Newbie 762 - OhGodMyVillage - Game Over

[Scien]

/terra

confirm

i

[Scien]

OMG

VOTE: Mastin

. On the grounds that he is one sneaky bastage, townies don't need to be sneaky!

PhilyEc, why is your avatar so distraught?

[Scien]

Le sigh...

Before I get too far right at the start, please tell me why you like to start off your games with a random roll result instead of a normal random vote. This exact same thing happened before in my experience, and I had to give that player a hard time as well.

Right off the bat I can tell you I dislike this style of voting. The fact that you let the result become a self-vote makes me like it even less.

Rolling seems to me to take away a risk involved in getting involved in the game. The risk being having an action be viewed as being scummy. A roll is something that someone could hide behind, because if someone decided it looked weird, the rolling player can just blame statistics instead of trying to defend themselves.

Long story short, I don't really see a roll serving any purpose besides two possibilities. A) A scum using it to stay behind the scenes. B) A townie trying to lay low, and not draw attention to themselves.

From past experience, you seem to be a player that would not fall into B. So what are your motives behind the die roll?

Second, you allowing the roll to fall on yourself makes me cringe even more. The same arguments about the roll could be laid on that course of action. Wanting to lay low, which is typically a scummy thing.

I dislike both a random roll, and self-voting.

Sorry to give you grief right out of the bat, but I don't like your initial action.

To the town, my vote is still random. But I want an answer from Mastin about the motives.

[Scien]

You went hard on him, if I recall, mainly due to how he dodged the questions.

Perhaps. But the main thing I am trying to say here, trying to avoid saying too much about the past, is that due to my views I am obligated to at least apply some pressure to figure out why someone would use the random roll as a tactic. I did it then, and things progressed after I got initial answers, just as we are getting initial answers here.

One thing an IC of another game taught me is that generating discussion is always a good thing [...] it actually generates rather the healthy amount of discussion [...]

I don't really see a roll serving any purpose besides two possibilities. A) A scum using it to stay behind the scenes. B) A townie trying to lay low, and not draw attention to themselves. [...] From past experience, you seem to be a player that would not fall into B. So what are your motives behind the die roll?

From past experience, you can also conclude that I do not fall into A. I know what these things can produce, and it has the opposite outcome of what you describe, in my experience.

First off in my rather limited experence I have not seen you as scum so I don't know if you could fit into the A category, that is what I am trying to decide.

Secondly, I take it you are arguing that the third choice is C) A player can use the roll as a tool to make himself look initially scummy, in order to increase participation in the game? Hmm maybe. But this has some drawbacks that I would like to ask you about if this is your claim.

First, would you consider it a risk that someone would start analyzing your play before you could get reads from others, bringing the tactic into limelight, and allowing for scum to dodge around it? Would you say that I am harming your attempts at the moment? Or do you think you can maneuver around this and still get the reads you are after from scum?

Second if you are truly trying to examine others, why were you content on a roll landing on yourself. This still screams scum to me. If you wanted to examine others, you could be playing the random roll game you are playing with me now, but have placed a random vote elsewhere so you had a chance of getting a reaction you could read out of more than one player. Letting a random vote land on yourself, and then arguing it away as statistics (which you have just done in your last post by saying you needed to leave yourself in the vote list), just screams to me that you want to look fair and impartial. When in reality every single person in this game has some info about the roles, even if it is just their own.

Where I was going with that last bit? If you are townie, you know that you are townie. Why would you leave yourself as a possibility for your own random vote? Because you wanted the vote to land on yourself. You wanted to call attention to the fact that it was a "random" vote, so you could avoid suspicion. The only group of people that should want to avoid suspicion are scum. Is their another possibility of why you would let yourself be a candidate for random vote? Why did you need to accentuate the fact that the vote was random? It still goes back to A or B, (I don't think C applies to my current train of thought, I could be wrong).

Where do you think I am wrong. I want to continue this...

[Scien]

I had no intention of it making me look scummy, but had intended for it to generate discussion (which it did).

Eh? How would it generate discussion without some people viewing it as slightly scummy and strange for a townie to do?

Why would I, if I had any other role, have any more motivation, for that matter?

I believe a typical scum would have more motivation for a move like this for one, although there are more possibilities. I believe scum would have more motivation due to the fact that it keeps them participating while minimizing their attacks on others by A) the random roll itself and B) the fact that the vote landed on yourself. A newbie scum could fall behind this thinking it was a good idea. I know you can see this, you seem pretty analytical. A pro-town role using the roll in a 'strange, practically unorthodox' way needs to be examined carefully. There is a reason for the examination.

I don't know what else bugs me about this, but it still does. The tactic gets an all around meh in my book. But you are right, it does look like it got some people involved rather quickly. If that was truly your goal, then ok. But IGMEOY (I got my eye on you).

I'm pretty sure of my own good intentions

First us as townies don't know your intentions. We have to decide that on our own. Second, I don't think he was questioning that. I think he was questioning that you felt the need to both post and tell everyone that you have good intentions. Seems fishy, sorry.

I wanted to show, by posting, that I haven't forgotten or quit the game.

Okay, in that case could you go into more detail about what you think about aspects of the game so far? You say later that you think the random votes can provide discussion, but think that the actual method of die rolling used by Mastin was suspect. If that is the case what do you think of Mastin's defense so far? Unsatisfied on anything? I am but I think I hit a wall of what I want to ask.

All good intentions (i hope) but I will try to keep the fluff to a minimum from now on.

Eh, don't be afraid to post. Talking more helps more, trust me. But then again you admitting to constantly worrying about your image makes people go 'Huh?'.

By simply rolling the dice, you are taking away the human aspect of choice from the RVS

QFT (quoted for truth).

Also, as for the 'getting discussion going' part, yes, you indeed got discussion going, but does this make you more towny? No. You did something scummy, and you got discussion going, but you are still scummy. Otherwise, scum could get away with anything that is scummy and draws attention to it. [...]

Eh, I think there is a slight difference here, and you are kind of using a slippery slope argument. It is true that he got discussion going. If that was his goal he definitely succeeded. It not like he is hiding behind the 'generation of discussion' as a last ditch defense here. Yes it is still scummy, I agree. But his immediately jumping to that as a defense makes me tend to believe it. It just seems to me to be a weak defense, when so many others are possible. And as an aside, just because I might be willing to believe that this was his goal doesn't mean that I will then buy it from everyone trying to use the defense. Just because it seems valid in one situation doesn't mean that it will hold in all situations.

[Scien]

You need double quotes around the name... so [.quote="Scien"]Text[/quote] without the period in front of quote.

[Scien]

Ok one last question for you Mastin, heh.

Unfortunately, nobody else has really contributed much.

So why are you calling off your tactic? You don't think you could have gained more insight when the current quiet people show up? Is their a reason why you think you have currently pushed this tactic as far as you were comfortable to go?

Basically, why is now the right time? You've seen actions from SirDanilot, Me, Ubaten. Counting yourself that's 4. There are 5 others in the game, you think that your change in focus will alter the responses you get when those guys show up? I think they very well might.

[Scien]

A lot of discussion has been spawned, great! People are suspecting people because of this discussion, even better! The problem is that I have the same info you have + a suspicion [of Mastin]

Hmm. I don't know if I can follow your logic, you might be stretching a bit too far. Just to make sure, are you suggesting that the fact that he is causing suspicions to come his way is in itself a scummy looking act? Not trying to defend him or anything, I have a few issues with his actions myself, but it looks as if you are making this claim and I don't agree.

Are you just arguing that it was not just the most optimal play? Maybe this is what you are going for instead of above, but that would just be a difference in play style. Unless you are thinking that he was just making a weird play and also thinking that the fact that it was not an anticipated play is scummy. If so, could you maybe explain to me some more on why you think acting in the way Mastin is acting is scummy?

[Scien]

Woah woah woah wait... let me quote everything for you Ubatem. I know what Mastin is trying to ask, and neither of you at the moment are understanding each other.

vote: Lleu

3. An answer (of sorts) to Scien who associated random roll voting = minor scummyness. I tend to agree and

voted accordingly.

Then why did you vote for Lleu? That had *nothing* to do with the random roll. My role was on myself, not on Lleu. And what about supposedly random voting? It's either random, or it's not.

This is what is confusing. You are claiming to agree with me, but then say that backs up your vote on Lleu. I think you were confused. You were voting for Lleu, not Mastin. Long story short, your vote on Lleu has nothing to do with your 3) comment above, but you made it sound like it did. Whats up?

Ok long story short, and if it helps you to stop for a moment let me advise you with Mastin's own words.

-You seem to be constantly contradicting with yourself. [...]
-You've done what I interpreted as dodging against some of my questions.

You are moving around from point to point like you are scared. Don't be. If you are townie you really have nothing to fear. Tell us the truth. Take your time to formulate thoughts before posting, and use quotes as much as possible if you are wanting more information from a specific player. But stay calm and collected. The more inconsistent you are the more you look like scum trying to find the best way out of a hole.

[Scien]

we need more input from the other players since a core of 3-4 players is doing all the talking right now

Yep, Scien's

unofficial

participation list:
Mastin - One of the actives.
Ubaten - One of the actives.
Scien - One of the actives.
sirdanilot - One of the actives.
Lleu - Starting to become active.

PhilyEc - Just spoke up. Is catching up with the walls of text.

Santos - Said one thing about a random vote, but is pretty much not here. Mar 29 was last post.
Crysnia - Has said nothing so far. Mar 27 was confirm post.
Barim - Posted his random vote, but nothing else so far. Mar 29 was last post.

I'm currently kind of waiting for PhilyEc's comments on the happenings at the moment. I would also like the last 3 inactives to say something. Crysnia is probably the only prodible right?

[Scien]

This discussion is killing me with all the coding errors and no names associated with quotes. Ugh.

Cool. Most of the messed up quotes were at the end of the second page. That must mean that we are fairly close to getting some content from you!

As for the quotes, I bet you are mostly irritated with Mastin. But his quoting style is that quotes are grouped by the person saying it, with the first quote attributed to its person. If you look a few quotes up you should be able to see who said what.

Looking forward to your insight.

[Scien]

Well to spell it out a bit:

A) Most of the messed up quotes were at the end of the second page.
B) Santos must have read up to the quotes that he is complaining about.
C) This is the top of the third page.

Therefore, Santos must be close to being caught up.

Still confusing?

[Scien]

I think it's still a weird way to say it.

I don't really know what was weird about it, but that's fine. As long as you understand now.

I'm leaning towards Mastin. The vote-or-die-mother****** on his self is suspect.

I take it 'vote-or-die-mother******' is your term for random vote? If so that means you don't buy his defense of it? I admit it does seem a bit weak, but do you have specific problems with it that you could articulate for us?

[Scien]

The preview button works nicely. I use it and it catches most my mistakes.

So if Mastin is really truthful about his randomness its quite stupid on his part because: if he is town, then he has just given scum reasons to vote for him that even a townie frowns upon.

He has flat out said that that is what he was hoping to happen. He claims that the whole situation was contrived to try and get the scum to push hard for the lynch. If he knew the consequences of his actions, and walked knowingly into the situation, is that really stupidity?

Not trying to pick on you too much, but you are pretty much agreeing with what others have said up till now without much new content. Yes, people see that the random.org thing was fishy. Yes, most just do a random vote with a quick quirp. Yes, Mastin did something that was scummyish if he is a noob scum, but he is claiming that that was his plan in order to flush people out. What do you think specifically about this attempted defense of his actions?

Also, I don't believe scum make a huge mistake unless we are continually providing content and hunting them out to put pressure on them. I still don't believe that you are helping in this regard.

So again: What do you think about Mastin's attempted defense?
Also what do you think of Ubaten's defense about what he meant with whole 'voted accordingly'?

I would very much like to hear your opinions.

[Scien]

Mod, sorry to bug you but could we prod Crysnia?

I'm still not sure about the polite amount of time to wait to prod, but I think that she's probably over it since her last post was Mar 27, and it was her confirm. Sorry if I'm wrong, I am a noob after all.

[Scien]

Well Barim, Lleu also seem fairly inactive. You care about them right? Or are you just saying you are picking on Phily because he is around.

[Scien]

Eh, that time I truly was ambiguous. I was trying to address you and mention that Barim and Lleu are both kind of quiet kinda quiet. The question was about if you were just focusing on one of them for some reason. But I guess not since you are questioning a few now.

