait it out a little i expect as getting to scum without reveals would surely be best.

The kad lynch:

.|Vote count 8|.

BBmolla-3(

kad2361

, verydark, bvoigt)
kad2361-5(

SomeRandomGuy, BBmolla, Haze,

ToastyToast, VoidedMafia)Lynched
ToastyToast-1(

zMuffinMan

)

.|Vote count 12|.
BBmolla-4(bvoigt, VeryDark, voidedmafia,

somerandomguy

)Lynched
VoidedMafia-0
SomeRandomGuy-0
verydark-0
ToastyToast-0
zMuffinMan-0
bvoigt-3(

zMuffinMan, BBmolla,

toastytoast)L-1

[SomeRandomGuy]

Now, i've coloured the 2 lynches in things as i see them, obviously you do not know for sure whether or not i am town, but i do and thus the colours.

the only 2 people to be on both of the lynches are myself and voided.

Kad has the largest number of town that i can make out of any lynch - notice, it's the first 3 votes with him that are all town, the scum watched that one happen
How to use this information?
Look at Toasty and Voided, looking for anything suspicious in the way they moved the wagon forward.
Toasty and Bv both were on one of the bad lynches, but not together.
Toasty voted Bv in the day BB was lynched, how hard did he push for Bv to be lynched? Did he seem to try and persuade that way, or subtly knock me away from it?
Verydark is in a similar situation as Bv - voting BB both days/

What's obvious is that i've been incredibly off with my reads, there was times where i was suspicious of both BB and Muffin, Kad also.

Please analyse and see if there's anything else you can see that i missed, i've not done much work on myself, since i know my alignment, so feel free.

[SomeRandomGuy]

@Bv + voided - thoughts on Toasty please
@Toasty + very dark - thoughts on Bv please

This is in context of the votes, however if you want to expand it would be appreciated.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Just remembered that toasty's vote was missed and he had started the Kad wagon.

I'll post who the scum is following answers / arguments.

[SomeRandomGuy]

I'll go third

[SomeRandomGuy]

In actual fact, I'd like to go last, I think this would be a better sequence.

[SomeRandomGuy]

How does the rolecop effect this by the way? It would seem that scum have had a whole night and possible role cop results to base their claims on.

[SomeRandomGuy]

scum HAS to claim VT. There are only 2 town PR's and claiming such makes them a target.

Rolecop's allow scum to find PR's w/o needing them to claim.

Does that answer your question?

It does kinda

[SomeRandomGuy]

I am just a Townie. I think we should do popcorn style, where the person who claims chooses who goes next. I'd like Voided next, please.

@SRG: My thoughts on bv are the same as my thoughts on him yesterday.

bv and voided are still looking like the scum team to me.
PEDIT: Even with the last post considered
Also, I was only on one wagon where town flipped. WTF u talkin about?

I meant that the wagon on me yesterday had two townies, and you, on it.

Also, I'm in agreement with SRG that we should sort out our thoughts on each player first b4 massclaiming. The main advantage of a massclaim in a setup like this is that we basically get two confirmed town with results.

I'm not saying wait all day but I want to hear from everyone first. At this point having 2conf town is more valuable then having hidden PR's

Well, they wouldn't be confirmed town. We might have an extra VT, and only one power role.

Aye, that's what i was getting at and of course the scum know at least one of our roles, if they know 2, they could already know there's only 1 claim to come as opposed to two.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Interesting...

[SomeRandomGuy]

You might aswell claim now, toast.

[SomeRandomGuy]

I missed that... remove your vote now please.

[SomeRandomGuy]

However:

If Verydark is town:

Me + toasty cannot be a scum team.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Nor me + Bv or Bv and toasty.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Ha, spaz posting there me thinks...

If VD is town,

Me + toasty cannot be a scum team.
that's all we know haha anything involving Bv of course is null <.<

[SomeRandomGuy]

scum HAS to claim VT. There are only 2 town PR's and claiming such makes them a target.

Not true, because I'm the LAST

VT

. There are 5 VT's, and 4 are dead.

This is why I was so concerned with the amount of VT's, starting as early as Post #395

Firstly there is still a chance that you could both be vt's, isn't there? The fact that me and toast haven't hammered Bv shows we're not a scum team, which means at least one of us are town. Chances are that one of Bv or yourself are scum.

