Mini Normal 2319: Flavorless Hell | Day 5

[Black]

i think umlaut and kyouko have the worst interactions with gob

...

we should trust dragon for as long as we can but i don't like how gob tried to save him with his backwards reasoning. reminds me somewhat of the last game he played where he tried to stop a gamma lim from happening

I would agree about Kyouko and Umlaut with regards to their interactions to gob.

In that second bit, are you referring to Large 245 where he was basically trolling Gamma all game, trying to lim her, then at the last second changed his mind when others started to try and join in?

I'm not 100% sure I agree about Drew. He definitely went hard on the gob wagon at the end and said he had intent to hammer, but I wonder if that couldn't have been performative. I'd say there's a good chance Dragon would have jailed Drew last night. They were goin at each other quite a bit before Dragon claimed.

open 891

i don't see the harm in talking about what we think while we wait

[Black]

Well there goes that

[Black]

I think scum is able to misfade Dragon regardless of which play they choose, and in the no-kill play they are able to take a few others down in the domino effect. It might actually be the better play

Regardless, I think the right play for town here is to fade the JK target and just work from there. Even if scum no-killed I think I would be more inclined to believe it was Umlaut over you. Neither of you had great interactions with gob imo but his seem far worse

[Black]

Thing I am pondering: if Dragon is scum, does he really claim JK and then continue to sit on his partner? Because after that, he either has to kill and confirm someone as town every day (if there's only one scum, which there probably is, a kill going through clears his target), or no-kill and then get called a liar when his "target" flips town. Oh, and not to mention deal with all the questions about why he's not dead on Day 5. The claim would seem to screw him over quite badly if he's maf. At the very least, it would be better for him to keep his buddy alive if he's going to claim that, which does not align with the way he actually played yesterday.

Yeah I think Dragon being scum is probably the least likely of the scenarios here

Most likely - Dragon blocked the kill, we fade the target and gg

Somewhat likely - Umlaut/Aliana or some other competent player no-killed to frame Dragon

Not very likely - Dragon lied and no-killed to frame someone

[Black]

Hopefully occam's razor is correct and Dragon has a smoking gun to point at. I feel like all the crazier scenario's are just so not likely.

Do you consider scum no-killing to frame Dragon a crazy scenario?

[Black]

If we lim someone that Dragon points at and it's town, the crazier scenarios get looked at tomorrow.

Agreed

[Black]

Is 3 scum even possible in a 10 player game?

[Black]

I think we no lim and let DE decide if he wants to JK Altaria again, JK someone else, or take no action. This way if DE is town here scum have to guess whether they should no kill or not, because if DE no acts and there is no kill it becomes likelier the first night was a frame-up using no kill.

If DE is scum that no killed to frame altaria this doesn't really change anything

VOTE: no elimination

if town!DE dies and flips JK we'll have to eliminate Altaria anyways, but this forces scum to use a nightkill to kill DE instead of making town use 2 lims to kill DE and Altaria

This feels like a strange take. I feel like I should be faded today

I would like a little bit of time to try and determine if Dragon is lying or if scum no-killed before I'm thrown off a cliff

[Black]

I guess I'll claim? Why not

I'm a Lazy Vig. I tried to kill Umlaut last night but it didn't work because there's only 2 scum this game

Don't ask me why there is a Vig in a 10 person game because it doesn't really make sense, but I'm guessing the Lazy modifier balances it out somewhat

[Black]

I'm down to no elim if that's what everyone agrees on but I'd rather not do it so quickly

[Black]

My gut tells me Dragon is probably telling the truth but it feels strange that he JK'd me when I was such a high townread of his. Unless he thought I would be the NK target I guess

More than likely scum is within {Umlaut, kyouko, Aliana} and they no-killed to set this up

[Black]

I still think the correct play is to fade me here but give me time, let me talk some things out so you all are better set up to solve this when I'm gone

[Black]

UNVOTE:

Do you agree with Hu Tao, and why?

[Black]

Hmm. Ok

I'm curious to hear what Dragon's reasons for targeting me are

[Black]

If Dragon stopped the NK then I think Umlaut or kyouko could have wanted me dead. I don't really see Aliana trying to kill me

I still think it's more likely that scum no-killed to initiate this chaos but idk

[Black]

It just doesn't make a lot of sense for scum to target me over Dragon

[Black]

I still think the correct play is to fade me here but give me time, let me talk some things out so you all are better set up to solve this when I'm gone

Are you still able to vig?

Nope. I'm Lazy so both scum need to be alive for me to be able to shoot

[Black]

I guess I'll claim? Why not

I'm a Lazy Vig. I tried to kill Umlaut last night but it didn't work because there's only 2 scum this game

Don't ask me why there is a Vig in a 10 person game because it doesn't really make sense, but I'm guessing the Lazy modifier balances it out somewhat

Vig makes sense to get us onto odds starting from 10 players. I had a 1-shot vig in the 10p I ran.

Luckily we're on odds now anyway so I don't see any reason to no-elim. Let's just follow the jailer.

VOTE: Altaria

Fade this after me please

[Black]

any crumbs?

VOTE: gob

i would also be ok with umlaut here

I mean I'm also okay with either

Dragon says this but doesn't join the gob wagon

I'm starting to think it's just Dragon here

gob's whole "yeah Dragon is scum but we should let him live" thing is just so wild to me. I'm also not buying the excuse that Dragon just forgot about this game but I could be wrong there

I'm pretty convinced scum is within {Dragon, Umlaut} so I would be willing to vote either today

[Black]

Like Dragon is posting elsewhere on the site but he just forgot about a game in which he's a PR and scum was faded D1? Doesn't seem very likely to me

[Black]

I like the idea of going Umlaut and then forcing Dragon to target me I guess. If Dragon is scum then he has to no-kill until eternity, and if someone else is scum then they'll have to hit Dragon or no-kill to keep framing me

[Black]

This isn't necesarrily out of pocket for gob though. In Large 245, gob was scum. He spent a lot of time shading Gamma Emerald, tried to run a wagon on her. Then when she got closed to being limmed he 180ed on it resulting in a favorite moment of mine.

Hmm, ok. So he does this against town too. My only experience with this type of gob was in the last game we played together. Gamma was his scumbuddy and he tried to stop that wagon from going through

Thanks for the insight. Makes it feel a little less likely that it's Dragon here

[Black]

I do think if it's not Umlaut and we're back here tomorrow with no kill, we can't let Dragon get to ELO.

I agree. I probably shouldn't be allowed to get to ELO either. All 3 of us need to be flipped before then

[Black]

Extremely Likely - Dragon doesn't post and lets rampant conspiracy theories get woven.

Hopefully occam's razor is correct and Dragon has a smoking gun to point at. I feel like all the crazier scenario's are just so not likely.

I guess I just haven't seen it, I feel like the prevailing philosophy is maximize what you can do. Obviously holstering a N-Shot makes sense, but a factional NK should just be used every night. I think the longest shot here is that scum holstered. It's far more likely there was a role block or protection that happened. I think getting lost in the sauce on this day over the wilder scenario's might just muddy the waters. If we lim someone that Dragon points at and it's town, the crazier scenarios get looked at tomorrow.

Your shift from these posts is a little alarming but I'm not sure how scum!you would benefit from pushing Umlaut here instead of just going for me

[Black]

Ooo, I’m excited to play in a game with Aliana. Only had games modded by her at this point.

I don’t think I see the same gob here and was in Large 245 where he was scum. I’m calling him null at best still though.

I'm not sure I can articulate a tell, but I do generally feel like gob's vibe is very different here than in other games I've seen him. I'm town reading him solely based on that right now.

