Mini 549 (Tarhalindur Mostly Mountainous) - Game Over

[Ectomancer]

vote slysly

Oh you knew that one was coming!

Pre-emptively

fos Earwig

for lurking.

[Ectomancer]

Was it the time delay (or lack of one) moreso that caused you to vote for him, or the fact that he used your reasoning for casting a vote? It could also be construed that your vote was your 2nd OMGUS reaction in a short span of time.

[Ectomancer]

why do I have 2 votes?

Vote count and actual votes show you have 1 vote. Are you planning to get your facts wrong this entire game? I need to establish early whether you have this tendency, as it could contribute unfairly to your lynch later. As I don't see this statement being inherently scummy, it could mean you do it as either town or scum (to the detriment of the town, unfortunately), and so I don't think I'll be lynching you over sloppy play.

I do question why you would be concerned, even if you did have 2 votes, in the random stage. If votes are truly random, then we

should

see occasional votes landing on the same person. In fact, what would be odd is if every single person received exactly 1 vote. Those would be long odds indeed, and I would have to strongly suspect that someone's "random" vote wasn't so random after all.
So why the concern Tamuz?

[Ectomancer]

I think I see the problem. Rosso Carne has 2 votes, but only Tamuz's name is next to it. You probably misread the text and assumed you had 2 votes. (Also there can't be 12 of us not voting

tweaks the mod

)

The question yet remains, why would you be concerned in the random phase on page 1, even if there should be 2 votes on you?

Moving beyond the random stage...

vote Tamuz

[Ectomancer]

Hey Mr. Aggressive. I wasn't saying that I have two votes on me, I was saying that I have the power of 2 votes. Hence the "Why do I have two votes?"

Maybe I'm hallucinating, but there is a little 2 by RC's vote count, but only one person there. I think it would be good to establish why I have that little power, or if its a mod mistake.

So how about you get your head out of your arse and stop spinning my words. My fact are right, the only potential is that my eyes are wrong.

As I had assumed that you would be bright enough to peruse the votes and see that Rosso Carne did indeed have 2 votes made on him, and the mod simply neglected to add the 2nd name, it made more sense to me that you simply read the vote count in reverse. Otherwise, anyone who can count can see that your 1 vote doesn't count for 2, simply that the mod made a mistake.

unvote

- by my own assessment, I can't blame you for being too lazy to count the votes yourself.

[Ectomancer]

ectomancer's quick accusation of tamuz reeks of scum to me
his logic doesnt make any sense and i get the feeling he was trying to start a quick day 1 bandwagon for no reason

fos:ectomancer

Clearly you have me pegged. There is absolutely no reason to ever move beyond the random stage of voting

[Ectomancer]

I was calling thenextepisode Clearly. It is one of my terms of endearment.

[Ectomancer]

ectomancer's quick accusation of tamuz reeks of scum to me
his logic doesnt make any sense and i get the feeling he was trying to start a quick day 1 bandwagon for no reason

fos:ectomancer

Clearly you have me pegged. There is absolutely no reason to ever move beyond the random stage of voting

Very defensive... >_<

The word you are looking for is sarcastic.

[Ectomancer]

Trying to get in my good graces Earwig? Scum...

[Ectomancer]

I was calling thenextepisode Clearly.

Is calling thenextepisode Clearly anything like picking the wrong week to stop sniffin glue?

It's exactly like that. Where are you going with this other than to pad your post count?

[Ectomancer]

Vote: Blackberry

Yes, I realize that puts Blackberry at 3 votes - no danger of lynch yet.

What's this line all about? No danger of lynch yet? Isn't that rather the whole point of a vote, to lynch someone? Why do you need to reassure us that he is in no actual danger?

[Ectomancer]

Blackberry, the behavior they are talking about is one I've heard described as "lurking in plain sight". It is scummy behavior to me.

I still argue there is no such thing as "looking active," you are either active or not action. Posting content or not posting content. Being active and posting content are two unrelated concepts that do not intertwine.

This is just semantics. I believe you know what they are talking about. Why split hairs with an argument over "active" and "content"? What do you think about Jester's comments concerning Rosso's posts 26, 28, and 33?

[Ectomancer]

Blackberry, the behavior they are talking about is one I've heard described as "lurking in plain sight". It is scummy behavior to me.

I still argue there is no such thing as "looking active," you are either active or not action. Posting content or not posting content. Being active and posting content are two unrelated concepts that do not intertwine.

This is just semantics. I believe you know what they are talking about. Why split hairs with an argument over "active" and "content"? What do you think about Jester's comments concerning Rosso's posts 26, 28, and 33?

[Ectomancer]

Blackberry, the behavior they are talking about is one I've heard described as "lurking in plain sight". It is scummy behavior to me.

I still argue there is no such thing as "looking active," you are either active or not action. Posting content or not posting content. Being active and posting content are two unrelated concepts that do not intertwine.

This is just semantics. I believe you know what they are talking about. Why split hairs with an argument over "active" and "content"? What do you think about Jester's comments concerning Rosso's posts 26, 28, and 33?

Are you quoting yourself to cause confusion?

I'm quoting it because I don't believe my Blackberry has responded to that last line.

[Ectomancer]

Does anyone feel that the FoS count is significant?

Earwig, I'm happy because you are scum and my vote is on you. berry is suspect though.

Might I recommend reading Rule 6a again? - Tar

Ordinarily I think not really, but I've never had it tracked in the vote count before. It might be interesting to see, but I don't know how significant it will really become.

BlackBerry, it is odd that you would mention a theory, but not want expound upon it, even if it turned out to be false. Is there still some portion of the theory you are hoping to be born out that revealing would render invalid? Otherwise I'm not quite following your reasoning.

[Ectomancer]

its his own theory, and although i think it might be helpful, its just metagaming. and metagaming does not win games.

Well hello! You must have forgotten to login as BlackBerry

[Ectomancer]

Does anyone feel that the FoS count is significant?

