Mini 957 - Everyone's a Hero Mafia - Game Over

[Thor665]

Vote: Snow Bunny

for having underthings tumbling.

But mostly because early bandwagons are a good way out of RVS.

For the Mod

- is there somewhere where the various Deeds and what those actions mean is explained that I have missed, or is that part of the mystery of the setup as well?

[Thor665]

Self-voting is never good play. I am happy with my vote. Now that we're out of the RVS I'd like to see more scum hunting from everyone.

[Thor665]

Hi, McGriddle, I helped lynch you once.

What is your opinion of self voting and why do you not want to support the other bunny wagon?

[Thor665]

Up to and including trying to end RVS this early

I'll contentedly accept your other accusations but find this one quite interesting. Why do you think it's bad to end the RVS quickly? What possible gain for town is there in keeping it going longer?

[Thor665]

@TheButtonmen - agreed, but the only way to force them to act in a way that can later prove to be scummy is to take them out of the "security" that is the ability to say 'c'mon, it was just the RVS, nothing's serious.' Therefore I take everything serious right off the bat and try to move us into regular thought quickly because I think scum are not yet ready for that.

@McGriddle - why is the wagon bad simply because it's RVS? All RVS means is that we have a limited amount of knowledge to work from. You have already stated that you don't think self-voting is useful unless you are scum - therefore either Snow_Bunny is scum or is playing terribly as town and deserves some votes.

Why do you think it is better to vote Doombunny9 at this point?

[Thor665]

Pfft, you take things too seriously in the rvs.

In my opinion, trying to end quickly the rvs when nothing good has still come out is scummy.

I take things too seriously in the RVS? To my mind that suggests that you feel things shouldn't be taken seriously in the RVS.

...then you say that I'm trying to end it before something 'good' comes out of it (also, the only 'good' that comes out of RVS in my opinion is that eventually someone takes something seriously and you can start having real discussion)? How can anything 'good' come out of it if we aren't taking it seriously? At what point are we allowed to look for 'good' stuff and at what point is it then acceptable to take things seriously? If you can't answer this, why is it unreasonable to start taking things seriously at any time you feel like?

Should I take your vote for me seriously? Or is it RVS and shouldn't be taken seriously? (<--serious question)

Getting a town read from both Thor and Button. It seems as if scum would not want to argue, but try to stay under the radar without lurking. Yay for quick end to RVS. Carry on.

If you feel the RVS is over and already have two town reads why wouldn't you vote for someone at this juncture? Also, how valid do you actually believe being active is as a town tell? I've seen very active scum in multiple games, it doesn't seem like a worthwhile tell.

[Thor665]

Why try to bury the others? Why only respond to what you consider the weakest one?

I'm not sure I feel I responded to the weakest one, but fair enough;

Well then; Vote: Thor for a veritable cornucopia of reasons. Up to and including [1]trying to end RVS this early, [2]his comment about how he wants good scumhunting from every one sets up bullSmurf excuse to wagon, [3]his confirm vote for no reason; [4]if it's always bad play it's not a scum tell, why does it confirm your vote? [5]Also Thor is obvhero, just look at the name!

1. I still don't see trying to end the RVS as scummy - are you actually claiming this as a scumtell?

2. My comment about wanting good scumhunting sets up my wagon of Snow_Bunny? How does it do this? Wouldn't an overall request for more scumhunting simply be a request for...well, scumhunting?

3. I specifically gave a reason for my vote in my very first post. Why are you ignoring that reason?

4. Something that is always bad play could still be a scumtell I suppose, but I'll accept this thought. At the very least I consider self-voting to be bad play unless you are scum and thus my idea holds for what I was advancing. I consider this to have been either bad play or an attempt to dismiss my vote by trying to be funny. I consider the former scummy and the latter at least not a good reason to remove my vote. Thus, I am happy with where my vote is because Snow_Bunny is the scummiest player I've seen.

5. I think this is probably your weakest point, do you seriously consider this a reasonable point?

Getting a town read from both Thor and Button....[snip]...Being active is not a town tell

Why do you have a town read on me and Button again?

[Thor665]

because of the way you are arguing back and forth. To restate my opinion, activity is not a town tell, non-activity is not a scum tell, but trying to avoid the spotlight is a scum tell.

Is trying to not avoid the spotlight a town tell though?

I don't think self voting is scummy but trying to act like it is is scummy.

I also cited the self-vote as a reason to solidify my vote - what is it about the way Doombunny did it that makes you vote him, and what is it about the way I did it that doesn't even deserve mention?

[Thor665]

TL:DR

First I assault Snow_Bunny to answer her question and point out how she didn't answer mine. I believe weak cases are normal and needed in RVS due to lack of current information and that she is still the scummiest player here.
Second, I ask MonkeyMan to explain the abrasiveness and why it was scummy.
Third I nerd out with esuriospiritus, request that a scumtell is actually said out loud, and discuss the game mechanics a bit

===============================================

@Thor: Why do you find selfvoting, specially as a rv, scummy?

During the RVS stage the level of what I consider a scumtell is shifted. Basically - because there is so little information to go on even a minor scumtell becomes worthy of being a full borne case. Therefore, even a minor scummy thing becomes the qualifier for the whole case, and indeed, it is obligated to be so because it's impossible to build a longer case.

As to specifically why I'm voting you for this, please consider this question; What is the pro town advantage of self-voting? If you cannot answer that question then there is no reason for town to self vote ergo you are not town (because all town automatically play a perfect game, naturally).

You also dodged/missed all my questions to you from page 1, I'll restate the single question that all of the little questions I asked really are probing at; please explain to me why it is scummy to try to end the RVS quickly.

If you cannot do this then that also shows that your follow up vote on me is more akin to OMGUS then it is to actually scumhunting and it also shows that my vote on you is even more justified.

You had a more lengthy reasoning for your stance. The player I voted on seemed more abrasive.

Fair enough. Why do you think his abrasiveness was scummy?

Hmm. I don't know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.

I don't get the Stargate reference but I have you here, if it makes you feel better.

Also, thank you for having read that article. This is now my second game (both ongoing) where I've been using some of this mindset and I find it ends the RVS very quickly. I'm not sure if it's helping me catch scum yet, but I suppose that will take longer to assess.

However, post 17 is way scummier than her self-vote imo, so she gets a vote from me anyway.

Would you like to say why you find it scummy? It cannot just be her anti-ending the RVS stance since multiple posters have taken that thus far, so something else is bugging you here, what is it?

Based on this I am guessing there is going to be a lot less bussing than usual.

Except, of course, there are the Public Deeds which allow both Heroes and Villains to gain Hero and Villain points each night. I'm not saying you're wrong about the bussing thought, but this is certainly a modifier to that belief.

[Thor665]

Basically nothing is a town-tell...Scum are trying to act like town, making most "town-tells" useless.

Getting a town read from both Thor and Button.

Obvious contradiction is obvious.

[Thor665]

Greetings an salutations, friends.++!!

Me com from time itself.

I examined this post...twice (I even wore glasses, which makes me smarter when reading) there was no scumhunting within this post. Please try again.

We have almost two pages now and they are not fluff pages, they are viable pages with real opinions being bandied about and there is no reason you could not have made a contribution in your first post.

