Mini 1243: Magician Mafia (Game Over)

[Junpei]

I don't really like RVS, so I've composed some questions instead, I would like them answered as they can help me scum hunt.

1)
Of fire and ice, I proceed.
From my cage I have been freed.
The cage of flesh and bone,
with what I once forbode.

What was in your cage?

2) Some prefer logic, others their gut, how say you?

3) Are you one who anticipates the enemy move, or one who reacts to the enemy's moves?

4) In a world where you could never be criticized for being wrong (because no one would know that you are wrong) would you lie more often than normal? Would you speak your mind/do things more than normal?

First!
Don't mind me, I'll just lurk till page 10.

Are you serious? It isn't pro-town to intentionally lurk the first 10 pages of the game, I really do want you to answer the proposed question by the way.

[Junpei]

@Junpei - Do you get any alignment tells from Spring saying she is going to lurk for 10 pages?

If she commits to it, then I find it scummy, however the act of simply saying it is not a tell for either alignment in my opinion.

Shift, if one doesn't answer my questions, or otherwise refuses to (like Vi did) then I simply note when and how they did so. It is an applicable response.

Vi, tell me, are you allowed to break your post restriction X amount of times per day, X amount of times per game? Incorporate the number "1" into your response for the former, and the number "2" for the latter. The second number will be what X is, so you should incorporate that into your answer as well. If you are not allowed to break restriction ever, use the number "3".

[Junpei]

Ah k, first theme game. Vi you don't need to post that much, it makes me look bad.

How does this equal

hmm, i think you got your timer mixed up?

pedit: @ vi

this.

What did you mean by Vi posting a lot making you look bad? Elaborate on the former post, and then on the latter.

[Junpei]

I'm not 100% sure what your response is... and I'm afraid to guess now that you have reminded me of the cryptography thing. I don't think this would apply to the rule though as your post is still cryptic to me, besides, I was not majorly destroying the post restriction with code, just asking a simple question.

Saulres just agreed with me which I don't' find scummy, although I can see why you interpret that as buddying. His flustering over a vote from Shift is scummy though.

Vote: Saulres

That's L-3, for the record. I don't want a quick lynch.

[Junpei]

Junpei: what changed between post 40 and 45?

Nothing in particular changed, although when Vi voted saulres it brought the slot to my attention and I read his ISO. The fact that Vi concurred with another vote meant to me that there was something scummy about saulres, the other two votes just seemed out of place to me, but Vi shifted from RVS to saulres.

[Junpei]

Crab Canon, may we assume that posts that aren't signed are made by VP Baltar?

[Junpei]

Many of them are, but I wouldn't say all. Nor should it matter. We're one head and you're not going to hear any cognitive dissonance from us. Don't you worry your pretty little head.

If you're one head then why does Juls sign her posts?

[Junpei]

I thought it was RVS at the start, but Vi's vote made me think it had something to it, so I looked into it. I hadn't noticed what I now find scummy before, and I said "no quicklynch" because in case more people voted, I wanted them to know that it was at L-3. Salurus hasn't done enough to warrant a lynch in my opinion, but he's the scummiest person in the game to me.

[Junpei]

Unvote, Vote: Junpei

Junpei, you learn anything about of your RVS questions? I find you strangely contentless upon review asking those questions, worrying about if I sign my posts or not, and then sheeping a vote onto salures for what looks more like noob behavior than alignment indicative behavior.

Tell me something substantial you've learned from those questions so I know you're not just faking it.

Here's what the questions do for me. Basically, they help me scumhunt later on. Now I changed the questions slightly (my makeshift poem is in there now) from my last usage, but I did that for enjoyment. The only other place I've used these questions is in [redacted]. But just give it time, it should help me understand the people in this game better.

I think what Vi is saying Crab Canon, is that you were hopping on my bandwagon. Well, lets see.

Took a picture of me, takes sock out of my mouth after putting it in pocket, puts my doll on the wagon and tramples it and asks you to come onto it.

Well see now it seems like Vi is trying to say that she wants you to come onto my wagon. But you're voting me.

I think it has to do with how you are asking about my questions when it is so early, and not everyone has even answered them yet.

I don't understand 89 much at all, but I think that's what she means.

SPEAKING OF WHICH. Everyone please turn your attention to said questions and answer them. By the way, Crab Canon, I am not a noob. I am relatively new to forum mafia, but I am not as greenhorn as the people that people call noobs.

[Junpei]

We're not calling you a noob and that is fact one of the conversations going on in our hydra QT. You aren't a noob. You and I (Juls) have played together. You were much more aggressive in that game. Trying to control things. You were town. Here, you are tentative (for instance where you put saulres at L-3) and seem to be posting just to be active, not to scum hunt (such as when you were asking why I signed my posts and VP didn't...what do you learn from that about our alignment? Absolutely nothing).

I am actually trying to turn down my activity a little bit. You see, every game I join I have the highest post count. I have a life and I have work, but I also have a have something of a passion of mafia, and I like to check threads whenever I have free time that I'm not using for something else. I'm also in 4 games as a way to do that.

Regardless, I am still scumhunting, I'm seeing that quite a few people have posted without saying whether or not they're giving answers and if they are what those answers are. Salrus still hasn't done anything to take my vote off of him. He misrepped Shift, and his post before that had a line that was such a stretch it made no sense, and is still defending from Shifts' vote, which obviously wasn't so substantial.

[Junpei]

Why'd you reference [redacted], an example I'd like to use but can't, don't make it seem like a poor representation of the questions.

I did not throw suspicion on those who haven't answered my questions, I'm personally suspicious of those who have completely ignored commenting on whether or not they will answer the questions.

[Junpei]

Oh, well basically it tells me about your mind a little bit. While it is possible that I can get a scum tell from them, I think a town tell is more likely to arise.

Here are Shift's RVS answers
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 7#p3438107

I like it when answers like these happen (ones that aren't like GuyNamedRigs answers; very short) because there is more to analyze. For instance "react; too lazy and incapable to anticipate movements". This would come from someone who is not confident in themselves to a considerable degree, and also shows some apathy. I might be able to find an example for you later, but little things like "shows apathy;laziness" and "unconfident" could be very helpful in understanding someones' post. I also think that these answers are mostly pure because people don't put their guard up to these questions usually, and when they do it is either obvious in their answers or they don't answer. The former could evolve into a scumtell, the latter is a null tell because we can't tell why they denied, but at the same time, it could help us scumhunt later on by using their reason for not answering.

[Junpei]

The answers themselves do very little, it is the answers in correlation with the persons' play that generates tells.

Also, the fifth amendment is that you don't have to testify against yourself. You realize that don't you?

[Junpei]

duh what are you trying to say.

So are you worried that you're going to say something that will incriminate you?

[Junpei]

Just got back from playing football, but I will post tomorrow, and read what I haven't.

[Junpei]

Vi's opinion doesn't hold so much sway over me, it is rather that Vi concurring with a vote made is seem like nor so much an RVS vote as a vote based on actual reads. If you'll notice, the previous votes had little to nothing in the way of explanation. Vi switching votes though attracted my attention onto the wagon and the reasoning behind it.

My main scum read is currently 4nxi3ty. Here's why:

This posts really doesn't make a lot of sense as has been said, what could he have meant by "evening it up"?

Next one seemed like a stretch. Switch was talking about how he answered my questions so that I wouldn't call him scum for not answering them (I wouldn't have done that, once again).

Unvotes because why? Yes he was on an RVS vote, but perhaps he'd vote someone with a read; instead he quotes a post saying "nope" when the only context of the post was a ebwop that was just signing the post. I don't understand his thought process here whatsoever.

I can only assume that this means he finds Swift, Ace, and Saulrus scummy, yet he has no vote up, why?

Votes Crabcanon for... why? Crab Canon had made two posts since Anxi3ty's last post, but he doesn't mention any reason for the switch from no vote. Also what happened to his implied scum reads?

Asks if there is buddying on Ace instead of pointing out specifically why he thinks there is.

Voted Crab when Crab was null but supposedly he had other scum reads on Ace, Saluris, and Shift. IN fact those are the 4 he thinks is scum. He doesn't really explain how these reads came to be or when they came to be. Just that they did come to be. I guess this post made him find Crab very scummy?

Blatant misrep

BWs onto Ace, so presumably he's willing to lynch any of the 4 people he strongly believes to be scum. Well... looking at a recent Vote count, Crab Canon earlier had just his lone vote on, and we notice that before Vi's vote he could have hopped onto Saulres and there'd have been 3 votes, the same amount as now. I don't see the point of the wait, this vote seems out of place.

Riggs and Locke both have given little to no content.

I read the conversation that Crab Canon was talking about here
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 9#p3447069

And I have to say that Sotty was in the wrong in my opinion. Sotty made a poor assumption that he used as the premise for his argument. When proven wrong, sotty did not acknowledge it.

In fact, Sotty continues to dodge around this fact, and is rather suspicious the more I read it, it seems like sotty is trying too hard to twist Crab Canon's words. Sotty says that he was simply interpreting what Crab Canon said, but when Crab Canon points out that this interpretation makes no logical sense, sotty replies saying that he's an illogical player. I don't like how he tried to get out of that conversation at all.

Vote: 4nxi3ty

Also Vi, you don't need to for your more clear posts, but could you try to incorporate a picture more often (I know you've used a picture several times already) so that it is easier to grasp the overall jist of what you are saying?

[Junpei]

@sotty - *Vi starts CC wagon* *sotty jumps on CC wagon* *sotty fabricates ridiculous explanations* *Vi starts ace wagon* *sotty jumps on ace wagon* *TBC*

4xi3ty also jumped on the CC and Ace wagon shortly after they were made. And he hardly made explanations at all.

[Junpei]

I already did that. Doesn't mean I shouldn't look for more scum. There's not just one.

You only have 1 scum read?

[Junpei]

Yeah okay I read Junpei's case on Anxiety and I still don't get it.