I should quit posting at work >.<

[Scien]

So, does that mean that you think that pretty much everything that has happened before is pure fluff and we should disregard it? If not do you see anything interesting so far within his posts; anything either directed at him or in who he is pestering? Do you think that Mastin's long posts and analysis are any kind of tell? If not do you think that it might at least be some kind of tactic that we should be able to read the motives of?

What are your thoughts beyond the fact that you think he talks too much? Just curious.

[Scien]

I think [disliking long posts is a scumtell is] the case well into the game.

Hmm, I don't follow. Getting info out and in print in day 1 can contribute in future days. His long posts, and asking questions by using quotes should in theory get people to post their opinions and whatnot in day 1. Yes you might be right that the day 1 vote is probably going to be based on pretty shakey stuff, as the game has not really started. However this doesn't mean that day 1 is meaningless. We can get people to talk, and use their positions as evidence in future days. You don't agree with this?

[...] example of what I think of your actions is;
Dude: Vote Blah, sorry but you're obviously the last scum.
Mastins: ZOMG 'sorry' buddying if I've ever seen it! Lets waste an entire page into why it is or not! Why do you question me? ITs pro town! You're anti town for thinking its not helpful!

Don't follow, and I think at best this is some kind of logical fallacy. Probably a strawman argument. There is no evidence that he would try and hide behind the fact that he's talking the most yet. And the fact that he is getting people to talk currently is getting info to the town that we can use later.

Sorry but you are talking about needing less information again. Why are you so afraid of Mastin's posts so far? If he is getting others to talk it has a chance of getting a tell out of them. If you think Mastin is scummy, him talking more has a chance of getting a scum tell out of him. Why is him talking so much a bad thing?

I find his posting helpful so far. I can't speak for the others. But so far I think you are the only one that is complaining about having to read too much info.

Sorry if its just your classes that are getting to you. But so far in this game you have done nothing but want to limit what is said. I dunnot like it!

[Scien]

I think acts which stagnate the entire game deserve an FoS as its directly effecting our ability to find scum.

Ironic considering that you are trying to get people to talk less.

I think the effort to look town is far too strong on his part

I think there is a wiki on that somewhere... Too_Townie.

Find them majorly needless in size? Yes. Its making me not want to play the game and I'd say others could agree on this opinion considering the amount of activity.

So what if they are long... you are trying to argue that that is why people are inactive? There is no way to prove that. There is no way that you could know if that's the case. A couple of the inactive haven't posted past page 1. They would not have even seen some of the long posts unless they truly are around lurking.

Quite frankly to everything you are saying at the moment, NO. I have been criticized for the same things you are harping on and it is complete crap. I will examine others posts, I will quote people, and if they are not making sense I will post until they make sense. I will not settle for being quiet so that people can not hurt their little eyes reading some text.

Seriously. This is mafia. Its a text game. You expected something else?

[Scien]

Bwahaha. I'll fall for your little trap. "Scien, you are too invested in this. Now I am going to vote you so you have to defend yourself. Then you will have to get even more invested and I can point this out!"

Use of the word people isnt something I like to see.

I don't know if Mastin is townie or not. I know that I am. You want me to call him a towny as opposed to a person. Nope, won't do it. He's a person because I do not know his role. Now you are the one butchering quotes.

I know, but its brutal to read the discombobulated posts :/

This must have been one of the posts you skimmed. It had nothing to do with Mastin and lengthy posts. It had to do with people failing to use quote tags right and use the preview button to verify before posting. Actually the first post of Santos' was also about quote tag misuse. You are butchering quotes again by your own definition (which I would say is more taking things out of context, not butchering)

Scien, far too dismissive.

Hell yes I am dismissing your attack, and your assertion that post length is scummy. That's what this is all boiling down to. Post length means NOTHING in terms of role. Long posts tend to help town, if you disagree then something is fishy there.

More info in print is always positive for the town. Even if it takes long to read. You are trying to tell me that you want people to not scum hunt as much because it will cater to the people who don't want to really play the game. Nope, not going to do it.

Get opinions in the open, do this by questioning them. No text in this thread is superfluous. You are in essence arguing against this.

[Scien]

It may hold no relevance to what Mastin's allegiance is now, but I've used this tactic before and it failed miserably because it was too suspect in trying to say 'I'm trying to provoke scum to voting me' when in reality town players figure this is just a scum trick on the town. FYI, I was scum in that game giving the self-vote a shot to try and 'find scum'. Discuss.

Hmm really? I think this is where I am having problems. I try and run what motivations people might have for their actions through my head when I am looking at them. My thoughts on this tactic are this:
1) Experienced scum... I really can't think of why they would use this tactic. (You are saying that you have done so, so I might be missing something, assuming you pulled this trick with some experience behind you.)
2) Newbie scum might use this tactic to stay out of the limelight. Contributing while not contributing so to speak. (This was my first thought in this game)
3) Experenced townies might use this tactic to hunt out people by forcing discussion on themselves. (I wouldn't have thought this a possibility before this game)
4) Newbie townies might use this tactic to also try and stay out of the limelight. Which is bad of course because it looks scummy, and calls attention to themselves.

Basically in my mind 4 and 2 have been ruled out in my mind, although you guys need to make up your own conclusions. Since I have a hard time seeing why someone would use option 1, I have a hard time seeing if motives could lead there for an experienced scum player. That's why what you say is interesting.

Just out of curiosity, in the game that you played this tactic as scum, did you think that there was going to be a massive wave of townie attack coming towards you for it? Or did you think it was going to be minor, and something that you could argue away quickly? Also, do you think the towns response in this current game would qualify for being a massive attack towards Mastin so far, or more like a minor argument.

I am legitimately asking for more of your opinions. You have me thinking that maybe I truly am missing a possible motive/mismotive in this situation.

This is what I think Ubaten's defense was that I was curious for your opinion on (fixing quote tags sorry):

The reason I voted for Lleu is as I said that I believe random votes leads to discussion - in this case Lleu might very well respond to my vote asking me why etc, etc... The point was that it was not a random roll

I voted according to my belief that a random roll vote is a bit scummy and contra-productive and as I prefer not seeming scummy and being productive I voted a random vote instead, with no evidence whatsoever, but at an inactive player.

These are my answers given so far. I'll try to be as clear as I can for this attempt. I agreed with Scien that the random self-vote = minor scummyness, therefore I chose to vote accordingly. This is were my logic might seem strange, so brace yourselves. Voting accordingly meant, for me, not to do as Mastin had done and random self-vote but to do what I thought the most productive: a random vote on an inactive player.

Basically I think he is trying to say, without putting words in his mouth I hope, that why everyone was confused is when he said "voted accordingly" he meant not the person the vote was directed towards, but more of how the vote was made.

IMO it seems like it works, and I think I buy it. Just wondering what others thought about it, and mainly probing you for content as well.

Maybe because I'm not a trigger happy guy? Although it warrants an FOS for self-voting, it doesn't mean you should die asap. Day 1 should never end this early on a risk you took. So its worth some discussion; or would you really like me to vote you?

Eh a couple of things here. I agree, your vote doesn't necessarily need to follow your main suspect around if you think the vote has value elsewhere, as long as your end of day vote is on the most scummy player in your mind. But then again I don't agree with you that a vote is as extreme as saying that the guy is going to get lynched either.

I am a very patient in waiting for a scum slip. They'll come.

I still hold that scum slips don't come as often or at all if you wait around as opposed to scum hunting. Waiting is a curious tactic that I don't see as townie at all. How do you think scum slips will come about if everyone is waiting for them?

[Scien]

Waiting is a curious tactic that I don't see as townie at all.

Why not?

A list of a few reasons why talking is good:

• Townies start off with little to no info.
  
• Townies can only get info from conversation and questioning.
  
• Townies always do better when there is more conversation and people's claimed positions that can be examined later.

A list of a few reasons why waiting is bad:

• Waiting for a scum slip does not contribute to conversation.
  
• Waiting does not pressure scum to force a scum slip.
  
• Waiting gives the impression that you don't care what your vote is going to be, and that you are waiting for a wagon.
  
• Scum would rather that there is not much discussion and waiting helps them out in this regard.

Basically I can not think of a single reason why waiting around for the scum to slip up is better than going after them and forcing them to slip up. What do you gain from waiting for a slip? Why is it more advantageous for you to wait over scum hunting yourself?

[Scien]

I'll keep this one short. Just to make sure that I am keeping it straight, Phily's case against me is that I post long, and that I agree with someone's current view of the game?

[Scien]

This was still a random vote:

Unvote

I want to hear from the inactives before I place my real vote... but as it currently stands.
FoS Phily. I think everyone knows why... I just never explicitly fingered him.

[Scien]

Fine... if you insist.

Vote: PhilyEc

For the reasons I have been harping about. I won't recap them here to save space

However I still hold I would like to hear from the inactives before we do anything drastic... at least to get some info from them in day 1. And I WILL temporarily remove my vote if we haven't heard from them and we are getting close to a lynch.

[Scien]

Um... there is still the same things I disagree with the above two posts. And I might post on it when I have more time. But this one is worth posting now:

Either
1) Hes scum defending a town player.
2) Scum team have stupidly revealed themselves through buddying.
3) Both are town and merely semantic fanboys. (Unlikely due to context of disagreement being so dwelled upon).

I know that you are just simplifying things. But just because I am townie doesn't mean that Mastin is. Don't jump the gun there. You know what I'm going to tell you, that I have a protown role. But if the town is truly irritated at my play and when I flip townie, don't go and assume Mastin is town as well. Just saying.

[Scien]

Sorry Phily, and I am not trying to be difficult. But can you repeat your last post. I think I might have a general idea of what you are trying to say, but want to make sure with your own words. I currently am having a hard time understanding what you are trying to say.

I guess the things I am not understanding are the term '1-3', what 'that situation' is, did I tell people to not mislynch Mastin (I thought my last post was doing the opposite, telling people to still look at Mastin if I was mislynched). I guess the last two sentences are saying that the current inactives are now getting scummy in your eyes?

Like I said, I'm not trying to be a bastard by bugging you, but just was having a hard time understanding your phrases.

[Scien]

Welcome to the game!

And happy B-day OGML.

[Scien]

I don't know about wall of text... but I will give a defense for myself, as well as comment on some of your other points.

1. Mastin - The "self-voter". I thought he defended himself well (I was satisfied with his initial response), and he's been actively scumhunting. Good pro-town vibe.

I generally agree with all these statements. I had to give Mastin a good grilling in order to verify that his 'I used the self-vote as a scum hunting tactic' defense seemed sound. I didn't catch any inconsistencies, and also him using that as a defense seemed unlikely so I believe him.

5. Sirdanilot - Immediately voted both Mastin and Santos after their very first post, which is bizarre to me.

Hmm. Yes. But he also seems to value the vote very highly. I tend to use it to back up discussion, but he seems to be the kind of guy that wants your vote where you are looking at the moment.

6. Scien - Oh boy. Attacked Mastin for the self-vote, attacked Ubaten for the odd vote, attacked PhilyEc for venting, attacked Santos for being cautious. Good God man.

Yep, its how I get information out of people. Attacking seems kind of harsh here in my opinion by the way. I want people to tell me the motives behind their actions in their own words. If I think they are still suspect I continue asking them questions. If they 'stay the course' in my mind, and what they say is the logic behind their actions meshes with what they have said in the past about their motives, its how I get a feel for the truthiness so to speak. I look at everyone, and when I see something funny I ask about it. I don't really think that's a scummy thing to do, but I'll leave that for you to explain. Its not going to stop how I play in any case.

7. Lleu - Lurker, though tried not to look like one by chiming in a couple times.
8. Barim - Lurker. Weird for an IC isn't it?

Lleu is V/LA. Did you miss that (I assume this is true), or is your comment more subversive. Barim has been prodded and apparently has not shown up yet. I suspect he will be replaced soon.

Scien, wow, Scien is attacking everything in sight. On the surface it looks like aggressive scumhunting but when it's over nit-picky things and when it doesn't stop, well, I think I have to vote: Scien.

In day one you don't have many actions to look at. Sometimes you need to ask about the nit-picky stuff. If I see an action I don't understand, or a stance that I don't agree with, that person gets a question. If I get a response that falls into the same categories, either I don't understand, or a stance that I don't agree with, that person gets another question. This generates discussion. Based on this discussion I can get a feel for the player's motives. Sometimes people shake around a bit over nit-picky things and are not careful about how they answer. This is a sign of scumminess, as townies will just tell the truth and have no need for shakeiness.

But above all else, my examining of peoples ideas and motives gets info into the forum for examining later if necessary. I fail to see how me questioning many people's actions, over what you would call nit-picky stuff is a scum tell.

