Open 260 - Tit For Tat - Game Over

[lewarcher82]

/confirm

hello everyone

[lewarcher82]

vote: mallowgeno

because I like voting the first voter first!

[lewarcher82]

"ZOMG Consigliere didn't confirm...KILL KILL KILL"

Unvote; Vote: Consigliere

[lewarcher82]

unvote, vote lewarcher

for excessive use of smilies. and yes, this is serious.

You are so right, smilies are a blatant scumtell. I have read somewhere chimps are smart, should't have underestimated you.

[lewarcher82]

Don makes a good point, and lewarcher's reaction in interesting.

Saporovirus, why two rvs votes?

Why do you address this question only at saporovirus? don also did (though he explained it) as did mallow and lewarcher. And speaking of which, why did these two people make two RVS votes?

cuz I was joking, you genius. And I wanna go back to mallowgeno. Normally, I would be afraid to look scummy for switching back, but since my vote on consigliere was evidently a joke, I do not mind.

Unvote; vote: mallowgeno

and yes, after what happened it is not random anymore. He jumped on me, and I was voting him before the Simliesgate, so I think he knew I may have switched back and he is trying to prevent me from doing so.

[lewarcher82]

naaaa, don't care much about the pressure, the smilies stuff is just a tipical move to end the rvs, which is very much pro-town. I have seen worse than this, in some other games. At a given point you just need to start provoking one player using a "non-random" argument, no matter how silly. Smilies are just this LoL...
but mallowgeno jumped on it, so from my pov it is totally right to keep voting him.

[lewarcher82]

what kind of randomness was I supposed to underline in my vote on consigliere? I even mocked his post quoting it word for word...

@sapo: you are correct, dj's vote is not right. It is too silly. I was over-generous in my previous post. But I like keeping my vote on mallow better. DJ just gives me the "I'm so smart I see scumtells that other don't heh heh heh" vibe.

[lewarcher82]

ebwop:@gonzoooo

[lewarcher82]

@ implosion: on the other hand, consigliere's not lurking...

In terms of scumtells, active lurk > normal lurk. Normal lurks can be indicative of real-life distractions. Active lurks are generally indicative that someone is trying actively to fit in with the town by posting, but is unable to (or doesn't want to) contribute anything that will help in the hunt.

QFT... total lurkers are not scummy to me (unless other circumstances concur), but active lurkers are.

I don't get the whole "Smilegate"-thing. Is there a problem with usage of smilies in the RVS? *Confused*

I used 4 in a row. namely, I have written " ".
It may be argued that smilies are noise, a filler in which real information drowns... on the other hand, I wonder: what is noisier: 4 smilies in a row in a single post, or a 2 day long discussion based on nothing?

speaking of lurkers, I am not moving my vote until mallow posts some content.

[lewarcher82]

The only reason I voted lewarcher was to humor Don.

unvote

I hate the rvs.

huh, I honestly didn't see that coming...

[lewarcher82]

@Consigliere: you just write "unofficial vote count" and no one should have any problems with that.

what I do not like about your post:
1) I don't like players who say "I am new". It sounds scummy to me;
2) I don't like the speculations about blending in. For a starter, I am bothered by your speculation on what "any role" would do. This is not the good time to discuss roles. So please don't.

@mallowgeno: I did not see that coming, because, even though I am aware that there was no real big case built on the smilies-stuff, I did not read any evidence of humor in your vote. Nor did the others, as far as I see. I would have preferred a post with you insisting on my alleged attempt at overstressing randomness. The fact that you retract this way definitely bothers me.

so my vote stays where it is, for now.

[lewarcher82]

@mallowgeno: I did not see that coming, because, even though I am aware that there was no real big case built on the smilies-stuff, I did not read any evidence of humor in your vote. Nor did the others, as far as I see. I would have preferred a post with you insisting on my alleged attempt at overstressing randomness. The fact that you retract this way definitely bothers me.
so my vote stays where it is, for now.

Whoops on last post.

OMG!!! DID YOU KNOW THAT THERE ARE AT LEAST TWO MEANINGS OF THE WORD HUMOR?!? WHOAH! ENGLISH LESSON TIME!

Humor can be used as a noun:
-lewarcher has no sense of humor

BUT WAIT!!! HUMOR CAN ALSO BE USED AS A VERB :O
-I voted lewarcher to humor DJ

Wow! Did you notice that that version of the word humor has nothing to do with being funny!?! In this sentence it means to indulge in someone else. Do you need a definition on the word indulge? If you do, let me know.

First of all sorry, I actually did not know that.