UNVOTE:

I'm also okay with a gob wagon. He's also in my shortlist after my re-read and I'm inclined to give a PR claim a chance.

VOTE: gob

This is an interesting progression. Can you elaborate what you saw during your re-read that made you feel like he could be scum here?

[Black]

I want to believe you're town Celebloki but I think we need to make sure all of our bases are covered. I don't really want to fade you over Umlaut but I can't help but feel like you could be a deep wolf here

[Black]

I get why I'm suspect but why am I more suspect than the other person who was on the same counterwagon I was and also got jailkept?

Because I'm town bro

Do you want to claim?

[Black]

VOTE: Umlaut

e-1

[Black]

I'll be honest, the start of this game I was very absent and most of my reading was quick skimming. After the holiday and when my guests left was when I first really read the game through and I posted my 406. From skimming before this I recall I didn't really read gob being very inflammatory. My only exposure to gob was in 245 and he was quite the trip in that game. We had mostly confirmed PRs who had cleared others and gob was trying to push wagons on them and saying a lot of out of pocket stuff all game. He made it seem like he had paid no attention to what was happening and was just trying to push people. He was so wild that most people were giving him a pass and kind of putting him into a VI slot it seemed like. When the game ended, he was revealed to be scum, and I went back and read the Scum PT, I gained a much different view of gob. He was basically doing all that on purpose to knock the town off balance. When I went back and re-read this game, saw his response to Drew's open wolfing comments, the way he waffled back and forth on DE and his general flippancy, I changed my mind on him. My 'town tell' comment to Kyouko was just me at the time not feeling his 245 vibe from my skimming. When I actually read the game, he came off scummy. I can't wait to actually play a town game with him to see if he's any different.

This seems believable

[Black]

any crumbs?

VOTE: gob

i would also be ok with umlaut here

I mean I'm also okay with either

Dragon says this but doesn't join the gob wagon

I'm starting to think it's just Dragon here

gob's whole "yeah Dragon is scum but we should let him live" thing is just so wild to me. I'm also not buying the excuse that Dragon just forgot about this game but I could be wrong there

I'm pretty convinced scum is within {Dragon, Umlaut} so I would be willing to vote either today

Dragon was already on the gob wagon.
Dragon's associatives with gob yesterday don't fit with his choice of claim if he's scum. I think Dragon is competent enough at scum to think about the possible consequences of his claim and realize that claiming JK could make things harder for him as solo scum.

Like Dragon is posting elsewhere on the site but he just forgot about a game in which he's a PR and scum was faded D1? Doesn't seem very likely to me

Please quote where this happened. He explicitly said in 640 that he

didn't

forget about the game.

You're right on both fronts. I overlooked both things. My b

[Black]

For some reason I had it in my head that he said he forgot about the game but it was the opposite

I still think it's weird he didn't want to play in a situation where he faded scum D1 and potentially caught another, but I'm willing to chalk it up to something outside of the game influencing that feeling

[Black]

I think you forgot something else too but I also think you might have done it intentionally so I won't mention it lol.

I don't think I did. Can you give me a hint

For some reason I had it in my head that he said he forgot about the game but it was the opposite

I still think it's weird he didn't want to play in a situation where he faded scum D1 and potentially caught another, but I'm willing to chalk it up to something outside of the game influencing that feeling

Idk, I interpreted 640 as an out-of-game thing.

I think you're probably right

[Black]

Whoops XD

I wish I was cool enough to reaction test but nah my memory just stinks

[Black]

Where is your head at rn Aliana? I think it makes sense to fade me but obviously I want Umlaut instead

[Black]

I'm okay with mass claiming. That way we lock how many pr there are. 2 already claimed. Also can check for balance

3. Kyouko is a PR

Personally I don't think massclaiming is a good idea. Keep the scum guessing

I've been wrong about this before though

[Black]

Just had an idea, with Mafia not being multitasking maybe they are a JOAT that investigated or something last Night

True but why wouldn't they just kill them instead?

[Black]

If Dragon is town it would be an opportunity to use the investigation while at the same time framing the JK target.

Yeah true

[Black]

Maybe like a roleblocker/doctor/jailkeeper, somekind of interference role + rolecop + strongman

Mafia RB makes a ton of sense with a Vig in such a small game

Kinda makes Aliana look a bit suspicious for asking if the RB should claim? I could be overthinking that but it felt like a crumb

@Drew - how do you feel about yeeting Umlaut into the stratosphere today?

And I'm really not liking how quickly Aliana is trying to end the day here. Not sure if I've seen this from her before

UNVOTE: for now

Still probably want to go here but I'm second guessing

@Drew - how do you feel about yeeting Umlaut into the stratosphere today?

Kinda wanna let things play out a bit more

Drew locktown

I also feel pretty strongly about kyouko town for now but not willing to lock that in quite yet

[Black]

i ain't gonna do that day 2

Was your D1 hammer intentional? I just assumed you didn't notice that he was at e-1

[Black]

You can't remember if you thought you were hammering or not?

[Black]

@mod: I'll be v/la until Monday

[Black]

I'm okay with mass claiming. That way we lock how many pr there are. 2 already claimed. Also can check for balance

3. Kyouko is a PR

Personally I don't think massclaiming is a good idea. Keep the scum guessing

I've been wrong about this before though

What is there to guess? They know the pr they kill there. That's why it's better to mass claim to lock in roles and vote either in VT or prs

Scum doesn't know how many PRs there are, what they are, and who has them

But the last time I argued against this I was sort of blamed for the loss, so let's do it

[Black]

This is a prodge because I've been really busy today.
Though, @Black - I don't understand what you're getting at with the RB thing. Could you elaborate?

It just felt like you were crumbling in a coy way

[Black]

Actually not in their next post

blegh I need to sleep, my brain is playing tricks on me

In case you did forget about this game, have a notification.

Hi, I did not forget about the game but I do NOT have the brain to play mafia today. Sorry

I jailkept Altaria

I will post more either tomorrow or on Saturday, sorry.

Come play boo

[Black]

I want Dragon's input on all of this anyway. We've got time. No one should be hammering this

@Hu do you think kyouko is scummy for not claiming? It seems like she has her reasons

Pedit: Aliana claimed VT and I'm pretty sure umlaut crumbed it as well, let me find the post

[Black]

Yeah Umlaut said he "slipped" in 708 referring to him saying he can't see there being more than 2 PRs in 707 so I'm assuming he's VT

[Black]

Meh I am bored.

VOTE: Umlaut

E-1

Claim

[Black]

I'll unvote for now.

UNVOTE:

I don't think Kyouko should claim today. I believe her when she says it would be anti-town.

That's how I'm feeling

[Black]

I don't want to vote anyone out until Dragon decides to play the game again or replaces out

[Black]

*backs away from balance speculation*

[Black]

I will say kyouko made a great point about Mafia maybe using an investigative role instead of the NK. No multitasking so they couldn't do both and it would set up this whole fiasco of speculating about the no kill

[Black]

I don't understand why killing would not be better though. They essentially gave us another vote out day since it's 9 now.

That was my thought too but by no killing the wolf can take down like 4 extra townies this way. I went over it in 608 and 610. What are your thoughts about my theory?

[Black]

No rush! Just wanting to hear your input before we fade someone

[Black]

No rush! Just wanting to hear your input before we fade someone

I'll be honest, I am not sure who we fading right now

You are Altaria slot, right?

Yes. Did you target me because you townread me or did you think I was scum?

[Black]

Now I just need to figure out who's mafia

Thoughts on Aliana?

