Mini 1009 ÔÇô Popularity mafia (Game over - Mafia wins)

[Blackberry]

I saw this was posted, although I do not have a PM yet telling us about this thread. ^_^

I do not like random voting. I know that is unusual and goes agains't most people's idea of how to begin the game. I'll let you kids figure out the random voting, and when things come up that I find odd, then a vote shall be cast by me . If you find me being anti-random voting unusual, please discuss.

[Blackberry]

I feel like my being defensive of BB is going to cause trouble later in the game,

especially if by some weird chance he flips scum

, however, I have come under scrutiny because of the same stance and in an effort to explain my point, I will try to explain his.

This is the type of thing, had I heard it about someone else, I would think the two were mafia partners. I don't get the "by some weird chance he flips scum." What reason do you have to believe I'm NOT going to flip scum?

---------

Vote: BlackBerry

Taking a passive role in perhaps the most insightful part of the game is anti-town. Doing something anti-town deliberately is perhaps worse.

How am I taking a passive role? My intention is to provoke discussion. You also mention that I intend to "sit back and play idly". What gave you that impression?

[Blackberry]

This is the type of thing, had I heard it about someone else, I would think the two were mafia partners.

What do you mean?

I think that he is saying that if he were someone else, Blackberry or Mothrax would be the lynch today.

Not "would be the lynch today". Just something that would spike my radar as them two being together (aka me and mothrax), and I would further probe them to see if anything comes of it.

Mothrax's reaction to scotmany12, although waranted, almost seems a bit overexaggerated. scotmany12 I believe is an experienced player, I think he would know to say something, even as mafia. I do question why he didn't say anything though. I guess to me, knowing scotmany12 is experienced, as a mafia or a townsperson, it doesn't make sense to me that scotmany12 didn't write any explanation... O_o.

Also, Simenon, at this current time, I think you've spiked my interest the most.

First, you make a short post, completely ignoring the other conflicts going on (from reading old games, I notice this is what scum do when a partner is in the other conflict and doesn't want to get themselves involved).

Vote mothrax for equivocating.

Then you ask a short question for me,

I don't understand

why you would ask me that question. The comment I made made sense, so I don't see why you wouldn't understand it. The only reason I can see to ask that question is for you to further provoke the comment so you can entice me to argue that me or mothrax should be targets. So, if you are genuinely a townsperson, you shouldn't have trouble answering this: what aspect of my comment didn't you understand? What was your intentions in asking that question?

My philosophy is that mafia players can't fake sincerity like the real town people are. Even if they are really experienced, they won't be able to fake suspecting people and analyzing people the same way a genuine townsperson would. And the reason I am telling you, and everyone this, is because I want the mafia to be intimidated. The more intimidated you are, they more likely I'll find that fakeness that envelopes the mafia and I'll catch it.

---------

Also, I'm posting too much since my original post for it to play out completely (I'm very eager to play forum mafia again after so long ). For the record,

Kort's

vote on me strikes me as suspect. Ecto seems to be smart in realizing that my intentions were to ignire discussion. From my prospective, if I do something unusual to the mafia forums, the mafia will snap at that and attempt to make me an easy target because of this. Korts immediately voting me and turning what I said into something "anti-town" as he puts it is something I would have expected mafia to do. I wish I had waited to everyone had posted to see if anyone else tried to jump on me for it, but at this time, I feel like the discussions have developed into other things and if and who people vote might be out of that initial beginning stage. The fact that Korts did that, and then Simoneon next post was ignoring anything Kort said and that he failed to comment on it.

Ecto seems smart, if he is mafia, he'll be a worthy adversary, but at this time my read on him is that he is town (just an initial read, nothing more). Also, my read on mothrax is town (moreso gut, but like I said, these two reads are just initial reads, nothing I am sticking with at this time for sure until the game continues on).

[Blackberry]

BB: you expressed a dislike of RVS and an unwillingness to participate in it,

but didn't propose anything else.

You had the initiative by virtue of being the first poster, but you passed up the opportunity of doing

anything proactive

, expressing only the intention of giving analysis once something "odd" crops up. That, to me, shows that you aren't interested in stimulating and steering discussion, when that's exactly what I think a pro-town player should be doing.

A) I didn't propose anything else,

I did propose

yall do the random voting. (I'll let you kids figure out the random voting). I simply just don't want to do it myself.

B) I did something proactive by stirring discussion. (If you find me being anti-random voting unusual, please discuss.)

As to your comment about mothrax, why do you discount (or at least fail to mention) the possibility of him buddying up to you?

Reading his posts, I don't think he intended to buddy up to me or even defend me, just agree with me in his initial post. In his second post, I think some of his words were odd. Overall, however, I think he is being genuine in his actions and reactions, I do not get the feeling he is mafia trying to buddy up to me so I can get killed, turn town, and make him look clearer.

Preview edit: BB kinda seems to be downplaying the connection between him and mothrax, especially considering this sentence:

Korts, if you are town in a game and there is someone who is slightly looking like they are buddying up to you, but not really, what would you do?

I am downplaying it because I don't think his actions were intentional.

(Referring to Mothrax) Also, who do you think is more likely to admit their personal opinion that they also don't like random voting, a townsperson, or a mafia?

[Blackberry]

Mothrax's reaction to scotmany12, although waranted, almost seems a bit overexaggerated. scotmany12 I believe is an experienced player, I think he would know to say something, even as mafia. I do question why he didn't say anything though. I guess to me, knowing scotmany12 is experienced, as a mafia or a townsperson, it doesn't make sense to me that scotmany12 didn't write any explanation... O_o.

There are plenty of reasons to not post reasoning. I'm surprised, with you being and

experienced

player,

why you think there would be no reason to vote without reasoning, especially this early in the game.

I wanted to see how he reacted, and he reacted poorly.

The underlined part I understand, the bolded part I do not.

[Blackberry]

Then you ask a short question for me, I don't understand why you would ask me that question.

It's hard to believe that you don't see the advantage in asking instead of telling. If I point out the flaw in your post, it conditions your response.

I didn't say I don't see an advantage in asking questions, I said I don't understand

why

you would ask me that question.

Your policy of staying out of the fray is unproductive at best, but I think you've convinced me that it's more than that. At the very least, it would help to knock you out of your self-made perch.

First off, when did I ever say that my policy is to stay out of the fray?

Second off, what are you referring to when you referenchnig a "self-made perch"?

I find both your comments offensive because they suggest you are making assumptions that come from no where.

Your post was essentially arguing that, if you weren't town, those posts would be scummy. It's a useless and silly point to make. What exactly were you trying to accomplish?

My post does not say "if I weren't town, those posts would be scummy" it says, if I weren't ME and I didn't know my own alignment, that post would be summy.

My philosophy is that mafia players can't fake sincerity like the real town people are. Even if they are really experienced, they won't be able to fake suspecting people and analyzing people the same way a genuine townsperson would. And the reason I am telling you, and everyone this, is because I want the mafia to be intimidated. The more intimidated you are, they more likely I'll find that fakeness that envelopes the mafia and I'll catch it.

I'm not buying any of this. The verbosity, the rhetoric, it all sounds pretty fake.

[/quote]

This is my philosophy. Whether you are questioning it because it's not the norm, or you're questioning it because you're mafia trying to attack my playstyle, I do not know.

[Blackberry]

Mothrax's reaction to scotmany12, although waranted, almost seems a bit overexaggerated. scotmany12 I believe is an experienced player, I think he would know to say something, even as mafia. I do question why he didn't say anything though. I guess to me, knowing scotmany12 is experienced, as a mafia or a townsperson, it doesn't make sense to me that scotmany12 didn't write any explanation... O_o.

There are plenty of reasons to not post reasoning. I'm surprised, with you being and

experienced

player,

why you think there would be no reason to vote without reasoning, especially this early in the game.

I wanted to see how he reacted, and he reacted poorly.

The underlined part I understand, the bolded part I do not.

I might have worded it incorrectly. There are plenty of reasons not post a reasoning while voting. Why doesn't it make sense to you that I would provide no reasoning?

Because if you're voting someone after some attacks have been made agains't them, it seems odd not to give a comment with your opinions. As I stated before, at that time I didn't think it said anything about you being mafia or town, because I think even if you were mafia, you wouldn't just vote and not saying anything. At this time, I guess it makes sense for you to have done it to see how he reacted (something I didn't think of) - although I feel there might be more to it.

[Blackberry]

By the way, BB, you apparently had no problem with this:

@scotmany12: care to elaborate?