Earwig, I'm happy because you are scum and my vote is on you. berry is suspect though.

Might I recommend reading Rule 6a again? - Tar

Ordinarily I think not really, but I've never had it tracked in the vote count before. It might be interesting to see, but I don't know how significant it will really become.

BlackBerry, it is odd that you would mention a theory, but not want expound upon it, even if it turned out to be false. Is there still some portion of the theory you are hoping to be born out that revealing would render invalid? Otherwise I'm not quite following your reasoning.

I have hope that one day my theory will have signifigance in something. But I do not wish to reveal my theory as I do not wish people to adapt to it or analyze it before me.

Satisfied?

Yep.

[Ectomancer]

BlackBerry, you might have missed when I asked you about Jester's comments on Rosso's posts 26, 28, and 33? Would post 97 fall into the same category?

[Ectomancer]

blackberry, if you were so keen on keeping this theory to yourself, then why couldnt you have just kept it to yourself entirely?
and i dont know if its just ecto's playstyle, but he seems overly aggressive and it feels scummy to me
and 3 votes on earwig is making me uneasy

unvote

I think you could check just about any of my games for that answer. Lazy scum.

[Ectomancer]

Satisfied?

I think it is the consensus of the town that a full explanation of your theory would be satisfactory.

Actually, I was content with his explanation for not revealing it yet and was willing to let him ride. It will be something interesting to bring back out when he's had more time with it.

[Ectomancer]

A mock fight? I asked questions and he answered them. Are you seeding a future lynch pairing? Bad Johoohno...

An Sk is a good speculation for what

Mostly

mounainous could mean. We still need to watch out for other possibilites and let the evidence guide our assumptions.

[Ectomancer]

Blackberry: Coming out with some "theory" (when you could have easily kept it to yourself) and than jumping on people and being very defense on legit questions what said "theory" was isn't helpful to the town (it's distracting) Now we've got players who find you hiding something (which to me seems a stretch) It's not worth a vote but I have to admit I don't understand your intentions for doing this and keeping it up.

FoS: Blackberry

I agree he could have kept that he was researching a theory to himself until he found evidence to support it. Having responded to me that he is still riding on it for awhile, I'm willing to accept why he wouldn't want to reveal it just yet, though I dont know about the style of response to the first people who asked him about it, could be his usual playstyle.
What I don't understand is why you are blaming him for doing it and keeping it up? Perhaps because people keep bringing it up and he has to respond to it? Or do you mean that you don't understand why he has stuck to his guns after the pressure over it? I'm more apt to believe that someone who holds out like that is straight talking than scum stalling to make up something. Maybe face to face a stutter or stall when talking might mean he is trying to buy time, but on the internet? You've got hours to sit there and come up with something if needed.

[Ectomancer]

Vote: Tamuz

for not responding, and for not explaining.

Delayed OMGUS, interesting.

On what point are you being OMGUS'd? I didn't see a reason for your vote. Earwig's vote seems to be a prod for an answer from you. He did provide 2 more reasons for his vote than you did for yours after all.

[Ectomancer]

i agree with nyktorion, RC, why did you vote for earwig?

Tagalong query, but you neglect to address Tamuz's unexplained vote as well? Are you really curious about why people are voting for Earwig? (Yes, I realize Nyktorian did not address it either, but I'm interested in your response.) What stood out for me was that you came to Tamuz' defense in post 37 by tossing an fos on me for attacking him early (and moving us out of the random stage), and now you are omitting him from a query involving unexplained votes on Earwig. Oversight?

@Rosso Carne - What's going on with you? After being accused of some fluff posts, you toss out an unexplained vote, and then when pressured, you can't explain the reason until after a re-read? And you will probably unvote him, erasing the first mafiascum move you have made? It makes it look like you voted him simply to make a contribution, but had no plan beyond the vote.

[Ectomancer]

ecto- i wasnt so much defending Tamuz as I was suspecting your overly aggressive play. regardless of the player, that would have been my response.
I was under the impression that Tamuz's vote was during the random phase of hte game, but Ill have to go back and reread.

Hmm, I may have missed that. If so, it makes sense not to bother him over it. I think it makes Rosso's vote without reason even more suspect. It makes little sense to add pressure to someone without explaining what they are supposed to be feeling pressured about.

[Ectomancer]

How do you know what Blackberry's theory is?

he said "i have to read earwigs other games"

thats the definition of metagaming.

it didnt mesh.

are you a dumbass or just on drugs?

Does insulting people make you feel like a better player? I asked why him reading Earwig's game was an obvious reason for his theory (he could have thought he found a tell and was looking to see if it was done earlier) if you don't have an intelligent answer to my question, don't answer.

He said it was obvious metagaming, not that the theory was obvious. You two quit muddying the waters by being too dim to understand each other.

ok dont fluff it, im not semi-lurking

im just plain lurking.

truth is this game is nowhere because all ive seen is people going after homo because of his untold (and obvious metagame) theory.

You're lurking with fluff posts, but that's semantics. Are you going to avoid justifying your vote on Earwig again? How about that re-read?

[Ectomancer]

ecto- i wasnt so much defending Tamuz as I was suspecting your overly aggressive play. regardless of the player, that would have been my response.
I was under the impression that Tamuz's vote was during the random phase of hte game, but Ill have to go back and reread.

Hmm, I may have missed that. If so, it makes sense not to bother him over it. I think it makes Rosso's vote without reason even more suspect. It makes little sense to add pressure to someone without explaining what they are supposed to be feeling pressured about.

I went back and looked, his vote was after what I would consider the random stage. It appeared to be in direct response to Earwig's previous post though, so I think his reasoning was implied, rather than expressly stated. Your response still looks good.

[Ectomancer]

Sounds to me as a lot of old arguments are only spinning in circles right now. Seems as if the town has five lynch candidates:

Rosso - The condescending and uninformative poster
Blackberry - The flamboyant poster
Earwig - The amnesiac poster
Tamuz - The lurking non-poster
thenextepisode - The (theory) inquisitive poster

Which one of these gentlemen do you all feel okay to lynch today? I can’t say I have a strong case against anyone of them, but I’m willing to swing my vote to almost anyone of them to increase some pressure. (Though, as of now, I would prefer either Earwig or Tamuz (and possibly a dark horse: slysly) to be the lynch of the day.)

