Mini 497 - Game Over

[joost]

Vote: Dusterham

Cause he's clearly trying to drown that poor kitty in litter. That a scum tell if I ever saw one.

[joost]

I agree with Destructor, we should lynch scum.

[joost]

Yes I'm pretty sure.

[joost]

FoS: Nirp

Cause I feel like pointing

[joost]

I think that anything that will spark a decent discussion is helping the team. I wonder if Dusterham is helping himself though. His post #45 does make him seems scummy. Hinting that you're scum can onl So I'll keep my vote on him for a while. At least until someone else is acting more scummy.

[joost]

I think that's a typo there. Can you clarify what you were trying to say?

Oh I see I wasn't completely focused when I posted that... I don't remember exactly what I was going to say but I think it was something like this: Hinting your scum can only perhaps be a good idea if you yourself are scum. It's basically what everyone else has said about it. Causing confusion is a scum tell.

joost, could you explain you FOS on Nirp? That seemed unfounded. [/joost]

It was unfounded and maybe it was a poor attempt to get this game out of the random stage. We are definitely out of that now. But as it, in my opinion, still was the random stage I didn't see any harm in being random.

[joost]

The point I was making is that SP admits the vote is nothing more than a random vote. If the reasons for the vote are joking/random, then how can its absurdity be suspect? The vote is random.

Assuming we are still about the same vote (Tinvision voting for Knuck), I agree with Destructor that it wasn't exactly random. Tinvision voted for SP first then switched his vote for some strange reason. If the vote was random why change it?

[joost]

Also, FoS: Atticus. I notice he's managed to post a number of times, yet hasn't actually commented on any of the major issues at this point.

I have noticed this too, Atticus contributed little more than a few oneliners and generalities. He strikes me as a player who just doesn't like to say a lot, but I got my eye on him.

Also I'd like Dusterham to post a bit more, especially since he's been put on pressure. The fact that he still hasn't responded makes me more suspicious of him. My vote stays where it is.

[joost]

What major issues?

Well for instance, Dusterhan causing confusion and remaining silent after he got confronted about it and Tinvision "randomly" changing his vote from Silver Phoenix to Knuck to "fight him".

Those two are at the moment the major issues it seems. Well that and the fact that you don't seem to add much content to the discussion.

[joost]

I really don't understand the difference between a player and his/her actions.

Dusterhan made exactly 3 posts this game, 2 of which are confusing at least and scummy at best. His third post is when he asked for a vote count. And then of course there is the fact that he didn't react to the pressure that was put on him and when he finally posts he adds no content.

I really don't understand how all of a player's actions can be suspicious but the player himself is not.

I say: "X did nothing which I didn't find suspicious" and that does imply that I am in fact suspicous of dusterhan at the moment.

[joost]

Well I agree that he's acting newbish, but I think it's more like newbie scum than newbie pro-town. Thanks Kabenon, there's no need to elaborate.

[joost]

Several reasons actually:
- He jumped on a bandwagon, which is suspicious. Smart scum wouldn't do that so openly, newb scum might.
- He caused confusion deliberately, which only benifits scum.
- He posts nothing of content, not even when people have asked him to. At least I would think he would post something like: "Sorry, I won't do it again" if he had the towns best interest in mind.
- He posts very little, even a newb should know that to catch scum you need discussion.

These are all reasons for me to be suspicious of him. The fact that he does it all openly makes me thing he's a genuine newb and could very well mean that he's just playing poorly as a townie. But right now I think chances of him being actual scum are little over 50%, hence my vote on him. I wouldn't be surprised if he turned out to be town, but he's the most suspicous player at the moment.

[joost]

I think the case on dusterhan is quite shaky, given that it's based on a couple posts and then his absence. Speaking of which, mod prod/replacement, please?

Everyone seems a little jumpy. We've got a lot of time to discuss and choose the best lynch candidate as long as we keep the thread active, so let's not rush into anything until we've enough content to work with, OK?

I agree my case on dusterhan is shaky and truth be told I would not hammer him if I had the chance. But so far it's the only case I had against anybody and it's an interesting topic to discuss and to keep the game active.

You are acting strangely, Tinvision. First you claim we are jumpy and we should take our time until we get content and less than an hour later you vote for Dusterhan eventhough you say the case on him is shaky? I take it you somehow missed Dusterhan's post (#93) since you asked for prod. But this is suspicious behaviour, my friend.

FoS: -TinVision-

[joost]

I did in the initial much longer draft of my post and then accidentally edited it out along with a bunch of fluff. Sorry bout that.

Which post? #102 or #104?

[joost]

Well I think it's a fact and it definitely isn't in your favour...

Meanwhile, where is dusterhan? I would like to hear him say something of content.

[joost]

Also... I am watching the game. I haven't had any blatent coments to point out as when I get here, they are ussually pointed out by someone else half an hour ago.

Still, I'd like to hear your opinion on what has been going on lately. Could you give us an example of the comments you would point out if someone else hadn't done it? And who do you think is the most suspicous at the moment? And why?

Right now I'm wary of anybody who doesn't actively contribute to the game.

[joost]

kabenon, in post 124, you stated that placing a vote for dusterhan didn't do any good and that it was scummy of me to do so. In post 135, you decide to vote for him yourself. Why this sudden change?

Your vote for him was when he had not even responded to our wish that he post. That could have various reasons, such as illness, school, etc. But now he has posted something but refused to add anything to the game. That is why I felt it pertinent to put my vote where it belongs.

That's not true. Before Dusterhan posted in #93, asking for a vote count:
- Nekka asked him why he voted for Sepiroth in post #46
- Destructor asked him why he would want to confuse us in #50
- Nirp asked for an explanation about his behaviour in post #55
- Nirp again in post #82 saying that he would like to hear more from him
- Me in #88 asking him to post more.
And he responded, but with no content whatsoever. He didn't say he was ill or busy or anything, just asked for a vote count.

So let me ask you again, Kabenon: Why the sudden change?