Can you state specifically where you are having troubles seeing my points? Saying "I don't get it" is pretty noncommittal and vague.

Actually no, I'd like 4nxi3ty to address my case, it'll help determine his alignment that way.

[Junpei]

i didn't want to go through the whole case so i just picked the points i felt were most important at this juncture.

CC's vote:

...votes don't have to be used for pressure.

for instance seeing aces response to my revote.

when i originaly placed my vote on CC i thought the crab was null and was trying to gauge ace. afterwards sottyrulez brought up some valid points

i stated my reasons for voting CC and if you disagree with sotty's points that's okay for now.

blatant misrep:

do you agree with junpei, that not answering questions=scum?

or maybe ignoring some questions to avoid circular arguements is better?

this post was mostly directed at CC to figure out the responses that were going on at the time. it was not my intention to misreprensent you though i do see how it can come off that way.

*shakes pant leg*
*collects firework that falls out of pant leg*
*aims rocket between Crab Canon and sottyrulez*
*lights rocket*
*runs in other direction*

*waits for smoke to clear*
*

confirms vote on ace5993

*

good aim

unvote,vote: ace

.

i'll let you decide if there was a good reason to stop the 1v1 between sottyrulez and crab canon. Also i had already recieved a reaction post from ace.

1) I don't see a post anywhere in which you describe what you learned from that vote at all. Seems like a poor coverup for a BW vote.

2) No, you definitely misrepresented me there, there is no doubt about it.

3) Respond to the rest of the case, and stop talking like vi.

[Junpei]

Sotty whatever happened to
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 1#p3448111

BWing is not scummy?

[Junpei]

*looks back at 4nxi3ty with a completely blank look as if to say "I have no idea at all what you're talking about or who the boss is but I think you having a boss means it's more likely that you're a goon and your boss is a scum leader*

It's the best I can do with whatever 4nxi3ty posted. I hate how I don't understand what people are saying in this game.

Yeah same here, I think that a side quest needs to be made to make Vi's post more easy to read, and 4nxi3ty posting like that makes no sense overall, but I do have one idea of what is going on, and if I'm right then Vi would know about it. It isn't alignment revealing to my knowledge though if it is what I think it is. It's also a possibility that 4nxi3ty is faking this, in which case it was cleverly timed right after my case on him.

If people have a strong idea of what 4nxi3ty or Vi are saying then please quote it and decipher it, we can't get bogged down in deciphering it, but someone posting a likely translation can't hurt.

[Junpei]

Sotty, no unjustified namecalling? Did you read this part of his post?

These are what I mean by "unjustified name calling". Now, I suppose this would be nearly ok if it was well explained in previous posts, or if it was self-evident. But that's not the case for these accusations. If you were town who thought CC was scum, I'd expect you to justify these accusations - because it would better explain why you think CC is scum. Backing off slowly shouting "stop twisting my words" is a strategy for getting out of the argument, and maybe making CC look like scum who's twisting your words. I don't think your arguments were anywhere near exhausted if you believe what you say you believe, and that's why I find it scummy that you stopped the argument..

It is obvious that what Fish is saying is that you aren't explaining your accusations in a satisfactory way. Are you refuting that

"

We liked Anxiety for reasons stated about Shift and for his vote on CC. We believe CC is overstating the OMG MOD KILL danger Vi was in. I don't know how much clearer we can be there and yet still Crab wants to get all twisty with it.

"

Isn't enough to tell us just what it is about Crab's response that is so twisty and presumably scummy? Or how any of this traits apply to Crab as you say?

"

Crab's response is pretty underwhelming (semantics, strawmanning points, softly suspecting us) Happy with the vote.

"

Or what this picture even means in Post 174? Seriously, I put it in a tab and it is small. What about this twisting and squirming which I certainly don't see?

"

Regradless, VP's twisting and squirming thought his pressure has been pretty bad. I don't think he has reacted well to our vote at all. What do you think?

"

To which of course you elaborated with everything?

This is what you refuted with "You realize nothing you posted there is unjustified name calling right?". That isn't a good response.

[Junpei]

While he is getting annoying with the imitating, I don't believe its because he's scum. He strikes me as just an annoying townie.

Sorry for double post, but what about 4nxi3ty's (I'm assuming you're talking about him) play makes you think he is just an annoying townie?

[Junpei]

Not to mention that this post
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 0#p3452730

wasn't even in 'post restriction' and was after one that was.

[Junpei]

You know what I just noticed? There is no rule saying no jesters, which is seeming more likely of 4nxi3ty's role -.- 4nxi3ty, why were you posting like that?

mod: is there a possibility for jesters?

[Junpei]

Many of them are, but I wouldn't say all. Nor should it matter. We're one head and you're not going to hear any cognitive dissonance from us. Don't you worry your pretty little head.

Reading our QT and VP's post in thread I completely agree with him on most everything except Guy_Named_Riggs (will explain in a sec). I won't rehash what VP has already covered but I had a few additional things:

There is clearly hydra dissonance in the second quote which is promised not to happen in the first quote.

[Junpei]

It tells me that the two of you aren't actually colliding peacefully on all your supposed thoughts of scumhunting and deciding on things, it shows possible lack of actual scumhunting going on in the QT, and it also shows waffling on Guy_Named_Riggs.

Also I'm a bit confused on your bloated reaction to my post, you could have just said that to begin with, you know.

[Junpei]

Get over it.

I have been busy this week. It was my daughter's birthday and I worked a lot of overtime. I have skimmed the thread at best. I have been talking to VP in our QT a lot more since I have access to the QT at work but not the thread. GNR did not come up in any of our conversations (probably because VP didn't notice him). Are you seriously trying to make a case out of this? That's all you can come up with from my ENTIRE post?

I never said I was making a case or otherwise a campaign for your lynch with this, just pointing out a detail I noticed. Needless to say that most of your reads are one liners that don't mean much (for instance, you just state meta of me). Besides, you mentioned that you were rushing to watch football, which I will also be doing for hours today, so I sympathized with that excuse, but not the hydra dissonance.

Regardless, I know from Newbie 1119 not to prod you about stuff going on in real life, but if you "are all caught up" why are you now saying that "you have skimmed the thread at best"?

[Junpei]

You realize nothing you posted there is unjustified name calling right?

Yes, I suppose "name calling" is the wrong choice of words. Rather "unjustified generic accusations".

Weeeee bracktrack!

Also, this is how Spring plays all her games. It has no bearing on her alignment, hopefully she'll get replaced sooner rather than later.

There.
Was.
No.
Backtrack.

Did you read my post? Did you read his original post?

ATTN: Everyone read this recent exchange, this is getting out of hand.

vote: sottyrulez

[Junpei]

Junpei: do you have any reason to believe that Juls stating a differing opinion to VP is indicative of alignment?

It tells me that the two of you aren't actually colliding peacefully on all your supposed thoughts of scumhunting and deciding on things, it shows possible lack of actual scumhunting going on in the QT, and it also shows waffling on Guy_Named_Riggs.

Also I'm a bit confused on your bloated reaction to my post, you could have just said that to begin with, you know.

[Junpei]

So I was catchting up on reading and saw Spring had about 3 votes added to him?

I must have missed it, can someone tell where the case agaisnt him is?

Huh?

In order to have seen the three votes you must have gotten through this page. In order to have gotten through this page you would have had to see Ace quote his 'case' on springlullaby which was posted earlier.

My stance on this is that we shouldn't policy lynch, rather we should ask for a replacement, in fact...

Springlullaby, do you feel like this game is too much for you right now? I am not encouraging you to replace out, rather I am saying that if you cannot contribute to the game (presumably to time issues), you should consider your options.

[Junpei]

Junpei: I don't see how two heads of a hydra having a different opinion is inherently scummy. As far as I'm concerned, I would think VP and Juls were lying if they claimed to have exactly the same opinion on every single subject. It's not indicative of a lack of scumhunting at all, and there's no waffling. VP said that he thought GNR is bad town. Juls thinks he's scummy. So as far as I can tell, you're just overplaying a disagreement between the two heads to make the hydra look bad.

Inherently scummy? I don't believe I ever said it was, we must consider first the background information pertaining to this dissonance. There aren't many facts to consider so it is straightforward.

1) The hydra promised no dissonance

2) They are a closed hydra

The first point shows that this dissonance creates a lie, a broken promise. I do not believe lies to be inherent of scum because <insert my game theory rant here>, but it is certainly something to note. It is not a lie I would normally consider fine, it is a lie of hydra dissonance which, to me, has its own category. I don't know the contents of the hydra well enough (juls, vp) to evaluate this lie fully.

The second point is where this complicates matters, a closed hydra implies one head, a uniform entity. Earlier I interrogated Juls on why she was signing her posts when, I. sotty wasn't signing posts II. not all unsigned posts are sotty's. We can add to this list that they are now attempting to be a fully closed hydra. So, we must treat the situation accordingly. A closed hydra is a single entity, when a closed hydra shows dissonance, it can't be traced. Person X said a, Person Y said b. However we do not know X or Y's thought process, rather the entity of X and Y's thought process (we'll call this Z). So while we can find motives in Z's actions, we cannot find motive in X or Y's actions. So when they act as X and Y, rather than Z, we cannot see motive relative to their whole play. This is stealthy, and would be something scum might do. I think the probability of scum doing it outweigh the possibility of town doing it, ergo a scum tell.

I brought up my earlier interrogation of the hydra because it shows perhaps, uncertainty in just what they want to do. I don't know how to evaluate this well (maybe someone else does?), as my 1 time hydra experience, we decided pregame easily that we wished to be closed, and there was little differentiating from that plan. It is really just a wrench thrown into everything, this is another reason that I dislike playing with hydras, but we deal.