Why do you think that my discussion is scummy? Why do you think its a bad thing to look at all townies, as opposed to focusing on one?

[Scien]

And for the double post!

6. Scien - Oh boy. Attacked Mastin for the self-vote, attacked Ubaten for the odd vote, attacked PhilyEc for venting, attacked Santos for being cautious. Good God man.

I never really even questioned Ubaten, I think you have me confused for someone else. Everyone attacked Mastin for that vote. Phily and Santos were questioned by me for the same reasons. A failure to understand their hatred of long posts.

Many people have asked questions to multiple people in this game. For instance lets take the top of your list, Mastin, and look at who he was questioning:
During an initial defense period he starts examining Ubaten. He presses him fairly hard, and in fact I think he still has questions out to him.
A few posts later starts questioning Santos.
Presses Phil in his next post.
Really presses Phil with a HUGE post, then follows with another couple posts for Santos.

IMO I did similar:
Started off pressuring Mastin hard.
Questioned Ubaten a bit, but mostly due to confusion
Once Santos showed up, questioned him about his intro posts and views. This continues.
Phily Pipes up, and I have questions about his intro posts and views. This continues and actually gets pretty heated... we are both voting each other at the moment I believe.
I still have questions out to Santos. I think.

I fail to see the big difference between Mastin's scumhunting, and my nit-picking. Actually I don't care much. But I would like to hear you explain the difference. This will give you more insight to your motives. I'm just questioning how one of our actions is good enough to place them at the top of your list when the other's actions is bad enough to place them at the bottem. Everyone has been looking at the whole towns actions. And quite frankly that is the way its supposed to be. Again why do you disagree?

[Scien]

Missed it, but I'll stand by my statement. Four days, five posts: 1 confirm, 1 random vote, 1 roll vs role post, and 2 that had something to do with what's going on.

Yep, we've called him inactive before. But its not really lurking if you are not around.

That's a lot just to talk about a throwaway vote.

Maybe. But I needed to be satisfied that his defense was legit. I was not willing to take it at face value. He needed to explain why he used that tactic, it was not typical. It is however a tactic that under a different light could be scummy. I pressed because I had not considered that a tactic like that would be used by a townie. I continued because I was getting a feel for it, and trying to determine if Mastin's claim of using it from a townie perspective could hold water.

It looks like you're:

a. Desperately trying to start a bandwagon;
b. Stifling discussion;
c. Trying to lead/control the town

Perhaps, but there are other possibilities of what I was trying to do by examining the people that are around to talk to. I've already said the one that I am doing. You can buy it or not, but it is to look at the people who are posting and to examine if what they are posting makes sense. Examining motives.

1. The majority of Mastin's posts were defensive. The majority of yours are offensive.

Yep that would be the tactic that I was examining when I was questioning Mastin. It's not typical for a townie to try and encourage people to pursue them in order to try and weed out scum. At least in a newbie game. It might be more prevalent in other games, I frankly don't know.

You, OTOH, immediately jump onto opening statements or other conversations.

And then examine what is said, to determine if it fits right in my mind with the said player's mindset, and claimed goals.

This conversation is kinda my argument in microcosm. Your defense to my points is basically offense.

Well, ok. I don't really know where to start on this so I'll just dump my few thoughts. Sorry if they are incoherent.

Quite frankly I am not 'defending defensively' because I don't know how to defend against 'You look at too many people and ask too many questions'. Yes you are right, I suppose it can look like I am looking for the easiest target. I can tell you I'm not, but I can not prove it. I have already said if someone's play doesn't make sense to me, I ask about it and will continue asking until I think I know where the person is coming from. I don't know how to say it more clearly than that.

I have defended people as well, but only when I believe people are mistaking others words. I have got called out for defending Mastin. I have reworded questions for Ubaten when neither party seemed to understand the confusion. I did not push for a lynch when it was easy. This is because I am currently examining, and not 'attacking'.

I still don't know why you think it would be better if I examined people through defense as opposed to offense. I believe both generate discussion.

I don't know why you think that desperately trying to start a bandwagon. If this was the case I would have had a few good opportunities.

I don't know why you think that I am stifling conversation by getting people to explain their actions. On the contrary here I think I am promoting it, even if the party has to defend.

I don't have the vaguest of how I could be controlling anyone here. I have never once tried to force anyone's opinion.

I am looking at the explanations and reactions to my questions for my benefit mainly. The fact that they are in print for the town to read is also a perk, but you have to make the judgments on your own. I won't tell you how to think.

[Scien]

To be honest, I don't think that scien's play style is scummy. Yes, he flip flops with his vote a lot.

I have voted two times in this game. The random vote, and then the person I was investigating, and the last only because you pressured me to place one as opposed to holding for a while before I applied more pressure. I assume you mean I flip flop with who I question?

...then not talk about the content of those posts and/or the reasons I had.

I agree with this for the most part. It would be nice to see the actual quotes he is talking about. He mentioned a few that I had in regards to Ubaten. But both of those were simple questions that didn't get too far, because I didn't feel the need to ask further questions for explanation. However apparently they qualify as an 'attack' on Ubaten. I doubt the rest of the town would agree that it was truly an attack if they had the text in front of them. I also would like to see the Sirdanilot quotes that you are curious about Papa Zito. I might see something I didn't see before.

[Scien]

I don't know why you think that desperately trying to start a bandwagon. If this was the case I would have had a few good opportunities.

Disagree. Nobody's following you yet, that I can tell.

Uh, so your saying that my pure goal is to start a bandwagon... and if anyone else starts voicing concerns about them, I would ignore that opportunity in order to start my own fresh wagon? I don't understand.

If I was wanting to start a wagon, why would I move on from person to person? Why would I not sit on the first person that some others from the town start voicing concern at?

Mastin would have been a good choice, almost the entire town was after him. I was the first one on him, but I was the first to move off him, when I was satisfied he might be telling the truth about the tactic. I quit questioning him even when others were still pursuing him.

The rest of the players I have looked at have some suspicion on them true, but I only asked questions, never voted or asked townies to do the same. The person I have placed my first real vote on didn't have a huge townie push on him, it was mainly just me. But I didn't wait for others to voice disapproval of him before making a vote, nor have I moved my vote off when the town didn't bandwagon him. There is a big difference between questioning someone and pushing a bandwagon. You don't agree?

I still don't understand where this argument is coming from.

Why does me questioning people look like I am starting bandwagons when I have moved my vote in this game ONCE? If I wanted bandwagons why have I never threw a second vote on someone even when I had the chance? If I wanted bandwagons why have I not stayed involved in the discussions that seem to have the most townie involvement against the accused?

If I'm spending all my time defending myself, I don't have time to examine anyone else.

Disagree. Its not an either or. You can answer questions and ask them in the same post. There is nothing stopping you.

If I'm jumped on every time I post something, it makes me not want to post.

Only if you have things to hide. You should not be afraid of unfounded attacks. If what you are saying makes sense from the shoes of a townie, there isn't anything in the world the scum are can do to make you look scummy. Don't hide from questions. Don't fear inquisitive people.

If someone is asking me something and you jump into that conversation too, I would feel like people are ganging up on me.

Uh, ok. But you can still answer the questions, and if they make sense from the stance of a townie people back off you. Never be scared of town pressure unless you have things to hide. No one can hurt you if you tell the truth.

And if you are involved in every topic, you can direct its flow.

Well thats kind of the goal right? I want to fork its flow to answer the questions I am asking, and to examine the motives behind the players actions. But if you are claiming that getting involved stops others from also driving the conversation, then no I disagree again. Just because multiple people are asking questions of someone doesn't mean that parties need to stop asking questions if they have them. If anyone has questions about something that happens in the game, then ask them. Even if someone else is in a heated discussion. Waiting to ask or omiting questions can only end up harming the town. Forking a conversations flow does not stop the original direction of the conversation.

Either you're an extremely aggressive townie or you're what I suspect you are.

Yep, that just about covers all the possibilities. Heh.

[Scien]

Welcome to the game MM.

And Papa Zito, It shows for me that your vote is on me. It would be you and Phily at the moment.

[Scien]

Ah, he might have edited though >.< my bad.

[Scien]

Llue is still V/LA I think.

OGML: Llue is still V/LA right?

I will be away for a day or so. I am heading home to visit the fam for Easter.

Have a good weekend, I mean it! We'll be waiting for ya.

[Scien]

Uh, I have planned, and do still plan to go back and gather the questions that I still have out to people but I need to comment now.

Santos WTH? Why did you claim with two votes on you as opposed to trying to address peoples concerns? Why did you self vote with two votes on you? You are going to panic under that little pressure?

Why did you ask about role setup if you already have some knowledge of it? No sane person would give you an answer that would tell you what there role was if that was what you were after. Every protown role will consider it suspicious that you asked a question that seemed to be looking for role information. You don't think that would be suspicious?

Why did you feel the need to do all of the above? Please answer each question in turn. And don't panic.

[Scien]

My question was simple and that was to speculate about the scenarios since we have done so much else today. I thought it would be interesting to see what people thought of the setup.

No. It flat out doesn't make sense to ask this. I assume it was just a newbie mistake for the moment. I typed out a long explanation, but Mastin's short one in 172 is the same but more concise.

I was not role fishing

Maybe not, but as per above, since that question can only harm the town and not help it, it looks bad.

Why did you ask about role setup if you already have some knowledge of it?

Uh, why do you think this would be a good idea as opposed to a bad idea? I was not seeking role claims by asking what I did.

I don't understand this question. I think your question about game setup, was a bad question. I think there was no way that it would have been a good question at this stage of the game.

In summary,
-Santos's actions as cop make sense,[1]
-Santos's actions as scum make nearly as much sense,[2]
-Santos's overall feel and attitude towards the game was rather anti-town,[3]
-I am divided between believing and disbelieving the claim,[4]
-Yet regardless of what I think, it would be a bad idea to lynch the cop claim day one.[5]

Hmm. [1]Yes I can see this kinda, although I think it was the wrong move Santos. [2][3]Agree. [4][5]I think it is the wrong move to lynch him today solely for this claim. If its true there is a good chance that the scum are going to off him, or try to off him tonight depending on setup. If the claim is not true, the real cop shouldn't be speaking up necessarily, however. I get a all around feeling that we should look elsewhere for now, but maybe revisit the issue after we have more info in day 2 or 3.

If you're seriously thinking about lynching me, then you might as well ask your moderator to replace me so you guys don't eff yourselves.

We can do quite well without a cop, its just better to have it. And you 'effed' the town and yourself if you are telling the truth.

If you are townie, then you shouldn't have a problem role claiming it.

But thats the only answer you SHOULD get. Everyone's best answer after that question would have been 'Oh IDK, probably any one of the 4 possibilities' and in essence claimed vanilla townie for now. And other answer would have pretty much been a claim.

Obviously, if we have a doctor in the setup, claim townie.

Just don't claim. No one here needs to claim anything.

Ok. I said it before but I know people skim my posts. At this stage in the game I don't want to lynch Santos, even though I don't trust his claim.
Reasoning? Basically long story short, there are a bunch of possibilites to get info out of this strange turn of events but they all happen at night. Lynching Santos now just gives the scum a free night if Santos is telling the truth. And if he is not telling the truth, it should be pretty obvious either tomorrow or the next day. That's my opinion.

[Scien]

First off Santos, I don't know if I believe you, but I definitely want to see you live for today. It causes interesting things to happen tonight and tomorrow and might even result in a no action night.

Now to answer some questions about your play:

THe biggest issue I feel I was doing by replacing out was so you guys don't lynch a cop. Tell me I'm wrong?

You're pretty much wrong here. If people wanted to lynch you, you replacing would not help your cause, in fact it would probably harm it. After the replace the new person would have a hard time explaining what you might have been thinking in some of your plays. By you sticking around instead, you can mount a better defense of your past actions. Plus if the whole town was really out to get you, its just nasty to force someone to replace into that.

Now all I can be is a townie. So if you'll have me back, I'm game to play. I just didn't want you guys to make the mistake.

Please do stick around. And no, we don't necessarily know if you are telling the truth yet, so we can't be sure that you are townie yet. We'll know in a couple of game days or so.

They know its 1 or 3 while we can only assume its 1 or 3. Right?

Wow I have not been giving you enough credit. I kept typing out possibilities and you kept addressing them later in posts. The above quote is true. But we won't have any info out of it until tomorrow. Which is why so many are against your lynch now.

Basically, I feel me claiming now, and with me dying at night, can actually help you guys win the game. What do you think?

