Mini Normal 2316 | Halloween | Endgame

[AnimatedWiz]

Hi everyone!

VOTE: Heipizhu.

[AnimatedWiz]

kindest regards to you all .

How have you guys been?

Honestly, not too bad. Bit of a recent flare-up, but I’ve gotten back into sewing to prep for starting to make cosplay and historical kit by hand, which is super exciting!

What about you?

[AnimatedWiz]

VOTE: heip 5 feels awkward as hell

From what I remember, Zhu just speaks like that—don’t think the awkwardness is alignment-indicative, personally.

[AnimatedWiz]

Actually, VOTE: Wartortle.

[AnimatedWiz]

Talk to me about that

idk, it's the vibe I get

I think that’s fair—I mean, my reasoning for voting Wartortle also just boils down to receiving a suspicious vibe. Hopefully at least one of us is onto something here.

[AnimatedWiz]

I’m unsure if this is just a me thing, but I still worry about appearance when I’m town—don’t want to mislead anyone to an incorrect elimination, after all. I would also agree that it’s nothing to really base a read off of just yet.

[AnimatedWiz]

I imagine once everyone has said something it’ll be a lot easier for us to start drawing lines in the sand and reading into stuff—might just have to wait for the morning for that, though.

[AnimatedWiz]

Afrayed, how are you feeling about TheHoldSteady right now? I feel like y’all have similar playstyles, so you might have a better insight into this push than I do.

[AnimatedWiz]

I get the suspicion, but I really am just asking someone for their read on someone else. Your call on whether it’s bad play or scummy, though.

[AnimatedWiz]

I, personally, am finding myself scumreading Wartortle—I admit it’s just base intuition for that read, though.

[AnimatedWiz]

Anyone here?

Yo.

VOTE: heip 5 feels awkward as hell

From what I remember, Zhu just speaks like that—don’t think the awkwardness is alignment-indicative, personally.

Was wondering where you got this perspective from. The only game you two played together (to my knowledge) was 2311, where Heip was scum. How do you know it's not a scum-indicative trait for him?

Realized I never responded to this—I suppose I don’t know that for Zhu it

definitely

isn’t a scumtell, but as I talked about with DE, I don’t think that general awkwardness or caring about appearance is an amazing way to sort people if such stuff is presented early and consistently.

[AnimatedWiz]

I, personally, am finding myself scumreading Wartortle—I admit it’s just base intuition for that read, though.

Please elaborate on this

Every post I read of his strikes me as… alteriorly-motivated? It’s a very weird feeling to try to describe, but that’s the best word to use, I suppose.

I’m personally wondering if the early timing of this read has led me astray (since I don’t have much else to go off of), so that might change—or even maybe I’m subconsciously opposed to Wartortle mostly due to him thinking

I’m

scummy?

I just feel like Wartortle is trying to do a lot of persuading very early off of very little, which could be a playstyle thing… but as of now, best scumread I have.

[AnimatedWiz]

Complaining about RVS and a lack of content at the end of page 1 just felt… unnatural? His subsequent posts have been read through that lens, which has likely colored my view of him in a way that’s different from what y’all have been seeing.

[AnimatedWiz]

His posts on THS are, to me, a very strong argument for so early on—likely to pressure THS like everyone else was with their votes, though. While I can see a townie logic behind the strategy, I don’t want to ignore what my gut’s saying just yet. I’m sure that I’ll have that better sorted as we see more from him.

I don’t feel like I have any other substantial reads just yet—most everyone who’s posted is either a bit suspicious in my opinion, or null from not having posted much (we still have two players who haven’t said anything, after all). I tend to start out being suspicious of everyone, so it always takes a bit for me to townread someone early on.

[AnimatedWiz]

I will say, I am appreciating you, Python, and Smiley providing a lot of thoughts on these posts—I think that being able to see them as D1 goes on will allow me to sort y’all far easier due to the volume of material (and being able to see the trajectory of it through time).

[AnimatedWiz]

To me, the argument feels like it‘s somewhat forced, which could either be due to Wartortle being scum and trying to lead us elsewhere early on, or due to trying to generate pressure on THS and see what shakes loose as a result.

THS getting a bunch of votes (5 in the first 100 posts) is applied pressure—most players in that situation defend themselves by making a case or answering questions, and that pressure is either heightened or relieved on how satisfactory that defense is.

Usually I’m a bit slower to develop solid reads than other players, yes—I would like to say I’m through about them, but a better word is perhaps “exacting.”

I wasn’t trying to say that other players not having posted prevents me from reading others entirely—however, I will say that my reads often come easier with more people to compare to each other. Juxtaposition is often a great tool for me.

[AnimatedWiz]

And I think I might have not communicated what I meant properly—I was not implying that the three of y’all I mentioned were specifically null or suspicious for having a lot of thoughts, just that y’all communicating them frequently was nice because it’ll help me get a better read on y’all as time goes on.

Out of the three of y’all, Python strikes me as towniest (though not enough to be a confident townread). I am unsure of how I feel about their actions so far, but they seem to be very concise and clear about their thoughts and that has made me more willing to trust them—it allows for less misinterpretation for me, and less wiggle room to escape from for them.

Smiley is in the middle for me, mostly due to having the least substantive posts out of this trio—not a bad thing, but I just have the least to go off of here. Still, I like that are asking questions and trying to connect people’s posts through time.

You are last in that list, as while you’re very meticulous with your questions to me (which to me rings as someone who wants to learn from the rest of the town to better cooperate later on), the repeated joke about openwolfing (and your subsequent behavior of trying to take charge and posting a lot) makes me pause, as it could very easily be a cover for actually openwolfing. After all, if you say you’ll pocket someone in a joking manner, you have a defense prepped in case anyone accuses you of it later.


You’ve also been very, uh, flip-floppy so far? It’s not bad to change your reads early, but the way you’ve kind of announced your intent to lead and be convincing is a mismatch with your actual reads and votes. You have more questions that reads, and those questions tend to have a lot more text than your own feelings on things (not all the time the though—posts like 118 are substantial). Additionally, you seem to be making a lot of strong arguments with lacking evidence in the vein of what I was talking about with Wartortle (like 118, again), and also sort of collaborating with him? I wouldn’t call it a partnership or anything, but I do want to note that you have supported his theories.

[AnimatedWiz]

I, uh, didn’t know those would be wallposts, sorry!

[AnimatedWiz]

I am… still unsure about you, DragonEater, but you’ve risen in my reads some with your answers.

I genuinely feel like we are misunderstanding each other some. For example, I thought you saying you wete openwolfing meant you were planning to take charge and lead the town (and that you have to be scum to openwolf), which is apparently not what you meant by that? I might honestly not know the correct definition for the term, though.

However, you do bring up a fair point that it’s not the fairest of me to scumread you for having somewhat, uh, inconsistent reads, because it’s not like I have the strongest ones either.

Also, for reference, both THS and OWER are null reads for me—I have found little evidence to condemn either, but I’m not opposed to y’all pressuring them to get us more info. I didn’t really say anything about that argument because I didn’t have many original thoughts to add, aside from that the push on THS isn’t backed by convincing arguments.

[AnimatedWiz]

@Ani - when I say "openwolf" I mean "play in an intentionally scummy way, without making any effort to appear towny". Usually that term is indeed applied to mafia, but it can be applied to town as well.

Thanks for clarifying!

[AnimatedWiz]

Hm… I would like to say that I trust Naerys right now. I don’t necessarily agree with reading Blackstar’s posts as trying to buddy up, but I don’t feel like she’s trying to mislead us when saying how she views the interaction.

[AnimatedWiz]

So THS is at E-3, currently.

[AnimatedWiz]

UNVOTE: THS

So far I have little to no confidence in this town

This is not towny reaction

Why do you say that—is it just this unvote, or including the self-vote?

[AnimatedWiz]

What do you think of DE, Enchant? I mean, aside from the return vote?

[AnimatedWiz]

Can you elaborate on this? AFAIK Enchant seems to have a jokey NotMafia-esque vibe to them so gut instinct is that's an NAI entrance for them.

Oh my god, you’re totally right that Enchant plays similarly to Not_Mafia—I didn’t make that connection before.

From what I understand (I’ve only played with Enchant at the end of a single game, so a few grains of salt here), that entrance being called NAI seems accurate. They’re very, uh, difficult to read, but nothing seems afoot to me—this tracks with how they were then, in my opinion.

[AnimatedWiz]

While I have you, what do you think of 210

I mean, there’s nothing particularly wrong with wanting to exit RVS as soon as possible, but the way he was speaking in those early posts did not strike me as town-indicative at all. I would think it townier to perhaps complain about RVS and

then

something about ending RVS like he does in 18, instead of that order being flipped.


Additionally, the crumbing of being a vanilla townie in 20 was really weird, especially since it felt like he was also implying he wanted us to get to N1 ASAP, which I don’t feel like a slot with no night ability would be so keen on.

[AnimatedWiz]

What do you think of DE, Enchant? I mean, aside from the return vote?

VOTE: Wiz

This is such a useless question to ask and it's making me feel Wiz is just trying to appear like he's solving and engaging, but doesn't have any real intent behind it.

AFAIK Enchant seems to have a jokey NotMafia-esque vibe to them so gut instinct is that's an NAI entrance for them.