I think that as long as Dusterhan keeps posting, he shouldn't be replaced. If he is town, he's not helping and if he's scum he should die. So at this moment I would not mind lynching him. And like destructor said, if we lynch him and he turns out to be pro-town we'll have something else to focus on, like who was on his bandwagon... I'm willing to take the risk.

Atticus, who do you suspect most at the moment? If you don't want to talk about Dusterhan I'd like you to tell us more about what you think of the other players.

[joost]

Btw, is SilverPhoenix still here?

[joost]

Happy Birthday Atticus!

[joost]

First of all, there was 3 days of inactivity between dusterhan's last post and this one. And Nirp says in this quote that his vote for dusterhan was to get him to post content. I said that I disagree with his voting to get content. My vote on the otherhand is because I think dusterhan is scummy. I want more information from him, but I didn't vote for him just to get him to post, I just think he is scummy, plain and simple. That's why the "sudden change"

Let's review:

I voted Sephiroth cos everyone was voting and i was just going with the flow... or was i?

what's the latest vote count?

This was 3 days and several appeals to post later. Kabenon's response was:

I think that in the cases we are looking at, people are saying that dusterhan made a mistake, that he was exhibiting newbish tendencies. While his actions might appear scummy, appear is the key word. Sometimes newb actions can be mistaken for scummy actions. It's not an excuse for sloppy actions, but that is the difference people are hinting at.

He isn't acting so much scummy, he just isn't really helping the town too much.

Do you understand now, joost, or shall I elaborate a bit more?

(emphasis mine)

You don't think Duster is scummy, just a newb. In fact later you say that you find it scummy that Nirp votes for him based on that post.

i'm still here

Which is 4 days after his last post and suddenly you say:

My vote on the otherhand is because I think dusterhan is scummy.

I still don't see what changed your mind. It seems to me that Dusterhan posted twice in a row without comment after being asked repeatedly to explain himself. You may find this scummy behaviour or not, but I don't see the difference between the first time he did it and the second.

Also I find the following a bit strange:

I'm not saying we should lynch him, all I am saying is that his posting mere I'm here posts but avoiding writing anything of importance is scummy, and right now he is the scummiest person in my eyes. I haven't really seen too much in the realm of other scumminess. My vote on Nekka was random, and my vote serves a better purpose on duster.

I said that I disagree with his voting to get content. My vote on the otherhand is because I think dusterhan is scummy. I want more information from him, but I didn't vote for him just to get him to post, I just think he is scummy, plain and simple.

You think he's scummy but you don't want to lynch him? Then what exactly is the "better purpose" for your vote? It's not to make Dusterhan talk and it's not to lynch him. What other reason could you have?

P.S. I'm sorry to make such a long post of which most is other people's work...

[joost]

Tell me joost, is there or is there not a difference between voting for someone because you want to post and voting for someone because you find them to be scummy. And the answer is certainly yes, those are two completely separate opinions. The reason I found it scummy the second time around is because it was just that, the second time. There is a saying "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me." I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt the first time around, but now, after he has posted twice without comment, I see that as scummy.
[...]
And no, I don't want him lynched right now. We don't want a quick lynch. I want scum lynched eventually, and without dusterhan to post to defend himself, a lynch of him would not do any good right now. I voted because I think his actions are scummy and that is where I believe my vote belongs.

Yes I agree with you that voting for pressure or voting because you think someone is scum are two different things. What I do not agree on is that you put your vote on someone but don't want to get him lynched. If you don't want a quick lynch then why did you make up your mind so quickly? I personally don't think lynching duster is a bad idea. He's not helpful for the game(aside from generating discussion) and definitely not helping the town. He might be harmless scum but he isn't harmless town.

hey mod, can we please have a regular vote count?

Fool me trice...? I really don't like the emoticon. It makes it seem like he's just here to annoy us.

btw Mod, please

prod SilverPhoenix

[joost]

[Dusterhan] has shown that he is just bored, in all of his games he does the same thing. The probability that he is scum in all of his games is quite slim, or so it would seem to me.

I checked Dusterhan's posts, "all of his games" are exactly two games. And in Mini 492 he's actually posting more and with a bit more content than in this game. It's quite possible he's scum or at least anti-town in both games. Granted, confusion seems to be his playing style, but if he is scum and we don't lynch him because he's playing poorly it's actually working. I will remember this post, if Duster turns out to be scum you will rise on my suspect list for defending him without a proper fact-check.

Anyway, you missed my main point regarding dusterhan. It wasn't that we should not get rid of him, even if he is scum, but that according to what we'd seen so far, he wasn't a good lynch for today and that

we should be focusing on other players, most of whom have posted more to analyse

. I still think this is true.

Yes I agree with this completely. I'd also like to focus more on those not scum-hunting, mainly Nekka-Lucifer.

I agree with Aimee on this. I reread Nekka's posts so far and they are only marginally better than Dusterhan's. He doesn't post often and when he does he doesn't add much content. I guess we (me at least) overlooked this. And since it's clear that I won't get enough support to get Duster lynched I'm changing my vote to put pressure on Nekka.

Unvote, Vote: Nekka-Lucifer

Btw, Destructor, you said we should focus on other people. You're vote is on Tinvision, do you still think he's the most suspicious? I'd like other people who think Dusterhan is not a topic worth discussion to come up with other suspects or at least some examples of scummy behaviour.

[joost]

Hmmm.... Well then I guess I'll have to

unvote

[joost]

Why are you all picking on me?

Anyway, i'm quite suspicous of joost cos he is picking on me more than the others. So.

Unvote

Vote: joost

I'm not picking on you. I think your lurking is a legitimate tactic, it's not very smart, but legitimate. Some people here want to have you replaced. I do however think you are scum. What do you hope to achieve by lurking and by posting like you do?

Why did joost hop on an N-L vote? The reasoning Aimee gave for voting the latter was weak, in my opinion, simply that he was barely posting any content. However, that joost went to it, and backed off right after N-L asked for a replacement is odd, to me.

