Large Normal 246: Game Over

[Dunnstral]

I claim miller

[Dunnstral]

I had a feeling there would be multiple millers this game

[Dunnstral]

Gamma and Black probably town

Gamma has done what so far?

[Dunnstral]

Gamma and Black probably town

Gamma has done what so far?

Why not the same amount of puzzlement at both?

Black had posted more.

Gamma and Black probably town

Gamma has done what so far?

It's a meta read based partly on mini open 893

Can you explain it?

Anyone want to start a wagon?

VOTE: Duunstral
Voting the miller

If Dunn is a neighbour then I could see the miller claim coming from a traitor
But for now I think Dunn's town

This speculation is really random and it's hard to imagine you think any of this is likely

[Dunnstral]

Gamma and Black probably town

Gamma has done what so far?

There a reason you singled me out?

Same reason I gave when the first 3 people questioned me.

[Dunnstral]

It seems more believable than bringing up neighbors and traitors to me.

[Dunnstral]

Gamma and Black probably town

Gamma has done what so far?

Why not the same amount of puzzlement at both?

I like this
You can be town too, for now

The post you are referring to is in response to me, so thinking we are the same slot would mean your reason for thinking Dave is town does not make sense

[Dunnstral]

I belive Dunn and ssbm's claim. Unless the small chance they are scum together or scum informed of miller's in this game. Either way, I wouldn't want them today at the very least. If there are actual millers, there is likely a way to confirm that somehow regardless.

What would I need to be informed about to claim miller as mafia?

[Dunnstral]

VT

I understand why people claim miller early on, but why throw out a VT claim on page 1? I'm coming to this site mostly from a background where claiming was against the rules, so I would love to hear how claiming this helps the town.

So scum will not target me and I can last till end game. I believe in myself to find scum as long as I'm alive long enough. Now I just need to be towny enough to not be voted out. I've eliminated half of the work.

I think Hu Tao was just joking with the VT claim

Nope. I'm VT

This is nonsense

[Dunnstral]

I belive Dunn and ssbm's claim. Unless the small chance they are scum together or scum informed of miller's in this game. Either way, I wouldn't want them today at the very least. If there are actual millers, there is likely a way to confirm that somehow regardless.

What would I need to be informed about to claim miller as mafia?

That there are multiple miller's in this game? I'm not sure. Just trying to think of a scenario

Yes but I'm trying to get you to articulate why I would need to be informed about there being another miller in order to be fake claiming miller here.

[Dunnstral]

Davesaz, Elements, Hu Tao, and Dunnstral I'm fairly familiar with and can kind of tell if they're Scum.

👀

[Dunnstral]

Gamma and Black probably town

Gamma has done what so far?

Why not the same amount of puzzlement at both?

I like this
You can be town too, for now

...

...I don't recall you answering Dave's question.

Dave hasn't asked me a question?
Unless this is a joke about me getting Dave and Dunn confused in which case I have now

God damn it.

That was directed at Dunn.

I've answered this. It might have been the same question from a different player.

I had a feeling there would be multiple millers this game

What makes you say this?

Me rolling miller in a large and having seen an uptick of multiple miller games to try to cause discordance.

[Dunnstral]

He left the site under unfortunate circumstances iirc so I think he wishes to maintain distance from those past issues but for me, the constant questions about what ratios of scum in a game make sense just make it harder to not think of that since I always process that I believe his main knew such things which ofc brings me back to thing about his main

Random Nurse asked one question about the ratio of town to mafia. Framing it as constant questions seems disingenuous to me.

Why pay mind to a VT claim during RvS with 10 years on?

Because most of my mafia career was on sites where roleclaiming was strictly forbidden and would get you modkilled instantly. So this is my second game with claiming allowed and it's... weird. Especially a VT claim so early. If you are a VT, you've helped the mafia target the power roles. If you are lying, you will destroy your credibility later on. I just don't get it.

Yes that claim is weird and not what we usually expect to see.

I've also been in a lot of games that Random Nurse was in a the start, my RVS vote on him is basically because I knew he wasn't going to show.

VOTE: Celebloki

It feels strange to me that nobody else took issue with this for the same reason I did. Guillotina voted here but not for the same reason.

The issue I have with this post is it reveals that Celebloki wanted a 'safe' RVS vote. Who but scum wants that?

Who but scum even thinks "I know this guy isnt going to show so I'll vote him in RVS"

If you're doing this as town you can just not vote. This is scum trying to fit in during RVS and now that we're out of it he felt comfortable enough to admit it.

He slipped imo

It is weird but don't see how it is scum behavior and slipping. I think town can be frustrated and vote there.

[Dunnstral]

Gamma and Black probably town

Gamma has done what so far?

Why not the same amount of puzzlement at both?

Black had posted more.

For Random Nurse. I did respond to Dave.

[Dunnstral]

What's the basis of scum!Dunn?

You caught me, that was the one read that was 80% fake

the reason for the 20% probably has to do more with his playstyle than his alignment, but I just felt his posts had a tone which doesn't feel towny to me.

This is a weird post. Acknowledges it is based on playstyle and is very vague... it doesn't actually say or explain anything.

I think Broccoli's entrance into the thread felt very nice. I like it personally. Trying to figure out why people are wolfreading Celeb if people could give me a hand with that it'd be lovely. The person that has the lowest points on my chart seems to be TR so it is just likely I am incorrect. The pace of this game is somehow both casual in dialect and yet really hard to process.

Who has the lowest points on your chart?

[Dunnstral]

Playerlist:
Gamma Emerald
Celebloki
Naerys
Guillotina
Keyleth
TimmerRC
Elements

Posting this for myself to look up later. List of people I have suspicions on for one reason or another.

Towny

[Dunnstral]

He left the site under unfortunate circumstances iirc so I think he wishes to maintain distance from those past issues but for me, the constant questions about what ratios of scum in a game make sense just make it harder to not think of that since I always process that I believe his main knew such things which ofc brings me back to thing about his main

Random Nurse asked one question about the ratio of town to mafia. Framing it as constant questions seems disingenuous to me.

It’s not just this game that made me say that

The rest of us have no context for what you are talking about then.

This is a weird post. Acknowledges it is based on playstyle and is very vague... it doesn't actually say or explain anything.

My kind sir, let me explain:
I think your tone is one that comes more often than random from scum. Probably like 60% of the time. I'm referring to, specifically, the complete lack of interest in any fluff and the overly trying hard attitude. Still, it's possible it's just your playstyle. I don't really care because I don't have any other reason to scumread you right now. K.

This feels manipulative

Manipulative: serving or intended to control or influence others in an artful and often unfair or selfish way

I fail to see how calling you town over not wanting to do what I hoped you would do is somehow an attempt to control or influence you. Unless you think I am trying to manipulate you into NOT being in a town core with Elements and me, which is frankly preposterous (I like it!)

I don't agree on this reasoning being a good indicator of mafia.

I would like to propose a plan:

Every person list 2-4 people they are sure are town with higher than 90% certainty.

Then we make a pool of 4-5 people who never get voted today.

Then we just wagon a random person who's not in the pool, and repeat the same tomorrow. If the reads are accurate, that gives 33% chance to hit scum each day, or about 60% chance to to succeed on either.

My 2 are Gamma and Nurse btw.

I disagree with this plan.

[Dunnstral]

Elements is a champion baffler for sure.

I'm not inclined to vote for the millers. I think I agree with Gamma's take.

trivial, not AI

I'm not sure. Dunn's claim felt like a joke with it being the first post of the game. Kyouko's feels more real but I'm not familiar enough with her to tell if it's coming from scum

I feel Duun's claim is genuine, millers often claim miller in their opening posts. Duun's miller claim feels straight up, unlikely that mafia plays this directly. Kyouko feels real/potentially opportunistic, shielding herself behind the initial miller claim if she is mafia

VOTE: ssbm_Kyouko

Kyouko claimed miller in her opening post too, it seems unfair to say her claim is illegitimate just because Dunn got to the game first. Not everyone can have the opening post of a game.

I could count this as a post.

VT

I understand why people claim miller early on, but why throw out a VT claim on page 1? I'm coming to this site mostly from a background where claiming was against the rules, so I would love to hear how claiming this helps the town.

So scum will not target me and I can last till end game. I believe in myself to find scum as long as I'm alive long enough. Now I just need to be towny enough to not be voted out. I've eliminated half of the work.

You understand why it's generally anti-town to openly claim VT though, right?

True but how does it progress the game?

It seems like some people are being overly-critical, but maybe it's just people eager to get the game out of an RVS mindset.

Does this progress the game?

And I guess follow-up question, why do you think Kyouko voted me and quoted 217?

I'd have to look at 217 to know whether this is related to RN or not, but suspect it is.

I don't think "it doesn't progress the game" is a very strong indicator of mafia here

[Dunnstral]

Playerlist:
Gamma Emerald
Celebloki
Naerys
Guillotina
Keyleth
TimmerRC
Elements

Posting this for myself to look up later. List of people I have suspicions on for one reason or another.

Towny

Really?

Yes because mafia don't tend to call a lot of people suspicious at once, IMO.

[Dunnstral]

Towny: ssbm_Kyouko, Black, Broccoli Quest 2, Elements, Gamma Emerald, Hu Tao, Guillotina, Keyleth, Random Nurse
Null: Cat Scratch Fever, Naerys, TimmerRC
Scummy: davesaz, Celebloki, Andresvmb, KawaiiKame

[Dunnstral]

640 bothered me because it was so "mediator-ish" without really adding anything thoughtful. I think we could all see both sides, even if personally we would agree with Gamma or with BQ2: Electric Boogaloo. I don't think it's hard to see that Gamma felt the behavior was manipulative and also that BQ2 did not mean it in that way (or at least says he didn't, which feeds more into it feeling manipulative to Gamma)
And it felt like he had not posted in a while so I went back to see when he posted last and what happened.