What makes you SO certain about Bv being scum, when now we have only 1 PR claim and 2 more people still left? (Myself and voided). What if there was only 1 PR and me and voided are in wait? He could be scum, I could be scum and if that were the case, knowing Bv was town, i'd happily sit here until the second your vote was either removed or voided came online to hammer with me.

If only for this reason alone, you need to take your vote off of Bv now.

[SomeRandomGuy]

@muffin:
-BB is leaning town, yes.
-verydark is null.

J

ust had bad feeling.

A

fter

I

iso'd him, bv and voided still came up on top for my most

L

ikely scum-suspects.

Forgot about my crumb

For what it's worth, i believe your claim.

[SomeRandomGuy]

I forgot that it's 3 to lynch. My bad.
UNVOTE: Bvoigt

It's all good, you've at least confirmed that me and Toasty cannot be a scum team, although with his claim i think we knew already that toasty is not scum.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Just to really drive the point home though: ANY vote by a townie prior to all claims and subsequent conversation is not only anti-town but VI play - No matter how sure you are of someones guilt, there is still statistically chance for you to be wrong.

[SomeRandomGuy]

SRG: You still want to claim last, correct?

Yes indeedy, it would be preferable

[SomeRandomGuy]

I am the town cop.

Night 1 - Investigated Toasty. He looked a little suspicious during Day 1 at times, Muffin's tunnelling on him was also bizzarre looking - confirmed town
Night 2 - Investigated BV however it failed, giving me no result.

2 of you 3 are scum.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Toasty, we need to decide who to lynch - I'll investigate one, you JK the other.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Voided - Who should we lynch first?
Bv - who should we lynch first?
Verydark - who should we lynch first?

[SomeRandomGuy]

.|Vote count 8|.

BBmolla-3(

kad2361

,

verydark, bvoigt

)
kad2361-5(

SomeRandomGuy, BBmolla, Haze,

ToastyToast

,

VoidedMafia

)Lynched
ToastyToast-1(

zMuffinMan

)

.|Vote count 12|.
BBmolla-4(

bvoigt, VeryDark, voidedmafia,

somerandomguy

)Lynched
VoidedMafia-0
SomeRandomGuy-0
verydark-0
ToastyToast-0
zMuffinMan-0
bvoigt-3(

zMuffinMan, BBmolla,

toastytoast

)L-1

Kad had atleast on scum on his wagon
BB had both mafia on his wagon.
The votes on Bv were ALL town aligned.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Now, we're at this stage we need to really think about this, i'd like the 3 'VT's to answer the question i posed to them. Obviously we're in a good position here, a 1 in 3 chance of a mislynch isn't exactly terrible but we need to think about it carefully. Kad could have been the only townie on the BB wagon in day 1, just like we may have had not even one scum on the kad wagon at all. Toasty, where are you leaning with this one?

[SomeRandomGuy]

wow that's quite the wall i obviously haven't managed to read it as of yet, but i will shortly, i just need to do the true english bit of making a cup of tea. obviously, votes don't matter too much now, myself and toasty will not be placing ours until L-1 and lynch.

[SomeRandomGuy]

before reading a few questions which you may have answered:

The votes on Kad then were ALL townie if you are voided, why shouldn't this seem odd?

It also means Verydark and Bv both pursed a BB lynch for the whole of the game, was his initial bad play really enough to make it safe for no distancing when it comes to votes?

[SomeRandomGuy]

I'm simply trying to say that BB obviously caught some suspicion in the first day for sub-par play at the time. The idea of both scum being on him for both days knowing he was town seems slightly odd. If you were scum, would that be a decision you'd have made? Was BB's play scummy enough that both you and your scum partner voting for him 2 days in a row (having your votes on the same target both days) would seem like a good idea?

[SomeRandomGuy]

Right, so very dark and voided you guys both put the other as the lynch candidate first with bv following. Bv seems to support a voided lynch more so than one on verydark. Neither of you are suggesting that we lynch Bv first...

[Quote=" I'd rather keep my target quiet. It all depends on today's lynch, and if I publicly announce what I'm going to do, they will just kill will the other person (which is why we have to get this lynch correct)."]

What i meant about this was that you should tell me once the hammer is made, so that i can investigate the other possible scum. This way i get an innocent or guilty and if innocent, obviously there wont even be a night kill. If there is a night kill, if it's on either of us, that is fine - we know it came from the target i investigated and the true town member will vote along with me or you.

[SomeRandomGuy]

So long as we get this lynch right, the game is towns.

