Secret Society Mafia - Game Over

[PeregrineV]

/confirm

[PeregrineV]

Wanted to vote, Lowell but that is to good to not vote.

Vote MoI.

How do you know (or why do you even believe) there are werewolves here? Selvoting is insane, or a gambit or a joke for someone who is playing with fire. I don't think a scumtell.

II. Setup Rules and Information

1. This setup contains both Mafia and Werewolves.
   
   1. They have daytalk.

Although I'm not sure how a werewolf fits in. Are they like another mafia faction?
pedit-What Ludi said.

Vote: Alabaska

Geographically confusing to me.

[PeregrineV]

Now the question is if you are mafia or werewolf, playing dumb.

Or the question could be this:

Are they like another mafia faction?

It's OK if you don't know, but some people have been playing longer than me and I'm hoping they might.

[PeregrineV]

Pretty much agreeing with MoI on most things, even if not to the same degree.

Unvote
Vote: DavidX

First, an FoS on MoI when there was no reason not to vote.

But then when you give your reason for not voting, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense, because it's a statement that is almost always true. It comes across as you avoiding anything that can be easily spotted later.

Not seeing how BabySpice is scum from the Ludi case.

pedit- lol...MoI is calling him out for it too....

[PeregrineV]

Yes. Because not putting down an instant vote when I'm in the middle of considering other things is bad. Mhmm. That doesn't follow any logical path.

"You're not instantly putting down a vote so you must be avoiding it!"

As opposed to the more logical "You've said you're looking at other things, so maybe you're reviewing other things."

It's day 1, three days in, not lylo. And amazingly enough. You can always change it once you consider things more. After all, you consider voting serious enough to unvote yourself.

Yeah, I'm not really sure what PeregrineV is talking about, especially since I already clarified what David X is doing. DavidX thinking is pretty reasonable actually. Voting him over that is very weak.

And, as per his own words, I have no idea why PeregrineV actually dislikes the Baby Spice case. What is it about it that you dislike, and why did you feel the need to comment on them?

Interesting. I start questioning you about your vote, and you instantly react emotionally and defensivly, calling me "scum" (I guess questioning people about their votes is a scum tell?), accusing me of "misrepresenting" you and calling me "stupid". That kind of angry/aggressive reaction to being questioned about your vote is a fairly significant scum tell on your part, IMHO; if you were town, and you thought your vote was in a good place, you would probably be happy to be given the chance to expound on why you think ML is scum. Instead, you get defensive and angry, which makes me think that I was right and that you're scum pushing for a mislynch.

Then Alabaska, Global, Wraith, and StefanB jump on and also vote. Drawing 5 votes makes it noteworthy to state my opinions about it.

I dislike the fact that Yos' case seems to be:
1. BabySpice reacted defensively and emotionally
2. BabySpice called Yos scum
3. BabySpice accused Yos of misrepresenting her
4. BabySpice called Yos stupid

when
1. Is subjective, and I don't see it
2. That's part of the game
3. Accusations are part of the game
4. Is subjective, since she said it in a roundabout way that can be construed to imply stupidity without the accusation of stupidity.

And a single vote is not the same as "pushing for a mislynch". Unless it is, which brings us back to David.

@Max-My mistake it was Yos.

[PeregrineV]

Bad "late" miller claim.
As stated by StefanB, you should give us as much information as possible (ie mafia or werewolf) since your miller description is the only knowledge we have of the scum team at this point.
And how is it not your first post, since it's very highly relevant to the game? You got in two votes and more conversations before mentioning it.

Welcome to replacement guys!

[PeregrineV]

Bad "late" miller claim.
As stated by StefanB, you should give us as much information as possible (ie mafia or werewolf) since your miller description is the only knowledge we have of the scum team at this point.
And how is it not your first post, since it's very highly relevant to the game? You got in two votes and more conversations before mentioning it.

Is there a reason why you are asking everything that has already been asked?

Just possibly because you've been ignoring it.

Normal sequence of events:
1. Sign up for game.
2. Get PM.
3. Read PM
4. "Oh wow, I'm a miller. Better claim that right away."
5. Thread opens.
6. Post RVS vote along with phrase "Also, I am a werewolf miller, with big ears, big eyes, and big teeth, but am also a reformed vegetarian after chowing down on Grandma tartar."

So, I was wondering how you posted in the thread, knowing your role and alignment, and completely forgot your role and alignment.

[PeregrineV]

@Ghostlin- Not at this point. I usually need a lot more info to work off of.

Ftr, the lack of miller claim was the fact I actually forgot that we were a miller due to the sheer quantity of text in our role PM. It kinda got side-noted for me, though cons claimed it when I said we should probably claim it (I would've done it myself but was headed out at the time).

See, that wasn't so hard.

@Baby- I've seen worse from others, so objectively you seemed irritated, but you know you best.

@MoI- David is still brooding over the act of placing a simple vote. What does that say to you?

I'm not feeling the Otolia as scum thing either. Scum doesn't walk in and stick their [REDACTED] into a blender to start the game.
If you're voting him for annoyingness, then fine. But in all cases, lynching scum is preferred.

[PeregrineV]

Only 4 pages behind, but will catch up slowly today while at work.

[PeregrineV]

I'll need to go back and read some more early stuff. Right now would like to read through why both the top two lynch candidates are voting the same person.

[PeregrineV]

Liking and agreeing with Ghostlin on most stuff. Will re-read Sage, but am sheeping for now.

Unvote.
Vote: Sageamagoo

pedit: lol--yes and yes!

[PeregrineV]

@BabySpice

: You quoted my post on your vote that was way too late, but you didn't write anything new. You have to back up your vote with more content than that. I'm still waiting for that.

I will probably vote for BabySpice as soon as she answers me, if not, I'll re-read IceGuy.

If she responds you'll OMGUS Babyspice, but if she doesn't respond, you'll vote IceGuy?

Explain please.

[PeregrineV]

I gotta give this game a quick re-read later. (unfortunately I got busy during the night period)
For the meantime though

VOTE: David X

I'll bet this is because DavidX didn't want to place a vote yesterday at all, but when he did, he said he would be willing to hammer, but when he voted someone other than himself for the first time it lynched the guy with 12 votes instead of 13, isn't it?

Vote: DavidX

[PeregrineV]

I'll bet this is because DavidX didn't want to place a vote yesterday at all, but when he did, he said he would be willing to hammer, but when he voted someone other than himself for the first time it lynched the guy with 12 votes instead of 13, isn't it?