I hopped on Nekka because it was obvious I won't get Dusterhan lynched today. Which means my vote didn't serve any purpose. I wanted to start a new discussion and Nekka was an easy target. I wanted to increase the pressure on him to get him to talk more (2 votes mean more pressure than 1). But if he wants to get replaced then my vote has no use anymore. I don't want to lynch Nekka or his replacement so I won't put my vote on the new player unless he/she continues to lurk. I'd like to think that my vote (and Aimee's) made Nekka realize he isn't putting in as much effort as he should and that he should resign the game, but I think that's a bit optimistic.

[joost]

Happy Birthday Tinvision!

[joost]

Votes kill. If a statement is a vote. Statements kill.

Would you mind if Duster got killed?

[joost]

i've got no idea who could be mafia... so, lets leave me alone and discuss who else could be a scum

Okay, that post has convinced me you are actually scum.

Vote: Dusterhan

and I doubt I will remove this vote any time soon. If you want to prove you are pro-town you need to join this game, read all the posts and tell us what strikes you as strange or scummy. As long as you don't do that I will suspect you.

[joost]

Well I have suspected Dusterhan since his "...or am I?" post. Later on I started having doubt that he might not have understood what the game of Mafia is all about, namely reading other people's posts and drawing conclusions based on that (or of course lie through your teeth if your scum). He seemed to post without reading anything.

The he asked what questions we asked him (he could have read them) and Atticus repeated them. Now Dusterhan has acknowledged he read them and still he refuses to answer, that's downright scummy behaviour if you ask me.

[joost]

I agree with Kabenon. As long as Dusterhan keeps posting every few days and he doesn't add anything to the game but confusion, there's no need to let him live. If let him live and lynch someone else, scum will probably not kill him if he is town and he will bug us on Day 2 too. And the more people get killed the more influence Dusterhan will have on the game. I say we lynch him and get on with the game in a reasonable manner.

[joost]

EBWOP
Are Knuck and SP still around?

[joost]

I can't see why we don't just ignore him and look for other scum tells from other players.

I hear that a lot, but I don't see anyone actually doing any scum hunting. What has been going on on this thread is people saying Dusterhan is annoying and he might be scum or Dusterhan is annoying but we should ignore him.

Ignoring him doesn't mean repeating that we should ignore him. If people don't want to lynch Duster, I'd like them to say who they do find suspicious and why. Otherwise this game will just drag on the way it's been doing.

I'd like people to post their list of suspects, here's mine, High to low

Dusterhan

- For reasons I have stated several times, most importantly he's not willing to help the town and he admits it

-Tinvision-

- For his odd change of opinion and vote in posts 102 and 104. He explained himself, but as townies have more to gain by reading the game thoroughly, not reading properly is a scum-tell in my book. Also his defense of Duster by referring to a different player in a different game is odd and suspicious.

Knuck

- Ok I think I'm guilty of not reading the thread to thoroughly or maybe my memory is phailing me. I reread Knuck's posts and I saw his post #130.

Dusterhan has been absent in all of his games not just this one. He joined up as a newbie, quickly got into two games, played badly because he is young and bored, then left.

I read all Dusterhan's posts and he only signed up for 2 games. This one and Mini 492. He didn't leave any game. This is either a blatant lie or a very bad guess. Knuck mentions Duster playing like this in all of is games later in post #162 and that's when I notice it and comment on it. But I complete forgot/missed he said something similar (but much more scummy) earlier.

FoS: Knuck

SilverPhoenix

and

Nekka-Lucifer

- Both for lurking and not adding much content, we're still waiting for SP to do what he promised more than a week ago. But besides the lurking I don't have any thing concrete on them. They ahve not really helped town much.

Kabenon007

- For voting for Dusterhan not to pressure him and not to lynch him. However that's the only odd thing I could discover about Kabenon. Overall I get a townie vibe from him

Atticus

- He didn't do much to help the town at first but I think I need to get used to his style of playing. He makes very short posts most of the time and he's often very sarcastic. I need to make sure I don't confuse that with being scummy. He's been adding more content to the game lately, though I'm not sure if that's because he's getting very annoyed by Dusterhan (being in 2 games with him and all).

Destructor, Aimee, Sepiroth and Nirp

- I can't find anything suspicious on these people. They strike me as willing to help the town catch scum. I don't think one is acting more pro-town than the other, but they are on the bottom of my list together.

[joost]

Eh, ya I agree with you it does seem like I am waffling pretty hard, but as I said my defending him earlier in the game was due to me being new and not wanting someone who really has no tells either way of being scum or town(so i say town only for the fact by numbers). I realize right now though our collective best bet would to be get rid of him and see what information can be brought to us. I ALSO still believe both Joost and Kabenon007 are acting scummy by harping on Dusterhan so early and so hard, and may be scum partners. I will keep vote though and won't FOS anyone as this is purely speculation and am just throwing that out there.

Is this your first game? You say you "still believe" Kabenon and me are acting scummy. But you have not mentioned me until now. You voted for Kab but unvoted for reasons unknown.

I have mentioned you, I basically called you liar and you haven't responded. Why not? I'd like to know how you got the information that Duster left in two games.

It seems to me that you were trying to defend your scumbuddy Dusterhan until it was obvious people (besides me) are getting tired of him and want him lynched. Why do you suddenly want to join bandwagon? If we lynch Dusterhan today and he turns out to be scum you will be my next target. If he turns out to be a townie, I will probably still suspect you. Duster is unhelpful for the town whatever his alignment. People who defend him are suspicious either way.

[joost]

Learn how to read my post.

I'm learning.

I have already answered why I changed my opinion for the second time. I said that I thought he was a helpless townie being picked on for an easy lynch mainly by kabenon007 and then
you. I have answered why I changed my vote, and also said I still suspect him and you now for going so hard for a Duster lynch.