Why would I have a problem with that? It was a question that made sense.

-----------

mothrax - The Vote Count is at the top of the page.

[Blackberry]

I am currently not confident enough in any of my suspects to cast a vote.

I need to hear more from Simoneon and Korts to get a better analysis.

[Blackberry]

I think Iron Man wants the fairy title of

Mafia Masochist

.

[Blackberry]

Hello.

Blackberry seems content to withhold his vote and post fluff as of post #57.

Unvote:
Vote: Blackberry

Ecto's jump is noted. He is in the ongoing game in which scum was lynched D1 for "pretending" not to have seen a second page. Him not mirroring my read and keeping his vote on Iron Man is suspicious.

A) I've already said I was waiting for Simoneon and Korts to respond. I posted one bit of "fluff" as you call it.

B) Reading what people have posted, I am getting some town reads on a few people. I however, wish to focus on Korts/Simoneon for a bit considering nobody else has peaked my radar (except you, and right now). You are doing a lot of things that do not make sense.

C) Why would someone pretend not to see a second page? What would a mafia or town, or anyone, gain from pretending not to read a page? Iron Man clearly noticed his mistake right away and made another post about what he missed.

D) Your jumpy attitude is raising a lot of red flags.

E) Your lack of addressing anyone that is voting you, also raises flags O_o.

[Blackberry]

Do you see my point here? Whatever the reason for mothrax basically calling you town, you should be suspicious, not taking his side.

I get an overall town vibe from him. I did mention I was somewhat suspscious. But overall, I get a town vibe

Why downplay his scumminess as well?

I didn't downplay his scumminess? I've been honest and when he's done stuff that has drawn suspcion I've mentioned it.

Not to mention that as an experienced player you should be aware of a multitude of reasons not to give reasoning with a vote, and hence your statement that mothrax's reaction was warranted, without an analysis of context and mothrax's experience, is also suspect.

As an "experienced player" I do not recall having seen it done before like that. When someone is getting attacked, and then someone just votes him without making any comments (to the best of my memory). As I said though, I stated this was something that

didn't make sense to me

, not that indicated to me that he was mafia.

Just for reference/future, although I have experience, when people say "experienced player" I typically think of someone who has played online mafia for years, follows the general patterns and accepted playstyle that most people use and plays the way people expect a smart person to play. I wouldn't define myself as what I just said for three reasons:

A) I do not like conformity and play differently than everyone else, for example, I never use the terms "FOS" or "WIFOM"
B) I haven't played mafia on the forums in probably over a year or more
C) I'm used to playing mafia in person rather than on a forum, where things are drastically different

Both statements are terrible in the same way.

I was being honest with the town about how I felt about a statement that is said. I don't understand how that is terrible. You think I should keep my thoughts and feelings to myself?

I'm saying this philosophy is vacuous. Obviously the scum need to be intimidated; obviously their behavior will be different from that of the town's. You might as well say that catching scum is your philosophy.

Obviously, you do not understand what I mean then. Because my purpose of saying that was to state that I don't look for mafia the same way most people do. I look at how sincere I think people are acting. Most people look for contradictions and attempt to psych out their competition (whether mafia or town) by using aggressive logic and pointing out flaws that people make (which even townspeople make flaws). My way is different because I can't point to facts and specific accounts and say "this is this." It's just a general feel of the way someone says something and whether or not they are actually being sincere when they say it (I realize this is not how most people play, I have gotten in a heated debate about it before on another online mafia game, but it's what works best for me, as my personal belief is that mafia try to look for small "mistakes" or fishy actions that townies make, and capitalize on those mistakes by attempting to use logic).

----------

Vote: Thief

- At the moment his vote on me and his reasons don't make a lot of sense. Also, and here is what I was talking about sincerity, reading his references to other games and someone "pretending" not to see a post, etc. etc., makes me think he may have a genuine reason to suspect Iron Man. HOWEVER, he isn't voting Iron Man, he is voting me, and his reasons for suspecting me, I can not see a genuine angle to suspect me from his reasonings. Mafia can't genuinely vote people the same way town do, they only pretend to vote people. I don't see genuineness in him that I am more suspscious than Iron Man, thus why I am voting him. How he responds to my previous questions will determine whether I am more confident in my suspcions of him, or whether I can see him being genuine.

[Blackberry]

Both statements are terrible in the same way.

I was being honest with the town about how I felt about a statement that is said. I don't understand how that is terrible. You think I should keep my thoughts and feelings to myself?

It's terrible because regardless of who Mothrax says it about, it is scummy. Why you don't find it scummy because he said it about you is eye raising. Why does it matter that he said it about you? You pretty much said that if he said that about anyone else, you would find it scummy. Why does it matter that he said it about you?

@Thief: Please elaborate why you think Blackberry is scummy.

Because it is something that, if said, would make me think, "THOSE TWO ARE SCUM TOGETHER" (in any other situation, I would read it as "mothrax knows BB will come up as scum and is trying to protect himself if BB gets lynched," but knowing that isn't the guess, I don't see it as scummy.)

[Blackberry]

Mothrax being afraid of being seen as defending scum later on is not a towntell. Scum often ask that they not be viewed as "defending" a certain player, as they don't want connections being drawn.

Did anyone ask that they not be viewed as "defending" a certain player?

Someone may have asked why I find Blackberry suspicious. There is plenty of other cases on him right now, and his play before my vote has been discussed (such as his awkward interaction with Morthrax's comment). I'll comment on his most recent move:

There's are cases on me? Please elaborate what case you see agains't me.

He votes me for not being genuine. The fact that he misreps my Iron Man vote as genuine (

when it was in fact not, but merely a reaction test for Ecto who has recent experience with that scumtell

, and for others by quickly changing it).

Ecto's jump is noted. He is in the ongoing game in which scum was lynched D1 for "pretending" not to have seen a second page.

Him not mirroring my

read

and keeping his vote on Iron Man is suspicious.

You said your read. A read means you genuinely think someone is suspcious, yet, you just said I am misrepresenting your Iron Man vote and that it wasn't genuine. You just contradicted yourself.

^If these are the questions you want me to answer than they are weak questions, as my vote is no longer on Iron Man.

1) What purpose does a town serve in calling a question "weak" - WEAK is the type of adjective Mafia would use in order to discount a person that mafia wants attacked.

2) My question doesn't have to do with who you are currently voting. My question has to do with the fact that, when one is playing as town they vote people they are suspcious of and have reasoning. When one is playing as mafia, they contrieve reasonings to vote players, but they aren't genuine in their accusations.

Also scum could potentially gain from pretending not to read a page (as I said a scum was caught this way in another game) by appearing "careless" like a townie. Also I'm not going to answer what town would gain for not pretending because town

wouldn't

pretend, that's my whole point.

Once again, you are describing your reasons for voting Iron Man as if it was a legitimate reason, yet you said you weren't being genuine in voting Iron Man.

You are contradicting yourself by saying A) You weren't genuinely voting Iron Man and B) Giving reasons for why you genuinely voted Iron Man.

[Blackberry]

I'm not buying it, your attacks and defense just have too many holes

Agreed.

P.S: I just saw Inception, and it was mind blowing

Agreed.

I don't understand why more people don't see Theif's contradictions, aka commenting on it and questioning him for it. O_o

Agreed.

[Blackberry]

I am not a "dumbass," in fact, far from it if my GPA, test scores, and language proficiencies say anything. I will ask you nicely once, please do not attack me as a person. Attack me as a player all you want, fine, but please don't cross that line again.

I was going to say something simular, but apparently Ectomancer has been replaced. Regardless, I don't think it's beneficial for anyone for people to get angry with people and call them hateful names. I understand at times things can and will be frustrating when other people do not understand your viewpoint/think your viewpoint is wrong, but using angry words only invokes hatefulness, and if one or both or town, that hatefulness only helps the mafia. Plus, this game is meant for fun, and if someone had used the word to call me a "dumbass" or something along those lines, I wouldn't be having fun anymore.

[Blackberry]

I am disappointed Ecto left now though, he was someone that provoked people, and those provokings can get people to react, thus allowing for better reads on people. :/

[Blackberry]

Ok after my read threw I have to say that my scum meter flaired up when reading Blackberry's post. My reasoning for this is that he always is trying to justify and make himslef clear. He also rebuts just about anything, nomatter what or who it's about. I see this as a tactic in which he is trying to make himself look useful and smart thus gaining the towns trust, but I see right threw it

Vote: Blackberry

A) Which post are you referring to?