I do not like this post. O_o

Me either and my name isn't on it like yours is.

[Ectomancer]

I'm taking that to be a rhetorical question.

[Ectomancer]

It makes it look like you voted him simply to make a contribution, but had no plan beyond the vote.

Take out the word "contribution" and replace it with the word "post". After that, QFT. Then mutter something darkly about Rosso just trying to stay off the "72 hours between posts" radar.

Point taken. Unless the mod is willing to relax the strict posting requirements, I'll have to take this possible motivation into account. I believe his vote moved his actions beyond a simple post, however. If, as you say, it was simply an effort to stay off the posting radar, he could have chosen a better method, especially if he really had no other reason behind the vote. You will notice that he has yet to answer to his reasoning for the vote, and has not mentioned his "re-read" again. I hate to use bully tactics to get an answer, but he has provided additional reasoning for suspecting his motives in this game, with an additional meta on top of it all to spur him to re-evaluate his use of labels.

vote Rosso

[Ectomancer]

if youre going to vote me because me and berry make fun of one another, please calm down.

If you are going to straw man my vote, sign up for another game. You'll have an opening soon.

[Ectomancer]

@ RangeroftheNorth:

1.

Scummy not reading posts and rules?

I might be wrong, but I was under the impression that it is especially important for townies to read other players posts thoroughly to find gaps in logic and reasoning in order to find scum - I, for instance try to take notes during the game, and I believe other to do that as well. If you are scum you can perhaps get away without taking notes. Then when you find a person that you want to throw suspicion on you can just go back and find appropriate quotes and put them together in a way that fits your plan. I don't say that as a way how all scum play, but it surely is one way. I believe that those mentioned did just that. (I would like to get some comments on this, am I on the right track or in the blue.)

I think thats a dangerous meta for multiple reasons
1. Provable?
2. Detectable?
3. You can't case study how others play, and nobody will let you see their stack of notes in a game you both are in EXCEPT scum(buddies)
4. I doubt many scum play that way.

Good posting, except for number 4, which is just WIFOMy, yet makes the point in its own way, as Johoohno's entire assumption is WIFOMy. As a followup to his "lynch list", I would give this a D-

What was the purpose of your list Johoono? Were you hoping to inspire other such lists? It would be most convenient for scum to know which players are near the top of most players lists. Easier to know which townie you can get a lynch on isn't it?

[Ectomancer]

Rosso Carne has been jumping to defend or agree with blackberry this whole game, the latest example being post 229.
i believe this is a likely scum pair.
Lynching one or the other, IMO, are one and the same.
so i will be

unvote

ing blackberry and placing my

vote

on

Rosso Carne

i believe this puts him at L -2.
If anyone puts him at L-1 i WILL unvote until the case is stronger, because we dont want to quicklynch anyone.

This post gives me the creeps. I hate scum pairings this early. The last sentence just makes it worse. "Im going to vote, but watch that someone else doesn't vote or I will jump right off!"

Ordinarily the scum angel on my left shoulder and the town angel on my right shoulder can each come up with a rational for a players statements. In this case, the scum angel has 3 angles. In the first, TheNextscum sees 2 townies, and doesn't care which of them gets lynched. In the 2nd, the creepiness of the post is designed to scare people off that vote by causing them to think #1 (it sure is making me want to unvote RC). In the 3rd, he is trying to avert the growing pressure slowly being ratcheted up on Ryan by putting the focus on a different wagon, since he can't get anything going on Blackberry himself.
I look over at my town angel though, and he is just shrugging his shoulders. TheNexttownie is stirring the pot? Maybe?

The 2nd angle doesn't make a lot of sense to me (I cant see scum drawing fire from a scumbuddy to himself by looking scummy on purpose). The 3rd angle is simply more speculation, and without evidence acquired by some motivation other than a desire to test that theory, it is one not worth pursuing, especially when angle #1 is much simpler.
As town angel has little explanation for me, and scum angle #1 is more likely than scum angle #2 or #3:

unvote Rosso Carne

vote TheNextEpisode

[Ectomancer]

I just got poked by Tarhalindur.

Johoohno - you're focusing way too much on setup. Just play the game.

This was supposed to be contribution?

[Ectomancer]

I'm still speculating about a possible setup (perhaps that is unwise(?), but I've only been in games with an open setup and am under the impression that thoughts and information is helpful) and some actions in this game so far are leading me to think that we might have a jester in the crew.

What do you think? Is it possible that we have a jester or am I only seeing things (I was jester in a game that just ended - see my signature - and it might have affected my beliefs)?

I've yet to play in a game with one, also there seems to be a distaste for the role in a significant segment of the population here that makes its use uncommon. (in my experience) If you believe there to be one, you must have a specific player in mind. As a posting restriction is reputed to accompany a Jester role, why don't you try testing that theory by pressing them until you are satisfied that they most likely do not have a post restriction, and as a corollary are also probably not a Jester?

[Ectomancer]

A curious situation indeed RotN. My suspicious mind says that, if TNE is scum as my vote merits, a scum buddy is just as likely to join the wagon as not. Distancing is a small part of the reason, but there are 2 others. As a wagon builds, a scumbuddy hopping off can lead a trail of lemmings to do the same, effectively killing the wagon on his buddy. In addition, town is traditionally squeamish about lynches that build like this, oftentimes causing even the original voter to drop off from the bad vibes.
I'm staying on. My reasons were good and I'm not going to be scared off before I'm either reassured or better evidence arrives to merit my vote on someone else.

[Ectomancer]

if Blackberry were active he would have jumped on my wagon too.

Thats a fallacy.

It's an assumption. As is yours.