Yes, you have answered why you changed your vote to Duster. I merely stated that I think your changing your vote together with your explanation was suspicious. And this last post didn't do much to reduce that suspicion. Next time when you find someone suspicious too I would appreciate it if you said it aloud right away. When you say:

I do not like this play at all and it shows scum to me trying to pick off a helpless townie. Vote Kabenon007

It's not obvious to me that you actually mean me too. You said you still believe me to be acting scummy but you never said you were suspicious of my behaviour before, you just mentioned Kabenon.

You are right in calling me on me saying he was absent in the two games, i meant to say he wasn't posting much, my screw up on words, I was trying to get the point across though that he is doing this in more than just this game. So it shouldn't be a tell either way of what alignment he is, and again so you don't ask me why i think he is town, for the sole reason on numbers, he has no tells either way.

Do you realize that you made it sounds like it was almost impossible that Duster was scum in all of his game and that in fact he turned out to be a townie in at least one of the games he played. Being scum in 4 games is highly unlikely. Being scum in 2 games is not very likely but definitely impossible. That being said, I do think this is an adequate explanation and I don't think you tried to fool us with that post (#130 if people keep track).

Also I'd like you to learn to read my posts, I asked you a few questions and I don't think you answered them:
- Is this your first game?
- Why didn't respond to me when I said I thought you were lying?

I really wish there was more participation from everyone else though.

QFT

Mod: votecount please

[joost]

I prodded the mod. And I did a tally of the votes which is unofficial and in alphabetical order:

Dusterhan: 4 (Joost, Kabenon007, Knuck, Nekka-Lucifer)
Joost: 1 (Dusterhan)
Kabenon007: 1 (Sepiroth)
Tinvision: 1 (destructor)
Not voting: the rest

I'd like to add that Sepiroth vote was a random vote and he hasn't changed it since. I'd like him to confirm this vote.

Destructor's vote was cast on page 3 and confirmed on page 5. Is this still your opinion, Destructor?

[joost]

Yes, it was a random vote. I just wanted to know if you knew you still random voted for Kabenon. You are not willing to unvote, does that mean you think Kabenon is the most suspicious player in the game?

[joost]

Did Sephiroth contact Meme yet?

[joost]

pm sent

[joost]

Of course we can

[joost]

Woohoo!

[joost]

You have to remember, Atticus, Nekka asked to be replaced. He just was checking in and saw he hadn't been replaced, so he decided to help a bit until Cavane found one.

This is probably true and as much as I like to see Dusterhan lynched, I don't think this is a good way to work. If you haven't been active much in a game and you are waiting to be replaced, I don't think that if you post you should vote. And when you vote it's pretty suspicous that you join a pretty large bandwagon. It does seem like he's trying to help his replacement, by casting a vote on someone without having to answer for it. If Duster turns out to be townie, Nekka/Replacement will appear more scummy because of this move.

[joost]

Personally I would love to know what side Dusterhan is on. I still think it's more likely that he's scum then town. Just because of his unhelpful attitude and I think lynching him will give us a lot of information because most of this game has been about him. People have defended him and have attacked him. Also if Dusterhan is town and we lynch we don't lose much. Well we lose two townies, but probably only one helpful one. But maybe we'll get lucky and he will get replaced, he's been absent for a week.

Mod, welcome to the game and thanks for helping us out. Please prod Dusterhan

Ignore dusterhan, look for other more insidious players and lynch them.

I've heard this before and I would love to do that. I hope that when you finish your notes you will tell us who those insidious players are and why you want to lynch them, because just saying "Leave the poor newbie alone and let's look at other people" is about as helpful as

i've got no idea who could be mafia... so, lets leave me alone and discuss who else could be a scum

I'm willing to lynch other people, in fact I have explained my suspicions about some people (Tinvision and Knuck for instance) several times. And I'm open for evidence against anybody else. But right now, Dusterhan is the best lynch for the day, I think.

[joost]

Aimee:

Seems reasonably on the ball, but not too quick to wagon. See her interaction with Sephiroth as the random period ends. Vaguely pro-town feeling.

I agree with this mostly, I would like her to participate more though. She doesn't post much, though when she does she's been scumhunting and brings up good posts. I'm a bit wary that she might be really good at getting us to ignore her.

FOS Knuck

. That would probably be a vote since this game needs a kick in the pants, but it's been a long time since a vote count.

There was a vote count last thursday which did not change yet. See MeMe's post #252.

[joost]

Sorry for being absent a few days. I finally got my internet connection to work.

Ok so Dusterhan is gone.

Unvote

Welcome to the game CKD and OpposedForce. CKD, I won't ask you what you think about Duster's posting cause you'll probably agree with us that it sucked. What I would like to know is your opinion on the discussion that formed around him. I hope your next post will give us some insight.

Destructor did present us with someone else to discuss and I have to say he makes a strong point against TV. I'll need some time for a better analyses though.

[joost]

To answer your question: Not much pressure can hope to be applied, but at the beginning of the game, you take what you can get. As to your second question, it's not necessarily better. However, it's a part of an early game strategy to maximize that pressure. People pretty much ignore the first vote completely. The second vote however, as we can see clearly in this game, can get people riled. If a scum gets a vote stuck on them early that they can't be sure is random, it may shake them and lose their composure, revealing something to the town.

You are perfectly right about this. The second vote can get people riled and you might get a reaction from someone and discussion will start. But at the time you explained the vote like this:

Phoenix, there's a difference between random voting and blatant/baseless bandwagoning. If I post that I'm voting for someone because of a silly or arbitrary reason, that is pretty much the same as going to random.org and generating a random number and voting for the corresponding person.

Here you claim your voting was random and not meant to shake Knuck or anyone else. Then later you say:

I apologize if I confused with my actions in the random stage, but that was not my intention. Random pressure, in my opinion, is a legitimate tactic to spur activity and instigate revealing reactions.

First you apologize for the effect of your vote (people got riled) then you say that it actually was your intention to get a reaction. You got the reaction, why did you apologize?