We can use it, but it would have been better to have you investigate at least a few nights first. This is kinda trying to make the best of a bad situation now.

oh and if the scum try anything out of the ordinary (like not role blocking or killing me) it would seriously be them making a huge risk of me not investigating one of them tonight

Correct kinda.

When I get more time today I'll go back and gather my thoughts on the game so that I can get my questions out again to the people I still suspect.

[Scien]

First off, Santos, please stay. You are in a position to play better than any replacement could in the coming game. Replacing will not solve anything. Stick it out, you've pretty much saved yourself for a night or two anyway.

Ok, on my reread I didn't see anything that jumped out at me. I thought I had a question about a post of Phily's but on reread the post seemed to make sense. However, just so you know Phily, if you are still listening, the fourth scenario that I was talking about is Scien townie, Mastin scum. I was just warning you that if I am lynched, don't blindly assume that when I flip townie, Mastin is clear. Give him any scrutiny that you need to.

Right now my vote is on Phily, and my scummy list is:
Phily,
Ubaten
in that order.

I don't necessarilly trust Santos' claim, but I would like to see what happens the next few nights around him. I've kept him off my scummy list because of this.

I want to hear more from:
Phily,
Ubaten or his replacement.
Lleu he has not been replaced after 48 hours, so he must be around?

OGML: Has Lleu responded to you yet?

MM. She's been around, I would just like to hear more.

So to those four guys, what is your current thoughts on the game? Any ideas where you want go from here? We are approaching deadline, what are your thoughts on that?

I'm getting pro-town vibes from:
MiteyMouse (kinda),
Sirdanilot (a bit, more recently)
Papa Zito (a bunch, but not my play style)
Mastin (a bunch for the moment)

While these people don't see necessarily eye to eye with me, they do seem to be actively looking around at others posts, and seem to be interested in getting info out to the town. Sounds pretty pro-town to me.

[Scien]

Well, before I spill the beans on who I think is more pro town, I would like to get an okay from at least a few people...if you don't mind.

I ditto Papa Zito then. The more viewpoints given to the town the better. Besides if we have no doctor, you might bite it tonight. So getting your thoughts in text will be beneficial to the town later on.

[Scien]

I still support an Ub lynch.

Uh? Even before he is replaced?

[Scien]

But anyway I'll just sit back for a bit and get used to your playing styles, but I'll still post.

Then how about a read through and a quick posting of your thoughts so that we can "sit back and get used to" your playing style?

We can't ask you about what Ubaten was thinking, but we can ask you about what you think about the play so far. We need your input so we can make an informed decision today.

And deadline is in a few days. We can't let you wait around too long.

[Scien]

My top suspect Phily:

• Main cases against people coming in was about post length. Repeatedly urged for posts with less content. While what he probably meant was that he wanted posts that were more concise, I don't like the fact that he was ignoring actions and rather just focusing on the amount of contributions themselves.
  
• Since then seemed to back off in post 109. But has only made one post since. This is either lurking, or perhaps he is busy.
  
• His last post still seems to suggest that he is looking at amount of contributions, and not actions. This is due to his said suspicion of Sirdan, just because his pursuit of Papa was spread over many posts.

You guys are going to have to win me over if you really think we should lynch Henrz (Ubaten). I guess the only griefs I have of him at the moment is that he wanted to appear liked in the first few posts, like he was afraid of town pressure. Also, I don't like the urging of Henrz to disregard the plays of Ubaten. Maybe that's not what he was going for, but its just funny sounding. But since don't see much wrong at face value during Ubaten's defense, I kinda got that slide for now. I don't think that the disregarding alone is enough for the lynch.

So uh, did someone have a more substantial case against Henrz (Ubaten) that I am missing?

[Scien]

I know that you are still trying to sort things out, but

OGML: Do you think we can get a vote count?

I want to verify that what I think is the current count is correct.

Thanks.

[Scien]

Regarding Lleu's lurking: I think he/she was just incredibly overwhelmed by the tl;dr posts starting as early as page two.

V... L... A... WTF is everyone still harping about Lleu saying he was lurking. The guy posted a bit and then left on vacation. That's not lurking, he just flat out wasn't here. I know Reckoner is just defending himself, but good god people. Lurking would be a tactic if he just tried to stay out of the limelight enough to avoid notice. Lleu was replaced. That's not lurking.

Scien's few posts of "Sorry, I'm a noob" and "I need to quit posting at work", neither of which seemed to hold any content to them.

Meh, among many other posts that contributed content. You pick out these two phrases and complain about me not providing content? Even the posts you pulled them from had content in them.

[Scien]

The deadline is tomorrow night. I think it is important for the town to lynch someone. A no lynch really doesn't provide as much info for the town as it would if we use our right to lynch.

[Scien]

Yep. I believe Phily is the best choice. That's why my vote is on him. I just don't see any good reason to lynch Lleu/Reckoner. And I also don't see any really good reason to lynch Ubaten/Henrz. Which I have posted before and no one has come up with a convincing case since.

[Scien]

I think the vote count as it stands now is this. Please note I could be wrong, so go back and verify yourself.

Scien: Phily, Papa Zito
Phily: Santos, Henrz, Reckoner, Scien, Sirdanilot (for the lynch?)
Henrz: Mastin

Not voting: MiteyMouse

[Scien]

Phil's gone. I'm fairly certain that he didn't need to be lynched. I think he just disappeared from all games he was in...

He was posting elsewhere multiple days. But the real reason for my vote were the reasons he was giving for his cases. He was looking at amount of content provided and not examining peoples actions. Do not like.

because it is deadline we can't afford this

Yes. I would have loved to hear more from Phily. I am not one hundred percent confident he is scum. We are just at deadline, and I think he looks the scummiest.

[Scien]

Oh... no... That is very bad luck. That made the Santos situation worse if he is telling the truth.

Did you get an investigation Santos? There is no point in hiding any results you may have gotten. If you are telling the truth you are doomed tonight anyway.

[Scien]

One place to start would be Mastin's chief suspicion. There would at least be some motive for them to remove such a vocal advisory. However today, like yesterday, I don't really understand the case against them.

Oh and yes, I was fishing for Santos to say something other than no result. He passed. Unfortunately what that really means is his premature claim has cost us our Cop, but no sense crying over spilled milk.

They had a role blocker. They knew the doc would protect Santos most likely. They just blocked him and hit someone else in hopes of hitting the doc. Lucky freggin scum.

And before I go to bed:

Maybe... maybe the doc contacted the "cop" Santos and that's how they knew?

I don't understand this. What do you mean contacted? That would be expressly against the rules. I doubt it happened. You seem to be stretching far there. It's not uncommon for scum to hit the most pro-town sounding guy, and Mastin had several people saying that they got pro-town vibes from him.

[Scien]

Why are we so quick to believe Santos?

I'm not. I still have doubts. But here is the game as I saw it yesterday.

On the scum team, there is either a role blocker or there is not.
Roleblocker:
Scum know that possible role assignments fall into 7 townies, or 5 townies/cop/doc. Claiming cop in this situation is scarey, either no one is around to counter claim, or no matter what you claim, there is a counter.

Two vanilla scum:
Scum know that there is either a cop or a doc. But there definitely is one. Any claim might have a counter, or might not.

Seems kind of a risky play to claim with so little pressure and so early. However they might have tried it. It would allow a scum to pass through night 1 and possibly night 2 unscathed.

As for what I think combining what we know about last night with the above:
Santos telling truth - Scum blocked him, knew there was a doc due to them having a roleblocker, and hit the most townie looking, knowing the doc would likely be protecting the cop. They got lucky and hit the doc. In this case they will either
A) Let Santos live keeping him blocked hoping that this causes townies to suspect him, or
B) They will hit him tonight knowing there is no one to save him now, and the fact that many are starting to believe him a confirmed townie is too risky.

Santos lying - They may or may not have a roleblocker. We still don't know. He claimed cop, and we know we had a doc. This would tell us either
A) They have a roleblocker and there is a real cop out there
B) They don't have a roleblocker and there no cop, leaving this Santos free. (They would not have known this when he claimed however)

What we do about the above I'm not sure yet. But it is worth noting that just blindly believing him because he made it through the night is the wrong thing to do. My gut has been saying that our course of action should be, to leave him alone one more night, and see if he bites it. I'm not sure that is the correct choice just thinking aloud.

I can say though that I think that if Santos is lying and there is a real cop, he should be on his toes. Be very careful about advice that people give you, only you know what your play should be.

[Scien]

...if he is the cop no one has counterclaimed and if they don't now... It's a bad idea.

Are you suggesting that you think a cop should claim right now if he exists? Could you tell me why you believe this if I read the above correctly?

[Scien]

Woops. Didn't see Reckoner's post.

Yes if Santos is telling the truth it implies there is a role blocker. I believe I have that that condition. However, if he is lying we don't know if there is or if there isn't, it could be either or.

[Scien]

Is that wrong to do?

I don't know... I was mainly asking to hear others opinions. There is a trade off here that I don't know which is the most beneficial side to be on. First... if there is a real cop, and he doesn't claim, it allows for more legit investigations while the scum look to lynch or block him. However, if the cop claims now, he has at most one investigation, and we would know Santos is scum.

Assuming we trust a counter claim at this point, which is not a given.

Basically, I think the cop needs to forge his own path, as his investigations and his unique situation will drive his play. Us as blind townies or blind scum don't know the full situation and I don't think we should be urging a cop to do anything that he thinks is against townie interest.

*Please note that the above is pretty much all speculative. I'm not positive that Santos isn't cop, and still have the gut feeling to give him one more night.

But I would very much like to hear from players why they think a cop should claim now. It will give the town insight into claimed goals.

That was my point from the beginning with this question, even though it was pointed at you alone Henrz. Do you think a cop should claim now, and why do you think it would be in townie interest? This is not necessarily an attack, I really want to hear your opinions on the matter.

[Scien]

It's now Day 3 and Santos still lives. What does this tell you?

The possibilities are that he is scum and therefore lived because of that, or that he is town and the scum are content on roleblocking him hoping that our suspicions grow.

Like I said before I don't know the right course of action here. I suspect he would be night killed tonight, but in the case that he is not our suspicions have to grow on him.

I don't know how to play it.

So, on a side note, where is everyone else on the issue? I know some people might not have come back to the game yet, but do you guys have any insight or comments about the night or yesterday?

[Scien]

because if he is a cop he will be much more beneficial to the town than the best player

If he is blocked every night he is no more beneficial than a vanilla townie. If he is telling the truth, they have a blocker. They might leave him to us, since we almost have to become suspicious of him if he makes it through tonight.

[Scien]

Meh, where to start.

First off, sorry but I am kind of surprised at MM's lack of content. Yes, she has been popping up now and again, but never really to scum hunt. She mostly just posts an observation that typically has been discussed or mentioned before.

Henrz and Reckoner, are also kind of quiet. Although I guess I fall into that boat as well. Sorry it was a busy weekend for me.

Now to the posts:

Don't give them ideas...

But he was basically telling them what he would of done, and if they didn't think of it, they may well do it.

Psb. Basic strategy. They would see an action that is most beneficial to them before we did. The only reason I mentioned what you are complaining about is because this is a newb game, and people have not looked at all possibilities before. Just making sure people don't have ill conceived notions on what could happen in this game. The most informed town is the best town.

Was feelin' iffy about [Henrz] yesterday, and for some reason his "Don't give them ideas..." post stuck out to me like a sore thumb.

Well, it wasn't really Henrz so much as it was Ubaten... Henrz has played it very conservatively since replacing in, which I think is to cover for how scummy Ub was acting.

Am I the only one that is still going 'wha?' at the moment over this? No I guess Papa Z also asked this: Please bring up the points against Ub/Henrz that you are still questioning. I personally didn't think the case on him was very strong, but perhaps you see something I don't?

Bottom line is that if he's town, he'll do no good for us (RBed or NKed) and he might also very well be scum. So I suggest not treating him any differently than everyone else when it comes to suspicions.

Well, ya I agree in a way.

[SirDan has] been against me this whole mafia and has not tried to find another person guilty in the game. [...] Can anyone find anyone else he's been suspicious of during this game?

He's had three votes (that mattered) this game. Mastin, you, and me.

So either he is very apprehensive about his votes after he makes them, or he is waiting for a bandwagon to build on those votes. So far, he has voted against the town doctor, cop and now you. I don't trust this at all. I'm not saying you're town completely, but his track record for suspicion is more in favor for a scum's lucky pick of power roles as opposed to appearing a pro town scum hunter. Am I wrong?