Second: English is not my first language (and do not tell me that it was not evident!!!), actually it is one of the six I speak. Thank you for mocking me, anyway. I learned something today. I hope you did as well. Some manners, for instance.

[lewarcher82]

naaaa, don't care much about the pressure,

the smilies stuff is just a tipical move to end the rvs, which is very much pro-town

. I have seen worse than this, in some other games. At a given point you just need to start provoking one player using a "non-random" argument, no matter how silly. Smilies are just this LoL...
but mallowgeno jumped on it, so from my pov it is totally right to keep voting him.

I haven't seen smilies being used to end rvs, but I don't like how you're saying that since you used smilies, you're pro-town. This doesn't make you scum, but I don't like the way you phrased it.

omg, my English must be definitely worse than I thought (and than I still think, cuz this post seems pretty clear to me). I meant that

using the argument of the smilies to vote me

is a pro-town attempt of ending rvs, not that smilies are an attempt at ending rvs. I am glad that at least saporo got what I meant... do you understand now?

@mallow: no prob, let us proceed. You say you think consigliere is town. May I ask more details about this statement?

[lewarcher82]

Great...I'm an idiot.

andrew's not in the game...Guess my opening vote is worthless...but I told the truth and yes I had reasoning for the (now inconsequential) vote...

I just checked back to see if I'm f'ing nuts on the open game list...I'm not...I saw him opt into this one...He was just too late, apparently....Guess I'm the one I should be saying "Shows how much you pay attention" to...

His opt-in, post #826, to prove I'm not a total loon:

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... &start=825

I did google Hunter S. Thompson. So take the truth for what it is...or don't...

I feel pressure as both town and mafia in this game if votes are in my direction.

I've got nothing as far as a read yet.

I feel this was legitimate. Everyone makes errors once in a while. I think this show's Consig's townieness.

I completely disagree. In fact, Consigliere only posted noise and did little more than apologise in all his posts. He states he is new, he states he does not know how to handle nvs, and so on... the mistake discussed here is just a little mistake, not at all scummy, but it does not show he is town, and the rest of his activity is disturbing me.

In fact, I will put him at L-3 by

unvoting; vote: Consigliere

.

[lewarcher82]

Why didn't you talk about Consig? What do you think of me declaring him town and admonishing your terribad vote on him?

You're saying HE'S JUST A KID!!! LET HIM GO!!! I'm saying I'll unvote him when I see some scumhunting from him, kinda like your vote on don . If he's town, he'll calm down and start contributing. I haven't seen signs of that yet.

So yah, you didn't shame me into getting off his wagon, if that was your intent.

No, I'm saying he's the homeless guy with no shoes on outside the local Wendy's who talks only to himself. Simply put I'm not sure you could pick an easier, lamer target to admonish and then vote and frankly a sucker like that is a magnet for scum votes. Really, I had such high hopes for you and you're just disappointing me.

is this really your first game? I was looking for some meta of yours and only found the 11 posts you posted here... you speak like someone with a larger experience tho...
as I already said, there are some things consig wrote that are scummy to me, and his lack of content is irritating.
Btw: there are no masons and there is no neighbourhood according to the list of roles of this open game, so I am more than a little surprised that in the absolute lack of any pro-town activity by consig, you feel so much committed to the cause of his innocence.
I hope you two are not scumbuddies, cause if you are and you are so obvious at page 5, this game would be kinda spoiled.

more votes on Consig, please.

[lewarcher82]

Ok, Gonzooo: this is getting really irritating.

1)

A BW to L-2 on Day 1 is not poor play.

In fact it is a standard procedure to investigate the reactions of the players (not just the voted one).
2)

chill the f**k out.

I am sick of players who react as if we were about to lynch someone on lylo, which we aren't.
3)

That a BW on scum this early would not see this much agreement is false.

In fact, it is extremely rare that the first BW of day one ends with an actual lynch.
4) I

never used the argument of Consigliere voting a non-existing player to support my vote. If you want to criticise, please read the posts.

5) That this is not your first game is not "relevant", but it does not help because concealing previous games prevents us to know your meta. And since everybody reacts as if we just washed our faces with hot chili pepper sauce, I will already excplicitely state that this is not at all scummy, it just limits my skills at reading you.

That said, the way werewolf555 joined the bw is actually disturbing, and his statement makes no sense at all.
And you make a good point on powerrox.
But the BW won't have completed its task before consigliere reacts.