Also, reading back I'd like to know why you waited so long to unvote Knuck? You said in post #58 that you would keep your vote on Knuck till he posted something of content. He posted twice after that, both posts did contain his opinions on the game so far, in one he even voted for Aimee. You never commented on what he said or how he voted so I guess you thought it was good enough. But you didn't unvote. Why not?

[joost]

Also, reading back I'd like to know why you waited so long to unvote Knuck? You said in post #58 that you would keep your vote on Knuck till he posted something of content. He posted twice after that, both posts did contain his opinions on the game so far, in one he even voted for Aimee. You never commented on what he said or how he voted so I guess you thought it was good enough. But you didn't unvote. Why not?

I didn't get a chance to post for a while, as you can clearly see by looking back.

*looking back*

post 35: "Unvote, Vote Knuck. I will fight you. And that is no lie. " AN odd statement, but we've been over this.

post 58: "Vote stands til Knuck posts something of content." Knuck has not posted between these 2 posts. He didn't react so I understand this statement.

post 64: Knuck explains his absence and writes 4 lines about Dusterhan.

post 67: Tinvision posts are rather large post. Explaining the difference between random voting and bandwagoning. Nothing about Knuck, no unvote.

post 84: Knuck posts 10 lines. Talks about Tinvisions vote on him. Notices that he has not unvoted yet. Implies TV might be scum.

post 102: Tinvision apologizes for the confusion. Says the case on Duster is shaky. Thinks people are jumpy and says that we have time to make a decent decision. Still no unvote.

post 104: Unvotes and votes for Dusterhan for lurking.

Knuck posted twice and so did you without an unvote nor any other statement about Knuck. You had time to post but not to unvote? You did get a chance to post so basically you are lying.

Vote: -Tinvision-

[joost]

Thanks for the list OpposedForce. I'd like to know one thing though. What do you think of how Knuck played the game?

Also I'd like to hear more from Nirp, Aimee and SilverPhoenix. I'm not even sure if SP is still in this game.

I'll make another player list after those three have posted something helpful (or scummy) but I don't have a lot to say that I haven't said already.

[joost]

I have to say that I'm glad to have CKD in this game at the moment. He's brought in a lot of new stuff to think about. I do have a few questions for you though:

-Tinvision- This guy is screaming newbie scum. Post 102-109 really stand out to me. Says the case against my predecessor was shaky then 1 post/vote (hour later) votes him. When he tries to explain it doesn’t make any since and looks as if he is back pedaling. Most of his posts revolve around him and not actually looking for scum. Isolating tin by himself I would say scum.

Would you hammer him now if you had the chance?

Destructor- think he is actively looking for scum. Asks questions and probes. Could be scum playing a good game. There is no real actions (votes) to judge him on except for his constant push on Tinvision (who I feel is scum as well). Never really jump on predecessor’s BW, which would have been an easy lynch. Getting a good vibe from him.

Do you think it's a good thing he didn't jump on the Duster wagon? And do you think it's a town tell not to do so?

Knuck/opposedforce – Knuck defended duster early in the BW with metagaming. Seemed to pressure those who were attacking duster. Then changes, saying that he doesn’t think Duster is scum, but his lynch would help the town provide information. UGH. A day later, he votes duster even though he thinks he is town (poor play). Then he thinks kabenon and joost are scummy for harping on duster when Knuck’s vote was on duster too. (scum play). His last post, he is defending himself against joost and ends with a deflect (poor play). All opposedforce has done is do a PbP and has jumped on the tinvision bandwagon. I am putting opposedforce in the sucm category for now basically for Knuck’s bad play.

Is poor play the same as scum play? And if not, is your suspicion based on that one scum play argument you mentioned?

Sephiroth- in the beginning I didn’t like seph’s play at all. Post 83 seemed like a backtrack/lie.
Later he says he is not “yet” suspicious of duster, which is a contradiction. Later he does a PbP and puts duster in his top 4 suspects..along with 2 lurkers and Kab who was attacking duster. So Seph felt like Kab was acting weird in his attack of duster (defending his vote), but is ok with a duster lynch. Seems like Seph, is trying to set up Kab, when duster comes up town in a lynch seph was for. Anyone else think that odd? Last post was 09/28, attacking destructor for “defending” duster. Has crap argument on why leaving duster alive is a bad idea…no to mention, he never had his vote on duster….SUSPICIOUS PLAY!!! Leaning scum.

Good catch on Sephiroth. I will have to reread him. What exactly is crap about the argument on lynching Duster (besides the fact that he never voted for Duster himself)?

This game is suffering from a lot of inactive players.

QFT

I would like to see a new updated suspect list from [Sephiroth]

QFT

[joost]

Okay a lot has been posted since I checked this. I'm too tired at the moment to post but I'll do that tomorrow or the day after.

[joost]

Ok a post about what has been happening here"

I can't ignore this

Good catch on Sephiroth. I will have to reread him. What exactly is crap about the argument on lynching Duster (besides the fact that he never voted for Duster himself)?

I thought you were a better player then to call this mess of misrepresentations and assumptions "a good catch".

I probably phrased that wrongly. What I mean was that CKD pointed out things that until then were unaddressed. I was complimenting him about added renewed opinions to the game. Note that I said I needed to reread you and that at the time I couldn't really tell if it was or was not a "mess of misrepresentations", although at the time it seemed like a good arguement. I do however feel that Sephiroth defended himself well in his post 305 and I think he's protown as he's actively trying to catch scum (and picking fights with almost everybody).

I'm not sure about CKD, I'm still suspicious of him as he's Duster's replacement and I'd like to hear his reasons for using the words "crap arguement" about not wanting to keep Duster alive. I find it odd that he take a stand in the Duster debate. But I am not sure if Seph's defends makes CKD more suspicous... I think not, to be honest.

Also, atticus, how is this:

Ugh! I can't get a read on anybody! 'Tis frustrating! I've still got nothing for you guys.

different from this:

i've got no idea who could be mafia... so, lets leave me alone and discuss who else could be a scum

I was planning on posting the same comparison

which warranted this?

