The Children of Húrin Mafia (GREAT REVIVAL)

[Mastermind of Sin]

Original Roll String: 1d24

1 24-Sided Dice: (1) = 1

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote: Andrius

[Mastermind of Sin]

The first counterwagon that starts on someone voting gandalf, poke me. I'll be down for that.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Fuck, LoL is down.

Unvote, Vote: Furc

[Mastermind of Sin]

Hey, be fair. I gave a reason.

[Mastermind of Sin]

your reason was "i'm going to sheep"
that is not a reason for "this is why i'm voting the person i'm sheeping on"
it was more like im going to be an idiot and proxy my vote to whoever does action A.

Actually, my reason is that I'm voting you cuz LoL is down, and I was feeling Espy-withdrawal.

[Mastermind of Sin]

...and?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Unless...YOU are the lie!

[Mastermind of Sin]

By LoL, Mos and Espy mean League of Legends.

You should join us. (That goes for everyone)

It works better if you give them the correct link.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Unvote, Vote: Katsuki

[Mastermind of Sin]

This game is boring. Can we lynch Katsuki already?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why is Katsuki still alive?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why would Katsuki even be in danger of being lynched?

Cuz he's scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm thinking Gandalf is a failed Jester. Someone kill him tonight.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm thinking Gandalf is a failed Jester. Someone kill him tonight.

If I was a jester, why would I have switched my claim? I was finally starting to build up a wagon.

The pointlessness is intentional. I'd rather not risk potentially voting off everyone on my scumteam but me and then recovering my memories and being absolutely fucked. I'll give opinions, but mostly I'm just trying to stay alive until I get my memories back. I might vote if you need it because we're getting close to deadline, but other than that, don't expect me to be a driving force. I think both of the current wagons are probably scum, if that helps.

Jester-speak.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Also, based on the sample role pm in the OP, you should know exactly whether or not you are mafia, regardless of flavor knowledge.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Also, based on the sample role pm in the OP, you should know exactly whether or not you are mafia, regardless of flavor knowledge.

They're claiming not to know their role at all.

???

[Mastermind of Sin]

Wait, I'm attempting to appear like I'm reading the game? I demand evidence of this accusation!

[Mastermind of Sin]

So much posting that makes my eyes glaze over...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Meh. I don’t have any reason to see Kats or KKB as Town. Sorry, I have only so much room in my heart for players who specifically play useless when possibly Town and that space is currently occupied by my Ellie-Town read and a small bit of MoS maybe Town.

I'm touched.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Mod: Why does Kanye have 7 votes listed but it says he has 5?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm a little worried. I've never seen Furcolow be this verbose and cohesive in his arguments with people. Usually he's on the level of vezok or benmage, from what I've seen. I don't have a scum-meta on Furcolow, though. Can anyone speak to whether he tends to put in more effort when he's scum?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Morgana is stupid either way.












WHAT.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Feysal voting Kanye has given me more reason to keep my vote here for now. Kanye-wagon is bad.

[Mastermind of Sin]

FEYSAL REPLACED KATSU WHO I DON'T THINK IS A RAGEQUITTER AS SCUM.
If anyone can show me contrary meta I'll be onboard though with Feysal's lolflavor and all that.

Someone already proved a contrary meta, I believe. Weren't you reading the thread?

[Mastermind of Sin]

FTR...

I think Katsu is town here. He wouldn't have replaced out as scum.

Um, why? He’s just come off a rather bad string of scum losses where he was killed fairly early. Getting significant heat Day 1 as scum, especially from little ol Me, is certainly something I could see causing scum him to throw up his hands in a tantrum.

--

See above. Having played with Kats face-to-face, this is my intuition about it.

Meh, I don’t buy it. See dram’s latest Large Theme Atomic Mafia and look at DGB. She basically played to her ‘Town meta’ that was supported by ‘face-to-face’ interaction and replaced out under pressure. Tada what do you know … she was scum.

I can understand your stance but don’t buy it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

hey mos did you know that dgb and katsuki are, in fact, two different people?

ludi, im definitely opposed to my lynch, sorry if that wasnt clear!

hey kkb did you know that the first and second quotes of that post were, in fact, about two different people?

[Mastermind of Sin]

dunno. Still waiting on someone to answer my meta question about Furc.

[Mastermind of Sin]

In the games I've seen, yes. But I've only seen him in like two other games, both as town I believe.

[Mastermind of Sin]

That and in the last week since I asked that question, I've spent 3 days on V/LA followed by my first 3 days in a new job, during which I came down with something and spent 14 hours sleeping yesterday, from the time I came home from work until the time I had to get up and leave again. So yea...haven't really had much time to do a lot of research. Just sayin'.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Like Feysal.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't take much stock in people claiming self-meta, mostly because everyone gives me shit for it when I do the same. I don't see any point in returning the favor.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm not really sure why we're lynching PeregrineV instead of Feysal.

[Mastermind of Sin]

V/LA the next 2 days or so. Not voting PeregrineV.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why exactly did we lynch PeregrineV yesterday? wtf...

Vote: Feysal

[Mastermind of Sin]

MOS post 439 holds gandalf (and implicitly andrius) to an unreasonable standard of role PM clarity for a bastard game. Besides, why bother arguing that a player is a jester?

Because if a player is a jester, we *don't* want to lynch them. Since gandalf had exhibited jester signs, we were better off having a vig NK him. Which apparently Feysal failed to do.

[Mastermind of Sin]

How do you know that, Furc?

[Mastermind of Sin]

o.O wtf?

[Mastermind of Sin]

@Herodotus: My point is that I have no inclination to help a third-party jester win when we can be lynching scum instead. I trust myself to be able to find scum better than I trust random vig X who I don't know. If I have to choose whether to use a town lynch to help a jester win or a town vig kill to make a jester lose, I'm going to choose the one that gives us a better chance of getting scum with the other death and has the added bonus of not letting a jester win when they have failed to fool us and thus don't deserve the win.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm starting to question the reliability of MoI's information at this point... -.-

[Mastermind of Sin]

Like he said earlier what reason does he have to lie?

What reason does he have not to? There is no way we can confirm his information...even if he does have contact with the Seraphs, it's hella easy to just feed us some verifiable truths and then lie through his teeth about other things. I'm taking it with a grain of salt, especially since the existence of the Seraphs have absolutely no relevance to me right now. I can't kill them, so I don't really care which ones are on which side. Talking about Seraph alignment is just a really good way to avoid talking about something that truly matters, like which of the people we can actually lynch might be scum.

To conclude, I don't know if MoI is scum or not, but I'm certainly not going to sheep to whatever he's saying like it's the gospel.

[Mastermind of Sin]

@Mas: Is that correct? Do you think either of them is groupscum? Are there any people you believe to be groupscum?

I'm assuming that this is a typo and that you meant to direct these questions to me.

I'm honestly not sure what to think of their claims just yet. Claiming third party doesn't really make someone actually third party, there are plenty of gambits out there. However, claiming third party as town is retardedly bad, as evidenced by the recently concluded Mafiascum Fantasy Camp game (thanks, GreyICE). Most people have the common sense to avoid something that idiotic, so I'm left to conclude that they are either third party or scum. Given that conclusion and the fact that Feysal has a killing role, I'm more than content to see him hang.

No, I haven't seen any other tells jump out at me so far. Otherwise I would have mentioned it, obviously.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Again … what reason do I have to make up anything. If I did either Seraph could easily invite someone else into the QT who could directly refute my statements. This is once again either stupid or scummy paranoia.

How do we know the Seraphs could do that?

Oh wait, cuz you told us they could. -.-

Again, I'm not saying you're obvscum or anything, I just don't feel like it's prudent to take everything you say as face value until I have good reason to. I feel like you're just distracting us away from actually lynching scum at this point, whether or not you intend to.

quote="In post 1024 , Herodotus"]No typo, Mastermind of Sin, I just left off some letters.

Finding a third party and having no suspects beyond that isn't a way to win as town. Suppose Feysal is the lynch; what next?[/quote]

For less confusion, you're better off using MoS instead of Mas when addressing me. I would have thought you were talking to someone else if you hadn't just been talking about me in the sentence before.

I'm going to cross that bridge when I come to it. It's not like I'm not looking, I just haven't seen anyone else do something that jumped out at me as scummy yet. The game is still young, and I generally take time to ramp up to the point where I have a multitude of solid reads on people, at least in a large game anyway.

[Mastermind of Sin]

How do we know the Seraphs could do that?

Oh wait, cuz you told us they could. -.-

Oh, so you think there is any likelihood that the Seraphs don’t have a means to actively contact Town? Please explain to me why you would think that.

I have no idea what the Seraphs can do.

I feel like you're just distracting us away from actually lynching scum at this point, whether or not you intend to.

Actually … that’s exactly what you are doing. You’ve parked your vote on Feysal (which isn’t a bad thing) and pretty much done no significant scum-hunting outside of him today.

You talked about Jester policy and diverted into this little sidebar about the Seraphs.

Wait, so basically you're blaming me for responding to the people who have endlessly asked me questions regarding these two topics? I made one comment on each and left them well enough alone (the Jester thing because I simply wanted to make it clear why I wasn't trying to lynch him, and the Seraph thing because I wanted to make sure people weren't sheeping blindly like idiots). You people brought them back up and won't stop talking about them.

[Mastermind of Sin]

This Kanye wagon is feeling increasingly like the obvtownretardedwagon on Palisade in [REDACTED].

[Mastermind of Sin]

I have no idea what the Seraphs can do.

Did you not play in / read / research any of the other games with the Seraph mechanic (Vi’s MoHo games)?

Did you not play in / read / research the signup thread for this game?

Wait, so basically you're blaming me for responding to the people who have endlessly asked me questions regarding these two topics?

No, I’m blaming you for going out of your way to make non-scumhunting avenues of discussion as opposed to scum-hunting. You were the one who broached the paranioa “maybe MoI is making it all up” line of discussion.

It's not going out of my way to say things that need to be brought up. That doesn't mean I want to spend all my time in this game arguing about them. Persistence is the problem here, and that wasn't remotely my fault. Unless you're suggesting that I should have simply ignored the questions being directed at me so you could attack me for doing so?

Meanwhile once again you’ve done no significant scum-hunting today. Outside Feysal I have no idea who you suspect.

Me neither, obviously, or I would have said something by now.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Did you not play in / read / research the signup thread for this game?

