camn's temperamental - Mini 1232 - GAME OVER

[kanyeknowsbest]

Confirm.

[kanyeknowsbest]

Please keep it to just confirmations like camn requested. Thank you.

[kanyeknowsbest]

Hello everyone! :D

I'd like to ask everyone a few questions just to learn a bit about everyone's experience and philosophy. Now this isn't required, but I'd appreciate it and it'll help me read you earlier.

1 -

Experience

- What is your prior experience with Mafia? How many games have you played at Mafiascum? How many games have you played elsewhere?
2 -

Philosophy

- If you were a cop and got a guilty on night one, would you out the guilty that day(not knowing if there is any protection of course) or would you try to get more scum before outing?

I'll give my philosophy after I see some of yours.

1. I have played something like 8 or 10 games. I haven't really been keeping track.
2. Both schools of thought, claiming vs not claiming, have some merit. I think it is largely circumstantial and situation specific though: there are many factors to consider when deciding to claim immediately or claim at a later date. For recent discussion on this topic please see this thread. Additionally, remember that there is usually basic discussion on these topics in the wiki.

[kanyeknowsbest]

I believe that I understood the question, and I definitely support its discourse.

You should not be so quick to make assumptions though. Not all of your town peers will feel too comfortable even in random voting stage. While it is ideal that all town should be willing to play optimally and be unconcerned with their lynch if it promotes the town win condition, that is not always the case. Some players will be anxious about "fitting in" with their fellow town regardless of whether they are scum or not. Now, I don't think this is a poor angle to pursue in ferreting out players with exceptional win cons, but please keep in mind that this is a diverse setting.

[kanyeknowsbest]

In what situation would the lynch of a town member promote the town win condition? -implosion

I guess I misspoke, thank you for catching that. What I meant to say, and was referring to, was the nature in which a town member will win in the end with town, even if they are lynched. Some players will, instead of trying to catch scum, focus primarily on preventing their own lynch.

[kanyeknowsbest]

@Fishy that is a very weak reason to believe scum have day talk also (and I do realize the irony as I am committing the same crime right now) I don't like that you skipped RVS and immediatly jumped into a serious vote and then started either guessing about something only scum would know for sure and sticking by it so passionately this early on. For that Vote Fishy

Vote: Lurconis

There is nothing wrong with skipping the random voting stage if you have a read. This is the entire point of the random voting stage, creating information from which you can start to form reads and move the game along. Clinging to the random voting stage is not in the best interests of town.

[kanyeknowsbest]

That is fine however his was the first post of the game his read came from who confirmed last. I will gladly remove my vote if he can provide meta that he does that normally but from the two previous games of his I checked his first vote was not for who confirmed last.

And what does it matter which post a player breaks random vote stage in?

[kanyeknowsbest]

Parama gets a gold star.

Unvote

Vote: BBmolla

It wasn't that serious of a vote. It was to put some pressure on Fishy, which clearly is already being done by four others.

Parama are you willing to bet on your mother's life right now that I am scum? Why or why not?

What you did is called "relieving pressure." When votes start leaving the wagon, others are less likely to join it and those already on it are more likely to leave. If you believe someone is scum and unvote them before L-1 (and only then because you want to prevent a quicklynch) you will quickly be toppling their wagon and destroying your credibility.

Also, please leave Parama's mother out of discourse unrelated to her. This is an underhanded bluff that has no place in this class.

--quote tag fixed

[kanyeknowsbest]

Here's a fine example of what happens when you do not actually read your message after pressing preview.

[kanyeknowsbest]

I believe that it should remain as is. It would be pretty bad for me to wipe away an example of what not to do and prevent all of you from learning from my mistake.

[kanyeknowsbest]

Maybe after everyone has taken note of it. You are taking notes, aren't you?

[kanyeknowsbest]

note to self: kanye is insane

That's not a very polite thing to say.

[kanyeknowsbest]

And you know it.