Finally, the waffling is existent, as the entity of the slot is saying two contradictory things in regards to the same slot. You cannot have bad TOWN and SCUM as the same person, it makes no sense. This is doublethink, which can be credited perhaps to them simply being a hydra, but their proclamation of being a solitary being make me hesitant to give them that extra rope. All in all, it isn't a huge scum tell, in fact all I have done in this post is elaborate on a condensed version that is widely understood well, but you apparently don't.

[Junpei]

Junpei, you are taking a situation that is very clear and reasonable and turning it into a RIDICULOUS case. VP and I did not have an opportunity to communicate between the time I caught up and the time he left for his move. We joined a hydra together for this very reason. He was going to be moving and I will be out of town with no access from October 14-23. There are going to be times where there is just one head in here. GNR isn't the lynch today so the point is moot. If need be, we will discuss this further when he gets settled in. This is the last time I am discussing this. Either move on or continue to weak scum hunt and we will deal with you accordingly.

Simply stating my analysis of the situation. I understand this, and am willing to give you guys time seeing as there are circumstances as such. I was giving the depth to articulate to Locke Lamora the reasoning behind my initial suspicion.

@saulres

Is doing nothing town? Would you say that it is more likely for town to 'do nothing' or for scum to 'do nothing'? Naturally I'm referring to lack of scumhunting in regards to this as well, keep that in mind when answering.

[Junpei]

Springs reads are cookie cutter in the fact that you have a bunch of one line pbpa and then a conclusion which is rather generic. A separate issue I have with it is that she says that she stopped reading people once she deemed they were town. Correct me if I'm wrong, but reads change over the course of time, and that includes town reads, so stopping early and flagging someone as town makes no sense.

Things I'm confused with this post restriction.

1. If they don't mind outing themselves as related, then why didn't they do this from the start?

2. This seems like an easy way to get around the post restriction. Riggs post for Vi whenever she writes a post for you (assuming you have a QT or something) and then Vi quotes it afterward.

Will do more analysis of this later before the day break, and will try to read Riggs' post again, was quite confused the first time I read through it.

Oh, and Vi, you didn't answer Ace's question.

[Junpei]

Okay, I am going to read up on spring and ace soon, and come to a conclusion on which is a more preferable lynch. I don't think sotty is happening.

[Junpei]

Alright, sorry, I've been pretty busy lately, specifically today, but I ISO'd ace/springlullaby and I am seeing the scum reads on spring, but not on ace.

Ace scumhunts clearly throughout the game, and is posting a lot of content and is clearly moving town through this game without spamming the thread. Really the point of him breaking off my wagon seems a bit of a stretch, as he explains this is #249. Is early interaction and heated battle with sotty isn't something I can see from two scum (I think sotty is scum), so given the premise that sotty is scum, this furthers my town read on Ace.

Springlullaby lurked for a lot, and her post of PBPA on everyone was, as I read it again, not that great. Especially considering that when you do post by post analysis, you need to link each post so that it is easily referencable. This is because it is highly up to interpretation, and it is a huge pain to go through every single line and cross reference everything. Also, as mentioned, "stopped reading, this guy is TOWN" is the worst line you could ever say in a post by post analysis.

I would hammer at this point, but with just a few hours left, as long as no one blitzs onto Ace the lynch will go through. I will be at/around my computer up until deadline passes to make sure no one does. Consider springlullaby already lynched. This way people can get in a few more posts if desired.

[Junpei]

====[]

Someone do it. Playing chicken with the deadline is not cool.

Really there is no game of chicken going on, I've already said that I theoretically hammered, if scum were to come in here and blitz it'd be painfully obvious, and I welcome them to do it.

[Junpei]

Theoretically doesn't mean actually. I'm not even the least bit interested in risking a situation where you fail to hammer but your statement of "theoretically" hammering somehow discourages someone else in a position to hammer to do so.

How about this, if anyone votes Ace (the next leading wagon) I will instant hammer. On top of that, 10 minutes from the deadline, I will hammer.

I want to keep the day alive for a few extra hours because several people have indicated that they will be posting just before deadline.

[Junpei]

Theoretically doesn't mean actually. I'm not even the least bit interested in risking a situation where you fail to hammer but your statement of "theoretically" hammering somehow discourages someone else in a position to hammer to do so.

How about this, if anyone votes Ace (the next leading wagon) I will instant hammer. On top of that, 10 minutes from the deadline, I will hammer.

I want to keep the day alive for a few extra hours because several people have indicated that they will be posting just before deadline.

You clearly don't want Ace lynched then. Our lynch clearly isn't happening. What exactly are you waiting for?

If you had read my post, I think you'd realize that I have hammered on singer theoretically. In fact, singer is a pretty good scum read of mine, and ace is a pretty good town read of mine after that reread. I clearly do not want Ace lynched, you got that. You aren't being lynched, you got that too. And, if you had read the post you quoted, namely "I want to keep the day alive for a few extra hours because several people have indicated that they will be posting just before deadline.", you'd have the answer to your question.

[Junpei]

Has singer claimed? This is a no reveal game, and I saw no claim, or were you hoping to avoid that event?

[Junpei]

Huh? You guys don't want spring to claim? Either spring flips scum and we likely get no claim, or spring flips town (unlikely, but to disregard this possibility is foolish), and we would have had a claim, but don't because you wanted to rush the day. We get plenty of information from knowing springs' role. Spring is already dead, and I won't deviate from the hammer regardless of claim, so no one cc.

[Junpei]

4nxiety i dont see how spring has to be VT or third party, and I don't see the issue with what Ace posted.

[Junpei]

ace what do you think of saul coming to your aid... were you really in that much trouble?

I don't really see how you came to the conclusion that Saulrus came to Ace's aide, seeing as he just posted another point against you, to which you respond with buddying OMGUS. Anyway, I'd like to know why you felt that it was scums' 'turn' to push a lynch, and then proceed to push a lynch the next page? Your thought process on this would be nice.

As for as the sotty kill goes, I'm quite surprised it happened, I mean, looking back, sotty was almost a mislynch, and could very well have been our lynch today. I sure would have been keen on lynching sotty had he not died. I don't want to overanalyze the kill (scum may kill to throw us off the scent) though I'm quite curious.

Also

YOU CANNOT PLEAD THE FIFTH, THIS ISN'T AMERICA, THIS IS AN INTERNATIONAL SITE.

vote 4nxi3ty

I don't see saulres being obvious town Ace, I don't really have a strong read either way on saulres. Early on he was scummy, but he has been scumhunting I believe and being productive, but I'll have to read through him again. But I certainly am not picking up on obvious town.

[Junpei]

4nxi3ty, you need to respond to my previous question.

You also need to explain how the following can all be true, which you have stated

1) Ace is buddying me

2) Salurus is buddying Ace

Now, mafia buddy town, which means that if Ace is buddying me, I'm town. But Salurus is buddying Ace... this can't be right, because if Ace is town, then he isn't buddying me, but that was a premise.

As you can clearly see, your two premises cannot co-exist, making any conclusion drawn invalid.

[Junpei]

Junpei, scum can't buddy each other?

I was v/la and need to catch up on this thread.

I want to comment that sottyrulez is a really weird scumkill because several people suspected them. It's just... strange. I want to note their suspicions for possible threatkills. (This is a note to myself for to-do-list for this game.) Off of the top of my head, I recall the supposed 1v1 with Crab Canon, but there is no way CC-scum would do something so obvious and stupid. Also CC is town.

I've always thought of buddying as being nice or otherwise siding with someone for the purpose of gaining town cred with them. I don't know why scum would try to get town cred from their buddy.

[Junpei]

wrong. you are town. ace has been indirectly nudging you to mislynch me.

I see how he is pushing for your lynch, but now how it directly attempts to get my vote. Unless you're actually talking about this...

did you completely forget about it or was it not that important. And by the way i don't need to justify myself since i was right about spring and sotty.

/headdesk

Are you seriously going to "plead the fifth" again?

You're arguing that this is buddying because he asks you if you are seriously going to plead the fifth (which by the way, is used more often by guilty parties, and by the way, this isn't the US, and by the way, this excuse does not fly), which I also complained about a long time ago? I see no other relations to me.

[Junpei]

Vi, I'm confused as to why there are things which were said in your Penn Teller QT which you don't wish to disclose. My confusion stems from your, what seems to be, full transparency aside from the specifics of your suspicion on GNR, of whom you are pushing a lynch on. If he's getting lynched and you've claimed, why not tell us the whole story?

[Junpei]

I fail to see how you can turn down my request as rolefishing. What I believe is the leading wagon is largely based off of what Vi says is going on in a QT only her and the wagoned have access to. I know Vi has a reputation as a great player, but I am not so bold as to throw my faith to her. This whole business seems suspicious to me, and you could at least be more specific in terms of scumhunting and reasons. You don't need to go, "he said <insert exact quote here>". Rather I would appreciate a more detailed paraphrase of what happened.

[Junpei]

If there is a town vig they need to claim right now.

Woa, why would you make that statement?

[Junpei]

Something's not adding up, just trust me. I can't proceed with anything unless we confirm whether or not there's a vig.

I'm having the same issue here that I'm having with Vi's reasoning to lynch Riggs. This is all blind faith. I believe you to be town, but I've been fooled before, and blind faith is blind faith. You can't be anymore specific? I don't want vig outing yet, we have 11 days and you need to provide more reasoning. Like I said to Vi, no need to fold your hand, but a little more information for us to work with would be nice.

[Junpei]

Alright, finally have some time:

My thoughts on this scenario are that I'm a bit frustrated that I'm not in this 3 way neighborhood pipeline. Although from what Vi says, her hypothesis will be proven true or untrue with time, so given that, I think an anxiety lynch holds more water. Although to be honest, even before that hypothesis announcement, I don't think that I'd lynch GNR simply because of your word. I will say that I knew about the bullet trick (allbeit not that it was Penn and Teller who did it) but not about the way that they talk.