Ok, so not willing to answer the question and attempt to deflect noted. Why is that?

I *did* answer the question. I didn't deflect at all.

Were you or were you not aware of how Seraphs have operated in the past games?

See above.

It's not going out of my way to say things that need to be brought up. That doesn't mean I want to spend all my time in this game arguing about them. Persistence is the problem here, and that wasn't remotely my fault. Unless you're suggesting that I should have simply ignored the questions being directed at me so you could attack me for doing so?

The huge issue I have is that you aren’t bringing up / discussing anything that is remotely scum-hunting related. Jester talk is all game theory and your “I don’t think we should trust MoI’s info” is at worst pointless fluff (since you can’t provide a reasonable reason why I’d stand to gain anything by doing so) and at worst scum seeking to undermine the information coming into thread.

1) Why do you think game theory is unimportant? Game theory is the very thing that drives logical mafia play, and it's an integral part of the game. It's ridiculous that you would try to say we should ignore game theory or that discussing it is scummy. Talking about game theory in a way that does not apply to your reads is scummy. Game theory itself is not inherently scummy. The possibility that gandalf was a jester has actually implications on how I read him and handled that situation. If I didn't think he was a jester, I would have tried to lynch him. My comments regarding the jester business went directly to explaining why I was not voting him and did not think he was a good lynch.

2) How do you not understand what a person stands to gain by having everyone sheep the hell out of them all game? God, I wish IS was here so he could talk some sense into you people.

Me neither, obviously, or I would have said something by now.

Not buying it. Lack of scum-hunting is 100% due to you.

Into the scum-pool with you MoS ....

What, you expect me to make something up to please you? Lawl.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Also, MoS, who had gained from ACTING like a jester in your mind? Gandalf.
What if he just has the wool pulled over your eyes in an epic WIFOM?

What does he stand to gain by getting himself killed?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Also, MoS, who had gained from ACTING like a jester in your mind? Gandalf.
What if he just has the wool pulled over your eyes in an epic WIFOM?

What does he stand to gain by getting himself killed?

Stop being dumb.

Serious questions deserve serious answers. Stop being a troll.

I *did* answer the question. I didn't deflect at all.

No, answering the question actually entails saying “Yes, I did or no I did not have any experience / research how Seraphs worked in MoHO, etc.”.

What you did was be Katsuki like. Great work …

At this point I’m going to assume your stance doesn’t flow from ignorance. Thus it is scummy.

Are you seriously THAT dense/unmotivated?

1) Why do you think game theory is unimportant? Game theory is the very thing that drives logical mafia play, and it's an integral part of the game. It's ridiculous that you would try to say we should ignore game theory or that discussing it is scummy. Talking about game theory in a way that does not apply to your reads is scummy. Game theory itself is not inherently scummy. The possibility that gandalf was a jester has actually implications on how I read him and handled that situation. If I didn't think he was a jester, I would have tried to lynch him. My comments regarding the jester business went directly to explaining why I was not voting him and did not think he was a good lynch.

Game theory talk is absolutely fluff. Sorry, it is. You should be discussing why particular players are scummy for their actions, not arguing whether handling Gandalf in the manner you did is justified based on your take on Jester handling Game Theory.

Fact

– in a large theme the odds of a Jester ending the game are pretty much non-existant. (See Box Mafia for a recent example). So Jester speculation in the context of a Non-game ending Jester is pointless. If someone plays scummy you lynch them. Even if they are a Jester they aren’t going to help catch scum and lynching them prevents their hanging around to be a willing mislynch in LYLO. Vigging works to but specifically singling Gandalf out to not be hung but vigged was an exercise in non-Town helpfulness.

Fact #1

- THIS IS A BASTARD GAME.

Fact #2

- It is always optimal play to vig a jester rather than lynching them. Why the hell would you give someone the satisfaction of winning when they aren't town-aligned? That's retarded.

2) How do you not understand what a person stands to gain by having everyone sheep the hell out of them all game? God, I wish IS was here so he could talk some sense into you people.

This is basically fear-mongering. No-one is even sheeping me as evidenced by the general unwillingness to hang Feysal. All I am doing is providing information for Town to use.

1) Sheeping is not limited to who you choose to vote. People are sheeping you by blindly believing any information you put forth. Do you deny it?
2) Hilariously enough, I'm voting Feysal. xD But that's because it's a good lynch and has nothing to do with anything you've said.

What, you expect me to make something up to please you? Lawl.

No Mr. Bond I expect you to die … [/off movie quote]

Seriously if you were Town you’d be scum-hunting (or should be). All you are doing is basically active lurking. Please continue to do so as it will making hanging you in the coming days much easier.

Please choose your personal definition of scumhunting:

1) Actively watching for scumtells and noting them down for personal reference.
2) Claiming people are scummy in the game thread.
3) Actively watching for scumtells and noting them down, and then sharing them with the town in thread.

Depending on your answer, I'll have a response for the above statement.

[Mastermind of Sin]

No one was talking to you...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Cuz kanye is stupid.

[Mastermind of Sin]

EBWOP: Ooba's last post gave me good vibes, minus the bit about Kanye needing to be lynched. I'm glad I'm not the only sane person in this game.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Are you seriously THAT dense/unmotivated?

Mafia is a game about information exchange to find scum. If you want to play “Captain Annoying” by not directly answering questions that’s not my issue. I’m not going back to look at the fricking sign-up thread once the game has started. True fact. It's not the game thread ... this is.

You could have just said “Nope, no idea” in the first place. But you chose to take the route least helpful to Town. If you are Town you don’t understand to be useful.

Again, I’ll just assume you are scum since I’d have figured by now you might have figured that out (since you joined in 2004).

I don't negotiate with

terrorists

idiots.

Fact #1 - THIS IS A BASTARD GAME.
Fact #2 - It is always optimal play to vig a jester rather than lynching them. Why the hell would you give someone the satisfaction of winning when they aren't town-aligned? That's retarded.

Your first fact is irrelevant. This is a LARGE THEME GAME. I’m going to assume that Plum is a competent mod (history shows she is) and wouldn’t flush away the hard work she put into the game with an end-gaming Jester.

The second fact is again irrelevant. Your Jester speculation is pointless tail-chasing. If you think someone is scummy you lynch them. Worrying more about depriving someone of some secondary pride points as opposed to actively worrying about lynching scum is at best foolish and probably scummy.

And it is funny that you are pushing the “Must Vig Jester” angle so hard while voting for Feysal who appears to be the closest thing in the game to a Vig. I find those competing stances to be scummy.

Where did I say that a Jester would end the game? Stop putting words in my mouth. I'm actively worrying about lynching scum, which is why I chose NOT to lynch Gandalf, who was more likely jester than scum.

Feysal clearly doesn't have the interests of the town at heart, since he did NOT kill Gandalf last night and instead (supposedly) tried to kill Furcolow just because Furc asked him to. He's scum, and there's no way I trust him to kill who he's supposed to.

Please choose your personal definition of scumhunting:

Nice way to attempt to limit the definitions to your choosing.

You are doing nothing in thread that reflects that you are actively looking for scum. Your “I don’t know who is scum” statement confirms this in my mind. Thus you are playing much more towards a scum wincon than a Town wincon.

You're more than welcome to define scumhunting in your own words. I just assumed that there would be no question as to which of those options was the correct answer. Nice deflection, though.

Now

who's being difficult?

--

- To consider MoI "confirmed" town based on this info (I'm looking at WoW) is wrong because this is all he's given us

Aside from the fact that you ignored the fact I delivered Feysal from the QT (as non-Town) this is rather pointless.

My Towniness should be judged completely apart for the Seraphim QT. It should be judged based on the rest of my play.

This whole portion of your post reads much like weak undermining I saw from MoS.

LoL, I love how MoI is just OMGUSing everyone who questions him now. Kid needs to get a grip and realize that we're all not sheep here.

In other news, this Kanye wagon has gone on long enough. This wagon can't be entirely scum-driven, which is a sad realization for those who are town, but let's look at a few exceptionally suspect players.

Wraith's case on Kanye is based on weak reasoning from the beginning of the game, and he hasn't bothered to expand on his suspicion of Kanye since, instead just saying he's still the "strongest scumread" and continually pushing his lynch.

Additionally, Ellibereth's reasoning for being on the Kanye wagon was "kanye was BIG SUSPECT or something". Didn't even bother to provide his own reasoning or agree with anything put forward by someone else, only joined the wagon because other people said Kanye was scummy.

Mockingjaye has almost singularly been focused on Kanye for the entire game. Her posts have been very verbose, but if you can stop your eyes from glazing over and actually look at the details, it's nearly all about Kanye. That's a hell of a lot of posting just about one player being scum. It's either tunnel vision or an attempt to look like she's contributing a lot without actually commenting on anything else that's going on in the game. (She made a brief comment on Gandalf/Andrius, hasn't said anything about MoI, and made a short argument in favor of keeping Feysal alive that actually made no sense because she's trusting a third party player to correctly report their wincon rather than just make one up that will please the town!)

In order of scumminess, I'm thinking Ellibereth > Wraith > Mockingjaye, although it's close enough that I could see switching the first two.

With the Feysal wagon sadly stalled in favor of lynching Kanye, let's try a new tact for now.

Unvote, Vote: Ellibereth

[Mastermind of Sin]

Maybe it's been a while since I've played with VitR (have we ever actually been in a game together?), but I'm not getting a scum feel from him. Not sure where those reads are coming from.
'
Also, just remembered that Feysal replaced Katsuki, and a ton of people were claiming that slot was town because Katsuki replaced out in "frustration". Y'all can suck on that one, bitches.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Are you on crack? Feysal has already claimed HIMSELF that he's not town...and I don't think this is another GreyICE ala UPick.

[Mastermind of Sin]

And Feysal is NOT mafia.

I don't think anyone's claiming this, are they?

@MoS: Why not MoI from the kanye wagon?

I didn't realize he was actually on the wagon, I was looking at the last VC. Even so, I'm still not convinced that MoI isn't just retarded. Just because I don't trust his Seraph thing 100% does NOT mean that I think he's definitely lying. I'm just making it clear that I'm taking everything with a grain of salt. It *is* interesting that MoI is wigging out so much over a little healthy distrust, but I haven't seen enough scumtells to put MoI anywhere near the top of my list, though.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Wait, MoI thinks he's the first one to realize Feysal/Katsuki was anti-town? LMAO...someone needs to check the votecounts from Day 1.