You think DavidX is a scum double-voter and intentionally hammered IceGuy? Orrrrrrrrr what?

DavidX is town. Pretty sure of this.

Looking for links, because I'm not seeing anything that says "That's exactly how town rolls." In fact, I'm seeing the opposite.

[PeregrineV]

@Wraith- This is why, for me.

Right now, outside of Baby Spice, MoI is my main consideration. There are a few small matters I'm looking into with others first though.

Yes. Because not putting down an instant vote when I'm in the middle of considering other things is bad. Mhmm. That doesn't follow any logical path.

"You're not instantly putting down a vote so you must be avoiding it!"

As opposed to the more logical "You've said you're looking at other things, so maybe you're reviewing other things."

I'm likely not going to get a good grasp on this with the free time I have before deadline. I don't want to vote blindly though, so I'm likely going to remain non-voting until I get up to speed. If I get an unexpected time to read further, I'll be dedicating that time to here though.

I'm still reading, but I'm willing to hammer if/when the rest of the Town wants me to, so that my vote is actually useful. From what I've read so far, Iceguy is about 2nd on my list.

My point stands regardless, I'm willing to direct my vote where Town wants it.

@MOD: May I set up a temporary proxy for today, and give a player my vote? Effectively turn them into a double-voter for the day?

VOTE: Iceguy

That's L-1.

Vote Count 1.15 - Final

With 25 alive, it takes 13 to lynch.

IceGuy (12): Maxous, Global Warming, TheJakalope, StefanB, EtherealCookie, sageamagoo, BBmolla, MagnaofIllusion, Oversoul, Yosarian2, zMuffinMan, David Xanatos

IceGuy being lynched at 12 votes instead of 13 is accurate.

[PeregrineV]

@StefanB- Take that into account, and then examine DavidX's day1 voting pattern and reasons for his votes.

[PeregrineV]

I'm off work tomorrow, and the weekend is after that. Since I usually post from work, I probably want be adding to the conversation over the weekend.

In fact, I'll be adding to the lack of it.

[PeregrineV]

I'm off work tomorrow, and the weekend is after that. Since I usually post from work, I probably

won't

be adding to the conversation over the weekend.

In fact, I'll be adding to the lack of it.

EBWOP: bold correction

[PeregrineV]

@Pere (re #579)

What about those quotes?

Not sure what you're asking here.

I asked you for quotes in Post 578 where you said DavidX was town.

Spoiler: post 578

I'll bet this is because DavidX didn't want to place a vote yesterday at all, but when he did, he said he would be willing to hammer, but when he voted someone other than himself for the first time it lynched the guy with 12 votes instead of 13, isn't it?

You think DavidX is a scum double-voter and intentionally hammered IceGuy? Orrrrrrrrr what?

DavidX is town. Pretty sure of this.

Looking for links, because I'm not seeing anything that says "That's exactly how town rolls." In fact, I'm seeing the opposite.

Then, my own quotes in post 579 were directed at Wraith, to point out specifically why I am voting DavidX.

Spoiler: Post 579

@Wraith- This is why, for me.

Right now, outside of Baby Spice, MoI is my main consideration. There are a few small matters I'm looking into with others first though.

Yes. Because not putting down an instant vote when I'm in the middle of considering other things is bad. Mhmm. That doesn't follow any logical path.

"You're not instantly putting down a vote so you must be avoiding it!"

As opposed to the more logical "You've said you're looking at other things, so maybe you're reviewing other things."

I'm likely not going to get a good grasp on this with the free time I have before deadline. I don't want to vote blindly though, so I'm likely going to remain non-voting until I get up to speed. If I get an unexpected time to read further, I'll be dedicating that time to here though.

I'm still reading, but I'm willing to hammer if/when the rest of the Town wants me to, so that my vote is actually useful. From what I've read so far, Iceguy is about 2nd on my list.

My point stands regardless, I'm willing to direct my vote where Town wants it.

@MOD: May I set up a temporary proxy for today, and give a player my vote? Effectively turn them into a double-voter for the day?

VOTE: Iceguy

That's L-1.

Vote Count 1.15 - Final

With 25 alive, it takes 13 to lynch.

IceGuy (12): Maxous, Global Warming, TheJakalope, StefanB, EtherealCookie, sageamagoo, BBmolla, MagnaofIllusion, Oversoul, Yosarian2, zMuffinMan, David Xanatos

IceGuy being lynched at 12 votes instead of 13 is accurate.

[PeregrineV]

@Muffin- It was the combination of posts that he wouldn't be voting, was reading up, working on stuff, etc all taken together. Since I ISO also contained VLA info, I summarized the game relevant posts from day1.

@Whoever asked- I know the top two wagons right now and Dry-fit and Jak, but I don't recall a particularly striking case on either of them, despite receiving so many votes. I can do a post dig for eachvoter's case, but the result will be if I don't agree with the crappy cases and don't find enough scumminess on my own when I read either one, I probably won't vote for them.

[PeregrineV]

Vote Count 1.15 - Final

With 25 alive, it takes 13 to lynch.

IceGuy (12): Maxous,

Global Warming

,

TheJakalope

,

StefanB

,

EtherealCookie

,

sageamagoo

,

BBmolla

,

MagnaofIllusion

,

Oversoul

,

Yosarian2

, zMuffinMan,

David Xanatos

sageamagoo (5):

DarthYoshi,

Bogre,

Ghostlin

, PeregrineV,

IceGuy

Otolia (3):

sorgster

, Dry-fit, Baby Spice
Baby Spice (2): Alabaska J, Wraith
StefanB (1):

Otolia

MagnaofIllusion (1): ToastyToast
sorgster (1): whispersilk

V/LA: DarthYoshi (10/9), ToastyToast (10/9), MagnaofIllusion (10/10)

IceGuy being lynched at 12 votes instead of 13 is accurate.

Global Warming prodded.

Vote Count 2.7

With 22 alive, it takes 12 to lynch.

Dry-Fit (6):

BBmolla, The Fonz, Yosarian2, David Xanatos, sorgster, TheJakalope

TheJakalope (6):

Global Warming, Ghostlin, StefanB, Otolia, DarthYoshi, Oversoul

David Xanatos (2): Maxous, PeregrineV
BBmolla (2): Wraith, Dry-fit
Alabaska J (2): zMuffinMan, ToastyToast
sorgster (1): Bogre

Not voting (3): Empking's Alt, whispersilk, Alabaska J

Deadline is October 25th, at 11:00am EST.
Countdown to deadline:

(expired on 2011-10-25 11:00:00)

Intended to be a "where are they now" post. It looks like Alabaska has a giant wall about something. Will read it first and come back to this.