So much 'huh?' here. First you claim that SirD has been against you all game, then quickly concede that you are wrong. What?
Second you seem to be claiming that he has simply been vote hopping and leaving is vote elsewhere not for long. Really? You don't think he was investigating the people that he was on? Do you not think his conversations with those people seemed to have a defined end (minus Papa Z, which I think is on going). If he is using his vote as a tool in investigation, would he not act exactly as he is doing?
Third, him voting for people that in your eyes are power roles, when he had no information on the power roles is scummy in itself? Huh? How? Even pretending he is scum, luck is not a scum tell.

And the PapaZ vs SirD:
I guess my only points so far are the open point about what SirD meant by 'generate discussion', and a comment on your exchanges. I fail to see why he could not have hidden pro-town motives when he placed his vote and started discussion with you. You seem to be saying that that is an impossibility. He obviously chose you for his vote for a reason. The reasons are the things that he started pestering you about. Whither he was doing that for pro town benefit, or because he thought you were easy pickings is another matter. In any case, just because he said it was to generate discussion, doesn't mean that it was

only

to generate discussion.

Second you guys both should take a second to try and understand the post that you are quoting before you reply. Both of you have been missing points from one another, and using that to fuel your negative views of the other party. Then those views manifests themselves on your reply posts, then the other party goes through the same process. It's kind of a cycle at the moment.

[Scien]

Heh sorry, perhaps I should have placed it in asterisks. *Psb* is kinda a raspberry sound. I was using it to sound incredulous.

I'd appreciate if you could show me how you came to this conclusion, because it wasn't my intention.

Hmm, taking into account what you say after this, I think I need to go back and do a quick reread. However I arrived at this conclusion in my current thinking due to the back and forth between SirD and you:

We have had such a large amount of discussion, and then you simply dismiss my vote as something 'to make me talk more'?

I'm not dismissing anything. It's what you said. [...]

Do you truly think that's the only reason I voted you? Do you really think that everything I addressed in our discussions was dropped for 'Maybe this will stir up our discussion a bit, PZ'?

Yes, I truly do because... that's what you said. You're suspicious of me because of A and B but you voted for me to stir up discussion.

I don't buy that he would have just voted you arbitrarily. I'll go back and reread to make sure, but him being arbitrary does not make sense to me. It makes more sense that he was not satisfied with your answers, and voted to put pressure on you to explain yourself better.

An example of this would be helpful, I think. If sirdanilot and I are just talking past each other then we aren't helping anyone.

Hmm I'm not saying your entire argument is like that, there is a bunch of content there, but some 'talking past' is occuring. Don't get me wrong, the talking past is probably due to you two not honestly understanding each other's position. In that case it is best you clear it up. However it would still be wise to try doubly hard to understand each other.

He's had three votes (that mattered) this game. Mastin, you, and me. He voted Mastin for self-voting, you for complaining about messed up quoting (both of these were first posts) and then me to make me talk more (?).

What? Who are you to judge which of my votes mattered and which didn't? Pro town thing to do would've been to list them all and then pick out which of them mattered. Manipulation.

In your quote you did mention the votes that you thought mattered, and by exclusion, the ones that you didn't think as important. He seemed to home in on the first sentence of your post, and fight about that without taking into regards the rest of your post which at least explained why you thought certain votes mattered more. The change over towards the definition of 'what mattered' came in later posts.

[Scien]

I don't

have

to do anything Santos. Would you mind saying something about my questions to you in post 292? It would help me understand your position better.

Ok, to PapaZ on reread:

I still don't think it is as plain and dry as you are claiming, that his vote was purely arbitrary. Even this quote on his vote suggests otherwise:

Maybe this will stir up our discussion a bit, PZ.

I think you know the reasons of my suspicion, I discussed them with you.

I see order of events as this:
A) You and SirD are going back and forth over each others arguments. Both seem to have some points, and I'm not satisfied that the discussion was fully over before B happened.
B) Santos does his first misplay, claims, and pretty much stops the town while we deal with that.
C) People discuss that for a while, Santos misplays again, this time wanting to replace out of pressure.
D) After the town deals with that, SirD votes you with the above quote.

I still think he was trying to start that discussion up again. I believe he might have had questions out to you about your post. However on reread it looks like he was mainly in defensive mode in your last two rounds of exchanges. SirD? What was your remaining points against PapaZ? I hate to be a bastard but could you drop them out for me?

[Scien]

Hmm. Why don't you answer my questions, instead of criticizing me...

I have questions to you at the moment. You are not answering. I would like to hear what you have to say.

PapaZ, has asked me questions about my current view of the game. I had to answer. Mediate or not, I have to answer questions that people pose to me. Cry all you want at that.

[Scien]

I do think your one liner directed at Scien was quite good though. I appreciate Scien clearing things up but it's not scum hunting.

Meh. I don't appreciate it. Especially when I have questions out to two people out of the 4 currently active. And I've expressed concern over MM's play.

Here I will recap in hopes that I will get an answer THIS time I post them:

[SirDan has] been against me this whole mafia and has not tried to find another person guilty in the game. [...] Can anyone find anyone else he's been suspicious of during this game?

He's had three votes (that mattered) this game. Mastin, you, and me.

So either he is very apprehensive about his votes after he makes them, or he is waiting for a bandwagon to build on those votes. So far, he has voted against the town doctor, cop and now you. I don't trust this at all. I'm not saying you're town completely, but his track record for suspicion is more in favor for a scum's lucky pick of power roles as opposed to appearing a pro town scum hunter. Am I wrong?

So much 'huh?' here. First you claim that SirD has been against you all game, then quickly concede that you are wrong. What?
Second you seem to be claiming that he has simply been vote hopping and leaving is vote elsewhere not for long. Really? You don't think he was investigating the people that he was on? Do you not think his conversations with those people seemed to have a defined end (minus Papa Z, which I think is on going). If he is using his vote as a tool in investigation, would he not act exactly as he is doing?
Third, him voting for people that in your eyes are power roles, when he had no information on the power roles is scummy in itself? Huh? How? Even pretending he is scum, luck is not a scum tell.

I still think he was trying to start that discussion up again. I believe he might have had questions out to you about your post. However on reread it looks like he was mainly in defensive mode in your last two rounds of exchanges. SirD? What was your remaining points against PapaZ? I hate to be a bastard but could you drop them out for me?

I'll expand on this last one since you might be avoiding answering just because you think I am lazy. When I went back and reread, your discussion was going on fairly nicely until about two rounds before the Santos catastrophe. Those last two rounds, you posed no new points, and just answered PapaZ's concerns. I appreciate that your vote was probably just to get the town back on track again after we dealt with Santos, however if we continue that discussion you were having from where we left off, it seems like you had nothing new to pursue.

Would you say what you are still dissatisfied about please? Maybe we can get some real content going in this current debate, as opposed to this current harping about who's avoiding who.

Tell you what. Let's make this easier. You have suspicions of me, fine. Air them here in a cohesive post so that I can answer them in a cohesive manner. The banner-waving about "I have suspicions I have suspicions I have suspicions and you won't answer meeeeeee" is getting tiresome. I have a feeling I've answered them all already anyway but let's be sure. Plus I get the feeling that we're wasting time while the real mafia are off in a corner giggling somewhere.

Sigh. QFT (quoted for truth).

Oh and to the town. Getting this discussion back on track is a form of scum hunting. These people are very willing to talk about their play, and everything they say helps the town. But I'm fairly convinced both are pro-town anyway, and nothing anyone has said so far clashes with what I think expected townie behavior would be.

Santos on the other hand, every post of his sounds horribly scummy. Which slightly scares me, as the scum can use that if he is truly telling the truth.

Where are the inactives?

[Scien]

Neither.

Ooooooh kay? You didn't mean your scum hunting ability? What exactly did you mean then?

Did you want to answer any of the questions I had early over some of your points? Or are you going to continue ignoring them? I'm about to vote you since you are apparently refusing to talk on this issue.

[Scien]

I will answer them. No doubt. But I have more in mind to hear from the others as well instead of just talking with you.

Alright. Fair enough. Until that time,

Vote: Santos

.

Again. It's not an either or. You can ask your questions to others while you answer incoming ones. This is smelling too much to me like avoidance over a relatively small issue.

[Scien]

@ Scien, anything else?

Yep. Everything I asked before. You haven't explained any of it yet. Here it is again for you:

[SirDan has] been against me this whole mafia and has not tried to find another person guilty in the game. [...] Can anyone find anyone else he's been suspicious of during this game?

He's had three votes (that mattered) this game. Mastin, you, and me.

So either he is very apprehensive about his votes after he makes them, or he is waiting for a bandwagon to build on those votes. So far, he has voted against the town doctor, cop and now you. I don't trust this at all. I'm not saying you're town completely, but his track record for suspicion is more in favor for a scum's lucky pick of power roles as opposed to appearing a pro town scum hunter. Am I wrong?

So much 'huh?' here. First you claim that SirD has been against you all game, then quickly concede that you are wrong. What?
Second you seem to be claiming that he has simply been vote hopping and leaving is vote elsewhere not for long. Really? You don't think he was investigating the people that he was on? Do you not think his conversations with those people seemed to have a defined end (minus Papa Z, which I think is on going). If he is using his vote as a tool in investigation, would he not act exactly as he is doing?
Third, him voting for people that in your eyes are power roles, when he had no information on the power roles is scummy in itself? Huh? How? Even pretending he is scum, luck is not a scum tell.

[Scien]

Oh and sorry I forgot this one, its newer:

Do you mean your cop ability or Scum Finding?

Neither.

Ooooooh kay? You didn't mean your scum hunting ability? What exactly did you mean then?

[E]ven though my investigative requests at night will most likely be roleblocked now, I can still scum hunt and apply a vote on who I find most scummy.

Isn't that scum hunting? Didn't you just tell Henrz that that's not what you are talking about? I believe this one is just a misunderstanding between you two, but I would like you to clear up my confusion with your own words.

[Scien]

I don't have a lot of time to catch up over the weekend, but I will try. However the vote count at the top of the page is wrong.

@OGML: I voted post 319 last page

[Scien]

I said it was too much of a coincidence. You people are twisting my words.

No actually we are not. We are asking you a basic question that you have dodged since I first asked it. Then you have the nerve to keep trying to bring your flawed logic back into your arguments. Why do you think that this 'coincidence' is scummy? You can't claim that you didn't list it on your scum tells against SirD multiple times already.

Also you really haven't addressed any of my questions yet, Avoidy McAvoiderson.

I suggest you immediately take your vote off, in the case that there is no scum on him, they might "find" reasons and lynch.

Meh. L-2 is not too scary. I think you are overreacting a bit.

i everyone...I'm sorry for my absence but, I haven't been well. I'll try to get a read and post tomorrow. I'm too tired to do it now. I'm sorry.

Well get well soon. But you are still being very quiet. It's scarey. You know that right?

I think Scien also jumped on Ub quite quickly... perhaps too quickly.

Meh, this is the second time someone has brought that up without listing the quotes. I doubt people would think it was 'attacking' or 'jumping on' if they could see the text in front of them. Let me do your job for you:

First us as townies don't know your intentions. We have to decide that on our own. Second, I don't think he was questioning that. I think he was questioning that you felt the need to both post and tell everyone that you have good intentions. Seems fishy, sorry. [...] could you go into more detail about what you think about aspects of the game so far? You say later that you think the random votes can provide discussion, but think that the actual method of die rolling used by Mastin was suspect. If that is the case what do you think of Mastin's defense so far? Unsatisfied on anything? [...] Eh, don't be afraid to post. Talking more helps more, trust me.

I don't know if I can follow your logic, you might be stretching a bit too far. Just to make sure, are you suggesting that the fact that he is causing suspicions to come his way is in itself a scummy looking act? Not trying to defend him or anything, I have a few issues with his actions myself, but it looks as if you are making this claim and I don't agree. [...] Are you just arguing that it was not just the most optimal play?

I wouldn't count either of those as attacks or jumping on people. I was just trying to understand his position better, while encouraging him to explain his posts, and thoughts to the town. After his responses I didn't feel he needed to be 'attacked'.

Its certainly a quick re-direction.

How convenient for you McAvoiderson.

That was what I was asking if V/LA meant you can't use a computer.

It did look as though you meant he shouldn't be posting at all, if that's not the case it was just poor wording. But I think he is justified to consider it a 'call out'. Also I still think that a L-2 is not the most scarey thing in the world. L-1 on the other hand is scary.