[Mastermind of Sin]

That's the definition of not scum...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Where did I say that a Jester would end the game? Stop putting words in my mouth. I'm actively worrying about lynching scum, which is why I chose NOT to lynch Gandalf, who was more likely jester than scum.

You never said anything of the sort. You apparently aren’t comprehending the point. A Jester ending the game is the ONLY reason to give the possibility of a Jester any thought what-so-ever. You find someone playing scummy … you lynch them.

I oppose all non-town win conditions by policy when I am town. It's as simple as that.

Feysal clearly doesn't have the interests of the town at heart, since he did NOT kill Gandalf last night and instead (supposedly) tried to kill Furcolow just because Furc asked him to. He's scum, and there's no way I trust him to kill who he's supposed to.

Did Feysal call Gandalf scum? If not your desire to see Gandalf NKed doesn’t really factor into the scenario. I personally would have shot any number of players (I can think of at least 5 off-hand) before even considering Gandalf.

And yet you're the one telling me that I should consider Feysal a vig to be used to kill Gandalf...you're contradicting yourself now.

LoL, I love how MoI is just OMGUSing everyone who questions him now.

Kid needs to get a grip

and realize that we're all not sheep here.

Oh, I’m sorry … I didn’t know I wasn’t allowed to call your scummy play out because your scummy posts happened to be directed at me. Pointless reliance on outdated Wikitells noted.

I was more referring to Ooba than myself, but your avoidance of this pattern is noted.

And the bolded is LOL indeed. News flash Tex – I guarantee if one of us is a ‘kid’ it’s you.

But since you need apparently a lesson in why undermining is an effective and classic scum move I’ll explain it to you.

Town has not reason to attach players they don’t think are scummy in a manner. Or at least competent Town doesn’t anyway.

Scum, however, when faced with a difficult target (aka someone who generally isn’t considered scummy for their play) they have to go the undermining route. That’s the route where scum don’t call someone scummy and instead resort to rhetoric. Here are some of the examples of you doing exactly that …

I don't negotiate with terroristsidiots.

I'm still not convinced that MoI isn't just retarded.

It’s straight from the playbook of politician everywhere … when you can’t actually attack your opponents record then demonize them.

Yup, everyone who disagrees with MoS has to be mentally challenged.

Fail. But I appreciate that you’ve made it easier to pick you out from the rest of the non-scum hunters as scum. In fact have a vote … you earned it!

UNVOTE: Kayne
VOTE: MoS

So basically you think I'm scum because you can't handle being insulted. Got it,

kid

.

Are you on crack? Feysal has already claimed HIMSELF that he's not town...and I don't think this is another GreyICE ala UPick.

So you think that Feysal is scum. Is Furcolow scum with him? If not why would Furc lie about being targetted?

And do you think Chrono was some sort of Vig / SK shot then? Do you think we are in Multi-scum?

I need to see how these stances make sense in conjunction with the game state as we know it currently.

I have no idea what the scum setup is. We could be dealing with multiple scumgroups, and/or we could have any number of SKs. I have no evidence to allow me to speculate on any of those questions. All I know is that Feysal is acting scummy and has actively claimed to be scum (with the supposed caveat that he can still win with the town, which is super lolz). I don't see how people can't understand this.

[Mastermind of Sin]

And it is funny that you are pushing the “Must Vig Jester” angle so hard while voting for Feysal who appears to be the closest thing in the game to a Vig. I find those competing stances to be scummy.

Feysal clearly doesn't have the interests of the town at heart, since he did NOT kill Gandalf last night and instead (supposedly) tried to kill Furcolow just because Furc asked him to. He's scum, and there's no way I trust him to kill who he's supposed to.

Did Feysal call Gandalf scum? If not your desire to see Gandalf NKed doesn’t really factor into the scenario. I personally would have shot any number of players (I can think of at least 5 off-hand) before even considering Gandalf.

And yet you're the one telling me that I should consider Feysal a vig to be used to kill Gandalf...you're contradicting yourself now.

Absolute lie. Where have I EVER advocated keeping Feysal alive and directing his shots? Please find me where that happened. Because it didn’t. And you can't. More non-scum hunting and lying on your part. Nice.

Oh yes, now you're going to try to backtrack out of this one by saying

you

never advocated directing Feysal's shots yourself...and yet here you are, attacking me for not trusting Feysal to vig Gandalf and calling that a contradiction. I'll quote it again for you in case you're blind:

And it is funny that you are pushing the “Must Vig Jester” angle so hard while voting for Feysal who appears to be the closest thing in the game to a Vig. I find those competing stances to be scummy.

And it is funny that you are pushing the “Must Vig Jester” angle so hard while voting for Feysal who appears to be the closest thing in the game to a Vig. I find those competing stances to be scummy.

And it is funny that you are pushing the “Must Vig Jester” angle so hard while voting for Feysal who appears to be the closest thing in the game to a Vig. I find those competing stances to be scummy.

And it is funny that you are pushing the “Must Vig Jester” angle so hard while voting for Feysal who appears to be the closest thing in the game to a Vig. I find those competing stances to be scummy.

Busted.

[Mastermind of Sin]

You need to pick up some reading comprehension skills, MoI...

Oh yes, now you're going to try to backtrack out of this one by saying you never advocated directing Feysal's shots yourself...and yet here you are, attacking me for not trusting Feysal to vig Gandalf and calling that a contradiction.

Read that again, especially the second part. I'm not saying that

you

personally want Feysal to be kept alive and directed. I'm saying that you ATTACKED me for NOT wanting Feysal kept alive by saying that

I

should want Feysal to kill Gandalf because he's "the closest thing in the game to a Vig", and then proceeded to argue AGAINST that very attack by claiming that Feysal doesn't think Gandalf is scum and thus can't be expected to vig him.

You are contradicting yourself by holding me to a standard where

I

am supposed to take the stance of using Feysal as a vig to kill Gandalf even though we

both

agree that Feysal will not be convinced to kill Gandalf. Your questioning of my stances involved a clear logical contradiction.

Let me spell it out even more clearly:

MoS Stance #1:

Gandalf is likely a jester and should be vigged.

MoS Stance #2/MoI Stance #1:

Feysal is scum and cannot be trusted to kill the people we want dead, so he needs to die.

MoI Stance #2:

MoS should not want Feysal dead because he's the closest thing we have to a vig.

MoS Stance #3:

MoI's Stance #2 completely contradicts the agreed upon MoS Stance #2/MoI Stance #1. If MoS believes that Feysal cannot be trusted to kill Gandalf (or anyone else we the town thinks is scum, for that matter), there is no reason for him to take the stance that Feysal should be kept alive and directed. Thus, MoI Stance #2 is logically invalid and contradictory.

Now that we've solved that mystery, let's get back to doing something productive. Someone on the Kanye wagon is scum, if not multiple people. Let's find them and hunt them down, preferably starting with Ellibereth.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS, what is your read on MoI?

Use of terms like "busted" make me think you think he is scum, but your previous post does not.

-Amrun

Read: 25% scum, 25% town, 50% idiot. 100% not a lynch target anytime soon.

I used the term busted because he either does not understand what he's talking about or he was purposefully unwilling to abase himself after I caught him on the contradiction. Some players are simply stubborn, however, and that's how they react when they mess up, even if they're town. My previous experience with MoI makes me want to put him in that category, which unfortunately makes it hard to tell if he's scum.

1. I think Kanye is scum, so yes, I've posted a lot about him. I have also discussed several others who I think are scum, too, but you either didn’t read my posts or are deliberately ignoring what I said about Empking, Espeonage, and S&M. (The comments about Pere and Feysal obviously don’t matter much anymore.) If you want to know WHY I think he's scum, go read my posts again, then read his responses to my questions to him, if you can find them. He skated around a couple when pressed more than once and flat out ignored most of them.

I got the impression that most of your scum reads were based around the conclusion that Kanye was scum (ie, you were looking for his scumbuddies and trying to link them). That's all fine and well, but that's what I meant by saying that nearly all of your posts have been about Kanye. If you're right about Kanye being scum (which I don't think you are), then you've done a lot of work in the right direction. However, until we find out Kanye's alignment for sure, it behooves you to look for scum from different angles than that singular conclusion.

2. I don’t generally discuss null/town reads unless asked about someone specifically, which is the reason I haven’t discussed MoI. If he hits my top five list, you'll know. That's something you wouldn't know about me necessarily, so I can see you making a comment that I've only talked about a handful of people. HOWEVER, I haven’t discussed a lot of people, including you, so why does it concern you that I haven’t specifically talked about MoI?

It's not that I'm worried about you giving reads on MoI. However, if we were to make a list of major topics that have come up in this game, it'd go something like this (no particular order):

- Gandalf's claim + Andrius' claim
- Kanye
- Feysal + subsequent claim
- Furcolow + Feysal third party-ness and connection
- MoI having contact with the Seraphs
- Why the fuck was PeregrineV lynched?

There are other more minor topics, but I'd say that covers *most* of the information that has come out in this thread so far (Disclaimer: just working off the top of my head here). I found it somewhat significant that there were major topics on which you had not yet commented on, including MoI.

3. I said there was no reason to kill Feysal today. Actually lynching a mafia member would be more beneficial than outright lynching a third player today. If he had been outed on D3 or 4, and we had managed to also lynch a mafia member, then I wouldn’t necessarily advocate keeping him alive any longer. As it happens, it’s D2, and there was only one kill last night, so we’re in a pretty good position numbers-wise, so why not chain his kill?

I don't trust him to kill scum, and now that I think of it, I generally don't approve of town-directed vigs anyway. I approve of me-directed vigs (obviously), but my relatively long experience on this site has told me that publicly announcing a vig's target in-thread usually has bad consequences (even if the town can agree on a target, that requires me to put faith in the town's ability to correctly choose a target...something that I rarely have faith in, as indicated my forum title). And that's without the extra caveat that Feysal is not aligned with the town, and so can't be trusted to make such decisions on his own without being completely directed by the town. There's also the theoretical-but-unlikely scenario that Feysal is mafia who claimed third party as a gambit, so if we ever directed him to kill an actual scumbuddy he'd just claim something went wrong with the kill. It's too early to speculate on all the possible scenarios with what little evidence we have, but suffice it to say that I don't see a reason to keep one anti-town players alive just on the offchance that we *might* catch a different one today.