[PeregrineV]

@Alabaska- I was referring to ISO Otolia 7-12 where he fights with MOI.

[PeregrineV]

So after Toasty, we have Alabaska doing walls of the past. Great !

@PeregrineV

: What are your conclusions on the 'votecount' you did ? Do you see patterns or anything valuable ? If not, was it useful at all ?

I think we are heading in a wall right now. Neither Dry-Fit nor TheJakalope are defending themselves actively. For me it means that they are not town PR because those are most likely feeling the burden of responsibility (particularly for newer players), so it leaves us with them being scum or VT. Since we can't agree on one of them, I suggest switching all our votes on somebody else (like sorgster for example) at once. Remember that the day is dawning soon.

Right now it's telling me that 64% of the IceGuy voters are voting Dry-Fit or Jakalope right now.
It also tells me if you are voting Jakalope or Dry-Fit, where were you voting yesterday at days end?

I don't conclude as much from it as I would like. Since there are two teams, I was hoping to get a better view of the blocks of voters.

Global Warming, StefanB, Oversoul are voting together when you look at the two.
TheJakalope, TheFonz, BBmolla, Yosarian2, David Xanatos are voting together also.

Now, let's go back to this:

Ghostlin, if you vigged EC then why wasn't there a second scumkill?

Protective roles, Roleblocking roles.

If town did the roleblocking of one of the scum, then they would probably come in with a great case on the person in order to get them voted without revealing themselves. Scum roleblocker roleblocking the other scumteams kill, not so much.
These are the srating votes on the current wagons.

Vote: Jackalope

This will be the lynch for today. He is just making blunt statements that sometimes do not even make sense.

@Wraith: I voted IceGuy based off of scummy play near that time. I read enough of him to find him scummy(and I ISO'd him to make sure), but I hadn't gotten a chance to truly read the whole thread and get a grasp of everyone.

@Muffin: Could you make a case on alabaska? I'm not seeing it.

In my initial reread, I found David X scummy. But I think it may just be because of his family issues limiting the commitment he could put into this game, making it look scummy.

VOTE: Dry-Fit

Something about this guy bugs me, I can't put my finger on it. Want to put him more in the spotlight.

So assuming one of the two is on the team that blocked the kill, even if not the actual RBer, I can look at those teams (initial voter bolded).

TheJakalope, TheFonz,

BBmolla

, Yosarian2, David Xanatos

Global Warming

, StefanB, Oversoul

So, this is what I got out of it.

[PeregrineV]

PV, what do the colors mean? I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be looking at. I'm sure Green is town.

The full-on green is the dead town (MoI, EthCookie). The off-shades are the voting blocks currently voting either Dry-fit or Jak. Please see my post above for what I gleamed from all that.

[PeregrineV]

PV, what do the colors mean? I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be looking at. I'm sure Green is town.

The full-on green is the dead town (MoI, EthCookie). The off-shades are the voting blocks currently voting either Dry-fit or Jak. Please see my post above for what I gleamed from all that.

Also, apparently myself and DY are voting together, but did not vote IG day 1.

This is true too, but since we don't know TheFonz's alignment, I don't attribute much meaning to it right now.

[PeregrineV]

So after Toasty, we have Alabaska doing walls of the past. Great !

@PeregrineV

: What are your conclusions on the 'votecount' you did ? Do you see patterns or anything valuable ? If not, was it useful at all ?

I think we are heading in a wall right now. Neither Dry-Fit nor TheJakalope are defending themselves actively. For me it means that they are not town PR because those are most likely feeling the burden of responsibility (particularly for newer players), so it leaves us with them being scum or VT. Since we can't agree on one of them, I suggest switching all our votes on somebody else (like sorgster for example) at once. Remember that the day is dawning soon.

If one of these wagons flips scum I know where my vote will be next.

Your logic is silly. We have 10 people not on either of the leading wagons.

If it nears deadline and we're still in deadlock, we'll just make them choose one of the wagons.

With that being said, I would be willing to switch to sorgster if needed. I'd prefer Dry-Fit though.

What are your reads on the following:
TheJakalope
TheFonz
Yosarian2
David Xanatos

[PeregrineV]

What are your reads on the following:
TheJakalope
TheFonz
Yosarian2
David Xanatos

Framed town, obvious scapegoat.
Probable town.
Town.
Null leaning scum

In a game with 2 scum teams, why do you think there was only one (non-vig) kill last night?

[PeregrineV]

Unvote.
Vote: BBMolla

Others were able to speculate without claiming anything. And your claim for no reason doesn't make sense to me. A town PR would never do it without the spectre of lynching.

[PeregrineV]

Unvote.
Vote: BBMolla

Others were able to speculate without claiming anything. And your claim for no reason doesn't make sense to me. A town PR would never do it without the spectre of lynching.

where does he claim…

Post 789 sure sounds like one (see post 799)

[PeregrineV]

Unvote.
Vote: BBMolla

Others were able to speculate without claiming anything. And your claim for no reason doesn't make sense to me. A town PR would never do it without the spectre of lynching.

where does he claim…

Post 789 sure sounds like one (see post 799)

No, it doesn't. You asked him why there was only one NK in a game with two scumteams. The possible answers for that are:

1. A team forgot to submit a kill
2. One of the kills targeted the same player as either the vig or other scumteam
3. A power role (or BP) stopped one of the scumteams from killing.

He can't possibly know whether either of the first two are true unless he's scum in which case he's not admitting to it, and so the only possible motive for your question is to find out whether he knows anything about whether it might be 3). IE, trying to find out if he has a power role. What else could you possibly have been trying to find out with that question?

You're now further rolefishing him by the way you're pushing this 'He claimed' shit that, if BBMolla isn't careful, could lead to him dropping a hint that could indicate whether or not he has a pr.

So you read his response to my original post. What are your thoughts on my original post?

So after Toasty, we have Alabaska doing walls of the past. Great !

@PeregrineV

: What are your conclusions on the 'votecount' you did ? Do you see patterns or anything valuable ? If not, was it useful at all ?

I think we are heading in a wall right now. Neither Dry-Fit nor TheJakalope are defending themselves actively. For me it means that they are not town PR because those are most likely feeling the burden of responsibility (particularly for newer players), so it leaves us with them being scum or VT. Since we can't agree on one of them, I suggest switching all our votes on somebody else (like sorgster for example) at once. Remember that the day is dawning soon.