You are right, but I feel town!Enchant does make an effort to solve while scum Enchant doesn't. It's probably too early to judge, but honestly I expected town!Enchant to come in and vote someone and talk about how that person is obvscum, even if it was in a trollish way and with troll reasoning.

However that read is a weaker scumread than that that I just got on Wiz from asking that question.

To clarify, you are saying that determining if Enchant has reasoning behind an early vote is useful to determining whether they’re scummy, but when I ask Enchant if they have reasoning, I’m asking a useless question. I don’t think I follow this logic—I feel like your defense here is just shifting attention onto me and Enchant instead of a substantial refutation.

[AnimatedWiz]

Hm… if everyone else is not seeing Wartortle’s opener as being scummy, I suppose I’ll have to put my push to the side for now.

VOTE: Hu Tao, since a bit of pressure on a slot with two total posts (literally less than 1% of all posts so far) is likely a good move to generate content.

[AnimatedWiz]

Spoiler:

UNVOTE: THS

So far I have little to no confidence in this town

This is not towny reaction

Why do you say that—is it just this unvote, or including the self-vote?

feels like demeaning towns capabilities, also the phrase "in this town" feels like THS belongs to the informed minority
i could also be overthinking a bit, but its the feeling i got from that post

I mean, I think a townie who feels on the outs would also probably other themselves from the town—after all, they don’t feel like part of the team, even if they’re still in the uninformed majority. I just don’t think it’s conclusive either way.

[AnimatedWiz]

That said I'm also a little bit weird on Naerys at this point as I find it strange that she brings up post 20 as her reason for SRing Wartortle but only started pushing that read recently. I don't feel like that lines up with Naerys own opening in 39 and 41.

Hm, I would like to share a theory of mine: I think Naerys’s read changing on Wartortle is likely due to 216, since it’s the only post before hers to directly mention 20 at all. We know her read on him changed because in 68 she agreed with him enough to change her vote accordingly.

If this is the case, it likely means one of these two possibilities is true:

a) She saw my post and honestly thought it a convincing case in addition to everything else said on Wartortle, and thus switched her tune on him—in this case, her flipping her reads when other people present counter arguments likely means she is struggling to properly sort anyone out yet.


b) She saw that I was townreading her earlier in 160 and is hoping to get a pocket on me by sheeping my reads. I think that this would make the most sense out of the two options if we take 199 as a correct observation.

[AnimatedWiz]

That said I'm also a little bit weird on Naerys at this point as I find it strange that she brings up post 20 as her reason for SRing Wartortle but only started pushing that read recently. I don't feel like that lines up with Naerys own opening in 39 and 41.

Hm, I would like to share a theory of mine: I think Naerys’s read changing on Wartortle is likely due to 216, since it’s the only post before hers to directly mention 20 at all. We know her read on him changed because in 68 she agreed with him enough to change her vote accordingly.

If this is the case, it likely means one of these two possibilities is true:

a) She saw my post and honestly thought it a convincing case in addition to everything else said on Wartortle, and thus switched her tune on him—in this case, her flipping her reads when other people present counter arguments likely means she is struggling to properly sort anyone out yet.

b) She saw that I was townreading her earlier in 160 and is hoping to get a pocket on me by sheeping my reads. I think that this would make the most sense out of the two options if we take 199 as a correct observation.

VOTE: AnimatedWiz

So I’m getting the sense that you don’t agree with my theory—all fine and good.

[AnimatedWiz]

I’m not opposed to y’all pressuring them to get us more info.

Ya'll? Why don't you pressure me yourself? You definitely seem more hesitant this game to step on any toes.

In the same paragraph that quote is taken from, I state that I don’t think you’re scummy then—I’m fine with them pressuring you if it helps them figure you out and focus on someone with a better case against them. Why vote someone back to E-2 if I have several other scumreads ahead of them.

Plus, I would say spending like 10 posts in a row debating with DragonEater about how I think him and Wartortle are scummy isn’t being hesitant to step on toes, nor is sharing a theory about Naerys sheeping multiple people.

[AnimatedWiz]

Uh, two thoughts :

1) I really didn’t know OWER was trying to ask Naerys specifically on why she changed her vote and such, which is why I shared my theory on that—wasn’t trying to speak for her .

I also see what you mean about the two-pronged theory not being super helpful—I think in trying to be accurate (and therefore covering all the possibilities I could see), I lost most of the decisiveness of just presenting the possibility I thought most applicable. I appreciate you pointing that fact out for me—I’ll have to try to be more narrow with my theories in the future so they can have more… oomph.

2) I’m definitely playing different from my first town game, which I think is a good thing—in that game, I spent a lot of time taking arguments very personally and thinking people were out to get me when they pressured me (you can read my PT there to see this), and over the course of that game I realized that I needed to chill. The point of that PT was to document my thoughts then so I could learn from that game and play better now.

So yeah, I’m less, uh, fiery and direct this time around, but I’m also enjoying this game way more because I know a lot more strategy and how to not freak my anxiety out needlessly. I think we’d all probably be bad players if we didn’t grow beyond our first games, y’know?

[AnimatedWiz]

b) She saw that I was townreading her earlier in 160 and is hoping to get a pocket on me by sheeping my reads.

I think that this would make the most sense out of the two options if we take 199 as a correct observation.

This is the theory I was presenting as the one I believe in, and here’s where I say that. I am scumreading Naerys.

[AnimatedWiz]

I am not trying to dance around your questions, but I

am

having a really hard time picking up on when you’re trying to ask for stuff, unfortunately.

[AnimatedWiz]

Sheeping my read, as well as the rest of that scumlist where I discovered it—seeing that post set off alarm bells in my head, just like how my post did for you. I was shocked that I was the top townread when we hadn’t really interacted at all beforehand, and the dig against you for being inactive felt like it was being set up for later use as an excuse to turn on you.


Also, I earlier (136) said that I generally am willing to trust Python—it’s hard to back out of the pocket theory if I’ve previously said that, at least not without a Python scumflip or something.

[AnimatedWiz]

If I could ask you, OWER, what are your reads right now?

[AnimatedWiz]

My whole theory was about how I thought Naerys was sheeping me in an attempt to pocket me, and I included post links and everything—this is not meant to be mean, but did you forget?

Also, what is your read on BlackStar specifically?

[AnimatedWiz]

I agree we haven’t had much direct interaction, but I think that fact supports my theory instead of weakening it—it’s weird to have me as a top townread and sheep my reads when we’ve not interacted aside from me saying that I want to trust her once.

I think all of that was part of subtle attempt at making me want to further trust her over time without having any easy, quotable evidence like directly saying she trusts me or likes me or something. It’s quite natural to trust people who have similar reads, especially if other people are against those reads, right—that’s the way I think she was trying to pocket me.

Plus, out of everyone in the town, I was probably the best candidate for her to try that on, since I’m new, already reading her favorably, and have reads that other people are against.

[AnimatedWiz]

I agree we haven’t had much direct interaction, but I think that fact supports my theory instead of weakening it—it’s weird to have me as a top townread and sheep my reads when we’ve not interacted aside from me saying that I want to trust her once.

I think all of that was part of subtle attempt at making me want to further trust her over time without having any easy, quotable evidence like directly saying she trusts me or likes me or something. It’s quite natural to trust people who have similar reads, especially if other people are against those reads, right—that’s the way I think she was trying to pocket me.

Plus, out of everyone in the town, I was probably the best candidate for her to try that on, since I’m new, already reading her favorably, and have reads that other people are against.

VOTE: animatedwiz

I don’t get why you’ve spent so much time talking about how you’re suspicious of Naerys but you don’t seem to have any intention of voting her. It feels like you want approval from everyone first

I’m explaining my theory because people keep questioning me about it.

Also, VOTE: DragonEater. Weird last three posts.

[AnimatedWiz]

Why is it weird to have someone you haven't really interacted with as a TR? What does Naerys get from pocketing YOU specifically, especially considering that you haven't really been in control of the game-state throughout this entire day?

Well, there’s always the possibility of keeping me around as limbait, or just trying to keep me until LimLo where I hopefully vote with her. I think she benefits from pocketing anyone, and I was judged to be an opportune target for that.

[AnimatedWiz]

Also, VOTE: DragonEater. Weird last three posts.

I don't get what's so weird about them

They struck me with an odd vibe that matched the earlier vibe I got from DE’s posts that made me distrust him in the first place—doesn’t surprise me that you didn’t catch it since you didn’t catch the same vibe earlier.

To me, it felt like an attempt to appear involved without committing—a way to say, “I’d vote Annie,” without having to actually vote me, because he can come back tomorrow and say he read over everything and changed his mind. It’s like OWER was accusing me of—appearing to support a cause while still keeping the back door open.

[AnimatedWiz]

You were just talking about how you feel confident in your theory and then you go and vote for someone else entirely. I don’t get it

I feel confident in scum!Naerys, but

more

confident in scum!DE.

[AnimatedWiz]

Just for the record, this is the post I typed out earlier (before I fell asleep):

VOTE: Wiz

I just don't see anything towny about him. I'm not saying the slot *screams* "scum", but I feel I could towncase literally everyone in this game except Wiz, Enchant and Hu Tao. And Hu Tao has made 2 posts. And Enchant is Enchant.

I think this is another example of you trying push me while leaving the backdoor open—saying I don’t “scream scum,” but still supporting the vote on me (and trying to make it even easier to disavow by saying it was the post you were “going to send” while you were sleepy).