[Black]

I feel like scum is holstering on purpose at this point

[Black]

I'm having an issue where I feel really paranoid and unsure about this

I don't really think it's Celebloki or Hu Tao

I initially didn't think it could be Drew but now I'm getting gut feelings about things in his ISO. It feels like he's laying low and sowing doubt where he can

Also remember, Dragon could have jailed the NK target as well.

This feels like he could have been paranoid about being Dragon's target. It could also just be town!Drew pointing out possible scenarios, so idk

Anywho to keep things game related.

I really think it is Umlaut as scum.

Definitely could be a deep wolf here though.

I don't really think that Alt would hard defend Gob like that as a buddy, and then just give up. But I still can't shake the feeling that she is.

This Umlaut read and the conviction behind it seems to come out of nowhere. And no explanation feels even worse. It just makes me think Drew was trying to push the misfade along

It just doesn't make a lot of sense for scum to target me over Dragon

Pardon me for not fully believing you would be the NK target, even if Dragon is actually the JK.

My gut is telling me we YOLO this and kick Black outta here.

This gut feeling about me doesn't match the read in his previous post where he said he really didn't think I would hard defend gob. And if his gut was telling him this then I'm not sure why he wouldn't have voted for me? It felt like he was throwing this out to see if anyone would support it

Like Dragon is posting elsewhere on the site but he just forgot about a game in which he's a PR and scum was faded D1? Doesn't seem very likely to me

It might be just as simple as he is scum and is basically giving up.

Then Drew casts some shade on Dragon here after I expressed doubts about him

My issue is that I can see some of these thoughts coming from a town!Drew perspective. But it just doesn't feel like he's doing much other than pushing certain ideas along. He's not really thinking critically about these things, which makes me think he's just happy with anything we do that doesn't involve fading him

I know kyouko and Alianna said they really don't think it's Drew. I'm wondering if I'm just missing something here and I should be looking elsewhere

[Black]

I think Aliana arguing to clear Dragon feels good and I was more paranoid about it being her D2 than I am today

I don't really think it's geraintm but he's not really doing much of anything

Kyouko claimed the PR and tried to clear me in a situation where she could have just claimed VT and pushed me if she were scum, so I don't think it's her either

It just feels like Drew makes sense. Someone tell me if I'm wrong to think this

[Black]

Gob, how seriously did you really take Drew's openwolfing? Are you actually that level-0 of a thinker or do you think he's cheeky scum playing games?

Tbf, both can be true.

I think Gob can be a player to react first thinking they caught someone without giving it some real thought first.

But, the lack of follow up and how certain they were that I.....slipped or something? Does seem like a noobScum play maybe?

I added question marks since I find it hard to believe that scum* would vote me like that, but I need to hear more from Gob to say they are town.


*also that would mean Gob is bussing, also a terrible play, I am the one who

knocks

busses.

This read feels on the fence and problematic

[Black]

Briefly skimmed gob's ISO in DEFCON and it does seem better, though I don't have the context of actually looking at the interactions.

Briefly skimmed gob's ISO in DEFCON and it does seem better, though I don't have the context of actually looking at the interactions.

Defcon probably isn't the best meta source haha

Okay fiiiiiiiiiiiine, you can be scum.

VOTE: Doctor Drew

@Altaria - I see what you mean there. I've been looking through gob's completed games for a towngame but it's taken me quite a while to find one.

Man does everyone just blindly follow meta on this site?

What is a better town strategy? Looking up a players meta to understand how they play as certain alingments?

Or....

Voting players who shit post?

I will leave that on the table for discussion amongst the class

I like this post and I 110% agree with it, but somehow it makes me a little uneasy. There is no logical reason why.

Must be shading your buddy!

P-edit: Oh, why so?

Defcon was basically a meme game.

I nuked my buddy because I let Firebringer control my nuke, and almost rode that to a scum victory(Now that is some open wolfing lol)

It is so hard to get a solid read on anyone that game......was so fucking fun to play though.

This could be a legitimate thought but I don't feel good about Drew combating Alianna's meta read on gob here

[Black]

Well now you're making me question my Drew read all over again. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
*bangs head against desk*

I'm sorry. I was kinda hoping you could talk me out of this since you know him way better. But if you're struggling too then that makes me feel worse about it

[Black]

these are some of the posts that stood out to me. it's not the strongest read but for page 8 it feels good enough. i also just want gob to do something instead of "taking it easy" and not taking things seriously so hopefully this helps

why is titus scum

why not?

I don't think it's Roden.

Feel like its not Gamma here.

Feel like its not Gamma here.

Why

Why not

I was just throwing it out there lol

I was just throwing it out there lol

So there's no reason why you feel like it can't be her? You're just saying it to say it? What's the point?

I like saying out of pocket shit to see what people say

Okay I just looked at gob's ISO in DEFCON 6 and yeah this isn't town!gob

VOTE: gob

VOTE: Dragon

Lol, literally just said defcon is not a good game for a meta read on anyone.

This feels so bad

[Black]

Actually I'll answer my own question, the case in 304 isn't bad. Well, some of it is bad but at least I like the point about 36.

VOTE: Drew

Being a co-founder of the Whiskey Pocket, I didn't think you would betray me like this.

It is so funny how I have been the the lynchpin of this game, really fueling my ego though.

And is funny to see how it got to this from my perspective, though I feel like leaning into me open wolfing is becoming detrimental to town so I am trying to dial it back a bit.

Like I said though, is giving some interesting reads here on how people are making some very impressive olympic level mental gymnastics to call me scum lol.

This feels defensive in a really casual way, like Drew is concerned about seeming too defensive

[Black]

I'm at the point in Drew's ISO where he argues with me over moving off of gob. This is what originally made me want to clear him once gob flipped. I'm trying to think of why he would do this as his scum partner, and the only thing I can come up with is that he figured the bus would clear him for the rest of the game. His conviction in scum!gob during this argument doesn't really feel natural. If Drew knew gob was scum here then he could have legitimately thought that he could make me seem scummy by jumping off of scum and onto Hu Tao

I'm a little worried that some of this is conf bias but I can see it

[Black]

I'm also going to try to re-read more tomorrow morning to make sure I'm not just tunneling here, but Drew just makes the most sense to me

[Black]

I'm also going to try to re-read more tomorrow morning to make sure I'm not just tunneling here, but Drew just makes the most sense to me

Sorry if you've already answered this question somewhere, but why is it not Cele?

I'm a little paranoid about Cele (tbf I'm a little paranoid about everyone) but I would say I'm less paranoid about him than others. I think he's engaged and trying to solve this thing. I would be fine letting someone like him making it a little further over someone like Drew who just seems to be coasting

[Black]

I do tend to agree that it's likely not Dragon, on my POE list Dragon is the one in it that's least likely for me. I think my top 2 are Hu and Drew. I kind of had a similar thought as Black to Drew's 578 which is why I rebutted it at the time. The vibe I got was that maybe he thought he was the JK target and that he was caught. This is why I said later I was surprised Dragon said his target was Altaria. I was just waiting for Dragon to come in and say he had targeted Drew that night. Since our plan was to yeet that person I was ready to go.

It's obviously completely possible Drew targeted Altaria for the NK and was saved by Dragon.

Why do you think it could be Hu Tao here?

[Black]

Alianna, this is gonna sound funny but one of my hesitations with you is that you seem willing to trust me here. After Backup6 I'm pretty surprised that you don't seem to be that concerned about me being scum. Or maybe you are and aren't showing it? I'm interested in your read on me

[Black]

pushing certain ideas along

I don't feel like responding to everything Black posted about me since it can basically be summed up by the quote I posted by Black.