B) "I'm trying to justify and make myself clear" - so you are saying townspeople should say things and not justify them? Also, in a game where the TOWN VOTES on who to save each night, you think it's a bad idea to "justify yourself and make oneself clear." I find that very odd.

C) Where have I rebutted everything no matter who or what it's about?

D) What are your thoughts on Thief after reading my posts on him?

mothrax: I would much rather have you not overreacting to in-game scumhunting tactics than you replacing out. Emotions play a part in mafia, and it's wholly unprofessional to take the emotional outbursts out of the game and handle them like they're serious attacks. I realize you may not enjoy the game as we play it, but not only is this provocative element a natural part of any argument, it's a valuable scumhunting tool. Political correctness never found scum.

Meanwhile, there's not enough votes on Blackberry. or mothrax, for that matter. Wishy-washy connections all round. If we could have parallel wagons on them, that would be nice, tyia

I also tend to agree with Simenon about Iron Man and Cuetlachtli. I'm surprised Cuetlachtli's overreaction to Ecto didn't raise more eyebrows.

The fact that he misreps my Iron Man vote as genuine

Wait what. How can someone misrep your thought process if you haven't made any claims to what your thought process is? I realize Blackberry is scum, but don't be throwing shit at random, just what's sure to stick. And then we can lynch you afterward for throwing shit to see what sticks. And blatant wagonhopping. And then some.

A) You're comment "I realize Blackberry is scum" suggests you are confident that I am scum, HOWEVER, I see no reason for you to feel that way. So please, elaborate why you think that. A genuine town player would have reasons to think someone is mafia. Mafia, on the other hand, will just say they think someone is mafia, and not have the realness to back it up.

B) You suggest lynching Thief

after

me. Which almosts suggests to me that you KNOW I'll turn up innocent. Afterall, why lynch Thief for suspect a mafia player if that is what you actually think I am?

[Blackberry]

Hey Korts

it's kind of scummy to dodge questions

. Please answer them I'm quite interested in the answers.

Ok after my read threw I have to say that my scum meter flaired up when reading Blackberry's post. My reasoning for this is that he always is trying to justify and make himslef clear. He also rebuts just about anything, nomatter what or who it's about. I see this as a tactic in which he is trying to make himself look useful and smart thus gaining the towns trust, but I see right threw it

Vote: Blackberry

A) Which post are you referring to?

B) "I'm trying to justify and make myself clear" - so you are saying townspeople should say things and not justify them? Also, in a game where the TOWN VOTES on who to save each night, you think it's a bad idea to "justify yourself and make oneself clear." I find that very odd.

C) Where have I rebutted everything no matter who or what it's about?

I found this contradiction humorous, although I am making nothing of it at the moment (I mostly just get annoyed when people don't answer my question right away).

[Blackberry]

First, that quote thing in my previous post didn't work: A, B, and C should be in a quote.

BB: I've made my case against you. Your inconsistent stance toward mothrax is a big point against you. And I really resent your know-it-all attitude about what town and mafia do and their reasonings for doing so.

Please grow some perspective and realize that no two people think exactly alike

, regardless of alignment. Your second point doesn't really make much sense. The suspicion of Thief has nothing to do with you.

* Inconsistent stance on mothrax? I get the gut feeling he is town. Show me how I am inconsistent.

* You are voting me because you resent my attitude? Nothing that has to do with my alignment, but how I percieve and play the game? Explain to me how that makes any sense.

* I think the stance that the mafia can not genuinely look for scum the same way town do IS true. You disagree with that? When did I say two people think exactly alike? I find your bolded comment offensive, because you assume incorrect ideas. I am a very open-minded individual and am well aware that no two people play alike, regardless: mafia can not fake the sincere scumhunting that a real townsperson has. I don't see how you could think that stance is wrong.

* Your suspicion of Thief SHOULD have to do with me, because his "throwing shit at random" is at ME.

[Blackberry]

BB: your inconsistency comes from you admitting that what mothrax said relating to your likely alignment flip would be scummy--that is, if you didn't know YOUR alignment. The two have nothing to do with each other, that is, your knowledge of your own alignment and mothrax's behavior.

Did you read what I've said? I said I would find it as something that indicates that the two people mentioned were

scum together

.

And no, my resentment has no bearing on my vote, that was just meant as a side comment. You acting like you're dispensing superior knowledge about optimal scum and town behavior in every post of yours is just... fucking annoying me no end. I don't mean to insult you, but you insult my intelligence with your attitude, whether you do it intentionally or not.

I don't understand how I insult your intelligence. I think I may have insulted your intelligence by the fact I set up a controversial discussion about random voting and you were the first player to take the easy attack on me for it. But that's another topic.

Being that A) you were the first person to take the bait and go for the easy attack raises ideas you could be mafia, your constant hopping from person to person makes me suspect of you a tad bit. However, you are atleast doing something. If you are mafia, atleast you'll put pressure on people and get them to react.

I could also see you as a town, whose resentment towards my attitude has blurred your read on me. Or as a mafia that sees me as a threat (although I don't really believe that, it does give my ego a boost )... lol.

I'll stick with Thief - and I still don't understand why others are doing the same. He blantedly contradicted himself about whether his suspect was a real suspect or not, and has still not explained it. Don't let him slide by.

[Blackberry]

The "some odd chance" was me assuming there are 3-4 scum, which makes it a 25-33% chance that he will...

This sticks out to me as odd.

I still don't have a scummy read on him, nor do I really have a townie read on him

This almost sticks out to me as you trying to make it look like we're partners and we're distancing from eachother. (If you

were

mafia, it'd benefit you to make us look like scum together, because if I get lynched first, it makes you look more clear, or if you got lynched first, it'd make me an easy lynch next time around - buying the rest of your scum team more time).

----- -----

I think what bothers me more is that people are quick to hop on and vote drmyshottyizsik and not doing the same thing to THIEF...

when they have both done simular things. Aka, in other words, I get the feeling that drmyshottyizsik may have atleast one mafia attacking him.

[Blackberry]

I would be

more

suspicious of mothrax if I had been the subject of his comment, not less. That there is the inconsistency in my eyes, your complete ignorance of buddying possibilities.

And this is bullshit. Its a scummy statement no matter what. "If by some weird chance so and so turns up scum" is a scummy statement because it implies that the player, mothrax in this situation, has knowledge of so and so's alignment, which would be BB. Only person who would have knowledge of alignments would be scum. Town has no reason to say what mothrax said concerning BB.

I understand what you guys are saying. At the time, to me- in my head- knowing that I am town, it doesn't make sense for a Mafia to say that about an innocent person (it'd make sense for a mafia to say that about another mafia). That was my main thing. And the rest of what he said, I didn't think he'd be a mafia trying to buddy up with me, considering it was A) really early in the game and B) buddying is something I see the "smart, sterotypical, experienced" players do - and mothrax wasn't sounding like that the way he was talking.

You're playing semantics. "Read" can also mean (and in this case, did) my read of the situation, not my 100% scum or town read on someone. My read in that case was that I "read" the situation as similar to the one in an ongoing game, and voted accordingly to see what would happen, and Ecto did not react in the way I would expect someone coming from that game to react.

Last time I was accused of "playing semantics" it was a MAFIA PLAYER trying to defend himself agains't what I saw (I think I see things differently, especially since no one else is voting Thief for my reasonings). This makes me confident in my vote.

1) What purpose does a town serve in calling a question "weak" - WEAK is the type of adjective Mafia would use in order to discount a person that mafia wants attacked.

Or weak is just a word and you again using semantics in order to paint my play as scummier than it is.[/quote]

See above.

Let's see how you respond to this post. In other news:

This seems like a scare tactic, like "back off and change your mind or I'll vote you again."

[Blackberry]

Theorizing Blackberry and I are scum together after what has can not come from a town state of mind. He "realizes" BB is scum, and calls me scum as well? And doesn't say I'm obvbussing, just blatant wagonhopping?

I don't think he truly believes I am scum with BB as he

claims as he has made no connections or posts to tie us together. This reads as a half-ass attempt to line up lynches.

The bolded part is actually what I look for typically and leads me to believe "Aha! Scum!" -- Thief stating that he feels that way about someone almost makes me think he may be town (aka I see it as a towntell... I'll have to go back and read everything and digust whether I would come to a conclusion that Thief did and if it's something I think I would see as town if I were in Thief's shoes or whether Thief's words are just something he is saying as mafia that he has used in the past and saw worked). Aka, if I can see Thief being genuine in this belief, I may actually reconsider my suspcions. Although, as I've pointed out, the contradictions and the semantics comments are red flags for me.