Also, if you townread everyone except me and two people you don’t have much of a read on yet, you don’t have enough scumreads. I think you are trying to avoid offending everyone to go with the flow.

[AnimatedWiz]

If I was scum and wanted to play in a way where I wouldn’t be caught, I would not be silly enough to repeat similar tactics that got me scumread by people in my last scum game… especially when those same people are now in this game, and on D1 no less.

Me sounding similar in both games is why BlackStar is scumreading me, and if I remember correctly, it’s the same for Hu Tao and, uh, maybe Enchant? Me sounding similar to last game to them doesn’t track with me attempting to fly under the radar.

[AnimatedWiz]

Honestly, it’s mostly that I’ve switched votes a few times, and back then I was accused (rightfully so) of attempting to stay in the middle to avoid provoking any retaliation. I feel like I’ve been better about making my scumreads clear this game and being loud about them, but the two-pronged Naerys theory and switching to pressure-vote Hu Tao are probably sticking in their minds more than anything else I’ve done.

[AnimatedWiz]

Well, convincing you of my read on you being right is pointless. Really, I’m trying to share my thought process for this stuff as thoroughly as possible, because there is a real chance I’m our first miselim—I’d like to make sure that I can help the town with my hunting, regardless of whether I survive to D2. I don’t want to lead any investigations astray with being too, uh, quiet or unclear about stuff.

I have given you every reason I’ve thought for you being scummy, and talked plenty about Naerys, too—so for now, I just have to wait for the others to come to their own judgments about whether I make any valid points. Hopefully that results in me sticking around for at least a little longer, because I’d really like to get more info on stuff.

[AnimatedWiz]

I am going for an op tmorrow ( having my gallbladder removed)
So i am not sure if i will be able to post tomorrow. I should be released on Wednesday, so i will see when i will be back.

Good luck—hopefully everything goes well.

[AnimatedWiz]

Hm… I think seeing how Roden reads everything up to this point and proceeds after will be great for clarifying some stuff on that slot—hopefully it’ll help y’all see what I’m seeing if multiple players act scummy in the same slot.

[AnimatedWiz]

Ah jeez, it’s like a whole new game with all these replacements—nice to see you though, Black.

[AnimatedWiz]

I would love the game state to change, considering I’m on the chopping block—just means I have to now consider two player’s playstyles in one single spot, multiple times. Greater mental load for a bit.

[AnimatedWiz]

Hm, as weird as THS has been this game, I do feel it’s mostly consistent with this town game of his that I was also in.

From what I remember (and just read over in his ISO there), he frequently changed his reads based on new perspectives from other people, and was willing to really argue for stuff he might back off from later—I wouldn’t say he’s wishy-washy, but more like, uh, willing to be a devil’s advocate to generate content. He also wasn’t really sure how to read me there for the majority of the game (at least, based on what he posted), so the fact that he’s having some issues here feels like a continuation of that trend.

Townread for now.

[AnimatedWiz]

We vibed with his early posting and then kinda mentally checked out from the game once the Wiz/DE walls started happening

Just realised that even if people start posting about new stuff it's still gonna be in relation to the reactions to those walls and we'll still have to read the original walls

pain

-A

This makes sense to me, personally—at a certain point when I was deep in the walling, I realized I needed to pull away a bit or I was going to just fully sap everyone of our mental energy, me included. I totally see a townie saying this.

[AnimatedWiz]

I feel like, hm… I do townread Python, since from the beginning they seemed to have good questions and like they were involved even if there was the occasional break in posting. I would say, uh, it seems to me like they have their reads really close to their chest, but whenever they ask a question I do really feel like they’re trying to sort everyone out from that.

For me, I got that feeling around pages 4-8 or so, so you might not be reading them same way since you came in later and read everything all at once.

[AnimatedWiz]

Hm, on going back through their ISO, I both don’t see many questions (most are after you start questioning them around page, uh, 17 or so?) and also not a lot of stuff that feel like sorting. Lots of, “this person is spitting,” or “this is an issue, but not enough to do something about it,” which is weird (both because I somehow remembered them asking questions when they didn’t, and also because it’s very, uh, passive).

I feel like, um, early on they were pretty concise and stated their feelings on posts (which I said something about in 136), but after a while it gets a bit muddier about what they’re feeling—still have posts that are just as short, but they have far less clarity. They also admit to sheeping at one point, which is also pretty passive.

I wouldn’t say I scumread Python now, but this reread did evaporate the townread I had on them.

[AnimatedWiz]

I feel like it would be way easier and less suspicious if I just… said I wasn’t sure about Python in the first place here, instead of going, “I really trust them, oh wait, never mind.”

[AnimatedWiz]

You already mentioned earlier that you town read them, so that wouldn't have worked

What I’m saying is, I could’ve just said I changed my mind in the first post I made and said all the stuff about, “they’ve become less clear over time and have been really passive,” instead of saying something that turned out to not be true first.

Unfortunately, it’s just that I held the town’s idiot ball for a bit.

P.E.: I think BlackStar is town—this feels like him last game, and a lot of the logic he’s using makes sense to me if he’s applying stuff he learned in the last game here to sort me.

[AnimatedWiz]

Does it seem to you like he's actually trying to make the lims he wants happen?

After rereading his ISO, I think you have a point about him not trying hard to push his reads through. Before I saw him as being willing to change his reads and adapt, but now it feels like he's just shifting his vote to anyone for weak reasons

Just to clarify, you said this and then put Wartortle at the top of your neutral reads, right? Did anything happen in between these two points?

[AnimatedWiz]

Like it looks like we're sheeping people cause half the time people stole our takes while we were asleep, posts like 202 were the few times we didn't get sniped

The stuff about time zones makes sense, because a lot of content is generated when y’all aren’t active, but I’m still a little confused—in 267, y’all said you were sheeping.

[AnimatedWiz]

Like it looks like we're sheeping people cause half the time people stole our takes while we were asleep, posts like 202 were the few times we didn't get sniped

The stuff about time zones makes sense, because a lot of content is generated when y’all aren’t active, but I’m still a little confused—in 267, y’all said you were sheeping.

Doesn't sheeping mean you're voting someone for the same reason someone else is?

I thought sheeping meant voting for the sole reason of copying another player, in the assumption that they’re correct. I think you’re right about us using different definitions—that’s probably where the confusion is coming from.

[AnimatedWiz]

I would be all right with going for OWER, but I would honestly consider eliminating Roden today instead—DE’s posts and the general progression of them really struck me as scummy, and the lack of any other interaction since the replacement has, uh, allowed that slot to slip under the radar some in the last day or two.

I get if the absence of Roden makes this less of a priority though.

[AnimatedWiz]

Town

: Black, TheHoldSteady

Townlean

: BlackStar, thestatusquo, usesPython, Enchant

Null

: SmileyDude1, Hu Tao

Scumlean

: Wartortle, Naerys, OutworldER

Scum

: Roden

[AnimatedWiz]

Outworld, could we see an updated readslist from you? I think it would help us understand where you’re at now.

[AnimatedWiz]

DE/Roden, Black <--- Townread
Hu Tao, Smiley <--- Townlean
Naerys, THS <-- Null
Enchant, Python <-- Scumlean
AnimatedWiz, Wartortle <-- Scumread

Hu Tao gets a townlean from me because I genuinely don't think scum that's playing the way she is would make the vote she made in 264.

Thanks! Why/when did your thought process on Hu Tao switch, exactly? You scumread them hard in 291, which was

after

264.

[AnimatedWiz]

I don't want to lim:
SmileyDude1
AnimatedWiz
Enchant
Black
TheHoldSteady

Why Smiley?

[AnimatedWiz]

Town

: Black, TheHoldSteady

Townlean

: BlackStar, thestatusquo, usesPython, Enchant

Null

: SmileyDude1, Hu Tao

Scumlean

: Wartortle, Naerys, OutworldER

Scum

: Roden

Why is Enchant a town lean for you?

Enchant, despite all the silly fluff, really is contributing every once in a while—a read here, some extra info there. It’s not a lot, I admit, but it’s still enough to put them at the bottom of townlean for me.

[AnimatedWiz]

Page 20:
{OWER}
{Smiley, Black, Shea}
{Wiz}
{DE70, Blackstar}
{THS}
{Hu Tao, Wartle}
{Naerys}

What on Page 20 helped y’all get past that block on reading me?

[AnimatedWiz]

I think just interacting with us helps a lot with making people more sortable when we check out from the game

That’s totally fair—thanks for explaining.

[AnimatedWiz]

We're caught up

VOTE: Wartle

This is

E-3

, by the way.

[AnimatedWiz]

Town

: Black, TheHoldSteady

Townlean

: BlackStar, thestatusquo, usesPython, Enchant

Null

: SmileyDude1, Hu Tao

Scumlean

: Wartortle, Naerys, OutworldER

Scum

: Roden

Based on the previous games we've played together, what are your thoughts on me now?

You are playing with a lot less presence than our last game, which is

odd

. Other people seem to be saying that it’s not alignment-indicative, but you’ve posted significantly less and it’s a lot more, uh, focused on just announcing that you’re scumreading me (and Python, twice). With 13 posts over 6 days, it feels like you’re intending to fly under the radar, and it’s starting to give me bad vibes.

I’d put you at the top of scumlean for now—I fear 528 isn’t continuing to pan out.