I'm thinking critically about the game and as a result these ideas are being formed in my head. I don't see the same from you. You're just coasting off of everyone else's ideas

[Black]

How? Did you play in that game?

I challenge you to find a good meta read from that game.

It feels like a bad reason to vote for Dragon and a chainsaw defense of gob. The whole "I literally just said DEFCON isn't a good game to meta read anyone" felt like you were annoyed that he didn't listen to you and that he should have taken your word for it instead of forming his own opinion

[Black]

@Black - the main reason I townread Drew was because of his interactions with you around EoD1. His treatment of your slot felt very...un-opportunistic, if you will.
I don't think the change in reads after learning you were jailed is scum-indicative. Sure, it's not consistent with thinking you weren't a likely gob partner, but between those posts there was a very important piece of mechanical info revealed, and it is consistent with his more recent previous posts stating that he didn't think scum would "get cute" and that you weren't a likely kill target. I know I've 180'd on reads like that as town after similar mech info was revealed.

Yeah that interaction is probably the main thing keeping me from full on scumreading Drew here. I think he became pretty appeasing in that argument though and I see that from scum a lot. The post to you where he said that he's not calling me scum (473) and then asking us to take a step back (495). I feel like town!Drew would lean more into the scumread of me instead of the on-the-fence thing he was doing there. But then again he could have also done this because he could tell I was getting frustrated, so it's just not a solid read. None of it is, but my gut is still telling me it's just Drew

[Black]

Drew if you are town here can you give us your thoughts on all of the players and who you think is the last scum?

[Black]

Unfortunately it's not the only read that matters because I'm town. So if you're town too then you need to consider this as a possibility in case I'm flipped today, otherwise it'll be pretty obvious that you don't have the town's best interest in mind and you're not trying to solve the game

In a world where you know I'm town, what do your other reads look like?

[Black]

I absolutely did. I thought gob was a mislim and I was trying to avoid that. Me being wrong about gob doesn't change my intentions

If you're really just gonna avoid giving reads on everyone else then I'm fine with just fading you here. We will wait for Dragon but I'm pretty sure you only want to do that because you're the one no-killing and trying to frame people

[Black]

In a world where you know I'm town, what do your other reads look like?

[Black]

If you are actually town here then you're throwing by not cooperating with me and answering this

[Black]

Drew is town.

We wait for dragon still

Why is Drew town?

[Black]

I just realized something

Would it make sense for there to be 3 scum if town has 3 PRs? I initially thought my Vig didn't work because I'm Lazy, but if Dragon is telling the truth then I was jailkept. I didn't even bother sending in a hit N2 because I didn't think it would work but I didn't think about the fact that Dragon could have prevented my Vig shot from going out. I kinda feel like an idiot for not trying now

Is 3 scum an actual possibility in this setup?

[Black]

Ok, that makes sense

[Black]

Hmm. Hu Tao did bus their scum buddy in Mini Normal 1094 that just ended, so it's possible

[Black]

It was on D1 too

[Black]

I guess it could be Hu Tao here but I'm not as confident about that as I am Drew

I think I'd like to flip Drew --> big gap --> Alianna --> maybe Hu? In that order

[Black]

*Dragon waiting room*

[Black]

I think there is 0% chance drew is scum here. And will fight for him not to be voted out BTW.

Why do you keep saying reads and not explaining them. It's pretty annoying ngl

[Black]

I asked you yesterday why you townread Drew and you just ignored it and here you are again

[Black]

I'm willing to admit I could be wrong about Drew but if you feel this strongly about him then I don't understand not explaining your read

[Black]

Yeah I'm considering that. I still think it's possible Drew jumped on me because he knew I would look scummy for it after gob eventually flipped. And here he is today trying to push me for it after pretty much ignoring it yesterday due to there not being an appetite for my wagon. It's a little sus

[Black]

Why do you think town!Drew would avoid voting for me or even Umlaut there?

[Black]

I really don't think it's Dragon anymore and it's not me. So if you're town I'll tell you the same thing I told Drew. Start solving outside of me!scum or you're actively throwing the game

[Black]

I think I want Drew --> slightly smaller gap than before --> Hu Tao at this point. Refusing to solve outside of a tunnel just feels really anti-town at this point

[Black]

You can laugh but you're going to feel bad after fading town me and town!Dragon. At least you will actually have to try then I guess

[Black]

I think I want Drew --> slightly smaller gap than before --> Hu Tao at this point. Refusing to solve outside of a tunnel just feels really anti-town at this point

So saying you are scum is scummy?

Not putting critical thought into the game is scummy. Not cooperating and considering other options is scummy. Tunneling is usually town indicative but it's still anti-town. You and Hu Tao are both displaying these behaviors

[Black]

I've given my read. I led on scum day 1. I'm trying to play the game optimally so I don't know what else you want from me.

I want you to try harder but I guess I can't expect everyone to play like me

I mean I asked you why town!Drew would avoid voting me or Umlaut after we hopped off of gob and your answer was "not sure". I want you to think critically about this and help me solve this if you're town, but like I said I can't really expect that from someone unwilling to do so. It's just frustrating

[Black]

I wanted Gob as the lim, and wasn't going to push another wagon on someone else when I felt pretty good about Gob flipping scum, I mean I did declare intent. I mean I guess if I was trying to save a buddy I would start voting someone else at that point.......

Why didn't you vote for gob once we unvoted?

[Black]

Drew, it feels like you're in a cooperative mood. It's ok if you think I'm scum. I just want to know what your worldview would be when I flip town

[Black]

If we flip you, and I am wrong, then I will go from there.

That is a bridge I don't think I will have to cross, but will cross it if it happens.

[Black]

All I'm asking is for you to show me that you're town and you're too stubborn to even do that

I'm tunneling this for the rest of the day and idgaf

[Black]

VOTE: Drew

We wait for Dragon but nothing Dragon could say is going to convince me it's not just Drew here

[Black]

Yes. Did you target me because you townread me or did you think I was scum?

Townread

Still townreading you

Pinging you. Please come play

[Black]

Why is the burden on me to 'show my towniness' to you?

I was willing to reconsider on you if you showed any indication that you're trying to solve the game. Now I think it's pretty clear you're refusing to give reads on other players so you don't have to backtrack on them later when you need to

[Black]

Hmm. Hu Tao did bus their scum buddy in Mini Normal 1094 that just ended, so it's possible

I would bus, but not bring my partners name out of no where and say quick wagon it. Either way. We wait for dragon.

Yeah this is just false too. Hu is acting like fading gob was her idea

[Black]

I think one of the biggest indicators of scum!Drew is that he didn't try to push me D2


He put his feelers out in 664 but there was a consensus that I was probably town so he didn't feel comfortable going against the grain and pushing me

Instead he went with the flow of the thread and was perfectly fine misfading Umlaut

And now, D3, he didn't start pushing me until I said it was probably him. I'm suddenly a threat to him so he feels comfortable pushing there

And then there's this:

Again, all pending what Dragons says about his night action...... hopefully happens sooner than later lol.

Drew is acting like what Dragon says will have any influence over his decision on who to fade here. But we know that's not true because Dragon JK'ed me N1 and that didn't seem to be enough for Drew to push me

Drew is just scum here

[Black]

And now Drew is trying to justify why he's not giving reads on other players in a way that seems pretty clear that he just thought of it

We're fading this today

[Black]

Before it was "if I'm wrong I'll go from there" and "I feel like I already have the game solved"

Now it's "I'm holding onto my reads because you're a good scum player"

These aren't real reasons. Drew is trying to justify not giving reads in any way he can. He doesn't want to back himself into a corner because he knows he has to get rid of all of us in order to win

I am prepared to vote you pending who Dragons says they JK'ed

We will wait for Dragons then, whenever they decide to show up lol.