It's kind of hilarious how BB keeps repeating this phrase:

A genuine town player

as though using the word "town" as much as possible in a sentence could actually influence anyone's opinion of him (apart from the obvious No True Scotsman argument).
BB has consistently padded his arguments with this kind of drivel. Take this comment from post 123:

* I think the stance that the mafia can not genuinely look for scum the same way town do IS true. You disagree with that? When did I say two people think exactly alike? I find your bolded comment offensive, because you assume incorrect ideas. I am a very open-minded individual and am well aware that no two people play alike, regardless: mafia can not fake the sincere scumhunting that a real townsperson has. I don't see how you could think that stance is wrong.

Bits like "I am a very open-minded individual" accomplish nothing except frame the debate in terms of personal insult. Had the purpose of this comment been to refute Korts' point, he could have done so in one sentence, not five. If you remove the empty rhetoric from the post, you're not left with much.
~
I eagerly await the above promised analysis. I wouldn't mind a lurker wagon if those promises aren't fulfilled.

* I don't use the phrase genuine town to make people think I am town. I use it because I am trying to spread my theory around. The word genuine has more to do with

emotion

and

feeling

. That is my point of using that word.

* The "I am a very open-minded individual" comment was for the purpose of expressing that I was offended by being called otherwise.

* I like to post a lot because I am not afraid to express what is on my mind. I think people that type short things and sum things up in one sentence are typically people who are mafia and afraid that if they express themselves too much something will stick out.

* How you are attacking my post makes me think you're trying to look for small things to use as evidence (something mafia would do- when a townsperson looks at things, they usually point out what they see right away, what you are pointing out are very minor things that one would have to read and used twisted words to make it look like you have a point).

Vote count

(12 players alive = 7 to lynch before deadline)

(2) Thief - eljcko, Blackberry
(2) mothrax - scotmany12, ChannelDelibird
(2) drmyshottyizsik - mothrax, Korts
(1) Blackberry – drmyshottyizsik
(1) Iron Man – Simenon
(1) Korts - Thief

Not voting: Cuethlachtli, Iron Man, tumescence

:arrow: Day 1 – (Deadline is August 10)

[Blackberry]

V/LA 7/29 to 8/24

I will have access, but not sure how much and only on my phone

Seeing how the deadline is August 10th and Days usually last three weeks, Mothrax could potentially be out TWO Days. I think this is grounds to start looking for a replacement for Mothrax.

I concur.

[Blackberry]

I don't mind verbosity or post length, but I would like highly concentrated arguments.

If he proves to be scum, I do think it has been enormously helpful. But if he is town, I can't see how his playstyle has been anything but a distraction.

These statements are very telling to me about you as a person. You come off to me as someone who is very close-minded to how mafia should be played and what should be done.

We need a wagon on someone quiet.

I agree with this. This game seems to have lagged quite a bit.

Just posting to say I'm alive. I'd share my thoughts on everything, but nothing regarding my views has changed

Share your thoughts on everything. Also- what are your "views"?

[Blackberry]

These statements are very telling to me about you as a person. You come off to me as someone who is very close-minded to how mafia should be played and what should be done.

I know a couple ways it shouldn't be played. Please prove me wrong.

How shouldn't it be played? How can I prove you wrong? If I can correctly identify one or two mafia members via my method before I die will that prove you wrong? (I'll make a big bold post saying that this person is my guess based on my method)

The "close-minded" accusation is pretty rich coming from someone who said:

I think people that type short things and sum things up in one sentence are typically people who are mafia and afraid that if they express themselves too much something will stick out.

If people say things in short snippits I can't get a good read on them and can't identify them as mafia. This is me encouraging people to express themselves more and talk.

I agree with this. This game seems to have lagged quite a bit.

Who would you suggest?[/quote]

Not really sure (I would suggest

drmyshottyizsik

, mostly because I don't feel he's doing anything on top of him voting me and me not liking his explanations - but that is bias in terms of who is being active and who isn't). I am under an assumption

Iron Man

is on some sort of V/LA because he disappeared in another game he was participating in.

I think I am more concerned with wanting everyone to just post more and put in input.

[Blackberry]

Can people stop asking for others to post all their reads? It is not helpful to the town to have all our reads out in the open. Especially in a setup where we are going to nominate someone to have NK immunity.

I disagree, I think if people reveal their reads, we can tell if someone is being genuine, or if they are faking it. I don't understand how it effects who we give NK Immunity to?

Korts & drmyshottyizsik

& Everyone Else
-- I was about to ask for a replacement too, being that, I have been busy lately and didn't know if I had time to read through all the posts and play to my full potential. HOWEVER, since three other people have already done so (and they are doing it out of "not caring for the game" while I care for the game and just don't know how to allocate my time with my new schedule), I am not going to do so, because the mod doesn't deserve that.

That being said, I will be on later tonight and catch up (I honestly just read this page).

[Blackberry]

I had a little more time than I thought I did today, but now I got to go... here is what I briefly read on Page 8...

it seems like you knew BB was scum and was trying to distance yourself so you wouldn't be lynched as well...

Tried to buddy with BB until he thought people thought he was scum.

You contradict yourself. Orginally your theory is that me and him are scum together. Then you end your theory with you think he tried to buddy with me (something mafia does to town, no?). A townsperson would keep their ideas and theories straight, a mafia, not-so-much.

...

Simenon

- Where does it say there are two mafia?

[Blackberry]

nopointinactingup

-- Your last post strikes me as odd. I think it's the lack of consistency. For example, you say Thief is unlikely to be with Korts, or Simenon unlikely to be with myself, yet, you don't say that Korts is unlikely to be with Thief, or me unlikely to be with Simenon. Also, I found it interesting you included yourself as unlikely to be with Korts. His analysis of Thiefs is exactly what mine was, at first I thought he was just taking my thoughts and making them his own, but rereading his thoughts on Thief, I do believe they are his own thoughts and that he actually looked at Thief. I actually have no idea what to make of this. At the very least, it's atleast helpful, and overall I get a slight town vibe from it. I think the old drmy contradicted himself in his theory for why he wanted mothrax lynched - and I shall keep my vote there for the time being. Although to be honest, I really am not sure what to make of any of it because I get conflict thoughts (like I have with Thief's old behavior vs. new behavior).

Some questions for nopointinactingup:

* How do I act "approval-seeking" (and also- why is "approval-seeking" scummish?)

---

On the reversal of things, I would like Korashk to elaborate on his vote. Your post doesn't give me good vibes.

[Blackberry]

I'm really drunk right now, I'm going to try tapping into my intuitive powers and see if I can spot mafia via a brief skim through of everything.

[Blackberry]

Cuethlachtli - MAFIA (check)
mothrax - TOWN
Tazaro (Iron Man) - MAFIA (check)
tumescence - TOWN
eljcko - TOWN
Thief - TOWN
Korashk (Korts) - TOWN
nopointinactingup (drmyshottyizsik ) (Ectomancer) - TOWN
ChannelDelibird - MAFIA
Simenon - MAFIA - TOWN
scotmany12 - TOWN

----

I have no idea what this means. This is my intuitive read upon seeing people. I can reexamine this when I am sober and see if I make any sense or am just dumb when sober.

[Blackberry]

I don't know what to make of my drunk accusations. I

think

I might just ignore them (although, I might keep a close eye on the people that popped up as mafia for me), but at the end of the game if they are right or wrong, I'll know in the future to get drunk to assist my mafia-detecting abilities. LOL

[Blackberry]

Cuet -

did you even read what I said?

I have no idea what this means. This is my intuitive read upon seeing people.

^--- That

I remember reading posts and eventually I got to a point where when I skimmed through the page someone's screenname and image popped up to me as SCUM or was faded indicated townie. I have no idea what I am talking about. Regardless, I was drunk. I clearly stated that it was intuitive read, what part needs elaborating? I also said I don't think I'll pay much attention to my drunkness thoughts.

[Blackberry]

No. I think I've mentioned Thief has done stuff recently that makes me think he isn't mafia. Also, if you've read my posts, I haven't read-up on everything at one point, and still have yet to do so. The way you are reacting to my drunk post makes me think you're taking it too serious (maybe I hit you and one or both of your partners and now you're paranoid about it?).

For example, the statement + the eyeroll feels to me like you're getting defensive about my post.