If you really read my last post, you would also know that I was the SK in the last game I was in, and I argued for the same thing when we were caught (we were a hydra). In that game, our role was to kill all the male Olympians and then we would win and leave the game. Therefore we could have won with the town, since there were also female Olympians. The SK from Plum's first

LOTR

game last year was also able to win with the town. Given these two examples, I'm not trigger-happy with SKs this early in the game. There's a decent chance that he's lying about his wincon, but even so, I still don't want to lynch him today. It has nothing to do with trusting him or not; it has to do with town having some measure of power over a kill while we try to flip scum and figure out some of the other mechanics of the game.

4. Talking down to people isn't helping your argument. Just saying.

___

Right now I still want to lynch Kanye. I don't like that the wagons are stalled, again, and that he's one of them, again. I also don't like his showing up only after it looks like he's close to being lynched and dishes out that "either both/neither" comment. Also, the comments about the wagon being stupid or retarded, or something from RVS, or whatever other reason all seem to be motivated by wanting to deflect a lynch on him rather than sincerely wanting to lynch someone else, which only makes me want his lynch more. Esp and Emp are also still on my list, but they haven't had much to say today. I'm still debating a few reads, but for now, those are my lynch preferences.

The Kanye wagon is "stupid" because he clearly reads to me as a VI in this game. I think this is an easy wagon that people are jumping on because it doesn't take a lot of scumhunting to say "look, he's derpaderping, let's lynch him!" So of course I'm doing everything I can to derail this wagon, just like I did with the town-Mastin hydra in [REDACTED], where I was town. As such, I've presented analysis on who I think to be the likely scum candidates in this game, to provide alternative lynch options.

That being said, I feel a lot better about you being town after your response. We pretty much disagree on almost everything, but disagree with me doesn't make you scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Now that we've solved that mystery, let's get back to doing something productive. Someone on the Kanye wagon is scum, if not multiple people. Let's find them and hunt them down, preferably starting with Ellibereth.

Why is Elli scum? Reasons are tek.

Reading the thread is tek.

In other news, this Kanye wagon has gone on long enough. This wagon can't be entirely scum-driven, which is a sad realization for those who are town, but let's look at a few exceptionally suspect players.

Wraith's case on Kanye is based on weak reasoning from the beginning of the game, and he hasn't bothered to expand on his suspicion of Kanye since, instead just saying he's still the "strongest scumread" and continually pushing his lynch.

Additionally, Ellibereth's reasoning for being on the Kanye wagon was "kanye was BIG SUSPECT or something". Didn't even bother to provide his own reasoning or agree with anything put forward by someone else, only joined the wagon because other people said Kanye was scummy.

Mockingjaye has almost singularly been focused on Kanye for the entire game. Her posts have been very verbose, but if you can stop your eyes from glazing over and actually look at the details, it's nearly all about Kanye. That's a hell of a lot of posting just about one player being scum. It's either tunnel vision or an attempt to look like she's contributing a lot without actually commenting on anything else that's going on in the game. (She made a brief comment on Gandalf/Andrius, hasn't said anything about MoI, and made a short argument in favor of keeping Feysal alive that actually made no sense because she's trusting a third party player to correctly report their wincon rather than just make one up that will please the town!)

In order of scumminess, I'm thinking Ellibereth > Wraith > Mockingjaye, although it's close enough that I could see switching the first two.

With the Feysal wagon sadly stalled in favor of lynching Kanye, let's try a new tact for now.

Unvote, Vote: Ellibereth

Also why are you focusing solely on the Kayne wagon? He’s unflipped so you have NO idea about what votes on him mean in the context of alignment and relational tells.

Why aren’t you looking at the Peregrine wagon? He’s flipped Town and that wagon was much worse than the Kayne wagon. Especially in light of your post at 1163 where you say this –

Why the fuck was PeregrineV lynched?

Because sadly, I have null or town reads on most of the PeregrineV wagon. I just have no idea why he was lynched.

Read that again, especially the second part. I'm not saying that you personally want Feysal to be kept alive and directed. I'm saying that you ATTACKED me for NOT wanting Feysal kept alive by saying that I should want Feysal to kill Gandalf because he's "the closest thing in the game to a Vig", and then proceeded to argue AGAINST that very attack by claiming that Feysal doesn't think Gandalf is scum and thus can't be expected to vig him.

I’ll make this simple so you can understand it.

1. You claim Gandalf is Jester-scum that needs Vigged.
2. Feysal is the closest thing to Vig we know about currently.
3. Feysal is not going to be lynched today because people like to leave Serial Killer alive.

You claim that your stance on Gandalf is standard MoS play but I haven’t seen you say “Hey Feysal, shoot Gandalf tonight or I am going to run your lynch through tomorrow”. That’s what I would expect Town frustrated by the inability to get a lynch on Feysal to do. It’s pretty much what I did giving Feysal his “MoI approved list”.

Yet despite your ‘hard stand’ on Gandalf you’re going nothing of the sort. It makes me think your stances are completely for show.

So basically you're saying that none of the following constitute me telling everyone that Gandalf needs to be killed?

Gandalf

Since gandalf had exhibited jester signs, we were better off having a vig NK him. Which apparently Feysal failed to do.

It is always optimal play to vig a jester rather than lynching them.

MoS Stance #1: Gandalf is likely a jester and should be vigged.

How many more times do you think I need to say it for Feysal to get the point? If I haven't made it clear by now that Gandalf needs to be vigged and that Feysal needs to be lynched, I want to know where the real game thread is so I can start posting there.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Welcome back, Ludi. I hope things get better for you.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Spyrex makes a lot of good points, except for #4. I don't think people should ever be admonished for calling out another player for not contributing, even if they themselves are not contributing much. It's a null tell at best.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Reading the thread is tek.

Ok, so your reasoning amounts to the following –

Elli has little reason to be on kayne’s wagon.

That’s it? You don’t have anything else? Because that’s a craptastic load to say that’s reasoning when kayne hasn’t even flipped yet. How do you know he’s a mislynch?

Ellibereth exhibited similarly lackluster reasoning when wagoning people in [REDACTED], where he was scum.

I don't

know

Kanye is a mislynch, but I suspect as much because he and his wagon give me the kind of vibes that I trust. As noted previously, see the Palisades mislynch in [REDACTED], which I called correctly based on the exact same vibes.

Because sadly, I have null or town reads on most of the PeregrineV wagon. I just have no idea why he was lynched.

There is clearly scum on the wagon. It’s a fact of Mafia. That you don’t even want to look at a completed Town flip wagon as opposed to a smaller wagon on a non-flipped player is suspect.

Here’s the wagon again … who are your Town reads and who are your Null reads?

Dekes

,

Feysal

,

Empking

,

SpyreX

,

Gut

,

kanyeknowsbest

,

Magister Ludi

, VitaminR[/color],

Furcolow

,

Andrius

,

Espeonage

,

gandalf5166

Color-coded the above list. Green in some degree of a null read, Red is anti-town, blue is some degree of a town read.

So basically you're saying that none of the following constitute me telling everyone that Gandalf needs to be killed?

Actually they all basically look like you whining in general. But that’s just my read.

Perhaps I'm giving people too much credit to be able to decipher something so simple. Do you not think that Feysal and/or the other players in this game are smart enough to figure out that I think Gandalf needs to be vigged without me explicitly making the statement that you suggested previously?

Spyrex makes a lot of good points, except for #4. I don't think people should ever be admonished for calling out another player for not contributing, even if they themselves are not contributing much. It's a null tell at best.

No, it’s not a Null tell. Spyrex has already explained it well – Cognitive Dissonance is a strong scum-tell.

I disagree wholly. That sort of scumtell is only even remotely viable in a situation where you KNOW that everyone in the game is playing with the exact same degree of logical thinking. Are you really going to assert that everyone here is completely logical and understands things exactly the same way? If not, cognitive dissonance is not only a subjective conclusion but it's very weak given that many players play by gut as much as they play by logic. And some players are just plain bad/VI.

On that note, Spyrex makes a GREAT point on why Kanye is town, so thank you for coming at it from a more analytical standpoint. I pretty much cba to do that much research after the hour or so I spent prepping a post in [REDACTED]. Everyone on the Kanye wagon should read Spyrex's post and attempt to refute it. Otherwise they should GTFO and stop being scum/retarded. Anyone who opts to stay on the Kanye wagon without giving a reasonable response to Spyrex's post will become the direct focal point of ire for the rest of the game until they are dead.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Andy's seemed relatively sensible to me so far this game. I do realize that he supposedly didn't have a role yesterday, but I haven't seen any great change between the two days that would indicate to me that he's playing differently (and someone without a role has playing like town in their best interests imo). That being said, I don't know much about his meta so my town read on him is tenuous, probably the lightest of all my town reads. Although I can't for the life of me remember why I think Ludi is town. Maybe it's cuz he just feels different than when he was scum in [REDACTED].

[Mastermind of Sin]

Oh right. Well, I've already explained why I think ooba is town, but the Ludi bit helps me feel better about that read.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Modkill?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Look at this...

When MoI and MoS aren't bickering at each other its almost like...

wait for it

They're both town. *gasp*

Also, touche. I'm satisfied with the Seraph thing being a null tell on MoI now that we have some confirmation from Andy. I don't see a good reason not to trust what they're saying at this time. (If one of them comes up scum, though, I'll reevaluate.)

[Mastermind of Sin]

Disagree with your conclusion and reasoning both. Furcolow claimed that vigging him would have pro-town consequences, and so I targeted him. Even if he had not asked for it, I did not consider Gandalf, and I don't understand why I should necessarily have targeted him if I wanted to be pro-town. Even actual town can disagree on reads, and for the record, I don't think Gandalf is either a jester or scum.

First off, you believed someone in a bastard game when they volunteered to be killed and said it would be good for the town? WTF?

Secondly, quoting this post for posterity so I can laugh at you later when/if gandalf comes up as non-town.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Andy's QT summary was lulz.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I already spent half the day trying to get Feysal lynched...what more do you want? Clearly it isn't going to happen today (you seem to agree that he should die as well), so I'm moving on to something more productive and then we're going to kill Feysal Day 3 when he fails to vig gandalf again.