Right now it's telling me that 64% of the IceGuy voters are voting Dry-Fit or Jakalope right now.
It also tells me if you are voting Jakalope or Dry-Fit, where were you voting yesterday at days end?

I don't conclude as much from it as I would like. Since there are two teams, I was hoping to get a better view of the blocks of voters.

Global Warming, StefanB, Oversoul are voting together when you look at the two.
TheJakalope, TheFonz, BBmolla, Yosarian2, David Xanatos are voting together also.

Now, let's go back to this:

Ghostlin, if you vigged EC then why wasn't there a second scumkill?

Protective roles, Roleblocking roles.

If town did the roleblocking of one of the scum, then they would probably come in with a great case on the person in order to get them voted without revealing themselves. Scum roleblocker roleblocking the other scumteams kill, not so much.
These are the srating votes on the current wagons.

Vote: Jackalope

This will be the lynch for today. He is just making blunt statements that sometimes do not even make sense.

@Wraith: I voted IceGuy based off of scummy play near that time. I read enough of him to find him scummy(and I ISO'd him to make sure), but I hadn't gotten a chance to truly read the whole thread and get a grasp of everyone.

@Muffin: Could you make a case on alabaska? I'm not seeing it.

In my initial reread, I found David X scummy. But I think it may just be because of his family issues limiting the commitment he could put into this game, making it look scummy.

VOTE: Dry-Fit

Something about this guy bugs me, I can't put my finger on it. Want to put him more in the spotlight.

So assuming one of the two is on the team that blocked the kill, even if not the actual RBer, I can look at those teams (initial voter bolded).

TheJakalope, TheFonz,

BBmolla

, Yosarian2, David Xanatos

Global Warming

, StefanB, Oversoul

So, this is what I got out of it.

[PeregrineV]

Unvote.
Vote: BBMolla

Others were able to speculate without claiming anything. And your claim for no reason doesn't make sense to me. A town PR would never do it without the spectre of lynching.

where does he claim…

Post 789 sure sounds like one (see post 799)

No, it doesn't. You asked him why there was only one NK in a game with two scumteams. The possible answers for that are:

1. A team forgot to submit a kill
2. One of the kills targeted the same player as either the vig or other scumteam
3. A power role (or BP) stopped one of the scumteams from killing.

He can't possibly know whether either of the first two are true unless he's scum in which case he's not admitting to it, and so the only possible motive for your question is to find out whether he knows anything about whether it might be 3). IE, trying to find out if he has a power role. What else could you possibly have been trying to find out with that question?

You're now further rolefishing him by the way you're pushing this 'He claimed' shit that, if BBMolla isn't careful, could lead to him dropping a hint that could indicate whether or not he has a pr.

Then lets go back to this.

1. So out of a team of 3-4 people, they all just "forgot"? Likelihood= very very small.
2. So out of 21-22 choices, those 3 or 4 people picked the exact same player as the other 3-4 people? Likelihood= very very small.
3. Maybe. So I speculated that one of the teams RBed the kill, and are now trying to lynch that roleblocked player.
What do you think about that?
You speculate that one of the teams hit a bulletproof. If that was true, how would they think to kill him? By lynching. Which means the wagons are more than random; there is something behind them.
What are your thoughts on that?

[PeregrineV]

Peregrine what did I claim. I'm still waiting for an answer.

What are you trying to do here? I really don't understand.

Peregrine and myself, at least, believe you softclaimed a PR. That doesn't mean we know exactly what you softclaimed. So if you yourself know that you never hardclaimed or even softclaimed a

specific

role then why are you asking? Because Peregrine avoiding an unanswerable question isn't scummy, and it seems to me that you are trying to make it so.

No. Peregrine said I claimed. So me "softclaiming" makes me a good lynch target?

I'm not gonna say anything more. It was rolefishing and still is.

Softclaiming as town was bad. Softclaiming as scum would be in an attempt to not get lynched.

I am voting you because
1. Your part of one of the groups in 741.
2. Unnecessary softclaim in 789.

Now, unless a bunch of people ISO you are find you scummy in the next two days, you probably won't be lynched.
But, I find you scummy enough for now to keep my vote on you.

[PeregrineV]

Thinking the scum teams are alternating night kills. Two protects, etc. in a row is too much of a coincidence.

Want to look and see if Muffin was onto anybody yesterday, I think that will be the best place to start looking.

[PeregrineV]

PV---Who do you think is scum and more importantly, why aren't you voting them?

Most everybody, but I only have one vote.

There are obvious candidates (BBMolla, Dry-Fit, Max, DavidX) and the not so obvious (Alabaska, StefanB, Global Warming). I'll look back over day2 and day1, and then vote, unless someone presents a better reason than the ones so far.

[PeregrineV]

@Yos2- Are you rolefishing? Best be careful there...

[PeregrineV]

@Yos2- Are you rolefishing? Best be careful there...

It's not rolefishing to question someone who has already claimed. Especially since I'm not questioning for more details about his secret society or their abilities, but we do need to understand what, exactly, it is he's claiming now, so we'll know later if he's telling the truth or not. Partial claims are fine in this kind of setup, but vague claims do more harm then good.

Exactly, but BBMolla didn't take it kindly yesterday when he was called out for soft claiming. Let's see his response now.

[PeregrineV]

Who did you roleblock last night, and (given that there was only one kill), why didn't you reveal it immediately?

And you revealed this...why?
Seriously.

I roleblocked BBmolla.
And yeah, it slightly increased my suspicion, but it's not as if there aren't any other numerous reasons a kill would of been prevented.
It was nothing worth claiming for.

Like doc, bulletproof, double target, etc.?

So, it seems to be boiled down to Is Max town or scum RB?

Did her RB of BBMolla prevent a night kill from occuring?

Vote: BBMolla

Since I already feel he is connected to Jak.

But, since Max has been outed I would like to hear a lot more from her regarding the whole thing.

[PeregrineV]

PV---Who do you think is scum and more importantly, why aren't you voting them?

Most everybody, but I only have one vote.

There are obvious candidates (BBMolla, Dry-Fit, Max, DavidX) and the not so obvious (Alabaska, StefanB, Global Warming). I'll look back over day2 and day1, and then vote, unless someone presents a better reason than the ones so far.

Bad answer. Let me ask the reverse question: who you do have the town reads on?