Again, all pending what Dragons says about his night action...... hopefully happens sooner than later lol.

This is Drew keeping his options open even further in case the thread doesn't want to fade me. We know Drew doesn't really care about who Dragon targeted or else he would have pushed me D2 when I was jailkept

[Black]

Notice in 915 that none of these scumreads have depth behind them. Scum have a much harder time coming up with genuine scum reads and they end up looking like the reads in this post. 230 is interesting because he says he's voting Dragon for throwing out reads with no substance behind them, but Drew has been doing that all game. So if he were town here then he would assume other townies could and would do this. The real reason Drew voted Dragon was in 221 when Dragon didn't blindly go along with Drew's defense of gob. It was a chainsaw defense

Everything before 587 was D1 stuff and my theory specifically involves Drew keeping his mouth closed D2 onward in order to keep the PoE open and go with the flow of the thread. D2 is when the solving is basically non-existent from Drew

Starting with 587, Drew is really non-committal here. He's keeping his options open. "I really think it's Umlaut" ... "It could definitely be a deepwolf though" ... "I don't think it's Altaria but it could be"

651 and 664 are examples of what I mentioned earler. Drew is putting his feelers out for a Black fade, but the thread isn't really having it so he doesn't push there. Again, this is one of my main points against Drew. He keeps invoking Dragon but if he truly cared what Dragon did overnight then he would have pushed me without a second thought on D2. Instead he went the easier route, the path of less resistance, and pushed Umlaut

679 is meant to cast doubt on Dragon's claim, and it's a stark contrast to his next read in 810 where he implies Dragon is town

In 919 Drew asks "why would I give my townreads to someone I feel confident is scum?" which is a weird thought. Drew has to prove to everyone that he's town here, not just me. He's using me as a reason to not publicize his reads

[Black]

Hu Tao isn't doing anything either but I think she's just a lazy town player. This behavior is pretty much in line with the town games I've read of hers

There's an agenda behind what Drew is doing and I'm not seeing that from Hu Tao

[Black]

There's a chance it's just Alianna/geraintm/Cele and they are just sitting back watching me and Drew go at each other, but I don't think it's super likely and we can cross that bridge after Drew and I flip

[Black]

Hu Tao isn't doing anything either but I think she's just a lazy town player. This behavior is pretty much in line with the town games I've read of hers

There's an agenda behind what Drew is doing and I'm not seeing that from Hu Tao

Yeah, yeah. You can keep calling me names. Its fine.

Part of me is hoping to light a fire under you but I don't think it's gonna work

[Black]

No

I'm saying it could be one of them

[Black]

[Black]

I'M TOWN DANNFLOR

Help me solve this thing

[Black]

I will be here to answer any questions you may have

Right now we're kinda waiting for Dragon to show up because he's the claimed Jailkeeper and there were no kills N1 or N2

My theory is that scum are no-killing to frame people because Dragon jailed me N1

[Black]

DragonEater70 - JK

Umlaut - VT

Celebloki - VT
geraintm - VT
ssbm_Kyouko - Unclaimed PR that makes her think my role is real
Doctor Drew - VT
Black - Lazy Vig
Hu Tao - VT
Aliana - VT

[Black]

She's been pretty absent but yeah she said she didn't want to give scum more info or something, let me find it

[Black]

My role is harder to play around for scum if it is not disclosed to them and claiming it for town isn't going to provide anything useful at this time

I'm not going to get more specific about my claim toDay unless I think it counters someone else's claim. I also think if Dragon has modifiers he should not claim them in this massclaim.

I stand by everything I've said so far about my role though

I think she should probably full claim now though tbh

[Black]

I had my doubts about Dragon early because gob was defending him in a very weird way D1, saying that he's obvscum but we should probably keep scum alive (???)

I'm willing to assume Dragon is just town here though

[Black]

Also I'm Altaria. I replaced myself because I alt slipped

[Black]

My role is harder to play around for scum if it is not disclosed to them and claiming it for town isn't going to provide anything useful at this time

Pinging this again

Come claim please

[Black]

I was fairly confident in scum!Drew starting the Day but I could have been knee deep in confirmation bias. I still kinda want Drew today tbh

My Hu scumread is really just PoE and a little frustration that she's not doing anything or willing to look outside of Dragon/me. Probably not a great read and I'm willing to admit I'm wrong here

[Black]

I haven't really thought it was Cele but he has been rather appease-y and lurky so I could see it

[Black]

I haven't really thought it was Cele but he has been rather appease-y and lurky so I could see it

I do slightly want to apologize to you, I still think you are likely scum lol, but I was in a mood yesterday and probably came off a bit too much like a stubborn dick.

I think you are correct, scum or town, I do need to be a bit more open with my reads. And ironically enough I have felt the same way about Cele as of late. Like as we were arguing and your read of me started to become and scum read, it did feel a little like he was trying to stoke the flame.

I promise this is not a pocket attempt haha.

Also if we have to lose Aliana, I could not think of a better person than Dann to replace her.......look at this, Drew spreading the holiday cheer all around!

I wasn't exactly the nicest person either but I don't think either of us crossed a line, so we're all good in my book

My frustration was legitimate though. I don't like to be wrong and I think you talking about your reads is like the only thing that will help me sort you. I know you probably don't believe this since you think I'm scum but it's the truth

[Black]

are we also waiting for Dragon to claim who he targeted N2?

Yes. It seems he has siteflaked

[Black]

I think kyouko could be town because she claimed PR and tried to clear me based on that when she could have just claimed VT and helped wagon me if she were scum? I guess it could have been a pocket attempt though

[Black]

I don't think she should be in the town block though. I'm not even sure why geraintm is either. Can someone explain that to me?

[Black]

I don't think she should be in the town block though. I'm not even sure why geraintm is either. Can someone explain that to me?

Hammering my partner day 1, when I could have stayed silent and let them claim something to get the wagon off them. That is what ibthink you have to believe if you think I am scum?

gob was doomed regardless imo. I still don't really like your posts about not remembering if you knew it was going to be a hammer or not. Either you knew you were hammering or you didn't. How can you forget that? It's the "I think I thought" part for me

i ain't gonna do that day 2

Was your D1 hammer intentional? I just assumed you didn't notice that he was at e-1

I wanted Day 1 to end. I think I thought I was the hammer, but it didn't matter much either way.

You can't remember if you thought you were hammering or not?

I think I thought iwas the final vote, but even if I wasn't I was happy placing my vote there (vote counts can get fluid )

[Black]

I don't think the hammer should clear geraintm. Am I wrong for thinking this?

[Black]

Yeah I have my doubts about Dann. I think the way Alianna tried to end the Day so fast in 725 is pretty uncharacteristic of her. I also think her willingness to trust me was really odd considering I completely bamboozled her in Backup6. She even said postgame that she would never trust me again but she ended up half-trusting me this game by believing my claim

[Black]

724 was the post, not 725

[Black]

VOTE: gob

I don't understand what gob is doing but I'm not convinced he isn't just limbait.
Any particular reason to vote him?

A little fence sitty here, and then questioning my vote. +partner equity

Okay fiiiiiiiiiiiine, you can be scum.

VOTE: Doctor Drew

@Altaria - I see what you mean there. I've been looking through gob's completed games for a towngame but it's taken me quite a while to find one.

Man does everyone just blindly follow meta on this site?