[AnimatedWiz]

Could we get a readslist from you? Would likely help us understand who you townread, since that’s not been mentioned at all so far.

[AnimatedWiz]

Not getting amazing vibes from Roden’s catch-up, but I’ll have to provide details later this morning.

[AnimatedWiz]

Not getting amazing vibes from Roden’s catch-up, but I’ll have to provide details later this morning.

Sorry, work turned out to be extremely hectic today, so it took a bit longer for me to look over the catch-up again and see what was pinging me.

The main thing I was that Roden only caught up to page 15, and I thought it was suspicious for him to only read up to around when public opinion on the slot started to shift and people started questioning him… but upon checking out page 15, I realized that’s right after when Roden replaced into the game, so that argument is out the window.

I still think the slot is scum, but I don’t think any of the actual reads (minus one) or the fact they’re based on the first 15 pages is anything too alignment-indicative to me on their own.

However, I do feel like there’s a real possibility of Roden trying to push/bus Naerys here. While I do think Naerys is scummy, I find it suspicious that the his Naerys read seemed far tamer than his OWER read, but she still earned his vote.

P.E.: I do think Black’s point about Roden’s vote being based on the most recent VC is notable, because that is really odd. If you’re planning to not read up until night phase, it’s not reasonable to vote based on something out of context like a later VC.

[AnimatedWiz]

Also, I’d like to say that my scumread on Naerys is has softened a bit when I think more critically about her ISO and the context—I do think my initial vibe-based scumread was valid, but I think I was sort of reaching about the pocketing attempt. That theory certainly could be the case, but upon rereading the evidence was not enough to build my push on. Her later posts still give me scum vibes, especially how she flip-flops on people (especially on me in these)—I just feel like other slots have more damning evidence at this point, especially since they’ve posted a lot more stuff with bad vibes.

Still a solid scumlean, but I’d prefer to eliminate OWER or Roden over her right now (maybe Wartortle too).

[AnimatedWiz]

Well, good luck to everyone—I hope we got this right.

We might have a longer twilight on our hands, so we can still probably discuss stuff if we’d like.

[AnimatedWiz]

I mean, I’ve seen how effective Enchant in the late game can be—they’re no slouch once they’re able to have a lot of information. And still, they did provide their reads and information through D1 here—not really a troll, just someone who obfuscates a lot to ensure they make it deep into the game.

I do think D1 tends to be a drag for a lot of people, though—so many vibes to comb through, and so little mech to help sort it out. Might as well make it a little more fun to have the will to keep playing, y’know?

[AnimatedWiz]

Wartortle, I understand if this isn’t super convenient, but would you be able to provide a final readslist or something along those lines? Would help us sort people out as we continue on.

[AnimatedWiz]

I’d rather have it and not end up using it than want to use it but not have it.

[AnimatedWiz]

Yeah, Naerys went to E-1 and Enchant hammered about… 20 minutes after or so?

[AnimatedWiz]

I agree on Shea, but I personally think Black’s pushes so far have been mostly based on evidence we all agreed on—I think we just happened to be led astray by behavior that likely isn’t alignment-indicative on other sites, but is here.

[AnimatedWiz]

For what it's worth, if this does flip town I don't think it was a scum-driven wagon.

It feels like it built up naturally.

Oh? Who would you say is the scum that drove the wagon?

[AnimatedWiz]

The part where they reread the game and gave us their reads on each page. It felt like that was all a show to justify hopping on the Wartortle wagon. Especially since they didn’t give us any insight on why they ranked people where they did as they were reading.

Before the reread, they said Wartortle was “spitting” a couple of times and sheeped him on an early read. The jump from that to voting him felt off. They even had Naerys ranked below him after the reread and still voted for Wartortle

Hm, you do make a good point about how they changed their read on Wartortle and voted for him despite Naerys being read worse and also having a sizable wagon.


691 feels sort of weird considering how they themselves, uh, did the flipside of what they were complaining about—they acted very negatively towards someone who

wasn’t

their biggest scumread.

[AnimatedWiz]

Well that’s weird.

[AnimatedWiz]

We could have a protective role, or perhaps the scumteam elected to not use their nightkill?

[AnimatedWiz]

We could have a protective role, or perhaps the scumteam elected to not use their nightkill?

Nah, personally never witnessed scum not using their nightkill. They need to weaken town as fast as possible, or they risk being found out and limmed.

Yeah, I think you’re totally right that killing would be the correct move on N1—I personally think the mindgames of a fake protective claim or something wouldn’t be as effective as just getting rid of the opposition, but maybe it’s WIFOM thing?

Food for thought, but we should definitely assume it was just a blocked kill, yeah.

[AnimatedWiz]

The speed of going from "maybe they didn't kill anyone" to immediately agreeing that "not killing would've been the wrong" was too abrupt

I mean, I did say it was still a possibility for them to not NK, but I do think Naerys is right that it makes more sense for the NK to just have been blocked—I personally don’t know of a good reason to mess up the math for the mindgames that come with this, but I’m new.

Trying to not overcomplicate my analysis and or miss the forest for the trees, y’know?

[AnimatedWiz]

I am, hm… I feel like this beginning to D2 has changed some of my reads a bit. I do think BlackStar is town, and Black too. Enchant is… being vastly different from earlier, but I can’t exactly say that’s alignment-indicative—just definitely notable.

I’m getting somewhat scummy vibes from Shea, but I’m unsure if I’m just, uh, reading this wrong—just the reaction to the D2 opening from Naerys feels weird in my gut and I can’t actually figure out why. I need to comb through the ISO and see if I can identify anything that would make me feel this way.

And Naerys feels… genuinely frustrated. I just feel like the woman’s getting piled on here, and I’m far less sure in my scumread as a result. I can’t say I townread her, but she’s approaching null.

[AnimatedWiz]

Quick hammering day one is a play I would never make as scum because it's naturally going to bring negative attention to myself. Same with placing at e-1. So look in the middle of the bandwagon where your scum vote is not as likely to draw attention and you're more likely to find a scum.

I can see what you’re saying. Out of the three you mentioned, is there one you think is scummier than the others?

[AnimatedWiz]

Hm, okay, upon looking back over Shea’s ISO, I think I see the issue.

I think I’m confusing the weird vibes I get when analyzing play really different from mine with actual scummy play. A lot of the posts and analysis he’s had don’t really line up with anything I would say, but not every player is like me (whether due to having more experience, or a different role, or just a different base personality). I gotta ask for some clarification on things in the future to make sure I’m right about that, but…

Back to townlean for now.

[AnimatedWiz]

I have to go to work very soon, but it's my last week so after the 11th I'll be able to be more present, since the only thing on my plate afterwards is setting up appointments with college advisors.

Oh, hopefully everything goes well!

[AnimatedWiz]

VOTE: Roden.

[AnimatedWiz]

Shrug.

VOTE: Smile

Care to share a reasoning?

[AnimatedWiz]

Shrug.

VOTE: Smile

Care to share a reasoning?

I don't like Smile.

Mm, noted.

[AnimatedWiz]

Based on that fight with Black, I’m like 90% sure that Roden is town

I think I’m running into the issue that over half the town has gotten really heated at one point or another already—it’s become less and less alignment-indicative with each frustrated post, at least for me.

Running out of people who haven’t gotten outwardly upset, y’know?

[AnimatedWiz]

Town

: Black, TheHoldSteady

Townlean

: SmileyDude1, usesPython, thestatusquo, BlackStar

Null

: Enchant

Scumlean

: Naerys, Hu Tao

Scum

: OutworldER, Roden

[AnimatedWiz]

Whenever I see Python interact with people, I get townie vibes—I feel like they’re trying to solve and be voices of reason. Whenever I analyze their behavior (especially in relation to their votes), I find it somewhat inconsistent and that, uh, makes me feel they could be scummy.

However, right now I’m choosing to weigh the townie vibes I’m getting higher than the inconsistent votes—I feel like a lot of us have had a lot of changing targets, but far less of us have been easy for me to intuit. I hope future logic will bear my intuition out.

[AnimatedWiz]

Oh, that’s so cool—after my college bowling class, my average was only, like, 80-something!

Also, a lot of arguing and frustration, I fear.

[AnimatedWiz]

Uh, let me go back through it really quickly to see if I’m forgetting anything.

[AnimatedWiz]

Black encouraged a quick wagon on Roden that I and Naerys hopped on—Naerys was primarily motivated by Roden saying that Black hasn’t voted for scum, despite her having voted for some of his scumreads.

Black and Roden then got really into it (like,

intense

), and Python and Naerys ended up defusing it and seeing it as TvT (Naerys, notably, went from voting Black, to Roden, to no one). I still scumread Roden—I see this as NAI, personally. I think BlackStar said something about the frustration making him townread Roden, but so many of us have gotten openly upset this game that I don’t think it’s actually a towntell at this point.

Oh, also, Python is really wanting to push Blackstar due to how he’s been reading Enchant over the game (especially after the quickhammer). I kind of see the logic, but at the same time I feel like Enchant is just so hard to read that it’s kind of hard to read into everyone’s reactions to their plays, y’know?

[AnimatedWiz]

Uh, quick edit: unsure if you saw this, but I also said I had trouble reading you and it made me scumread you some, but then I realized you just play really differently from me and I’m confusing the vibes of “different playstyle” with “scummy playstyle.”