I'm leaning town on Ghostlin, Wraith, and DarthYosi. There are 3-4 more on the town side of null, but I'd rather get more info before going fully onto "leaning town" on them.

[PeregrineV]

Who did you roleblock last night, and (given that there was only one kill), why didn't you reveal it immediately?

And you revealed this...why?
Seriously.

I roleblocked BBmolla.
And yeah, it slightly increased my suspicion, but it's not as if there aren't any other numerous reasons a kill would of been prevented.
It was nothing worth claiming for.

Like doc, bulletproof, double target, etc.?

So, it seems to be boiled down to Is Max town or scum RB?

Did her RB of BBMolla prevent a night kill from occuring?

Vote: BBMolla

Since I already feel he is connected to Jak.

But, since Max has been outed I would like to hear a lot more from her regarding the whole thing.

Did you even read any of my posts today?

884, 893, and 910. However, Wraith pretty much took the words right out of my mouth.

The only thing I would add is, if there are confirmed (by who?) no werewolves in your Society, but there

may

be regular scum, you yourself are not scum, who, if anyone, do you think is regular scum in your Society?

[PeregrineV]

I'm in his society, we were told at the start that our original members (Me, BB, Alabaster) do not contain Werewolves. So unless you happen to believe I'm Mafia, bugger off. Not sure what to make of BB personally, given that the RB coincides with a missing kill..

Confirmed to you three != confirmed to everyone else.

But let's assume it is true, then the same question to you.

If there are "confirmed" no werewolves in your Society, but there

may be

regular scum, and you yourself are not scum, who, if anyone, do you think is regular scum in your Society?

[PeregrineV]

I believe if there's scum in my society it's DavidX.

Shall I claim my role? Because I'm having a hard time believing the roleblock at the moment.

Toasty saw Max Roleblock someone.

Max claimed you.

If you have some sort of verifiable result, that would in effect counterclaim Max, and you probably should.

If you have a a role that can't be verified, then claiming wouldn't help.

[PeregrineV]

Yeah, but your under a ton of pressure. And yet you choose to hide something that could give us scum?
I wasn't going to reveal this, but finding a roleblocker is worth mentioning, especially given that they are significantly more likely to appear as scum.
Lets see here. We know that our town doctor is dead. There could be plenty of other protection roles, but given that this setup has multiple secret societies, I would say town is more likely to have a surplus of investigative-type powers rather than protection type powers.
Also, if you truly thought BBmolla was scum, you would realize that have a roleblock and single kill is particularly damning evidence.

QFT

I really don't like players not even thinking about Maxous being scum roleblocker.

Also Maxous, who did you roleblock N1? Why didn't you think of it yourself to claim that one as well? That night there were 2 kills, when one was claimed by the 1-shot vig. So that's two nights that you could have blocked the scum.

Also Yos, what did you do a good job of saying 1. what was the reason for him to claim it 2. that him being roleblocked with one lesser kill makes him more scummy.
Now do not state the obvious and tell us what you think of Max and DX.

- CS

Well, after night1 this was her first post:

I gotta give this game a quick re-read later. (unfortunately I got busy during the night period)
For the meantime though

VOTE: David X

And she pushed David almost the whole day.

Of course, since she is now outed, I'd much rather her claim her targets, and then go from there.

[PeregrineV]

Sorry for weekend absence. Catching up today.

[PeregrineV]

@BBMolla- So are you claiming you can confirm you were NOT roleblocked? While it seems that the question currently out there is "Is Max a town or scum roleblocker?"

Where Toasty has "witnessed" Max doing roleblock stuff, you seem torn between claiming and not claiming, and whether you were roleblocked or not?

So,

I believe if there's scum in my society it's DavidX.

Shall I claim my role? Because I'm having a hard time believing the roleblock at the moment.

Toasty saw Max Roleblock someone.

Max claimed you.

If you have some sort of verifiable result, that would in effect counterclaim Max, and you probably should.

If you have a a role that can't be verified, then claiming wouldn't help.

3) If BBMolla has a role that has a result that would negate Max's claim for block, he should claim now. Otherwise he shouldn't. Most investigation roles will bring back a result, while most protection and roleblocking roles will not. (Yes, this is an echo of PV.) We lynch the first claimiant if a counterclaim happens, and if town, we lynch the second.

4) No one else should claim at this time unless it would countermand a result: ie, Toasty's ability to find Max is a RB, Max's RB of BBMolla, etc.

What is being requested of you is can you verifiably claim something that counters Max?

[PeregrineV]

I can't confirm whether I was blocked or not, and it may or may not be relevent to the one death.

This is really tough to explain without claiming unfortunately.

I have a feeling I've revealed too much as it is, and that I'm probably dead tonight.

So, do you think Max is lying about roleblocking you? If she did not roleblock you, what did she do to you? If she did nothing, do you think Totasty is lying about seeing Max do anything to you?

Do you see how a lot of the conversation revolves around you as the "target of the Max "roleblock" and you are not participating in it?

tl;dr
Max claims blocks BBMolla on one-kill night with two scumteam game, but doesn't vote him.
BBMolla claims he was not blocked but can't say why without claiming, but doesn't vote Max for lying.

Why?

I'm starting to think they are on the same team (hint:it ain't town) but are trying to finagle it so neither gets lynched.

[PeregrineV]

BBMolla claims he was not blocked but can't say why without claiming, but doesn't vote Max for lying.

This and not knowing whether or not one is role-blocked are two very different things. Where did BBMolla claim that he wasn't blocked?

Shall I claim my role? Because I'm having a hard time believing the roleblock at the moment.

But since nobody's talking and nobody's voting, we have to decide whether 936 is a claim or not of being roleblocked or not. What do you think?

[PeregrineV]

@Max- Crazy question then.

Why did you pick BBMolla to roleblock?

[PeregrineV]

@Max- Crazy question then.

Why did you pick BBMolla to roleblock?

Didn't think it was that crazy. The question still stands.

@Toasty- before I go back and dig for it, did you track Max and see her make a roleblock, or did you just see her "do something"?

[PeregrineV]

hey back from V/LA; i am in the group with DX and BBMolla, and BBMolla was the one who used our ability to target players. this roleblock would explain why no one was inducted.

currently rereading, but i realized this info might be very important

It changes some things, but you should re-read and discuss all of the ramifications.

Unvote.