I happen to like meta (though I have been burned by it before), but I don't think that's true of everyone on the site and I don't see where the "blind following" is.

Gob seems a bit frustrated here about Alianna considering his meta. He could be legit frustrated that his partner is openly considering it? But I want to say this is probably negative partner equity

Briefly skimmed gob's ISO in DEFCON and it does seem better, though I don't have the context of actually looking at the interactions.

Might give it some time before I vote there though.

+partner equity. Riding the fence

Spoiler: intriguing meta findings that I am not sure how to interpret yet

This is from a scumgame Dragon repped into. Very similar entrance, though not as serious.

VOTE: Xegarus
VOTE: camelCasedSnivy
VOTE: biancospino
VOTE: yessiree
VOTE: RCEnigma
VOTE: Aisa
VOTE: Aureal
VOTE: KittyTacky
VOTE: Celebloki
VOTE: Not_Mafia
VOTE: Doctor Drew
VOTE: KatyKimFanClub

Enchant locktown.

VOTE: Xegarus
VOTE: camelCasedSnivy
VOTE: biancospino
VOTE: yessiree
VOTE: RCEnigma
VOTE: Aisa
VOTE: Aureal
VOTE: KittyTacky
VOTE: Celebloki
VOTE: Not_Mafia
VOTE: Doctor Drew
VOTE: KatyKimFanClub

Enchant locktown.

Is this serious?

Oh, I'm actually townreading that post if that's what you mean, but the locktown isn't 100% serious.

And I don't hate Dragon sheeping then in this manor, this is definitely something I would do as town.

.....are you claiming not town?

Huh?

nvm I just realized last time I pushed something like this as a scumslip it was our doctor. So this is probably makes you town if anything.

Pedit: Enchant is this directed at me or Drew?

I'd be willing to vote Umlaut or gob.
I'd consider Drew or Dragon but I kind of want to see more from them.

Elaborate on Umlaut and Drew

Nothing they've done has townpinged me, and a lot of players have townpinged me this game. That's really it.
I have more experience with Drew and I think I might have a tell on him that works in late game, so I'm inclined to want to keep him alive a little longer.

Gob wants Alianna to go deeper into her non-gob read. Trying to throw her off track? Negative partner equity

^
Plus the pings I got from the way Umlaut sheeped ssbm's case.

VOTE: Umlaut

i would be down with an umlaut wagon btw. i think i want to lim within dragon and umlaut today

Still down to vote Umlaut?

Alianna tries to push Umlaut through right around the time gob starts openwolfing. +partner equity

I'm okay with this.

VOTE: gob

E-1 by my count.

Alianna is pretty quiet when gob is doing his whole "Dragon is obvscum but we don't need to fade him" thing, and then shows up to bus. I think this is +partner equity

yep i'm feeling this too

i feel a little worse about aliana as well. i'm pretty sure she said she thought gob was limbait but joined the wagon anyway

VOTE: Hu Tao

I thought he could be limbait, and I do still think that is a possibility, but I've been pretty consistent in that I'm not townreading or defending him for it.

Alianna defending her read here doesn't feel great but I'm not sure she wouldn't do this as a non-partner

I don't think we can safely put Dann in the townblock

@Drew I'm curious what your thoughts are on Alianna, if you're willing to give them

[Black]

that's fine whatever I didn't want to be in the town block anyway i dont even care

[Black]

At least we replaced someone I really like with someone else I really like

[Black]

that's fine whatever I didn't want to be in the town block anyway i dont even care

I'm curious why you took issue with kyouko being in the townblock but not me? I feel like you should think that I could be scum here. I hopped off of gob D1 and I was JK'ed N1

[Black]

Ok. Do you want to go into your kyouko read or are you waiting for her to claim?

I'm curious what your readslist looks like after you're caught up

[Black]

I think we no lim and let DE decide if he wants to JK Altaria again, JK someone else, or take no action. This way if DE is town here scum have to guess whether they should no kill or not, because if DE no acts and there is no kill it becomes likelier the first night was a frame-up using no kill.

If DE is scum that no killed to frame altaria this doesn't really change anything

VOTE: no elimination

if town!DE dies and flips JK we'll have to eliminate Altaria anyways, but this forces scum to use a nightkill to kill DE instead of making town use 2 lims to kill DE and Altaria

I did think this was weird at the time, and it came before I claimed which I feel like was the main reason kyouko used for townreading me later

[Black]

She wrote that 4 minutes after Dragon revealed that he JK'd me, almost like she had it planned out

[Black]

i guess i can see a world where she wasn't sure if it was an rvs vote and was trying to figure that out

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Umlaut

why is kyouko scum for asking about my drew read?

Asking about your Drew read though - you're saying that as of post 33 you have a read on Drew? That seems hard to believe, and even if it were the case that from that short exchange you two had, you garnered a read, I would expect some kind of material response to why Umlaut should be voting drew, not "because he's scum" or maybe even a material response when I asked you to tell me about Drew. Something feels off here

VOTE: Altaria

This was a really weird thing for her to focus on when I thought it was pretty clear that me wanting to fade Drew was pretty clearly RVS fluff

[Black]

Dann should I not go into this right now? You said you didn't want to go into your kyouko read and here I am like "hmmmmm"

[Black]

Guess I will UNVOTE: for now

[Black]

I may or may not have found a super secret gob towntell that I'll be keeping hidden for now, hard to say because he's like always scum on this site (unlucky) but what I've found is generally present in his scumgame and not present in his towngame.

So maybe it's more of a scumtell but the point is it's not present here and I like gob for town here

I may or may not have found a super secret gob towntell that I'll be keeping hidden for now, hard to say because he's like always scum on this site (unlucky) but what I've found is generally present in his scumgame and not present in his towngame.

So maybe it's more of a scumtell but the point is it's not present here and I like gob for town here

so what was this about?

It's either a scumtell or NAI, more likely NAI

can you tell us what it was

No, I still want to keep it to myself in case it's a scumtell.

^ these are sus

Hmm... it does feel like Dragon probably stopped the killer rather than protected the target

Hmm... it does feel like Dragon probably stopped the killer rather than protected the target

???

He's a claimed JK. Scum shoots him if he's town, and he cant target himself. Therefore.he probably targeted the killer and stopped them from killing

I think we no lim and let DE decide if he wants to JK Altaria again, JK someone else, or take no action. This way if DE is town here scum have to guess whether they should no kill or not, because if DE no acts and there is no kill it becomes likelier the first night was a frame-up using no kill.

If DE is scum that no killed to frame altaria this doesn't really change anything

VOTE: no elimination

There is a disconnect in these three posts and it doesn't really feel like a read progression. It feels planned or faked

[Black]

My role is harder to play around for scum if it is not disclosed to them and claiming it for town isn't going to provide anything useful at this time

I'm not going to get more specific about my claim toDay unless I think it counters someone else's claim. I also think if Dragon has modifiers he should not claim them in this massclaim.

I stand by everything I've said so far about my role though

I think she should probably full claim now though tbh

You'll know my role when I'm dead

VOTE: kyouko

[Black]

Also, there isn't a read in any of those 3 posts, so, yeah, it shouldn't feel like a read progression. All 3 are mech spec

Oops. Typo. That should say "real progression"

And yeah it feels extremely fake for you to say twice that the JK probably targeted the killer and then 4 minutes after Dragon claims he JK'd me, you vote for a no elimination

[Black]

We wait for dragon to confirm.

Drew is town.

We wait for dragon still

Hmm. Hu Tao did bus their scum buddy in Mini Normal 1094 that just ended, so it's possible

I would bus, but not bring my partners name out of no where and say quick wagon it. Either way. We wait for dragon.