[Mastermind of Sin]

EBWOP: Can get behind a WoW lynch if necessary before deadline. Not my favorite lynch, but I don't have a town read on them either. Would much rather pick off someone from the Kanye wagon.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Also, whoops, forgot to mark Furc red. That was just a typo. He's not high enough on my lynch list yet, but he's another good vig target after Gandalf.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I have yet to see him do anything town. What makes you think he's town?

[Mastermind of Sin]

That's essentially the same thing. You're claiming that gandalf definitely has the interests of the town at heart. I don't care if that means he's town or a town-aligned third party. It makes no difference. I do not believe he has been exhibiting pro-town qualities, and you have still failed to explain why you think he has.

[Mastermind of Sin]

@MoI: Had a chance to read through Atomic, fair point there. Not so sure anymore that Ellibereth is scum in this game, but he is very certainly a terribly useless player regardless.

Unvote, Vote: Wraith

Option #2. For those who need a refresher, Wraith has failed to expand on his Kanye case since he started hounding him over very small reasons Day 1. If he was that convinced that Kanye was scum, he would have found more evidence to support his vote since then. It seems to me that he's just finding Kanye a convenient place to park his vote so he doesn't have to do much scumhunting.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Sooooooo you're saying that you think it's MORE likely for scum to not care about the game to the point that they don't read the thread very well and say stupid things than town?

[Mastermind of Sin]

guys, kanye is a big boy. He can defend himself.

Fallacy.

But seriously, let's get more votes on kanye. MoS, VitaminR, summarize the case against our hydra in your own words. Your Wraith vote is pretty weak imo.

Wrong.

[Mastermind of Sin]

You being town doesn't make you right about Kanye. Plus, sheeping is stupid. Unless you're sheeping me. >_>

[Mastermind of Sin]

V/LA over the weekend.

Ooba, what's the color-coding for?

@MasterOS: You say that talking about game theory in a way that results in reads is a form of scumhunting. But I dont remember you making any accusations based on the idea of gandalf as a jester or MagnaOI as maybe-faking the QT.

Game theory influenced my reads on both gandalf and MoI...

[Mastermind of Sin]

*sigh*

In case I'm dead tomorrow, let it be known that the following need to be lynched:

Wraith
Mockingjaye

Also, look strongly into the people that wagon-hopped between Kanye and VitR today.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I disagree. I feel better about her than I do Wraith, but her focus on Kanye is still disconcerting.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Feysal's kill list: Gandalf, Wraith, Mockingjaye.

[Mastermind of Sin]

stfu, jester-scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

^As if we needed any more reason NOT to kill Kanye.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Well, fuck.

[Mastermind of Sin]

^good plan. +town points for Hero.

[Mastermind of Sin]

There's a guilty on Empking? Who?

Vote: Sun and Moon

Feysal, if you truly want to work with the town to accomplish your win condition without having us kill you first, please leave MoI alive until you have found and killed your fourth target (you have gotten 2 of 4 so far, right?). If you kill MoI before eliminating your other target, I swear to god I will hunt you down and lynch you before you get the chance to win.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Actually as was discussed in the QT it isn’t really as useful as Mina / Faraday originally thought. Preempting AGM would just give him the first action of the next day.

It might bear fruit near endgame if Mina / Faraday have something big up their sleeve and it would help to shut AGM out until the next morning.

I don't know much about this Seraph thing, but wouldn't it be more beneficial to have the last action of the day rather than the first action? That way even if AGM gets to go first, Faramina has the chance to respond before the day ends?

[Mastermind of Sin]

On a separate note, MoI, we might have to start another count like the one in your siggy. I can think of a couple times already in games that people have mixed up MoI and MoS. =P

[Mastermind of Sin]

Unvote

No quickhammers on my watch. There's still things to be said, people to be heard.

I think SpyreX already hammered.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I think S&M's mason partner should definitely claim. I don't think we should just flip a coin between the two claims. Waiting for more Seraph clarification, though.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Well even if there aren't two of them, how do we know which one is lying? MoI has no reason to lie at this point, and Faramina just confirmed S&M's name claim...

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't know what to think right now. S&M have just claimed to be a vig who has no way of proving they have the power to kill, since they claimed Feysal's N1 target and a guy who didn't die N2. There are a lot of ways for that to happen, but it doesn't make me feel any better about their claim. Ooba backing it up helps somewhat, except that S&M could have just lied to Ooba about being a vig.

Vote: S&M

[Mastermind of Sin]

Amrun, 90% of the time mason roles are not alignment confirmed. I don't know why you are having such a hard time grasping the fact that you need to ask the mod about this.

[Mastermind of Sin]

As for masons - MoI, I think your meta is outdated. I know this wasn't always so, but "masons" means alignment confirmed now.

No, it really doesn't.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ooba softclaimed it earlier.

MoS, it was never 90% non-confirmed and it certainly isn't now. All the cool kids use neighbors.

I honestly can't remember the last time I've seen masons that *were* confirmed. I'm not saying that scum-masons are terribly common, but it's pretty much common practice to not confirm alignments. Certainly enough that neither Ooba or S&M are justified in assuming that's the case if they weren't explicitly told so.

Especially

in a bastard game.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Unvote, Vote: Empking

As much as this whole situation is hella confusing, Amrun does make a good point that we don't have to choose between them and MoI today. We have a Seraph-declared scumbag, let's go with that lynch now and see what shakes out of this Turin thing.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't agree with a) or c) and I don't even know what b) means. The Cop guilty means very little in this game, Amrun claiming miller to Ooba long before the Cop investigation is enough for me. I mean I'm not saying the slot is confirmed town, I just don't think its all that likely that they are scum. Useless? Sure. More deserving of dying? Sure. But they don't actually have a reasonable chance of being scum. Do you really think the mafia have a vig? Cause the way kills fell there was a missing killer before Amruns claim.

The choice isn't between S&M and MoI like you all are framing it, its between S&M and (MoI and a lynch of our choosing), giving up that lynch is a big deal.

Wait, who do you think the mafia killed Night 1?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Wait, who do you think the mafia killed Night 1?

No one? Failed kills aren't particularly uncommon.

SpyreX, I don't think this dance is justified today, so there's no reason we'd do this dance again "tomorrow". Unless ooba + S&M are scum claiming masons, we know why there's a guilty result. Arguing that we're not wasting our lynch on non-scum by appealing to Feysal is silly - letting S&M live gives us a lynch and 2 vig shots.

While that's a perfectly reasonable explanation, your argument that S&M must be telling the truth because it accounts for the second kill N1 doesn't make any sense, unless you have inside information that the mafia kill failed that night.

Cause the way kills fell there was a missing killer before Amruns claim.

I don't see how this statement is at all relevant when we don't know who the mafia killed Night 1.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Has the mod confirmed that kill flavors actually mean anything and aren't just...flavor?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Fair enough.

[Mastermind of Sin]

This isn't the only game Espy is lurking in, fyi.

I'm hoping he gets replaced, though.

Elli is a hypocrit.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm pretty content lynching the Seraph-confirmed scum and letting the chips fall where they may to clear up this MoI/S&M business.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Also, random-ass thought. If AGM-seraph de-neighborized MoI, is it at all possible that part of scum-seraph's action also changed MoI's alignment? That would kind of explain what is going on today.

[Mastermind of Sin]

First off, the wording of my role own makes it ambiguous. It tells me that Sun and Moon is Turin, my brother,

and that I am reasonably sure he share the same town win condition as me.

Despite proding, and I'm sure on purpose, Plum has not clarified this.

this is markedly different from the "it doesnt say anything about alignment were masons of course were confirmed" that amrun has been spouting.

This is a good point. I'd like S&M/Ludi to address this.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Feysal, that theory is all good and well, but why are you not helping us lynch the Seraph-confirmed scumbag Empking?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Unvote

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote: Ellibereth

Moar content plz.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm here and catching up, albeit slowly. I've read all of day 3 and most of day 1. Barring power outage due to

snow

in

October

, I'll be caught up tomorrow.

I don't see any way we can justify lynching anyone other than S&M or MoI - regardless of whether you believe the mason/miller/vig claim or not, we have two Turins. I don't see that being possible barring one of them being scum.

MoS, why the Elli vote? Why are you placing a lurkervote when we have a 1-1? The same goes for people voting me and Empking, but those are at least *wagons*. One vote doesn't get to call itself a pressure vote.

I'm inclined to believe MoI over S&M, just because the millermasonvig claim is just so over the top. Also, it seems like we'd be better off being wrong and killing S&M than being wrong and killing MoI.

S&M, did the millerization happen at the same time as the vig shot or because of the vig shot? Please clarify with the mod if you don't know this.

VOTE: S&M

I don't even know where to start with this post.

Unvote, Vote: smargaret

LYNCHLYNCHLYNCH. I'll come back and explain why if there is actually someone who doesn't understand why that post was terrible.

Also, kanye's wow comments were tech.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Oooooor...we lynch Smargscum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Oh, wow, that was dumb. I'm sorry, I was skimming to try to catch up and completely missed a page >.<

Unvote

Re-voting the other way as soon as I go back and see whether it's MoS or MoI on the counterclaim.

Wowscum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

WEAK

[Mastermind of Sin]

Alright, really need some explanations here. Feysal is lynch #1, S&M is lynch #2. Feysal has absolutely NO reason to kill someone other than the person who gives him a win and removes him from the game. Which means that he was lying to us about his win condition from the beginning (which doesn't surprise me). S&M's SpyreX kill stinks, SpyreX was fairly obviously town. I still think it's hella suspicious that S&M has claimed 3 kills so far, and as of yet we have no evidence of a mafia kill. I half suspect that they claimed the failed kill on Espy/Smarg in order to supposedly account for a mafia kill Night 2 and to make them look good when/if their scumbuddy died. Right now, though, I'm more worried about Feysal. I'd also like to hear from MoI about why he isn't dead. Suicide cop failing to get his guilty result lynched and then surviving the day? WTF is that shit?

tl;dr - Feysal, S&M, and MoI are all still hella scummy and have some explaining to do.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote: Amrun

Great.

Did you give Andrius a role last night. YES OR NO

.

This is not optional.

Don't be a dick. There's no need to bold it and threaten.

Yes.

Andrius, please confirm whether or not you have a role now.

MOS, 2 kill methods were used to kill SpyreX, IE: 3 kills. Everything else aside S&M 100% can kill.

Oh, thanks, I totally didn't see that.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Andrius, why the hell would you say that before letting Feysal explain himself? FFS...