So since it's apparent what the situation is, why post at all? 640 feels like a long post about... nothing.

And I didnt remember dave posting recently so I thought "hmm, I'm going to go back and check what has happened between 640 and the last time dave posted because that seems like a scummy "I'm not lurking" post to me. So I did... and while checking when he last posted I read Dave's ISO. It's mostly shading Keyleth, but not trying to start any pressure directly on her.

I think dave is slitherin' rn
VOTE: davesaz

No bloops

VOTE: ssbm_kyouko
I disapprove of anti-bloops too. No intentional pagetops.

Towny: ssbm_Kyouko, Black, Broccoli Quest 2, Elements, Gamma Emerald, Hu Tao, Guillotina, Keyleth, Random Nurse
Null: Cat Scratch Fever, Naerys, TimmerRC
Scummy: davesaz, Celebloki, Andresvmb, KawaiiKame

VOTE: Dunnstral

Are you openly voting for anyone who suspects you?

681 is weird because it's written out like an rvs vote but it seems clear you voted there because they suspected you.

[Dunnstral]

681 is weird because it's written out like an rvs vote

I'm slapping people who intentionally pagetop.

This is at least the 3rd game I've done that since hiatus.

OK. So what made you vote for me?

[Dunnstral]

davesaz, do you remember 4 hours ago when you made this post?

Is there uh, anything I can do to help dave?

Quote things and say what you think about them would be a good start. More than just like or don't like. For me to evaluate your alignment (or anyone's) I need to know if what you say makes sense given the events, and that's pretty well impossible without a fair amount of because clauses.

In light of this post, do you think it is fair to say that you are not following your own standards for others as written above?

[Dunnstral]

Towny: ssbm_Kyouko, Black, Broccoli Quest 2, Elements, Gamma Emerald, Hu Tao, Guillotina, Keyleth, Random Nurse
Null: Cat Scratch Fever, Naerys, TimmerRC
Scummy: davesaz, Celebloki, Andresvmb, KawaiiKame

[Dunnstral]

My bad :oops:

Yes I scumread Davesaz and I believe that is what prompted them to vote for me.

When asking them their reasons for voting me they replied in a vague way to make it seem coincidental.

I am pointing out that their response does not fit with what they expect other people to do as they wrote in 693. I'd equate what they wrote to "like or don't like" rather than using because clauses to explain what they mean. They are being inconsistent in how they apply they reasoning.

So why is that? The way I see it, either they simply don't hold themselves to the same standard they expect from others, in which case this is not a smoking gun, and they could be either town or mafia. The other possibility is that once questioned about the reason for their vote, they lied about it and wasn't able to give supporting information, as it is not a real thought process and also not something they thought to fake ahead of time; hence the vague response which is at odds with what they said earlier.

[Dunnstral]

but when town you tend to push a lot of questionable theories that make very little sense.

Are you referring to this post?

[Dunnstral]

So. I know you didn't like that when I posted it, but are you aware that in hindsight, It turned out that my theory was correct?

I wrote that between two replacements, one had received their initial role pm and then manually replaced out, rather than both replacements being due to not picking up any pms. One of those slots happened to be mafia, and there is a record of them posting in their pt in between the two pms.

My point is you're framing me as someone who proposes theories that

don't make sense

. However, when I linked you to a

theory that was correct

, you say that it is an example of what you are talking about. You did have a seemingly strong personal dislike of my post at the time, I'm perhaps sensing a personal bias here. I don't suppose you are saying that I open up every town game with a theory?

[Dunnstral]

I'm referring to, specifically, the complete lack of interest in any fluff and the overly trying hard attitude.

What I am saying is that I disagree with this reasoning, both in general and when applied to me.

[Dunnstral]

Question, Dunn: Why do you TR me then if you disagree with everything I said so far?

You are giving explanations for your thoughts that are believable. Disagreeing with you does not mean you are mafia.

[Dunnstral]

So. I know you didn't like that when I posted it, but are you aware that in hindsight, It turned out that my theory was correct?

I wrote that between two replacements, one had received their initial role pm and then manually replaced out, rather than both replacements being due to not picking up any pms. One of those slots happened to be mafia, and there is a record of them posting in their pt in between the two pms.

My point is you're framing me as someone who proposes theories that

don't make sense

. However, when I linked you to a

theory that was correct

, you say that it is an example of what you are talking about. You did have a seemingly strong personal dislike of my post at the time, I'm perhaps sensing a personal bias here. I don't suppose you are saying that I open up every town game with a theory?

I would dislike that specific approach (doing any kind of reads based on whether people flake upon seeing role pm) coming from anyone.

There is more nuance to the meta than a single example can convey. The technique I'm trying to use goes roughly like: player does things that I don't like; I scumread them; they're usually town when this happens and scum when it doesn't; I start looking for an absence of things I don't like. I have no idea whether this is going to work or not. It only applies to people I'm always getting spectacularly wrong.

Let me guess, you won't provide any examples on your own?

[Dunnstral]

But you're voting for me.

[Dunnstral]

I have to wonder what is on the top of your list of things to do this game, davesaz.

[Dunnstral]

Guillo Bam and Aid

What's that?

Very glad you asked.

The Guillo BAM and AID technique is the process in which everyone has to earn my townread every day as opposed to secretly giving you a score high enough to towncore you for the rest of the game based on your performance on a specific day.


Pros: Keeps the game dynamic
Removes the possibility of scum buddying me once to ride on my favor forever.
It catches deepwolves.
Makes me unpredictable and mafia cant plan around it.

Cons: Very difficult to build a towncore this way.
Builds a level of distrust amongst the actual town as it could be seen as scum keeping the PoE wide instead of narrowing it down.

I also like this idea, I find I often town read someone sub-consciously too often on D1 and have had it backfire (been pocketed). Recently, I have found that I've needed to reset and throw out any town reads I had on subsequent days in case I was pocketed. At first I thought you were being a little bit LAMISTy, but for now I am content that you're coming from a town motivation. I might have to borrow and properly credit this strategy as well.


Conversely, this is also why I am now dubious of people that like to make town blocks on D1. Unless they are masons I just don't understand how anyone can fully trust anyone D1. I've been stung too many times that I only ever lean towards town on some people D1.

...

@Gamma listen I really don't care who or what you vote. Not being in a block is not a threat. A block is a group of people who

trust

each other and are willing to cooperate, and then vote together. If there's no trust then there's no block, it's as simple as that.

...

The operative word being trust. Can you really expect to gain actual trust on D1 outside of a Mason type situation? How can anyone reasonably, comfortably join a town block and say they trust the others in the town block? If someone on D1 says they trust others, I'd find that very suspicious.

I like this post

[Dunnstral]

I find it hard to believe that Hu Tao thinks Guillo's ISO is entirely about them unless Hu Tao is hyper-aware of Guillo's pressure because Hu Tao, as scum, is nervous about town!Guillo catching them here.

You show that Guillotina's posts are largely not about Hu Tao and that Hu Tao is mistaken here, but I am not seeing th is as scum myself. Saying they are hyper-aware because they are scum is not something I find convincing.

[Dunnstral]

Okay so my solid TR are: Dave,Black,Broccoli,Nurse
Kyou the miller - My read isnt as solid here.I feel i disagree with their dave SR. I feel like dave is doing a decent town play here and i have to wonder what could be Kyous motivation to SR dave. On the other side my gut tells me that Kyou is trying to solve the game. So i am at null here.


Suspects: Hu Tao - Unlike Guillotina their vote on me feels off. She isnt trying to get more posts from me, she just took a comfortable seat from which she posts some witty remarks.
Kawaii - i need more from this slot
Dunn the miller-He kind of vanished, it would be neat if he posted some thoughts of his.

Gut townreading this post

[Dunnstral]

I don't

b

elieve the claim at all. I also don't believe for a second that Hu Tao thought she was actually hammered so the claim itself was no way a twilight-esque spew. It was a calculated gambit.

I think this is town regardless of Hu Tao's alignment

[Dunnstral]

Can someone explain the voting mechanics this game? And anything else weird about the game.

This is a strange post.

I am okay with myself gone...

Your predecessor claimed Miller btw, can you confirm?

Yea I can confirm. Me and Kyouko are the millers.

This is also a strange post.

I just read over Keyleth's entire ISO in Toriel's Patience and he doesn't defend his townreads like he's doing with kyouko this game. There's one instance of him maybe doing this in post #2791 but other than that, this is just not something town!Keyleth does. He's already defended kyouko multiple times

I think they're both just scum here

That game had a different voting system after the first 2 eliminations, and neither of the first two eliminations was one of her townreads. I don't think these games are comparable.

[Dunnstral]

I trust ssbm_Kyouko

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: Hu Tao

[Dunnstral]

What if I said I was a miller

b

odyguard, and so Hu Tao's claim, while not impossible to be town, feels less likely to come from town?

[Dunnstral]

I didn't think Hu Tao was going to be eliminated unless the bodyguard comes forward today. ssbm_Kyouko is currently the leading wagon and I don't like that wagon.

[Dunnstral]

I don't think Celeboki is a good vote.

[Dunnstral]

@Hu Tao thoughts on Dunn's BG claim?