[kanyeknowsbest]

hi parama are you scum

-implosion

Please use the term "person with an exceptional win condition." I encourage you to embrace diversity in your entire life, but it is mandatory that you do so in here.

[kanyeknowsbest]

The best part about the new quote system is highlighting the specific parts you want to quote, like so:

This seems to be saying "your scumtell isn't good, but carry on scumhunting based on it". I just don't see what this was supposed to achieve other than a post that looks like content.

That is not at all what I was doing. I was trying to explore why it is a subjective tell. You can definitely catch scum by seeing who is having trouble fitting in during the random voting stage, but I wished to highlight for BBmolla why you have to take care in using that tell.

And I agree with you on Lurconis, but think BBmolla might be a better candidate at this time.

[kanyeknowsbest]

Zang, please see me after class. That post of yours could have been a lot better.

[kanyeknowsbest]

I'm liking the fact that we apparently have plenty of wall-posters this game. It generally indicates more activity, which I like. The bad part is they tend to cross many subjects, so it makes piecing things together a little harder.

This is a bit of a misconception. Wall posting is not necessarily a good thing, nor does the lack of wall posting indicate a lack of activity. It would really make grading your posts a lot easier if you kept them under 500 words each.

[kanyeknowsbest]

@Kanye Why do you feel the need to act like a teacher when we are all students in Camns class.

Have you ever heard of a strategy called team teaching? Considering the especially diverse nature and needs of this classroom, I can fully understand why Ms. Camn would desire to employ such a strategy and give my full support to her decision.

[kanyeknowsbest]

Since when? I've been in several games with and without it.

I have personally yet to see a game where pregame talk was not allowed, and your claim is a bit surprising to me.

Yes, but it's not a scumtell to try and prevent a mislynch.

It can be, but it is a very subjective thing and is dependent on whether it feels like the one performing this tell

knows

that it is a mislynch or just

believes

it is a mislynch.

[kanyeknowsbest]

I didn't think your thinking on your vote was about RVS, your thinking about your vote before placing it suggest anything but RVS. I voted because I feel you contradicted your self by saying "I'm going to run the numbers" and then coming back and not voting. It seemed like you were trying to delay placing a vote to avoid having analysis on you so you could sort of sneak by.

You realize that this game is a game filled with "character" based post restrictions right? The fact that you keep harping on a post restriction like it is indicative of an exceptional win condition is, well, indicative of you having an exceptional win condition.

Basically I am happy with either a BBmolla or Lurconis lynch today. And I'm sorry, but there will be NO extra credit points given for any claim.

[kanyeknowsbest]

Chair, how does this claim affect your read on BBmolla's alignment?

[kanyeknowsbest]

It looks like I'm going to have to go back over your IEP and see if I can't get whoever decided you were ready to be mainstreamed to reconsider. The needs of your exceptional win condition simply are not going to be met in this class.

[kanyeknowsbest]

unvote

@Sathoris - Why would you think I assumed you meant RNG. Running the numbers is a common phrase people say when they are going to work something out. I took you saying that as meaning you thought you found something and were going to work it out before placing your vote. When you didn't vote it seemed like scum trying to avoid placing a vote while appearing to scum hunt.
Moving my strongest town read is Zang he seems to make several good points in his posts seems to be reading the thread carefull to try and scum hunt to full potential.
@Fishy - A name cop may be helpful to scum but that is such an easy role to confirm why would we continue to lynch him when we can use him and if as chair says he doesn't help we would know he is scum and would be a safe future lynch as opposed to a mislynch of a PR.
Seems a scum move to want to continue on a lynch of a confirmable PR.
VOTE: FishytheFish

0/100 F
Please see me after class.

[kanyeknowsbest]

I guess this isnt a bad time to do some solid reteaching. Whether or not BBmolla is lying about being a namecop does not matter. He probably is a name cop. But that says absolutely nothing about his alignment. If you thought he had an exceptional win condition before you should still think he has an exceptional win condition. If you think he will be useful to us as a namecop with an exceptional win condition, what in the world would give you that idea? Even if he does not lie to us and gives us accurate results, what good does that accomplish? It is just as likely that scum would be able to use this information for gain as town would, and for him to share it with us he would have to disclose it in the thread here. At that point we might as well just mass name claim (don't do this, theres no point.)