Unvote

I will vote later when I read up on things more.

[Blackberry]

Also BB, are you invalidating your earlier reads because you were "drunk?" If not, you need to at least elaborate on the scum reads.

Once again, I don't think you're reading.

I have no idea what this means. This is my intuitive read upon seeing people.

What part of

intuitive

do you think is validatable? What part of

intuitive

do you think needs elaborated on?

Once again, I think you are getting overdefensive.

VOTE: Cuet

[Blackberry]

In a hurry, will post later. But CDB is someone I will definetely consider voting - pending on what is needed for deadline (majority vs. most votes).

[Blackberry]

Since ChannelDeliBird lives in the UK, presumably, he is most likely asleep right now. Thus, I am going to assume that he isn't going to post anything of value before the deadline, which is tomorrow. While I would rather lynch Nopoint today, CDB is seemingly our only viable lynch option, and since the cost-benefit of him being lynched is fair given his content (or lack of), I am going to vote to lynch him.

unvote, vote: ChannelDeliBird

Disclaimer: The deadline is set for around noon, my time, tomorrow. Since I work full-time, it will be unlikely for me to read any new posts of CDB, no matter how brilliant they may be (see CDB iso 2, 3, 6 & 7), tomorrow morning.

Your over-explanation of why you are voting for CDB almost seems like you are bussing him to make yourself look better. This makes me think CDB will be a good lynch and he will turn up mafia. And re-reading, my drunkness said he was mafia too *crosses fingers* (I have no idea how accurate my drunk intuition is, but this is a chance to see if one of my mafia guesses was correct).

I was about to vote CDB too, but then I realized there's still time for him to do the very least and post some content that could be valuable in his death.

I will wait to see if CDB has any last thoughts.

If you are town CDB

, please atleast post your thoughts, suspects, accusations, etc, before deadline. That way atleast we have a view from a verified town's opinion out of your death.

[Blackberry]

I may have limited access these next few days, or

I may be V/LA till Monday Night.

xoxo

[Blackberry]

Two things: I am back home finally (been in DC looking at apartments since Sunday). I've had limited time to get online and had to prioritize what I wanted to handle, this not being too high priority as it's the start of the day so I knew I'd have plenty of time to catch up and nothing drastic would happen right away.

I have to do some things, but expect a post tonight.

xoxo

Blackberry

[Blackberry]

End of Yesterday:

I really don't like this wagon. I'm usually always for a Lynch the Lurker philosophy, but in this instance the posts CDB has made ring town for me.

This strikes me as ZONEACE trying to look more townie by claiming he thinks CDB is town (in reality, mafia know who ARE the town, so when someone is about to flip, they know what side to appear to be on to make themselves look less like scum) and I do not understand what knowledge ZONEACE used to come to this conclusion.

----------------------------

lynching the lurker CDB is making me draw a blank right now. I'd like to hear from Cuet in particular about his thoughts for day two.

This strikes me as

odd

. Drawing a blank? Really? Tazaro - if you are drawing a blank - did you consider reading through the whole day one? I do not get why it would draw a blank, the main intention of lynching CDB was because he wasn't as active. I don't think anyone was 100% positive "OH YES HE IS DEF. SCUM" and him coming up town is super shocking (although disapointing).

2. BB had a potential town slip by reading Cuet ISO 36 as a scum buss. Scum-BB could have been acting and anticipating town cred for his bad read. Or scum-BB could have been trying to get me quick lynched on Day 1 and keep the fail lurker, CDB, around for Day 2 or later. IMO, I think BB was being sincere when he accused me of bussing.

This does not strike me as something scum would state. At the very least, whether Cuet is scum or town, he is being very logical and analyzing things to a great extent.

What do you know. My two/ three scum reads suddenly OGMUSing me.
... etc., etc.
The others (Zone, Scott) should do well to speak up.

Vote:Tazaro

((Just for reference, I didn't read all of these in order I am posting [i edited the order to reflect when they were posted, I actually started on page 14 at the posts just below your post, then I went back to the start of Day 2] - but I just realized

all three of those people have struck me as possible scum

. This gives you small, but significant, town points in my opinion, only because if you suspect the same people I suspect, you must be thinking simularly, whereas mafia aren't really thinking like town are...))

There is more to it. He avoids taking any responsibility by not random voting, even though he says random voting is necessary. When questioned about it, he states he didn't want to vote first, which is

bullshit

. If random voting is necessary, then why would he then not random vote? His defense for his other actions are pretty bad too, and the generabl vibe from his posts is that he is more concerned about staying alive than actually catching scum.

Why the

hell

would you think cuet got the nightkill immunity? And why would that make you value his input more over others?

I do not know why, but I don't like your attitude (using cuss words in order to reflect you disagree with something, asking aggressive questions in order to show your point of view). I wouldn't say it strikes me as scum, but acting like that doesn't help me get a "I am scotmany, I want to help the town win" it just reflects a "I am a badass, get out of the way, I'm here to get mad at people" attitude that I do not approve of.

I do agree with your last question though ("I think cuet got immunity" is kind of an odd thing to say...). I tried to vote for myself (not allowed) and then I ended up half-throwing my vote away for someone I didn't think people would vote/voting for someone I thought was town after skimming through Day 1 (and to be completely honest, I don't think anyone struck me as 100% town, although recent posts have led me to believe both Cuet and tumescene are town).

The post from cuet was because I thought he was the one who got the nightkill immunity; i'm interested in his input

.

I'm interested in knowing why you thought cuet got the nightkill immunity.

@mothrax, nopointinactingup:

I think you're both town, and your argument is making the scum's jobs easier for them. I've already explained why I had a strong town read on moth (his wording seemed genuine and without premeditation... "if by some weird chance he flips scum").

If you iso drmy (the predecessor of nopointactingup), you should be able to get a townvibe from him. Specifically, see his wording (for eg.,"I see this as a tactic in which he is trying to make himself look useful and smart thus gaining the towns trust, but I see right threw it"), and also read his long and detailed case against mothrax, which seems sincere. drmy in general seems like a big sincerity overspill.
=================

Vote: Simenon

I'd like to hear from Tazaro before I try building a case on Simenon, but as for now,

Simenon is the one I really want to get lynched.

I think he's the likeliest to be mafia, though I am clueless about his potential partner.

This struck me as a (strong) townie post. Strong as in I had a strong read as it as a town.

----

I am reading scotmany's posts on mothrax and thinking they are silly (maybe because I can see where mothrax is coming from and understand where he is coming from and think the attack on him because of that is silly). I don't like how scotmany is attacking a small point and trying to make a big deal out of it. I, too, did not have an alternative at the time for RVS.

AND THEN ZONEACE comes in and agrees with scotmany, only giving him more scum points in my book.

VOTE: ZONEACE

----

Just a note on Iron Man (and I believe I mentioned this in a post before): I am fairly certain he was inactive, as he was in a MISH MASH game of mine and disappeared around the same time.

----

The way people are attacking mothrax seems to me like scum are going for an easy lynch. I think for the most part I don't want to vote mothrax because some of the attacks against him seem silly to me. I wouldn't be horribly surprised if he turns up scum, but I really think he'll turn up town (mostly because I think ZONEACE is scum and he is voting mothrax). To be straight-forward: I am not leaning towards mothrax as either way (I think me thinking he is town is more hope because then I am even more certain that ZONEACE is scum). I feel the need to explain all my thoughts only because I do fear the possibility he *does* flip scum and then I would be instantly lynched next without question for not voting him and because of the silly POST #2 incident.

mothrax, I do however agree with a part of this

Looking back, mothrax is playing all defense and not even trying to scumhunt anymore.

I think it would be benficial for you to post your thoughts and suspcions if you have them. In the event you are lynched and turn up town, atleast we have a town's perspective. And also because how you think and accuse will assist me in determining whether you are actually town or scum. Like I said, I don't really know at this point, I do know though that some of the points against you (atleast scottmany's argument) is baseless.

----

I *WANT* to go back and read ZONEACE from DAY 1 and see if anything else strikes me as scummy so I can see what's there. However, that will have to wait till later, as I am tired and it is late and I have things to do tomorrow.

[Blackberry]

I do not know why, but I don't like your attitude (using cuss words in order to reflect you disagree with something, asking aggressive questions in order to show your point of view). I wouldn't say it strikes me as scum, but acting like that doesn't help me get a "I am scotmany, I want to help the town win" it just reflects a "I am a badass, get out of the way, I'm here to get mad at people" attitude that I do not approve of.