Just posted but I think it's possible we are both town

What makes you think bodyguard could be town from your point of view?

[Dunnstral]

I don't think Celeboki is a good vote.

You think voting out potential doctor is better?

I do.

[Dunnstral]

I don't think Celeboki is a good vote.

Thoughts on Key?

Light townread. Nothing I am confident in.

[Dunnstral]

I don't think Celeboki is a good vote.

Thoughts on Key?

Light townread. Nothing I am confident in.

Thats not really helpful.

I gave you my opinion.

[Dunnstral]

Alright I see things are getting confusing now and I still don't like the direction things are going today and we are running out of time. And Celebloki is about to claim. I attempted to roleswap with Celebloki's soft claim.

[Dunnstral]

I think both dave and Gamma make sense as partners to Keyleth

VOTE: Keyleth
Feel Key is the best flip in finding potential association

Can you explain your thought process here?

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: KawaiiKame


I find their vote on Keyleth in post 1385 suspicious. They say Keyleth is best for finding potential association but it's not clear whythey think that. They seem to be parroting what others have been saying earlier.

[Dunnstral]

I'm lurking and reading. Deciding if I think Gamma is a vote today. I don't have the time at the moment to really dive anyone until maybe later this afternoon. I've only really formulated a list of people I don't want to vote (which I've listed before). At the moment Gamma isn't on it, but I'm not completely ready to vote her. I honestly have a hard time reading Gamma. Since my return nearly every completed game I've been in has had Gamma in it and I struggle to read her. I'm kind of waiting for a game to see a different side of her, but idk if I see that here yet. Her town/scum differences must be subtle to say the least.

I'm a proponent of not doing no elims, so push comes to shove I can maybe get on the Keyleth vote by deadline, but the only scummy thing you could argue about her play is that she's being too neutral and appeasing. I kind of agree that her play doesn't really benefit town at all, so the lim isn't the end of the world. Her play could be a great disguise for scum though.

I don't think we should be voting Gamma with that claim

[Dunnstral]

I will point back to Kawaiikame's vote on Keyleth looking like a mafia vote.

[Dunnstral]

I liked Hu Tao's recent posts but think their claim looks suspicious, but again not impossible, with recent claims and softs

[Dunnstral]

I see we have 7 hours left and if we want to avoid a no elim we have to consolidate somewhere.

[Dunnstral]

I will point back to Kawaiikame's vote on Keyleth looking like a mafia vote.

Could you elaborate on this

I believe they are parroting some earlier sentiments on Keyleth but don't really believe what they wrote. It's not clear how they think Keyleth has good associations. Their vote timing looks like jumping on the wagon to end the day.

[Dunnstral]

gob are you around?

[Dunnstral]

Yeah that feels like someone told them to get in here, I think we have our lim, especially with no PR claim.

By any chance are you from a community where mafia usually have a discord chat?

[Dunnstral]

I was just wondering how they would be summoned from a pt unless they were already on the site and probably following along

[Dunnstral]

Yeah that feels like someone told them to get in here, I think we have our lim, especially with no PR claim.

By any chance are you from a community where mafia usually have a discord chat?

I've had chatrooms for scum teams everywhere I've ever played, most of my history predates Discord though. Why?

Dunn thinks you summoned him :dead:

Spicy

I thought that Timmers could have been used to mafia having a discord and pinging them there.

[Dunnstral]

Gob, replacing

Cat Scratch Fever

, replacing

MerelBlackbird

Seems suspicious to me that this slot has replaced so many times.

[Dunnstral]

Since i have seen town!Tao lie about being doctor, i suppose she could be town.
I dont see what scum!Broccoli would gain from defending town!Tao - more likely he would support the easy lim. Defending Hu Tao makes sense only in case of both town or both scum. Both being scum is something to think about.

They are still trying to confuse things by saying they protected Gamma when they didn't. Where is the town motivation there?

[Dunnstral]

I'm confused as to why people think Hu Tao is town and lied.

[Dunnstral]

I don't

b

elieve the claim at all. I also don't believe for a second that Hu Tao thought she was actually hammered so the claim itself was no way a twilight-esque spew. It was a calculated gambit.

I was waiting for Guillo's opinion on the Hu Tao claim. He's a bold person and if he doesn't think a Hu Tao lim is the play I'll sheep that I guess. I still think Hu Tao is probably scum so the only way she'll go is through limming.

Can I also just say, love it or hate it, having gob in the game really spices things up.

Even though she wants me dead, I still don't think Kyouko's the play today.

This might seem completely out of left field, but I am just pondering scenario's. In a game this size, and considering Hu Tao's claim of Complex Indecisive Doctor, is a second town protective role likely balance-wise or would that be too town sided?

Here is why I thought Celebloki was softing bodyguard. They capitalize a b in the first post here, and in the next post they make they use the word 'bold'. Their third post asks if a second town protective role would be likely.

By the way, I also capitalized a b in 1263

It seems they are instead claiming some kind of a rolecop role, which is confusing to me given their behavior above.

[Dunnstral]

Also the context of those first 2 posts is Celebloki saying they don't believe Hu Tao's claim so it made sense to me that they were also a protective in distress.

[Dunnstral]

Lastly I think Gob lied about their reason for replacing out being that they were in too many games. Point being they joined a new game right after replacing out of this one and have posted nearly a hundred times on the site since then.

[Dunnstral]

Oh wait I understand. Black did the first one. Protected gamma and they both died.

I guess I misinterpreted this post?

[Dunnstral]

Good morning, Hu Tao lied. She’s vanilla.

VOTE: Hu Tao

You could be a scum role cop. You softed doc/bodyguard.

Why would you think scum have 2 goons in a complex setup? Makes no sense to claim as town to do this.

And Gamma claimed Gunsmith which is tangentially related to what Celebloki is claiming now in my eyes.

[Dunnstral]

Though why would mafia be investigating you when you've claimed already. Did they have a reason to believe you could be faking? I'd think they would look at somebody unclaimed.

[Dunnstral]

Hu Tao have you ever said why you claimed Doctor?

[Dunnstral]

Oh wait I understand. Black did the first one. Protected gamma and they both died. :lol:

I guess I misinterpreted this post?

No you understood it perfectly. Black used her babysitter on Gamma which resulted in Gamma's death.

I originally read it as Hu Tao claiming to have protected Gamma, but Gamma dying anyway

[Dunnstral]

So Hu lied about their claim but it's cool because they are obv-town, Dunn can't understand Black's role and how it resulted in Gamma's death, Celeb soft-suggested a protective role and apparently crumbed some clues but now says they are an investigator and yet we are believing them as well even though they will explain itall tomorrow, does that sum things up?

I do understand Black's role. I thought Hu Tao was claiming something as well, instead of talking about what Black did.

[Dunnstral]

So Hu lied about their claim

but it's cool because they are obv-town, Dunn can't understand Black's role and how it resulted in Gamma's death, Celeb soft-suggested a protective role and apparently crumbed some clues but now says they are an investigator and yet we are believing them as well even though they will explain itall tomorrow, does that sum things up?

Was there a hard-claim on this?

If so I DO want this slot resolved NOW.

Weren't you talking about Hu Tao claiming doctor earlier? Why are you asking this now?

[Dunnstral]

So Hu lied about their claim

but it's cool because they are obv-town, Dunn can't understand Black's role and how it resulted in Gamma's death, Celeb soft-suggested a protective role and apparently crumbed some clues but now says they are an investigator and yet we are believing them as well even though they will explain itall tomorrow, does that sum things up?

Was there a hard-claim on this?

If so I DO want this slot resolved NOW.

Weren't you talking about Hu Tao claiming doctor earlier? Why are you asking this now?

I don't think that was me, Dunn. If so please quote it.

You made this post and I wonder how you could reply to this without realizing Hu Tao was a Doctor claim:

I’m certainly not going to listen to Hu Tao. I suppose she could have lied to cover any other PR and avoid getting limmed, but I think it’s more likely she’s a goon.

I am telling you she's a VT who fake claimed doc. I wasn't buying her claim for a second.

If Hu Tao flips Scum I want this slot examined next.

[Dunnstral]

Black flipped babysitter, which is a protective

[Dunnstral]

You made this post and I wonder how you could reply to this without realizing Hu Tao was a Doctor claim:

Celebloki claimed role cop and claimed that Hu is Vanilla. Pay attention, please.
This could be scum disconnected from game. I got my eyes on you.

I think you are the one who is confused here.

[Dunnstral]

Hu Tao vs Celebloki could contain a scum.
Hu Tao looks much worse, that slot is untrustworthy. Starting with her is less risky than limming potential useful town PR but also her flip gets plenty of useful info.
I wanted to go this way but allowed Broccoli and Hu to make me hesitate. :roll:
Out of the 3 i feel like Hu has the best chance of rolling scum.

VOTE: Hu Tao

No reason for Celebloki to be mafia here. Hu Tao lied either way so their result is correct.