@McGriddle - what is your read on the obvious active lurking of Timeater, why do you think he's avoiding adding to the conversation?

[Thor665]

TL:DR - I find it interesting that Buttonmen thinks that if RVS can logically contain silly votes why he feels my serious votes are scummy. If a silly vote (name as scumtell) isn't scummy then why is any action scummy (including the "harsh" crime of taking things seriously)?

============================================

What Thor did was both unhelpful to town and also mildly scummy as it put him in the potion to judge what’s townish and what’s not

Every single player in this game has that ability - that's why we have votes and explain our reads on tells. How did I establish myself as the only person capable of knowing scumtell from towntell?

this is compounded by the fact that Thor continues to try to lead town and establish what’s good play and what isn’t.

I will note this is coming from someone who is voting me because I tried to end RVS too quickly. Could you clarify the differences?

Also, I responded to all your accusations point by point on the bottom of page one - why no commentary on that?

@The Article:

I like Glorks take on it; Vi also makes some good points.

So you dislike my take on it because... Here's a goal, how about you quote to me what Glork said that shows him disagreeing with what I have done. Clearly one of us is misunderstanding his standpoint. Here's one from me;

Shea hit the nail squarely on the head when he said "make everyone accountable" and "ask questions." Suppose I bandwagon a player. Ask me why I did so, and ask two or three other people what they think about my vote, and about the person I bandwagoned. This is the type of behavior which not only makes the RVS useful to the town, but also leads us out of it in a natural and productive way.

@Timeater:

You don’t like my vote because I’m voting him for his name lulwhut?

Why do you feel my name is a functional scumtell that should be taken seriously? Also, any answer you have to this, why does it not then apply to Timeater finding your vote scummy? If you find a name scummy clearly he can find you voting for a name scummy - yes?

@SemioldGuy:

Bunny didn’t tell town how to react to her self vote; she perpetuated a part of the game I find useful; she kept RVS going in a manner that got reactions from everyone thus making people start talking while not outlining how they should be talking.

And now you have Semioldguy's reaction to the RVS stage action of Bunny. Shouldn't this make you happy?

Would you be happier with my actions if I suddenly said "LOL I've just been kidding, hah, we're still in RVS!1!"

Would this then make my actions more or less worthy land why is this?

[Thor665]

RVS is like the source for N0 info for town. If you end it really quickly, you'll have, in all chances, nothing more than useless pieces of info to start with.

This is the closest thing I see to logic in your rebuttal, and yet I don't see why it applies. If the only purpose of RVS is to get to know people through their reactions to silly points the only way you can claim it's bad I ended it is by pointing out how it's now impossible for us to learn about players through their reactions to serious points. What's the difference? Is it just that scum will allow themselves to be caught if they're saying silly things? Do you manage all your best scumhunting through the RVS?

You've also made it clear you're voting me because you think I'm scum - isn't this a serious vote and the ending of the RVS for you? Why does your serious vote not make you scummy and why does my serious vote make me scummy?

Also, you have pointed out how my plan is obviously scummy for stopping RVS and trying to bandwagon you early. Five players are voting for you - do you think we are all obv. scum, or do you think there are some confused townies on this bandwagon?

Finally - what are your reads on the other bunny wagon, Doombunny? Is this also a scummy attempt to end RVS, or are these reasonable points to vote for?

[Thor665]

Vote: TheButtonmen

Prior to this vote you were discussing RVS with Buttonmen, he has yet to respond and now you are voting him. What happened between now and the last time you responded to Buttonmen to now make it worthwhile to vote him?

[Thor665]

A)Thor continues to only ask empty questions; Asking people why they are voting and/or what they think. He is doing his best to lead town while providing little to no content.

You do not think it is useful asking people why they are voting and what they think? It will be interesting to see how you scumhunt since it's dramatically different from my methods.

Also, I'll note for a second time that I have addressed your 'case' on me at the bottom of Page 1 as you requested and you still haven't responded to that - why'd you ask me to do it?

If you think I need to add content shouldn't you...I dunno, do something about that? Maybe by asking me a question that will obligate me to provide content? Also, how am I setting myself up as a leader? If you don't like it why don't you just take some leadership actions in another direction then the one I'm going in? Or is it you think any and all leadership qualities are, by definition, scummy?

@Timeater - why do you call Buttonmen's comments "preachy?" This is attacking the man more then the message and is not really a valid point against him. Whether or not you think he's full of himself will not help us identify him being town/scum and it ends up looking like a snipe of your own on him after you had just jabbed at him for doing the same to me.

[Thor665]

Thor's overdefensiveness over a single vote, and a rv, says a lot.

What does it say? Do you feel this is a scum tell on me or a null or town tell?

Also, why would you consider self-votes town tells?

[Thor665]

Okay, why would you consider self-votes *in the RVS* town tells?

You also said my overdefensivness 'said a lot' and now it is apparently not a strong scum tell. This seems a little contradictory to me since if something says a lot it seems like it should be more then simply a non-strong scum tell that's worth noting.

Also, how do you classify the difference in my 'over defensiveness' towards being voted because of my name and being anti-RVS (and being the leader of the town) as compared to your defensiveness as regards whether or not self-votes in the RVS are or are not scum tells? What about my defensiveness is more strident/worrisome then yours?

[Thor665]

3) You're being over defensive to an attack. I'm being defensive of my point of view on what should be scumtell and what not. I think there may be a difference, but you know, that's me. ¬_¬

So in your opinion none of the case on me could be a debate about what qualifies as a scumtell and none of your defense is aimed at attacks on you? Eh, I disagree. ...that reminds me;

How do you define my actions as 'over'defensive and what is my 'normal' level of defensiveness?

[Thor665]

I'll agree with Zhero on the spotlight thing. As I believe I've already said, I've seen quiet lurking scum, and I've seen bombastic howling scum - and generally they appear to play their town roles in similar ways.

@Zhero - seeing as how you're on the 'other' bunny wagon could you explain why you do not like the Snow_Bunny wagon and why you think Doombunny is the better scum suspect?

@riceballtail - do you have any links showing successful use of your modfishing scumtell?

[Thor665]

@MonkeyMan - you cite your current vote on Riceballtail as her having a poor reason to vote someone (modfishing)

Your previous vote was on Doombunny for pretty much the same thing (claiming self vote = scummy) Yet currently Doombunny is also voting for Riceballtail for the exact same reason.

1. What makes this particular bad reason to vote scummier then Doombunny's bad reason to vote?

2. How do you feel about voting the same way as Doombunny considering your earlier reason to vote for him?

[Thor665]

1. The Doombunny wagon was pretty much a difference of theory opinion. There's arguments on both sides. I think Riceballtail's vote is worse.

Yet you are voting Riceballtail for voting on a scumtell that you disagree with.
You voted Doombunny for voting on a scumtell you disagree with.

It seems odd to claim there are two sides to Doombunny's scumtell but that Riceballtail's scumtell is not a difference in theory. What am I missing here?

[Thor665]

Greetings men of the buttons.

As much as I type stuff just to prove to myself how wonderful I am, I do like to be responded to. Specifically my questions as posed here

I also want to hear your take on esuriospiritus' meta call on you made here

Seeing as how you dinged me earlier for not addressing all of the points in your case I find it contradictory that you then do not respond to questions and accusations made at you - what's the difference?