Also, Regfan most of your analysis seemed relatively sound, until you concluded that Kanye should be lynched. That doesn't make any sense at all.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't see why we're suffering confirmed scum to live who did not play to his supposed wincon that we specifically left him alive to fulfill and get him out of our way, instead killing a town protective role.

Vote: Feysal

[Mastermind of Sin]

mjaye, stop tunneling. This is part of why I thought you were scum yesterday. If you want to prove you're not scum, come up with some different damn suspects. Kanye can't be scum by himself, but don't you dare base your analysis on the assumption that he is.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Also, Regfan most of your analysis seemed relatively sound, until you concluded that Kanye should be lynched. That doesn't make any sense at all.

Can you attempt to summarize or explain your town-read on him for me then please. Also if you believe my analysis is relatively sound why are you voting Feysal when I elaborated into the need and benefits of aiming for scum today rather then third party?

I said *most*...I don't feel like we're in LYLO on Day 3 (that would be poor game design, and I have a better opinion of our mod), and I see no reason not to lynch claimed scum. Him being third-party or not is a irrelevant. He is not aligned with the town, and he has just demonstrated that he is more interested in killing off town than fulfilling his own supposed wincon. That means that he either has some ulterior motives for killing off town members (besides simply being scum), or he lied to us about his wincon, not thinking that a role as important as Turin would be claimed so early in the game. I'm going with the latter, but in either case it's more than enough reason for him to die today.

As an extra note against this being LYLO, for us to be in that scenario there would need to be 5 remaining mafia all part of the same group, and we'd have to lynch wrong today AND have 3 separate kills tonight on all town.

1) I think 6 mafia is a ludicrous number for a 22 player game.
2) If we lynch Feysal today, we CAN'T have 3 kills tonight, therefore ENSURING that even if point #1 is wrong, there is absolutely no way that today can be LYLO. So if you're truly worried about preventing the game from ending today and you're not just blowing smoke, you should be voting Feysal.

[Mastermind of Sin]

So if you're truly worried about preventing the game from ending today and you're not just blowing smoke, you should be voting Feysal.

To put it simply, a scum lynch is a lot more powerful than a SK lynch in a larger game like this if the SK is willing to assist us in shooting and lynching scum. If we had a lot less players alive or this was a mini of some form I'd completely understand and be all for lynching Feysal right now but we can use him to shoot a predetermined pool effectively using him as a tool against the mafia and help dwindle down potential suspects. So MoS, who's scum?

Oh and Andrius, you need to yell at Faraday enough to get a complete reads list from him.

I still like Ellibereth and mockingjaye from before this whole MoI/S&M fiasco (and the Empking gambit) started yesterday.

MoI, if you don't mind I'd like to hear your current reads without VCAs impact on them. I really don't believe VCA is as powerful a tool as everyone seems to be making it out to be and is incredibly overused.

If you don't believe VCA is a powerful tool, you should read Prozac's Theme 3.

I don't see why we're suffering confirmed scum to live who did not play to his supposed wincon that we specifically left him alive to fulfill and get him out of our way, instead killing a town protective role.

Would you prefer that I had killed or tried to kill a town vigilante instead, which is what I believe Amrun is?

I would prefer that you are dead. Failing that and you not taking the chance to leave this game and have us be rid of you once and for all, I would prefer that you not kill at all, since you are only hurting the town by repeatedly killing us.

Alright, really need some explanations here. Feysal is lynch #1, S&M is lynch #2. Feysal has absolutely NO reason to kill someone other than the person who gives him a win and removes him from the game. Which means that he was lying to us about his win condition from the beginning (which doesn't surprise me). S&M's SpyreX kill stinks, SpyreX was fairly obviously town. I still think it's hella suspicious that S&M has claimed 3 kills so far, and as of yet we have no evidence of a mafia kill. I half suspect that they claimed the failed kill on Espy/Smarg in order to supposedly account for a mafia kill Night 2 and to make them look good when/if their scumbuddy died. Right now, though, I'm more worried about Feysal. I'd also like to hear from MoI about why he isn't dead. Suicide cop failing to get his guilty result lynched and then surviving the day? WTF is that shit?

tl;dr - Feysal, S&M, and MoI are all still hella scummy and have some explaining to do.

Even before the VC Analysis pointed me in his direction this post STUNK as from scum.

1. Multiple mistakes in facts (Lack of Mafia kill, ignoring the shut off of my latent ability) used to take stance
2. Pushing three solidly potential dangers to Mafia (Serial Killer, Proven non-Mafia killer, possible Cop) as the top suspects for the day and completely ignoring the fact that Smargaret flipped scum, and Bulletproof scum at that.

Scummy.

1) You do realize how ridiculous it sounds for YOU of all people to say it's scummy to want Feysal dead, right?
2) See above, but replace Feysal with S&M
3) I expected the conflicting claims to be resolved by today (due to scum/Feysal kills), but they were not so I still do not trust any of you. I never saw you say anything about being deactivated.
4) You think I'm scum for making a mistake about the mafia kill and other facts declared in thread? ...what?
5) How in the hell do you think I'm ignoring smarg being scum? I was one of the people pushing that fucking wagon yesterday, and in the very post you quoted to say I was scum, I address smarg being bulletproof. Here, let me quote it for you since you clearly didn't see it the first several times around:

I half suspect that they claimed the failed kill on Espy/Smarg in order to supposedly account for a mafia kill Night 2 and to make them look good when/if their scumbuddy died.

OOOOOOOH MoI is making mistakes in facts, he must be scum!

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoI, you're right, I expected there to be more to gain in terms of working out night-kills but there's actually not that much. At the same time though there's an incredible amount of protective roles in the graveyard at the moment and a severe lack of investigative ones with the exception of the weak doctor so I'd bank on there being useful and relevant results coming from a mass-claim.

MoS, I don't think VCA is strong because I know for a fact that it's easily beatable as scum and have seen many cases where there was no scum at all on a town lynch on multiple days or multiple scum on a scum lynch.

I plan on spending tomorrow focusing on ISOing and reading much more deeply into Elibereth and Herodtous.

Well, VCA is useful. Sticking to the standard assumptions about scum behavior is not.

[Mastermind of Sin]

1) You do realize how ridiculous it sounds for YOU of all people to say it's scummy to want Feysal dead, right?

Classic strawman right here. The point is not that you want Feysal dead. The point is that you want EVERY known possible Anti-Mafia power dead. Scummy to try to avoid the point. More on this in point 2.

Actually, I only want Feysal dead right now.

2) See above, but replace Feysal with S&M

.

So you still S&M are Mafia now? After the claimed shot, the flip of smarg, and the fact that we had 3 full kill flavors yesterday there is no chance that Sun and Moon are Mafia with smarg.

Are you suggesting that my stance yesterday knowing what I did know and not knowing those facts shouldn’t change coming into today?

Again ...way to strawman.

Of course I don't think S&M are mafia anymore. Once I found out that we had enough information to discount that possibility, I no longer felt that S&M was a proper lynch. How did you miss that?

3) I expected the conflicting claims to be resolved by today (due to scum/Feysal kills), but they were not so I still do not trust any of you. I never saw you say anything about being deactivated.

So you didn’t take the Town confirmed Seraph’s words that they were going to do it at face value? Still in the “People are lying about what the Seraphs say” stance that made no sense before?

??? The Seraphs said they were going to do it? I thought *you* told us about it... -_-

4) You think I'm scum for making a mistake about the mafia kill and other facts declared in thread? ...what?

You are scum for immediately pushing today on the strongerst Anti-mafia remaining powers in the game and using fraudulent facts to support your reasoning. Pretty clear. You have reading comprehension skill issues?

Clearly my powers of skimming are lacking of late.

5) How in the hell do you think I'm ignoring smarg being scum? I was one of the people pushing that fucking wagon yesterday, and in the very post you quoted to say I was scum, I address smarg being bulletproof. Here, let me quote it for you since you clearly didn't see it the first several times around:

That quote really doesn’t say anything other than you suspected that Sun and Moon lied to cover up them making a Mafia kill yesterday. Which today’s flips and subsequent claims make cleary incorrect.

In the theoretical situation where S&M was scum with smarg (which I felt was possible before I was corrected on the facts I didn't know about), it didn't make any sense for S&M to have claimed to have failed at killing smarg if smarg was NOT bulletproof. Otherwise, if smarg was lynched, there would still be holes in the story. That would have been a terrible claim. Thus, my theory very clearly took into account the fact that smarg had flipped bulletproof.

How does that quote in any way show how you were ‘pushing’ on Smarg / Esp?

Don’t worry, I’m going to go back and look at your Esp / Smarg interactions so I’ll see how your ‘push’ went.

Since when did I say that quote addressed my push on smarg? You very specifically claimed that I ignored smarg being mafia AND that I ignored smarg being bulletproof. I responded to both of those claims by a) pointing out that I had thought smarg was scum, and b) pointing out that my initial (but faulty) theory at the beginning of the day very clearly took into account that smarg had flipped bulletproof, thus proving that I had NOT, in fact, ignored the flip. My skimming may be terrible, but I at least looked at the roles of the dead, lol...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Herodotus: Feysal claims that he did NOT try to kill Sun & Moon, so why do you believe everything else he's told us about himself but think he's lying about targeting WoW directly?

[Mastermind of Sin]

SKs are scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Actually, I only want Feysal dead right now.

That’s not the point. You started the day attacking all three of those players with complete lack of attention to the facts of the game. It was clearly scummy and your backpedalling doesn’t improve that.

You've pretty much just started repeating yourself over and over, so I'm going to wait and respond to this same point all at once.

Of course I don't think S&M are mafia anymore. Once I found out that we had enough information to discount that possibility, I no longer felt that S&M was a proper lynch. How did you miss that?

The information that discounted that possibility existed before you posted your scummy post. So the ‘Oh, I didn’t know’ stance means either you are a moron or scum. I’m leaning scum.

Oh wait, here it is again.

??? The Seraphs said they were going to do it? I thought *you* told us about it... -_-

Lulz – let’s review since your reading skills suck –

Wait, this looks familiar!

We have one move left today. NO ONE is to lynch before The Baker gives the a-ok. It is not our turn (our last move being made 10/26th at 3:13am and processed circa 10h later). When it is, we will deactivate Magna's power. ANYONE WHO HAMMERS BEFORE THEN IS CONFIRMED SCUM.