[lewarcher82]

1) A BW to L-2 on Day 1 is not poor play. In fact it is a standard procedure to investigate the reactions of the players (not just the voted one).
2) chill the f**k out. I am sick of players who react as if we were about to lynch someone on lylo, which we aren't.
3) That a BW on scum this early would not see this much agreement is false. In fact, it is extremely rare that the first BW of day one ends with an actual lynch.
4) I never used the argument of Consigliere voting a non-existing player to support my vote. If you want to criticise, please read the posts.
5) That this is not your first game is not "relevant", but it does not help because concealing previous games prevents us to know your meta. And since everybody reacts as if we just washed our faces with hot chili pepper sauce, I will already excplicitely state that this is not at all scummy, it just limits my skills at reading you.

1) I agree to a degree. I think you should be trying to form good bandwagons and not terribad ones in hopes of catching the scum at the tail end of it. Conversely, I've been pointing out who I think is scummy on the Consig wagon.
2) Ah no, if I think you're acting scummy, you're getting the full attack. I play to win and every lynch counts.
3)Your'e not making sense. My point is that scum are not going to immediately bus their buddies this early in the game and I appear to be the lone voice of reason in the wilderness of stupidity that is the Consig wagon. This is not town driven. That's what I'm saying.
4)I was not only speaking to you as you're not the only one on the Consig wagon.
5) That's fine. I don't think meta would be relevant anyhow.

1) The answers you gave me are acceptable only in part. I have motivated my vote on Consigliere, which you seem to keep ignoring, It was no strong motivation, but it was the best BW I saw until I read this post.
2) An excess of aggressivity in early game is a relevant element that can even look scummy. No one was lynching Consig, but it looked like you wanted us to unvote really bad. Deal with it.
3) I said my opinion, you said yours. If I were scum, I would join the first BW regardless from the alignment of the voted player, and then I would cautiously get off.
4) Your post 92 was directed to me. Deal with it, again, and do not lie so early in the game. Save it for later.
5) It always is.

What's the difference?

You're actually scum.

This is what I call content LoL

He's also made lengthly comments that are overtly irrelevant - his "sugar hangover" comment, the Hunter S. Thompson comment.

This is hyperbole. "lengthy comments" probably can't be translated into one liners about HST. He is active lurking, but my problem is that people are trying to trump it up cause he's an easy target that probably isn't going to fight back. I don't like defending other players, but in this case you guys are grasping so badly at whatever and Consig is apparently too lazy to point out these issues that I had to intervene.

Long comments with no content qualify as filler. Filler can be scummy, but in some cases is just a naive mistake. Still, I do not like the way you deny the relevance of this point.

I don't like defending other players

No, you only like defending Consigliere (kidding, sorry, my bad, could'nt resist)

Are you saying that you are 100% sure that Consig is town? If so, how? You say it's because nothing separates him from others... well first of all, there are things. And second of all, even if so, so what? How would that make him definite town?

My "bumbling town" read on him, as I would call it, has been explained pretty thoroughly actually. The fact that his wagon exploded so quickly and so early in the game over weak arguments makes it unlikely to be on scum. Am I 100% certain? Of course not. But I am confident enough in that read to try and stop a bad wagon from being followed through. My goal is to lynch scum, not VIs. I'm starting to see that this player list has trouble distinguishing between the two. This is unfortunate because it's going to take you guys days to wake up and lynch a scum if this is the best you can play.

No, your read was not thoroughly explained. You just answered "he is just a confused newby" to all the questions.

saporo: has also been active in the discussion. Has also done nothing scummy that I see. Also probtown.

I was thinking town too, but now I'm starting to get skeptical. I felt like saporo was more in your face in the RVS stage and I liked that. Now she's being kind of wimpy and not pushing much for lynches. My town read keeps plummeting on her.

saporo is being active; besides, the only players who "pushed for lynches", as you weridly define the voting on day 1, are the ones on a BW that you criticize.

i may move to the gonzo wagon.

Why so timid? It's not like I'm in any danger of being lynched at this point.

"timid" is a poor choice for a descriptor. i clearly stated "why" i wasn't voting. wanting to reread a thread so as to offer content with my vote is good form. would you prefer i vote with no explanation as to the nature of my vote?

this is perfectly reasonable; I have the feeling that gonzoooo is attacking a lot of players at the same time with rather weak arguments.

Unvote; Vote: Gonzoooo

V/LA for 24 hours

[lewarcher82]

Back. As for Gonzooo contributing, yes, it is true. But scummy is worse than lurker to me.

[lewarcher82]

@DJ: very extensive and exhaustive post. Thank you for that. A question: is my 106 not worth any comments? Since you are suggesting that there were some signs of a connection between sapo and me, then this last post of mine, in which I vote gonzooo, should be interesting to you. And I am curious of knowing your readings.