[Thor665]

@TheMeta:

Have you read any of my scum games?

What does it matter whether or not I have read any of your scum games? (no, I haven't - I've never read any game with you in it - well, barring this one to be exacting)

@Your "Questions":

They are flaming piles o' Smurf; In the specific the one you reference you again focus on one sentence rather then the post as a whole and then ask piles of meaningless questions. In the general you spend 80% of the time asking people empty questions about their votes. So basically, No.

I totally disagree with you on your claim that I have not addressed the post as a whole (presuming you're talking about your 'case' post which I took point by point here and you never responded to. If it's a different post I'm not addressing feel free to ask me to.

I personally think you're still sticking to the initial accusation you made back on Page 1 and either missed my response and multiple mentions of it or...I dunno, are choosing to ignore it while still claiming I haven't addressed those points. I'm actually just getting a reading comprehension problem vibe here, so no real worries, but please address what points of yours you still feel I've avoided.

If you still feel I'm not producing content and am offering up only empty commentary then why are you not pressuring me to provide this content? In other words - you have claimed I am not scumhunting, yet you are not scum hunting me either and I am having to drag responses out of you - this seems very much a reversal of what should be if you suspect me of not offering opinions.

[Thor665]

Also minor posting point, if your going to delete sections of a quote leave some kind of indication you did.

I replace all curse words with 'Smurf' I do not think this is hard to notice or to understand what has changed in the post, and it certainly doesn't effect the validity of anything said therein. I'll not be likely to note this when I do it in the future.

I disagree with your take on what qualifies as scumhunting.

[Thor665]

I disagree with your take on what qualifies as scumhunting.

Are you sure about this? He had a few valid points in his definition (I don't see why you would defend the people you think are scummy for example) Are you sure you disagree with this?

I am sure about this, that is why I said it. He opens his statement with saying that pressuring people and getting opinions on them is scumhunting. He then says that if you do it too much (to too many players at once), it becomes not scumhunting, which is what he believes I am doing.

I personally do not believe that by scumhunting multiple players that it somehow dulls my scumhunt, and in fact consider it important to get reads on as many players as I can. I suppose he can argue that scumhunting is an ad sum game, but I disagree with that.

I also do not believe I am simultaneously attacking and defending people (his claim about me). I rather think I'm attacking everyone. The thing is sometimes when you attack someone it is over what they are attacking someone else on. You can call this defense if you like, but I prefer to think of it as an attack on bad logic being used in an attack and is thus well worth attacking.

[Thor665]

I'll back that wagon.

Unvote: Snow_Bunny
Vote: TheButtonmen

He still hasn't explained his case on me (which still means he's apparently voting me for ending the RVS and having a hero username). He tends to deflect my questions with questions and then doesn't seem to care about the answers (demanding I respond to his whole case, asking if I've read any of his scum games - none of my responses are followed up on).

I'm not sure if I buy into the 'judging' aspect as presented by Timeater - at the very least this might make potential sense considering Buttonmen's issue with asking questions as a scumhunting tactic (though he's re-parsed this to 'asking *too many* questions' when pressured, which is a shift that I consider deflecting again).

I'm not sure where I am on the Riceballtail wagon. Her logic seems really weak, but I'm surprised everyone else is so convinced it's bad scum logic as opposed to bad newbie logic. Do those voting for her have familiarity with her play, is she really newbish or not? I think the vote is newbie and is getting a lot of heat for that and people are projecting scum energy onto it.

@iLord: Prod Request on McGriddle

I want to hear more from him and pman.

[Thor665]

Righto. Well, it seems the Buttonmen has returned, and is as scummy as ever, and meanwhile RBT has gone back to lurker mode. I don't buy at all Button's claim that his meta has changed; it's such a significant change in demeanour and the game in question ended fairly recently.

Do you have any clarification as to why Buttonmen is 'as scummy as ever'? I think other then the meta claim you haven't clarified this thought.

[Thor665]

It's not about letting her off, it's about assessing the actual scumminess of her actions. Why do you see her vote as more of a scumtell then a newbtell?

[Thor665]

However, could you please answer how my answer to this will help you?

I have said that my read of her is more newb then scum. If you could explain why it's a clear scumtell it would help me understand where you're coming from and maybe clue me into a scum. If you cannot answer this question I am taught a bit more about how you choose to read scum/newbtells. Here's a quick breakdown of my read for the modfishing scumtell as presented by RBT;

If she's town

then she must genuinely believe this is actually a justified scumtell (it might not be (I certainly don't think so), but she must believe it is or she is a terrible player)

If she's scum

she's not likely to do something she sees as overtly scummy, and consequently she doesn't see claiming modfishing as inherently scummy. So her goal is scummy, but again, she wouldn't use a scumtell she thought was scummy to present her case with.

Therefore, if you can't show why her goal is scummy then simply saying that the vote is scummy doesn't actually show why RBT is scum. Do you think she expected to get a fast wagon rolling with this vote? Okay, that could be scummy. Do you think she was trying to avoid giving reasons for a vote, okay that could be scummy. Use of the scumtell itself is not inherently scummy, however, and that's all you seem to be going on.

[Thor665]

@semioldguy - if you think it's a decent wagon why aren't you voting for it?

[Thor665]

My bad, I'd thought you were on the Buttonmen wagon.

[Thor665]

I do not like his brush off of the RBT wagon, and his chainsaw defense.

His chainsaw defense? Where do you see that and how do you justify your current vote with that belief?

[Thor665]

I'm not trying to remain unnoticed.

Do you deny the active lurking charge, though? You have been prodded now and you have admitted you've been here but had nothing to comment on at all. Do you seriously think that you should lurk and only respond when addressed, how do you believe that helps town?

[Thor665]

@McGriddle - nothing to say about *anything* else that has happened? I know you said you had some RL issues, but if you're going to post why not comment on Riceballtail or Pman? Why not comment on any of the other wagons? Why not, at the very least, call us all flaming idiots for not supporting your Doombunny vote since you're the only one on that wagon?

@pman - you still haven't clarified Buttonmen's chainsaw defense. As far as I can tell the only thing he's done you could call chainsaw is when he attacked the general concept of the RBT wagon (he had just got done attacking RBT's scumtell as well). But the only evidence I see of chainsaw there is that you think RBT is scum, and it's not like Buttonmen was alone in attacking the RBT wagon - so why single him out for that one?

[Thor665]

Thor665 (3): TheButtonmen

Either a typo or obvious triple voter is obvious.

TheButtonman chainsaw defended RBT by attacking the wagon. His defense of RBT also sounds more like he is defending timeater. Which to me shows that he isn't paying attention to what he is talking about.

Sorry. I meant to say (and thought I said) that you put suspicions on me but since I was talking about votes in general right before that it must have just come out. That oftentimes happens, where my fingers type something slightly different than what my brain was thinking.

So people not paying attention to what they're saying is a scumtell? This is also the player who earlier you said you had a town read on and now you're going with chainsaw defense of RBT and also defense of Timeater?

I'm happy with either a Buttonmen or pman lynch at this point, and since Buttonmen doesn't appear to be as much of an attractive wagon as I feel he should;

Unvote: TheButtonmen
Vote: pman5595

This is L-2, as a head's up.