Clearly my powers of skimming are lacking

of late.

I fixed that to more accurately reflect your reading comprehension all game.

I'm getting bored.

Since when did I say that quote addressed my push on smarg? You very specifically claimed that I ignored smarg being mafia AND that I ignored smarg being bulletproof. I responded to both of those claims by a) pointing out that I had thought smarg was scum, and b) pointing out that my initial (but faulty) theory at the beginning of the day very clearly took into account that smarg had flipped bulletproof, thus proving that I had NOT, in fact, ignored the flip. My skimming may be terrible, but I at least looked at the roles of the dead, lol...

This is a long paragraph of nothing.

Yet again – your first post showed complete lack of any sort of comprehension of the game state (from a Town perspective). You got laid out when the actual facts were presented and now are backpeddling in an attempt to distance yourself from your own scummy post. Nice.

Whoa, really? I didn't see that coming.

Seriously MoI, your entire argument here has come down to "he didn't pay attention, so he's scum!" You do realize how little that makes sense, right? You are either claiming that I am scum who skimmed so badly that I forgot about my own faction's kill, or that I'm such a "crafty" player that I feigned missing out on those several facts. Neither of those options are logical conclusions. What exactly would be my motivation for presenting an argument that is so clearly debunked simply by looking at the first post? What evidence have you seen that convinces you that I would be so much more meticulous as town than as scum? That scum-MoS would not have carefully crafted his posts and double-/triple-checked the facts before putting forth his theories? What meta are you drawing this from?

Herodotus: Feysal claims that he did NOT try to kill Sun & Moon, so why do you believe everything else he's told us about himself but think he's lying about targeting WoW directly?

Do you not understand Mafia? Because Feysal playing to his wincondition says the only logical shots for him last night were Sun and Moon and me. Accepting “Oh, I shot WoW the Bodyguard” story in light of his Dekes kill agreement is pretty ludicrous.

I didn't say I believe Feysal...I don't even believe he was telling the truth about his wincon, so my opinion of whether or not he shot WoW is irrelevant, since he should die either way. I am trying to figure out why Herodotus believes EVERYTHING ELSE Feysal has said, but only now thinks the claimed SK might lie to us.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Sorry, been kind of letting this game slide to deal with another game for a bit. I'll respond to MoI as soon as I get time.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why do you say that, Furc? I think kanye is pretty obviously town at this point. Haven't we exhausted this topic already?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't really like Andy's little "falala" attitude in the most recent post. It's like he's trying to make light of things to avoid looking scummy over them. My gut reaction was that he probably has reasons not to have claimed his role earlier, but this most recent response doesn't look so great to me. Also, his list of reads seems pretty pedestrian and safe, not really the best sign in my book.

[Mastermind of Sin]

EBWOP:

Vote: Andrius

Will likely respond to MoI tomorrow as I mentioned earlier. Going to bed now, so I didn't have time for a long post but I wanted to pop in cuz Andy's latest caught my eye.

[Mastermind of Sin]

ROFL. *Now* you guys get it? Sheesh. MoI and I have been warning you guys about Feysal all game...

[Mastermind of Sin]

@Everyone not MoS

– If you don’t bother to read my response to MoS below please focus in on the important element his response skips – his original assertion that he ‘pushed’ the Smarg lynch. The ISO I did on him clearly shows he ignored the Esp slot until the absolute last second and then went into bus mode. He knows he can’t really argue against it so he ignored it.

Yes, I ignored the person who lurked all game and who I said needed to be replaced before we could do anything with that slot. Then they replaced and posted something that got my attention, so I attacked. Do you not think the post I voted smarg over was legitimately scummy? Why do you not believe that town could have read that post and concluded smarg was worth pursuing?

You've pretty much just started repeating yourself over and over, so I'm going to wait and respond to this same point all at once.

Then why bother to quote selective parts and say crap like “I’m bored”? You did respond in an typically scummy way to attempt to undermine me by pretending responding to you was repetitive and useless. Scumtastic of you MoS.

I’ll skip all your repetitive crap …

Because I was making a point. It's one thing for a person to make empty statements like "you're just being repititive" or "you're undermining me", it's another thing to prove it. I wanted people to realize that you were tunneling me so bad that you weren't even stopping to make real argument anymore. You're just throwing the same old shit at me over and over.

Seriously MoI, your entire argument here has come down to "he didn't pay attention, so he's scum!"

You do realize how little that makes sense, right? You are either claiming that I am scum who skimmed so badly that I forgot about my own faction's kill, or that I'm such a "crafty" player that I feigned missing out on those several facts. Neither of those options are logical conclusions. What exactly would be my motivation for presenting an argument that is so clearly debunked simply by looking at the first post? What evidence have you seen that convinces you that I would be so much more meticulous as town than as scum? That scum-MoS would not have carefully crafted his posts and double-/triple-checked the facts before putting forth his theories? What meta are you drawing this from?

Bolded – Nope, not even close. It’s “MoS’s original post right out of the gate is scummy as all get out. He doesn’t bother to actually look for scum but attack 3rd Party Feysal (easy attack), SunandMoon (not possibly Mafia with Smarg) and myself (I’ll leave you to fill in this but given you’ve already said “I only want to lynch Feysal” it’s pretty clear you know I'm Town) as opposed to looking for Smarg partners”. That’s pretty easy to understand.

I only have so much time to put into this game. You want me to spend time defending myself against your tunneling, spend time attacking the obvlynch Feysal who you even AGREE needs to die, AND find time to do a full game analysis to find smarg's partners? I can only juggle so many things at a time. It's not like this is my only commitment, you should know better.

The rest of your post looks like a a WIFOM parade –

What would be my motivation when my argument was crap?

Let’s see … hoping you can get Amrun / Magister and I at each other’s throats again based on the 'non-resolution", hoping you can get one or two non-partners to not look closely and to have your partners help out if it works? Clearly not out of the question.

That's not even a tenuous accusation, that's outright ludicrous. You think that I have such a low opinion of the intelligence of you, Amrun, and Magister, as well as the entire rest of the town players in this game, that I think I could simply tell you something completely contrary to the facts of the game and have you believe me? You really *do* think I'm a moron, don't you?

Now on the otherside – What motivation for Town is there to post what you did when it was clearly wrong and to not be first looking for Smarg partners? There really isn’t one.

And if I had noticed I was wrong, I wouldn't have ever said it...duh.

What evidence have I see that you are more careful as Town or Scum?

Aside from the WIFOM what does that even mean? Makes no sense at all. You are attacking arguments never made. Do you own a large farm you need to fit with all the strawmen you are building today? Again – I see scum taking a chance, getting smacked down, and backpedelling with “Oh, I missed that”. Again … no reason for Town to have taken the stance you did.

You have a very strange definition of "taking a chance". More like "jumping off a cliff".

If you had even ONCE stopped to think about this situation from my point of view, from even the theoretical standpoint that I could be town, you would know EXACTLY why there was town reason to have taken the stance I did. With 2 claimed roles having the same rolename, a suicidal cop who didn't die, and a claimed vig whose kills seemed to account for all our extra kills without leaving room for the mafia's kills (that was the gamestate as I understood it), it would be ridiculous not to be suspicious of the situation.

What meta am I drawing from

? None at all. I’m drawing from logical scum and Town motivations. I can’t see any for Town (aside from you being a uber-VI level player like Shotty or Furc) but I can see a scum one. A stupid longshot (IMO) as discussed, but still more likely than you are just plain stupid.

You are only considering the perspective that all town players saw the same information you saw. That every town player reads every single posts in its entirety and fully understands the state of the game at all times. From that perspective, yes, there are no logical town motivations to do what I did. But then again, with that assumption made, there are no logical SCUM motivations either! For scum-me to believe I could pull the wool over on this town, I would have to believe that the majority of the town were exactly like me, completely unaware of the state of the game. That directly contradicts the assumption you seem to be using to rule out the possibility of me being town. That is a logical contradiction.

I didn't say I believe Feysal...I don't even believe he was telling the truth about his wincon, so my opinion of whether or not he shot WoW is irrelevant, since he should die either way. I am trying to figure out why Herodotus believes EVERYTHING ELSE Feysal has said, but only now thinks the claimed SK might lie to us.

Doesn’t make sense. If Feysal was a full Serial Killer looking to survive long term he would not have claimed his ‘limited target list” that by Day 3 ended up having all but one name off it. And he certainly wouldn’t have gone back on his “I’ll shoot Dekes” statement Day 3 if he was a full Serial Killer. Nothing to gain by saying “I think Dekes is Town” and looking to kill anyone else when a bad flip (in this case WoW) screws him immediately.

Again – the most logical conclusion is that Feysal claimed his actual Wincon and took a flier seeing so many dead Protection roles that he could win and escape today.

What reason would SK-Feysal have to believe that he would be unlucky enough to kill two of his claimed target list the first two nights AND have his third target name claimed TWICE on Day 3?

[Mastermind of Sin]

So, I just wrote an entire post until I realized that I'd already responded to it. Then I realized that I ended up saying something completely different than I did the first time, so I'm just going post it anyway because it brings up some different points. Then I wrote the next part of my post and forgot to combine the two into one post since this post was sitting in a notepad file while I worked on the other response. So, sorry for the double post. >.<

Actually, I only want Feysal dead right now.

That’s not the point. You started the day attacking all three of those players with complete lack of attention to the facts of the game. It was clearly scummy and your backpedalling doesn’t improve that.

Changing my mind in the face of the fact that I was completely wrong is not the same as backpedaling. By definition, backpedaling means that someone tries to distance themselves from an argument. I'm not distancing. I fully admit to believing those arguments at the time I made them, and I'm not making them out to be anything they weren't. I'm also admitting that I was dead wrong in my interpretation of the game state that caused me to make those arguments.

Of course I don't think S&M are mafia anymore. Once I found out that we had enough information to discount that possibility, I no longer felt that S&M was a proper lynch. How did you miss that?

The information that discounted that possibility existed before you posted your scummy post. So the ‘Oh, I didn’t know’ stance means either you are a moron or scum. I’m leaning scum.

You don't need to be a moron to be inattentive. In your eyes, there should be two separate sets of possibilities:
1) I am either a moron or a smart player who was inattentive.
2) I am either town or scum.