[AnimatedWiz]

What do you scum read about me, Wiz? As far as I know it seems based on my predecessor. I'd like if you tried to interact with me in some way.

Hm, a lot is based on DE’s interactions with me, but some is also based on how you’ve interacted with the game up to this point—for example, your read of Naerys not lining up with your vote soon after was odd. I get weird vibes from your argument with Black D2 as well, but I can see that just be NAI due to the frustration.

You do make a good point in that I haven’t interacted with you much though, so I suppose I should fix that. I’d love to hear your new reads now that you’re caught up now.

[AnimatedWiz]

Based on yesterday I think it should be Naerys and then Wiz

Also, would love to get a readslist from you—I feel like you’ve been far more quiet this game and it’s not making me want to trust you.

[AnimatedWiz]

I think Roden's perspective during that exchange is telling though. He talked to me as if I was town up until 973 where he then calls me scum and then votes for me a couple of posts later. This doesn't really feel like town that has re-evaluated their read

Hm, the tone between that post and the one before it is really different. Goes from what sounds like upset at a fellow townie to what sounds like a suspicion of a deep scumread, and only in a minute’s time, too.

[AnimatedWiz]

Python's posts feel good for the most part but they're closer to null than townread. I feel this way about Shea too

I’d love to hear more about this—are there specific posts that ping you oddly, or any general patterns?

[AnimatedWiz]

Python's posts feel good for the most part but they're closer to null than townread. I feel this way about Shea too

I’d love to hear more about this—are there specific posts that ping you oddly, or any general patterns?

Eh, not really. It's just general vibes. I feel like they are both kinda selective in what they respond to/push, but that isn't really scummy, it just makes me think they are filtering their thoughts I guess? I think it just boils down to me not trusting them as players because they have burned me as scum before. They feel townie enough to where I don't currently want to fade either of them

Mm, I can definitely see what you mean. Oddly enough, it seems like your reading strategy is a flip of Shea’s—you have strong, sure scumreads with detailed cases, but your townreads are far less certain and elaborate. Not a bad thing either way, but just an interesting note.

P.S.: Realized I didn’t ask about why your Naerys read had changed to not being the highest-priority lim target. I know you had mentioned earlier in D2 thinking that flipping Enchant first would help sort Naerys, but you don’t seem as keen on going for Enchant either now.

[AnimatedWiz]

P.S.: Realized I didn’t ask about why your Naerys read had changed to not being the highest-priority lim target. I know you had mentioned earlier in D2 thinking that flipping Enchant first would help sort Naerys, but you don’t seem as keen on going for Enchant either now.

I would be ok with fading Enchant but it doesn't seem like many others agree with me there

As for Naerys I kinda got town pings from her interactions with Shea. I think her posting has gotten better as D2 has gone on and I liked her response to my self-meta question. This could still be scum but I think there are probably better options today

Mm, I’m not necessarily opposed to an Enchant flip, but there’s a decent selection of people I’d prefer to flip first, honestly—just don’t really have as much of a strong case on them comparatively.

I, uh, agree on Naerys—still could be scummy, but just better cases with others. As time goes on, I feel like her and Enchant might switch tiers for me.

…I do wish I could interact with OWER a bit more—I feel like hearing about how he read the beginning of D2 (especially about Roden, Shea, and you) would help solidify a case against or for him. As it stands, I feel like his D1 was rather scummy once the ball started rolling, but I wouldn’t like to rely on just that for an elimination, y’know?

[AnimatedWiz]

What personality has town Wiz then?

My only town game, which is my first one, is here. Uh, Hu Tao was there for the first day, and THS was there for the first two, so I think they might have some insight on how I’ve changed or stayed the same since then.

[AnimatedWiz]

Hot take: scum were off wagon and just silently letting it go through

Unsure if this was brought up earlier, but out of the five people off the Wartortle wagon, who do you think are the scumteam?

I know you scumread BlackStar for it, but that leaves me, Hu Tao, Roden, and THS in consideration for the other two members.

[AnimatedWiz]

…I do wish I could interact with OWER a bit more—I feel like hearing about how he read the beginning of D2 (especially about Roden, Shea, and you) would help solidify a case against or for him. As it stands, I feel like his D1 was rather scummy once the ball started rolling, but I wouldn’t like to rely on just that for an elimination, y’know?

I wish I could interact with you a bit more too but I woke up late today after a long night and I have to go to work in ~2 hours.

I have a wall-post saved up as a draft but posting it now would cause

discourse

and I would rather be around to actually be involved in that conversation than just watching people talk at me on my phone at work, so frankly I'm just gonna declare my unavailability today and come back tomorrow when I have the day off.

That’s totally fair—thanks for communicating!

[AnimatedWiz]

Based on yesterday I think it should be Naerys and then Wiz

Also, would love to get a readslist from you—I feel like you’ve been far more quiet this game and it’s not making me want to trust you.

Was I not quiet before as town? What changed?

In our previous game here, you were way more talkative and shared your thoughts freely, especially townreads. Here, you’ve only popped in quickly to say you think one or two people are scummy like once a day—you’ve literally posted half as much this game in the same post span (32 vs 65). The posts aiso aren’t as substantial generally, I think.

I know you are aware of how your involvement this game has been lower than usual, because of [post] viewtopic.php?p=13972324#p13972324[/post]. I feel like you’re actively trying to hide this game and not make waves, and that doesn’t seem like the towniest thing to do, y’know?

Also, still would love that readslist.

[AnimatedWiz]

Ah jeez, I messed up the post link.

P.S. I want to say that OWER is opportunistically hopping on the Roden wagon, but I’m unsure if I could actually prove that based on his post here. The analysis is solid, even if the base of the argument is stuff Black has said before, and the addition of the bit on how Roden only ever really defended himself instead of Wartortle is pretty interesting.

I’m going to put my misgivings to the side as conf bias for now and reassess once we hear more from OWER on this.

[AnimatedWiz]

BlackStar, I don’t think you’re wrong that Black is very limhungry, but she has been pretty keen to also defend townreads and such. Additionally, I don’t think pushing for an elimination is super scummy if she makes good arguments for the targets—I mean, we’re supposed to want the people we think are scummy to be eliminated, right?

I mean, it’s not like she denied wanting to eliminate people in her response to you in 924 (though I will say she didn’t technically confirm it either), and she was like this in our last game too—lots of “sharpness,” as Shea put it.

[AnimatedWiz]

No, she says if what you’re implying by her wanting to create a wagon is that she wants the day to be short,

that’s

not true—she’s debating the reasoning for her pushes, not that she has them.

[AnimatedWiz]

No, she says if what you’re implying by her wanting to create a wagon is that she wants the day to be short,

that’s

not true—she’s debating the reasoning for her pushes, not that she has them.

That is what I was implying and she just said a few posts ago that she doesn’t really care who we eliminate. OWER making a case that Black herself doesn’t even seem that excited about doesn’t seem like a good reason to hop on a wagon. Especially since she claims to scum read OWER. Why would you join a wagon with one of your top scum reads just like that?

And maybe it’s just me, but I only ever vote for the person I’m scum reading the most at the moment. Flipping around just based on what lim seems more likely to go through seems like a bad idea.

I mean, in context (1113 for reference), I feel like it’s clear that she is saying that out of her two top scumreads, she’s happy to get rid of either. I don’t feel like being a bit flexible about your vote is that bad an idea—don’t want to stay parked on your pie-in-the-sky top scumread if your 2nd top scumread has a wagon forming on them. After all, either one results in a top 2 scumread getting eliminated—this might just be a difference in our game strategy, though.

I… hm… I admit, I feel like if a top scumread joined my push, it would make me pause (like with I did with OWER), but I suppose you could always just view it as opportunistic bussing? Might as well use the scumteam’s vote to get rid of the scumteam, y’know?

Definitely will have to ponder that one, though—don’t want to go in with conf bias, but I don’t want to WIFOM myself to dizziness about it either.

P.S. Make sure to use the right word for eliminating—bad history with the other one.

[AnimatedWiz]

That’s E-3.

Four votes for Roden so far: Me, OWER, Black, and Roden (in order).

[AnimatedWiz]

BlackStar, I don’t think you’re wrong that Black is very limhungry, but she has been pretty keen to also defend townreads and such. Additionally, I don’t think pushing for an elimination is super scummy if she makes good arguments for the targets—I mean, we’re supposed to want the people we think are scummy to be eliminated, right?

I mean, it’s not like she denied wanting to eliminate people in her response to you in 924 (though I will say she didn’t technically confirm it either), and she was like this in our last game too—lots of “sharpness,” as Shea put it.

Again, I'm not pushing for an elimination here. Wagons are useful without getting all the way there

Ah, uh… I think I was holding the idiot ball again. I kind of just assumed the wagons were only for elimination instead of remembering that it forces claims and such.

Plus, you did ask the wagons to stop at 6 votes early on D2, so that lines up.

[AnimatedWiz]

Ah, uh… I think I was holding the idiot ball again. I kind of just assumed the wagons were only for elimination instead of remembering that it forces claims and such.

Not only that but it's useful to see who is willing to join the wagon and their reasonings for hopping on/staying off

You will never, ever catch me trying to rush the day as either alignment

Thanks for explaining—the patience and clarity is appreciated.

P.Edit: Python’s right about E-1 being 5 but it’s also really funny.

[AnimatedWiz]

Python, I fear y’all are going to have a lot of policy votes if you keep adding more conditions on.