[Thor665]

I don't much like Buttonmen's logic that hammer vote=obv scum bus, though at the same time I find it incredibly weak that MonkeyMan's immediate defense is 'hey, I hammered scum' which is equally poor logic.

@MonkeyMan - you say you lynched pman when you did because 'making sure you weren't the Day 1 lynch was beneficial to your role' (not that there are many roles this isn't beneficial to)

In any case, you had previously declared quick lynches scummy. Since you were clearly not in any danger of being lynched anytime soon why the sudden hammer?

[Thor665]

anyone have an analysis on why Zhero and D-Bunny were hit last night? I find those people strange candidates for some reason. Zhero hardly contributed.

Zhero could have been NKed because he was onto Monkey, of course he could have been NKed to make us think he was onto Monkey - yadda, yadda. Doom...I dunno, he was pretty aggressive on the lurkers which is at least useful to the town in a general sense. Both were also early and aggressive on the Pman wagon (Doom more so) so it could just be simply the scum zapping people who they saw as more effective at rooting out their scumbuddy and/or gaining more town cred for it.

With those two as the kills I don't think we're looking at a Vig role, so either scum have double kill power or there's an SK (or maybe that Kill Someone public deed is more insidious then we know).

@TheButtonmen - I do agree that Monkey's chosen defense to the accusation is terribad (in fact, I do agree that the vote itself is scummy), I just find your accusation not much better as I don't find it scummy for obv. bussing but rather for his odd way of justifying the vote and the earlier discordant concept of the quicklynch comment in juxtaposition.

[Thor665]

I'm not sure what you want me to say. I misread my role pm. It turned out for the best though.

...so by this are you now saying that your given reason (helpful to your role) isn't even applicable for your reasons for hammering anymore because you misread your role PM?

Could you kindly address how, while you thought it was helpful to your role, it seemed like the best idea to hammer him like you did when you had previously said that quick lynches were scummy?

[Thor665]

I would like to note that Monkey Man is at L-1.

I'd certainly like to hear his answer to my question before a hammer, and I don't want anyone 'accidentally' hammering him.

[Thor665]

Yeah, I'm gonna be quite content with a Monkey lynch. Especially if he doesn't claim in his next post.

@Esurio: Claim please. You have until the day ends, regardless of your actual choice.

Contentedly pushing on Monkey while voting McGriddle and claiming some sort of investigation on Esurio (who is voting Monkey)?

Something here does not add up, what am I missing?

Vote: Riceballtail

[Thor665]

@Monkey - out of curiosity, you're at L-1 and have already claimed that you targeted one of the NKs of the Night Phase and that your previously stated reason for a hammer vote was incorrect because you misread your role PM. Is there a pro-town reason that you're avoiding calls for a fullclaim or name claim at this particular juncture?

Also, you still haven't addressed my question of why you dropped the hammer like you did when you had previously discussed quicklynching as scummy.

[Thor665]

Your ability will make it so that Esurio will only be able to post votes and unvotes?

...so you have an ability that removes the ability of other players to voice their opinions and you decided to use it and demand a roleclaim because of it? How do you see this as a pro town series of actions exactly?

[Thor665]

Considering certain aspects of my role PM, I'm not sure I'd rule out a bit of questionable parentage in the modding. At the very least the mod seems content to have us dealing with a lot of new mechanics in a low information way.

Monkey's name claim and discussion of his role that he has done tends to suggest that he's looking for someone with the role of Ira G-whatever (the dude who abandoned Fury Leika at the altar). I'm personally doubtful such a role is even out there, and this tends to expand on the possibility of the setup being a bit bastard-y.

I'm of the belief either Monkey is either a poorly played SK, or that we're in a bit of a bastard setup and he doesn't realize he's a SK. The fluff of the character, Monkey's night target, and Doombunny's death seems too much evidence to simply be a coincidence.

Frankly, short of someone role claiming Ira he seems a solid lynch.

[Thor665]

Thor seems to be trying a bit to hard to be everyone's friend and is asking "soft" questions.

I will note that I do not believe being polite and considering the purpose of the game to be fun equates to being scum...though this might explain a lot of the other play styles I see.

So here's the deal; I'm Dr.Horrible and I win if Penny confesses her love to me; based on what Monkey has claimed I'm assuming he is A) Penny and B) a Hero. Here's what I suggest, I have a kill ability however it apprently isn't 100% under my control as I targeted Timeater last night but killed Doombunny, Monkeys claim makes me think that if I use my death ray I kill whoever she confesses her love to.

You do realize that Monkey claimed as Fury Leika - I'm guessing your presumption is a bit of bastardy name assignment where Penny isn't called Penny?

Presuming we don't get a Penny claim I'm favorably inclined towards the general plan as we'd have plenty of time to tag you guys if you're the actual scum (and I can't conceive of this as a scum gambit unless the setup is bad enough where two mislynches equates to a town loss).

Could you expand a bit on your NK ability? Did your PM tell you it wasn't accurate or not?

[Thor665]

@RBT - how exactly do we know Esurio is scum now? I actually agree with her desire not to roleclaim to your demand and also agree that your ability seems more likely to hurt town then to help. Why do you disagree? (especially considering your [justified] issues with the way McGriddle is posting, you do know you're basically obligating other players into this effect - that's not helpful)

@Timeater - maybe I'm just dense (I'm certainly accused of this on a regular basis) but why is it so vital to stop Button and Monkey from achieving their own win condition? The removal of two players whom I consider high on my suspect list seems beneficial to the purpose of winnowing down the scum amongst us. I really don't see this as a likely scum gambit so unless you believe their win condition somehow skunks the villain win condition I don't get the problem.

@McGriddle - there's a reason it's funny that RBT is having to clarify that she didn't use her abilities on you yet. Please comment on the ongoing discussions. Monkey, Button, RBT, et al.

[Thor665]

...um....well, I'll accept that as at least admission that you read my question to you, though the comprehension might be low. Let's try again.

@McGriddle;

1. Why the vote for RBT?

2. Why didn't you explain the RBT vote when you made it?

3. What are your thoughts on Buttonmen's claim and how it affects Monkey?

[Thor665]

So your basic logic is that Doc/Girlfriend win equates to - endgame and only they win and everyone else loses? Okay, I wasn't working with an ad sum game concept to the win, but that makes sense for where you're coming from.

[Thor665]

I am surprised how accepting others are being of just letting them go off and win. If they say they win with the town, they can prove it by finding scum with us and winning with the town.

I'm pretty sure I'm actually the only player who came out and voiced support for the plan other then Button and Monkey themselves. So the town in general is hardly hoodwinked unless you think I speak for all of them.

I'm actually turning against that support but mostly just for Buttonmen's last few posts which are leaving me feeling more confused then I wish.

As for Monkey his claim of winning with town I'm quite sure is a lie, as was his name claim.

What exactly do you mean here? Aren't you claiming Monkey=Penny and is the key to your win? Why do you think he's lying so much? If you think he is lying, why do you still think he's the key for your win condition?

So, can i bring teh hammerz?

I dunno - do you think all useful conversation has ended and the day should conclude with a lynch you feel confident in? How many people (and who) need to say 'yes' to this question for you to perform the hammer?

[Thor665]

If you want us to win with the town, why are you proposing lynching us, you don't make sense. I think it's a scum ploy.