That leaves four possibilities:

1) I'm moronic town.
2) I'm smart town who didn't pay attention.
3) I'm moronic scum.
4) I'm smart scum who didn't pay attention (or faked it, as you are asserting).

You don't seem to think I'm a moron, as you have repeatedly put me under a burden of proficiency argument (which is a fallacy, by the way). That leaves options 2 and 4. You have yet to explain why you think a

smart

scum player would have ANY reason to believe they could get away with misstating PUBLIC information that would most DEFINITELY be corrected almost immediately. This isn't a case of misrepresentation or misinterpretation, I completely stated the facts of the game wrongly. There is no case to be made for scum attempting something like that as some sort of ploy.

??? The Seraphs said they were going to do it? I thought *you* told us about it... -_-

Lulz – let’s review since your reading skills suck –

We have one move left today. NO ONE is to lynch before The Baker gives the a-ok. It is not our turn (our last move being made 10/26th at 3:13am and processed circa 10h later). When it is, we will deactivate Magna's power. ANYONE WHO HAMMERS BEFORE THEN IS CONFIRMED SCUM.

Wow, that's embarrassing. I just went back and looked at that post, and I know exactly what happened. I read the first two sentences and my brain just glazed over and didn't register the rest. Fuck. >.< No wonder this shit didn't make sense.

Clearly my powers of skimming are lacking

of late.

I fixed that to more accurately reflect your reading comprehension all game.

Since when did I say that quote addressed my push on smarg? You very specifically claimed that I ignored smarg being mafia AND that I ignored smarg being bulletproof. I responded to both of those claims by a) pointing out that I had thought smarg was scum, and b) pointing out that my initial (but faulty) theory at the beginning of the day very clearly took into account that smarg had flipped bulletproof, thus proving that I had NOT, in fact, ignored the flip. My skimming may be terrible, but I at least looked at the roles of the dead, lol...

This is a long paragraph of nothing.

Yet again – your first post showed complete lack of any sort of comprehension of the game state (from a Town perspective). You got laid out when the actual facts were presented and now are backpeddling in an attempt to distance yourself from your own scummy post. Nice.

You really need to stop repeating yourself and avoiding the topics at hand. I very clearly explained comments that YOU addressed to me that had NOTHING to do with my reading comprehension fail, and you responded by saying "lol, you can't read." That's just disrespectful, dude, and it shows that you care more about discrediting me than actually discussing things logically and seriously. I'm disappointed in you.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Unvote, Vote: Feysal

Cute story, but ultimately pointless. You're still an SK who claimed he could win with the town and then went off and started killing protown players that had nothing to do with his wincon. We should have killed you the same day you claimed.

[Mastermind of Sin]

inb4 "MoS is scum for wanting to lynch the same guy I'm voting instead of keeping his lonely vote on Andy!"

[Mastermind of Sin]

Feysal, you *do* realize that I correctly realized that GreyICE was full of shit (he was lying about being third-party, if you look at his actual role he was a townie) and attacked him appropriately. My alignment being scum made it lucky for me that we weren't on the same team, but I also pursued lynching him because it's what I would do as town. Of course, there's also a world of difference between wanting to lynch a claimed third party trying to get people to say VHESSKID (I still won't say it on principle =P) and wanting to lynch a claimed third party who is killing off town players.

Just sayin'.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Furc, I understand that you win with Feysal now, but that's just retarded.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Shit I almost forgot about mockingjaye. We can look at her and Andrius tomorrow.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Amrun, you should probably kill Andrius or mockingjaye tonight. Ellibereth would also be acceptable, but far inferior to those two choices.

[Mastermind of Sin]

@Mod: Please update the first post with replacements. It's getting confusing.

[Mastermind of Sin]

@MoI: Posting from my phone, but the answer to your last question is most emphatically YES. That is what I have been trying to tell you this entire day.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Does anyone know how long seraph periods are? There should be a reasonable amount of time we can wait to determine whether or not a new mouthpiece has been established.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Unless we get evidence that Furc is lying and/or has a killing role, I don't think he's a top priority until we get some more scum down. But you do make a good point that we have to deal with him at some point.

[Mastermind of Sin]

oh and also andrius for vigging.

This.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Here are two posts where you explicitly make the effort to show you don’t know that the Mafia didn’t have two kills despite the fact that it was clearly disclosed in the sign-up and the whole premise of the first game. And you got at least one Town read for this ‘mix-up’ (from StephanB). And it’s a recent game so “oops, I forgot” don’t cut it.

And you were scum.

So you are lying when you say you would never try to fake lack of knowledge as scum.

And thus the whole premise that you could only be ‘inattentive’ in making those ‘mistakes’ in your opening post is blown completely apart. As is the WIFOM of “why would I as scum specifically post things that are easily refuted”.

And why I think you are a great lynch / Vig candidate. Kthxbye!!!

--

You asked if I would fake lack of knowledge, not if I ever actually miss something as scum. Those are two different questions.

I wasn't faking it in Dating Game Mafia 2. >_< It was just a lucky break for me that Stefan cleared me, but I had never played the Dating game mafia before so I didn't know it was public knowledge. Same reason I questioned you on the Seraphs in this game, because I haven't played in any of the other ones and I didn't bother to go look it up because honestly I don't care enough to do so.

I miss things all the time, regardless of alignment. That's because I tend to play by the seat of my pants and the majority of my game is based on gut, rather than thorough reading. I pretty much skim most games until it gets to a point where that doesn't cut it anymore, and then I pull out the logic guns and put in the work. I don't have the time or motivation to do that the whole way through a game.

[Mastermind of Sin]

For the record, I signed up for Mafia Dating Game 2 because farside22 was modding, not because of the mechanics. I didn't actually even realize we got two votes until the game started and I saw other people voting twice.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Oh, I actually found proof that I didn't know, haha...for supposedly checking the scum QT, you guys did a terrible job of reading.

Dating Game 2 Scum QT: http://www.quicktopic.com/46/H/bQ3nuSVSYmPR

Up until post 13 I only talk about killing one person, then the mod points out that we have a second kill thanks to Lowell, which from the way the mod worded it, I assumed the second kill was an special ability for his role, not a built-in mechanic for the game. In retrospect it's reasonable to have interpreted it differently, but as I've never played in a game where the mafia publicly had two kills, it didn't even occur to me to think of it like that.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I miss things all the time, regardless of alignment. That's because I tend to play by the seat of my pants and the majority of my game is based on gut, rather than thorough reading. I pretty much skim most games until it gets to a point where that doesn't cut it anymore, and then I pull out the logic guns and put in the work. I don't have the time or motivation to do that the whole way through a game.

Then with this and your admission about your play in Dating Game 2 your whole argument about you having to be too ‘stupid’ to make that mistake as scum goes out the window. Seriously … you’ve just directly admitted you miss things as either alignment and shown how you missed obvious facts in Dating Game 2 as scum.

My stance about your start of Day post remains – I see it as scummy. Either you faked ‘missing the information’ as scum knowning you have this to fall back on or you really did miss it and made a horribly scummy attack when you saw only two kills, saw that Spyrex (your team’s shot) was one of them, and saw neither Amrun or myself was dead. You can argue it’s WIFOM, but I’m really not listening. Looking at the rest of your play, your bad Smarg / Esp interactions, and your general lack of scum-hunting I see you as scum.

I regret letting Spyrex sway me out of my scum read on you Day 1 / Day 2.

Now you're just misrepresenting me. I'm arguing that it makes absolutely no sense for me to purposefully make that argument and try to fake it, which has been your argument this entire time. I also argued that it was ridiculous to conclude I was scum BECAUSE I missed the information. It is certainly logical, from the point of view where one does not already know my alignment (ie not where I'm coming from), to conclude that it's possible I made that mistake as scum. But it is NOT logical to conclude that making that mistake is EVIDENCE that I am scum. That makes no sense whatsoever.

But I don't really see the point in trying to argue this anymore. You've already indicated that you're not interested in finding the truth, you're just interested in trying to ram this read down our throats. You're not listening, so I don't see the point in responding to you anymore. Good day, sir.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I've reevaluated my read on mockingjaye. I don't think scum would be this blindly tunneled on someone who is generally considered to be town. If she was scum, I think she would have backed off and tried to go in a different direction and just kept Kanye on her scumlist without continually pressuring him. I withdraw mockingjaye from my potential vig list. I think Andrius is pretty obviously the best choice for tonight, with Nacho coming in at a distant second based mostly on Ellibereth's play. I haven't done much more than skim his posts since he replaced, but I haven't seen anything that jumped out at me as exceptionally townie.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't think scum would be this blindly tunneled on someone who is generally considered to be town.

I've done this exact thing as scum. It's almost certainly not best play but it's entirely plausible. Scum might also not feel uncertain as regards how to back off in a natural-looking manner.

Gut: Thank you. I haven't ever known how to do that.

It's a fairly new tag.

Eh, I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I don't think it's likely in this case. Mjaye doesn't strike me as someone who would be this relentless as scum. I don't have any previous experience, but just the way her posts read to me I am starting to doubt that's what is happening here.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Hey all, sorry for the lack of posting. I've been away on vacation and forgot to report it to the mod, although I did tell him I'd be posting today when he prodded me yesterday (hence my being on the site briefly to repond to the pm). I'll give a free pass to the people who voted me for not posting, if only because they're people that clearly don't know anything about me. Thinking that I would avoid a game thread for any reason is just silly.

I am Turgon, Watcher.

Choices -

Night 1: kanyeknowsbest (No one targeted)
Night 2: SpyreX (No one targeted)
Night 3: Gut (No one targeted)
Night 4: Sun & Moon (No one targeted)

Each target was chosen because I felt they were fairly obviously town at that point and thus had a chance of being targeted by scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

i had a scum read on him early on that has sort ofvsimmered in the background for awhile. i saw his switch to suddenly "kanyes just being retarded!" as odd. also he fits nicely into a mos/moi buddy theory i have. if you are town theres his sudden switch to mjaye is town right before an imminent looking lynch that is similar to his switch on me (guessing on the timing hard to check right now but i think my suspicions would be confirmed if i checked)

hi ludi : ]

BTW, never had time to respond to this yesterday since the day ended before I saw it.

Just in case you weren't sure about whether or not I have a history of white-knighting VIs, I direct you to the following ISO of a recently completed game:

MoS-town defending Palisade-VI

You'll note ISOs 17, 38, 39, 40, 41, 46, and so on.