Basically, everyone who just unvoted BBmolla because of his claim needs to explain exactly why they were prepared to lynch him before, but no longer think that he has an exceptional win condition. "Because he is a name cop" is not an acceptable answer on this pop quiz, unless you can also explain how this is useful in any way to town.

[kanyeknowsbest]

"Because he is a name cop" is not an acceptable answer on this pop quiz, unless you can also explain how this is useful in any way to town.

[kanyeknowsbest]

You guys are really letting me down right now. I thought that I taught you better than this. Consider the following:

1. Our posting restriction is based on our role name.
2. Role powers are unrelated to our role name.
3. Some of our posting restrictions should be very obvious to other at this point.
4. Does that not imply, then, that given how we are encouraged to indirectly divulge this information that it should be not provide any benefit to either faction?
5. Given that,

how is a role name cop useful for either town or exceptional alignments?

6. HOW DOES LEAVING AN EXCEPTIONAL WIN CONDITION NAME COP ALIVE PROVIDE ANY BENEFIT TO TOWN?

Until I see something that explains how BBmolla is more likely to be town now, there is no reason to leave him alive.

[kanyeknowsbest]

Yes, a name cop is benefecial to the town as it can confirm other townies and perhaps find the unsavouray names of scum. I already it's less likely to be a scum role (unless he lies about the full power of his role) because a name of someone doesn't tell you as much as it would on the town side. It's a town favoured role.

No. Wrong.

Namecopping does not say anything about the target's alignment. Even if it did, if he has an exceptional win condition he is not obligated to be truthful. Name cop is completely irrelevant and unrelated to alignment.

The only use it can have is catching someone lying about their name. I see zero reason for anyone to do this and I do not believe that students with an exceptional win condition will have a name that reflects that, given how we are encouraged to indirectly claim our name via the posting restriction.

[kanyeknowsbest]

Posts involving the following:

Unvote, Vote: Sathoris

will receive 5 points of extra credit for the rest of the day.

[kanyeknowsbest]

Read #208 again for why I feel that way. Its not even close to being a slip. Thank you for your Sathoris buddy claim though.

Of all of the votes onto and unvotes off of BBmolla, Sathoris' is the worst.

[kanyeknowsbest]

#208.

[kanyeknowsbest]

Why does a role have to be useful to be in the game?

[kanyeknowsbest]

You assumption that a town role must in some way advance the town win condition is a mistaken one.

[kanyeknowsbest]

You don't think its in the interest of those with an exceptional win condition to force a PR to claim? You don't think that they would then be eager to get off of that wagon and attempt to control that PR's night action?

If you'd like to talk about #208, I feel that the list I gave is a very easy to follow breakdown of the logic that leads from point 1 to point 6. Please point out where in that list you find the flaw (Hint, you can't start with the conclusion.)

I'm not sure what you are trying to say about the post that you linked.

[kanyeknowsbest]

You're right that knowing someone's restriction doesn't mean anything about his rolename or ability. And you may be right that your rolename has nothing to do you with your PR. But you cannot confirm or deny that your rolename has nothing to do with your allignement unless you know that the scum name is as innocent sounding as the town names are.

Why have you not pushed for a mass name claim then if you believe it will out scum?

[kanyeknowsbest]

My stance until now has been that BBmolla has an exceptional win condition. Regardless of my opinion, I worded that as such due to people saying "Well sure he might have an exceptional win condition but we can make him work for us!" I can only assume that you also believed he had an exceptional win condition due to you placing him in a position to where he had to claim.

Isn't it obvious. People lie. What stops scum from claiming something that fits their current posting style. Most are ambigious enough to pull it off. No we need the namecop to investigate them so they can't lie.