[Scien]

Remember the fact that you are unconfirmed? You could in fact be scum. I have asked you questions, you have ignored them. I have asked you to explain your logic, as have others. You ignored them and have since continued to use the possibly flawed logic in your arguments.

Now, even asking for the third or fourth time for you to just comment on my questions you try and play the cop card and pretend that you are clear from all doubt.

No. Answer the dang questions. What were your thoughts when you made the comments I mentioned. You dodging around them for so long makes me think that my

CURRENT VOTE ON YOU

is very well justified.

[Scien]

Where did I say I was 'wrong'?

It was right there in that post but here it is again. Here:

[SirDan has] been against me this whole mafia and has not tried to find another person guilty in the game. [...] Can anyone find anyone else he's been suspicious of during this game?

He's had three votes (that mattered) this game. Mastin, you, and me.

So either he is very apprehensive about his votes after he makes them, or he is waiting for a bandwagon to build on those votes.[...]

First you claim that SirDan had been tunneling you exclusivly, then in your next post you say that he was going around and trying to start bandwagons on everyone, those two positions don't mesh. Care to comment?

Where did I say he was vote 'hopping'?

Also in the post, here:

He's had three votes (that mattered) this game. Mastin, you, and me.

So either he is very apprehensive about his votes after he makes them, or he is waiting for a bandwagon to build on those votes. So far, he has voted against the town doctor, cop and now you.

At this stage in your posting you were trying to say that his vote was traveling around rapidly, and he was 'apprehensive' with it. I assume you were trying to say in fancy words that he was vote hopping hoping for a wagon. You are saying I am wrong? Please enlighten me.

Its hard for someone to 'investigate' when I'm the only cop.

Its called scumhunting. All the kids are doing it these days. Its really not that hard.

If you think he is using his vote as an investigating tool, sure, that is your opinion.

You don't think a vote can be used to aid investigation by putting pressure on someone? In your opinion what do townies use their vote for.

In the 'third' part it was appalling that his votes all landed the power roles. After he voted for said parties, he continued to pressure.

All before he could have had any information on power roles. How is it suspicious in any way? What makes it seem suspicious to you? Maybe people have been asking you this question in the wrong way and that's why you have not answered it, let me try and reword it for you. If neither the scum nor the town have info that a specific person had a power role, why would that person placing a vote on that power role be scummy?

[You, Scien,] are also not confirmed and are extremely pushy in trying to get me lynched today.

Half true. I am not confirmed, and you guys should send questions my way if you are suspicious of anything. However I am not 'pushing' for your lynch. At the moment I am pushing to get you to explain the strangeness of some of your statements. I have had to turn up the pressure on you due to the fact that you ignored my questions for so long.

However, when Papa pointed out the Mitey Mouse features that wreaked of scum I held off on furthering any argument with Sirdanilot. I think Papa has it right and Mitey should swing from the gallows.

I would be all for hitting a lurker in most cases, but not while people are still investigating each other. It is important to gather information on each other while we have the ability. Lynching a lurker seems best left for times when there is little left to say and no one is coming across as very scummy.

Now back to you. I believe you have hit most of the things that I had questions about, but would you mind answering the further questions above? Would you also mind commenting on this as well?

Henrz, why don't you think I still have a useful ability; if any?

Do you mean your cop ability or Scum Finding?

Neither.

Ooooooh kay? You didn't mean your scum hunting ability? What exactly did you mean then?

[E]ven though my investigative requests at night will most likely be roleblocked now, I can still scum hunt and apply a vote on who I find most scummy.

Isn't that scum hunting? Didn't you just tell Henrz that that's not what you are talking about?

[Scien]

I can haz wall of text tiem now?

Yes. First I observed Sirdanilot against me the whole game, but I had asked someone to observe that was a false statement. Papa Zito proved it false.

Fair enough.

Papa showed where Sirdanilot was placing votes. So my initial statement was in fact wrong as I had called for someone to answer me regarding those details. Sirdanilot had his vote on me forever in the beginning and hardly cut me an slack for reasons that are now not too apparent. Maybe he could enlighten me... You are twisting my words Scien and its rather uncomfortable getting this from you. No where had I said 'vote hopping' this is a made up reference that you are trying to place on my person.

I'm not intentionally twisting your words. I honestly don't understand what you are saying. I think you are saying he had his vote on you forever at the very beginning, but then started to place his vote elsewhere, with at least three changes, but was 'apprehensive' about those changes. What are you saying here? That he didn't trust his votes? I was reading it as meaning that he was moving it around rapidly, which even though you didn't use the term is pretty much the definition of vote hopping. I'm I misreading you?

Remember when I asked why you are playing mediator instead of scum hunter? [1]You don't seem to be doing a 'town' sort of scum hunting job. [2]You seem to be on the fence and not able to choose a side to join...[...] [3]I have never seen a 'town' person use this sort of tactic to get the game along by playing mediator between players. Its a serious case of 'buddying' of which you were condemned earlier for 'buddying' with Mastin. [...] You have an eccentric play style, that's for damn sure. [4]The point I'm trying to make in bringing this up again is how were you so seemingly confident in working with Mastin Day 1, but now that he is gone have not put any faith in anyone else that you see as pro town? [5]You have pretty much given up the idea that anyone else is pro town except yourself. I found this to be strange.

There is a lot to comment on here.
1) I had questions out to you and had asked SirD for his case again against PapaZ. We were the only 4 active at that point, Scien, Santos, PapaZ, and SirD. I had questions out to two of these, and one was ignoring me, while the other was probably just not around to answer yet. Ya you can point to me all day and say I was not scum hunting, but it was due to the fact that no one was answering my concerns.
2) Against PapaZ and SirD? Yep, I'm 100% on the fence. I am almost positive both these folks are town. I have said that before now, and I am saying it again.
3) Only moderating those two because of the talking past. From that discussion I was getting feelings that both were townish, but their suspicions were growing due to misunderstanding each other. I was trying to help focus the conversation. I don't think there is anything scummy about that.
4) I don't really understand this part. I had to give Mastin a hard time at round start because I really, REALLY dislike random roll votes. After my discussions with him over that I had a pretty pro-town read from him. You are saying the fact that I was getting that read from him, and now you think I am getting that read from no one, is suspicious? I don't see how, and quite frankly you are wrong. I am getting that read from a couple of people here.
5) I said this a few times above but I will repeat it. I do have pro-town reads on people. Just not you.

No. A vote is a vote, not an investigation. Reading and re-reading a player's posting style, habits and discretion is the most powerful tool townies use. A vote is for pressure. I'm not sure how you're trying to stretch this ability into multiple uses.

Ha! Now who's twisting who's words. I never said a vote WAS an investigation, I said it was an AID to investigation. You are right, questioning and examining is what the townies need to do. However a vote can aid them in doing this. Consider yourself. I asked you questions, and you flat out told me that you were not going to answer them. What would a townie do at that point. He has to vote. The additional pressure might convince the other party that he needs to give the town something in order to relieve some suspicion. It worked on you, as soon as others started to vaguely suggest they had some doubts about you, you finally succumbed to pressure and started this nice conversation with me. Now back to my question about votes and SirD. You don't think he was investigating while he was placing those votes? Did he ask questions of the people that he voted?

You're playing mediator again. I made this suggestion that it was incredibly suspicious that he happened to apply his votes on power roles 2/3 of the time this entire game. My suspicions of him emanated from that.

The hell? How is that mediating? Your suspicions are flat out illogical and I am asking you to explain yourself. There is no way that anyone could have known they had power roles. Not even scum. The fact that he landed on some power roles means absolutely nothing, and yet it is making you suspicious. HOW?!?!

Had there been 'pressure' on me, it would have been a lot easier for people to get the answers from me that you had posed earlier.

Huh? The vote and my 'annoyance' wasn't pressuring? How about other people's murmurings of doubt against you? Why wasn't just providing info to the town reason enough to talk?

Take it, or leave it. You're the only person not able to leave it. Either you're scum trying your hardest to get more pressure on me, or you're a townie with some other unseen agenda now that I have been compliant in answering your questions.

I think you are wrong here, I am not the only one. And I'll tell you what my unseen agenda is, its trying to make sense of all your questionable or illogical posts.

[Scien]

Who was that?

SirD. By not around I mean he just hadn't answered yet since I asked. It was not a long period of time before he posted his case, but I did get called out for not scum hunting during that time by Santos and SirD, even though I had questions out to them both.

[Scien]

This is a bad time to go quiet, guys. Deadline is only a few days away.

About 5. Wednesday. Although yes, it is getting a bit scarey.

*groans* I will answer questions soon.

Good, my vote is not moving until you do.

Confirm vote: Santos

#215
Again repeats the same argument, then says his goal is to make people forget about those mistakes.

...as you said, my goal is to make people forget about Ub's mistakes...

WHOA. I don't know how I missed this before.

The goal of town is to root out and lynch scum. The goal of scum is to appear innocent. "make people forget about Ub's mistakes" = "appear innocent" to me. Wow.

Truth. Both in terms of "holy crap I missed that?" and in the terms that it sounds horrible. Henrz? Want to explain that post?

Yeah, Henrz was just doing the math here. He was basically taking a scenario where you, sirdanilot and I are all town, leaving scum the ability to lay two votes and hammer.

Meh, true, and it is a valid view. I still hold that a L-2 is not that scarey.

I don't think there's much to the majority of this case.

I agree. But this scares me a bit. I think my current list in order is Santos, Henrz, and Mitey. And with such a weak case against my #2 position, I must not have a good handle on this game. I guess another reread is in order. However he still gets that suspicion, if only due to how vocal Mastin was against him in day one, and Mastin ended up biting it night 1. I haven't brought it up, because its a null tell for the most part, and there is no way to prove or disprove it. Just enough to make me want to look at him a bit harder.

I'll post any more thoughts I have today after reread.

[Scien]

Here are things I found interesting when I was rereading Henrz:

[To Mastin] Your strategy is valid for a hypothetical one-man-game, since you know you are a townie.

This quote is a bit strange, the wording makes it seem like Ubaten was sure that Mastin was pro-town. Given although in that same train of thought he does say:

[...]you, who is (presumably) town.

You really will regret losing a town member though, weather it's me or the new Lleu, if Lleu is town of course

Hmm. This was uttered after Santos suggested either a Reckoner or Henrz vote near day end day 1. I get a funny feel from it, but am finding it hard to explain. At the very least he is buddying a bit with Lleu, even when he could have got his point across by defending just himself.

And why did you investigate Danilot?

Woah! Thats a good point that got glossed over. So far the only real response has been:

Also, do you think I am trying to clear Sirdanilot by saying I am a cop and tried to confirm a scum partner? Or that I am a scum claiming a cop and chose to 'fake' investigate Sirdanilot who is a townie?

No, assuming you are townie, why did you decide to investigate SirD? Why did you decide that he needed to be investigated? What went into your thought process? There had to be some logic there right? What was it?

[Scien]

To MM. I'm sorry about the being sick and hospital stuff. Sucks. However, do you think you could at least post your views so far on everyone? Or something. Going back and reading you really provides nothing, and even if its not your fault, it doesn't look good.

[Scien]

This quote is a bit strange, the wording makes it seem like Ubaten was sure that Mastin was pro-town.

[1] But he was... :p

There had to be some logic there right? What was it?

[2] He also says that "Or that I am a scum claiming a cop and chose to 'fake' investigate Sirdanilot who is a townie? And if that was legit, then it was probably that he suspected him...

Well in response to [1], thats kind of the point. Ubaten seemed to

know

at that point in the game. No one but scum would

know

at that stage of the game.

In response to [2], right. And I understand that. I want to hear the logic

assuming

Santos is townie. If the logic doesn't make sense that should be easy to see. If it makes sense then maybe that helps his case a bit. I believe that this might be a question that he would even

like

to answer from me. It has a possibility of clearing his name a bit, if he is indeed telling the truth.

So again, do you remember the logic that went into who you chose for that investigation Santos?

[Scien]

PLEASE READ THIS

Ok I want to throw this out quick before anyone does anything drastic. This game is in two states right now. The first is Lynch or Lose. That means if we do not lynch scum today, we have lost the game.

The second state is 3 votes to lynch. In this condition, any townie vote on another townie can be met with two scum votes for a scum win. They don't have to be worried about looking suspicious by throwing L-1 and hammer votes anymore. If they can lynch a townie they win.

What this means to us? We should be very careful with our votes, and more likely, we should not vote until the town is sure of who they would like to lynch for the day. Instead FoSes should be used and treated like a vote until the town is sure of what they want to do.