[PeregrineV]

Side note, deadline is in about four days. Dry-Fit, sorgster, BB, think about moving your votes to where they will actually make a difference. PV, why on G-d's green earth do you not have your vote out right now? I feel like you're usually more on top of shit than that.

Well, I just unvoted BBMolla, who can't give any information without claiming, but lied by omission about using his factional power. That I can understand not wanting to divulge, however I still find the whole mess sneaky as shit.

Toasty saw Max Roleblock.
Max states target of BBMolla night2, EthCookie night1.
BBMolla unwilling or unable to confirm being roleblocked
BBMolla outs "non-wolf" secret society of DavidX, Alabaska, BBMolla
Sorgster has 8 votes


sorgster (8): Bogre, Maxous, The Fonz, StefanB, Yosarian2, Oversoul, Wraith, BBmolla

This doesn't look as contrived as shit?

http://www.themightyginge.com/blog/wp-c ... urtain.gif

[PeregrineV]

Vote: Maxous

[PeregrineV]

Although it puzzles me that BB would agree to do the recruit if holding a PR... hmmm.

I can explain this.

Who leads our SS is based upon who has been on most scum lynches. At the first induction, nobody had been on one, so I was randomly chosen as leader. We get a really good ss power if we recruit two more people, and I figured delaying it wouldn't be a good idea.

But as of night2, Alabaska J and DavidX were both on the scum Jak lynch, and you were not.
Wouldn't one of them be the leader according to the rules you just laid out? Why would you still be "recruiting" on night 2?

[PeregrineV]

Sorry Oto. Good luck town and bye. I'm lynched now right?

Yes. So are you Werewolf or Mafia?

[PeregrineV]

I didn't.

...

As I've said before I did a personal action last night, not ss.

N1. SS recruit
N2. Role action

I realized after typing up huge post that it would indicate lying on your part, but would not really prove anything regarding alignment.

So, if you think the missing information would help with alignment, please state it. (Or you may have already and I missed it).

@Alabaska- during the re-read I asked your SS a question about the non-wolves clause. Can you answer it too, please?

[PeregrineV]

Vanilla townie

Then who on your wagon is scum? As your last town act, please analyze your wagon, and then any players off of your wagon.

[PeregrineV]

I don't get why you are talking about the The Fonz gambit when Oversoul voted for sorgster after already voting for him. So it didn't even matter where he had his secret vote.

- CS

Yeah, so were you thinking on purpose or accident?

To me, it looked intentional, and Sorgster was supposed to go into "dead townie death spasms" mode.

Vote: Orversoul

for attempting to contrive a fake lynch on Sorgster

[PeregrineV]

TheFonz has scumminess from previous days, and ignored some questions I asked him, so kind of want to see how he is going to respond to this, if at all.

[PeregrineV]

@Peregrine: I cannot find a single question addressed to me in your ISO.

Post 851 where you responded to someone else's response to my post, I asked you about the original post.

Post 852 I responded to your post with more followup questions.

[PeregrineV]

OK, here's the responses. Also, I'd like to point out, I didn't IGNORE these questions either: Day ended before I could reply, and by the time day started, I'd moved on.

So you read his [Alabaska] response to my [PV] original post. What are your thoughts on my original post?

I thought it was scummy. BBM had a reason for claiming.

Then lets go back to this.

1. So out of a team of 3-4 people, they all just "forgot"? Likelihood= very very small.
2. So out of 21-22 choices, those 3 or 4 people picked the exact same player as the other 3-4 people? Likelihood= very very small.
3. Maybe. So I speculated that one of the teams RBed the kill, and are now trying to lynch that roleblocked player.
What do you think about that?
You speculate that one of the teams hit a bulletproof. If that was true, how would they think to kill him? By lynching. Which means the wagons are more than random; there is something behind them.
What are your thoughts on that?

1) Occurs far more often than you're giving credence to. Usually, the scumgroup asks one player to PM the kill, and then he goes and gets lunch or something and it slips his mind he was supposed to do the scumkill.

2) The likelihood of the two scumgroups targeting the same player as each other is statistically greater than that of a successful doc protect. Think about it, in both cases you're looking at two distinct entities targeting the same other player. For the doctor, he is choosing from a field of everyone but himself. The two scumgroups are choosing from fields of everyone but their own members. Because there are more scum than there are doctors, therefore, a double kill is actually MORE likely than a doc protect. Don't believe me? Look back at the records of large multigroup scum games. Double kills probably happen, and i'm slightly pulling this out of my ass, about once every other game. MoI is a player known for his ability to, at the very least, SOUND reasonable, so it would make perfect sense for him to be double-killed.

3) and perhaps 4) although you don't mark it. To these, I say, so fucking what? Let's assume for a second scum hit a bulletproof. How would they tell the difference between that and a doc protect? Or, assume that they RBed someone or did somehow know the target wasn't protected (let's say, they killed a VI or something). And how would scum pushing this kind of lynch look any different to town pushing a lynch of someone they suspected? And this is why your little speculation looked like fake scumhunting. You make an assumption of a specific explanation for the nightkill. As a result of that, you make an assumption about how scum might behave. From that, you narrow down to the eight people who are voting on wagons that there might be scum in them. (Brilliant). You then seem to, basically, pull out of your ass two specific names of people who you decide might be scum. Your question was essentially: this is what I think happened, what do you think?

My answer: your thought process there is basically, unwarranted assumption, unwarranted assumption, massive indiscriminate FOS on anyone voting, seemingly baseless singling-out of two players.

Yeah, it looks like no one forgot last night, and both scum teams didn't pick the same person. What are the odds?

@Toasty- Why would Sorgster be town if Oversoul is suspicious? Do you think Sorgster didn't bother going back and checking the votes on him to see if he was ACTUALLY lynched, and just took someone's word for it? Regardless of alignment, who would do that?
I'm suspicious the whole thing was orchestrated. And when I pushed Sorgster with "yeah your dead do your town duty", was his response sincere?

[PeregrineV]

Yeah, it looks like no one forgot last night, and both scum teams didn't pick the same person. What are the odds?

Can you explain how this is anything but pointless snark? Any specific explanation of a missed nightkill is going to require either someone forgetting, or a role hitting (assuming both scumgroups can kill) on a chance that is less than 1/9. My point isn't that double kills or forgetting or doc protects are more likely than successful roleblocks - it's that assuming any one of these explanations is a bad idea. Assuming that scum would assume one of these explanations is a bad idea. Assuming that as a result of that, people voting are blanket more likely to be scummy than people not is a bad idea. And pulling out of your ass two people out of the eight votes to call scum is a bad idea.