[AnimatedWiz]

Python, I fear y’all are going to have a lot of policy votes if you keep adding more conditions on.

Why do you care?

1. Can’t do VCA on someone who policy votes a lot of different things.

2. It dilutes the limiting power of a policy vote—people won’t respect the vote if they know someone else will catch it soon after.

3. It’s kind of funny.

[AnimatedWiz]

Do you remember my statement that we will forget readlist from... Uh. Who was eliminated D1 again?

He never posted a full list after I asked. :/

The most recent one we have from him is 533.

[AnimatedWiz]

Hot take: d1 deadsheeping is dumb as hell cause if they were actually good at mafia they wouldn't be dead

Being good at reading and good at defending yourself are two separate skills—sometimes they correlate, and sometimes they don’t.

[AnimatedWiz]

I mean, but thats what I don't like about your ISO blackstar. You seem to be unwilling to push the game forward in any direction. It reminds of how scum look when they're worried that if they push the wrong person that they'll end up getting counterpushed or they can't think of anything to push so they fall back into the much safer pattern of pointing out slight flaws in things other people think rather than trying to advance their own thoughts.

Hm… I feel like BlackStar has been pushing

a lot

though—and often, he’s pushing back against people and their reads. He’s kind of in the trenches right now and consistently arguing with most of the rest of town, and I think that might be why it seems like he’s not progressing the game like some of the rest of us are.

After all, when the majority of the town is against you and your reads, I would imagine you have to choose between pushing your own stuff and countering theirs—doing both probably isn’t feasible for just one person with a life y’know?

[AnimatedWiz]

Annie, can I get you to switch over to the OWER wagon?

I’ve been considering the OWER wagon as a good second choice, but I’d rather hear Roden’s updated readlist before I decide to hop off my current wagon.

[AnimatedWiz]

pushing back against people and their reads != pushing your own thoughts/trying to solve the game.

I feel like that was entirely my point.

Yes, but my point was that he’s shared his reads, and he’s trying to not have us vote against that—I feel like he’s still trying to move the game in a direction that lines up with his reads, but just by pushing back against the current tide to gain any ground.

He’s shared his thoughts and given arguments for them too, even. I feel like his methodology for solving just might not be the same as yours, and that’s causing it to not resonate with you.

[AnimatedWiz]

Perhaps I’m just getting a little blinded by my previous reads here—I’m probably going to have to look back at my previous game with him and see how stuff has shifted between then and now.

But for now, my intuition says that BlackStar is town.

[AnimatedWiz]

Hm, in our last game, BlackStar was really good at reading, but wasn’t as skilled at defending himself—made him an appealing target for me to try to miselim.

BlackStar, could you give us a readslist? I feel like this could be really useful for us.

[AnimatedWiz]

I... hm. A lot has happened since I was last here, and I feel like stuff I had confidently assumed before is now in the air.

I mindmelded with Black early on, which is why I've been happy to openly work with her, but I am getting weird vibes off this latest conversation she was in. I don't feel like this side of her we just saw is incongruent with town!Black, but it does feel far less... collected and directed? Definitely a weird shift from her earlier this game (especially considering the sudden switch on Roden). I, uh, think I'll need to see how she bounces back to fully make my decision on whether this is just a bump in the road or a straight pitfall, but I need to make sure that my trust isn't blind, and that I'm not getting pocketed.

I just... I don't think that interaction was TvT—and that sucks because both are townreads for me. It felt weird to read over, since to me it felt like Shea was oversimplifying Black's arguments, but instead of defending herself Black was committing hard to a sudden switch on Shea (via OWER). It was just... I dunno how describe it, but it was

weird.

[AnimatedWiz]

I am… reluctant to fully commit, but I am, uh, willing to give this a try.

[AnimatedWiz]

Town

: SmileyDude1, usesPython, TheHoldSteady

Townlean

:

Black

,

BlackStar

, Naerys

Null

: Enchant

Scumlean

:

Thestatusquo

, OutWorldER

Scum

:

Hu Tao

, Roden

[AnimatedWiz]

Black

: While I can’t just blindly base everything on my initial mindmeld with Black, I think ignoring my strong feelings on her being town is foolish. I think her behavior in the argument was weird, but the rest of her game so far tracks with how she was in our previous one. She drops a tier, but I still find her far more likely to be a townie compared to Shea.

BlackStar

: He’s acting really similar to our previous game—he was limbait there, and I fear he’s limbait here as well. I feel confident in townleaning him for that reason, though I can’t say I agree with a good amount of his reads (which is worrying, to be honest). Quick note: he said in his previous game that he would imagine himself likely to bus his scummates, so consider that if a flip goes wild.

Thestatusquo

: I’ve found it near impossible to get a solid read on him for a good amount of the game (his pushes and solving nudged him up a tier for a while there). However, that lack of a solid read means I have to imagine him to be the scum in that argument—I just don’t have a detailed enough case to push him to the bottom tier, though.

Hu Tao

: Her silence feels deafening to me—unlike, say, OWER, she has been reluctant to share her thoughts or interact on other people’s terms. I find the lack of cooperation has made my read on her deteriorate over the course of the game, and I worry she’ll continue to sit on the backburner for the town until it’s too late.

[AnimatedWiz]

I was scum in my last game and he caught onto me early and would not let go—he was a townie we wanted to eliminate ASAP for that reason.

[AnimatedWiz]

What's the Smiley/THS case?

Smiley feels like he’s trying to solve and like he asks good questions with good analysis posted after—I’ve not really had too much reason to suspect him aside from mostly being quieter, but he still is actively trying to contribute to the game (just not as often as some other players).

THS seems like just like a townie that’s getting burnt a lot more than the rest of us—I’d like to see a bit more solving efforts from him (which is why he’s fallen slightly in my readslist), but the townie vibes are certainly there. Definitely more of an intuition-based read here.

[AnimatedWiz]

Kinda have this gut feeling that this is a losing gamestate. All the fights feel TvT and every time we push on the lurkers they give decent responses but there's also 0 town cohesion and half the playerlist is off doing their own thing

So how about everyone gives a lim pool of three and we'll consolidate from there?

Hu Tao, OWER, and Roden. I’m willing to compromise on my wagons of choice as long as there’s decent logic behind the other ones.

[AnimatedWiz]

VOTE: Hu Tao.

[AnimatedWiz]

Python, I fear y’all are going to have a lot of policy votes if you keep adding more conditions on.

Why do you care?

This is wiz acting as town

VOTE: ower

I'll go here for now since I don't think naerys or

wiz

happens

I think Hu Tao is saying that I’m faking a town act, not that I’m town. Confused me too when I first read that pair of posts, though.

[AnimatedWiz]

Also, do we all want to like… take a step away? I feel like we might all benefit from just relaxing and not thinking about the game for 24 hours—as much as I’d like for us all to win, I’d rather not win a hollow victory like this.

This game is supposed to be really fun together, but it feels like I’m one of the only people having fun.

[AnimatedWiz]

Okay, back from my day off of MafiaScum and it seems like stuff got weird after I left. I’ve never seen anyone retract a claim like that without it just being something like adding/removing a modifier, so I literally do not know why someone would do that (not that it’s a bad move, I just literally cannot predict the reasoning).

Roden trying to push the kill through like that seems like he’s trying to save his own behind by throwing Hu Tao to the sword—this could be conf bias, though, since it’s just vibes. After all, I’m still good with Hu Tao going since they haven’t actually shared the reads they say they generated from the claim reaction (apparently I’m not a scumread for them now).

P.Edit: Oh, didn’t see the E-1. I hope we’re right.

[AnimatedWiz]

VOTE: Hu Tao

The defense is too on the nose for me. Sorry.

What do you mean by this? This idiom always confuses me.

[AnimatedWiz]

It seemed...too convenient. Agreeing with me that Outworld is scum and that's why she wants to vote him and claiming "to get reactions". I just didn't get town vibes from it at all. Like you said, hopefully it's right.

Hm… she had already posted her scumread of OWER before your post… but never actually gave reasoning for it beyond perhaps 1379. I can see why it’s suspicious to see a new push like that from her—not much visible build-up on reads.

[AnimatedWiz]

Means we have to fill in the dots and assume stuff that might not be the case.

Which leads me to asking, if you’re still here with us, Hu Tao, that you shared your thoughts one last time to help us figure stuff out. Scum or townie, either works.

[AnimatedWiz]

I don't know. Town fake claimed Doctor in this very same game day one. It's not the gotcha Python and Roden are making it out to be.

I… literally don’t remember this? Wartortle claimed Vanilla Cop at first, so I don’t know who you could be talking about?

[AnimatedWiz]

Okay, double-checked, and not single use of “Doctor,” “Doc,” or “protective” was said before D2’s lack of nightkill. If you’re saying someone claimed that role in D1, it’s gotta be some kind of softclaim.

[AnimatedWiz]

My memory is terrible. I was thinking of Wartortle's claim as cop.

I can see that—it was kind of a weird fakeclaim, since it happened

after

the elim (likely to confuse the scum and generate content).

[AnimatedWiz]

We have no idea—does follow with the idea of there being a protective role, but who knows?

[AnimatedWiz]

It was, yes. I think Python is really trying to make some good points and seeing who benefits the least from a townflip—I think if we’re wrong and Hu Tao flips green, there’s a bit more weight behind Python’s theorizing since it happened before the reveal.