[SomeRandomGuy]

But if your scum crazy gambiting....you GDIF

is GDIF 'Go Die In Fire'?

I am not scum crazy gambiting, i can assure you AND to make that easier on you i'm willing to let you choose of the 3 who we lynch you can have the first vote, i will hammer it, this way i at least have no sway on a possible mislynch in this day phase, which would certainly be quicker for a gambiting scum in terms of winning the game and doing so with perfection. that's not to say i wont put in some input, i probably will but it is quite likely your reads this game have been better than mine anyway.

[SomeRandomGuy]

If i am lying though, that does bring your chance to 1 in 3 of lynching correctly, as opposed to 50/50 if you considered me also on the flip side if i'm telling the truth it's a 1 in 3 chance of mislynch only. assess my play throughout the game and make your mind on it.

[SomeRandomGuy]

In hindsight...
I'll support either a BV or Voided lynch....and I strongly encourage you to jail the other one, and investigate me to prove I'm town.

It doesn't matter which way around that part is done, but again it would be Toastys decision.

Why would you prefer to be the investigated?

[SomeRandomGuy]

In hindsight...
It's POSSIBLE that toasty or SRG are lying about their PR and we have 1 PR and 1 additional VT.

The only possibility of a lie comes from me, since my version of events was posted AFTER toasty mentioned who his night targets were along with his claim. the fact no one else claimed means you can 100% trust toasty.

If toasty was lying and i am not:
As scum toasty would not know that i was roleblocked, it'd be a very unsafe assumption to have made. The fact i have confirmed that at least means that either we're both scum (which cannot be true due to no other claims) or at worst that I am lying.

I had left my claim until last, to allow for a fake scum PR claim and down to the fact that i can verify toasty, i'd have know which one was lying. As unlikely as it seemed to be, it could have happened.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Unless your going to tell me that voided-verydark is the scum team, from my PoV bv has the highest chance of being scum.

The only issue i have is that both Verydark and and Voided pointed fingers at each other, this very much leaves Bv as the certainty through PoE - if Verydark and Voided were scum together, this would be the optimal play.

I will place my vote down today and will follow your lead BUT it's something we need to think about. In all honesty i still think Bv is scum, he had a complete town wagon on him, he's been fairly scummy, BUT i think we need to consider the verydark / voided possibility a little and i intent to look at that and see if it's a viable option.

@Voided: Why would you prefer a verydark lynch over Bv when in actuality it makes NO difference?

[SomeRandomGuy]

@Toasty - read through verydarks ISO

he's constantly bringing up suspicion of Voided, mentioning points but often sandwiches them or ends on someone else being the most scummy. 'If Kad flips town i'm going to look at voided much more' which in fairness he does, but he then goes on to the Muffin / BB idea of a scum team which we know cannot be true. There's plenty of this stuff, just search voided in his posts and see how he mentions him.

I'll be doing similar with Voided, since he has quite a few more posts i may actually quote things.

I don't know, the PoE voided / verydark seem to have left us doesn't sit quite right.

[SomeRandomGuy]

I'm going to investigate Voided, Verydark was the first to ask to be investigated and that puts me off, if we can go with the investigative result as the lynch tomorrow, as opposed to a kill, i'd be quite happy with that - no needless deaths would be nice we've lost enough of our own already, a last person dying would just be annoying :p

Bv lynch it is then. I've looked through the ISO of Voided and he was a lot more aggressive about the suspicion between him and very dark, it puts me at easy more about the possible verydark + voided team, though i can't quite shake the thought out of my mind completely. Time will tell i suppose.

I think BB was likely targetted by the mafia rolecop, they saw he was VT and so pushed a lynch on him since his bad play plus VT role meant there was no point in nking him and the fall out from a VT death via lynch is likely to be less severe.

VOTE: Bvoigt

My god have mercy on our souls if we're wrong Toasty.

[SomeRandomGuy]

So a verydark + Voided team is impossible, good it really started to scare me there.

@Mod - With only 3 left alive is there any chance you can make the night deadline just a day? Voided is pretty active as are myself and toasty. :p

[SomeRandomGuy]

P.S Verydark - Don't appear offline like that! I hadn't noticed you online and then saw you'd responded and totally shit myself

and i meant 4, sorry mistype.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Toasty, please jail Verydark, i shall investigate voided (incase you missed it).

haha no worries

[SomeRandomGuy]

Also, if there is no kill, please wait until i vote to confirm a guilty BEFORE you place your vote - it could be a gambit hoping that you'd get there before i managed to post and with no kill assume that the person i was investigating was innocent.