[Ectomancer]

TNE, you've got Townsperson under your moniker, and I didn't it notice previously. (I forget that some people don't play newbie games first) I suppose creepy might = newbie. Have you had experience at other sites?

unvote

I'd like a list of "some of the scummiest people in this game", along with more than a sentence on why they are, if you don't mind. If my name is on that list, by all means, I am just as interested in hearing that as well.

[Ectomancer]

Are you just trying to stir the pot jester? Or are you trying to get voted?

He looks fine to me. Why would you vote him?

[Ectomancer]

Perhaps it's time for each of us to present our top three scum list?

I really don't want to end this day with a no-lynch so, in my opinion, we need to reach an agreement. Nobody's been close to the 7 players needed (except for thenextepisode with five votes, and that built up quite quickly and disappeared the same way).

I don't believe you are all that interested in avoiding a no lynch, but it sure makes good propaganda doesnt it? Where have you been for a week if not on vacation?

We've got almost 3 weeks. Plenty of time to build a wagon naturally. I don't think I'll be going along with a top 3 list. Scum has enough information already without tossing everyone's top 3 for them to manipulate.

[Ectomancer]

Ryan was banned...

I'm still too hazy this morning to explain why, but I feel this undercuts Joker.

I have the flu right now and so am a bit sluggish, but I'm not following the logic behind this (and I have not tried to find out why Ryan was banned). Do you mean Jester, not Joker? And what would a ban of a player have to do with alignments of players in this game? Or did you mean something different by 'undercuts'? I'm assuming you mean it undercuts Jester's argument that Ryan

is

was scum.?

[Ectomancer]

I'm also suspicious of Earwig. He seems to have contributed very little actual content to the game, but has often seemed to follow the flow and has shifted his vote numerous times.

FOS: Earwig

I pre-emptively fos'd Earwig because he generally lurks and puts no convinction behind what he says. That was to alert everyone else that he plays like that all the time. That being said, his posts aren't what I normally see (though his activity is still low). I haven't played with him in awhile though, so I dont know if this is ScumWig, or his latest attempt at appearing "active".

[Ectomancer]

TNE shook me off my vote on RC. I still mistrust the whole thing.

TNE, you had experience on other forums? And a statement like yours would have been perfectly ok over there? Or do you think they would have an adverse reaction as well?

[Ectomancer]

they probably would have had an adverse reaction too, or not have known how to deal with it. it was a bad play all in all and im lucky i havent been lynched.
my finger is still pointed at RC and fat tony because he used to be blackberry.

Well, that sounded honest at least, whether because you figure you've got nothing to lose anyhow or not is worth a different look down the road.

vote Rosso Carne

(again)

[Ectomancer]

As 'honest' as you think it could sound ecto... it still sounds scummier than high hell.

Its a blatant statement that TNE is fingerpointing and not using logic for his cases.

But not scummy enough to back with a vote? Or is Johoohno that much more scummy?

[Ectomancer]

/prodded

Yay. Now pick somebody to vote for.....

[Ectomancer]

Ectomancer

. You've been a really solid player. In particular, I like your 156, 166, 181, 184, and 276. Has the courage of his convictions, which in my experience is a strong townie trait; scum have a hard time pulling it off. But those convictions (and his posting rate) have been dropping off as we approach a lynch, which is a mild scum-tell. Still, I'm pretty sure you're a townie.

As much as I dislike bringing outside life into my in-game statements, I've got an MRI and a Nerve Conduction Test scheduled for Thursday to find out why I began experiencing acute chronic pain over the last couple weeks (actually its been going on for months, but got seriously intense the last 2 weeks). Might be tied to 1 of 3 spinal injuries I've had over the years. To top it off, yesterday, on my way to the Dr's appt, my brake hose collapsed, causing the calipers to lock on my front left brake while I was on the Interstate. I pulled over to see what was wrong, and noticed flames licking out of the front wheel well. The fire went out, and Im getting my vehicle repaired, but I missed my appt yesterday, and had to go back today.
Long story short, the pain is driving me to distraction and I can't focus on things very well. It means that Im not as inclined to get into heavy arguments with people right now. Maybe if they give me some good drugs....

[Ectomancer]

Yay. Now pick somebody to vote for.....

Easy, Chewie. Let's let him catch up and make a REASONED accusation, rather than pushing him into doing what TNE does. I don't like this post, for that reason.

Catch up? You've gotta be fucking kidding me. He was prodded for being a useless lurker. He's been in this game since Day 1. There is no "catching up" for him to do. The only thing for him to do is participate or request a replacement.
"Let's let him catch up", give me a fucking break.

[Ectomancer]

We still have 5 days.

Rosso, why should I move my vote off you, and on to Johoono? Please do not use the "we need a lynch" and "no lynch is bad" excuses.

[Ectomancer]

Hmm, vote count is also wrong. I count 4 people on Rosso.

[Ectomancer]

The Battousai thing only SlySly and battousai should understand. I'm still unhappy about a game we were in with Battousai, and I had more than half a mind to quit this game when I saw Battousai replacing in. And lord knows that if I was a vig I would kill Battousai right now for the town's sake.

While I appreciate the sentiment, by your own words, do not convince yourself that you would do it for town. You apparently have a meta-problem with him and would be doing it for your own ends. That sucks for town, because now we have to take everything you say with that thought in the back of our mind("Is he really thinking Battousai is scum, or is this personal?")

Though I appreciate your candor, once again, that bias really sucks.

[Ectomancer]

The Battousai thing only SlySly and battousai should understand. I'm still unhappy about a game we were in with Battousai, and I had more than half a mind to quit this game when I saw Battousai replacing in.

And lord knows that if I was a vig I would kill Battousai right now for the town's sake

.

WtF, kill an unknown, take the chance of killing a pro-town power role, vanilla townie, or scum. It's like an additional lynch, but with only past game as evidence and with out me defending myself. I do find this stupid, and suspicious. Since I see no way you will be lynched today, I will feel comfortable giving you a

FOS: Tamuz

Ditto for you too. This is crap.