[AnimatedWiz]

I… am confused. I assumed either of the people who claimed power roles would be the nightkill target—especially the Macho Watcher.

[AnimatedWiz]

Python claimed a role that can protect themselves once, you claimed a role that couldn’t be protected at all—assuming no other information, it would be the default choice to kill the unprotectable role (especially if it’s something as powerful as Watcher).

Obviously, something is up if that didn’t happen.

[AnimatedWiz]

Can you all shut up.

Oh, do you have something you want to share? Happy to get more info!

[AnimatedWiz]

VOTE: AnimatedWiz

Why not Smiley?

These posts from right before the flip kind of felt like Wiz already knew that Hu Tao was town and he was setting things up for afterwards

Means we have to fill in the dots and assume stuff that might not be the case.

Which leads me to asking, if you’re still here with us, Hu Tao, that you shared your thoughts one last time to help us figure stuff out. Scum or townie, either works.

It was, yes. I think Python is really trying to make some good points and seeing who benefits the least from a townflip—I think if we’re wrong and Hu Tao flips green, there’s a bit more weight behind Python’s theorizing since it happened before the reveal.

Yeah, I can definitely see the logic behind that, especially since I was the one pushing the most for Hu Tao.

[AnimatedWiz]

I… have a theory about what happened with THS’s night abilities, but I don’t want to say anything until everyone claims.

[AnimatedWiz]

I’m a vanilla Townie.

[AnimatedWiz]

Thestatusquo looks suspicious due jailkeeping d1.
I am vanilla btw. Good night

Wait, what? THS was jailed N1, which seems to have actually saved Shea from being killed that night. I think you might’ve switched the acronyms up.

[AnimatedWiz]

Oh, sorry to keep you up—thought you’d see this in the morning. Sleep well!

[AnimatedWiz]

I am Investigator.

1. Roden. Medium/Janitor/Retributionist
2. SmileyDude1. Spy/Blackmailer/Jailor

Aw, this brought me back to my ToS days.

What is your actual role, though?

[AnimatedWiz]

I’m not sure if you agreeing to massclaim is really the issue here, Enchant—I think the issue is whether you think not claiming is worth the consequences of what people will assume about it.

[AnimatedWiz]

Totally fair response.

[AnimatedWiz]

So, this chain of events that supposedly happened night 1 is wild.

THS tries to shoot Shea, who BlackStar bodyguards, but BlackStar doesn’t die because Smiley jailed THS.

I agree with OWER—if I recall correctly, wasn’t this game advertised in sign-ups as simple? This is way too complicated to match up with that.

[AnimatedWiz]

Regardless of whether this game being described as simple is meaningful or not, my point about this chain of events on n1 being likely too complex to be true stands, and so does your point about having too many protective roles to be true.

[AnimatedWiz]

So, as far as we know right now, all results and claims don’t directly contradict each other—a lot of protectives, which is suspicious, but not a direct contradiction.

[AnimatedWiz]

I… hm… I do find it quite convenient that the Bodyguard did target two people who were already protected from danger by the Jailkeeper (who claimed before he did).

However, I feel like if BlackStar would tell a lie, it would be something a bit less miraculous as to be less suspicious, right? It’s weird, but I feel it’s honest for that’s reason.

[AnimatedWiz]

I, uh, think I might have gotten confused what made a game simple in the old system—I realize now what y’all mean.

For example, in my first game the most complicated role was a Werewolf Neighbor Disloyal Combined Mailman Rolestopper… and in this one, it seems it might just be a Macho 2-Shot Watcher—definitely less complex.

[AnimatedWiz]

Also, um, I think I’m having a bit of a flare-up, so I’m going to go V/LA for the next 72 hours to recuperate. I’ll still be here every once in a while, but not as regularly active as before—don’t want to overtax myself and make it any worse.

[AnimatedWiz]

BlackStar, if I could ask, why did your read on Smiley change between 530 and 992? You never mentioned wanting to vote for Smiley during the beginning of D2, even when you responded to Enchant voting for him in 848.

[AnimatedWiz]

Also, BlackStar is at E-3 currently.

[AnimatedWiz]

I could see BlackStar and Enchant as partners—how he reacted to their posts early in D2 felt really weird to me, but if that’s the case then I’m unsure of which of my scumreads would fit into that third slot—Roden’s slot has interacted with OWER far more suspiciously than with these other two, and I think that interaction speaks to Roden and OWER being partnered instead.

Also, I think that’s fair on me, Black—to be honest, you might be sensing me losing some trust in you. You keep on getting into weird situations that I have trouble reading the angle you’re coming from in, despite the town vibes I get from you elsewhere—I feel like you’re relatively easy for me to read except when you get into these confrontations with other people who don’t seem to agree with you, and it shakes my trust when I don’t feel like you answer it the best.

You’re still a townread, but it’s just… you’re not locktown for me right now.

[AnimatedWiz]

BlackStar, if I could ask, why did your read on Smiley change between 530 and 992? You never mentioned wanting to vote for Smiley during the beginning of D2, even when you responded to Enchant voting for him in 848.

I just looked at the votes at the end of D1 and tried to decide who seemed the most like scum. I looked at the people off the wagon first because I figured at least one of the scum would've been off of it and since there were fewer people off the wagon, it might be easier to narrow down who was suspicious.

I was town reading THS and Roden, so that left you and Hu Tao. Hu Tao seemed pretty much the same to me as the last game we played together where she was town, but she wasn't posting that much so I felt a little bit wary of her. That just left you and I didn't see much from your iso that would make me want to trust you. I didn't want to start tunneling you and being a jerk though, so I kept looking at everyone else.

I feel like your reasoning here for voting me is really off from what you’ve stated previously about your reads on me—in the past, you said it was about how I seemed on the fence, like I was looking for group approval, and that I was acting similarly to my previous scum game. If it’s now just process of elimination out of those not on the Wartortle wagon, I feel like the story isn’t matching up properly.

Moreover, I’m unsure why you’re so concerned about your push on me when that’s not really been addressed at all today—it feels to me like you’re trying to preemptively defend against that line of questioning. It feels… performative?

[AnimatedWiz]

Can one of the townies on BlackStar's wagon unvote? Just temporarily. If Annie is scum here then he's gearing up to vote there and BlackStar will just hammer and end the day short

Do you think I’m a partner with BlackStar?

[AnimatedWiz]

Can one of the townies on BlackStar's wagon unvote? Just temporarily. If Annie is scum here then he's gearing up to vote there and BlackStar will just hammer and end the day short

Do you think I’m a partner with BlackStar?

I think you could be yeah. I'm less confident in this than OWER/Naerys but I don't want to risk it

Are you planning on voting for BlackStar?

No, honestly. I don’t want D3 to end quickly, and I also feel like other slots have a better reasons behind them—the OWER/Roden partner dynamic is more convincing for me right now.

[AnimatedWiz]

Why did THS drop to null then if your TR was so strong there

He hammered Hu Tao and then both he and Wiz immediately seemed doubtful about if Hu Tao was actually scum, so I was suspicious

Doubtful, no. Wanting to get the readslist from Hu Tao I had asked for repeatedly throughout the game? Yes.

[AnimatedWiz]

Also, I would like to posit the theory that we *do* have a Mafia Roleblocker, and that a claimed VT (Roden or OWER, especially) has that role. It would likely be a way to balance out the many protective roles—perhaps partnered with a (gated?) Cop of some sort to get the info about who they should target

[AnimatedWiz]

Also, I would like to posit the theory that we

do

have a Mafia Roleblocker, and that a claimed VT (Roden or OWER, especially) has that role. It would likely be a way to balance out the many protective roles—perhaps partnered with a (gated?) Cop of some sort to get the info about who they should target?

EBWOP (for proper style).

[AnimatedWiz]

Also, I would like to posit the theory that we *do* have a Mafia Roleblocker, and that a claimed VT (Roden or OWER, especially) has that role. It would likely be a way to balance out the many protective roles—perhaps partnered with a (gated?) Cop of some sort to get the info about who they should target

My only issue with this is that OWER and Roden both claimed VT without knowing who I watched. So if one of them is the RB and they blocked someone (THS?) then it would be pretty risky not to claim something that targets people

I still think OWER being untrackable or something like that makes more sense

If I recall correctly, the only normal modifier that would have that power is Ascetic, and the only normal role is Commuter—either would be easy claims to make if they were true and town. I feel like Commuter is really, really uncommon, and Ascetic would be kind of useless in a town with two very gated investigative roles—such a low chance of either role doing anything but blocking protection, right?

[AnimatedWiz]

Additionally, I feel like there’s little reason to hide either of those options, as neither would be too suspicious on their own—but there is a reason to hide being a Roleblocker, as it’s not generally an Town-aligned role.

[AnimatedWiz]

Ah, thanks—I was focused on the roles that OWER could have that would prevent himself from being tracked, but a Rolestopper or Alien could be possible.

I just don’t think either of those two is likely to be here due to them

also

being protective roles, y’know? Additionally, since both aren’t more common with Mafia, I don’t think there’s a reason to not claim such role.

[AnimatedWiz]

Python do you have a read on Naerys

Did it look like BlackStar lim was inevitable to you? Cause to us it did and I don't really see the point of stepping off the bus to be the first person to suggest pushing a VT today

I would like to clarify that Naerys isn’t the first one to suggest going after a VT today—that was me in 1770 and 1788.