[Dunnstral]

I got through #909. Through there, I have the game something like this:

Town
{Black, KawaiiKame}
Strong Lean Town
{Celebloki}
Lean Town
{TimmerRC, Dunnstral [Miller Claim], ‪Cat scratch fever, ‬Guillotina}
Slight Lean Town
{ssbm_Kyouko [Miller Claim], Broccoli Quest 2, Random Nurse, Naerys}
Uncertain
{Hu Tao}
Slight Lean Scum
{davesaz}
Lean Scum
{Elements, Keyleth}
Scum
{Gamma Emerald}

Spoiler: With Quotes

[Comments before end of D1]

217 - I can’t say I like the reasoning for the vote expressed here, but I don’t know that Scum openly admits to voting as a form of policy instead of just saying it was RVS. I know Celebloki is getting a lot of heat for this explanation from what I can tell, so I would just say that I don’t get SR the slot for this. I think if Scum had to explain the vote to draw the least amount of suspicion, they probably just say that it’s an RVS vote and that’s it. The extra explanation clearly isn’t angled at making themselves look good.
219 - Interestingly, I’m surprised to actually agree with this thought. It may not be entirely accurate. Still, I like the skepticism that underlies it.
285 - This may be the sort of question Scum asks to appear to be advancing the game. Or it could be genuine curiosity, not sure. If you’re asking me (and I know you’re not), there’s no definitive process that works. At the end of the day, Scum have to bullshit.
293 - I’m not a fan of this post. I would argue Kyouko didn’t seem “afraid”. They were simply trying to connect (yes, despite the vote). I don’t know if Kyouko’s Miller claim was “opportunistic” - I may have to revisit the context.
306 - I can’t say I understand this pivot. If you really believe Kyouko is trying to attack you early because they’re scared of your slot (I presume because you’re good at catching Scum), then why not keep up the pressure after they’ve collected some quick votes?
327 - I agree that Guillotina’s bursts of posts are probably +Towny. Nevertheless, I share Black’s “concern” about the switch to Celebloki there.
348 - Is this back and forth supposed to convince me that Random Nurse and Guillotina can’t be partnered?
384 - Certainly quite a bit of overlap with some of the reactions I have felt. Though the questions themselves are probably easy to fake from Scum, I’ll admit that the level of enthusiasm is probably difficult to sustain from Scum. Though that’s coming from the perspective of someone that doesn’t like playing Scum ever.
391 - I don’t think you can know this @Elements. If the pivot happened within 30 minutes, then a previous post shouldn’t have caused the switch. I would have found it more believable if Guillotina had simply said that they were

also

suspicious of Celebloki for the reasons explained.
402 - Black’s skepticism here in response to Elements claiming to not have a read of Guillotina is, in my mind, warranted.

[Reading After D1 has ended]
449 - This is far fetched. Not a particularly convincing argument from Guillotina.
468 - For reasons specified above, I don’t like this argument from Kyouko.
478 - Obviously Broccoli’s read of Gamma as Scum is negative points. To be totally fair, I don’t think I ever even had a chance to express a read there so I can understand why this opinion might be annoying.
482 - Since this doesn’t read like distancing to me, Celebloki is more often than not Town (assuming this keeps up).
484 - Since we know this is a Scum motivated wagon, these votes from Elements and Broccoli are not positives. Do I think the whole Scum Team jumped on a slot all at the same time? No.
518 - Now this is interesting. Gamma actively arguing against a vote for Guillotina in this way is either a pocket or a Partner. Will have to decide which one.
526 - I don’t know what to make of this interaction between Broccoli and Gamma. Is it too blatant for Partners?
529 - Meh. Ruling out Kyouko and Guillotina over 18 just doesn’t make any sense to me. Dunnstral and Elements could certainly be partnered. If anything, 28 is some evidence in favor of the idea that perhaps Dunn and

Gamma

are not partnered. And the way Gamma shaded Elements is clearly nothing that Scum aren’t capable of doing. This post isn’t particularly impressive.
The interaction between Gamma and Random Nurse I will admit didn’t strike me as Partners. So I would argue there’s some positives there.
536 - This probably just clears CSF for now.
546 - I do agree that Guillotina and Gamma are probably not partnered given 329. I do think that Black’s argument against Guillotina was valid, but I’m having a hard time simply ignoring the more direct interactions with Gamma.
549 - Probably Town indicative for Dunnstral (the attack on Gamma).
563 - Not great in a vacuum. Funny enough, Keyleth SR’ing one of the most widely TR’ed slots in the game is a positive for me.
565 - This certainly confirms the observation above. Also, this is a positive for Naerys - they’re reaching out to a slot that’s +Town in my book to defend another Town that’s being (wrongly) suspected.
567 - If this ended up with a vote, perhaps Broccoli and Gamma are not really partnered.
569 - I don’t know if Gamma as Scum reacts to a Partner’s suspicion this way, but it’s very convincing distancing.
581 - Then again, this feels like a bad vote. Having said that, Gamma trying to move Guillotina from Naerys to Celebloki (not directly, of course) in 582 has to be considered as a subtle defense.
592 - I’m thinking this post from davesaz is bad. I would argue it’s clearly shading a Towny, but it’s also not particularly strong. Just attacking the strength of the read.
595 - All this analysis, only to vote Town. That’s a shame. I remain in disagreement that Gamma flipping Scum spews Elements Town.
602 - This also doesn’t feel like distancing. Considering it’s a “spicy take” from Scum, I can’t imagine it’s accurate. 625 also means that the take is followed with an actual vote, which I would argue is a decent indication of it not being SvS. Also, I don’t think it’s particularly common to accuse a Partner of “bullying”.
603 - I had a good laugh at this. Timmer is again, probably just Town.

As a side note, this game feels very dense. It’s taking me a long time to parse through each page.

626 - Uh oh. Not good from Keyleth.
627 - Yeah, I can’t currently conclude that Broccoli and Gamma are trying to distance here. The use of the word “bullying” and Broccoli’s clear negative reaction to that are pretty Town indicative to me.
639 - Interesting line here from Guillotina.
640 - Now this I would actually vote. davesaz is doing the classic I see my Partner is struggling with their push, so I will argue they’re both Town in a way to protect their position.
648, 665 - We can certainly dispense with the notion that Elements and Gamma can’t be partnered.
658 - Since this is real pressure, Celebloki is probably never Scum here.
674 - It’s going to be hard to trust Kyouko in light of the set of posts culminating here.
691 - There’s something shady about this post. Arguing that your own behavior is +Town because you’re helping de-obfuscate is quite questionable.
692 - @Kyouko, I read Dunn’s post as defending Kawaii from Gamma. Now of course it doesn’t matter. Kawaii was Town, and I agree upon reading more closely that Dunn wasn’t doing that, but instead was reacting to Elements. I think there’s other reasons to believe that Dunnstral is Town in any case.
The point on Kawaii and Timmer was a bit more nuanced, I would argue. TImmerRC seemed confused like you said, and somewhat outraged, that Hu Tao had claimed VT. Kawaii then said “it’s definitely weird” which is another way of saying “it’s Scummy”, which I didn’t agree with (I don’t think Hu Tao is Scummy for claiming VT so early). At the time, I felt the way Kawaii approached the situation was Scummy. I was wrong, obviously.
696 - Though I have to read through the collection of posts here again, the case constructed by Kyouko of Celebloki is probably flawed, and should be scrutinized.
711 - This is Keyleth defending Scum and one of my biggest SRs so I can’t say I think this is great.
715 - I can’t view piling onto Celebloki here as a positive (from davesaz).
723 - I think Kyouko arguing this deep in the game that the reasoning behind an RVS vote is sufficient to justify a large wagon on a player is just a bad look. It may not be coming from Scum, admittedly. As in, why would Scum spend so much time making themselves look tunneled with the primary reason being an RVS vote? But at the time, it was the wagon with the most votes on. So that’s something to consider.
728 - I think voting Elements here is justified.
756 - If I’m being objective, I would think this is a positive from Guillotina. And also, I think Broccoli criticizing the focus on the RVS vote in 755 is a tad positive, but not to the same extent since they found a way to maintain their vote regardless. Now, Celebloki would have to be confirmed Town, but shifting away there I would argue is +Town.
766 - I would argue Dunnstral probably has the game somewhat upside down from reading this (up to that point), but I’m not thinking that’s Scummy.
783 - I would argue this is Scummy from Keyleth.
784 - This reads like a pocketing attempt to me. TR’ing the strategy put forth by Broccoli, I would argue, is being done because Broccoli TR’ed Gamma pretty strongly. My point being that I am not of the mindset that Gamma and Broccoli are partners even if Broccoli seems to have consistently defended Gamma throughout.
817 - Would like to highlight this post from davesaz. Not a good look.
822 - From my perspective, this pool for an execution is problematic since I TR all of these slots. Gotta say - definitively calling Broccoli anything this game is going to be tough (from what I’ve observed so far).
833 - This is the sort of subtle defense of a Partner I would expect to see (davesaz and Gamma, in this case).
848 - I’ll just quickly give my thoughts on Town blocks but I don’t expect to get much of a reaction to it. Town blocks are a necessary evil. Setting up a POE is key to putting Scum in a corner. I don’t think anyone is suggesting that Town blocks should be trusted forever if set up D1 (and Broccoli clearly would have lost the game that way if it wasn’t for Black’s excellent use of their role), but I don’t like these posts arguing against their use. In my experience, they can be extremely effective tools. Having said that, I understand Celebloki’s skepticism. I just think it’s misplaced.
860, 861, 863 - Hm. I started reading this sequence as potentially partners, but the fact that Gamma was completely willing to apply pressure here with a vote deflates that argument to a large extent.
867 - The AtE from Naerys is real.
873 - This is too harsh for partners (though there’s always a chance it’s deception). I’m thinking davesaz and Hu Tao are not partnered as Scum.
909 - I have a couple of broad thoughts. Firstly, Kyouko reevaluating like this is Towny. There’s a couple of things that I have picked up from Naerys that make me think the slot is maybe Town (for example, the AtE in #867). I also think that Kyouko is trying to figure out Naerys’ alignment with nuance, and it doesn’t read like fake reasoning to me. The analysis whether Naerys was being waffly with the points about the millers seems solid. I don’t think the underlying points are super strong per se, but I think it’s a bit too nuanced for Scum.