Get over yourself. And don't insult me. Me calling something bullshit and using hell doesn't not make me a "badass" or equate to being mad at people.

Why you call me out on this but not the number of other people (sim, I know korts did as well) who have cursed does not sit well with me.

A) Don't insult you when you are insulting other people? Mmk.
B) I have talked about Sim's attitude I believe. Both of them, though, have had times when they express their views in logical ways. Using cuss words to make an argument suggests you aren't really trying to convince someone of something logically. However, neither of them overuse their "ANGER" as much as you do. Cuss words are for the expression of anger and excitement. You're overuse of cuss words strikes me as over-aggressive and unnecessary.
C) I don't want to talk about it anymore, because this conversation is unnecessary. But watch your manners. It'll get you further in the game of Mafia if you approach things from a more calm perspective.

So you really think the Moth wagon is scum trying to push the easy lynch?

So then you're saying you've caught me, Taz and Scot as the scum team?

The absolute lack of logic and sense in your post makes it impossible to take seriously at all.

Something in this screams that ZONEACE is mafia to me. Either as a tactic because he is freaked out, or as a tactic because he is mafia, but not with both or either of those two.

I looked at the suspicions of other people on you, mothrax. You are rightfully suspicious.

This post is a null tell for me. I have seen scummies and townies vote to lynch players based off other people's arguments before.

Here is an example of Cuet seeming town in my opinion. Scum do not say that posts are null tells; they are willing to comment at least a little negatively on things that other people have pointed out as potentially suspicious in their eyes.

This is not even something I see as a town tell... >_<. There is at least one, if not more, better example(s).

Are you saying you're switching from whom you think is

scummy

to whom you think is merely

anti-town

?

There's no difference. Being anti-town is scummy. But that's not what I was saying. I was saying, that me changing my vote from mothrax wasn't because i didn't think he was scummy anymore, instead, because you have presented yourself as a threat to the town (and are infinitely more irritating).

Nice attempt to twist what I said though. Nice scum-move.

Once again, this sounds like scum. It's an over-confident statement to make considering ZONEACE just started expressing his suspcion of Tazaro.

I mean, make your stomach curl? Mr. dramatic.

I kind of agree with this.

Consider this Taz: your case on me sucks. My case on you does not. The difference between the two of us is when I play, I play. I make cases, and I find scum. I suggest you do the same now. If you want me lynched, then come up with a case other than "Other's pointed you out as scummy so you must be."
Incase you were wondering, I am just getting warmed up.

This feels like you got a sudden boost of confidence and almost seems out of character from what I've seen so far. But the over-confidence does strike a townish tell.

------

I like my vote on ZONEACE.

------

Looking at Tazaro's other games. He has posted short posts and back-to-back posts and non-topic related posts before as town. And in the one mafia game I did find, he tended to write a LOT of stuff (then again, it was one of his early newbie games, so it may just have been a correlation with being new and excited about Mafia). He is on my radar, but I don't see a reason to kill him at this time when I'm very confident ZONEACE is mafia.

[Blackberry]

because instead of responding to any of my points, you defend mothrax by saying that I have a bad tone (which I don't), and that I'm not trying to help the town because I used bullshit and hell.

You use "BULLSHIT" constantly, in an aggressive manner.

Also:

This part of your post changed my mind. Not only do you fence sit and refuse to take a stand on mothrax, but you are overly concerned with what people think about you if mothrax flips scum. You are so concerned that people will think you are mothrax's partner, that you have to go out of your way to say you haven't made a decision on mothrax. Not only is it ludicrous to think that you would be instantly lynched, it also screams paranoid scum.

I refuse to take a stand on mothrax? I didn't have a stand on mothrax at the time either way because he hadn't done anything to make me lean completely one way or the other.

I am overly concerned when people have been claiming me and mothrax are scum together several times? I don't think that makes me overly concerned.

Also, why does it make me paranoid scum? Can I not be a paranoid town? You've read my other posts. I like to overexplain things.

[Blackberry]

because instead of responding to any of my points, you defend mothrax by saying that I have a bad tone (which I don't), and that I'm not trying to help the town because I used bullshit and hell.

You use "BULLSHIT" constantly, in an aggressive manner.

Me calling a case, or something someone says, bullshit automatically discredits my opinion? Yes, I looked back, and I used bullshit five times before you bought it up. But everytime I explained why, in a logical manner. How does that equate to me not wanting to help the town? How does me using bullshit discredit everything else that I said?

I didn't say it discredits your opinion. I didn't say you don't want to help the town.

I said your aggressive attitude is bad for the town. Being aggressive makes people angry with you and two players getting upset at one another and using aggressive language results in a feud that makes the two think eachother are mafia.

I don't recall many people claiming you and mothrax to be scum together. I never did. Please, feel free to point it out where people did. But why would you be paranoid as town? Scum are much more concerned with getting lynched than town.

I am "fencesitting", because I didn't have a read on him either way. It makes me scum because I'm not sure of someone?

Scum are more concerned with getting lynched than town? I disagree with that. If you're town and you're lynched, you've failed to not only catch mafia, but convince the town of your true identity - thus you are a total failure at that game. If you're scum and you're lynched, it's part of the game, the good guys did what they were supposed to do, and you don't feel so bad.

[Blackberry]

Also - since Tazaro is scum, your idea of me being Paranoid Scum is void because that means there's only one scum left. Your idea was based on me being "paranoid scum" because I'd be lynched next after mothrax if he came up scum. Am I correct?

[Blackberry]

I understand that point, but still: It makes me scum because I'm not sure of someone?

And for the record, I now think mothrax is town because of A) his post where he had a sudden change in character and confidence & B) his (successful) attack on Tazaro.

Final vote count Day 2

(10 players alive = 6 to lynch before deadline)

(5) Tazaro – nopointinactingup, Simenon, mothrax, ZONEACE, Cuethlachtli, scotmany12
(2) ZONEACE – Blackberry, Tazaro
(1) mothrax – Thief
(1) Simenon – tumescence

Not voting: ---

Deadline Day 2 is September 3

Death scene a few posts down this page.

[Blackberry]

IRON MAN'S INTERACTIONS

Cuethlachtli
tumescence
ZONEACE (eljcko) ~ Iron Man's first vote
Thief ~ Iron Man talk to
Blackberry
nopointinactingup (drmyshottyizsik ) (Ectomancer) ~ IM talked to
Simenon ~ IM talk to Simoneon
scotmany12 ~ Iron Man FOS

---

The only people Iron Man did not attack/address conflict with: tumescene, Cuet, myself

...

TAZARO'S INTERACTIONS

Cuethlachtli ~ Interacts with Cuet, although asking for Cuet to post and saying he is good on content and Cuet's questioning of why him seems... odd
tumescence ~ Slight comment on
ZONEACE (eljcko) ~ Talks to
Thief
Blackberry ~ Tazaro talks to/comments on pointlessly
nopointinactingup (drmyshottyizsik ) (Ectomancer) ~ Tazaro talked to
Simenon
scotmany12

....

I was hoping to find someone who Tazaro/Iron Man didn't really talk to/avoided. But it appears one of them has atleast talked to their scum partner. I would also have to look at who didn't really address Tazaro.

Just for reference: Tazaro asking me if I was going to vote him because I was at the forum made me think he was town worried I was scum going to lynch him. But when he said I had "good points" and voted with me, that did draw slight red flags (the way he agreed with me, and the fact that in all my games so far on mafiascum, it appears that people don't agree with my points/see what I see the same way I do, so someone saying I had good points felt abnormal to me).

The way scotmany12 voted for Tazaro strikes me as a bus almost. I am less suspect of Sim because he was someone who wanted Tazaro's lynch EARLY. And Zoneace's comment about "So you caught me, him, and him are scum together"? still strikes me as scum. I'm now going to read back (scotmany and Zoneace and maybe others) how they interacted with Iron/Tazaro early on.