Now I go to sleep cuz I am in a state of serious sleep-deprivation, but I anticipate that I will discuss several details of DJ 115 tomorrow.

[lewarcher82]

@mallow: it is seven to lynch, the closest he got was L-3. It was never even close to a lynch, despite the apparent terror the bw gave to the poor gonzooo.

@dj:
1) about CONSIG: consigliere is not a noob. At the 4th game, you are not a noob. Justifying all you do by saying you are a noob is scummy to me. Not very scummy, not so scummy to justify a lynch, but scummy enough to get my vote before I find something better.
2) about GONZO: I am not adding anything to what I already wrote in 106, and which you find irrelevant. Weird, I accudes gonzooo of some contraddictions and lies there, and u have nothign to say?
3) about ZHERO: yes, zhero is in fact acting in a jumpy and acritical way which is scummy. Also, his contribution to the game is minimal (which is bad), andif he is town he is playing a poor performance. On the other hand, my reading of Gonzo in 106 is more alarming, to me, than zhero's attitude, to the point that I would say that one of them is extremely likely scum. My bet is on Gonzooo.
4) about SMASH: good job. I had almost missed that post. Which is opportunistic and scummy. Since smash jumps on consig, he may very well be a scum partner to either one of Gonzo/Zhero.

[lewarcher82]

@Zhero: Gonzooo's and Zhero's strategies appear to be conflicting to me. Therefore I do not think that both are mafia.

Also, @saporo: I I am not bothered by the fact that you "was getting a bit of scumfeeling from" me. However, I am bothered by the vague and imprecise argumentations you are using in your posts and by the way you are always on the more fashionable bw. You were on Consig. Now you jumped on werewolf.

So the best way I have to irritate you is this: I would like to know the flaws in my logic you are referring to, one by one please, even if you kindly add that they depend on the fact that I am not a native speaker. I do not like generic commentaries, which imo should always be avoided. Better refer to single cases and problems, one at a time, instead of using unprecise plurals.
Also: misquotes: which ones? "Humor"? ok, this can hardly be called even a little scummy. What else?

I need a list to convince me that you have some content, that you are not just sheeping.

[lewarcher82]

mmh, googled it, but didn't find anything: what does "to be out to lunch on sbd" mean?

[lewarcher82]

dude, what is the matter with you? I said if I were scum I would jump on the first bw and then, if the bw were on my partner, I would jump off. Why would I jump off a bw on a town if I were scum??? And how likely is it that consig is scum and I am his partner?

This is, dear Gonzooo, another example of how you distort things in order to place your FoS on random people based on random and invalid arguments.

Your logic is very weak, almost outrageously weak, and I am surprised that no one else notices it.

As for post 106:
I have pointed out that you deny the relevance of several aspects of consig's behaviour, and you don't even bother explaining why.
I have pointed out how you lied about not referring to me when you mentioned the fact that some people based their consig-vote on his voting a non-existing player.
I have pointed out your contraddiction: you accused people of being scummy because they did not push for lynches (saporo) and at the same time you suspect every single player who joined the only bw that was created so far.

These are the reasons why I am voting you.
Please, defend.

[lewarcher82]

Because it feels like everything in this game has its origins from the smilegate thing that I don't understand at all.

lol, no. I think this guy is town though. He's too damn clueless to be faking scum at this point. That or his team is in desperate trouble.

I had some doubts, but I now agree with Gonzooo's reading of Powerrox.

Your logic is very weak, almost outrageously weak, and I am surprised that no one else notices it.

Yes, I'm sure it's that my logic is so weak and you are a super genius that no one else sees how ragingly scummy I am. Or or or, you're wrong and everyone else sees that. Deep thoughts indeed.

Oh, dear...

I have pointed out that you deny the relevance of several aspects of consig's behaviour, and you don't even bother explaining why.

Because I know the difference between VIs and scum. You fall in the former category and need to play more mafia before you can tell the difference.

Do not worry, I have a longer experience than you think, and this is exactly how I scumhunt on day 1. I try to see if very productive players actually pay attention to what they write, in order to distinguish pro-town attitude from scummy attempts at seeming pro-town. Also, I am enough experienced not to be hurt by players who use the subtle and smart tecnique of personal attacks.

I have pointed out how you lied about not referring to me when you mentioned the fact that some people based their consig-vote on his voting a non-existing player.

I didn't say I didn't mention you, as far as I recall. I believe I said I didn't mention ONLY you. There is a difference.