Are you saying you didn't check who was eliminated over the night, or any of the night kills at the start of the day?

[Dunnstral]

Since i have seen town!Tao lie about being doctor, i suppose she could be town.
I dont see what scum!Broccoli would gain from defending town!Tao - more likely he would support the easy lim. Defending Hu Tao makes sense only in case of both town or both scum. Both being scum is something to think about.

Havent finished my thoughts here, lol. Sent it by mistake.
Anyway, while faking doctor is something Hu Tao did as town, i think we need to look at her behavior since beginning. First she claims vanilla, then when she gets pushed she claims doctor. At the very best she feels untrustworthy, at the worst these are scummy moves. She could be doing it bcz she knows there are players who have seen her faking doctor as town, so she counts on that those will TR her.
Conclusion: flipping Hu gives us decent info. It solves potential Hu+Broccoli+Gamma buddies.
VOTE: Hu Tao

Even though she wants me dead, I still don't think Kyouko's the play today.

This might seem completely out of left field, but I am just pondering scenario's.

In a game this size, and considering Hu Tao's claim of Complex Indecisive Doctor, is a second town protective role likely balance-wise or would that be too town sided?

I think i was hasty in believing Celebloki.
UNVOTE: Hu tao

I forgot about the Miller claims. So town might have a role cop. Why cele would waste it on me, not sure.

maybe bcz u went from vanilla claim to doc claim. That does not make you the most trustworthy person around here.

I do agree it looks weird on paper but Gamma was trying to send Hu Tao over! Do you think Gamma was just trying to damn a partner over someone like Kyouko or myself? I guess the main question is how many of the main wagons do we believe were on a wolf between Hu Tao, Kyouko, and myself. We already know the other two were one town and one wolf. Oh this is fun!

If Gamma thought that Hu wont get elim, it could be possible. But yeah, thats very unlikely. Evidence points to Hu being town.Still being wary of her, though.

Lastly I think Gob lied about their reason for replacing out being that they were in too many games. Point being they joined a new game right after replacing out of this one and have posted nearly a hundred times on the site since then.

VOTE: Dunnstral
Gobs reason is his own and this post is really bad.

Naerys, understand that if Hu Tao flips Scum I will also be suspecting you because it could be seen as you trying to shift my focus away from HT and onto Celebloki.

If you're Town, understand this possibility. If you're Scum understand that I will eventually catch you.

I am not trying to shift anything. I just dont know whom to trust.

Hu Tao vs Celebloki could contain a scum.
Hu Tao looks much worse, that slot is untrustworthy. Starting with her is less risky than limming potential useful town PR but also her flip gets plenty of useful info.
I wanted to go this way but allowed Broccoli and Hu to make me hesitate. :roll:
Out of the 3 i feel like Hu has the best chance of rolling scum.

VOTE: Hu Tao

You made this post and I wonder how you could reply to this without realizing Hu Tao was a Doctor claim:

Celebloki claimed role cop and claimed that Hu is Vanilla. Pay attention, please.
This could be scum disconnected from game. I got my eyes on you.

I just see disconnect and no real train of thought here. Just bouncing from one to the next. First I was scum. Then town. Then for some reasons Cele and me contain one scum.

I don't see this as scummy though.I think there are some logical errors related to how they interperet you and Celeboki.

[Dunnstral]

There are a few fairly limited places where it's beneficial for town to lie. I don't think derailing a wagon on yourself is one of them.
Goons are vanilla.
Rolecops are often scum.
Given the above if you think Celebloki must be town for rolecopping Hu Tao and Hu Tao must be town for being vanilla and sorta kinda maybe scumreading Gamma, then you're forgetting a few facts.

I don't think they're both scum, and in fact it is possible they're both town. But neither one is lock.

They're not claiming role cop, they seem to be claiming something more similar to a vanilla cop

[Dunnstral]

Lastly I think Gob lied about their reason for replacing out being that they were in too many games. Point being they joined a new game right after replacing out of this one and have posted nearly a hundred times on the site since then.

Hosts modkill players for reads like this one where I come from.

If you'd like to educate yourself with the rules for this site, this link will take you to the site-wide rules, this link will take you to more specific replacement rules, and this link will take you to this game's rule set.

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: Hu Tao

[Dunnstral]

In any event, I haven’t read why Hu Tao is getting pushed today for some claim, but that’s a really easy way to lose the game (focusing on claims versus play).

Hu Tao claimed VT in like post 14 or something. Then way way later on, close to deadline, when they were getting close to eliminated, they claimed Complex Indecisive Doctor.

Gamma

tried to imply the Doctor claim could come from scum by claiming Gunsmith, a role that would be able to clear Millers but would get a false positive on a Scum Doctor.

I think it's pretty clear from what Gamma did that Hu Tao is town. This did not become clear until morning when Gamma flipped, so it's not an egregious scumclaim for Celebloki to have checked Hu Tao, but I really wish he had used his power some other way.

Fine.

VOTE: Roden

[Dunnstral]

I'm at page 11

Gamma Emerald - lean scum

Spoiler:

I claim miller

Same

jfc

Strange reaction

Gamma you've still got your rvs vote on me, why?

haven’t felt a need to move it
VOTE: KawaiiKame
They pinged me somewhat with how they unvoted kyouko, not strongly though

I feel like forgetting your vote is +scum and this reads a bit hedge-y

Outline some oh his best noobish posts please.

It’s really just the questions about scumteam size
They’re freaking standardized for Simple normal games atp, if these questions were genuine he should have gotten the memo by now. I know this game is complex but that changes nothing about how the simple guidelines established a baseline that’s set in stone.

I actually don't disagree about the question
But RN's alignment shouldn't be too hard to determine, so I guess I'm not too concerned about it yet

I could see these posts as mafia interacting with each other. The first read on Gamma here seems like they have too much information as the actual read is pretty weak and they never go anywhere with it.

Gob does not intertact with Gamma in a substantial way

[Dunnstral]

And I don't want to split focus today but I am suspicious of Keyleth as well.

[Dunnstral]

This sounds like town!Naerys to me.

Care to give me Naerys' full meta? Are they the kind of player that I should have low expectations from?

I am not really sure what "full meta" means, but Naerys tends to semi-lurk, semi-scum hunt, and be overdefensive as town. Which is what she's been doing here.
Additionally her tone sounds similar to her town games but I actually think there's a reasonable chance she could fake that tone as scum so that's probably NAI.

I know who the real doctor is. I thought it was pretty obvious? Check my ISO.

If the doctor is anyone else other than Hu Tao, why are you defending Hu Tao?
I'm not interested in getting the doctor outted, but how did you come by this info considering Celeb is the role cop?

I'd rather not say how I know the doctor's identity.
I've been defending Hu Tao because she retracted the Doc claim (which I thought was scummy), because I believed her VT claim is real (which it probably is), because all of her posting toDay gutpinged me town a lot, and because Gamma, flipped scum, was pretty focused on limming Hu Tao yesterday (in a way that doesn't feel like bussing to me).

Hu Tao retracted the Doc claim because they were investigated as Vanilla...

[Dunnstral]

I don't think it is at all obvious that Hu Tao is town. I am listening to the argument that Gamma's interactions with Hu Tao make them more likely to be town. I think Roden is a good vote.

[Dunnstral]

I seem to recall somebody asking why Elements was being voted. It doesn't seem like anybody was able to give a response to that.

[Dunnstral]

Celebloki is this the slot you saw protective softs from?

[Dunnstral]

Alright, Hu Tao.

You have been mislimmed a lot right? Werent you mislimmed in a game we played together previously?

Alright, Hu Tao.

You have been mislimmed a lot right? Werent you mislimmed in a game we played together previously?

I think I've been eliminated twice wrongly. Last one was my fault really though.

So what did you claim? I want to hear in a different context than everyone else because it seems the way you claimed was odd.

Alright, Hu Tao.

You have been mislimmed a lot right? Werent you mislimmed in a game we played together previously?

I think I've been eliminated twice wrongly. Last one was my fault really though.

So what did you claim? I want to hear in a different context than everyone else because it seems the way you claimed was odd.

I'm a doctor. I just pretended to get hammered for reactions.

VOTE: Celebloki

UNVOTE: Celebloki

VOTE: ssbm_kyouko

Gob sees that Hu Tao claims doctor but they don't seem to suspect Hu Tao at all after the claim. Seems really weird if Gob's role was Doctor.

[Dunnstral]

No but I will soon. I'll try to get it by tonight but if not then tomorrow.

I'm not gonna read it all but i'll read the beginning and look at votes and stuff.

I just got a question though, if you have not caught up, why are you voting Kyo for then?

Because I don't find Hu Tao scummy, and among the people voting Hu Tao Kyo is the one I have voted the least in past games.

That is the reason lol. I feel like im always voting Celebloki and Gamma.

No but I will soon. I'll try to get it by tonight but if not then tomorrow.

I'm not gonna read it all but i'll read the beginning and look at votes and stuff.

I just got a question though, if you have not caught up, why are you voting Kyo for then?

Because I don't find Hu Tao scummy, and among the people voting Hu Tao Kyo is the one I have voted the least in past games.

That is the reason lol. I feel like im always voting Celebloki and Gamma.

Ok this implies you have read parts of the game to have those opinions. Why exactly you dont find Hu Tao scummy. What has any past games got to do with anything in this game? That is sort of OGIsh.
Why not just unvote ele and instead switched to Kyo?