Yes, so if we plan to use the name cop to catch scum lying, then you need to force them to lie about their name in the first place. This is the only situation in which I feel a name cop will be able to give us any information that relates to alignment, and only if he is town.

[kanyeknowsbest]

Please comment on the reactions to your claim.

[kanyeknowsbest]

My stance until now has been that BBmolla has an exceptional win condition. Regardless of my opinion, I worded that as such due to people saying "Well sure he might have an exceptional win condition but we can make him work for us!" I can only assume that you also believed he had an exceptional win condition due to you placing him in a position to where he had to claim.

You have no basis for saying BBMolla has an exceptional win condition, so why present it huge and bolded as fact in #208. Exceptional win condition is just fancy talk for scum win con, which just means you think he's scum. Which is fair enough, as you said I did put him on L-1 too. But don't present it as reason to lynch him. The matter of fact is:

He acted scummy and it got him to claim. I still think he's scummy too. He may well be scum, but I want to use his ability at least once to see what we get. We don't know enough to dismiss it as useless. It might be our only cop to find mafia in this themed game. I'm not willing to take the risk and lynch him.

He's acting more pro-town now saying the safest way would be to lynch him. I'm not sure he's appealing to any side in the debate because I don't think it will change anybody's mind. So we have a choice. I suggest people express their opinion about him in their next post.
1) Test his namecop on someone scummy and lynch someone else, or
2) Lynch him today and see what tomorrow brings.

Isn't it obvious. People lie. What stops scum from claiming something that fits their current posting style. Most are ambigious enough to pull it off. No we need the namecop to investigate them so they can't lie.

Yes, so if we plan to use the name cop to catch scum lying, then you need to force them to lie about their name in the first place. This is the only situation in which I feel a name cop will be able to give us any information that relates to alignment, and only if he is town.

We only force them to lie about their name if their name is not townish. If it is then the namecop is useless, which leads me to wonder why BB wouldn't just be a VT then. Or BB is lying about what else he can do and he's scum.

It just comes down to this: are you willing to lynch a cop variant who acted summy?

THIS ENTIRE POST. We are lynching Sathoris today kids.

[kanyeknowsbest]

for BBMolla, consider this perspective-
1. Your town you check someone tonight tell us results tomorrow we
lynch you see your town and now have a confirmed townie or confirmed
scum based off your read.
2. Your town your NK’d tonight which confirms you town we have your
reads of today to go off of.
3. Your scum you give us a false read tomorrow we lynch you and your
results are now WIFOM.
4. Your scum or town you read whoever is NK’d so your results are null
at that point.
All 4 situations are better than lynching him today which would give
us no new info. I don’t think he should reveal who he is going to
check as if the target is town that allows scum to nk them and get a
free mislynch with BBMolla tomorrow.
-Copied from a word document, emailed to my phone and posted from
there so please forgive formatting errors as my work blocks the site
so I have to figure out workarounds.

I've failed as a teacher for you to be able to make this post and not see what is wrong with it.

@Zang: You're not even reading anymore, are you? I've explained the things you are taking issue with several times.

[kanyeknowsbest]

The most distressing thing to me is that I know you can't ALL have exceptional win conditions, so some of you must actually believe these things you are saying.

[kanyeknowsbest]

My goal is no longer to convince you of anything Sathoris. My goal is to see you have a date with some rope.

[kanyeknowsbest]

That's a good vote Peregrine, but not really for today. Maybe you should try seeing how it would feel on Sathoris?

[kanyeknowsbest]

My goal is no longer to convince you of anything Sathoris. My goal is to see you have a date with some rope.

I see, but lynching me would mean you'd be following my plan. The same plan you so opposed and decided to vote me for.

You mean leaving BBmolla alive? Yeah, I'm okay with that for now. Hint: its not because he claimed a worthless PR.

[kanyeknowsbest]

Reaction to his claim. There are students with exceptional win conditions (you) eager to not be on his wagon. Whether this is because it would land them on a claimed PR or it was an opportunity to pull back from their bus is up for debate. I've begun to take a shine to the former.