Also

fos

Tamuz and

fos

Battousai for distancing.

[Ectomancer]

Regardless of whether a Vig should kill nightly or not, your judgement is suspect.

Should we get rid of you because your bias makes it impossible to know whether you want to lynch scum, or it could just be a vendetta? That's a detrimentally bad townie to me.

Watch how you argue for someone else's lynch. You just might be arguing for your own.

[Ectomancer]

How bout you read and respond to 423 and your '''case'''.


Ecto. so your saying that now that my bias is open, I immediately become a worse player?

Your bias makes you a worse player, not the fact that it is in the open. What has changed is that the rest of us are aware of it now.

So, you see, your argument that Battousai should die as a detrimental townie also applies to you. Do you still believe in that argument?

[Ectomancer]

Yes, and I feel you are making a poor analogy, I'll explain later.

Poor analogy or not, you should try to play this game objectively. If you cannot, I really would prefer you replaced out.

[Ectomancer]

Ecto here is the problem with your reasoning. I'm saying I would vig B

for the good of the town

because he has shown me that he would be a detriment to the town if he survives to endgame. Note For the town. My actions would be motivated by my win condition. Town. Win. You then have the gall to insinuate that I would attack B for a vendetta. This is just plain wrong. I act in accordance to my win condition, for the town to win. Nothing I have said is against that. (and on top of that most of this is based on a conditional that I have stated will not come to be).

Dont lie to me. You said you have a meta problem with him, and that you would lynch him "for the good of the town". You indicate that would be regardless of alignment. We don't win by lynching town. You dont exactly inspire confidence by your continued pursuit of "permission" to lynch a townie. I dont care how he plays if he is town. He still counts towards a majority by being in game, and

THAT

should be your concern,

NOT

screwing us around trying to lynch a town member because "he would be detrimental in end game".

unvote

vote Tamuz

Dont try to blow smoke up my ass.

[Ectomancer]

Yes, reading my posts, it is absolutely clear that I have been searching for a reason to vote for you. Glory hallelujah, you gave me one.

/sarcasm off

You demonstrated your bias with your statement on vigging Battousai. Your lie is that you are doing it for town. You are doing it for yourself. Then you try to convince us that it is good for the town?
Scum. How do I know? I've done it. Can't recall the newbie game myself, but it is still there. Our Cop was playing poorly, so I managed to quicklynched him. Then I
convinced the town, that even if he really

was

the Cop, that I lynched him "for the good of the town", because "he would have just confused us". Stupid town fell for it, and I walked away with the win as Scum. Neither I, nor my scumbuddy was lynched.

FYI, a strawman is you pointing out that I used the word "lynch" instead of "vig" as you did. So what? Your intention is the same, and that is to get a player killed,

even if he is town

, due to your own personal bias.

Cry all you want about Johoohno and your "case" on him. My focus is on

you

and your statement. Johoohno's case has nothing to do with your bias on Battousai. It could be valid or not. It will be far easier to evaluate after you're dead and your alignment is no longer of question.

My vote stands.

[Ectomancer]

How does Johoohno have anything to do with your desire to kill Battousai? How does lynch vs vig make any difference in the fact that you want to kill Battousai, and it has nothing to do with evidence that he is scum?

I'm sure you wish I would shut up. Shit in one hand and wish in the other and see which fills up first. You made a bullshit statement. When called on it, you could have said, alright, I'll try to be objective. Instead, you forged on with your attack on Battousai and are trying to convince us that it is OK to kill town if they suck.

I don't think so scum. Typing in big red letters and yelling strawman wont help you (which you then adequately demonstrate with your lynch vs vig and whatever the fuck Johoohno is supposed to have to do with your Vig Battousai statement)

Apply myself to the game? I have, with a big fat vote on you Tamuz.

[Ectomancer]

I cant defend myself, I quit.

Fixt

[Ectomancer]

Your leaving is just admission that you can't be objective about Battousai. You cant defend that position. You quit. It's ok. Just remember that its a game. If it gets you angry, maybe you do need to step back from it.

[Ectomancer]

Persecution. Overstate much? Scumbuddy?

I explained why his action is scummy, and gave you an example of it. What exactly dont you get Ranger? You know how you find scum? By lynching people who do things scum do.

[Ectomancer]

Oh my dear Ranger, so full of opinion, but only after Tamuz decided to take his ball and go home. Where oh where were you prior? Where were these opinions? Afraid to get caught up in it yourself?
His statement is a scumtell to me. He demonstrated a meta-bias against a player with no evidence, period. He stated

himself

, that he had a bias against Battousai.

He then went on to state that it is OK to lynch a townie if they play badly.

You agree with that logic as well RangerofTheNorth? Bad logic? Bad scum. You dont lynch someone you know to be town, period. Dont give me this crap that

my

logic is bad. Tell me you want to lynch town if they play badly. You can have my vote too.

[Ectomancer]

He then went on to state that it is OK to lynch a townie if they play badly.

If he said that, please show me where. Looking over his posts, I can't find it.

Really? You missed all of this?

It would NOT be solely done for my own ends. I would either be getting rid of a hard to spot scum--on grounds of impossible to differentiate town play-- or a detrimentally bad townie.

Ecto here is the problem with your reasoning. I'm saying I would vig B for the good of the town because he has shown me that he would be a detriment to the town if he survives to endgame.

3. So we disagree on whats good for the town. I prefer to have quality plays who play like town when they are town, not scum when they are town. I prefer players who have a hope of winning the game. Buffalo theory, kill off the weak, make everyone stronger. I wrote more response, but then I felt dumb because it concerned lynching, and I haven't advocated a B lynch

What is all of this? This is Tamuz's excuse to jump on a bandwagon at any time. It's called reserving a seat. You can argue semantics over the use if vig vs lynch, but it is all the same thing, killing a townie on purpose. Arranging to be able to place a vote without a case.

You dont' see it as scummy? You dont win many mafia games do you?