Dusterhan... Tsk tsk tsk... You need to stop volunteering for things you can't do. Examples: answering questions, playing the game mafia.

I forgot about this quote from Atticus.

FoS: Atticus

.

And it was kind of like a build up of pressure, starting with that post of dusterhan's vote count please, building building building and then wham, a coup de graux (i don't know how to spell that) with his "I'm still here" post. That was the last straw. So I voted, cuz my opinion changed. There you have it.

This seems like a weak arguement. I believe someone can change his mind, but I don't believe about pressure building. Pressure on whom? What kind of pressure?

[joost]

Welcome to the game Shanba

[joost]

If needed

Unvote, vote: vampyrusddg

.

Who did he replace? Nekka-Lucifer.

Why do I suspect him?
A) NL only made roughly 2 posts worth of contentful information. While in that stage of the game I was not much better, I admit, I do find this suspicious. Also, he makes a post asking for someone to explain why dusterhan is under suspicion. When asked about it, he explained that he didn't find dh scummy. Later votes dusterhan with little explanation.

B) Vampyrusdog's outrageous post being suspicious of me and dusterhan. In it, he claims that I sent him 2 questions (no four) which asked him for things that gave him a cop-out. This depends on us both being scum and me using a clever tactic to get a dumb person to answer in the correct way. Is away for awhile. FoS's Sephiroth for suspecting kabenon.

Vampyrusddg seems noncommittal. N-L seemed absent. Not much to read, but what there is to read seems scummy.

Good posting. I'd like to read an answer from Vamp to this. Also I think his vote for CKD is actually Nekka's vote for Dusterhan. Vamp should either confirm it or remove it.

[joost]

This has gone far enough,

FoS: CuriousKarmaDog

You replaced Dusterhan, it's faily silly of Sephiroth to have forgotten that. But Cavane's first post still includes Duster as player and there have been several replacements already. The fact that you use this obvious mistake (it's not a lie, not a scumtell nor a towntell) as an argument makes me suspicious of you. It distracts from his arguments which for the most part seem solid.

I don't think anybody including you can claim that Dusterhan was helpful for the town. In fact some of his posts were confusing and disruptive. Whatever his role in this game, his actions were anti-town. Sephiroth was not the only one to say that. I agree with you that the fact that Seph didn't vote for Duster was suspicious. But I (and several others) were willing to lynch him and accept the consequences if he came up town. I don't think getting rid of a disruptive player is a bad thing even if his role is townie.

Had Duster not been replaced he would have made it to the end game and the fact that his only tactic seemed to be OMGUS he would have been dangerous to the town. Sephiroth was right to point that out, and like I said, he wasn't the only one. You yourself said that you were susprised he didn't get lynched yet.

Besides that there is the fact that since everyone had given his opinion on Duster and the dusterwagon, a lynch would have given us a lot of information. I feel it's a weaker argument, but you have ignored this completely and instead focused on silly mistakes and the meaning of scummy behaviour vs scummy people.

I feel Sephiroth has explained himself and I don't find him scummy.

[joost]

I am calling him out, joost...

he called duster scummy, then when duster's wagon rose, he came out and said he never thought duster was suspicious. I think he did this so once duster was hung and it came out he was town, he could say "hey look, I never voted for him" essentially buying himself some town creds.

He said it was a good idea to lynch Duster. But I agree with you that he should have voted for him.

When I called him out on it, he comes back with “I never thought duster was scummy.” He wants the town to believe that he thought duster's POSTS were scummy and his ACTIONS were anti-town, but he never thought duster himself was scum. Joost, are you telling me you believe this?

From what I understand, and I agree with this, it didn't matter to him if Duster's role was town or not. He was unhelpful and disruptive and a liability to the town. So yes I believe this.

Before I replaced in he was pushing to lynch someone he thought was town...again, joost, are you ok with lynching townie, versus trying to find scum?

I thought Duster was scum and I'm getting more and more confident that I was right. But even if Duster was town I was ok with the lynch. I also don't think that it interfered with finding scum. While I was trying to get Duster lynched I noticed a lot of interesting behaviour on others, like Knuck and Tinvision.

Then he is pushing a theory (maybe not a lie) that I must be scum because I know duster is town and he is not one of my buddies, not even checking the facts before putting it out there. Now he is going to be putting together a case against me, but he knows nothing about what is going on in this game. Ask yourself this, why is he so sure I am scum, when he does even know who I am replacing? Are you willingly to believe any case this guy pushes when it is obvious he does not have a handle on the game?..I am looking forward to reading the OMGUS vote and case.

I called Seph's mistake silly, maybe sloppy and careless better describe it and it does weaken his credibility as a player. But you could have used this argument right away instead of basically making fun of him. But like I said making a mistake like this is not a scum tell. Destroying someone's arguments by dangling it in someone's face is. The fact that you ignored his arguments and focused on this is why I find you suspicious and why I stopped this.

FOS joost

Why did you take it upon yourself to correct him joost? You werent curious how far he would have tried to take it....it would have told us a lot about him..

It would probably have told us a lot about him, but I don't think it's a very gentlemanlike way of playing the game. That is why I stopped it. Is there any reason besides OMGUS that you find me suspicious?

I feel I have defended Sephiroth enough now.

[joost]

Yes I'm waiting for a Tinvision bandwagon at the moment. I find him more scummy than you at the moment which is why I'm not voting for you yet.

Technically I'm here to win the game and part of my strategy is finding scum, another part is preventing people who are pro-town to get lynched. Which is why I found it necessary to speak up. I think defending people is not a thing only scum would do. I am willing to link myself with Sephiroth and I will probably suffer the consequences if I'm wrong and Seph turns up scum. But between you and him, I think you're scum and he's not.

Someone who is town would stop a player who is trying to confuse the town by letting someone make mistakes which can easily be corrected. Bad play does not equal scum play and using bad play as evidence for scumminess is in itself a scummy thing to do.