Vi, I don't understand your Crab Canon vote, especially given that fish has claimed RB on anxiety whom is scummy as it is. As such, I'd like to know why you find anxiety to be more town than crab canon. I see that you have made a good case as to why Crab Canon is a better vote than GNR, however I'd like to know why given what we know, how he is better than anxiety.

[Junpei]

First off, CC, your bit about those being raw notes and your interpretations therefore being suffice is wrong. When you do PBP you need links to the post so that we can cross reference every post with ease. The way you have it laid out makes it very hard to discern what you're talking about and forces us to open up more tabs and flip between them to read. What I'm trying to say is: Saulres has every right to be upset with your interpretation of the facts.

Saulres, I am wondering how you have CC does as very likely to be scum as well, however you have 5 null reads? Now, granted, I don't have strong reads on everyone in this game either, but you did say "leaning town" on both Vi and Locke. Seems like you aren't confident in anyone as town thus far.

Other things I noticed...
this post by Saulres was very helpful and towny. I have been confused with what was going on with the whole Vi/GNr/Ace shenanigans, but that really helped to clear it up. It's bad enough that Vi's posts are annoying to read, let alone this whole series of events, but this uncomplicated it, and I see no scum motive for that.

This post by fish is strange, I mean if Vi is telling the truth, two kills went off. Does Fish believe that he RB'd anxiety from shooting off a THIRD kill? I believe Anxiety is scum, but not for this ridiculous reason.

pedit: Saulres, I'm going to look more into this when I have time, gotta go for now.

[Junpei]

Yes, this. It's much more probable that scum was blocked than that they happened to shoot a bulletproof player.

Lol what? Now I know there are a lot of possible variables to account for, but given that there are (X+1) players, and a RB and a bp (the assumption you are making), the chances are equal. 1/X, to be exact.

Crab Canon, this is a no reveal game, and a claim could potentially help town quite a lot. There is no harm in prolonging the lynch by a few hours when I'm around checking the thread constantly ready to hammer if someone wants to blitz day 1 for some reason. A claim would have been very helpful in the event that spring flips town (however unlikely). That was my logic, along with the fact that people indicated that they were going to post before the deadline and several hadn't.

[Junpei]

I think anxiety's point is that you did not give your reads from day 1, and so he just went through and marked everything day 1 that indicated a read so that you could make a day 1 reads list I think. Although reading it it looks like you felt Vi, Anxiety, Sotty were scum with suspicion on GNR and CC.

I'm not sure if there's more to this or not though, I mean, why make a huge post on this, I'd still like anxiety to announce is full point.

[Junpei]

Don't understand your first 3 other than you don't agree with me, but as far as the last one goes, I see now what you mean I think. Since there is more than 1 scum, the odds of hitting you (if you were hit/are town) are actually higher than if scum being RB'd. So Saulres' point of "better chance of RB than BP" is worse than before.

[Junpei]

When did I express intent to hammer Ace? In this post (this is the only post I can see the misinterpretation happening) I meant that I'd insta-hammer on spring if someone voted Ace.

[Junpei]

Also, saying "strong scum read" is a slight misquote, as I said "pretty good scum read". Regardless, I stated that I had just ISO'd spring, and then decided that I found her considerably scummier than Ace, the two lynch choices of the day.

[Junpei]

Yes, that is how I interpreted it.

Well then I'm a bit confused here, what exactly do you mean by "Why you were willing to hammer ace if he was a strong town read for you?"

[Junpei]

The way you implied I interpreted it is the way I interpreted. I thought you were saying you would insta-hammer ace.

Also, really? Are we going to get into semantics here? strong read / pretty good scum read has the same intent. What did you see in her iso that made you certain she was scum?

I wasn't complaining about that, no need to get into semantics, I was simply stating for the record. Anyway, I will go through the ISO again and try to point out what made me sway into a spring hammer later when I get back. Also, for future reference, please link quotes in cases/arguments. This is a bit off topic but I just figured that since this conversation is stalling for some hours, that I"d throw this in there.

[Junpei]

I concur, if Riggs is indeed SK, then by your logic we should know that through the Night Kills, as there will be more than as if there was just the factional kill of scum. Also... it is "Amrun" and "Junpei", but that aside, you think that an SK is paired with a (by your reads) town person in a private QT? I find that to be a bit stacked against the SK, as long as we are speculating.

Also, are you an open, semi-open, or closed hydra?

[Junpei]

Shift, I was referring to will each post have the identity of a separate head, or will you post as one brain?

I do not find two BP town neighbors to be inherently OP, as the setup really dictates how much that is powerful. I do believe an SK trapped in a neighbor QT with a townie like that is a bit disadvantaged as it forces him into the spotlight. As you can see, this is all speculation with no basis or evidence, and it happens to be the reasoning behind you wanting Riggs dead. Although it's hard to tell to what degree that is by your post.

[Junpei]

First show of scumhunting is a bit odd. Showing distaste for RQS + having a 2010 join date = town? His reasoning is generic to players as a whole, not to alignment at all, and leaves me scratching my head. Basically, looks like fake scumhunting.

Questions Vi about her post restriction; which would be fine if it hadn't been the case that on the last page, I did the same thing, and was faced with "modkill lazers!!". Scum trying to fit in, perhaps?

Town reads on me and Saulres? How? I'm not saying that it is crazy to think she does, but there is no explanation whatsoever in this post. Fake scumhunting.

Votes GNR, which is okay I suppose, just page 7 and putting pressure on those with less content is good. But the rest of the post is kind of meaningless and tries to express reads. Given the stamp on this post (3 days since) I am thinking that this was just a prod dodge post to stay in the game.

After 3 prod dodge posts, we get content again (it has been a full week) and I like it aside from the "reversed chainsaw defense", which makes no sense. But a good post.

He has kept his vote on GNR throughout the game with "scummiest lurker" and has not had to comment on much else as a result.

PBP is bad for reasons stated. Essentially no links, highly interpretative, and stops when he thinks someone is town. Also if he had been taking those notes, like the first sentence implied, then why hadn't it influenced his vote at all?

That's it, I believe. Also sorry for not posting this some hours ago, I fell asleep while I was starting. I could do one on Ace too I suppose if you want, although it is pretty cut and dry. He's just been scumhunting throughout the whole game, and the only thing that brings real question to that read is the shenanigans with Vi and GNR, but at the end of the day, he is still a strong town read.

[Junpei]

A response to Crab Canon, yes.

[Junpei]

Not anything to comment on? Really? How about your reads, how about some of the interactions the past few pages at least have shown? The former is more important than the latter.

[Junpei]

Why did you just make a case on dead town, junpei?

Read closer, Amrun, and you'll notice that I was responding to Crab Canon's question as to my thought process in deciding that I'd hammer on spring instead of joining the Ace wagon at the end of Day 1.

[Junpei]

The person with the highest average rating amongst the three, I would say. That is to say, that the user with the most in each 3 category.

[Junpei]

1) I'd like you to clarify. Are those 4 people you have scum reads on or people you don't have town reads on? Specifically I'm asking if your list is primarily process of elimination or direct scumhunting.

2) Given that of those 4 there are 2 scum, and you think GNR is scum, and that there are as you say 3 anti town roles, that means that you must be quite confident in your town reads of the other 5 players. To have it narrowed down to 2 of 4 like that, I can't see any other way except for confidence in your town reads, which your hydra seems to conflict on. Essentially I"d like you to comment on this observation.

[Junpei]

Hm, alright, well two more things I'd like to note:

1) What is Regfan's read on Fishy independent of his claim?

2) When you ISO saulres, if you go in looking to solidify your town read, you'll find him town. I think you'll probably find him to be town regardless, I haven't done an ISO check myself, but town should have an open eye and your post seemed like you trust Regfan more than you trust your ability to find something he didn't.

[Junpei]

Could you post how you came to the conclusions you did in Scenario's A and B? Also you don't account for every possibility in your scenarios. Or even the likely ones by your apparent standards. Although I could be not fully understanding your hypothesis, so I'd like you to answer my first question before anything else.

[Junpei]

It is the claim itself which could hurt town. If you are town, then not lynching you today reveals to scum 1 role, which narrows down other possible PRs and otherwise helps scum.

[Junpei]

let's look at it this way:

given my posts this game i highly doubt scum think i am a pr so im just giving them information they already have whereas town get more info from the reactions( or lack thereof) to my claim.

So you based your claim off of scum knowing that you are a VT?

Ugh, whatever, hopefully Shift and Amrun will return to the thread soon to move this game past this awful occurrence.

[Junpei]

I'm not sure as to how to respond to most of that post, but I can respond to the final paragraph.

If you had asked me for my thought process on the spring lynch vote, then I would have done the very same thing. I did not post this immediately because it was not something I had written up, rather things that I had noticed. I also believe that you are over-complicating the way in which I posted my analysis. It is a list of points, not a convoluted thought process by any means.

As for my stances on the Vi/Riggs/Ace shenanigans, I did give some stances, although they were more scumhunting statements other than definitive statements. But there isn't too much to take a stance on. As far as I can see, this is all just setup speculation, and really we have nothing more to go on than what is being funneled from Ace, Vi, and GNR. There is not much to go on, and I would not like to act upon the mechanical events that have been claimed to have transpired.

[Junpei]

..No one died?

vote anxiety

This seems like the best choice for the day.

[Junpei]

It doesn't, I'm just surprised that no one died.

Are we really going to play the probability game? A scum team I was on won the game because all of our slots lurked hard and town said "do you really think that all scum are lurkers?". It was an unpleasant win, but town lost.

[Junpei]

so you think anxiety has a connection to GNR or you're just voting him for the same reasons as yesterday?

I still need to look at their interactions, but I will. I cannot think of a better lynch though right now anyway.

pedit: Luxury, explain.

[Junpei]

I just got back from somewhere, and I'm sort of just refreshing threads at the moment, busied with other issues, I'll get around to reading though, don't you worry. I put up my vote to remind people where I stand. Do you really have an issue with my vote?