No, this answer is not satisfactory. You were referring to me, quoting a post of mine and said that I was voting consig for his vote on a non-existing player. Then I showed you that I had

already

explicitely said that it was NOT one of my reasons, and you said that the post was not directed to me. Now you say that you meant not only to me...
but still, I had very clearly said that I did not consider that vote scummy. So: were you or were you not convinced that the my reason for fosing consig was his vote on a non-existing player?
The only non-scummy explanation for the superficiality you show in regard of this facts is that you think that I am an idiot.

I have pointed out your contraddiction: you accused people of being scummy because they did not push for lynches (saporo) and at the same time you suspect every single player who joined the only bw that was created so far.

This does not make sense. 1) I can't push every single lynch cause I only have one vote. 2) I don't suspect every single player on the Consig wagon. I haven't said I suspected you at all have I? Your point is that I'm playing aggressively. Guess what, that's not a scumtell.

Still, if u regard as poor performers both voters and non-voters, it is hard to understand your definition of sucm-hunt. Is it perhaps "doing exactly what Gonzooo wants"? I always look for contraddictions. You are always aggressive, I always point out contraddictions. I will tolerate your style, you better tolerate mine.

[lewarcher82]

Zhero, a question, out of curiosity and absolutely irrelevant. Do you usually unvote if the player you are voting asks for replacement? I mean, as far as I see, if you consider someone scummy, you must necessarily assume that his behaviour was conditioned by his role. Which will remain the same after replacing.
I just ask because I normally do not unvote in such a case.

[lewarcher82]

ok gonzooo, I am starting to get a little irritated. It is a fact that yo quickly dismissed several attempts at scum-hunting by several players; I am the one who called you scummy, but other players contested your way of acting as if you were sure about a lot of things.
If you made a little intellectual effort, which you are not doing, you would realise that some things you made are in fact superficial, and may look scummy.

I am choosing an example. When you quoted a post of mine to criticise the fact that some players were voting consig because of his vote on an empty player, I had already explained that I was not voting him for that very reason. Still your post was an answer to me. I pointed it out, you denied it, and then you changed version and said that you were speaking *also* to me. This change of version is something that would be regarded as scummy, because superficial reasons for defending a player are scummy.

This is just an example. You are extremely vain and arrogant, you assume to know better than anyone and I highly doubt yo do. As a matter of fact, this, and the fact that you omit the "I think"'s from your posts, make it very umpleasant to deal with you.

As for the "contraddictions", every little unconsistency in the level of attention of a given player is interesting, you would be surprised by how well it actually works. Naturally it is not a "contraddiction" in a formal way of speaking (you did not say "P and ~P"). It highly depends on the fact that I consider empty all the arguments you presented to defend consigliere, therefore I still resist yor definition of "bad voter".

Replacements: it is not good that so many players left or lurk. I agree that there is not much we can do before the repl are found... I can go on arguing with gonzoooo, but it would probably mean repeating the same conversation over and over again.

[lewarcher82]

welcome to the game Admiral

[lewarcher82]

very superficial reasons. I was working just like everyone else to end the RVS. My vote on consig was explained, and keeping it until the player posted content is absolutely justified.

also: mallow was not damned in my eyes no matter what he said LoL
all the votes I did were explained. I also always explained what I was waiting for before unvoting. I always unvoted once I got it.

(the mallow vote is central in your case, still the fact that I ignored the meaning of humor was explained by me in a post that you are neglecting. Either scummy or stupid, but I don't know you yet, but even gonzooo knows better than using the vote on mallow against me)

finally: it is ridicuolous to say that did not explain my vote on gonzooo. I did it in post 106, quite extensively.

I have the feeling I may be biting some scum legs here, given this reaction. Also: do not worry about me not liking you. I never like people. This is an online game, not a birthday party.

[lewarcher82]

I have the feeling I may be biting some scum legs here, given this reaction.

Do you ever respond to suspicions against you without mudslinging?

I am not sure what mudslinging means. According to an online dictionary, it means: "the practice of making unscrupulous, malicious attacks against an opponent, as in a political campaign". I do not see how the sentence you quote qualifies as such. I would rather say that several sentences gonzooo threw at me, discussing my unexperience and lack of skills, would quailfy as such.

[lewarcher82]

When did I question your votes mallow? I only questioned your vote on me, which was first made without giving any reasons, and I was not the only one to note that. As you gave reasons, I unvoted you and moved on. So I am not sure what are the "votes" you are referring to. Can you please explain?

[lewarcher82]

thad: if you think they are partners, can we start with werewolf?

I am more sure of lewarcher

+townpoints for Admiral for not accepting dj's suggestion.