Look if you're gonna ask this many questions we're gonna have problems.

No but I will soon. I'll try to get it by tonight but if not then tomorrow.

I'm not gonna read it all but i'll read the beginning and look at votes and stuff.

I just got a question though, if you have not caught up, why are you voting Kyo for then?

Because I don't find Hu Tao scummy, and among the people voting Hu Tao Kyo is the one I have voted the least in past games.

That is the reason lol. I feel like im always voting Celebloki and Gamma.

Ok this implies you have read parts of the game to have those opinions. Why exactly you dont find Hu Tao scummy. What has any past games got to do with anything in this game? That is sort of OGIsh.
Why not just unvote ele and instead switched to Kyo?

Look if you're gonna ask this many questions we're gonna have problems.

Are they difficult to answer?

Yea

[Dunnstral]

Roden who did you target last night?

[Dunnstral]

I believe that posts 2192 and 2193 show that gob did not react to Hu Tao's claim as if they were a doctor.

[Dunnstral]

4) He claimed his target, doctors dont do that.
(Also Dunn is scummy for asking an alleged doctor for their target, could be distancing.)

What, this isn't true.

[Dunnstral]

I think Andres is town

[Dunnstral]

Check out Melvor Idle

[Dunnstral]

Guillotina, did you protect Celebloki?

[Dunnstral]

Why did mafia go for the kill on Celebloki with a claimed Doctor and with Roden's alien role being dead. That is presumably the mafia's blocking power.

[Dunnstral]

Spoiler:

That literally was not my meaning. I was saying you’re faking newb posting.

Well now that's just insulting.

how??

Why do you think I would "fake newb post," Gamma?

Why can't it be that I'm just asking because I want to make sure we're not doing something stupid like assuming there's only 3?

Whenever I'm in Large games I typically ask about potential Scumteam size just to get that topic out of the way.

I don't "fake newb post" I'm basically a dinosaur here.

I am being vague in the interest of not fully outing who you are
If I’m wrong about that whole idea pls lmk

I've already shared my main times, so I would prefer you be direct and crystal clear so I can eliminate any misconceptions immediately.

I am being vague in the interest of not fully outing who you are
If I’m wrong about that whole idea pls lmk

I've already shared my main many times, so I would prefer you be direct and crystal clear so I can eliminate any misconceptions immediately.

Are you Wake?

I certainly am.

I wonder if these posts make Random Nurse town.

[Dunnstral]

Guillotina, did you protect Celebloki?

No, it was impossible for me to protect Cele again.

Also. Full claim 2-shot Indecisive Doctor, i protected Celebloki on night 1 and Broc last night.

I also received a mod message that someone is town aligned, i will not disclose this info until they decide to claim.

Glad you got the message.

I claim 1-shot Friendly Neighbor.

I got a friendly neighbor message from a different player this night.

[Dunnstral]

I believe Naerys' claim.

I think Keyleth slot has a good chance of being mafia from poe

[Dunnstral]

Kyouko's point is that if we eliminate you or me and are wrong the fn can be confirmed town

[Dunnstral]

If you think Andres is mafia you should vote me instead of Andres because me flipping town would confirm Andres as town, and I would have to be lying for Andres to be mafia

[Dunnstral]

I believe Naerys' claim.

Don't go away, someone claimed the FN you said you received so we need to know if it's right.

Yes I got FN from Andres

[Dunnstral]

If you think Andres is mafia you should vote me instead of Andres because me flipping town would confirm Andres as town, and I would have to be lying for Andres to be mafia

I disagree. Andres could be still town whom Fn Scum!dunn, is not like you have any other choice but to confirm Andres. Same applies to Naerys/Me, if i was scum i would still confirm town!Naerys otherwise she’d know im lying.

If you assume we are all town it is better to eliminate you or me rather than Naerys or Andres

[Dunnstral]

Anyone again RN being the vote today? After they check in

I am due to their interaction with Gamma I quoted in 2345

[Dunnstral]

No but I will soon. I'll try to get it by tonight but if not then tomorrow.

I'm not gonna read it all but i'll read the beginning and look at votes and stuff.

I just got a question though, if you have not caught up, why are you voting Kyo for then?

Because I don't find Hu Tao scummy, and among the people voting Hu Tao Kyo is the one I have voted the least in past games.

That is the reason lol. I feel like im always voting

Celebloki

and

Gamma

.

[Dunnstral]

Did you not protect Celeboki?

[Dunnstral]

I misunderstood the claim a little, I just looked up what combined does.

Macho means they can't be protected. Combined means they use both of their abilities on the same target. Disloyal means that action only targets opposite alignments.

So assuming town, this role targets only mafia with a night kill, but then Random Nurse dies due to the bodyguard. Though it also looks like the bodyguard can be used on its own on town players, since the vigilante part does not activate.

So Random Nurse should be announcing their targets ahead of time, otherwise they die during the night and we have no idea where they targeted.

[Dunnstral]

Miller does not interact with disloyal; Targeting a town miller with a town disloyal vigilante would not cause a shot to be fired

[Dunnstral]

If the target is not public then they die at night and we have no info

[Dunnstral]

RN can confirm townies every day as long as he lives,

I imagine the mafia will take issue with that and kill him. At least it buys time for the outted friendly neighbors.

[Dunnstral]

Balance wise I am a little suspicious. Mafia have to kill both friendly neighbors and Random Nurse. Imagine if Random Nurse had used their role to confirm people, or if Celeboki had rolecopped a miller; Or both. Mafia need to kill through 5+ cleared townies and town power roles, and that's assuming they kill the power roles on nights 1 and 2.

[Dunnstral]

Actually the alien is a nice counter to that. Random Nurse needs to announce target ahead of time, rolecop if claimed can easily be inferred to be going on the miller claims depending on how the thread goes. Friendly neighbors can be blocked.

[Dunnstral]

I'm a miller and nothing else

[Dunnstral]

I agree that Timmer and Elements are :eyes: sus.

[Dunnstral]

I'm fine with any combination of Random Nurse/davesaz using their roles as investigative actions or bodyguarding davesaz

[Dunnstral]

I am back.

Anyway i think plan of mod was like:
1. Haha i put two millers and they fight with claiming D1!!!
2. Haha i also put rolecop who can get innocents from them
3. I also give mafia alien which punishes claiming millers by protecting them from rolecop!!!

So maybe two millers is not that terrible that i predicted, but two friendly neighbours... Also make sense.

Need to understand that they most likely are real. There's little reason to chain self to buddy so they confirm you, if that's case it will be evident pretty fast. So FL claims are almost always town.
Targets... Not necessarily.


I find strange fact that mafia just killed rolecop with living doctor claim. Main point is Strange. Not suspicious. Maybe they didn't believe claim at first place (i had suspicions because insisting on not claiming target is bruh)

And MACHO BODYGUARD DISLOYAL VIG... Wait this is another innocent for rolecop. Didn't really notice it before.


Yeaaaah, it's overtaked in town favor, something not real, and i have no clue what exactly.

Whst is so BRUH about not claiming your targets as doctor? Not claiming them makes it harder for scum to try to predict whom i cant protect the following night and they’d just hit me. It is obvious scum couldnt wait to kill the rolecop so much that they took the risk.

You didn't claim indecisive until after you were out of shots

[Dunnstral]

I am back.

Anyway i think plan of mod was like:
1. Haha i put two millers and they fight with claiming D1!!!
2. Haha i also put rolecop who can get innocents from them
3. I also give mafia alien which punishes claiming millers by protecting them from rolecop!!!

So maybe two millers is not that terrible that i predicted, but two friendly neighbours... Also make sense.

Need to understand that they most likely are real. There's little reason to chain self to buddy so they confirm you, if that's case it will be evident pretty fast. So FL claims are almost always town.
Targets... Not necessarily.


I find strange fact that mafia just killed rolecop with living doctor claim. Main point is Strange. Not suspicious. Maybe they didn't believe claim at first place (i had suspicions because insisting on not claiming target is bruh)

And MACHO BODYGUARD DISLOYAL VIG... Wait this is another innocent for rolecop. Didn't really notice it before.


Yeaaaah, it's overtaked in town favor, something not real, and i have no clue what exactly.

Whst is so BRUH about not claiming your targets as doctor? Not claiming them makes it harder for scum to try to predict whom i cant protect the following night and they’d just hit me. It is obvious scum couldnt wait to kill the rolecop so much that they took the risk.

You didn't claim indecisive until after you were out of shots

Uhuh. And?

So even if you had claimed your target, mafia would not have assumed you could not target that person again.

[Dunnstral]

I think I have to lock-in and declare exactly who I'm targeting tonight otherwise Scum will take advantage of the lack of clarity. For now I will be targeting Hu Tao: if HT is Scum I'll die, if Town we both live (?).

If you target davesaz, your role functions as a bodyguard so it is harder for davesaz to die. And davesaz has a role which can reveal whether someone is a vanilla role or not.

[Dunnstral]

Alright ive caught up

The PoE (leaving out claims and mafia spew) are:

Enchanter
Timmer
Hu Tao
Dunn

Is this correct?

No I don't think so

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: TimmerRC

[Dunnstral]

I also don't see Timmer coming in to stop this from happening, I think we just need to give dave and RN time to post anything they have on their minds in case

something happens

toNight

I'm totally okay with this, I'm not helping town in any way, I'm so far over my head and it's obvious. I am a VT, so you aren't losing much, hopefully things will somehow become clearer after the night phase!