[Ectomancer]

See the above SlySly. Same goes to you.

[Ectomancer]

BTW Earwig, your post is shit, I do note that you aren't doing anything real.

I don't really care what you note, Tamuz.

Also, I can't believe you let Ecto get under your skin. As he said - this is a GAME - nothing more. I've been in games with him before - This is how he plays.

Well I wasn't being a dick. It's a simple formula. See scumtell. Pressure. See more evidence of scumminess. Pressure. Repeat until lynched or town remains unconvinced or evidence surfaces to counter the arguments made.

Earwig? Scum hunt.....ever?

[Ectomancer]

You dont' see it as scummy? You dont win many mafia games do you?

I see your points and agree to a certain extent. If Tamuz had actually made a move on Battousai, I would agree 100%, but he didn't. Everything he said was theory for if he had been a different role.

I'm not sure, but I think my win/loss record is 2-1. I am eating my Wheaties and am hoping to grow into a great scum hunting exposer someday.

He did make a move SlySly. "Moves" are more than just votes. I questioned his stated motivations for making the move. Anytime I see a bogus "for the good of the town" comment, I am going to be all over it. If he is town, he shouldn't have tucked his tail and run. (If he's scum he shouldn't have done it either, but that's a different story)

Unfortunately, it doesn't look as though enough of you will be swayed enough to lynch him today, especially as he wont be here to defend himself now. It's going to be the suck for a replacement to have to pick up from that, but oh well. I cant ignore the previous player, and unlike Tamuz, this isn't a meta. Still, I wont go all frontal assault on them when they arrive. Like I said, I'm not a dick.

[Ectomancer]

Hmm. Here I was expecting to see some opportunistic attacks on me for my boldness on Tamuz. That's a surprising post from you Nyktorian, and not just because it happens to support my position. +1 town (for not taking an easy attack, or sitting back quiet about it)

unvote

You really think RC is scum, and not just playstyle? What about TheNextEpisodes creepy post in regards to RC?

[Ectomancer]

As I said, the game pointed out by Johoo does show that RC. Furthermore, he is much more experienced than TNE and therefore should probably know full well what he is doing right now - which increases the chance that his acting is not just desinterest, but calculated. And hiding your tactics from the town in this way cannot be good for the town. It could very well be his strategy to just do nothing significant. Then all cases against him can only be based on this one thing, and discussion about him are deadened by the fact that he just does not respond to accusations.

TNE has not made himself likable either, but seems not just as bad as RC: he is at least somewhat trying to help town (though he is just following other a lot, too), and he has his newbishness working for him here.

I can buy that argument.

Anyone else with anything to say?

[Ectomancer]

This game is lagging.

Update if anyone cared: I got my results back from my MRI, and though its not good news, at least I have a diagnosis. Ive got a degenerative spine condition called Cervical Spinal Stenosis. What it means is that the opening where my spinal cord passes through is getting smaller and putting pressure on the spinal cord. My understanding of it is they will treat it with drugs and painkillers as best we can until it gets to the point where I have to undergo surgery to have portions of my inner vertabrae removed to make space for the spinal cord. If the drugs are good enough, maybe I can hold off long enough to die of other causes before letting some whacko have at my spine with a knife. So, until I can see the neurologist and get some good drugs, I'll be my same crotchety self. Thank you.

[Ectomancer]

We are missing two people. I'm not lynching anybody with 18% of the town needing to be replaced unless we want to lynch Tamuz and spare both our mod and the replacement from dealing with a role that I think is scum and plan to lynch at some point anyhow.

[Ectomancer]

Earwig: I've not seen you completely frozen into inaction before, but then again, I've never seen you as scum. You're rather timid as town. Are you even

more

timid as scum?

/poke /poke

I think mozsuggs was hoping for a counterclaim.

[Ectomancer]

There is no bigger anti-town move than claiming scum, joke or not. The lynch of the day is now obviously Mozsuggs. His scum claim combined with the scumminess of his predecessors makes it painfully obvious.

At this point, I will be suspicious of anyone that doesn't support Moz's lynch.

Thanks, but I wont be SlySly'd onto a wagon cause he's going to be suspicious if I don't.

I see no reason to believe scum is more likely than town to make the statement Moz did. I'll need to go back and look at BlackBerry, but I recall Rosso and thenextepisode being higher on my list. There's also been substantial claims made against Johoohno.

I understand deadlines, but I also understand how long 5 days is. Right now, out of all the players, with a deadline looming, I'm ready to squeeze Earwig until he posts content or pops. This supreme lurker play is seemingly becoming popular because nobody ever truly wants to vote one off, and so they linger for multiple days easily.

I cant get behind that rationale.

unvote; vote Earwig

[Ectomancer]

I see no reason to believe scum is more likely than town to make the statement Moz did.

1. I didn't imply that Moz was scum. Your statement makes it sound as though I did. I did, however, accuse both of his predecessors of being scum and for good reason.

Brother, you downright stated that anyone who didn't support Moz's lynch would be suspicious. Are you seriously trying to tell me that isn't "implying" that he is scum? That is everything

but

stating outright that he is scum. If you are saying you dont think he is scum, why are you pressing for his lynch?

You didn't place your vote until after Moz made that statement about being the roleblocker. That implies it tipped the balance for that role in favor of scum for you. You have failed to demonstrate how scum might be more inclined to make that statement than town.

My observation of your previous post was spot on. If you think that you can threaten me into joining your bandwagon by tossing around your fos's, you are sadly mistaken. Try making better arguments rather than thinking you can herd the sheep into following you.

IGMEOY ScumScum

[Ectomancer]

Someone said Mostly Mountainous must imply an Sk. I think someone may have also mentioned a Jester possibility.

@mozsuggs - lets have a breakdown from you please. Your odd entrance and subsequent behavior is taunting the town.

[Ectomancer]

I'm rather irritated with this game right now.

I'll do a re-read before the weekend, but I'm not feeling especially motivated about it. Right now Im more motivated to finding balanced solutions to disruptive elements in the game.