[lewarcher82]

huh, guys: I did not know the meaning of humor, but I started studying English when I was 4 years old, so you should not think that my whole game is conditioned by a linguistic imparement... it normally isn't, and this is the first time that this problem is so frequently referred to in a thread. So Purple, if I was a native speaker would I look scummy to you? If so, please vote me, and explain why.

[lewarcher82]

please, Admiral, define scumslip and name one from this game.

[lewarcher82]

I assume that this is how you define my post in which I call dj's smilies-vote silly. Let me make it more clear.

1) DJ's vote because of smilies is a legitimate attempt at ending the rvs. I have seen even worse. One just gives a pretext and states to be serious.
2) The fact that the attempt is legitimate does not make the pretext (smilies) less silly. It succeeded in ending the rvs. But it did not provide a solid case.
3) The sillier the case, the more suspect was the behavior of mallow, who jumped on it.

This does not sound so difficult to understand.

As I thought that humor meant "mock", I found mallow's post about humoring dj a really scummy backtrack. Once I was explained that I misunderstood it, I started looking at the other players. I was struck by gonzooo's overconfidence, and I started interacting with him. He was not only overconfident, but he also kept quickly dismissing legitimate questions about consig's behavior. He was trying to take the lead of town, but his attitude (only discussing the things he wanted to, and ignoring all the rest) was not pro-town to me.

sidenote: since I thought that humor meant mock, admiral's argument against me:

@mallowgeno: I did not see that coming, because, even though I am aware that there was no real big case built on the smilies-stuff, I did not read any evidence of humor in your vote. Nor did the others, as far as I see. I would have preferred a post with you insisting on my alleged attempt at overstressing randomness. The fact that you retract this way definitely bothers me.

so my vote stays where it is, for now.

Oh that's why. Another weak reason to keep his vote where it is.
But didn't you say you didn't like his vote initially because you believed he jumped on you supporting a silly argument?

makes no sense at all. It was absolutely legitimate to find mallow's post about humoring scummy. You are killing the context here. If you are doing it on purpose, then you are scummy.

[lewarcher82]

Hmm, I smell a bus.

What does it smell like? Old people and kids?
Seriously though if he is bussing then werewolf would also be scum.

QFT

[lewarcher82]

Gonzooo is right. Mallow's vote is legitimate. Early claim is scummy.

But why did you unvote werewolf, Gonzooo? Does Zhero's post make werewolf less likely to be scum?

[lewarcher82]

Gonzooo is right. Mallow's vote is legitimate. Early claim is scummy.

But why did you unvote werewolf, Gonzooo? Does Zhero's post make werewolf less likely to be scum?

Because it's a scummy vote by Zhero regardless of werewolf's alignment. When I see an action that absolutely has no town motivation whatsoever, it's very very likely to be coming from scum.

Think of it this way:

1) werewolf-town is being wagoned - Zhero votes mallow for being a "bussing" partner because he wants to keep calling werewolf scum, but he's trying to stay off of the mislynch to avoid wagon analysis tomorrow.

2) werewolf-scum - Zhero votes mallow for being a "bussing" partner because he doesn't want to join his buddy werewolf's wagon, but still needs to pay lip-service to it in case he actually is lynched today. Then tomorrow he can say 'oh yeah, I found werewolf scummy!' even though he wasn't on the lynch wagon.

Now, ask yourself why Zhero-town would vote for a lesser wagon even though he apparently thinks werewolf is scum? Does not compute.

You have a very good point here. Even Zhero 217 is no good explanation. If he did not want to quickhammer, all he had to do was not voting. The reasons for his vote on mallow are terrible. A claim at L-3 looks very bad.

vote:Zhero

[lewarcher82]

As far as early claiming goes, I disagree that it's a good scumtell. While scum is more invested in 'looking town' than town is, scum is quite likely also aware of the norm that claiming early is scummy, and thus likely to avoid it.

This is a recursive argument, that can loop forever. I can say: "yes, but then, since everyone knows how scummy it is, then it is unlikely that a town-player would take the risk of making such a scummy claim". And so on, for eternity.

Pointless observation. Must be dismissed.

As far as mallow goes, there is not a lot of content from him, and what there is is largely prestated by others first. He manages to avoid making a case or placing his vote anywhere for over two weeks, and when he does it's to jump on to an active wagon that most players have expressed interest in. It's a relatively safe vote with little behind it, and while I suspect it to be a last-minute bus, even if werewolf is town it's not indicitive of good play.

That mallow was a lurker is something everyone noticed. He did not jump on a wagon without explaining himself. He explained that he was voting a scummy early claimer. And the reasons you provide to demonstrate that early claiming is not scummy is just a logic loop (see above).

I hope I answered your questions above. I'd prefer a mallow lynch, but a werewolf lynch could be more informative in the end.