His stated belief is that your win condition ends the game - therefore he would want to lynch one of you to prevent the win condition. That does make sense presuming he otherwise accepts that you are town.

What are your thoughts about Button saying he believes you are lying about your win condition and your name claim?

[Thor665]

SOG and thor agree with my logic so far about stemming a possible 3rd party win condition. Are they wrong too?

Just to clarify, I understand your logic but am not endorsing it as of yet. I consider myself currently in a neutral position towards the question.

What really got me off supporting Monkey and Buttonmen was Buttonmen's really odd post where he declared that the person he says is part of his win condition is lying about both his win condition and name claim. That just doesn't make sense. If Button thinks Monkey is lying about all of that then why does he want to trust him (and via his own claim, attempt to clear him)? It really seemed like a pre set-up to condemn Monkey on Day 3 when the effect doesn't work.

[Thor665]

Consolidating the game this way only helps town.

I'm not sure if it's helpful for that - since in effect it will be like a lynch and a Nightkill without the attendant day of discussion or the ability to perform actions at night. How do you disagree with this and paint the result as more pro town?

The only real advantage I see is that I am suspicious of both you and Button and the thought of both of you being 'cleared' via win and removal from the game is tempting.

[Thor665]

That's an interesting thought, esurio, I hadn't considered the possibility of a scum/town alternate win, I'd been presuming they were both town or both scum only. It could also make a lot of sense for Penny to be classified as a 'hero' from a fluff standpoint. That actually increases the relative value of letting them get their win condition because it will snake us our second scum. I'm back to supporting allowing the alternate win and am still for lynching RBT.

@McGriddle - I'd still like to hear...well, anything from you (specifically on the Button/Monkey question)

@Snow_Bunny - if your clone can't vote (as you claim), what is its purpose? As proved by SOG we can indeed lynch the clone, I'd actually appreciate it if you could at least have the clone drop a vote on a player so we could ascertain its ability, or lack thereof, to vote for ourselves via the vote count.

Also, what is your call on the Button/Monkey question, I don't think you've weighed in yet.

[Thor665]

@thor - Can toss aside your socratic-method style of playing for a moment and tell us all what

you think

is the proper course of action given all known variables at this point?

What do you think should happen?

From my previous post;

I'm back to supporting allowing the alternate win and am still for lynching RBT.

Does it need to be more clear then what I've already said? I think I'm being as clear in my beliefs at any moment as anyone else, and moreso then most.

The only thing I haven't weighed in on yet is maybe the 'Death Ray Question' but I'm still waiting for Button to actually return and answer some questions outstanding about it. I'll have a better feeling for who I'd want to target with a death ray if McGriddle would reappear, SOG would say more, and Snow_Bunny would expound on the voting capability of her clone deal. I'd probably want to shoot one of them, but am unsure as to my preference at this point.

[Thor665]

@Thor:

In regards to your question about Death Ray accuracy; yes the PM told me there could be accuracy issues.

Okay, but you're going on a presumption that your death ray effect zapped Doombunny because Monkey targeted Doombunny. This then seems like if we let Monkey target you that we do not get a Vig effect out of you unless for some reason you self-vig, yes?

Also, Monkey was asked for his top suspects, but no one asked you. Since I hate the thought of you being left out, could you please clarify your top 2-3 suspects at the moment?

@Monkey - it has been argued that you are scum (Hero) and that you have lied about your role claim and win condition. Is this true? If so, can you tell us any remaining partner's name(s)?

[Thor665]

Lurking seems to be fairly heavy in a couple of my current games. I suspect to some degree the approaching of the end of the school year is eating up a lot of time for those still in high school/university.

Also, the only one in particular arrears for responding is Snow_Bunny. Everyone else has posted at least within the last four days or so.

[Thor665]

Button just dodged his claimed pro town Vig kill by not actually asking others to voice their opinions on it. I'll admit with the way that lynch just went down I feel I was wrong quite a bit today.

[Thor665]

Well, it looks like RBT's ability either doesn't expire with death or esurio is opting to play it up because she's scum. In either case I am highly unhappy with RBT's play as it did not help.

@esurio - 3 questions, feel free to revote McGriddle once you're done;

1. Is your current vote on McGriddle based on his vote yesterday? (if so, please do a vote for Snow_Bunny_Is_Awesome)

2. are you allowed to quote (either quote me or don't)

3. Do you think Button/Monkey contains scum still? (vote: Thor if yes vote: iLord if no)


As far as the roleblock, that was me.

Claim: Mass Roleblock

I used it last night because the actions of Monkey and Button at the end of the day were not pro town, they were trying to rush things to get their win condition - that makes me suspect Timeater and SOG were correct in suspecting them.

Also, I was dwelling on this thought over the Night Phase. Nine players were alive - if two had been removed and we hadn't caught scum Day 1 that would have put us at a scum win (presuming three scum) at the start of Day 3 which is really only a mislynch potential of 2 mislynches (plus allowing the independent win).

So either we have only two scum in the game (only one left) or Button or Monkey have to be scum partnered with someone else (or the game is horribly unbalanced) In any case I felt obligated to use my power to sort of pause the game so we could maybe be a bit smarter today.

I no longer want Button or Monkey to have their win condition.

The quickhammer and the quick commentary at the start of the day about how Monkey is the scum paired with the commentary yesterday about how he thought Monkey was lying makes me suspect Button a lot.

@Button - why did you hammer before town had decided how to use your Vig kill?

Vote: Buttonmen

[Thor665]

I thought you said your win condition included winning with the town in addition to the alternate win condition?

[Thor665]

EBWOP

the above is;

@Buttonmen

[Thor665]

Honestly, I would rather lynch Monkey over Button at the moment. If even being partially truthful, Button as the potential to be of use to the town. No one has counter-claimed to be Doc Horrible. Also, thor, you forgetting about pman? Thats one scum down.

I accounted for that when discussing the scum team - my prediction was for a two man (one already gone) or a three man that if we hadn't nailed one day one would have potentially just won at the start of Day 3, which seems all sorts of gakked up.

I'll concede Button's theoretical vig is useful, but firstly it seems tied into Monkey somehow so I'm not sure we can use it unless they're both kept alive (which means we can't use it) and secondly his actions thus far seem pretty clear to me that he has zero interest in aiding town (which means we can't use it).

[Thor665]

If one of the two of them is town it would more than likely be TheButtonmen (even with the hammer, since if he perceived the opportunity to win he would take it; I would)...[snip]...I don't think TheButtonmen could be scum with Monkeyman576 being town, since I really doubt that TheButtonmen as scum would have claimed as he did, essentially saving MonkeyMan576 if he were town.

That doesn't make sense to me - if he's town he'd drop a hammer on someone to lynch them just to go for his alternate win condition because, hey, who wouldn't?

But if he's scum there's no way he'd be willing to rescue town in order to achieve his alternate win condition?

Why would he be willing to wuss slap his town win if town but not his scum win if scum? He's either willing to screw over his teammates or he's not.

[Thor665]

I would really appreciate it if some of the people now piling onto MonkeyMan could explain why he's more scummy then Button. As I recall the big Monkey-as-scum point was his quicklynch back on Day 1...it's not exactly like he's alone on that particular crime at this point, now is it? Therefore you theoretically have a reason to vote for him above and beyond that - so what is it?