[joost]

I'm thinking this might be a lynch and I am willing to lynch CKD at the moment.

unvote, vote: curiouskarmadog

I've stated my reason before and I mostly agree with Seph's Alphabet post. But here's a short summary:
- Duster's play was what I thought was newbie scum play. He seemed to want to end the day soon to use his night kill.
- Duster was unwilling to help town.
- CKD's attempt to "discredit" Sephiroth by withholding information from him.
- CKD's appeal to emotion. I have not brought this up before but I agree with Kabenon and Seph on this.Townies should attack on arguments not on feelings.
- "ok if I am hung, and I come up town" We will see that when your dead, won't we? If you are hung and you come up town, I will reasses your posts. But I doubt you will.
-

I wouldn’t have a problem with you if you simply admitted you thought duster was scummy

Translation: "It would be a better play to identify a mafiamember and lynch them than to lynch them eventhough you think they are town and just get lucky." This seems like a soft scum claim.
- Your OMGUS FoS on me.

I would like to hear the others about what has been happening here and a

Vote count, please

would be nice.

[joost]

I agree with Kabenon on this, Shanba, that line stuck out to me too.

Despite CKD's flawed logic, however, I'm not sold on him being scum. Going back to the anti-town/scummy distinction we set up, I believe craplogic to be anti-town, rather than scummy.

I do not believe that any scum would deliberately argue something they knew was wrong

- in which case, it becomes more a function of CKD's style rather than his alignment. OTOH, the appeals to emotion do oncern me, and I haven't yet made up my mind as to whether misrepresentations are scummy (I'm leaning towards yes, because though they seem to fall under the same logic as craplogic, actually they're often more indicative of not paying attnetion, a definite trend I've seen in scum.) Still, I would put him around third on my list.

I agree with Kabenon on this, Shanba, that line stuck out to me too.
Just for the record, your top three is Kabenon, OpposedForce, CKD now? Btw did you think Dusterhan's behaviour was scummy or just anti-town?

[joost]

I don't want to spend the rest of the game tiptoeing around anti-town and scum and scummy but let me say this.

I think CKD is scum by which I mean his role is Mafia or at least he does not win with the town. I find his actions scummy. I think scum is always anti-town but anti-town does not mean scummy per se.

I think Tinvisions confirmed vote, which was fairly unbacked by arguments is slightly scummy. But since I think he's voting for scum I wouldn't call his actions anti-town. Vampyrusddg's case is more or less the same but he backed up his vote with better reasoning and so he looks less scummy than TV.

[joost]

That is more or less correct. Though Vamp is much less suspicious than you or Tinvision. I am willing to lynch either of you today, but not Vamp.

[joost]

Yeah I think it's best to wait for input of others before starting a new Sephiroth-CKD discussion. I'm particularly interested in Destructors opinion.

[joost]

Ok so basically we are waiting for Destructor, Aimee, Atticus and Flameaxe to catch up on their reading.

OF seems to be MIA

Mod, please prod OpposedForce

[joost]

Ouch

[joost]

Happy Birthday Jdodge!

Caught up on reading. Assuming one of Sephiroth/CKD is scum, I'd go with CKD.

Am I voting for you? Good.

(I have really limited access at the moment, so am finding it hard to keep up. I will try to re-read over the weekend.)

I hope you will explain this statement later.

[joost]

If needed

Unvote, vote: vampyrusddg

.

Who did he replace? Nekka-Lucifer.

Why do I suspect him?
A) NL only made roughly 2 posts worth of contentful information. While in that stage of the game I was not much better, I admit, I do find this suspicious. Also, he makes a post asking for someone to explain why dusterhan is under suspicion. When asked about it, he explained that he didn't find dh scummy. Later votes dusterhan with little explanation.

B) Vampyrusdog's outrageous post being suspicious of me and dusterhan. In it, he claims that I sent him 2 questions (no four) which asked him for things that gave him a cop-out. This depends on us both being scum and me using a clever tactic to get a dumb person to answer in the correct way. Is away for awhile. FoS's Sephiroth for suspecting kabenon.

Vampyrusddg seems noncommittal. N-L seemed absent. Not much to read, but what there is to read seems scummy.

First, I would like vampyrusddg to answer these questions I posed to him earlier.

Uhm... I see only two questions in that post, both of which you answered yourself. Is there anything specific you'd like to know?

[joost]

Actually he is. Why do you think he isn't?

[joost]

How would his vote be OMGUS when he's presenting a case against you? OMGUS refers to a knee jerk action directed back at someone who just attacked you with no case behind it.
As it is Sephiroth has presented an eloquent well thought out case against you and you started off defending yourself fairly well, but it's now obvious your scum going to pieces over 1 vote, an FOS, and an old vote left by me which if I'd realised was there would probably have removed.

But at least that saves me the trouble of moving it

Here he confirms his vote.

[joost]

I'll be away till Wednesday.

I'll keep my vote on CKD.

[joost]

Crap, I was hoping I could be the engine behind your lynch. The fact that you keep stressing that you claimed vanilla townie makes me think you are not one. Also you are pointing out the obvious, Seph and me and probably Kabenon will have some problems if you turn out like you claimed, but there is no need to point that out. Unless you are trying to scare Seph away from your lynch. I think you claimed Vanilla to make yourself more believable and then you could use "Better lynch me than a power role" as an appeal to emotion as in "I will sacrifice myself for the greater good." But the fact is that if you get lynched it will be your own doing (well and Duster's). You have use strange arguments and appeals to emotion and that makes me think you are scum. Also you seem to try to shift attention to an easy target, Kabenon.

That being said, I think Shanba makes a strong case against Kabenon. Kab is appealing to emotion and authority, as Shanba points out, as well and trying to disarm Shanba's good arguments by using his name a lot and more or less talking to him like he's a child.
"Have a change of thought there, Shanba?",
"So, who is wrong, Shanba?"
"Don't you think you are stretching just a bit far on this one, Shanba?"