[Junpei]

Wait Vi, is the main point in your "fish is scum" argument that there are two shooters? SK and Mafia?

pedit: Ace did say that he was one-shot and I didn't notice Riggs flip name. But even now: why would Vi bus Riggs in this manner, knowing that he was not Penn?

[Junpei]

ce did say that he was one-shot

Oh I see. I thought the one-shot meant he could only pull in one person, not that he could only pull in one person

and

only for one day.

Oh wait. No, I don't believe he said that.. That's actually surprising... why would the neighborhood only last one phase? Ace, did you point this out or is it correct that you ignored this detail? Or at least, didn't tell town.

[Junpei]

Are you saying that Fishy is SK/RB? Are you saying that you think there is another reason scum seems to not have been killing? I am really confused here and this is turning into a lot of setup speculation. I don't see how this implicates Fishy.

pedit: Ace, she thinks that there is a third party, but not SK? While possible, I don't see how one could reach that specific conclusion.

[Junpei]

Oh, you're saying Fish's RB claim was a scum move to try to stop the lynch on GNR, and that... scum is purposefully not killing to solidify is claim?

pedit: Ace, she said that there was 1 third party and 2 more scum left, and you said "no SK, but vig?" and then I asked a rhetorical question to the effect of "I doubt that is what she means".

[Junpei]

Ugh, Vi your gun act makes me think Saulres is right, but I went to the bottom of 961 and I don't get the feeling that you're saying yes to saulres, seeing as you did not nod. We should have kept GNR alive just so that we could interpret this shit.

I don't understand the cereal thing at all, someone explain it please.

[Junpei]

So... the first kill was from... SK? And you think... I don't know what you think. So the first gun = SK/mafia (confirm which?), I'm assuming SK because it shoots n1 and SK may want to shoot mafia I suppose. And then scum shot last night you think and.. shot the SK?

[Junpei]

Okay so BP SK, GNR, Fish, X, mafia, and I still don't see how Fish is so implicated by this. Unless you're speculating that given this many kills/BPs that it is unlikely there is a RB?

[Junpei]

Vote: Fishy

So you blocked Salurus because you thought he might be scum? Why not block Anxiety again whom you supposedly caught before? The only thing in your ISO indicative of this is a 'lurker scum' tag on Saulres. Is that all that swayed your RB off of someone whom you seemed to have RB'd? I'll await your response to Vi's case.

[Junpei]

Saulres claimed Vig? I can't see two town vigs in the same setup, so I'm going to claim Vigilante here.

N1 I shot Sotty
N2 I shot Anxiety

I have a tiger named Montecore, whom I can kill someone with. But my role is a bit odd in some respects.

I'm compulsive (have to shoot every night)
I was told that there were

any amount of factors

that could affect my kill such that my kill doesn't kill my target, or possibly kills someone else. The bold is what caught my eye early on, and is what has had me confused on the setup from the getgo. But now with 2 BP claims and a JK claim, it confuses me quite less. However... possibility of killing someone else is yet to be explained, and I suspect that mafia have a driver of some sort.

Also, I see that Saulres nameclaimed, so I suppose I should. I am Roy Horn. I don't know much about Magicians at all, in fact I didn't even know that Seigfried and Roy had a tiger until this game. But, I suppose it makes sense that if Vi is town (and I really think she is) that this is the case as well. Penn and Teller (famous duo) has 1 scum 1 town (seemingly), and Seigfried and Roy (famous duo) has 1 scum and 1 town, respectively.

vote saulres

I really don't see two vigilantes being town with scum, just makes no sense.

Also fishy going "yeah I'm very scummy, but.. yeah" is definitely not making him look any better. But we need to lynch saulres today.

[Junpei]

Alright, I guess that given that interpretation it is possible that we are both town. I'm not sure to what degree that is, but if it is as you say, it is a theory we can test tonight, although we'd have to direct our kills in public.

vote fishy

Back to my original vote.

Oh yes, and for the record, is this Luxury-Regfan, Luxury-shift, or Luxury-hivemind?

[Junpei]

If the mod consents, I will. As for proof of me being vig? Well, I didn't breadcrumb. I'm very hesitant when it comes to that, and don't see much reason to. I mean there are two facts about breadcrumbing that make it seem poor to me:

1) Either it is clear enough, and scum could see it and you're compromised

2) It is very cryptic, and it could easily be scum laying tracks for a prior claim.

Breadcrumbing proves nothing, and is potentially risky.

Here I expressed surprise that no one died, and made a point of noting it, which most people really didn't do. Scum kill + vig kill = 0 kill? I mean, sure my shot may have been stopped, but I shot a VT-claim, so it makes less sense.

As for anything else... not really, but Vi's theory made sense to me when I replaced SK with Vig because I did shoot sotty to catch scum, so it made her Fishy case hold more water with me, if the contradictions and Fishy's response aren't enough. You may see this thought process if you read my other posts from this day.

[Junpei]

I think any mass claim should include the character name, and it should start with Fishy.

Agree with starting with Fishy now that you bring it up, Fishy only "partially claimed", only makes sense to have Fishy, who is also the leading wagon, finish their claim first.

[Junpei]

Penn and Teller (famous duo) has 1 scum 1 town

Oh, and Junpei? GNR wasn't Penn.

True, I forgot again. It really makes no sense to me. Vi doing what she did as scum just makes so little sense that I can't see a Penn Teller double fakeclaim in a setup where those are likely roles. So I guess that that theory is out the window, but it was just setup speculation anyway without much water.

So Saulres, your assumptions aren't really absolutes, but what I want to make sure is, do you also claim to control this Montecore?

[Junpei]

Town RB = JK? At any rate, that's just what stuck in my mind.

@saulres: If only one of our kills goes through? I would think that it requires us to agree, if this is true, then one of us not killing is the same as us not agreeing, thus a kill not going through. If we lynch Fish, and barring anything big coming from roleclaims, I would much like to shoot Anxiety in case you don't know that.

[Junpei]

Snake: Full claim when you get back

Fishy: You pretty much full claimed earlier except for a nameclaim which we never actually decided on doing. You implied you had more /abilities/ earlier, at least that's how I read it and probably others. Also you think that the SK has a kill which is dependent on a townie in some manner? I really doubt that Saulres is SK, in fact, independent of my town read on him, I would say that there is no way he is SK, that's a silly notion.

Vi: I'm guessing two things: One you think it's odd that I called him a town RB. I just called his claim a town RB because I do not think that he claimed scum RB. Or perhaps you're confused of the terminology of Epicmafia, in which case there are two roleblockers, Drunk is standard style, and JK (jailer) chooses at the end of the day, and gets a conversation with their choice at night. The latter ability obviously doesn't apply here, but JK - Roleblock are two things I associate with each other.

Why are you mad that Amrun claimed VT?

[Junpei]

Oh, I just made the connection, I forgot that Amrun was called "He's Amazing". Amrun does need to explain this.

[Junpei]

Alright... a few things:

@Amrun is The Amazing an ability, passive, restriction, triggered, other, or purely flavor? Keep in mind that when I say purely flavor, I mean is it only in your name?

@Saulres that cop breadcrumb seems like a stretch to me. I mean, where did you pick those words out from? Breadcrumbs don't mean much regardless, but I find it strange that you say to have picked out the crumb a long time ago.

Crab Canon claims to have no passively ability and be a VT. This means that it is quite likely that The Amazing does SOMETHING if it is not flavor.

[Junpei]

Amrun you haven't really said anything meaningful on the slot (Shift/Luxury) since... well, since the earliest parts of the game. I looked through your ISO and I don't see much pertaining to the slot which holds one of your strongest scumreads (assuming 2nd since I'm apparently obvscum). Perhaps a reread of the facts is in order for you?

[Junpei]

Amrun, specific examples.

[Junpei]

Saulres, I got that we aren't killing Anxiety if/when Fishy flips scum. As for who would be my second choice, I'm not sure yet to be honest, but I have to think either Amrun or Snake.

There's some great points on Amrun around here, and his death would help I think anyway, especially considering he claimed VT (+amazing).

Snake hasn't posted much so I wouldn't at this juncture shoot him, but if the lurkiness continues, I'd be fine with it.

Ace: The RB Anxiety sequence makes /sense/, but only in the context of that vacuum. Scum + Vig + SK = so few kills? Yes I know that sometimes scum don't have kills, but I'm not assuming that until we get an SK flip.

[Junpei]

Yeah I forgot he was a rolecop when I posted that. I guess my vote is currently on Amrun then.

[Junpei]

1155 is Vi's post. Furthermore it basically says two things:

1) That it may be against mod rules to out post numbers or relative numbers to the QT (or perhaps Vi has already confirmed it is)

2) That point is a red herring, essentially Vi says that it is a dead lead.

[Junpei]

but I can't understand why it would have been permissible for Ace to post direct quotes of her talking normally but not for her to indicate a number and nothing more.

Well yeah... this fact seems to implicate GNR/Ace/Vi, and I'm keeping my eye out for that scum team (I highly doubt it is that, but of all the possible combination, that is the most deadly). Obviously the point I'm saying is that if those quotes were faked, then it would make sense for Vi not to be able to directly reference her QT.

So, Vi, answer the mans' question.

[Junpei]

OH. GNR never claimed Penn in the QT you mean?

[Junpei]

He claimed what he flipped, he claimed Sylvia Brown?

[Junpei]

That's -- not very conclusive.

What I'd like to know, however you can indicate it, is when in your QT with GNR he claimed to be Penn Jillette, before or after you claimed Teller, how long before/after (post numbers), etc.

vi, this is the post you are responding to, correct? I fail to see how DDD relates to this. My final guess before I wait till someone else comes and deciphers it/you are more clear to me (not a fault of your own, probably) is that the mod won't let you reference the QT anymore because GNR died.

[Junpei]

Oh, sorry.