As for me, I imagine that I will be a chief suspect early in day 3, so I'll post my comments in a new post on what happened at the end of day 2, as well as defenses to some of the accusations made as well.

[Scien]

Ok. First off, I was not pushing Santos' lynch, and never really was. I would have been very content to just question him and leave my vote off of him, but he repetitively avoided my questions and concerns:

I will answer them. No doubt. But I have more in mind to hear from the others as well instead of just talking with you.

Lynch me. Then lose. Or in the mafia players' case WIN WIN WIN. This page makes my eyes bleed.

Both of those are the more recent cases of him ignoring questions that I had asked instead of just providing answers. If he would have provided answers that I didn't think sounded scummy, and explained his point of view to the point that I could believe that it was not made up, then the vote would have been removed, and my pressure would have been let off. Instead he ignored my concerns, and then pretty much sets up a OMGUS condition that it sounds like a few of you are buying into. But more on that below.

Santos is at L-1 right now, so don't vote him unless you're sure. Me, it looks like he's trying to end discussion as fast as possible by self-voting [...]

Seems to me of more of him just refusing to play this game. But that is besides the point.

If someone did drop the hammer and you turned out to be the cop, what exactly were you trying to prove with this stunt?

That Scien is leading you all astray. [...] So why not lynch myself to prove that Scien is scum?

How? How does that prove anything? Is it not possible that I thought that the initial cop claim could have been a false claim, and that every post after that was scummy? What would a townie have done in that situation? He would have questioned the person making that claim. What would happen if the questions were dodged and avoided, and any info gained from the person claiming cop sounded suspicious? More pressure would be necessary.

How exactly is the fact that I pressured Santos suggest that I was acting scummy? I would like an answer to this from anyone who is going to attempt to use Santos' flawed logic against me.

I think I know who's going to be in the final 3...

Eh?

So either Scien is scum or Reckoner is. Good luck town.

Inconsistent even in death. Didn't you just post a top 3 that included another? Even ignoring that, how can you be 100% positive that its an either or. The truth of the matter is that you couldn't. Again, town should be careful if they are going to use this logic. It seems very flawed to me.

Scien was going against him most of the game, the main person with the case.

So? I am just a confused townie. When I questioned him, he dodged and avoided and sounded scummy as hell. How is me pressuring for answers proof of myself having an opposite alignment from Santos. Think about this carefully.

Because he was so very close to Mastin all Day 1 and they were like a team. My reference of them 'buddying' earlier was not mistaken. I feel Scien is the only player that would have had the motive to kill Mastin because he was the most pro sounding player and strongest advocate in scum hunting. It makes the most sense when Scien was, IMO, acting pro town all that day.

Again, flawed logic. Any scum player would have motive to kill the most townie looking person in the game. I fail to see how Mastin dieing would benefit me, or even if you assume me scum, how it would benefit 'only me'. Also, 'acting too townie' is a known logical fallacy on this game, and will lead the town astray. Too_Townie

[...] To prove a point that I believe Scien is one scum member.

Fair enough, I have to give you that. You have proven that you

THINK

that I am scum. However you didn't even really present a case against me, and your lynch doesn't prove guilt of anyone.

Also, looking back, if it was at all possible, I think Mastin should have protected himself this game.

First of all that was not possible. Second of all, protecting the cop claim would have been the wise thing to do at that stage of the game.

---

I realize that I am sounding overly defensive here and speaking strongly and this may cause some of your suspensions will rise because of that. But the matter of fact is at this stage in the game, we don't have any room for error. Any mistake will cost us the game. And at least two of you look like you are willing to jump on Santos' flawed logic today. This WILL cost us the game. I am warning you. Think very carefully about the logic or lack thereof behind peoples actions before you follow anyone's suggestions.

If you still have concerns about my play, please answer with questions, or FoSes, BUT NOT VOTES. Not until you are sure that it is in the town's best interest to lynch me. If a single townie votes me, it will be game end. However if I am scum weaseling out of votes, the town can discuss it and place the three votes on me simultaneously. Make sure you have some more of the town backing up your vote before you do anything drastic.

[Scien]

I also propose that we limit the talk of yesterday's lynch until end game.

Agreed. Kinda that is. It seems from the end of yesterday that I am going to be put under a bit of heat here today, and a lot of that is going to be coming from a 'Hey look at me I'm cop, and OMGUS for questioning me Scien!' kind of logic.

I don't care if people need to question me to satisfy their suspicion. However, if you are going to rely solely on Santos' view on the game, then I am going to question it and force you to add your own two cents. I frankly am saying that Santos' logic is incorrect, and if people here follow it blindly it will be our downfall. Build on it all you want, but don't rely solely on it.

[Scien]

FoS MiteyMouse & Henrz. Still.

Oh? Whatever happened to:

If Santos flips cop, Scien's ass is mine.

Not feeling so sure any more? It seems to me a bit strange that you would be so sure yesterday, then turn around and be so quiet...

That doesn't have anything to do with the rest of the town's views does it? Waiting for someone else to cast the first stone before you lay in?

So willing to buy into the Santos or Scien setup yesterday, and then completely dropping it as soon as a few people start questioning the logic of it.

[Scien]

So willing to buy into the Santos or Scien setup yesterday, and then completely dropping it [...]

Oh and BTW that is a

FoS

on you Reckoner. And a legitimate question I would like you to answer. Why would you say something like that after you hammered Santos, and then pretend like I am not on your suspicion list today?

I find this specific play VERY fishy at the moment.

[Scien]

While Santos's views may be slightly strange, there is no reason to disown them. Though it is noticeable why he would suspect you because you have been against him and he is the cop, or he knew. Also read the end.

I am not saying completely disown them, but you better add your own logic to his views. Because as they stand it is pretty much OMGUS that he pushed as truth. It was not an either or between me and him, and there is no logic that even suggests it ever was. Also, I never got satisfactory responses from Santos, and if I had you would have seen me lay off. Him ignoring questions is the real reason for my pressure. He was doing that all day yesterday.

[Scien]

*snicker*
I see that the person you were waiting to throw the first stone showed up.

You are inconsistent. I am higher on your list than Henrz and MiteyMouse, and yet you don't mention me? Even though:

I'd be more comfortable with a lynch on [Scien] over anyone else at this moment [...]

At the moment?! Before your reread? Then why the hell was I not first on your list. Something is strange here.

Also:

The sirdanilot kill is very odd, though, and doesn't fit with what I'd expect from Scien.

What? Why not. If you truly think that I am scum, why would hitting one of the more townie looking players not be standard operating procedure. I think you are just leaving your way an out here in case the town doesn't buy your arguments. What exactly did you expect last night assuming that I am scum?

I dunnot like ya play, laddie.

[Scien]

Yes. At the moment.

It flat out doesn't make sense. If I was chief suspicion in your mind, which you say I am and was, then why did I not make your initial list? I'll tell you why, you were waiting for others to express concerns over the Santos situation. The fact is, no one had mentioned anything about it by the time you posted your first list. When Henrz finally showed up and said that he still found something of value in Santos' 'logic', then suddenly BAM! you had suspicions on me all along, so much so that the others on your list are FAR secondary to myself.

Serious HoS now on Scien, though, for pushing back against me so hard. Trying to find a scapegoat to be lynched, eh?

Hand of suspicion for defending myself, and trying to make sense of some of your illogical points? I see why you buy into Santos' logic now. Me trying to find a scapegoat? No, me trying to find scum. I believe you have just made two horrible scummy mistakes.

1) First, your suspicion list shows that you are following what you believe to be town concerns. Yesterday, 'If Santos is cop Scien bites it! *Hammer*', today no one brought me up yet? I'm not on your list. Someone starts talking about me? I'm your chief suspect. I went from auto-lynch, to ignored, to chief suspect again in as many posts.

2) Two, on backtracking after this, and claiming that I was your chief suspect all along you are showing inconsistencies with your post 3 posts up.

Nice try.

[Scien]

Also you were never my chief suspect.

Oh really? Sounds like another inconsistency to me.

I'd be more comfortable with a lynch on you over anyone else at this moment [...]

LIKE I SAID BUT YOU KEEP IGNORING

I'm not ignoring it. You said in your own words:

If Santos flips cop, Scien's ass is mine.

FoS MiteyMouse & Henrz.

In fact, while I definitely still have my doubts about Henrz and MiteyMouse, I'd be more comfortable with a lynch on you over anyone else at this moment[...]

In that order even. Yes, you have suspicions on the other two, but my position on that list went from not even on it, to being WAY more suspicious than the two on it. In the space of a post.

Yesterday, 'I want Scien gone if Santos is cop.' Early today, 'FoSes on Henrz and Mitey.' Next post, 'Eh, not so much on Henrz and Mitey, but Scien is and was my main suspicion.' Your own words man.

---

Actually that vote might prove something. If no quicklynch happens for scum win, it means that one of the two of us are scum. I know which one that is.

[Scien]

I take it back, that vote was not on me long enough to prove anything. I was sniped heh.

I want scumlists now. From everyone.

I have a fairly strong protown read from PapaZ, as I have had for most the game. Which means that I believe that the scum are among Henrz, Reckoner, and MiteyMouse. Order is difficult. I would have to say:
Reckoner, Henrz, Mitey in that order. Although the fact that Mitey is so low has less to do with how she has been playing and more due to the fact that there is less content to judge there. That scares me.

[Scien]

Two of you have xRECKONERx on top of your lists, which worries me because he's not high on mine. Can I get a case for this please?

Eh. Mine is spread over the last two pages, but I'll reiterate. I'm thinking I need to take a step back and make sure everything that I am thinking makes sense anyway, and this will help me out a bit.

1) Yesterday, very quick to subscribe to Santos' logic, and ended up being the hammer vote. After which he said that he was going to be all over me today if Santos flipped cop.
2) Early today, before Henrz poped up, no one had be pimping the either Santos or Scien meme that seemed popular late yesterday. He comes in and gives what I thought was a FoS list, that just included Mitey and Henrz.
3) Henrz comes back, says that he still thinks some of Santos' ideas hold water.
4) Next post of Reckoner's has me in his sights, says that I am a even bigger suspect than the two he mentioned at day start. I saw this as an inconsistancy, and pressured about it.
5) We fight forever, I think I see a few more inconsistencies in there. Among them, him backtracking and saying that I was a suspect all along, even though I was missing from his initial list today. Him claiming that I was not his biggest suspect, even though he would like to have me lynched before the other two (which BTW makes no sense).

Just answer me this question Reckoner. Why was I not on that initial list? Are you saying that I was implied to be on that list? You never officially FoSed me until later today... at least I don't think. While I am taking a step back, where do you think that I failed to see a point of yours?

---

All that said, yesterday I was pretty focused on Santos trying to get answers out of him to satisfy me. I really was not keeping up on the Henrz vs Reckoner that was going on simultaneously, thinking that I could come back to it if Santos did indeed convince me that he was townish.

I think that you probably have a higher view of Reckoner because of his hunting there, and I will need to go back and reread that now to get a better feel for these two players.

I think Mitey's case on Reckoner will help me get a better feel for her. Reckoner's list and reasons should be pretty interesting too. So I eagerly await those as well.

[Scien]

Ok, I am going to keep this pretty light, so that we can try and limit the emotions here and keep the discussion of logic going I have a few points that I want to throw out there at the moment.

I am willing to accept that I was not on your list just due to you waiting for a reread, although I think if I was in your shoes I would have still placed me on it. If I accept that that was not a full list at day start, that means most my current griefs about your play are ill founded. I do have a lingering question though.

Why would you want to / feel more comfortable in lynching someone who was not your chief suspicion? I believe that you both have said something along those lines, although it could be the case that I heard it out of context:

In fact, while I definitely still have my doubts about Henrz and MiteyMouse, I'd be more comfortable with a lynch on you over anyone else at this moment [...] Also you were never my chief suspect.

Also, hehe, a meme is an idea that spreads. Certain ideas in mafia can be defined as memes.

[Scien]

Well, I "felt more comfortable" because Mitey was lurking too much to make an accurate judgment while my case on Henrz had a few holes that I didn't think I could fill. Santos, the cop, had asked us to lynch you after he flipped cop, and I was willing to go on that... but looking back at his play, it was very... sketchy, at best.