@McGriddle - you were not targeted with RBT's powers - stop it.

[Thor665]

That does make sense, Timeater - to be frank my posting was more targeted at McGriddle and Snow_Bunny as you had already outlined reasons above and beyond the info from yesterday.

I'm not sure lack of a counter claim of Doc Horrible equates to much info other then that it's probably likely Button has a lot of abilities. I think it is a legitimate question fluff-wise whether we think he's actually likely to be allied with the villain/hero/independent loyalty axis. Considering his actions I'm currently leaning hero/indy though clearly I'm in a minority on that one.

Also, the sudden ferocity and quickness of the Monkey wagon is making me wonder if he's just easy lynch bait. He doesn't look that much more obviously scum to my eyes then Button so I am wondering why so many votes so quickly (and so few explained). The wagon is leaving me untrustworthy of it.

[Thor665]

@McGriddle - um, thanks for the role claim and target claim I guess. I take it you're also claiming your 'soaked' power has an effect unknown to you?

@Everyone else - If there was a 3 scum team we now sit at Mylo (and we would have lost already except for the Night 1 lynch) This is making me suspicious that we're looking at only a two scum game but I suppose it's smart to stick to the mylo concept.

With that in mind I think it's worthwhile for us to discuss the possibility of either a 'no lynch' (too risky I think considering the plethora of powers out there) Or an information claim - since I think if people have some info that might help us narrow our choices now would be a good time to discuss it. If others are in favor of this we could do a popcorn style info reveal.

[Thor665]

Well, I didn't really claim a role, I just claimed an action. And what I am saying is TheButtonMen is either a PR or scum.

<---I'm hoping this conveys my emotional state accurately at the moment.

You are aware that pretty much everyone in this game has powers of some sort or other and thus are PRs of some sort of other, yes?

You are aware that Buttonmen specifically claimed certain powers he had, yes?

Finally, you are aware that Button is now dead and flipped town, yes???

I have no idea what point you're attempting to make, please clarify it for great justice.

[Thor665]

Thor can you mass roleblock again?

Not without a sudden infusion of points.

[Thor665]

[1]QUESTION: I know what lylo means (lynch or lose) what is mylo, e.g mislynch and lose? (means basically the same thing).

[2]QUESTION: Define "popcorn style" reveal?

[3]QUESTION: Do you think Button killed Esurio?

POINT: I am not in favor of a no-lynch at the moment. However I am in favor of hearing claims, especially from Griddle and Bunny

first

.

1. MYLO is, as you guessed, mislynch and lose. Basically what it means is town cannot afford to lynch incorrectly but yet we can afford to no lynch - thus making it different from LYLO where a no lynch is not an option because it's lynch (correctly) OR lose.

2. Popcorn means that generally the agreed upon scummiest person starts the claim (whatever the claim process is) with their claim they nominate the next person in line who they want to claim.

So, for instance, if we all agree McGriddle is the scummiest player he would claim and then he would decide who claims next (let's say me) I would then claim and decide who claims after me, and so on till we're done. The general concept is you manage to get the scummiest players to claim first and can also read other players based on the order they're requesting.

Currently I'd want to start with McGriddle in any case since he's both scummy and has already functionally half claimed.

3. That is what I believe.

I will note that I think you're misinterpreting McGriddle's soak claim - that power is an obvious nameclaim for anyone who knows the source material and I don't think qualifies as a claim of killing Button since McGriddle acted confused about Button even being alive or dead shortly thereafter. That said I do find it suspicious that he went out of his way to nameclaim like he did with no prompting and included his night target while not clarifying what it was he's actually claiming to have done.

I'm still in favor of everyone at least claiming what information they have. I'm also in favor of a fuller claim. McGriddle has practically already started us on that path and if we are in Mylo more info for town is probably better then not. Basically I'm down for a mass claim, and whichever one we can get consensus on sounds like a win to me.

[Thor665]

@McGriddle - I can understand annoyance at Timeater's commentary, but your vote is detrimental to town if the only reason you have it there is because he's personally annoyed you. Either decide the vote is there for in game reasons or please remove it.

Second, we have also had three of five players express desire for the massclaim which sounds like a majority to me, and I do think you're the optimal guy to lead off the popcorn as well. Unless you disagree with the massclaim I'd say you're up. Please claim actions, targets, results, and any other town relevant information you possess and then pick the next person to claim.

Final question - with your stated intent to catch up on reading the thread what sort of time frame do you predict for the endeavor?

[Thor665]

So basically McGriddle needs to die. He lurks the entire game, contributes nothing at all, and somehow manages to make it precariously close to the endgame. (Which we are pretty much at if I'm correct?) I'm really bummed out, honestly. Snow Bunny and Griddle have given us nothing at all to work with the entire game - they are basically forcing us to lynch them. Thor, if you are scum, well played. Same to you, SOG.

The more I read this section of your post the less I like it.

You're basically claiming a lynch all lurkers policy at mylo. That's not smart. Neither mylo or lylo is a good time to be banking on policy lynches.

Yeah, one or both of them might be scum, but it's not reasonable to rule out people simply because they actually post semi-regular. Why couldn't SOG be scum? I seem to recall you (though it might have been esurio) calling him out as a near to top suspect only two days ago (a point I agreed with) and I really can't recall anything super townish he's done between now and then to clear himself particularly. If he's scum it's not like he's awesome elite ninja scum - he's at best regular scum who hasn't opened mouth and inserted foot yet.

Town is in this situation partly because we caught on to the independent amongst us and spent some time getting that lynch, and also because we've suffered two additional night kills. (frankly the more I think about it the more it seems like there has to be only one scum left simply due to how quickly the kills have been coming even with a "successful doc" moment due to the mass block)

If you're town - don't let a policy lynch mindset shut down your scumhunting (as this paragraph seems to be suggesting as you're already tipping hats for well played scum *and* calling the "needs to die" lynch for the day prior to a mass claim).

If you're scum - please continue.

[Thor665]

I would very much appreciate it if anyone that saw it says so now so I can figure what effect it had on the game, if any.

@Mod

I did not see it, but I would like a bit of clarification, if possible, as to what rule he broke. With us going into a massclaim and with his last post I'd rather clear it up so no one else makes the same error.

He violated Standard Rule [05]. To be clear, you are free to paraphrase your role PM's, but under no circumstances can you directly copy paste its contents or reference its structure.

[05] No quoting any PM’s anywhere except for your role name. You may not use MOD TEXT.

[Thor665]

That being said, he is being replaced because he copy-pasted his role pm. Or parts of it? I did not see it. If I am to interpret that correctly, that means he isn't scum. Why would a scummer paste their role pm? iLord would not have booted Griddle from the game if he was scum faking a role pm.

From what I can gather he copy/pasted the powers he listed. As proven earlier the win condition doesn't count in iLord's eyes and Neither iLord nor McGriddle were claiming he posted his role PM so it has to be copy/pasting of powers, win condition, or name, and I don't see either of the later two being an issue to iLord..

My guess is basically it went like this;

McGriddle's role PM:

You are a player.

Power 1: for three villain points you can make everyone have to post in the color fuchsia for the rest of the game.
Power 2: if you post the following 'I am the spam master' I will mail you a can of spam as a reward.