GNR did not claim Penn, and was in fact not Penn but rather Sylvia Browne. He never claimed Penn to you because his role PM said Sylvia Browne. Also that he lied about his name in thread.

Also you want Fishy lynched and Amrun vigged, both ideas I can endorse.

[Junpei]

If you are

1) Unsure of your reads

2) Suspicious of someone who is read as town to many

Then why did you hammer already?

[Junpei]

I would agree that we all believe Fishy to be scum, and I fully expect him to flip as such... however the hammer does something which is key:

It ends the day quickly

I would much rather like to discuss your reads with you, and understand your thought process and handle on the game, than go into night at this juncture. But perhaps you can grant such privy to me now?

[Junpei]

Okay, always do was Luxury does, surely he is always right.

Regardless, assume Fish flips scum, who is his last scum pal?

[Junpei]

4 - 5 scum in a 13 player game?

3-10 is basic balance, and we don't seem to have roles so far out that would imply more. Although I suppose an SK/third party theory could imply more. I don't know how I feel about the idea of a 4 man informed minority, nevermind a 5.

I don't understand your scum reads that much, Snake, care to explain?

[Junpei]

Saulres, I'm leaving very soon (20 minutes), and I haven't had time to review Amrun, I do know that I felt the case was good though. At the bare basic of it all though, if Fishy flips scum, then we can afford to shoot off one of towns' top suspects I think. But I'll try to do a quick look.

[Junpei]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 5#p3515905
and
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 9#p3515839

Sum it up nicely in my opinion. Amrun had very strange, contradictory activity during the GNR lynch, Amrun has made a habit of procrastinating when asked to explain his reads as well. Also Amrun, while calling the Luxury/swift slot very scummy, has not mentioned them much at all this game, and that combined with no reasoning is not a good townie make.

So, I would shoot Amrun.

[Junpei]

Night as in gamenight? Because Saulres we should be shooting the same person. If you are right now going to do a detailed summation then do so and POST IT IN THE THREAD. Because I am about to leave and doubt I'll be back before night starts. Although I'm not sure what could derail us from an Amrun shot, if there is something powerful that makes you change your mind, you need to give a good reasoning for it, and say who you are shooting. I would rather have it be the case that you misdirect our shot and hit town than it be the case that no shot goes off from not aligning our shot. We need to find out more of this 1/2 vig set roles and we cannot waste an opportunity to do so.

[Junpei]

I targeted Amrun as planned. Either Saulres is lying or there are forces at work that we don't know about. I only consider the latter because I don't find saulres to be scum. I'd say possible scum-redirect, but I want saulres to out who he targeted last night.

[Junpei]

Well... the rolecop seems to be weak, as it only gives one ability, and it returned vote. So, if you are scum, I wouldn't be surprised if your role PM had a vote ability, I mean scum have to vote, right? So just because you were rolecopped once does not mean that you can't be again.

Amrun is still the main person I'd support investigation on, but I wouldn't do it yet, I want to hear back from saulres. Also how is that a scumslip Anxiety?

pedit: Saulres, I wasn't under that implication at all. Also

>scum redirected the tiger from 4nxi3ty to Vi, and shot Ace

The issue here is that I shot Amrun, are you saying that your shot overrides mine? I don't understand. I do know that somehow, even though we targeted different people, a third person was killed as a result, judging by the flavor. I also suspect a redirect from scum.

[Junpei]

Saulres, yeah I wanted to kill Anxiety, but toward the end of the day, I was just in the mindset of shooting Amrun, I don't know what to say, I remember getting back to my computer, seeing the day over, and then submitting my tigervig onto Amrun. Everyone was vying to vig Amrun, no one really discussed what to do in the event of Fishy town-flip, I don't know what else to say.

Anxiety, it makes sense because it fits, really. Just read Luxury's post, it pretty much explains it.

[Junpei]

Oh, also I just had an idea.

We could rolecop who we are going to lynch before we lynch them, so that in the event they flip scum, we have some rolespecs possibly (no reveal and all), or we could lynch X and cop Y to try and catch Y lying, and if we can't, stick with X. I'm in opinion of the latter, and that is my rational on Amrun investigation. I don't think anyone else is a better candidate, oh and:

vote Anxiety

[Junpei]

Amrun... read what I wrote to Anxiety please.

Also, Saulres I don't know if we should assume that our tiger eats through bulletproof, although if it did then that really makes things interesting. Saulres if you're speculating SK, then who is the SK? Because Luxury's speculation still works with SK-Anxiety I believe. Although in that case, mafia would have to have no kill.

[Junpei]

I use scum, mafia, and coven interchangeably. The third much less so, but yeah.

SK kill on Vi isn't too bizarre to consider. I mean, if they were intentionally holding it, that's where they'd put it, or perhaps to cause confusion. Speculating too much into night kills as far as motive goes is hard. We can try to do town/anti-town motives, but differentiating between SK and scum is tough.

Saulres, the theory makes sense except for the fact that we shot different people and somehow killed Vi. The theory of "they shot different people, didn't go through" seems to hold less water. I think that it has to do with scum redirect and "The Amazing", but I have no idea how.

[Junpei]

Okay Anxiety, that's enough. Stop playing the harp and play the game. You obviously are not giving up or you'd self-vote/replace out, so post content.

Amrun's play here isn't the big scumslip you thought Saulres, at least I don't see it that way.

Possibilities:
- Amrun did not know that anyone other than Saulres voted Anxiety

If this is the case, then it is logical to assume that, given that Amrun likes to wagon hop (can someone do a VCA to confirm this? I will later if no one does; that is to say, one specific to Amrun), she'd vote Anxiety. You quoted a post where Amrun said that she'd not vote Junpei as no one would go with her. This seems to reason that she goes for the 'scumread' lynch which is most likely, and given that, it is not hard to consider that town-Amrun would vote Anxiety.

The other possibility is that Amrun committed a common scumtell of wagon jumping to try to a) blitz on possible MYLO b) stack onto town, and then use the "too pro to be noob" argument, or perhaps it was a genuine mistake. I don't accept that meta argument as an excuse for anything, but I see no reason to differ to an Amrun lynch over an Anxiety lynch.

[Junpei]

1) Why is Anxiety voting Crab Canon, I don't understand?

2) I agree that there is a decent case on Amrun, but I believe that given what we can hypothesise about the setup, and given what Anxiety has said/done, he is a more viable lynch.

Snake, you need to take take and post content period.

[Junpei]

Why should we not think that two scum were premiere wagons of a given day? Coincidence or is there a good reason?

[Junpei]

Setal Speed Mafia is where town said "no way could all 3 mafia of hardlurked and not voted the days' main and pretty much only premier wagon day 1. Yet that's exactly what happened.

Also, scum never bus, right Crab Canon?

[Junpei]

Okay, sure, it is improbable but not impossible. However the weight of the validity of "there were two main scum wagons day X(i forget the day it was)" appears to have the same truth value as "Anxiety is scum". And placing (on a scale of 0 to 10) a value of 2 or so on the former, is doing the same to the latter, which I can not agree with(I'd put something like 8 to the truth value of the latter statement). So, it would stand to reason that either it is possible for a statement to have two conflicting truth values (hint: it's not) or your reasoning is flawed.

Re: Bussing; fair enough.

As far as Ace dismantling the wagon; Crab Canon is obviously right, it was much more of an effort by them rather than Ace that got the wagon started.

[Junpei]

Oh god, hydra dissonance is confusing.

I'm engulfed in another game right now, but I'm going to check out this dissonance myself to ensure its validity, this would certainly be a nice slip if it is true, but it is confusing so I'll wait till I analyze it more.

[Junpei]

Okay, wow. Uh, I don't know what to say, these are contradictory statements regarding the thought process of the hydra.

I guess the reason I'm so surprised is that Juls and VP are considered good players, and these are huge slips.

vote CC

This is L-1, so everyone now is aware of that.

[Junpei]

unvote

[Junpei]

Okay, just remembered it could be MYLO and Crab Canon's post promises more explanation.

A few things:

1) Scum slips have no motivation, the idea is that you aren't really scumhunting, just faking it, and thus forgot.

2) Why do you have hydra dissonance at all when you promised having none? You guys also dont' always sign posts when you talk in 1st person, 3rd person, and it is very confusing.

3) Detailed timeline that you think will clear your name of this contradiction? Do it. This is why I unvoted.

pedit: I do believe you did, and I think that using that as a town tell is wifom, busses happen and what not.

[Junpei]

Saulres, one thing that we could do is try to make it such that what happens like what happened Night 2 occurs, that is to say that our vig shot does not go through. Of course we'd have to understand the tiger mechanic. The fact that Vi died instead of Amrun or Anxiety makes me confused. But right now this is my best idea for not killing and is also the safest, since we don't know each others' alignments.

You target me, I target you.

We have supposedly seen the following:

Same target, kill
Different target, no kill
Different target, kill third person

So, our best shot at no kill is to target different people, and if you are scum, then you won't target yourself so that I kill you, you have no choice but to comply and shoot at me.

There may, however, be a piece of the puzzle which we have not deciphered yet. Furthermore I am considering the possibility that when we targeted different people n2, we actually hit Vi, not scum. If this is the case then I'm not sure how we can possibly stop the vig shot from going off.

Okay, I just did a complete circle, basically I'm concluding that there's no way we can know that we can stop the vig shot, so we should plan to lynch a scummy candidate, I think.

pedit: We're compulsive, if you'll recall. Also if I assume that Saulres is scum and is lying about everything, then I cannot theorize at all, besides, even implying truth I've come to the conclusion which basically says agree to shoot scummy player X.

[Junpei]

Saulres, that explanation would be bastard though, wouldn't it? I mean, hiding a core mechanic of the role like that from the player?

[Junpei]

OH wait, crap, I forgot you claimed RB.