[Blackberry]

Cuethlachtli ~ Very interesting interactions... Tazaro asks Cuet his opinions, Cuet plays it off and says do your own hunting (avoiding buddying?)... ALSO Cuet's vote on Tazaro is different than his other accusations. When Cuet attacked nopoint, he made large arguments, when he votes Tazaro, he makes it short and simple, and it's different than his other votes and accusations
tumescence ~ minimim interactions overall, BUT, his questions to Tazaro are intersting and seem sincere - leaning town
ZONEACE (eljcko) ~ ZONEACE lynching Tazaro strikes me as odd... his reasons are that he is useless, and his attack against Tazaro comes out of no where... he builds his case on Tazaro as not being helpful, YET, Zoneace shows instances of being over-confident that Tazaro is scum... this does not seem sincere - leaning scum
Thief ~ leaning null... does vote Iron Man early, but doesn't keep it there long, Iron Man does comment on Thief, but doesn't follow up
nopointinactingup (drmyshottyizsik ) (Ectomancer) ~ attack Iron Man, very town vibes - leaning town
Simenon ~ attacks Iron Man early - leaning town
scotmany12 ~ Used "bullshit" against Tazaro/Iron Man in a sincere way - leaning town

---

With all that, I am leaning towards Zoneace, or Cuet as the scum partner (although Tazaro commenting that Cuet got the NK immunity would be very odd, unless, he was trying to suggest Cuet is innocent via that way, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me unless they got to talk at night and Cuet told Tazaro he thought he'd get immunity - or Tazaro took the idea from someone else's post and exxagerated it to make it look like Cuet got immunity).

[Blackberry]

So you really think the Moth wagon is scum trying to push the easy lynch?

So then you're saying you've caught me, Taz and Scot as the scum team

?

This, ZONEACE.

[Blackberry]

I know WHAT comment your talking about. but it still makes no sense how that makes me scum.

That quote doesn't strike me as something a town would say. It sounds like something a mafia would say in order to A) make the other players in the quote who mafia would know to be town to make think I am scum or to B) if you and your mafia partners were in there - to say it out loud to make it seem less likely to others. I just don't see a point in a town person saying something along those lines.

also, I'M NOT SCUM and you using me lynching scum as your reasoning, is stupid.

My reason isn't because you voted him, it's because of how you voted him and your reasonings and your over-confidence.

ALTHOUGH: Reading Tazaro's comments to ZONEACE about Zoneace voting him. I'm not sure what to think. This looks like an attempt to spread suspicion on ZONEACE from Tazaro.

[Blackberry]

I don't understand your post at all Simeonon. - Your reference/meaning of the word "innocent" or your implication.

BUT, reading back and seeing that ZONEACE was probably the person that turned things around and got it onto Tazaro [vs. mothrax] (they both had three votes on them at the time I believe). ZONEACE's switch could have been bussing, but it wouldn't really be a smart time to bus I don't think when it's still up in the air as to who might get lynched (I was focusing a lot on interactions between players just a minute ago).

I keep second-guessing myself.

[Blackberry]

Also - I am slightly surprised neither of you two have voted me right away. After yesterday, I felt I was the sure target as next to go since I outright defended (I don't like saying I defended scum, as Thief said, but reading back I know that, yes, I did - however, I was doing my research and trying to make a smart move and sticking to who I thought was scum).

[Blackberry]

Nothing I said refers to WIFOM. I said the reasons mafia would say it. I can't think of any reasons a town would use that phrase.

[Blackberry]

I got a prod - but I am drunker than before. I intend to post tomorrow when I am soberer. As I know in any game I posted drunk nobody took it as a great sign and I still have no idea what to make of my posting when I'm drunk because I can barely concentrate. So I'll wait till tomorrow. Sorry guys. Just responding from my prod. Although I do think this "evil genius" stuff is silly. No one is an evil genius. (WIFOM is BS - no one is an evil genious - Simeonios isn't mafia).

[Blackberry]

Ugh, that sucked. I just wrote something and accidentally pressed a button that sent me back a page and now I have to retype everything.

[Blackberry]

Voting in twilight is scummy? Wow I'll need that one explained to me a few more times.

I thought it was pretty obvious I was voting as a form of content,

but I guess scum will latch on to anything these days

.

This strikes me as a scummish post. Your method of defending yourself is by calling those who attack you scum for their reasoning. Yet you aren't even voting for that person. Thus, you don't genuinely think that person is scum, you're just saying that to defend yourself.

Just remember to use those handy VC analysis I bothered to type up. ZOENACE is still scum (based on my wagon as well).

This strikes me as town. HOWEVER, I think my ideas of how town and mafia act when they're about to get lynched is completely off. Last correct lynch a mafia acted how I thought town would. And in another game, a town acted how I thought mafia. So either my "how people post when they're about to get lynched" is very off, or it's very specific to an individual's personality and I should just ignore it.

------

Also, I think I am probably one of the few people that still thinks there's only two mafia? People haven't really speculated on there being three mafia until today (AFTER a mafia member got lynched). If there was one mafia left, he or she would want people to think there are three left, so that people are looking for a pair of players that seem like they could be mafia together. Just throwing that out there.

I think the remaining scum is one of: Cuet, Zoneace, Thief. Thief, however, is at the bottom of my list. And although I wouldn't mind seeing him lynched, I feel stronger that one of the other two is scum.

------

ZONEACE: Triple posting is something I do as town. However, his repetitive asserstion of "but I'm not mafia" is something I've seen a mafia member do.

Also, you make a comment that a vote on me looks like bussing on Thief's part. Would you percieve that Tazaro's vote on you could be seen as bussing?

------

So rewriting this post, I've changed my mind for a third time. Fun fact: I almost put a hammar on Tazaro last time because I was lazy and didn't want to read everything (I usually get on right before I go to bed, and I felt like I could finally get to sleep once I finished this one last thing), however, after I had typed up my post I felt freedom and didn't feel the stress to hurry it up and go to bed so I actually read through things and changed my mind about voting Tazaro.

Once again, tonight, I was about to vote Thief. Then I felt relieved again and decided to read through stuff. Then I remembered I did this last time (almost cast a hammar, and didn't, but then that person was mafia). So I then changed my mind again tonight and was about to cast a vote for Thief. Then I pressed something and went back a page. And having to rewrite a lot of this I changed my mind again...

LOL.

And I was just about to cast my vote for someone else. But I keep thinking of things that counter it. I think Zoneace could be scum, but him asking for a hammar on Thief sounds like town. Although I know Zoneace's reason for voting Thief because he thinks he is distancing from me, I know is incorrect, thought this doesn't mean Zoneace could be right or wrong about Thief still being mafia. And I keep coming back to Cuet.

------

After reading more, I think I've changed my mind way too many times. So many thoughts running through my head: scot was quick to hammar (bus?) Tazaro, yet hasn't hammared Thief, or maybe he hasn't been on in the past two days. nopoint wanting to lyncht Thief looks off to me. After reading Thief some more, he does indeed look like a "defeatist". Although last game I lynched someone that looked like this they turned up town (I think I wrote this at the beginning of this, or I did in my original and didn't rewrite it).

I'm going to see how Thief has acted in the past when he was scum and about to be lynched. Brb? I feel so confused this game. Maybe I am having a mental breakdown on mafiascum that reflects my real life. <3

[Blackberry]

VOTE: Cuet

I've finally found something that will make me satisfied with my vote. The only other time Cuet has used the Rolling-Eye face icon was when he was scum.

(The rolling-eye thing always makes me think scum anyways, considering when I play in person, my one friend who is usually really good, after we played awhile, I noticed he always rolled his eyes when he was accused

when he was mafia

...)

----

Also: Thief I've looked up. All his past games he was town, but in two he made a simular comment to his "I didn't play well" in other games where he admits he doesn't read 100% or play his best. He also seems to have the same confidence and attitude in this game and in those (though I feel he is more confident in the other games).

[Blackberry]

I encourage everyone else to vote Cuet, or atleast examine him for yourself. Once again, look back at his bus of Tazaro. His post in his vote was COMPLETELY different than ANYTHING else he's done all game. Why?

Also, his method of defending himself (his posts yesterday) looks almost childish. For the most part of the game he has been calm and collective and organized (/professionalish), why break that down when you're being accused?

[Blackberry]

3

Cuethlachtli ~ Very interesting interactions... Tazaro asks Cuet his opinions, Cuet plays it off and says do your own hunting (avoiding buddying?)...

4

ALSO Cuet's vote on Tazaro is different than his other accusations. When Cuet attacked nopoint, he made large arguments, when he votes Tazaro, he makes it short and simple, and it's different than his other votes and accusations

5

With all that, I am leaning towards Zoneace, or Cuet as the scum partner (although Tazaro commenting that Cuet got the NK immunity would be very odd, unless, he was trying to suggest Cuet is innocent via that way, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me unless they got to talk at night and Cuet told Tazaro he thought he'd get immunity - or Tazaro took the idea from someone else's post and exxagerated it to make it look like Cuet got immunity).

3.