I suppose I should stop asking about it, but I am still confused because it doesn't seem like normal play. Let me post how I decompose this statement:
1) Mitey was lurking too much to get an accurate judgement on. (Agree here)
2) The case on Henrz has a few holes. (I don't know about holes, but it does seem pretty weak. Not invalid, just weak.)
-- You posted your FoSes on Mitey and Henrz --
-- Your reread happened later --
3) Santos' logic pointing at me was sketchy. (Agree here too of course)

All that makes sense. And I've already granted that I could believe that you just didn't post me on that FoS list since you had mentioned me in your last post the day before. However, I still feel that if you would feel the most comfortable lynching me at that time, I should be your chief suspicion.

I don't know about the rest of the town, but I am always a bit nervous whenever a bandwagon or case is building against someone that is lower on my scumlist than first place. I would never claim that if I felt the most comfortable with a specific player's lynch, that that person would not be my chief suspect.

Sorry, but I just can't believe that anyone but scum would say such a thing. It sounds too much like a lack of concern about who is lynched.

Well that was a bunch of ado over my concerns, I guess I should just ask a question that would help clear things up in my mind a bit.

If you thought that the information was lacking, or that the case had holes on your 1 and 2 spots, why didn't that move me to the 1 spot? Why do you think that there is a disconnect between your scum list and who should get lynched? Please try and answer this honestly, and logically if possible. I am not trying to aggravate you here, but I honestly don't understand this way of looking at the game.

[Scien]

Sorry catching up with the explosion... will post soon.

[Scien]

Ok... Henrz and PapaZ are now proved to not both be scum (although one or the other could be). Otherwise they would have hammered.

Let me think of what else we can get out of this...

[Scien]

I can't believe that Mitey and Reckoner are doing this to distance. So one of them are scum.

That means one of the outside party (Henrz, PapaZ, Scien) are scum, I trust PapaZ and know my role, and can't make up my mind between Mitey or Reckoner.

I think in this situation we should lynch Henrz. Strange though, I didn't think the case on him was that strong, thats why I was never pursuing him hard, just posting observations for him to comment on.

[Scien]

EBWOP Case on him wasn't that strong. Sorry.

[Scien]

What do you think Papa?

[Scien]

(Also since Henrz is apparently watching the thread you can infer that both of us are not scum, however one or the other might be)

[Scien]

You could always make up your mind to go for Reckoner or Mitey...

Eh, I tried to explain. I don't think that both Mitey and Reckoner are scum, but one is.
Since both you and PapaZ were posting at the same time, if you were both scum you would have hammered the townie with a vote on them.
That means that there is a scum in the current votes, and a scum outside.
I trust PapaZ. I know my role. That leaves you.

You could always make up your mind to go for Reckoner or Mitey...

You don't care? Thats suspicious. Which would you like to see lynched?

[Scien]

My gut instinct would be Reckoner... But it could be either really...

Woah. No you would never try and suggest someone lynch what you claim you think is a 50/50. Assuming you are townie for a sec, using the logic I just posted you could decide almost certainly which between Papa and me are scum depending on who you think is more townie between us. Are you saying you think we are both very town?

[Scien]

I'm not doing anything until Papa comes back and posts on my comments.

I am ready for a vote on you now though.

I will be away for around 3 hours I have a flight lesson, but I will be back after that to check in on things.

[Scien]

Oh, just to get more information out there...

You can look at my play here as information as well. Am I pressing for Henrz or PapaZ to place a vote on one of the easy targets at the moment? No. I am pressing for what I think is the sure scum at the moment. The hard person to lynch currently.

If I was scum I could just throw up the cloud of "Oh either of the people with votes on them I can't decide" and hope for a townie mistake, as opposed to thinking about what the current situation logically means about roles.

[Scien]

Ok. First off Reckoner never unvoted. So that vote that you have for him on Mitey is real PapaZ. That tells us things about who is around and gives us clues about scummyness.

I went over this all before. But just to reexplain before I vote.

Unless Me or PapaZ is ridiculously good scum then I'm positive that Henrz is scum. Due to the following.

I just can't believe that Mitey and Reckoner could both be scum pulling this off. Combining that with the fact that they can't be just town due to all three rest of us all being active, and had so many chances for the hammer. That leaves 1 scum in Mitey/Reckoner, and one scum in Scien/PapaZ/Henrz.

Since I am not sure about Mitey and Reckoner, I turn to the other group.

I know my role, and have a protown read on PapaZ. If he is town he is in the exact same shoes as me, and can see this logic pretty clear. The only one left is Henrz.

If I am right about this and die tonight, the two remaining townies, please be careful with your hunting. I know that Mitey looks pretty bad right now because of lurking, but the content she has posted is fairly towny, even if overly concise. However like I said, her and reckoner are pretty even in my book. I trust you guys to do the right thing.

(Also PS, after all this was layed out and then Papa said he might buy it, everyone turned against Henrz. Don't be fooled by bussing.)

Sorry Henrz. You played a great game, and I don't think you panicked once.

Vote: Henrz

[Scien]

I can't tell you how many times I sayed 'OMG' and 'God damn it!' (that last in a chuckling sort of way) while reading these post game comments.

DANG.

First off... PapaZ. Oh... My... GOD!!! I fell right for the trap. I do remember thinking somewhere in day2 that it was kinda strange that you went from hardcore 'Scien scum!' to 'Oh, well maybe not so much.' I just figured that in your shoes as 'towny' eventually I passed some kind of test that showed that I really wasn't trying to play some kind of 'too_townie' card. (Scum hunting started winning me over here. After all, why would scum go for someone that would be hard to make a case against, you must be towny trying to confirm me! Damn it.)

Seriously, holy crap though. I thought that I could do a good job at seeing through scum who tried to play the same tricks as you. Switching positions after plays didn't work, lynching people that were scary to you, backing off when you were unsure of what to do, among others. If you truly played all the tricks above that you say you did, then holy crap. That was easily the best scum performance that I have seen yet (in my limited experence lol). *facepalm at myself*

Dang I feel so dumb right now >.< I even had a twinge of self doubt when you asked for my opinion when you had majority on Henrz. 'Why didn't he vote if four of the town told him they would back him up? Hmm... could be that he didn't want to be the first in there, worried about how it would look... a scummy tell. Nah, he probably was just afraid of casting the first stone in general *VOTE*'. DAMN IT lol.

Ok, I feel I need to defend myself a bit, at least to myself. Besides minor tells, that apparently I am quick to explain away to myself, I think that Mitey and Papa never made a logical post that I thought was incorrect, or slightly misguided. I think that this is truly the key to my heart. If you stick to logic, or at least claim too, apparently I am quick to jump to your side of the board and try and reason using your assumptions on the game. Dang. That was really a bunch of words, but really that means, if you can reason with me and put some logic that I can agree with in your posts then I am already a bit on your side (sigh). Both Mitey and Papa did this to me, as I can't remember a single post of there's were I remember myself thinking, 'That makes no sense!'. Sorry town, for being so vocal, and being completely subject to these kinds of players.

Ok post replying time:

I was night-killed for a reason.

Oh come on. You were easilly the most protown at the time. It would only be natural for you to be night-killed. At that point, taking your voice out of the game, it would have been almost impossible to know if that was due to your targets during questioning, or due to your pro-town play.

The lynch of Phil was a HUGE mistake. We should've lynched one of the top suspects. Like Henrz, to avoid today's mislynch.

Both of those are coming from your shoes. In my shoes both those lynches were against the 'top suspects'. I never saw a strong case against Henrz all day long (which I should have trusted my gut on DANG IT!). And I believe as a day one lynch Phil was not a horrible choice. I still stick to the fact that he was mainly focused on amount of content provided instead of what was provided as a good enough target for a day one lynch.

WHY THE HECK DID YOU LYNCH THE SELF-VOTING COP?!? Seriously, I've NEVER seen scum self-vote. I've always seen pro-town players do it.

Self-voting doesn't get me off your case. I am after motives and logic. If I question either of those, and your answer is a self-vote, I would treat it the same as not answering me. Its not a get out of jail free card, its a I don't want to answer card. An 'I don't want to answer' card serves no one, and deserves pressure. Sorry Mastin, can't agree with you here.

Santos's claim and attitude was pro-town [...] I thought Phil was pro-town...

His attitude in day 2 was

hardly

pro-town. As for Phil. I disagree, that was not pro-town at all.

Why I'm night-killed.

Either because you where the most vocal protown, or that you had targetted a scummy. The assumption you kind of have to go with in that situation is that you were just the most protown. Then if that target ends up scummy add the Mastin lynch to that case.

Henrz should've been lynched days earlier

I disagree. Even though I should have listened to myself. I

never

saw a case against Henrz that I thought was pretty sound. It was all just, 'thats a bit strange', and 'well I don't see whats scummy about that right away'.

My read-through of the thread told me that Mastin and Scien were the two most pro-town players in the game, so taking them out first is priority #1.

Sigh. I even thought it was funny that you singled out me, and thought Mastin came out smelling like roses incarnate.

[ I overreach, my case is bad, and I have a hard time defending myself

Eh? I thought you pretty much got off scott free for that. Besides me desperately trying to save myself against one of the most vocial people that I had met up to that point.

Fortunately the town quasi-panics

Ya... I guess... But a non-lynch does not serve the town, and we were very close to deadline due to all the replaces. Silly new noob game deadline rule lol.

Especially since one is the Doc. Poor us.

Damn lucky scum lol.

I have nothing to hide, so of course I'll answer all your questions.

Meh. I hope I can be that cool underfire in the future.

Scien is still the most pro-town player, and I don't want him mucking things up with all his damned insights and scumhunting.

Which apparently both suck hard. I think I would be willing to pin this entire town loss on me... although that would not change how I would have played it.

I rely heavily on the town cred I've earned, especially with Scien.

God damn it.

Fortunately for me, Scien was convinced of my towniness enough that he was willing to shift his view onto Henrz' admittedly weakish case.

God DAMN IT! >.<

They spared Scien to let him and xRECKONERx have their fight. (I think I used this one somewhere)

You did. This was a point where I thought, 'Hmm. I don't really understand this, I pretty much left him alone until today.' I disregarded that so... apparently you had already turned me. Dang it.

[Scien]

Oh and I knew that avatar came from gremlins. I have vague memories of that movies from my younger childhood.

Don't think I have ever seen it though.

[Scien]

Scien, seriously, we have a problem with each other. And you playing mediator almost the entirety of the game made you look scummy in my eyes = appealing to the town's cause while not choosing sides.

Meh, I'll keep that in mind. Just so you know I can mirror your thoughts. You self-voting every time there gets to be a bit of pressure on you, claiming at L-3 in day 1, ignoring questions, having your chief suspicion follow the person who happens to be questioning you the most at the moment, and giving up because you don't want to read anymore makes you look scummy in my eyes. Not a one tactic there would benefit the town in the slightest.

Which is strange. Because when you did ask questions I think a majority of the time they sounded thought out. Also you seemed to keep a pretty level head when defending yourself... well up until self voting or claiming. I mean it, its one of the things I never really understood about your play. You would play fairly well, then BAM get all noobified. Then start playing well. Only to continue the cycle.

I wouldn't say that you epic failed this game, but at any given time you were either doing ok, or getting close to fail. Sorry man.

Sirdanilot, if I had successfully investigated you, I believe things would have been much easier later with you being out of my mind.

Ya. Too bad you pretty much gave up your role with no pressure. Might as well just said in your initial post, 'Uh random vote someone, and I'm the cop.' You do realize that that play was a mistake right?

[Scien]

Scien, seriously, we have a problem with each other. And you playing mediator almost the entirety of the game made you look scummy in my eyes = appealing to the town's cause while not choosing sides.

Meh, I'll keep that in mind. Just so you know I can mirror your thoughts. You self-voting every time there gets to be a bit of pressure on you, claiming at L-3 in day 1, ignoring questions, having your chief suspicion follow the person who happens to be questioning you the most at the moment, and giving up because you don't want to read anymore makes you look scummy in my eyes. Not a one tactic there would benefit the town in the slightest.

Which is strange. Because when you did ask questions I think a majority of the time they sounded thought out. Also you seemed to keep a pretty level head when defending yourself... well up until self voting or claiming. I mean it, its one of the things I never really understood about your play. You would play fairly well, then BAM get all noobified. Then start playing well. Only to continue the cycle.

I wouldn't say that you epic failed this game, but at any given time you were either doing ok, or getting close to fail. Sorry man.

Sirdanilot, if I had successfully investigated you, I believe things would have been much easier later with you being out of my mind.

Ya. Too bad you pretty much gave up your role with no pressure. Might as well just said in your initial post, 'Uh random vote someone, and I'm the cop.' You do realize that that play was a mistake right?