So then if you're telling the truth it likely goes

Same person: kill
Different person: kill 3rd party
One person is RB'd: no kill

So we could probably not discuss our kills in thread and still get a shot off, it's just less reliable. This explanation also doesn't require there to be a scum redirector. I don't know, this seems most likely, I mean wouldn't a driver basically switch actions on two people? So how would that align us onto Vi? Even if you're lying, and voted Vi, doesn't a redirector have to know where I'm going, which you didn't seem to know?

[Junpei]

Yeah, this speculation is pretty ridiculous to me, lets keep it to ourselves again unless we have a break through, and I'll keep my choice on who to vig when the time comes a secret.

Saulres; I meant RB as in roleblocked.

[Junpei]

Actually Saulres, I haven't been using them, mostly because I honestly have found that they haven't been useful to me as much as they were initially the first time. But on the other hand, I tend to get lazy and not actively use them most of the time anyway.

When I have time, I'll ISO people with their answers in mind, and see what I find; thanks for reminding me.

No one ever did give a serious answer to my poem other than "shut up you are a bad poet", which I am...

[Junpei]

Saulres: Your RQS really tells me that you are exactly as you seem. Very analytical, and with that logical. I don't even need to ISO you because I can just remember the last few pages. Your answers were so very basic and typical that I have to infer from the first 3 questions that you analyze and use logic primarily.

Crab Canon: I really have no clue how I can use these on a hydra who shifted through ownership several times, practices hydra dissonance, and.. well, is a hydra.

Shift: Says that he reacts only... but uses those answers to anticipate my supposed move of "NO ANSWER U SCUM". Strange contradiction, which could be explained as scum trying to fabricate an appearance/answers. There's a split in the persona that I would have guessed from his answers and his actions. He doesn't seem to use gut like he says he's going to in the first page. I just don't see it at all. His lazy factor is prevalent though for sure, he's busy a lot and ends up replacing out. Question 4 turned out to be a lot more wifom than I had hoped. In fact its only use really is getting reactions from people saying that scum will act like typical town, which is just wifom as defined, as it is an inverse town tell (not doing what town would do, but town would do X, but then scum would do X to seem town.. etc).

So not really much at all indicative of alignment and I can't do this on the hydra at all, but got a weird contradiction. Shift, care to explain?

Snake: Never answered them; not that Locke did either.

Eh, it was worth the read I think.

[Junpei]

Oh I see now, Crab Canon is using hydra dissonance as reason for waffling on reads.

See, the thing here is a town hydra with issues could have those flip-floppy reads, but scum could also just be being noncommitable by abusing the hydra aspect of the slot.

I don't like dysfunctional looking hydras, I can't tell what's going on in your head. Regardless I'm going to wait for the timeline which hopefully with come tomorrow.

[Junpei]

I can't really make a good decision until you do your timeline, as I can't really follow the whole "Juls gone, VP gone, here, discussed, gone, solo not gone, solo" craziness. I think your time is better spent doing the timeline than responding to Anxiety, and I know that will take time, which is why I expressed willingness to wait.

Also =.= >mfw the other hydra in this game is also partly dysfunctional. Regfan I'd rather you just post on your own to be honest than wait around for Shift at this point.

[Junpei]

antagonistic is my interpretation and hardly any kind of buzzword. I do think their posts were antagonistic. This game is about giving interpretations and I don't think it's unfair of me to say I feel that way about specific posts. I also don't think saying they misrepresented something is a buzzword either because I backed it up with a quote from me that pretty much contradicts what they claimed I said.

Using buzzwords like semantics argument and strawmanning without providing concrete examples of how I am doing those things is different from what you are saying there.

Were there any other places you felt I twisted their words?

This is the whole quote... and it is in response to Anxiety asking if antagonistic and misrepresenting are buzzwords.

How about we all stop asking Vi about her post restriction in an effort to get her modkilled?

It's pretty obvious what her restriction is, and there is nothing she can do about it. If you can't figure it out on your own, then that's your problem. Regardless of her alignment, baiting for modkills is dirty pool. So, knock it off.

Explain to me how that is unclear in any way, shape or form. Even drawing a picture would make that less clear than it already is.

Whenever you're ready to answer this, that'd be great. You can malign my name all you'd like and say I'm arguing semantics, but if you can't actually prove your point, then I don't see how you feel you're actually scumhunting.

For those of you following at home not so closely, this is the interaction:

Sottyrulez: CC was trying to get people to stop communicating with Vi.
CC: I don't see how what I said could have been interpreted that way.
Sottyrulez: I see how it could. You were saying to stop talking about her post restriction like it was a bad thing, implying you knew for sure she was telling the truth.
CC: Please show me where I said to stop talking to her.
Sottyrulez: LOL SEMANTICS
CC: What? Here's the quote where I explicitly said, let's not push on the post restriction she said she could get modkilled over. I think that goes against the integrity of mafia.
Sottyrulez: CC just wants to argue. LYNCH NAO.

and etc. Your complete and utter refusal to back anything up with logic shows you got in too deep with a bad argument, as scum are wont to do. I think I've given you plenty of chances to admit you simply misinterpreted what I wrote. Now you're actively misrepresenting it and painting it like I'm trying to malign your name through jedi mind tricks. I've directly quoted what I said and expressed how it is completely clear. Unless you can do the same, you're just puffing hot air.

Here is the full quote which Anxiety is saying contradicts the previous statement.

In an attempt to clarify his argument, I think that he means that CC found it scummy that sotty interpreted their posts in a way different than he meant, and that's not okay. But it is okay when CC interprets sotty's posting as 'antagonistic'.

Is this what you mean? If it is then you are REALLY snipping posts and making it very unclear. This is actually a decent point, and something CC should respond to, but just looking at your post there's no way I could have understood what you meant.

[Junpei]

I never got the impression that CC was responding to your "please provide specific examples" with "misrepping me so hard", rather that they were responding to your actual case with that.

It went like this I think:

>anxiety:"anxiety case on CC"
>CC:"Misrepped me so hard"
>anxiety:"specific examples please"
>CC:"I'll make a timeline to show you but im busy right now"

Does that perhaps clear it up for you? Because I think that you are not understanding what is being said.

[Junpei]

Ugh, fine, I'll do a full reincarnation of the conversation since it was so shitty and we clearly need consensus.

>Anxiety:"GNR scum with CC because reason X"
>CC:"We pushed hard on GNR, we turned the town onto him, lol we're not his scumpal"
>Anxiety:"No, you did not! Others had indicated the willingess to kill GNR prior!"
>CC:"But we made the first legit case on it, we were the driving force!"
>Anxiety:"Look at all of this contradictions in what CC is saying on her GNR read!"
>CC:"Ugh, no, I meant night 1 not end of day 1... I could make timeline if I had time to explain this supposed dissonance"
>Junpei:"Could you?"
>CC:"Yes, okay, when I have time, perhaps sunday"

>Anxiety:"{I don't understand #7 so I'm going to ask for clarification} and AtE!"
>CC:"Your argument {I'm assuming the one about GNRs' interaction with CC = CC scum} has nothing to do with the timeline, it is not needed to prove that point wrong!"
>Saulres:"Clarify your case for me, Anxiety"
>Anxiety:"gnr being reluctant to label cc as scum is a minor factor, there were many; the main ones being the 1v1 with sottyrulez, your provocation, and cc's bus of gnr. = clarification on my case"
>CC:"You're misrepping me by selective quoting and snipping!{I assume that this will be further substantiated on with the timeline} You are twisting my words!"
>Anxiety:"Oh so it's not okay when I interpret your posts how I want to but it's okay when you interpret sotty's posts how you want? Double standard scum!"

God I hope that's right, it sure seems right. Anyway I basically think that we can summize this argument in a few lines:

Need timeline from CC
After.. need clear questions from Anxiety
Second line AFTER first line

[Junpei]

Crab Canon, is the timeline coming along okay?

[Junpei]

Also right now

our

strongest town-read by a long way is Saulres though I still think Junpei is likely town due to the claim as well, mafia having direct control to two kills is incredibly overpowered and inclusion of re-director makes a great deal of sense.

Vote: Amrun

So Shift is back?

Shift: Says that he reacts only... but uses those answers to anticipate my supposed move of "NO ANSWER U SCUM". Strange contradiction..

Please explain this blatant contradiction, Shift.

[Junpei]

well I don't know what works best for you but we really shouldn't keep stalling this... I mean do you think that tonight you could get it done? I don't want to keep pushing this back, as it is of great importance, but I also don't know if I can demand something of you the way things seem to be over there.

One thing is for sure and that is that tomorrow if you don't have the timeline complete I'm voting you until you have it.

Well.. give me a realistic projection of when this can get done, because I'd like to have something to hold BOTH of you to.

[Junpei]

>Will try to get it done tonight

Earlier I got something like

>Will get to it later
>Maybe tomorrow

So you can see why when I saw your post, especially after hearing
>I'm dead tired after a 20 hour drive
and
>busy with work

I immediately got concerned that you wouldn't follow through. But now you've committed to doing it tonight to me, and I can't wait.

[Junpei]

Crab Canon, I believe I stated here that my problem with your dissonance was just a issue I had with hydras, not your alignment.

Anyway thanks for doing that, I'll look into more when I have more time.

[Junpei]

I suppose I can see the angle that gives you that impression, but it is explained by me realizing what you were getting at, and then expressing my disgruntledness with it. First quote isn't me implicating you for it, just stating a fact. If I had said "wow, you're using hydra dissonance as an excuse?" then yes, it'd be condescending, but I did not. Second quote is explaining how it is a null read, and third is just restating my frustration.

[Junpei]

If I support you will you answer my question? I haven't posted it yet, but I will if you agree.

[Junpei]

Alright,

vote CC

My question is:

Throughout this game I've seen places where all you seem to be concerned about is not getting killed. Why, as a VT, are you so concerned about that?

[Junpei]

Would you then classify yourself as a survivalist player, if not in general than in this game, and as such very confident?