You win with the cows.

What iLord would have accepted from McGriddle;

I am a player who wins with the cows.
I have two powers, one costs 3 villain points and makes everyone post in fuchsia for the rest of the game. I can also post a comment that will make iLord mail me spam.

What McGriddle probably did;

I am a player who wins with the cows.
My powers are:
Power 1: for three villain points you can make everyone have to post in the color fuchsia for the rest of the game.
Power 2: if you post the following 'I am the spam master' I will mail you a can of spam as a reward.

That said, I will agree that probably if McGriddle was copy/pasting stuff verbatim from his role PM that it is less likely that it was a scum PM (unless they get falseclaim powers )

They way [SOG] helped beat down Monkey partially attests to his cred (not that I take that into consideration when putting a percentage on his scumfactor).

If you don't take it into account for assessing his scumfactor then what does it matter for anything? It seems like scum would be just as happy fragging an independent as town.

------------------------------------------

@SOG and Snow_Bunny (and I suppose Snow_Bunny is Awesome too)

Any thoughts on the NKs?
Any thoughts on what happened with McGriddle?

[Thor665]

First of all I'd like to throw Mylo right out the window. Though we may have six players, one of them is Snow_Bunny's clone

You're correct, the clone threw me off. We're in a lylo situation if there are two scum left, not mylo. I officially dislike that clone mechanic.

I would rather have Snow_Bunny full claim before rewq455, since from her we can get reasoning behind anything she might have done, which isn't something we can get from rewq445 any longer.

I disagree with this. Yeah, we get reasoning out of her, but the advantage of having rewq455 roleclaim first is twofold. First off, the slot has already claimed quite a bit and is as good a place to start as any (and frankly considering the nature of the initial soft claim I feel the slot is obligated to claim first anyway).

Second, I want to see rewq455's choice of who to popcorn. We don't have much of a read on McGriddle, I'd like this slot to hit the ground running sooner rather then later.

Finally, having Snow Bunny go second, third, or dead last does very little to effect her ability to explain her reasons for her decisions. They will still be there when she claims and rewq455 will still be obligated to explain the choices of a slot he's replacing into. Changing the order for that alone makes no particular sense I see.

[Thor665]

@Snow Bunny - since you full claimed you might as well be the first one in our popcorn claim now. Could you kindly name who you'd like to claim next?

@Thor: I'd rather not think too much about the NKs. In my experience, both as town and as scum, it brings only wifom into the table. And, about the McGriddle thingy, it's useless to discuss that. He did something that broke a rule. 'nuff said.

To the discussion of NKs - I disagree. It's important to analyze NKs to at least obligate scum to have to pick WIFOM options for the NKs. If you don't analyze then scum are free to kill exactly whom they wish/need to kill. It's better to use the info some way so scum have to play cards closer to their chests.

To the discussion of McGriddle - I do find it interesting that you are against this particular conversation when your scumteam of Thor/Timeater are the ones who did it and used the information to semi-clear a slot you apparently believe is town. Why do you think the scum team would do this?

What do you think makes SOG town?

[Thor665]

@Snow Bunny - since you full claimed you might as well be the first one in our popcorn claim now. Could you kindly name who you'd like to claim next?

1. This is contrary to what you said earlier. Snow Bunny claimed out of the blue outside the 'popcorn' process, that hardly gives her the prerogative to say who she wants to claim. Weren't we supposed to vote first on who we want to start? This is bullSmurf and you know it. You said you wanted McGriddle to claim. You said you want to hear from the replacement first.

I really do not want to claim right now.

It is not contrary to what I said before. What I said before was generally you want to start with the scummiest seeming player (which at the time made McGriddle a solid choice) and I also said that because he had already soft claimed he was a good person to start the popcorn.

Snow_Bunny suddenly jumped in and full claimed (oddly again at no real request - what's with everyone and that in this game?). That puts her over McGriddle's soft claim since now she's out of the popcorn process anyway - at least with McGriddle we can still request powers and targets. I will also clarify that her jumping out of the popcorn like she did does not please me, and will also add that I do not feel the ability to decide who full claims next is a big advantage/power to give her.

If I'm reading the rest of your post correctly I will at least note you claiming first might help verify your townishness to the other players since scum would have to then be reactive. Other then that I'm not sure why this upsets you so much.

@SOG - she may indeed wish Timeater to claim next. I want her to say that as opposed to presuming anything. Why do you feel the need to try to advance that concept yourself instead of letting her clarify?

[Thor665]

Thor- Tried to end RVS early, something which would have helped villains

I had hoped we'd moved beyond this. I have yet to have anyone present to me any logic as to why "ending the RVS" is a scumtell. Also, at what point is ending the RVS "early". Isn't the concept of RVS that it is subjective in length? If you agree that the length of RVS is subjective then;

1. How can I end it early?
2. How does me believing it is over become scummy?
3. At what point are we allowed to start treating posts seriously?

[French accent]I pooh-pooh on your logic here[/French accent]

BTW, ATM I think that Snow_Bunny is most likely to be a hero, just because it would be to cheap for that power to be given to a villain.

It would be equally cheap (probably more, actually) for that power to be given to part of a three person scumteam. Do you think she's part of a two person scum team or a three person? Also, if you think she's scum why do you believe she's telling the truth about what the clone does or does not do and using that as your logic to decide she's scum?

I have it on good authority that scum are often willing to lie during mass claim.

[Thor665]

Does everyone want me to claim? Am I entitled to claim? Are we following Bunny on this one? I dont think its best for the town. But if the answer is yes, I get to say "I told you you so" after I get nightkilled.

I'm not sure where you're going on this one. Was it your intention to ever claim? If by your claim you believe you will be NKed then it was going to happen whether you claimed last or first, wasn't it?

[Thor665]

So yeah. There it is. Any questions?

Egads - I think I'm just happy I didn't get your role.

I am also very interested in you answering SOG's question about why you targeted who you did. Specifically Night 2.

[Thor665]

I am also very interested in you answering SOG's question about why you targeted who you did. Specifically Night 2.

I thought targetting Button would be good considering the win condition situation fiasco.

And apparently I was ninja-ed on my last post. I'd still like you to explain this more. At the end of Day 2 you were pretty sold on them as likely to achieve an instant win - so the possibility of the game being over or Button/Monkey being removed from the game were both high, so why track Button? At the very least he'd be targeting/being targeted by Monkey which would lead to a very fast spread of that color amongst the available players.

Then, on Day 3, you were arguing for a Monkey lynch and saying that Button would be useful - Button the player you suspected enough to track the night before.

I'm just not really following the logic - any insights to help me out here?

[Thor665]

Before rewq, eh? Well at least now I know why I hate SOG since as Dead Bowie he is my hated nemesis;

Nameclaim: Fake Thomas Jefferson

I have a couple of powers;

Vice President - as long as I maintain a certain number of villain points I am a double voter. (I am currently not a double voter)

Filibuster - a mass roleblock.

Capital Punishment - I remove the 'Disrupt the Mayor' Public Deed from the game and usurp the mayor. It requires Hero Points, not Villain Points and awards me Villain points when I do it.

Actions

Night 1 - I committed the Public Deed Volunteer at Homeless Shelter.