[Ectomancer]

M'yep.

[Ectomancer]

That's why I don't like pairs, now that we know blackberry was town, rosso appears more townish.

Haven't gone back to look, but I wonder whether Rosso opposed, promoted, or ignored the possible tie to BlackBerry.

[Ectomancer]

vote:tne

Why? What is your reasoning?

For not providing reasoning, and general jask assery:

Vote: Rosso Carne

Alright Lurkerwig, you've sat around for 23 pages. Are you sure this is the move? Humor me by recounting the past case against Rosso Carne. Surely your latest reasons are meant to sit upon that foundation, so I'd be interested in

your

interpretation of that foundation.

[Ectomancer]

Alright, the replacements needed is getting ridiculous. All you have to do is pop in and say "Im not really following the game right now, post again later.", or whatever. We may decide to put you at L-1 and force you to read, but at least the mod isn't having to go to the replacement thread constantly.

I like Nyktorian's reasoning, and he has been consistent in it all game, so his vote sits well. I dont like Earwig's, but what can you do? He's probably going to be replaced in 96 hours anyhow.
Rosso is already being replaced, which is unfortunate for the timing. We've got 2 days until deadline, and he provided an avenue of investigation in addition to the other player with the most extensive case (and votes), Johoohno.

I hate to lynch on the idea that a deadline is approaching and the role would have to be replaced anyhow.
I hate the idea of lynching replacements. It's a meta thing that I cant help out of respect for the mod and the player replacing in. (Unless it is end game)
But I also dislike the idea of just going to the next guy in line just because the deadline is short and we need a lynch.

I looked at both cases. I also looked at Johoohno's case against Mizzy (Tamuz). I'd have to give Johoono the advantage there. But I got a twinge when he was speculating SK on day 1 for Mountainous. I didn't know why then (why not any other role?), but later it occurred to me that if scum were missing a buddy, they would have a pretty good idea that there is probably an SK out there. The problem with that idea now, of course, is that there was only 1 kill last night, so the evidence doesnt support that idea. Still, my suspicion is still present enough that I cant trust his motivations for his case on Mizzy.
Without a 2nd kill last night to back me up against Johoohno as scum aware of an SK, the case against him is weakened (though Jester made a good point about SlySly joining the vote against Johoohno. That would probably have been a 3rd vote on Johoohno right now)

I'm going to go back to my Rosso vote. I think this will make the 3rd time now. TheNextEpisode's creepy post still makes me want to join

Rosso

instead and vote for TNE, but I think that newbie is probably more accurate, as it appears he has lost interest in the game.

vote Rosso Carne

[Ectomancer]

Ecto:

Without a 2nd kill last night to back me up against Johoohno as scum aware of an SK, the case against him is weakened (though Jester made a good point about SlySly joining the vote against Johoohno. That would probably have been a 3rd vote on Johoohno right now)

It's basically WIFOM, if there was a sk they could have choosen not use their action to save Johoohno for a later lynch (we lynch second candidate today and then tonight there's two actions making suspicion go back on Johoohno).

Correct, but what is

not

WIFOM is that without the evidence of a 2nd kill, that avenue of suspicion does not add to the case against Johoohno. Without it (or something as convincing), Johoohno doesn't tip the scum scale as much as Rosso has.

[Ectomancer]

Without it (or something as convincing), Johoohno doesn't tip the scum scale as much as Rosso has.

I skimmed over Rosso again, seeing if I missed anything, but I don't really see much other than him being an asshat. What is the specific case against him other than acting like an ass? Because seriously, anti-town != scum.

Well, you would have to read me, and not Rosso to know what my case against Rosso is. A relevant quote would be:

@Rosso Carne - What's going on with you? After being accused of some fluff posts, you toss out an unexplained vote, and then when pressured, you can't explain the reason until after a re-read? And you will probably unvote him, erasing the first mafiascum move you have made? It makes it look like you voted him simply to make a contribution, but had no plan beyond the vote.

Additionally, Rosso was muddying the waters in a stupid argument with Ryan, where both were misunderstanding the other. Chaos and confusion are a hallmark of scum. Useless arguments are also a good way to try to avoid a lurker or fluff post label.
When that tactic didn't work, he simply disappeared.

I don't believe my case against him ever involved him being an asshat. I'd also like to know why, if you believe him to be anti-town, you would need to ask what the case against him was?

[Ectomancer]

@ Jester: will you get engaged or get replaced?

Get replaced?

Do you hope to fare better with a replacement?

unvote

vote Johoohno

[Ectomancer]

No, I'm hoping to get this game going and my post was a response to this negaitivity input:

Sorry for the language, but this is the least fun MS game I've participated in on this forum so far. I'd vote for it to be abandoned if I could.

And lo and behold, it just got someone started (Even though I'm no fan of the vote on me).

Ectomancer, you've voted for almost each and everyone in this game at one time or another.

I voted for 6 of you (including one random). I've had good reason for every one of them, including yours. My vote record has no relation to your alignment however, unless you are trying to point out that it is impossible for all 6 of you to be scum, meaning my radar isn't the best. My answer is that votes are for pressure as well as getting a lynch (though this seems to have little effect on Earwig).

[Ectomancer]

2 night kills. Johoohno's speculation on the SK appears to be apt.

[Ectomancer]

I'm somewhat lost at this point. Rosso Carne may well have killed by a vig, but why would the mafia have targeted Earwig who was also under a fair amount of suspicion, and who might have been todays lynch? This doesn't make very much sense to me.

Apparently even scum hate lurkers.

[Ectomancer]

True that.

Earwig was all over the place, and the guy he finally ended up voting for ended up dead.

[Ectomancer]

Perhaps it was a poor choice of words, but that doesn't deny his point. The fact that the scum haven't lynched Battousai yet doesn't in any way prove that he's scum.

But his theories also don't prove he's town. I think the point was just that it's safe to keep a vote there for the time being, though I'm mixed on my thoughts regarding that.