Alternatively, the whole thing was fake, a very contrived excuse to attack Global Warming and BBMolla with no real basis whatsoever. I think this is a much simpler, more satisfying explanation than you built a house of cards ase based on four unreasonable assumptions in a row.

Quote tag fixed.

No, it was a pointless snark.

My primary point is that it gives us information.
Night1= 1 scum death, 1 "vig" death
Night2= 1 scum death
Night3= 2 scum death

Do you think this tells us ANYTHING? You seem to say "we can't speculate". If you are saying that, I'm saying "why not?"

Do you think Max roleblocked BBMolla night2? Do you think that RB stopped a nightkill?

[PeregrineV]

Peregrine: Why would that fake vote be scummy? I see a townmotivation to make a fake vote (get information there is a chance if scum Sorgster would reveal somethink)

TheFonz: I thought so also, but scum has daytalk, so um. Besides Sorgster has posted the freaking votecount. He should have realised it then!!!!!

It looks like you answered your own question.

Because any player is going to double check before "taking the word" of another player, unless there is some ulterior motive. Anyone besides the mod tells me I'm lynched, I will be checking and double checking the votes to see for myself. Unless it's in my best interest not too. Like I want to to present a "townie looking death" when I'm not really dead.

And I think Oversoul knows this. So I either think:
Oversoul didn't know he was already voting Sorgster.
Oversoul "faked" a hammer on Sorgster and Sorgster is too stupid or bad of a player to double check.

Since I think Oversoul did know where his vote was, and Sorgster is not stupid, I think there was collusion and chicanery involved, and would really like to hear an explanation that addresses all of these issues before I unvote.

[PeregrineV]

Because any player is going to double check before "taking the word" of another player, unless there is some ulterior motive. Anyone besides the mod tells me I'm lynched, I will be checking and double checking the votes to see for myself. Unless it's in my best interest not too. Like I want to to present a "townie looking death" when I'm not really dead.

WIFOM and trying too hard. Maybe Sorg missed the fact OS had voted before in the last count, even if he reposted it. Maybe he got caught up in the fact it was faux twilight and didn't bother to check. I didn't check when I posted that was the hammer.

Cool, so go ahead the tell me right here that when you suspect you are hammered, you DO NOT go back and check for yourself.

[PeregrineV]

I don't get why you are talking about the The Fonz gambit when Oversoul voted for sorgster after already voting for him. So it didn't even matter where he had his secret vote.

- CS

Yeah, so were you thinking on purpose or accident?

To me, it looked intentional, and Sorgster was supposed to go into "dead townie death spasms" mode.

Vote: Orversoul

for attempting to contrive a fake lynch on Sorgster

Peregrine: Why would that fake vote be scummy? I see a townmotivation to make a fake vote (get information there is a chance if scum Sorgster would reveal somethink)

TheFonz: I thought so also, but scum has daytalk, so um. Besides Sorgster has posted the freaking votecount. He should have realised it then!!!!!

It looks like you answered your own question.

Because any player is going to double check before "taking the word" of another player, unless there is some ulterior motive. Anyone besides the mod tells me I'm lynched, I will be checking and double checking the votes to see for myself. Unless it's in my best interest not too. Like I want to to present a "townie looking death" when I'm not really dead.

And I think Oversoul knows this. So I either think:
Oversoul didn't know he was already voting Sorgster.
Oversoul "faked" a hammer on Sorgster and Sorgster is too stupid or bad of a player to double check.

Since I think Oversoul did know where his vote was, and Sorgster is not stupid, I think there was collusion and chicanery involved, and would really like to hear an explanation that addresses all of these issues before I unvote.

Peregrine pushing hard for Sorgster's lynch makes my town read on him diminish. I originally did think that I hammered Sorgster, but when I realized I hadn't I decided to say nothing to see if others would make the same mistake I did. The only apparent thing that I can take from it is that I believe Sorgster is telling the truth.

I believe Sorgster. He is a bad player (you will get better with experience, trust me ), but probably not scum.

Stefan, why should we aim for a specific faction? It won't matter as long as we remove an anti-town member of the faction.

I'm pushing so hard for the Sorgster lynch my vote punched through him right into you?

And it sounds like you're asking me to believe you didn't know you were already voting someone before voting them again?

And Sorgster is such a bad player he wouldn't bother checking whether he was dead or alive?

I guess this requires a wall where I post each post involving the fake hammer and the fake reaction to it.

[PeregrineV]

@Peregrine: If you're a scumteam concocting some diabolical plot to clear one of your number based on a fake hammer, wouldn't you have the fake hammerer make clear that it was a 'hammer?' Rather than have multiple third parties claim it was a hammer, and your 'hammerer' be like OMG please tell me that wasn't a hammer?

Now that does suggest Oversoul didn't know where his vote was or how many votes were on the leading wagon when he voted it. That level of carelessness falls under 'dumb or scum.'

They don't have to clear someone the whole game. Just long enough to avoid lynching them. And it doesn't even have to clear them. It just has to stop more votes from going on him.

So do you think Oversoul is dumb?

Do you think Sorgster thought he was lynched?

[PeregrineV]

Seriously, can someone explain how that post of DX's could in any way be interpreted as showing insider knowledge? It completely escapes me.

It's not. It's an attempt to show him as scummy because while his group is confirmed non-werewolf, that doesn't exclude mafia from being in it. Since it was a three man group, David is pointing out that there is only two left and there is a 50% chance of him being mafia is not a logical thought process, but if you are going to follow it, BBMolla was "roleblocked" the night before and there was no kill.

The reality is that there being no werewolves in the three does NOT mean there IS a mafia, but speculation is running that way.

And of course BBMolla's next post voting David why decrying the whole thing looks scummy as hell.

[PeregrineV]

@Whisper- You should vote Oversoul to show the seriousness of your questioning.

[PeregrineV]

Wow, Wraith, your latest series of posts are pretty bad. If I read you correctly, you forgot that Toasty claimed his role?

How many claims have there been in the game total? How many yesterday?

Why was Max lynched? How did the wagon on him first form?

[PeregrineV]

Well, your posts today pretty much amount to:

"I'm in a mason group that confirms me not being a werewolf"

Whoopty-doo. Doesn't mean anything.

"Dry-Fit case is good, but other people have established it well enough that anything I might actually contribute would be redundant"

Perfect! An excuse to continue not contributing!