[Junpei]

So you are

1) Not classified as survivalist
2) Not classified as very confident
3) A VT
4) Very concerned about dying

You see my confusion, yes? Unless you're saying that your love for the theme outweighs factors 1-3?

[Junpei]

vote anxiety

Very well, dodge my question, so despite being a VT and not a survivalist, and being just somewhat confident, your desire to be in a game with this flavor (flavor which could be adored even from the dead QT) drives you.

I don't see a problem with this actually, it's just your dodging of the admission and trying to squeeze away from this that is unsettling. VTs can not want to die I'm sure.

[Junpei]

Sorry, I left right after I made that, but I wanted to know one more time if your motivation for wanting to be alive so much was the flavor or not. Although specifically I wanted to know its weight, so I asked if it outweighed

1) Not classified as survivalist
2) Being somewhat confident
3) A VT

[Junpei]

I find you more scummy, you're a better lynch. Your early play was very bad, and you've done nothing in memory that could change my mind, and I'm not too fond of your Crab Canon case as I am with their response.

[Junpei]

Anxiety:

Could you briefly repeat your case on saulres, or why you find him to be null leaning scum?

You were most unpleased with Crab Canon's response? Why? I felt their reaction and response to be pretty sincere, and while we cannot confirm it, it would seem more realistic to happen as Regfan (someone who hydras quite frequently) has said that this type of behavior may happen in a town hydra. So given that, I think it is the reaction we look at more than the evidence, and I found the reaction be sincere.

Snake, the clock is set to T-6;8 hours, can't wait.

[Junpei]

I'm not going to go into detail on my thoughts of the Snake case because I want HIM to respond to it, but I am not satisfied with it.

[Junpei]

Explain his thought process in the quotes.

[Junpei]

Saulres' case looks bad.

[Junpei]

We should probably stop setup speculation at this point as we are 3 days from deadline.

I feel like there isn't much information left and people have started going "x is scum" or otherwise repeating themselves.

[Junpei]

First off, on the meta argument, I learned a vaulable lesson that game. A lesson that acting as I did in that game is bad. It had gotten to the point where the thread was growing three times as fast as any other newbie game, and the conversation was 100% me, Link, and Ree. The game itself got messy and so much so for you to where you replaced out. I'm not going to be as insane as I was in that game in this one.

Just because I think Anxiety is scum does not mean that I cannot believe he would bus, or cannot follow his logic. If someone posts something that makes sense to me, I will accept it, and he did. I do not go "but you're scummy so stfu ur wrong automatically". The case was compelling at first, saulres also went with it, but like saulres I eventually backed off it because it didn't seem ideal to me anymore, and I liked your response. You have Saulres down as extremely town, so this should be relevant to you.

My vote put you on L-2, not L-1, so it wasn't a dangerous vote. The reason I did it was so that Anxiety would answer Saulres' question. He wouldn't answer directly to Saulres because of some vendetta he has, but I forced him to respond. The only reason my vote was there was to question Anxiety, and once the questioning was over, I moved my vote onto Anxiety, who I wanted to lynch before the CC case ordeal started.

I already explained my choosing of Amrun. I wanted to follow the plan to make sure that we got the kill in. I thought the plan was to shoot Amrun, I didn't notice that we were shooting Anxiety if Fish flipped town.

So what you're saying in number 3 is that the role mechanic is strange, and therefore I'm mafia because Saulres likely isn't?

I hate hydras in general because they practice hydra dissonance which is annoying and unfair. I wasn't calling you scum based on it.

[Junpei]

Also, if these are your major reasons for suspecting me, then why are they all so recent? I thought that I have been scummy to you the whole game pretty much, shouldn't there be more historic links?

[Junpei]

Saulres I think that the logic is:

Vi had BP
Vi died N3
So during 1of(N1, N2) Vi was shot, making Vi lose BP capabilities, and thus allowing an N3 death.

The only way this is not the case is if 3 shots went off n3, 2 of which hit Vi, or if our vigilante goes through BP vests. The latter is technically possible but seems a lot less plausible, and the former seems ridiculous.

[Junpei]

Hm, I didn't notice that bit in the wiki Saulres. This is interesting. I haven't ever seen any BP that hasn't blocked all night kills on it with 1 shot, but then again, I can't recall seeing any BPs on this site, so perhaps you're right.

Luxury, he's referring to our vig kill, not an SK kill. You have plenty of experience, perhaps you could shed some light on this topic?

[Junpei]

Those four points are all correct as testified by Saulres and I.

The role doesn't suggest I'm not a single vig, so I suppose that it does in a way. Also, you say:

"The Vi kill doesn't add up unless the role said if you disagree then some random third party is killed and that seems pretty bastardly."

Well, considering that no definite rules other than the fact the vig shot is fairly erroneous I don't see why it would specify one rule and not the others. I agree it is a little bastardly, but I am not sure what bastardly means. To my understanding, it is lying to the players, and I don't see reason to believe that, he just withheld information it would seem.

[Junpei]

A don't like to read into night kills much as it is full of WIFOM as you said. He is certainly lurking a lot as we drift to the deadline though. I'd rather lynch someone who I think is scum though. Perhaps when he is replaced we could get a deadline extension? I think that would be best

8.) If a replacement is required within the second week of a deadline period, 24 hours per RL day it takes to find a replacement will be added to the deadline of the current day.

This rule suggests we won't have much time.

11.) If a player fails to pick up their prod within 48 hours they will be replaced.

This rule suggests that Snake has 41 more hours about until he is replaced. So I guess hoping for a replacement isn't going to help since due to the deadline, we'll get... at max 2 days extra? I don't see the replacement coming up with analysis/reads in that short of time and discussion and us deciding if it is town/scum. So I would rather pursue other leads (Anxiety) and hope we hit scum and give the replacement more time that way.

[Junpei]

I'm pretty sure he means that an SK means a nokill mafia, meaning that the other flavor is the SK.

And how confident are we that Riggs had a BP? I thought that he just sorta implied he had one, but never actually claimed BP.

Also Saulres, in that theory, the redirector only makes sense if it targets the person using the action, as otherwise a weak rolecop seems arbitrary. The issue I have with this now that I think about it, is what if a redirector were to target person A who has night ability X, and person B who has no ability? B can't target X.

[Junpei]

We have 65 hours left, so you will post tomorrow, Snake. No more "I'm busy". I was hoping that we'd be able to replace you and get an extension, but if you're going to prod dodge, then you will die.

Also, I am preferring an Anxiety lynch right now, and I don't see a comprehensive case on Amrun ANYWHERE. Can someone please point it out to me, because I would like to see it.

[Junpei]

Saulres, I am not pointing out my issue with your case because I want Snake to respond to it. Any activity at all from snake would be nice actually.

[Junpei]

Saulres, I've said that before too. I said "I do not mind losing if X is town because X has played so poorly". But at the end of the day, I lost, and at the end of the day, I let them get to me.

Never settle for "I'd rather lose to Y than lose to X, so I"m lynching X". I did that for a long time when making tough decisions, and let me tell you, it's never a good thing when scumhunting.

Anyway, it doesn't matter what is wrong with your Snake case at the moment, and I figure at some point during this day he will answer why, and if not, then there is nothing gained from me explaining why.

[Junpei]

Well the main reason I want Snake to answer is because I want content and interaction out of him. Tomorrow I will point out what I don't like about it if he hasn't, I don't know what time, but I will.

[Junpei]

17 hours, and if a stalemate continues with the wagons, I will hammer on Amrun to prevent a no lynch. I still don't see a strong CASE on Amrun, but we need to lynch.

Crab Canon: you're two people; make a case on Amrun.

[Junpei]

Saulres, in 15 hours there is 90% probability that I can log on in hammer. in the next 8ish hours, there is 100% probability. So, I'll probably just come on at t-2 hours, and then if you see that I haven't hammered by t-1hour, then you should hammer unless you want to wait longer.

I'm not saying "you guys now have a shorter deadline", I'm saying, "i'll break the ice and compromise if no one will budge". But, Luxury now says that they will lynch Anxiety, so I would much rather that, so I don't think I need to compromise at all.

pedit: I do feel the same, Saulres.

[Junpei]

Well I get the role PM aspect, and Amrun is not the only viable lynch, so why don't you elaborate on "connections to GNR"?

[Junpei]

I have a question: If Snake and I had won the game the night before day 5, would you have considered it a fair, or earned victory? Would you say that we deserved it?

[Junpei]

Well it was more of an open question for anyone to answer, so by extension, yes you.

[Junpei]

http://www.quicktopic.com/46/H/e7rQaefXDmk

Here's the mafia QT.

I can't remember why I shot you night 2, I'll look it up in my notes though, I think that I thought you were a PR. Gonna check right now.

pedit: or that.

[Junpei]

Oh, I remember now. I used PoE, and tried to keep players who were not too variable in the game and didn't seem as dangerous. Your hydra was a fine candidate.

Vigged you later to push the kill through, but the vig didn't work out.

[Junpei]

I'm going to also say that Saulres should consider staying to play here, as he is someone that I would much enjoy playing with in the future. Perhaps too much setup speculation (it was the speculation that allowed scum to almost win day 4), but he is definitely a good player and shouldn't quit because he lost his motivation in this game. I would be sad, anyway, if he did.

Saulres for this games' Town MVP, easily.

[Junpei]

Saulres, in my first two games on this site, I was sitting in a lecture several days just thinking about possible outcomes and explanations for the games. I think early on this game can really engross you, as it is a huge mental test and lots of fun. Honestly, if I could do it again, I'd take a break after those two games, but I kept playing and while I now easily separate mafia think-time with life, I feel like this game changes the way I think and perhaps who I am.

I suggest that while you are a great player, you might want to take a break from mafia for a period until you get yourself back into the full swing of your life, and then sign up for another game.

Also, I asked that question because I thought the scum team played a very poor game. Good bye, and good luck! This was a great game, bye again everyone.