Thanks for the game, guys, I'm sorry I couldn't keep up.

And just as an apology, it's my own fault, I picked a stupid time to try to play, I'm prepping Christmas for the fam, I'm in the process of setting up a Mycology lab for my region, and honestly the output on this site is just too much for me even without that, so I'll likely not sign up for another. Thanks again!

This just doesn't come from scum. This is a new player feeling genuinely sorry for not helping.

Or Timmer is being a master of AtE/Townslip posts which is sort of what they were being accused of in the first place

Use logic. Mechanically and based on associatives, TimmerRC could be mafia. The reason to think they are not mafia is something they could be faking. How do you expect them to be playing here if they are mafia?

[Dunnstral]

I doubt there is a sk because babysitter can kill someone and the disloyal vig can kill someone, once (themselves)

So there could be 4 people dying on day 1 which seems silly

[Dunnstral]

I could vote for elements based on what Hu tao pointed out about TimmerRC. I think they mentioned they hadn't played in a while as well so that years ago would have been when they were last active playing.

[Dunnstral]

I doubt there is a sk because babysitter can kill someone and the disloyal vig can kill someone, once (themselves)

So there could be 4 people dying on day 1 which seems silly

This assumes RN is town though

Before the claim I pointed to RN interactions with Gamma not looking aligned in my post 2345

[Dunnstral]

Seems like a matter of wording... aren't you basically asking the same thing as you just condemned? Is it ok because it is a "softer" version of it in your eyes?

[Dunnstral]

Are you saying that I'm not talking?

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: elements

[Dunnstral]

Or at least vote for somebody else. Right now we are sitting here and waiting.

[Dunnstral]

It's a normal game so no

[Dunnstral]

We've got 8 days, people.

Why the rush?

Let's unvote for now.

You need to offer new information to talk about then.

[Dunnstral]

RN if you are not gonna target Dave, target one of the miller claims please.

I think trying to change the plan at the last second causes confusion and is scummy.

[Dunnstral]

I do think mafia could have a backup alien. Maybe neither of the power roles threaten mafia because they can roleblock Random Nurse and a mafia goon did not lie about being a PR for Davesaz' role.

[Dunnstral]

no message

[Dunnstral]

I do think mafia could have a backup alien. Maybe neither of the power roles threaten mafia because they can roleblock Random Nurse and a mafia goon did not lie about being a PR for Davesaz' role.

Do you scumread Hu Tao though?

I will always suspect the role claim shenanigans they pulled this game

[Dunnstral]

If Andres didn't send mail because forgot, i choke from laugh.

He died. Unless the night order of operations is different here, communications happen after kills everywhere I play.

This is a normal game and messenger acts before kills.

Guidelines can be read here.

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: TimmerRC

[Dunnstral]

If Andres didn't send mail because forgot, i choke from laugh.

He died. Unless the night order of operations is different here, communications happen after kills everywhere I play.

I'll take this as you didnt receive the message either - shooting happens last, so message would be sent, meaning he either forgot or he sent it to scum who decided not to say they got the message.

Scum are not multitasking by default, so if andres did not forget to send his message, and a kill happened, it means at most one scum was free to act.

Andres died which means he was not the target of an aliening from a backup alien/universal backup, which means whoever he tried to message is the one that got aliened, or he messaged scum that is not announcing. We know this was not dave or BQ2 because of the hood.

Most likely if there is an alien they would have targeted town!RN, going to check if andres indicated who he might target, my guess is the lack of a message points to one of {targeted scum, target was aliened}

I agree that Random Nurse was the likely alien target if mafia have a backup

[Dunnstral]

My struggle is this.

People are talking about shortlists of people to lim based on "mechanical clears". I don't know what that means. I don't know HOW to fight against that concept because I don't even know what it means.

People talk about how so n so played a certain way in a game in the past thus they are town, or scum, and it means nothing to me so I don't know how to use that.

People are blindly making plans on night actions with people who are almost certainly at least somewhere lying and fudging their results, but everyone seems ok to trust and plan, and that's bewildering to me.

I lost track of the game and these issues just crushed my ability to play, and now all of this mechanical stuff means I am getting limmed, so yes, I threw in the towel the other day. But I would be willing to try to participate now that I have time, but I have no idea what I can say that would fight against this idea of limming me. What can I say against it?

Well sorry if this game is confusing for you. If you have problems with the plans being proposed you should make it known.

[Dunnstral]

Can we unvote Timmer? Since he's being replaced now.

Why should replacing out make us unvote them?

[Dunnstral]

1) @Kuyouko you that are very prone to looking at old games to hunt for scum, how come you are not looking at this game's to realize that I have no scum motivation for how I handled Hu Tao when they faked doctor and how I proceeded to handle Hu Tao until I found that bit where Gamma pushed Hu Tao as CC.
How come you don't see that that is how a doctor must handle someone faking their claim.

Why does it bother you that I'm a 2-shot? Why are those grounds to consider me for an elimination? Because I'm useless to you now? or is it because you wanna exploit some irrationally paranoid people into elimnating me? or if you are town, how come you cant read between the lines?

2648, 2657

Some of your arguments don't logically follow from your position as I've pointed out in the above posts.

You claim you were not claiming your target because you were indecisive, yet you had only cc'd with "doctor", you had never mentioned being indecisive. As I pointed out, mafia would not have assumed you could not target the same person again, even if you had claimed your target.

Further, with you being a claimed doctor, mafia went ahead and killed Celebloki anyway. This happened right after the mafia alien was eliminated. This to me suggests that either you are lying about your role, or mafia has another way to get around your role (because they didn't know the specifics of your role at this time, as I've pointed out.) Backup alien would work; if you're town they could use alien on you and kill Celeboki, and now use alien on Random Nurse.

[Dunnstral]

Dunnstral hanging out in the periphery just within eyesight is annoying me.

You've done much worse this game lad. Posted nothing of value for ~6 days and then asked what the rush was while the game was stalled.

[Dunnstral]

You guys are willaging but sure go ahead and flip me before say Timmer, Enchant or even the Millers.

I agree that millers should be atleast looked into.

We are all ears

[Dunnstral]

Well as Town I don't HAVE to be active either then.

[Dunnstral]

Vote Count 2.6

Roden

(E-0): Broccoli Quest 2, Dunnstral, ssbm_Kyouko, davesaz, Hu Tao, Guillotina, Elements, Naerys,

Hu Tao

(E-6): Random Nurse, Roden,

Elements

(E-6): Keyleth, Andresvmb,

Naerys,

Dunnstral

(E-8):

Broccoli Quest 2

(E-8):

Keyleth

(E-8):

ssbm_Kyouko

(E-8):

Celebloki

(E-8):

TimmerRC

(E-8):

Andresvmb

(E-8):

Naerys

(E-8):

davesaz

(E-8):

Guillotina

(E-8):

Random Nurse

(E-8):

Not Voting

: TimmerRC, Celebloki,

With 14 alive it takes 8 to eject a player from the Game.

Deadline is (expired on 2023-12-17 14:00:00).

Mod Notes: None!

What the fuck is this game?

I counterclaim Roden, im the doctor.

I also may or may not counterclaim Broc

but i now believe Roden is scum

Because:

1) He is a frozen slot.
2) He is claiming my role and there is no way there are two doctors.
3) He claimed full doctor and it does not make sense given the modifier i have.
4) He claimed his target, doctors dont do that.
(Also Dunn is scummy for asking an alleged doctor for their target, could be distancing.)
5) He claimed to have protected a miller claim, what town doctor does that?
6) The pattern i found in his slot.
7) The way gob tried to rolefish me yesterday.

It goes without saying i will not claim whom i protected last night but let's gooooo!

VOTE: Roden

If you want to do VCA this is probably where to look, and if you believe Guillo can be mafia you want to look at the second post and decide if they are gambitting mafia who cc'd their own team member

[Dunnstral]

Roden (E-0): Broccoli Quest 2, Dunnstral, ssbm_Kyouko, davesaz, Hu Tao, Guillotina,

Elements

, Naerys
Hu Tao (E-6): Random Nurse,

Roden

Elements

(E-6): Keyleth,

Andresvmb

Not Voting: TimmerRC,

Celebloki

,

[Dunnstral]

I think Enchant slot and TimmerRC look the worst here.

[Dunnstral]

Guillotina performing a gambit by ccing their partner is not impossible, but I don't have a problem with Celebloki dying if we consider that both davesaz and Random Nurse being left alive likely indicates mafia have more blocking power

[Dunnstral]

Your thought process doesn't seem to fully line up. What I am accusing you of is being confused because you are fake claiming a role.

You first say:

Whst is so BRUH about not claiming your targets as doctor? Not claiming them makes it harder for scum to try to predict whom i cant protect the following night and they’d just hit me. It is obvious scum couldnt wait to kill the rolecop so much that they took the risk.

And in response I post:

You didn't claim indecisive until after you were out of shots

Do you see the problem here? With your claim of 'Doctor' there is no reason for mafia to assume that you cannot target the same player twice in a row. Your claim that mafia 'took the risk' doesn't make sense when considering that, and your own assumptions here don't make sense either.

[Dunnstral]

Guillotina performing a gambit by ccing their partner is not impossible

I was having doubts about Guillo beceause i thought and i still think, that remaining scum is well placed and it wont be easy to find them. But this had me thinking - Would Guillo CC their partner like this? Bussing yes, i believe Roden was bussed. But doing it this obviously? Certainly something to think about.

I don't know. Leaning towards at least one in the slots that didn't vote roden out at the moment.