"Well I know I'm not a werewolf, but there's no guarantee about members not being scum"

Aw, you took the words right out of my mouth.

So basically, this is why you are still a good lynch for today:

-You got roleblocked and there was only one kill
-You being in a secret society does not confirm you as town, and in fact makes it very possible you are scum because I wouldn't be surprised if there was a scum mason in your original group
-You continue to not really do anything useful, in fact making excuses as to why you don't have to do anything useful while supporting an easy bandwagon
-Your defense basically amounts to "yo bros im a mason MUST BE CONFIRMED trololol!" and "y u no read posts bro?"

I mean, it's like you're hanging yourself with the scrap of rope you've been given.

Wow, Wraith, your latest series of posts are pretty bad. If I read you correctly, you forgot that Toasty claimed his role?

How many claims have there been in the game total? How many yesterday?

Why was Max lynched? How did the wagon on him first form?

In hindsight I had crazy tunnel vision yesterday, and either ignored a lot of "chaff" or forgot about it.

I thought the Max-wagon had formed basically from the ole "dude's scummy cuz posting" reasoning. And he was lynched because GW revealed he was confirmed werewolf.

You seemed pretty up on yesterday, yesterday.

What are your thoughts on Oversoul? Sorgster? Global Warming?

[PeregrineV]

@Peregrine: Man I just deleted what just typed out because it was stupid. Basically my defense here is "I had tunnel vision" which is more a problem than a defense. So can we leave it at that?

Oh, and GW=Town, sorgster=Scum, Oversoul=OnTheFence

I'm guessing no one else will care except me, so free pass.

If someone did the same thing you did, and gave the same excuse, would you think them town or scum?

[PeregrineV]

@David- your lack of response seems damning. Please respond to the votes on you.

[PeregrineV]

Do you hammer even if you think he is town?

[PeregrineV]

@Otolia- You are not voting Dry-Fit right now.

@Global Warming- Why is Otolia a "mislynch possibility"?

@Oversoul- You have less than a day. How much more time do you think you will need?

[PeregrineV]

Unvote.

Vote: Dry-fit.

This is going to be a big waste of the next 24 hours, isn't it?

[PeregrineV]

I don't get why you are talking about the The Fonz gambit when Oversoul voted for sorgster after already voting for him. So it didn't even matter where he had his secret vote.

- CS

Yeah, so were you thinking on purpose or accident?

To me, it looked intentional, and Sorgster was supposed to go into "dead townie death spasms" mode.

Vote: Orversoul

for attempting to contrive a fake lynch on Sorgster

Peregrine: Why would that fake vote be scummy? I see a townmotivation to make a fake vote (get information there is a chance if scum Sorgster would reveal somethink)

TheFonz: I thought so also, but scum has daytalk, so um. Besides Sorgster has posted the freaking votecount. He should have realised it then!!!!!

It looks like you answered your own question.

Because any player is going to double check before "taking the word" of another player, unless there is some ulterior motive. Anyone besides the mod tells me I'm lynched, I will be checking and double checking the votes to see for myself. Unless it's in my best interest not too. Like I want to to present a "townie looking death" when I'm not really dead.

And I think Oversoul knows this. So I either think:
Oversoul didn't know he was already voting Sorgster.
Oversoul "faked" a hammer on Sorgster and Sorgster is too stupid or bad of a player to double check.

Since I think Oversoul did know where his vote was, and Sorgster is not stupid, I think there was collusion and chicanery involved, and would really like to hear an explanation that addresses all of these issues before I unvote.

Vote: Sorgster

[PeregrineV]

@peregrineV, oversoul was one of the main pushers of my wagon and helped start the wagon on me on day 2 and 3.

Good point.

So you mean to say you really don't check to see if you are hammered, or what the votes are against you?

[PeregrineV]

Also, I'm somewhat concerned by the fact that a) BBM has survived multiple nights after softclaiming power and b) Whispersilk didn't really contribute at all yesterday. Not exactly her fault, but I don't want this to be another game where there's a slot in lylo that's barely done anything.

Adding to what you said Fonz I think it's weird that GW and Toasty haven't been killed either.

Adding to this, I would like to know why theFonz is concerned about BBMolla and softclaiming while not mentioning any concern for TotastyToast or Global Warming.

[PeregrineV]

Adding to this, I would like to know why theFonz is concerned about BBMolla and softclaiming while not mentioning any concern for TotastyToast or Global Warming.

Completely different situations.

GlobalWarming has claimed to be a miller. It has also claimed specific role info, namely, Max being a werewolf, which may or may not be a society ability. Their information was proven to be correct.

ToastyToast has claimed that he had information confirming Max to be a roleblocker. Again, may or may not be an SS ability.

BBM has claimed to have some kind of role, where he doesn't know whether he was roleblocked or not. He is also the sole surviving original member of his society, which means that if there were mafia in the founders, it's him. He's also confirmed that it is an individual ability.

So with both the first two, we don't know for sure whether they as individuals are power roles, and this ambiguity is useful to town - scum doesn't know for sure that they aren't merely miller/VT respectively, and shared soc information. Scum DOES know this about BBM if he is not scum, but have nonetheless not chosen to shoot him. Now, it may be they think he's lynchable, sure. But I don't see any additional harm, if he's town, in scum knowing he's a SPECIFIC power role, over just knowing he's a power role in general. He's not a cop (cops know if they're RBed) and since we've lost a doc, he's very unlikely to be that, either. There is harm if he is town, and dies unclaimed, that we will create additional 'grey area' for scum to fit their fakeclaims into. There is harm, if he's scum, in allowing him longer to formulate a fakeclaim, waiting to see who else flips what. There is potential help if he's town that he might claim something falsifiable, therefore strengthening his claim.

So, since scum hasn't bothered with Toasty or Global, since they're "abilities" may or may not be Secret Society related, scum should believe whatever BBMolla says, instead of assuming his is exactly like Toasty's or Global's ability (eg, may or may not be Secret Society related)?


Maybe they don't have to guess, since they probably have members inside of those players secret societies, so know exactly where those powers came from. That would be the results of my speculation about the whole thing.

[PeregrineV]

@Magua- Family holiday V/LA Nov23-Nov28. May be full, may be semi, but want to announce it just in case its full.

[PeregrineV]

That sounded really sincere.

I don't think there are any more wolves.

Who are your non-Sorgster reads and why?

[PeregrineV]

3.I'm just a lurkerish vt. Dry Fit and David X both played like too and both flipped town.

Step 1 covered, only 11 to go!!