How would it be more informative? The only player that reacted to the werewolf wagon is you. Do you mean that lynching a townie werewolf would make you look better? Or is there something else? In other words:

zhero could just be smelling himself bussing mallow.

is an interesting post, after all.

[lewarcher82]

claiming role cop is a terrible move anyway. there are no roles able to protect you. If you are legit, you die tonight, and the mafia deupty will be able to start looking for the last town pr, who is a vig.

is it clear to everyone how this setup works?

I never played it, but I studied the rules. Did anyone pay Tit for Tat in the past?

Claiming was a terrible move. You should have tried to defend posting content til the very last minute of this day.

besides, I want to know why smash thinks Zhero is JK and not a simple nilla - always assuming he is scum.

regarding the lynch: IF THERE IS A REAL COP; HE MUST NOT CC. I suggest we lynch werewolf and hope zhero is not genuine. If zhero will not die, we will analyse his report tomorrow and decide what to do. If he dies, we will analyse the wagon.

unvote; vote: werewolf

who is now at L-2

[lewarcher82]

Any further comments on the cop claim will just be dangerous to town. I am surprised by saporo's vote, but I prefere not to keep discussing this stuff today. We must wait for d2 to discuss all this. If Zhero is genuine, there is no way we can save our cop, at this point.

[lewarcher82]

ah crap I forgot about this one.

implying you did not act at night? LoL


ok, seriously, I am waiting for a long post by mallow, too. Also:

tomorrow

I will be on

V/LA

. But I might post something later. This has to be an intensive scumhunting day.

[lewarcher82]

@mallow - you've said very little this game. I want your next post to be an extensive list of reads and your thoughts on the lynch/kill last night and who you would most like to see lynched immediately.

Agreed.

I'm on holiday, but will try to read and post by the weekend. Chesskid premature claim is antitown.

Agreed. However:

ah crap I forgot about this one.

implying you did not act at night? LoL

Why did you bring this up at all?

half joke, half serious. I always find it scummy when at daystart a player says "hey, I forgot about this thread"

[lewarcher82]

Explain 258 a bit more pls. The word "therefore" implies that your conclusion of handing out scumpoints to sk somehow stems from the idea that "big is useless." R u saying u think vig Shud claim?

Before anyone does something stupid: no,

vig must not claim

. He just must not shoot, for the moment. Vig is not useless. He is just useless in this phase of the game. At game end, on a mylo-situation (and being an open-game, we will know very well when it is mylo), if we mislynch he may save our ass by shooting right.

Also: I would like to assume that we all know no1 must claim. I tend to assume mafia-players are rational human beings (even though the behaviour of the role cop on day 1 kinda shakes my assumption). What I was writing about chess simply depends on the fact that I have seen scum players who pretended to have been V/LA all night... anyway, I was only half serious, so let us stop discussing this.

I want to share my reading of Thad, since I didn't write anything yet. I believe he is town. I liked the way he sticked to his vote on me when someone proposed to lynch werewolf first, and I liked the way he carefully read the post in which I explained my not-even-half-case on mallow. That said, I have no idea what his reading of me is, and at the moment I do not care. I want rather everyone to tell me what they think of Thad, since he is the only new-entry who actually posted some real content so far.

[lewarcher82]

OK, Zhero is a L-2. I'm a bit worried at how fast this has come up. Either it there is at least one scum bussing their partner Zhero, or scum jumped on the wagon of town. At first it didn't seem as bad to me, voting for the lesser wagon, given that werewolf was L-1. However, with the points brought up on the previous page, I'm very strongly believing it to be scum.

I would like you to explain this.

Yeah, kind of a "blargh im going to write every thought going through my head post."

So, first off, worry about the Zhero wagon. In my opinion, his wagon in the first place sprouted up way too quickly, so I was speculating that it could have been a wagon on town, which scum had jumped on quickly, or if Zhero was scum, one member of the scum team jumped on to gain town cred, knowing that Zhero scum would claim a power role and not be lynched. Now that it turns out he was town, I definitely believe that at least one scum jumped on that wagon quickly, and likely stayed on it, hoping to lynch the power role anyway.



From the sentence that begins "At first it..." was my ideas on Zhero himself. Originally, I had understood his reasoning for not voting werewolf and causing the lynch, but now that people had written out the case against him, I started to believe that he was scum.

Does this clarify things?

in part. Still, when Zhero was at L-2, it would mean that some town players were on the wagon as well. The reasons for voting Zhero were pretty good: he seemed to ignore the fact that an early claim is a scumtell. Therefore I want to know: did you find Zhero scummy? Or were you convinced that he was not scummy at all?

also, I still think that mallow is scummiest, but i have yet to do a reread for my other candidates for mafia. Will try to post later today, but im not sure i'll have time, might as well

v/la till sunday

for the holidays and such.