[Dunnstral]

ssbm-Kyouko is right, I do think a neighborizer is meant to have one neighborhood

[Dunnstral]

Each Night, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, you will add that player to your neighborhood private topic. This action will be blocked if used on a player who is not vanilla.

Your role pm should look like this. Arguably what you describe as happening would not match what your role pm says.

[Dunnstral]

My problem is that you say it matches what your role pm says when it shouldn't.

[Dunnstral]

Did you have a neighborhood open from the start of the game, or is it only created when you target somebody?

[Dunnstral]

Looking at this Normal game review, Neighborizer has their thread from daystart on D1 and can leave notes in it, allowing their neighbor target to enter the PT and pass on their notes even if the Neighborizer dies.

I'm assuming BQ2 is the town and enchant the scum, but I'll ask both of you anyways: did Dave leave behind any notes in his thread from before he tried to neighborize you - notes that, upon his flip, could have been used to convey any reads he had kept hidden to himself?

link: viewtopic.php?p=13746344#p13746344

viewtopic.php?p=13999222#p13999222

[Dunnstral]

Going to shrug and vote Enchant as a compromise

VOTE: Enchant

[Dunnstral]

This is slow. Let's ignore the neighbor thing I guess. I still think mafia is likely between enchant and JacksonVirgo based on neither of those slots having been voting for Roden. Both have since had replacements so not much to talk about in terms of defense on their parts.

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: JacksonVirgo

[Dunnstral]

If I was Scum I wouldn't have claimed such a ridiculously convoluted PR.

I agree with this

[Dunnstral]

Enchant - My best enemy, my worst friend


Random Nurse - Literally obvtown. Neutral. Solution: try to not anger
Naerys - Literally obvtown. My enemy probably. Solution: Hope ends up NKed
davesaz - Probably mafia. My enemy. Solution: Shitpush at some point
Hu Tao - Probably town. My enemy. Solution: Hope ends up NKed

Broccoli Quest 2 - Bah. Probably town? My ally. Solution: Ignore until elo.
Guillotina - Suspucious as fuck. My enemy. Solution: Vote ASAP
Dunnstral - Idk but dedicated enemy. Solution: Vote ASAP
ssbm_Kyouko - I don't really like. Probably enemy. Solution: Vote sometime.
JacksonVirgo - Idk but dedicated enemy. Solution: Vote ASAP.



Damn playing mafia on grudges is ez, should probably do it more often.

???

[Dunnstral]

Didnt i just said it´d be ironic if both Guillo and Dunn were scum?

We wouldn't have killed anybody this night (or targeted Random Nurse) because:

1) Random Nurse was targeting one of us and to avoid a guilty we could let them be the only death
2) Dave's role of simple neighborizer is not threatening to us if we have already both claimed things that aren't simple. Unless Guillotina was a goon. I was already checked as not simple.

[Dunnstral]

Vote Count 2.6

Roden

(E-0): Broccoli Quest 2, Dunnstral, ssbm_Kyouko, davesaz, Hu Tao, Guillotina, Elements, Naerys,

Hu Tao

(E-6): Random Nurse, Roden,

Elements

(E-6): Keyleth, Andresvmb,

Naerys,

Dunnstral

(E-8):

Broccoli Quest 2

(E-8):

Keyleth

(E-8):

ssbm_Kyouko

(E-8):

Celebloki

(E-8):

TimmerRC

(E-8):

Andresvmb

(E-8):

Naerys

(E-8):

davesaz

(E-8):

Guillotina

(E-8):

Random Nurse

(E-8):

Not Voting

: TimmerRC, Celebloki,

With 14 alive it takes 8 to eject a player from the Game.

Deadline is (expired on 2023-12-17 14:00:00).

Mod Notes: None!

Roden fake claims doctor some time after Hu Tao votes for them. Thread consensus is that the claim is not believed. Naerys seems to believe the claim and votes for Elements while saying they don't want to miselim a PR. Guillotina then comes in and cc's their own partner, after which Elements and Naerys hammer Roden.

To me it looks like Naerys is town and wasn't aware of what Guillotina was about to pull, which likely was discussed in the mafia pt for a bit because looking back there was a delay from Guillotina reacting to Roden and counterclaiming Roden.

[Dunnstral]

Welp, I was trying to keep Guilll hidden with my claim, but oh well.

Where did you see Guillo indicate that they are doctor before this?

[Dunnstral]

I think if PoP flips "Backup" (universal or backup alien) that scum probably have one other PR, otherwise they would essentially be a 1-PR team against all of this flipped town power:

Simple Neighborizer
Combined Bodyguard Vigilante
Rolecop
at least 1 miller (if PoP is scum there is 1 scum left and at least 1 of Dunn and I must be telling the truth)
Friendly Neighbor/Messenger role
Babysitter Hider role

Don't think I'm missing any (flipped/confirmed) roles.

It's possible there are several goons to throw off the Simple Neighborizer but that feels too weak for what's here. At the same time a second FN might just be too strong for what else we've seen flipped

Will think about this with the flip. Right now I am leaning towards it being Enchant still and Roden having not been bussed before Guillotina counter claimed.

[Dunnstral]

Hey Broccoli Quest 2, can you briefly explain why it was a good idea for Guillotina to perform no kill last night.

[Dunnstral]

I think the doc wouldnt work bcz burde was macho?

This is wrong because the doctor is targeting the person Random Nurse is targeting, not random nurse.

[Dunnstral]

Hey Broccoli Quest 2, can you briefly explain why it was a good idea for Guillotina to perform no kill last night.

I have no idea what you mean considering:
1. There WAS a kill last night
2. Guillotina is both replaced out AND dead

I meant the night before when random nurse and davesaz both died.

[Dunnstral]

I think it's clear to me that mafia have made some mechanical errors. I think Enchant has shown they have some understanding while Naerys has not. I am questioning you because I'm not sure where you are.

[Dunnstral]

I also think Guillotina was making mechanical errors and I pointed out some problems with their claim and how they were acting, namely that their claimed modifier came after their claimed results and so couldn't influence mafia decisions.

[Dunnstral]

Randomnurse attempts to vig mafia, but it is blocked by the doctor role before the bodyguard portion of their role kicks in. The shot is fully blocked on the mafia, so Randomnurse does not die in their place. Randomnurse being Macho only affects protective roles that target Randomnurse themself.

There's a small chance that int he above scenario Bodyguard would act before Doctor for some reason. In this scenario it's still not because of the Macho modifier that Randomnurse would die.

[Dunnstral]

Hey Broccoli Quest 2, can you briefly explain why it was a good idea for Guillotina to perform no kill last night.

I have no idea what you mean considering:
1. There WAS a kill last night
2. Guillotina is both replaced out AND dead

I meant the night before when random nurse and davesaz both died.

I'm not asking for you to explain what happened, I'm asking for you to explain how mafia could have played that night hpase better.

[Dunnstral]

Hey who was neighborized on night 4? Nobody has claimed this but the action should have gone off before davesaz died.

[Dunnstral]

OK reading back Dave would have been targetting PRs so that action likely failed.

[Dunnstral]

with me town and kyou likely town
scum is inenchant -broccoli-dunn
if the miller claims are both true then its enchant or broccoli

Where the analysis tho

It is analysis - method of elimination.

How did you get to "if the miller claims are both true then its enchant or broccoli"

[Dunnstral]

Well, i dont think Guillo + his buddy would be on same wagon, imo they´d wish to keep distance from each other

So who do you think is mafia here:

D2 final:

Roden

- Broccoli Quest 2, Dunnstral, Kyouko, davesaz, Hu Tao, Guillotina,

Elements

, Naerys
Hu Tao - Random Nurse,

Roden

Elements

- Enchant,

Andresvmb

not voting - JacksonVirgo,

Celebloki

D3 final:

Elements

-

Andresvmb

, Hu Tao, ssbm_Kyouko, Dunnstral, Naerys, JacksonVirgo,

Elements

JacksonVirgo - Guillotina, Enchant, Broccoli Quest 2
not voting - Random Nurse, davesaz

[Dunnstral]

Well anyways. If I were mafia there's no need for me and Guillotina to kill Davesaz - they've already checked me, and Guillotina was a Doctor. Davesaz would have checked Guillotina, ssbm_Kyouko, or Naerys. If Naerys was lying about their role they'd need to kill Davesaz. Also Naerys does not seem to understand why no killing would have been good for mafia on that night so that also makes me suspect them as I feel mafia made a weird move.

[Dunnstral]

Are we in lylo? How much do I need to catch up?

I trust your slot

[Dunnstral]

Wait you can't be in this game MariaR.

[Dunnstral]

That seems to be harmful to us.

[Dunnstral]

Right now I feel that eliminating Naerys -> Enchant wins town the game

I have a little suspicion of Broccoli Quest 2 and pretty much no suspicion of ssbm_Kyouko

[Dunnstral]

I'd also like to wait for the replacement instead of having them potentially replace in at final 3

[Dunnstral]

I would not be ok with voting for them

[Dunnstral]

Guillotina ended up being mafia so I wanted to see where you saw them soft their role. You ended up showing where.

[Dunnstral]

Why did it matter where I had seen it?

Well I wanted to be sure it had actually happened at all.

[Dunnstral]

I wish to keep waiting

[Dunnstral]

I guess sorry for dragging things out

[Dunnstral]

Dead PT: viewtopic.php?t=92033

[Dunnstral]

Why does Dunnstral have the link for the dead PT though?

Anybody can go to the private topics subforum and see released pts.