Not sure. I think it's dragon or you. But I still wait for dragon

Is dragon getting a prod or something? I'm not sure how those work.

We still wait for dragon

Hi Dann! Happy to play with you again. Waiting for Dragon still.

We get it Hu Tao

[Black]

ping

@mod: please prod Dragon

[Black]

Ok... then prod him in 4 hours. Smh

[Black]

I'll never understand how prods work on this site

It's in the rules at the beginning of the game:

Activity

1. You are expected to make at least one game-relevant post every 48 hours. Players who go 48 hours without posting will be prodded.
2. If you are prodded, you have 24 hours to post in-thread. Prod dodges do not count. If you do not respond within 24 hours, you will be replaced. Additionally, if you accumulate more than 3 prods, I may force replace you.

In this case it's only been 45 hours since the start of the Day so Dragon gets 3 more hours until he's in prod range

[Black]

Also, there isn't a read in any of those 3 posts, so, yeah, it shouldn't feel like a read progression. All 3 are mech spec

Oops. Typo. That should say "real progression"

And yeah it feels extremely fake for you to say twice that the JK probably targeted the killer and then 4 minutes after Dragon claims he JK'd me, you vote for a no elimination

Do you disagree with the reasoning for no elimination? Sounds like you're scumreading me for changing my opinion when I got new information, and at the same time you're saying I planned this with scum!Dragon which would make this a 7:3 game. So if I'm scum with dragon, it's not new information to me.

In the previous post I even said I'm not really thinking too hard until Dragon posts his results. Same thing toDay.

Where in the world did you get that I think you planned this with Dragon?

I think your motive was to vote no elimination all along, just like your plan is to no kill at night

[Black]

Think you're paranoid about being pocketed if you're town, and if you're scum you're kind of stuck here because Dragon has been jailing you.

And what will you say if Dragon didn't jail me N2?

[Black]

482 - kyouko votes for me because I jumped off the gob wagon
535/542 - kyouko says Dragon probably jailed the remaining scum
641 - kyouko votes for no elimination 4 minutes after Dragon reveals that he jailed me

This is why I think kyouko's plan all along was to try and no-kill N1 and no-lim D2. If she were town then her first thought should have been "oh it's obviously Black" but instead she went straight to wanting to no-lim. That's because her plan is to reduce the PoE as little as possible, just like Dann suggested

[Black]

Yeah good question

My only thought is to sow doubt? Keep the PoE as open as possible?

I don't think it's an optimal play so I can't really wrap my head around it

[Black]

Still waiting for that prod

[Black]

We need to know if Dragon targeted anyone before proceeding though.
If he didn't target and there was no kill anyways it seems pretty likely the first night's lack of a kill was from scum intentionally no-killing to frame the JK target. I'm hoping this is the case because it gives us the most to work with.
If he targeted Altaria again, or targeted someone else, it's still possible scum is no-killing to frame Dragon and his targets. It seems unlikely that scum would be focus-firing Altaria on N1 and N2 with a claimed JK on the loose.

How convinced are you that I'm town

[Black]

I mean upon further inspection you look real sus though

I'm not sure why you needed further inspection to determine this. All of those posts you quoted minus the very last one took place before you voted for me in 482. So you should have already thought I was sus going into D2, which makes your decision to vote for no elimination even more strange after Dragon said he jailed me

[Black]

And now you recognize that it seems odd that you are so confident in town!me so you're trying to pretend like you're having conflicting thoughts

[Black]

Frustration isn't alignment indicative. It makes sense for me to be frustrated that no one but me is willing to solve until Dragon shows up

[Black]

How about a readslist kyouko?

[Black]

You have mechanics going for you right now so I won't be voting but if you had no claim you would be my top candidate

Cool story. What about the rest of the playerlist?

[Black]

I think we no lim and let DE decide if he wants to JK Altaria again, JK someone else, or take no action. This way if DE is town here scum have to guess whether they should no kill or not, because if DE no acts and there is no kill it becomes likelier the first night was a frame-up using no kill.

If DE is scum that no killed to frame altaria this doesn't really change anything

VOTE: no elimination

This post doesn't sound like it comes from someone that thinks I'm their top candidate

[Black]

Ignoring mechanics:

Drew, Dragon, geraintm - town
Hu Tao - Hu Towny
Everyone else - can get it
you - scum

What are your thoughts on Alianna/Dannflor?

[Black]

mmhmm

[Black]

kyouko's ISO has a lot of shallow reads like 1043 and I think this is a scumtell of hers. I think she is aware of this which is why she followed up with 1044

You'll see similarities in Large 236 and Large 237. These games were 2 years ago and I think she's gotten better at pretending to be town since then which explains why there's slightly more depth here than in those games. But I think town!kyouko has

way

more depth than what she's displaying here. I think it's difficult for her to mimic her naturally complex town thought progressions as scum based on what I've read from her game history

[Black]

'Cause there's no comfort in the waiting room
Just nervous paces bracing for bad news
And then the nurse comes round
And everyone lifts their heads
But I'm thinking of what Sarah said
That love is watching someone die

[Black]

?

[Black]

I didn't say anything about 1038

[Black]

"Alianna was very middle of the pack"
"I'm scared of Dannflor because meta"

These are shallow. I don't think you're thinking of the game from a town perspective

[Black]

I don't think engaging with you here is helping me read you any better

Back to the waiting room

[Black]

Yes. Did you target me because you townread me or did you think I was scum?

Townread

Still townreading you

Pinging you. Please come play

I'm sorry, I had like no internet connection AND was really fucking exhausted these last few days. Please forgive me.

We completely forgive you. Or at least I do. Real life happens

[Black]

Kinda want to just fade Drew here ngl but I'm still paranoid that scum is no killing

I guess only one way to find out?

VOTE: Drew

[Black]

We don't vote today. We are at even numbers. We no vote

VOTE: no elim

You've been doing nothing but post that you're waiting for Dragon just to say this?

Why didn't you suggest this like 3 days ago?

[Black]

Also can someone explain the whole no lim on even numbers thing. Wouldn't it be best for us to just get rid of the top suspect here and get some information?

[Black]

This will test if scum is no killing as well.

Dragon is out of JK shots so scum will have no incentive to no kill

[Black]

We don't vote today. We are at even numbers. We no vote

VOTE: no elim

You've been doing nothing but post that you're waiting for Dragon just to say this?

Why didn't you suggest this like 3 days ago?

Because we needed to know who he jailed first before I said this.

Why? You could have actually participated in the discussion and we wouldn't be having to have this conversation rn

[Black]

Also why are we voting drew? We didn't vote black yesterday. I'm so confused

People thought I was town and my claim made sense

I think you're the only one townreading Drew

[Black]

Drew might have tried to kill Dragon but got locked up instead

[Black]

Pre Edit: Black, wouldn't scum be more likely to fake a claim that 'makes sense'?

Not necessarily. Weren't you the last to claim? If there are already 3 claimed PRs then a 4th PR claim wouldn't really make sense balance wise here

Plus I think certain people are probably going to just take the easy route and claim VT instead of think of something that fits. I'm not sure if you would do this but I know this type of player exists because I'm one of them

[Black]

Ok then don't lol. Go back to lurking and not doing anything and we will figure this thing out without you

[Black]

Pre Edit: Black, wouldn't scum be more likely to fake a claim that 'makes sense'?