[SomeRandomGuy]

If there's a night kill you wont need the results, whomever is left will KNOW it had to be voided. Just like if he decided not to kill, my investigation would prove him to be scum. It really doesn't matter at this point, it's a win for town.

[SomeRandomGuy]

I've said what i'll be doing and unless Toasty comes in here prior to lynch scene and asks for it the other way around, it should be what is stuck to.

[SomeRandomGuy]

If that gets either me or toasty killed, it sucks - it would be nice to have the 3 town on the wagon, but there's a chance either way.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Have you seen scum be this adamant before? For real dude, I want us to mercilessly eliminate BV and Voided.

I've never been in this situation before. Why the scum would even bother to do anything but claim is beyond me that said however, neither you or voided seem likely to do so.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Voided, just go ahead and claim so we can get this over with and I can finally have my

FIRST WIN ON MAFIASCUM!!!

It'll be mine too

[SomeRandomGuy]

Welp, it's been fun, Auron/Dragonforce buddy.

It's been a good game, i actually thought once my investigation didn't go through in the last night phase that we were in real trouble.

[SomeRandomGuy]

E-cards or are you willing to pay for cross sea postage for me?

[SomeRandomGuy]

verydark: *sticks tongue out* wait and see, boy.

Lol, why confirm your guilt yet not give him what he wants?

[SomeRandomGuy]

SRG: I will hand deliver it, that's how much I love you.

On a totally unrelated note...does anyone have a few thousand dollars I can borrow that will NOT be going towards air travel and accommodations to England...as well as a field trip to Amsterdam. I hear they have some tasty "brownies" and "milkshakes".

Fuck it, just hand deliver it in amsterdam, i like brownies and milkshake

[SomeRandomGuy]

Welp, it's been fun, Auron/Dragonforce buddy.

verydark: *sticks tongue out* wait and see, boy.

Infact, just confirm that to the best of your knowledge Bv wasn't a mislynch and that toasty wasn't scum who made a most brilliant play saying he blocked me and i happened to be blocked and i'll be happy :p

[SomeRandomGuy]

On this site, aye. I've won as both scum and town elsewhere.

Well, the thing i thought with toasty is perhaps that since there's a rolecop in the game, they could have known i was the cop, which means toasty could have, he then could have seen i didn't come forward with any results of guilty and thrown out his assumption of me being blocked. Unlikely, yes but possible.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Still that would mean someone neglected to claim which is also very silly play.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Aye, true that.

I always get random half thought out 'possibilities' in my head come lynch time, especially on crucial ones, i get all on edge and fidgety

The bad bit for the scum here is that I am actually the cop, tonights result is going to end the game, i'll wait if i must ^_^ hurry up dry

[SomeRandomGuy]

Why aren't you full on attacking my 'slip'?
As either town or scum I'd be all over it. You're honestly going to let me get away with it? I was hoping to see if the argument you and / or verydark made seemed town or scum motivated so that i could happily conclude whom the scum was before my investigation result, i'm damned impatient like that and as i say, i feel all on edge once a lynch goes through.

Obviously Toasty is town, BUT you don't know for 100% that I am, i gave you something to attempt to argue at yet you haven't. Toasty could be town gambiting his role but so early in the reveals? I doubt it and as town he wouldn't need to anyway.

The weird thing here is that the scum likely didn't know that i was the cop else i'd likely be dead furthermore if they knew for sure that i was counter claiming would have been the only option of survival. I suspect the scum in you two is the rolecop and that you're hoping i'm not the cop so i gave you this little 'slip' to push your case with.

Ah forget it, i'll have to wait until the investigation result to fully know the truth but i'm finding myself to be 90% sure.

What is funny though Voided is that you went from practically confirming your guilt in #703 to

If I were scum

[SomeRandomGuy]

It's why i find the whole 'Investigate me' thing to be so odd - townies shouldn't care either way, scum who think there's a possibility (no matter how remote) that i'm not the cop would find it preferable so that when a kill doesn't happen they can say 'well, i was protected X must be scum' and hope that toasty throws his vote right in there.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Well, thats me done trying to figure it out before the results. i really hope Dry decides a shortened night phase would be the best option, it's a town win already.