Night 2 - Mass Roleblock

Night 3 - I committed the Public Deed Volunteer at Homeless Shelter.

@rewq

You're the final claim.

[Thor665]

Okay, so rewq cannot be scum unless he's scum with Timeater.
By me not insta hammering I can also not be scum unless I'm scum with Timeater.
Both Snow Bunny and Timeater cannot be town because otherwise the scum could have both had enough time to hop on that vote.
Timeater and Snow Bunny could be scum together bussing, but that seems odd considering some of their interactions.
SOG could be scum, but he's not likely to be scum with Timeater.
I personally do not think rewq is scum at all.

So scumpairs are;

Timeater/rewq
Snow Bunny/SOG
SB/Timeater

I think i need to consider this a bit, but we are near a lynch now.

rewq - any thoughts?

[Thor665]

uh, no... Are you saying you saw Griddle's claim? Also, were you working under the assumption that griddle's vote was active?

I think if SOG thought McGriddle's vote was active he would have been more...I dunno, victorious sounding in his post?

His logic for clearing rewq is very similar to mine (and yours). The method of the claim and iLord's issues suggests it probably wasn't a quoted scum PM. The problem is if the scum were actually given fakeclaims to make or powers. Still, if rewq definitely didn't do the NK then in some ways that does make him statistically less likely to be scum then the rest of us.

[Thor665]

I am assuming a Bunny + SOG scumteam, I think its prudent SOG be lynched over Bunny. If they are together and we go Bunny over SOG and she has some ability that saves her, ouchietime.

I can't believe Snow_Bunny, if scum, has the ability she said *and* yet another partner.

So if SB is scum SB is alone *or* is lying about her powers (or I hate the mod ).

So lying SB plus SOG is a possibility, and so is lying SB plus Timeater.

Timeater could be scum with rewq.
SOG cannot be scum with rewq.

Consequently either Timeater or SB are indeed the most likely scum which does make me start to like SOG's thoughts in this regard.

I think I might have to dwell on this a little but I think the smart play is to lynch either SB or Timeater at this point. I'd love to hear thoughts.

[Thor665]

I am thinking that Timeater is scum, because he has not been hammered yet. If there were 2 heroes, and one of them was not him, one would have hammered already because we would need another day to lynch the hammerer, and then more time to find the last hero. However, if Timeater is a hero, the other one will not hammer because we would lynch him the next day, causing a villain victory.

People who hammer do not equate to absolute next lynch.

But you are correct that a lack of hammer on Timeater does indeed make him look like a more likely hero (unless the scum are SB and SOG)

What do you think is more likely? SB/SOG as scum trying to entrap Timeater, or SB/Timeater as scum with SB trying to distance from her partner (perhaps hinted at by Timeater's quick shift from voting SB to voting SOG)

[Thor665]

Single scum scenario - why cant it be Snow Bunny?

It could be only one scum left and have it be Snow_Bunny. The big danger there is, if this is true and her power claim is true, that equates to a town lose if we don't start trying to lynch her now.

On that note;

Vote: Snow_Bunny

I think she has to be part of the scum team if there is a scum team, and if she's telling the truth about her powers and is scum she would be the lone scum and should be targetted immediately as it's the only way we'd have a chance of killing her in time (also, she and Justice Joe are both of the made up names revealed thus far, which seems an odd coincidence but one I'm willing to note as worthwhile for picking her as well)

[Thor665]

MEGA NO. I AM NOT SCUM I AM NOT SCUM. LET THOR COME TO THE DECISION PLEASE

If you are scum then you win my Oscar of awesome.

[Thor665]

Yeah, I still think it's either SB/SOG, SB/Timeater or maybe SB alone.

I've had town reads on Timeater pretty much the whole game so I'm thinking SB/SOG or SB alone - and that may very well depend on whether or not we are able to lynch her.

[Thor665]

You really think I would fakeclaim such a convoluted role? Unlynchable unkillable?

Really, in many ways, your role is less convoluted then the rest of ours. Plus, you don't think a NK immune claim is ever made by scum?

Interesting that the only player not on your suspect list is SOG, who was calling you town. If you flip scum and that doesn't end the game I know where I'm looking tomorrow.

rewq is town, by the way, that's pretty darn obvious at this stage.

[Thor665]

@Button - I still pooh-pooh the concept that "ending the RVS" is scummy. Did I do anything else that was scummy? This was my first time as scum and I'm curious if I had legitimate bad tells.

As far as killing you and Monkey you can see the conversation as it happened in the quick topic. The short version is that we did some analysis and realized that if both of you "left the game" then between my double vote power and the fact it was a three scum game we would basically be at Scum win after two mislynches which just felt unlikely since it would be so unfair to town. Consequently we decided your win condition was either pro-town or usurped our win con and decided to stop you.

I also said this in the quick topic - but I'm legitimately sorry I wasn't on the same team as esurio and Timeater. I enjoyed both their play and felt...well...scummy for having to mislead them. Hopefully next time we'll be on the same side.

[Thor665]

Well, except for the roleblock abilities, which could have still stopped you - also per the info sheet the Profess ability happens dead last, so players with kill effects could have killed either of you prior to the Profess effect.

I do think your scumtell on me is more a playstyle tell - as I do play my other games (as town) in an identical fashion (I've had this called both super townie and obv. scumness - sometimes in the same game). I am working on my method to include more definitive statements as I have had some endgame situations where people suspect me because I was "neutral" feeling to them early game. It's still too early for me to clearly decide if my efforts in that regard will help or not. I do think it would be interesting to play another game with you sometime where you're less focused on an alternate win con as I do enjoy seeing different town/scum playstyles at work and clearly yours is quite different from my own.

@iLord - as a potential wrinkle to the game if you try to re-balance it I will alert you to a fear I almost had going into endgame. It's within fluff for Captain Hammer to have his own win con separate from the heroes - and I actually did feel the need to recheck my own win con. prior to submitting the last NK because I was starting to wonder if maybe Hammer was planning to coldcock me and drink love potion number 10 himself, as it were.

Beyond that as an idea I'm too dumb to want to try to juggle the idea of balance with that many disparate powers. I will agree Timeater's role seemed slow/weak, but then I guess scum did luck out on some of the early deaths (like Bad Horse, whew!).

[Thor665]

Yeah, you were just in sort of a dangerous spot since Monkey and Button both saw a solid chance to make a move on their win condition and unfortunately that path included you, a rope, and a tree.

If I can ask, why esurio? I was never really clear on why she was the target of that ability from you.

[Thor665]

Thor - Why wasn't I hammered? You had ample time.

As noted in the quick topic and earlier. Basically since I had literally about three different powers and everyone else was listing out one or two I was fearful that someone was holding back a power. I decided it was better to go into Night with at least a fair part of the town likely still thinking I was town, rather then dropping the hammer suddenly which would mark me as obv. scum.

It turned out to be a meaningless concern on my part, but that was my logic.

Mass roleblock on scum is gay.

Well, I am the lone homosexual role ::rimshot::

[Thor665]

I'll agree with that - silence a player for a day and then they die, if anything happens to the poisoner during the interim then there's no way to get them an antidote. That was tailor made to help scum pretty much.

[Thor665]

If it's any consolation I appear to be losing all my concurrently played town games so clearly I burnt up all my brilliance here.