[kanyeknowsbest]

Lurconis you are beyond hope. I'm sorry. Standards be damned, there is no helping you.

[kanyeknowsbest]

too long; didnt read.

Same.

[kanyeknowsbest]

chair, i believe that scum role names will not sound inherently scummy based on my own role name, those that have been revealed either directly or indirectly, and the fact that we are ENCOURAGED BY THE MODERATOR to indirectly share them by adhering to a posting restriction.

[kanyeknowsbest]

Woops, forgot my PR.

[kanyeknowsbest]

Also I'm pretty much in the same boat as you Parama. Its tough for me to actually put any more effort into this game after failing to convince this town of something that I think should be a no brainer.

[kanyeknowsbest]

A scum power role that is useless is also known by the name of "goon." Consider this.

[kanyeknowsbest]

Yes. And a power role that has no use in the game given to a player with an exceptional win condition would essentially be a vanilla mafia member. So arguments that state: "A player with an exceptional win condition can not have a useless role" are flawed.

[kanyeknowsbest]

Lurconis is your role name "Newbie Town?" That's your PR right? Because I don't really think you have an exceptional win condition and I can't think of any other explanation.

[kanyeknowsbest]

Okay.

Unvote, Vote: Chair

Parama, get on this.

[kanyeknowsbest]

You too BBmolla, so we can wifom tomorrow about whether or not you were bussing Chair. It'll be cool.

[kanyeknowsbest]

I'm not sure how I feel about BBmolla anymore, actually. Parama and Fishy are my two strongest town reads, so my decision is based on their interactions with you and your response to the BBmolla claim, regardless of his alignment.

[kanyeknowsbest]

I'll reread him.

[kanyeknowsbest]

Hey Parama, are you town?

[kanyeknowsbest]

I agree with that quote. I don't see how it is relevant to the situation however.

[kanyeknowsbest]

I do not think lynching BBmolla on the fact that there is a counter claimed name cop is a good idea. There is nothing that says we cannot have two name cops. However, that his role name differs is a damning point for me.

Unvote, Vote: BBmolla

[kanyeknowsbest]

Your reasoning is incorrect Twistedspoon. There is nothing wrong with there being two of the same role. Unless the setup explicitly states there cannot be two of the same role then assuming such on day 1 is a poor assumption.

[kanyeknowsbest]

What if it is the opposite? What if Parama is scum and he knows that the scum have scummy rolenames, so he sacrifice himself to lynch the Name Cop. I don't know how likely this is though, Parama is reading town to me.

Mafia have something called a night kill.

[kanyeknowsbest]

Your reasoning is incorrect Twistedspoon. There is nothing wrong with there being two of the same role. Unless the setup explicitly states there cannot be two of the same role then assuming such on day 1 is a poor assumption.

link me to a mini with 2 cops and I'll be convinced and there will be no further objections because I'm not seeing it

Did you know that a name cop and a real cop are two completely different things?

[kanyeknowsbest]

You can't assume protection. Plus there was the dubious nature of his claim. You don't trade one for one in that situation.

[kanyeknowsbest]

Lol, Myers-Briggs.

[kanyeknowsbest]

I am in total agreement with Parama on this point.

[kanyeknowsbest]

^ Regarding: Twistedspoon

[kanyeknowsbest]

Vote: Twistedspoon

[kanyeknowsbest]

Haylen maybe you should take a look at the flips when you get a chance : ]

[kanyeknowsbest]

Also are you Twistedspoon's buddy?

[kanyeknowsbest]

why would you claim that. there was zero chance parama was going to be lynched on the basis of being a second name cop, despite what twistedspoon (the largest wagon) suggested.

[kanyeknowsbest]

Twistedspoon, day two and still vastly overestimating the power of the lowly name cop in a setup where the origin of the names are explained and obvious.

[kanyeknowsbest]

great argument, lynch someone because his role isn't useful. whos got the hammer yall.

[kanyeknowsbest]

unvote

im willing to hear this out.