[SomeRandomGuy]

If before my result on the investigated player came out, you put your vote there and then said 'well no kill obviously it cant be me' and toasty without thinking (unlikely) were to say 'Ah, in that case the investigation target must be scum' before i give my result you'd win :p

[SomeRandomGuy]

but we'd be left with 4 and need 3 to vote, right? Gah i'm an idiot haha i'll just shut up now.

[SomeRandomGuy]

So if you know how impossible it is to win, why aren't you just claiming so we can end this thing right here?

[SomeRandomGuy]

You already went halfway to it in response to very dark in the last page.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Or I could hope that by some freak accident you forget to investigate.
Pretty much the only way I'd win is if you're either not the cop or are the cop but don't investigate.

Well, even if i were not to be the cop, at this point you've already given as close to a confession as we need, plus you'd know i was town anyway.

I'm going to guess the reason being your policy of not giving spoilers

[SomeRandomGuy]

That's the thing, you obviously believe that I am or you'd have pushed against my fake slip.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Actually, I never thought about pushing the slip. Hell, I didn't even know there was one.

You couldn't possibly have missed it?

When i was talking about the possibility of Bv being town i mentioned it could be a well played out move by toasty scum... which of course is not only so close to impossible anyway but figure in the fact i investigated him night 1 and KNOW he cannot be it looks like a slip.

[SomeRandomGuy]

It was mostly me being a little silly with asking you to confirm things, including something that was impossible but i also wanted to leave something for you to push on. Anyway i'm near convinced you're scum so it's a moot point that you didn't push on it now.

[SomeRandomGuy]

basically i was just looking at what way you would have pushed it:

a) He's made a slip, he can't be the cop and thus must be scum gambiting!
b) He's made a slip, but he still could be town gambiting just as he could be scum
c) He's made a slip but he's still 100% town

a + c aren't pro-town arguments, of course dependant on how you push them :p Still, it came after your 'almost confession' :p

[SomeRandomGuy]

Actually, the policy stems from not wanting to give information about books in a series if I'm not reading the first book in said series, unless the person's already read up to that point and doesn't have the recent book.

Actually, I have a very similar policy, mostly with tv shows and games though. My partner is always asking me questions about the outcomes if it's a show i've watched and am showing him - he was particularly bad with death note on this making guesses and trying to get an answer out of me, but i refuse. I hate spoiling things like that for someone, even when they've asked.

[SomeRandomGuy]

If things were just a little different voided, i'd really like to not have to see you lynched, but it's looking like we're going to have to.

Anyway, scum played a good game, I enjoyed it, you had us pretty confused at times i was very stupid for lynching BB and not Bv but we made it in the end.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Well, allow me, the Vanilla townie to put an end to this.

Verydark - the reason i wanted you jailkeeped was because i was more suspicious of Voided, being a VT and unable to investigate his kill is what confirms things.

VOTE: Voidedmafia

[SomeRandomGuy]

I don't like lying as town at all but i had the feeling going into LYLO that we had only one PR, I wanted to shut down the possibility of scum claiming it right away, when they didn't it seemed best that i claimed cop, even if i had have been caught i though i was in an ok position to talk myself out of it, the fact toasty protected me the night previous made my claim very easy, i had only to make up one result and thankfully not having pushed on toasty too much allowed for that and the suspicion on him from day 1 led to a perfect reason to say i investigated him.

Anyway, scum played a good game, it's funny that a voided / Bv team was mentioned quite a lot of times, yet it never got acted on, i feel really stupid for hammering BB but hey it happens.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Nice feedback Toasty and thanks.

I think for me I need to work on getting my suspicions right, most of the game i spent going after the wrong people ^_^

To add to the comments on BB: If you had started the way you got toward the mid / end of the game you'd have likely avoided a lot of the situations you were in, deffinite upping of your game as the time went on, which is good

[SomeRandomGuy]

I was indeed waiting for something to be said regarding my fake claim, it was risky, I had even asked Dry to confirm when the results were given (eg. at the end of the night phase or during) and got told during, which of course made it much more risky. had you not shot and killed Toasty or myself that night phase I had planned to come clean, i''d have confirmed myself as i could have shot TT that night and pretended to get a guilty on you and won if i were indeed scum. It's why i was trying to talk you into a confession. Liklihood is even without a kill you'd have been lynched anyway even though i would not have given a fake result. I'd just say: Don't consider it over until the last second.

Anyway thanks for the feedback guys! and i really enjoyed this game