[AnimatedWiz]

My currently scumteam is Roden/OWER/BlackStar, and in that order.

[AnimatedWiz]

My currently scumteam is Roden/OWER/BlackStar, and in that order.

I don't get why Roden is so high on that list

His slot’s interactions with me early on in D1 made me incredibly suspicious of the a lot—the arguments felt disingenuous and like it was less about pushing his own theories as much as it was about trying to push me onto the chopping block. OWER jumped on that wagon with even more spurious logic, and notably BlackStar was also on there too.

I think I was the miselim target for the scumteam for the beginning of D1—that my hasty read of Naerys was an easy argument for pushing me.

Additionally, the way Roden’s been playing the game, with a lot of lurking mixed with quick bits of AtE—not to mention an open unwillingness to contribute
—all strengthen that point. Roden isn’t giving any illusion of solving with his posts, and the fact that he hasn’t even finished that initial catch-up readslist or shared more than tiny little nuggets of thoughts makes it clear to me that he’s scum.

[AnimatedWiz]

VOTE: Roden.

[AnimatedWiz]

I… have a theory about what happened with THS’s night abilities, but I don’t want to say anything until everyone claims.

What was this about

Ooh, thanks for reminding me! It was just my theory about there being a Mafia Roleblocker instead of the other possibilities—when I said this, Smiley had already said he was the cause of the N1 action not going through, so only the N2 action was left.

[AnimatedWiz]

I think part of the issue is that the majority of us have anime-style avatars—I even have Wooloo in mine. Only Smiley and OWER are safe, I think—Enchant debatably.

[AnimatedWiz]

Not as bad as genishin impact

Hu Tao’s dead and

still

catching strays, oh my god.

[AnimatedWiz]

I’m more partial to eliminating BlackStar before UsesPython—I understand the suspicion of their spot, but his claim and the way he’s responded to the pressure is far more scummy to me. I think you might be getting distracted by a new scumread and forgetting your stronger one, Black.

[AnimatedWiz]

I’m more partial to eliminating BlackStar before UsesPython—I understand the suspicion of their spot,

but his claim and the way he’s responded to the pressure is far more scummy to me.

I think you might be getting distracted by a new scumread and forgetting your stronger one, Black.

Elaborate

I explained some in 1760, but I’ll share more.

In 1734, when asked to share a readslist you gave one from the end of D2, and said you’d catch up and give a new one. Soon after, you say that you’re not really able to use the mech talk and how people respond to it to formulate reads, essentially absolving yourself of having to give a new readslist.

You’ve also been a bit quieter than in our last game, as Black mentioned in 1731—as if you’re trying to squeak by as our attention gets pulled elsewhere. I feel like Python’s far more active and trying to solve—both defending themselves and giving their alternate ideas. Out of the two most likely possibilities for the lack of nightkill (Python was jailed while attempting to NK, or you attempted to NK a jailed Python), it feels far likelier that you’re the scum.

[AnimatedWiz]

Commuter doesn't make sense in the setup and if OWER is Ascetic then that's even more reason to have then do the kill

This is a good point—I think that if there was a Mafia Ascetic, they would be chosen to kill due to you claiming Watcher, Black.

[AnimatedWiz]

Like what are y'all even doing right now

We’re trying to figure out mech, mostly—have any insights?

[AnimatedWiz]

If BlackStar flips town I think I'll be somewhat confident in Python/Annie/x

I don't like the way Annie is pushing for a Roden lim despite admitting that there's probably only two explanations for the lack of NK (python!scum or BS!scum)

It feels like he knows BS will flip town and he's trying to not be on the BS wagon with his scumbuddy(s)

I also think if I'm right about scum thinking they could misfade me if they keep me alive, Annie's behavior towards me fits the bill. He's casted doubt on my claim and moved me down a tier today

So yeah, if BS flips town then we can fade a red python, and then fade a red Annie after. If BS flips wolf then Python is locktown obviously and we can figure out what to make of Annie then

This… doesn’t make sense?


I moved you down a tier in 1335 on D2, not on D3.

I’ve also never casted doubt on your claim—in fact, I based my reasoning on BlackStar on you telling the truth. After all, if we assumed you’re lying about being a Watcher, then we have no reason to assume there’s a definitely a scum between BlackStar and Python (since we have no one to confirm BlackStar and Smiley targeting Python N2). None of my reasoning follows that universe, and I’m unsure why you think it does.

Finally, I’ve never actually campaigned for people to vote for you—the lowest you’ve ever been for me is a high townlean. What makes you believe otherwise?

[AnimatedWiz]

Like, I can totally respect if the vibes you’re picking up off of me are weird or you just feel more confident in other players at this point, but if you go through my ISO you can see that there’s not evidence for the reasoning you gave.

[AnimatedWiz]

I’m voting Roden because I know that if I jump on the BlackStar wagon, it could cause the the day to end early. I also just still do not like the vibes of Roden’s posting—it feels like fluff and he’s actively pushing for BlackStar’s elim, which makes me hesitate on it. I know one of BlackStar and Python is scum, but I’d really rather not sacrifice a townie too if we don’t have to (AKA I’d like to get it right the first time).

And also, I feel like if I wanted to set up for an elim on you, I’d just be quicker and more direct about it—I feel like a lot of my turnarounds on people like BlackStar have been far faster and more obvious. And what benefit do I have to eliminating someone who considered me locktown? It’s way better for scum!me to just play as your lackey and let you consider me town while I try to guide you to miselimming other people.

[AnimatedWiz]

However… I do see your logic—I see how, if I was that kind of player, those would be great ways to prep a switching of allegiances. I don’t think you’re wrong for noting them as odd, but if I could just be very frank here:

I would like to trust you and for you to trust me. I feel like you’ve had the least amount of posts that make me pause out of the other players here, and I do really feel like I can read you better than the rest. I feel like we have similar reads and similar theories about a lot of players, and I truly did mindmeld with you in the middle of D1.

If all of that matches your experience, I think we can try to become the basis of an actual towncore,

together

.

If this isn’t the case for you, I get it—just please consider the pros and cons before you starting pushing me if we’re wrong on BlackStar here.

[AnimatedWiz]

However… I do see your logic—I see how, if I was that kind of player, those would be great ways to prep a switching of allegiances. I don’t think you’re wrong for noting them as odd, but if I could just be very frank here:

I would like to trust you and for you to trust me. I feel like you’ve had the least amount of posts that make me pause out of the other players here, and I do really feel like I can read you better than the rest. I feel like we have similar reads and similar theories about a lot of players, and I truly did mindmeld with you in the middle of D1.

If all of that matches your experience, I think we can try to become the basis of an actual towncore,

together

.

If this isn’t the case for you, I get it—just please consider the pros and cons before you starting pushing me if we’re wrong on BlackStar here.

Ok. I won't lockscum you if BS is town and python is scum

Thank you.

[AnimatedWiz]

What is BlackStar at right now, by the way? Still E-3 or E-2?

[AnimatedWiz]

Gotcha. Hopefully we’ll get a few more days before we make an actual decision to eliminate.

[AnimatedWiz]

I could see BlackStar and Enchant as partners—how he reacted to their posts early in D2 felt really weird to me, but if that’s the case then I’m unsure of which of my scumreads would fit into that third slot—Roden’s slot has interacted with OWER far more suspiciously than with these other two, and I think that interaction speaks to Roden and OWER being partnered instead.

???

What suspicious interactions??

I think I misspoke, and that’s on me. The way OWER hopped on my wagon made me suspicious—I feel like since then you’ve both kept a wide berth from each other, which is notable to me. You both are rather quiet though, so I suppose I can’t really prove it’s not just a factor of that, though.

[AnimatedWiz]

tbh there's probably a roleblocker so with this mislim we lose our clear

What do you mean?

[AnimatedWiz]

Updated RL:
Solid Town: Smiley, Enchant, Anima
Leaning Town:Thestatusquo
Null:Black,Roden, THS
Leaning Scum:OWER,BlackStar
Solid Scum:Python

If I could ask, why are Enchant and I so high for you?

[AnimatedWiz]

VOTE: BlackStar. We’ve had enough time—I think we should focus on figuring out which of two the main possibilities for N2 is true by eliminating either Python or BlackStar.

[AnimatedWiz]

E-1.

[AnimatedWiz]

That’s fair—for the last day or so, I just thought about what you said here:

Gotcha. Hopefully we’ll get a few more days before we make an actual decision to eliminate.

Is there anything in particular you are hoping to get out of a few more days

And realized that, if I continue to let the day drag on, there is a decent chance that some of us will get talked out of eliminating inside of the pool of Python and BlackStar. I can wait to get more information on everyone’s positions and interactions, but it’s not worth the possibility of us losing sight of the best mechanical elimination here.

Plus, Shea recently said his two cents on the topic, which means everyone’s had a recent part in the conversation—I figured that was a good place to end it.

[AnimatedWiz]

And company? Who are you thinking are my partners?

You claimed it could be BlackStar earlier, and I know Python’s also pushing for the elimination… but they wouldn’t make sense with this.

[AnimatedWiz]

Ugh, I feel like all my reads this game aside from the one about Black have been so off. I need to reread the game and see how stuff progresses.

VOTE: UsesPython.

P.Edit: I do think we should consider the possibility of Black being killed to make me look bad, but I understand my argument is pretty much just WIFOM.