[kanyeknowsbest]

theres a big difference between hearing him out and deciding were not lynching him today. its entirely provable that the invention portion of his claim is true, unless fishy is also scum (which i doubt.) based on fishys input, we will be able to debate on if we believe this affects twistedspoon's alignment. im not going to write anything off given the suspicions that camn is attempting to jack with meta in this game.

[kanyeknowsbest]

why did you choose fishy to invent?

[kanyeknowsbest]

honestly i buy this claim. a non inventor scum making this claim would claimed one of his buddies as the recipient who would have confirmed it. an inventor scum would have targeted town and would have been much more eager to claim it. the implications of this are either fishy is scum trying to get the town inventor hung (doubtful, i have him as town) or he was roleblocked. there is, of course, the final possibility that both fishy and twistedspoon are scum and fishy is bussing hard. doubtful.

I gave him the invention last night. If it's a nice pro-town invention then all should be well. Scum shouldn't have a role that harms their own wincon

this is of little relevance here but this is an incorrect assumption.

in other news im v/la for the next two days.

will give this more thought when i get back.

[kanyeknowsbest]

i agree scum inventor is 100% possible, but i am feeling he is more likely to be town inventor at this point due to the way he pulled off his claim. ill reread when i get back and reevaluate it then.

[kanyeknowsbest]

I don't want to lynch Twistedspoon today. We can reopen discussion on him tomorrow.

[kanyeknowsbest]

ebwop: Discussion in regards to lynching, that is.

[kanyeknowsbest]

@kanye it seems like there's a difference as to how youre addressing the BB lynch and the TS lynch. i might have missed it, but is there a reason for this? why does TS claim seem town yet BB lynch shouldn't have depended on his claim?

I explained how his claim affected my alignment read on him. I also explained how BB's claim did not affect my alignment read on him. That is the difference.

[kanyeknowsbest]

And I don't agree

at all

on that Lurconis is town because he claimed early. We need more votes on this chap.

Nope, that was a town claim.

[kanyeknowsbest]

And I don't agree

at all

on that Lurconis is town because he claimed early. We need more votes on this chap.

How many scum have you seen claiming power roles when under no pressure and not in massclaim, with no prospect of getting a mislynch out of it?
How many scum

who are also relatively new players

have you seen claiming power roles when under no pressure and not in massclaim, with no prospect of getting a mislynch out of it?
How many town

who are also relatively new players

have you seen claiming power roles when under no pressure and not in massclaim?
For me, the answers to these are 0, 0 and several. Lurc's claim is a crap move, but it is not a scum move.

Read this post again Johhog.

Its not a thing you should do because now Lucronis is a free dead power role unless we have a doctor in the setup or the role blocker is town and manages to block correctly.

[kanyeknowsbest]

Although it does introduce the question of just what is the setup.

We have two watchers, two (useless) name cops and a potential town inventor and roleblocker.

I think its likely at this point that the roleblocker (should Twistedspoon's claim be true) is likely to be scum.

[kanyeknowsbest]

Another thing to consider is that we have double name cop and double watcher so far. Can we also expect double roleblocker and double inventor? It may be too soon to be speculating along these lines.

[kanyeknowsbest]

Oh yeah,

Vote: Haylen

[kanyeknowsbest]

Well, Twisted hasn't provided anything else to help his case, and while I don't want to lose powers, I don't want a no lynch.

Vote: Twisted

He's at L-1 now.

Is this a scum claim?

[kanyeknowsbest]

Yeah, I think Peregrine just volunteered himself to be lynched.

Unvote, Vote: PeregrineV

We'll chat later Haylen, but please don't think that I've forgotten about you~

[kanyeknowsbest]

seriously town. seriously.

[kanyeknowsbest]

the setup was pretty good and i enjoyed it. i really dont think it was scum sided at all, town had every opportunity to win and really threw it away when they ignored peregrines bussing and basically everything haylen had to say. the fact that 90% of posts in the game after haylen died were from scum just really cemented things.

scumtopic pls~~