Does anyone else have any thoughts?

He didn't say it proved him town, he said it was holes in the theory that he was scum, and he is right (whether you call them other theories or not is semantics). I agree with RotN here.

[Ectomancer]

He didn't say it proved him town, he said it was holes in the theory that he was scum, and he is right (whether you call them other theories or not is semantics). I agree with RotN here.

I didn't say he did say that, so I'm not sure why you're jumping to someone's defense who doesn't need it.

You didnt say

he

said that

implicitly

, but you certainly implied that was the cut of his jib. Right here you did it. Read the part where you say "his theories also don't prove he is town".

Perhaps it was a poor choice of words, but that doesn't deny his point. The fact that the scum haven't lynched Battousai yet doesn't in any way prove that he's scum.

But his theories also don't prove he's town. I think the point was just that it's safe to keep a vote there for the time being, though I'm mixed on my thoughts regarding that.

Does anyone else have any thoughts?

What game are you playing to state something in that manner and then pretend it didn't mean what you said?

[Ectomancer]

What game are you playing to state something in that manner and then pretend it didn't mean what you said?

I was countering someone else's similar statement by basically saying it's a null-tell. It doesn't prove he's scum, no, but it doesn't prove he's town, either. The point I was trying to make was that it's something we should keep in mind, but not something we should lynch over. A topic for discussion, maybe.

Ok. Roughly RotN's point and my point as well. The bottom line is there isn't adequate support for either conclusion.

[Ectomancer]

Ok, I haven't had a chance to look into all the convolutions yet, perhaps others can lend their heads as well and lets follow these thoughts to come up with a way to benefit us:

We had 2 kills last night. I see 1 of 2 explanations; an SK or a Vig.

If it was a Vig, we are very likely in LYLO with 3 scum.

If it was an SK, we could be in LYLO today if we lynch town and town dies tonight. We would need to lynch scum tomorrow and hope the SK and scum cross-kill each other (which is as close to LYLO as you can get without actually being in it). If we lynch an SK today, then we are in LYLO tomorrow.

The problem with both of these scenarios is what if the killer lives and kills again tonight? We can't control what an SK will do (though we might hope to guide one to do the "right thing"), but we need to talk about whether a Vig should kill tonight or not. I think

who

they kill (if it is to our advantage) should be left up to them.
Also, claim? not claim? If we ask for a claim now, if there is an SK they would be forced to go whole hog one way or the other for their claim. Problem is, would that be benefit enough to expose a Vig?
If someone does claim, and they are SK claiming Vig, we don't lynch them (we don't have much choice) but we still don't know about them. If we get scum today, and our Vig/Sk claims today, we still cant kill the SK in case he

is

a Vig because we are still in LYLO tomorrow if there are 3 scum today

unless

the Vig kills also and gets lucky. If they did kill also, there would be 4 people left, and I think scum win if either Vig or Sk guess wrong.

Help me out here. There's a lot of permutations to go through.

[Ectomancer]

One thing to consider is that, if we ask the vig/SK to out himself now, the mafia are fairly likely to kill him tonight. That makes it fairly unlikely that the SK would chose to come forward.

Yes it does. It would also be nice to get a Vig to end game in case it comes down to 2 people somehow. At least then they would off each other in end game (or stalemate) and we would get at least a tie.

[Ectomancer]

Scum scared to join the discussion?

[Ectomancer]

I had a minor surgery today. Drugged up. Should be back tomorrow sometime.

[Ectomancer]

Still in pain and out of sorts. Might be sometime this weekend before I get back for more. Taking care of the game Im modding and that's it for now.

[Ectomancer]

No...
1 player with a split personality. And we still haven't got our role pm(s)

Perfect. Do a quick analysis of everyone before you get it.

[Ectomancer]

Actually, after a second read of Nyktorion's post...

FOS: Battousai, unvote, vote: Nyktorion

.

A SK does not hurt the town and the mafia equally. Just looking at basic probability, a SK has a 82% chance of hitting town on N1 and only an 18% chance of hitting mafia.

Actually, with 7 alive, 1 SK, and 2 scum, that would make a 66.6% and a 33.3% chance. Not quite as extreme as you say, unless you really believe in your 1 scum, 1 SK (which is to say, 2 SK's), and then it becomes an 80/20 proposition.
A Vig has a 66.6/33.3 chance of hitting town, unless we lynch town today (and there are only 2 scum), and then chances improve to 60/40. Still meaning the Vig should probably not kill tonight. If there is 1 SK and 2 scum, the SK

also

should not kill tonight.

We've got to get this right on lynches. I'm thinking if there is a 1 shot Vig, they may as well speak up. Their power is used, they are vanilla at this point, and at least it might clear up the air somewhat (if we can believe them). Would that make sense? I know, people could try all kinds of tricks, but they would have to fess up to a killing last night at least.

[Ectomancer]

Actually, after a second read of Nyktorion's post...

FOS: Battousai, unvote, vote: Nyktorion

.

A SK does not hurt the town and the mafia equally. Just looking at basic probability, a SK has a 82% chance of hitting town on N1 and only an 18% chance of hitting mafia.

Perhaps because it is the only thing going on right now, your vehemence that we have no SK is standing out. While SK's are often required to kill every night, I believe there are instances where they are not as well.
As for balance purposes, an SK would make a good addition to the scum hunt, and not overly unbalance the game against the town. For the first part of the game, an SK would basically need to behave like a Vig until scum is found and removed. That is why an SK is an equal threat to town and scum, and right now the bigger threat is to scum.

You might be town making that argument, more likely to be an SK making that argument, but I don't really see scum making that argument (they would need to find the SK and certainly wouldn't want to discourage the hunt)

So, for right now at least, I can feel reasonably safe that, today, we have the same goal. If I can nudge you from trying to convince us of the impossibility of an SK (pretend you are right if you want, I dont care) Who are your 2 best cases for being scum?

[Ectomancer]

Congrats to the winners, my apologies for my absence. Thanks for the kind words.