Not necessarily. Weren't you the last to claim? If there are already 3 claimed PRs then a 4th PR claim wouldn't really make sense balance wise here

Plus I think certain people are probably going to just take the easy route and claim VT instead of think of something that fits. I'm not sure if you would do this but I know this type of player exists because I'm one of them

I misread your comment Drew. I think you can ignore my response because I thought you were saying you would claim a PR instead of VT

I think it's funny that you're trying to convince me I'm scum though

[Black]

I'm notoriously awful at setup and balance spec. I legit think I would need someone to help me come up with a fake claim that made sense. I've never fake claimed anything but VT

[Black]

UNVOTE:

I think it might be Dannflor

I'm probably down to go no lim here because I don't think people are going to vote for Dannflor


I haven't been able to shake my gut read on Alianna all game and now it kinda feels like Dannflor has an agenda. I didn't like him asking kyouko if she's Vengeful and I'm not really feeling his 1091. It feels a little over the top in attempt to misfade Drew

I could be wrong but that's two people in this slot now that have given me bad gut feelings, and I think I want to act on them

Dann --> Cele --> Drew would be my order of eliminations if it were up to me

[Black]

Yeah we'll see

[Black]

If it's not you then it's Cele

I think Drew was framed just like I was

[Black]

VOTE: no lim

[Black]

Ok then don't lol. Go back to lurking and not doing anything and we will figure this thing out without you

Not sure why you've been snappy at me all game, but hopefully you're just scum.

I'm sorry

This apology probably won't mean anything until I flip and even then you might not care but you're right. I've been treating you unfairly. I'll control my frustrations better moving forward

[Black]

I can go no elim

VOTE: no elimination

Any thoughts on Dannflor?

[Black]

I want to fade Dannflor here

[Black]

How does hider work again? Scum killed gera?

Yep

And I'm assuming scum killed gera because he's probably the lowest information slot in the game

[Black]

I encourage everyone to look at my 972 and 974 and explain to me why it's not just Alianna/Dannflor here

[Black]

So it's either Cele, Hu, Drew, or Dannflor

I don't want to tunnel here because I did that with kyouko and I was clearly wrong. I'll try to look over things and start eliminating some of these possibilities

[Black]

Okay having skimmed Aliana's ISO I guess I could see her being scum and trying to pocket Drew. And also maybe trying to avoid to committing on a read on me in a hope I just get mislimmed.

BUT I am pretty sure Drew is mechanically scum. Can someone explain to me why he is not scum? Like Black, do you think Aliana/Dannflor no killed twice in a row?

I don't really know what to think. It feels like there are too many possibilities

Would Alianna have wanted me dead N1? Maybe. I did express doubt on her a few times D1

If she didn't think she would be a JK target then she could have submitted the no-kill to frame someone, and then tried to kill Drew N2 if she was worried he would catch on to her

I just don't really know. My mind is going in too many different places here

[Black]

If Dragon's target flips town, I'll probably still townread him tbh.

Well, this has been a long second.

Assuming an execution every day and a kill every night from now on (which may not even happen), we've got four executions left. So we're in a good position.

I don't think I'd ever yeet Dragon or Drew.
I like geraintm's vibes but I'm not sure that's enough to definitively un-POE them.
Idk what I think of Tao and Cele.
Black probably needs to be resolved at some point, but I would want Kyouko to claim before voting there.
Yeeting Umlaut is fine.

Have to think on massclaim.

I guess if Alianna was trying to frame me then maybe she would have pushed me more after Dragon revealed that he jailed me, but I don't really think she had to. The Umlaut wagon gained a decent amount of momentum. Alianna did say she wanted kyouko to claim before voting for me. That could have been her trying to get kyouko to do so. Idk

[Black]

It just feels so weird to see Alianna trying to rush the day, and her joining the Umlaut wagon just feels like she was ok with the mislim

If Drew is the better mechanical play then that's fine, but I don't think we can let Dannflor get to ELO

[Black]

I haven't really thought it was Cele but he has been rather appease-y and lurky so I could see it

I do slightly want to apologize to you, I still think you are likely scum lol, but I was in a mood yesterday and probably came off a bit too much like a stubborn dick.

I think you are correct, scum or town, I do need to be a bit more open with my reads. And ironically enough I have felt the same way about Cele as of late. Like as we were arguing and your read of me started to become and scum read, it did feel a little like he was trying to stoke the flame.

I promise this is not a pocket attempt haha.

Also if we have to lose Aliana, I could not think of a better person than Dann to replace her.......look at this, Drew spreading the holiday cheer all around!

This does feel really weird considering I've been Drew's #1 pick for scum for awhile now

[Black]

Maybe it is just Hu Tao here

[Black]

Looking over her ISO I'm seeing a lot of similarities to Mini Normal 1094 that just ended


I think one of Hu's scumtells is that she's slightly more verbose than usual. And she gets defensive while calling people that attack her defensive. She literally called me defensive in 1094 in almost the exact same way that she did in 56. I think one of her tactics as scum is to undermine people pushing her by calling them defensive

[Black]

She locktowned Drew for "making so much sense" and has maintained that the entire game without ever second guessing herself. I don't think the strength of that read feels natural. It feels more like a pocket attempt

[Black]

Yes. Post 45 seems forced, they voted me based on the gob vote but I never explained my gob vote. If they were curious about it then they would have just asked me before voting or suspecting me.

I didn't get the impression she voted you for 31, I thought she was voting you for 39 and 41

dragoneater is right. your "why" made me feel like you were concerned about the vote and i didn't like how you accepted "why not" as an answer originally

i'm not sure how this wasn't obvious to you after 55?

also i disagree with the assessment that i would have just asked you about it before putting pressure on you. sometimes people use voting as a way to communicate

Okay, maybe that's my misunderstanding then

This reminds me of another moment in 1094 where Hu tried to push me for bad reasons and then backed off in a real appease-y type way

I think we need a flip. This game seems ro be the same conversation in different ways to me.

This was an awful take and a complete misrep over the state of the game at the time

I'm also starting to get sus of Gob but I'm not sure why.

This looks really bad in hindsight

how am i sheeping umlaut when i expressed suspicion there before he even voted?

i'll admit i considered not going there because i'm still somewhat suspicious of umlaut but i think the way hu tao has tagged along on both the dragon and gob wagons outweighs those worries about umlaut

i'm a little wary of you and aliana but y'all are both putting in more effort than hu tao. i think celebloki and drew are town, and i know i'm town, so i'm not sure why you think it's a bad look for me to push hu tao here

So I'm scum because I'm not putting enough effort in for your liking?

that's certainly one way to phrase it

i think you could be scum because you're not really doing much solving, you want to end the day for a reason i don't think makes much sense, and you're just jumping from wagon to wagon without much reasoning

I started the gob quick wagon. So if I'm scum are you saying I'm saving my scum teammate dragon after making him claim? Or are you saying I'm scum who wanted to remove pressure off one town to another?

Hu comes across as pretty defensive here

[Black]

I've been thinking that the last scum is someone that has been scumreading Dragon and putting him in their solves. Hu Tao has been doing that more than anyone

[Black]

Hu Tao is also doing the least amount of solving and seems to just be lurking through the game not saying much of anything. I kinda thought it was lazy town but now I just think it's scum motivated

[Black]

I'm gonna do a deep dive on this tomorrow morning when I can use my PC

In the meantime, Hu I think you should probably give as many reads as possible. And be detailed about them

[Black]

No Elim is still the best to do now and not later

since scum haven't killed twice in a row

but I can't be bothered to try to argue here.

>.>

[Black]

I know I said I would deep dive tomorrow but in the Arby's drive thru and I feel like I found a deep wolf and it's gotten me excited