I think talking like this makes you look like you have something to hide and you are trying to discredit a player by making him look inferior to you, almost like what CKD did to Seph. A pro-town player might use phrases like that to put pressure on a suspect, but to use it as a defense against attacks on you seems scummy. I think it's very likely that Kabenon is CKD's scumbuddy, but I will have to reread them both. So far:

FoS: Kabenon007

Aimee, when did you become almost as bad as me?

Almost? She's become worse than you... I'd like Aimee to answer to this accusation because she's been attacking Atticus for what she has been doing these past few weeks. Posting non ontent and just confirming her suspicions on Atticus. I would like to see a post of content about CKD and Kabenon and actually on all players.

FoS: Aimee

for lurking in plain site, in a way that is not like her regular playstyle. Usually she doesn't post much but when she does she has something to add.

Also where are Opposed Force and Flameaxe?

BTW, I'm back

[joost]

I'm still waiting for the case on Aimee, or on a case from Aimee or on a case form Destructor.

[joost]

I've been significantly less impressed with joosts play later in this game compared to his play earlier. He was scum-hunting and even leading discussion earlier on, and I liked where he was going with it. But lately he seems to have been jumping onto other's case without contributing much himself.

Yeah I haven't really been into this game lately, I'm kinda disappointed in all the lurkers. I could say the same about you though, until your last post you didn't really do much scum hunting.

I'll give my current list of suspects now, from high to low.

CKD: He's burdened with the heritage of Dusterhan. I won't repeat what I thought about him. CKD has been the opposite of Duster, posting a lot and being aggresive. But his logic tends to be flawed and that trick he pulled with Seph smelled like scum to me. Then there's the constant Vanilla Townie claim, I'm not really sure what he's trying to do here. Maybe he's hoping that people will believe him and back off. But if it's true that he would rather have him lynched than a power role, he doesn't need to repeat he's vanilla. I have a hard time believing him and that's why he's my no. 1 suspect and I think he's a good lynch for today.

Tinvision: He's been quiet lately, maybe

TV needs a prod

. His scummy behaviour happened a long time ago. His strange random voting behaviour and the quick vote on Duster right after a post in which he says we shouldn't. I also find it strange that he uses a lot of words to defend himself and as little as possible to argue his case on others. This is usually a scum tell. I'm willing to lynch him too if there is a large enough bandwagon.

OpposedForce: This is purely based on Knucks play, the odd Duster vote made him stand out to me. OF did not add much to this game as yet, though his LoS did not seem very scummy to me. I would not lynch him right now if I had the chance. But he's high on my suspect list.

Kabenon: I don't know about him, he's pretty active in the game and he doesn't seem to be a lurker. But he also suddenly changed his mind about Duster too, but that seems to be a trend in this game. He did appeal to emotions a lot as Shanba indicated but after reading his posts in isolation it seems that he might just be careful not to pick fights with any pro-town players. I think he's slightly more likely to be scum than town.

Aimee: Atticus' post did show that Aimee is not adding much to the game. She's been absent and this is her style but she's usually more eloquent and her posting is more thorough if she does post in other games I've read. Here she's just not putting in the effort, and I'm inclined to think that is because she's scum in this game. But it could also be her busy schedule. Not a good lynch yet, but I hope she posts more and adds more content.

Atticus: I think what he are seeing of Atticus is his style and can't really see anything more scummy than the fact that he posts oneliners. But his effort to add content by posting his suspicions of Aimee make me think he's likely to be town.

Flameaxe: I'm not sure where to put him an the list. Basically he's been invisible as was his predecessor. He could be lurking scum, but just as likely be lurking town. He's not helping the town though.

Vampyrusddg: He seems to be actively scumhunting when he's active. I'd put him in the town category. He raises some new arguments which is always a good thing, though I don't believe Atticus was trying to signal to Duster.

Sephiroth: Is active and aggressive but I think his logic is correct and I see very little scummy behaviour from him. The only thing that was scummy was his refusal to vote for Duster while claiming he was a good lynch. I have a strong pro-town feeling about him.

Shanba: Has been actively scumhunting. Has added new pov's to the game and he has a good case on Kabenon. Also there was very little scummy about Nirp. Very likely to be town.

Destructor: When he's active he's posting like a good pro-town player. Not afraid to argue against the masses and raises solid points on his suspects. He's in my eyes least likely to be scum. If he is scum he's very good at it.

[joost]

Ridiculous. By the very act of bringing it up, you insinuate we are linked based simply on one post where they agree with me. Do you not see why this worries me?

Shanba, you're ignoring that both Tin and Atticus have mostly lurked through this day, meaning each of their posts are more meaningful than single posts of other players you mentioned. This is why I found it notable. Quoting myself:

Two of the players I find most suspicious, who are very inactive, both manage a post to express agreement with you.

Was this not clear enough?

Sure it's pretty clear and perhaps it's worth noting that they did agree with Shanba, but what are you trying to prove here? Do you think Shanba has the same alignment as Tin and Atticus? Does that mean you think Shanba is suspicious too? Or do you think that they were both trying to score town credits by agreeing with someone they both know is pro-town (assuming these two are scum;

"Two of the players I find most suspicious"

).

[joost]

joost, do you think CKD is more likely scum than TinVision?

At this time, yes I think CKD is more likely scum. But a lot of that is based on the fact that he posted more than TV and therefor he is more likely to show scummy behaviour. But that and Duster's play makes me convinced he's scum and I'm more than willing to lynch him today. I am prepared to lynch TV too, but I don't think that will happen today.

[joost]

Nobody feels like responding to what I said about CKD being the best lynch by far?

I agree with you, but you don't add many new things. And asking what we think about your arguments (which have been brought up by other people before) makes me think you are distancing yourself from CKD and you want everyone to know you are doing it.

I think CKD's lynch will provide valuable information about almost everybody in the game. But if he turns up scum you are likely his buddy.