You are reaching here. What would you have done different?

4.

My other arguments were larger because I was addressing more content. Do you have a problem with the actual content presented in my case against Taz?

5.

Maybe Taz deduced this after I suggested that people vote for who they think is scummy and no one voted for me.

(Answering your questions)

3: I, personally, would have given my reads and would have been happy that someone was following me. Although I would also be interested in how they respond. If they just completely 100% agreed with me, I'd be a little wary. If they took it into account as info, but then put in their own input, I would be excited that someone valued me opinion, and them putting their own opinion would have seemed to me that they weren't just latching on to someone. The way you responded and the way he asked looked to me like scum interaction and you being irritated with it.

4: I didn't say I had a problem with your content, you deflecting the question by asking something else strikes me as you admitting, yes, your accusation and reasoning was different than your other posts.

That said, I think we are in a 2:10 setup.

If this is true, and you genuinely believe that Thief or Zoneace are your top reads, then why in the WORLD would you unvote and vote yourself? You aren't making any logical sense. The only reason I could see you doing that is to make a big leap because you are fearful down the line that you will get lynched, so you might as well make a big, dramatic move now to confuse people and hopefully get someone on your side.

It, however, doesn't make any logical sense for you to be unvoting one of your top two suspects when you say you think there's only 1 mafia left.

Also, this dramatic voting of yourself seems to me that you are way overreating to only

two

people suspecting you. Or maybe you noticed the eye-rolling thing is correct and you're over-worried about that?

That said, the odds are pretty much stacked against me if we RL wrong. I refuse to be a liability to the town going into potential 5 way LYLO.

You think people are RLing? Aren't you voting for one of your top two suspects? How is that RLing? You just said you think there's likely only 2:10, which means only 1 mafia remaining. A lot of your speculation of "being a liability" contradicts the possibility that A) Thief is scum in your mind, which you claim to think and B) Assumes that you are confident the game won't be over once Thief is lynched, yet you claim to think Thief is scum.

POINTS & CASE:

* You are being way overdramatic by voting yourself, when just two people suspect you. This strikes me as over-paranoid scum. And considering there's likely only one scum left, he/she would have to do something to make sure they make it to the end.

* You are contradicting yourself by not sticking with your vote on Thief, while at the same time claiming you think there's only two mafia. If Thief is one of your top suspects, and you think there are only two mafia, and Thief is 1 vote away from a lynch, why would you change your vote? This makes no logical sense.

* Your play strikes me as strictly trying to make a big show to confuse people and call out people now to either be against you or with you because you're afraid you'll be next after Thief. And if people take your side now, you'll use it against them in the future. That is my theory.

[Blackberry]

And this, ladies and gentleman, is a scum slip

I find it unlikely that the a majority of the town and the scum would pick the same person at night.

How is it a scumslip? Because you're assuming that Cuet implied "a majority of ... the scum", implying 3 mafia? Have you considered that Cuet might simply have meant, "I find it unlikely that a majority of the town, and the scum would pick the same person at night"? You shouldn't assume Cuet meant a majority OF the scum.

I don't understand this as being a scumslip. I do think Cuet logicslipped. If he is a townperson that genuiney thought Thief was the last mafia, why unvote him? The only explanation: Cuet is mafia and is making a gambit.

I know you think my townreads are based on emotion, but what do you think about this part of my post?

Just my personal thought: I think tune's using of reading off of "emotion" (not really emotion, feeling is intuitiveish/empathy, emotion is another word, but anyways)- I find it makes me think tune is even more town.

[Blackberry]

We simply don't have enough evidence to assume that Cuet's rolling eye icon is associated with his being scum. Remember, loads of factors come in to play, like

whether there was an opportunity to use the rolling-eye icon

, whether Cuet was feeling emotionally rattled, etc. I know many people who use smileys in unpredictable manners, even as town.

This got me thinking because I specifically remembered Cuet getting killed NIGHT ONE in two or three games (aka, if he wasn't accused of being scum, he wouldn't have the ability to eyeroll). I went back. One game he got to endgame but it was apparently up to him to decide who got lynched, so no one was accusing him. One game before he was killed at Night one, he WAS put at L-1 and didn't do the eyerolling thing (townie in this game).

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 50&t=12563 ~That is his game as scum, and he eyerolls at the people accusing him.

The eye-rolling thing was just a small nudge to make me more confident. Thief and Zoneace had done things that made me second-guess myself and seemed like small town tells. Cuet hadn't done anything that made me think a small-town tell (until I just read something right now... about him claiming he thinks I town-slipped, doesn't seem like a scum thing to say).

Also, I remember my drunk post, and saying Cuet and Tazaro were mafia and saying check next to each of them. Not great evidence, but once again Cuet overreacts to an accusation.

At this point, Cuet's reaction of self-voting makes no logical sense to me. This action sticks out to me more than anything else now and I am confident in my vote.

[Blackberry]

Is nopoint crawling up anyone else's scumdar as of lately?

Although nopoint did vote for Iron Man... He also said "Iron Man is not scum buddies with Mothrax", which means, in nopoint's mind, if he was scum, he'd think mothrax is the most likely to be seen as town and would want to kill him.

That said, I think we are in a 2:10 setup. Some argue that the Popularity aspect gives the town a slight advantage. I disagree. I find it unlikely that the a majority of the town and

the scum

would pick the same person at night. But given that all mods are different, there is a chance that Joh could be a bastard mod and we are, in fact, in a 3:9 setup.

1> He mentions that the scum has the ability to nominate Night Kill Immune though nowhere do I see that in the Role PM.
2> He seems to think that it takes "the majority" ( more than half ) to successfully nominate a person. Whereas if he has read the role PM, he would have been sure the nominated is at "most" votes. An actual case of 2 people with most votes is even elaborated in the Role PM. So why does he still think it takes the "majority" to have someone Night Killed Immune?
The evidence are clear. Either Thief or Zone is probably Cuet's partner in crime if we are in a 3 scum Set-Up.

He is seeing a "scumslip" that no one else is seeing. This just makes me think he was trying to look for something that wasn't there and back-up his own case.

Let's lynch Thief. He's not even in the game anymore I think. At least I can extract info from Cuet in the future.

Vote:Thief

This is a terrible reason to be voting someone. Worst-case scenario, request a replacement if you think he isn't here.

Nice catch!

This sounds simular to Tazaro telling me "you bring up good points." ...

------

nopoint's general inconsistency:
"I think Cuet is scum, but let's lynch Thief and me and Cuet can talk again tomorrow..."
"Ok, now Cuet is a defeatest, let's go back over there..."
"Ok, I'll switch back to Thief since no one is doing anything..."

Your switching, and your reasons/excuses for voting the person you switch to don't seem real to me.

[Blackberry]

After considering my drunk reads in another game, I like my vote still. And Cuet voting himself still makes no sense.

[Blackberry]

My advice on who to look at after I die:

#1: Cuet
#2: ZONEACE

If all else fails, nopoint.

Good luck town! ((I failed to hammer both scum even though I was tempted to, thus, I am not the greatest player this game and am acting like I'm already dead, lol. That doesn't mean don't take my suspects into consideration, it just means I second-guess myself when I have the opportunity and the responsibility of making a death-deciding choise))

Vote: Cuet

((I'd be willing to change to Zoneace too))

[Blackberry]

Zoneace: If you are EXTREMELY confident I am scum, and already have three votes on me, why would you care that I am telling people to look at you when I die unless you think/KNOW I'll turn up town?

[Blackberry]

Simenon, meet me @ Blackfin and bring it punk.

...

lol

[Blackberry]

I don't feel a need to post the same thing I've already stated before. I've posted my reasons for why I think Cuet is scum. I actually no longer think Zoneace is scum because of

how

he attacks me in his recent posts.

Then again, I changed my mind on Thief and Tazaro when I had the chance to hammar. So who knows.

Zoneace, rethink your logic. If Thief's partner just got lynched- why would he immeidately distance himself from his other scum? If you reread Thief's post, it's clearly an easy scum attack against a townie.

Looking back, Sim has a pretty good track record. So him voting me atleast shows he is fallible. Then again, he has voted Cuet. So there is some hope he can set things right again.

Also, for saving someone last night, I did not send in a choice (I forgot).

[Blackberry]

I'm not voting anyone else today but BB.

Once again; another slip. Saying "today" suggests you know there will be a tomorrow.

[Blackberry]

Ok.

I was town.

Zoneace is possible scum, Cuet is possible scum.

Good luck!