I fail to see mallow's scumminess. He voted werewolf for a reason that I find legitimate. He did vote me following dj, ok, but this is a very little scumtell, so I fail to see the reason of such a strong scumread. Please, explain.

[lewarcher82]

@purlpe: no, Smash was

NOT

right about the wagon on Zhero. I categorically reject this statement and I will keep rejecting it til endgame. There was perhaps 1 scum on the bw, but I do not think there were more than 1, and the reasons were genuine and the votes were only 4. Smash could be a smart townie who reached a correct conclusion following weak arguments or a scum player who had no idea that zhero was cop, but knew he was town and wanted to gain towncred by attacking the bw.

@purple(2): I ask for readings on the newcomes because they did not take part in the RVS, so they did not undergo the discussion that followed the RVS. There were discussions about me, gonzooo, zhero (may he rest in peace, or rot in hell for his claim), mallow, werewolf; something was said on implosion and saporo as well, but as a matter of fact we need to understand what you and thad are up to. Replacing as mafia at the end of day 1 can be a big advantage: early enough to dismiss the FoS that were cast on your predecessors, late enough to have a lot of running bw's to work on. Therefore it is vital for town to start working on you guys as well, as soon as possible. I will therefore proceed posting about you in my next post.

@chess: please, comment on the following cases:
Gonzoo's on Lew;
Lew's on Gonzoo;
Thad on Lew;
everyone's on Zhero;
any other case you find interesting.

@implosion: I do not think what you write about purple's behaviour against werewolf makes much sense. But again, such a behaviour would be typical for a scum-newbie. However, I highly doubt that purple is really a new-player.

@implosion(2): you mean a vig could act as a uncc'd and therefore cleared townie? I disagree, this would imply that he has to claim, and besides, since no smart vig would ever claim, we could not trust a claimed vig, cuz he could be scum pretending to be him.

@dj: I have some issues reading you. I see from your sig that you have played a lot, so I will try to read some meta from other games of yours.

@smash: I am indeed very much interested in your case on mallow, which, as I said, I fail to see. The more I think about it, the more I get convinced that a vote on your head could be good for your and our health, since, as far as I remember, you hardly ever had any.

vote: smash

[lewarcher82]

stop eating turkey and come back to the game, you yankees!

[lewarcher82]

You speak of a bw on mallow, I fail to see it. He was never close to get lynched. He got 2 votes, dj's and yours.

also: my reading of mallow is "frustrated Vi" atm. I am waiting for him to post. And I keep waiting for smash, too.

the rest of purple's analysis is correct, but the conclusions are not conclusive. In that situation, scum would have probably tried to divide themselves on the 2 different wagons. We should wonder if some votes can be interpreted as scum trying to eliminate patterns (for instance X, Y and Z are scum on BW1, so Z moves to BW2)... I am not optimist about the results, but it's all I can think of right now.

[lewarcher82]

You speak of a bw on mallow, I fail to see it. He was never close to get lynched. He got 2 votes, dj's and yours.

Point taken -- there's some pressure, but calling it a wagon was too strong.

Smash was on him for a while (he switched to wolf right after Don Jon added a third vote). Zhero accused and voted for mallow (pushing him up to three votes again), in the post that triggered the wagon on

him

. Implosion accuses mallow of scummy actions in 212, concurrent with Gonzoooo's vote on Zhero.

Thank you. I now had a closer look at smash's switch (#198). Interesting timing. Question is: are the reasons he gives for his vote on werewolf convincing?

[lewarcher82]

welcome to the game, vollkan, I missed your scumpoints.

post 85: it is my opinion that a scumnoob makes mistakes just like a townnoob, therefore it is no bad strategy to put votes on a scumnoob; moreover, consig is in his 4th game, I am in my 8th or 9th, he was not such a noob after all. I thought that consig was an unexperienced scum player and acted accordingly, until I decided that gonzooo looked scummier to me. Then other cases became more urgent, there was the crazy zhero claim and the werewolf lynch, and meanwhile purple has joined, and I started getting towntells from her. Therefore I may have been wrong about consig, and being wrong about consig means I should reconsider my case on gonzooo and possibly dismiss it, at least for the moment.

post 93: having a suspicion and expecting a reaction by the bw-target are no mutually exclusive strategies. They are mutually exclusive iff the player is about to get lynched, L-3 is not the case.

(why are you mentioning that other game? Do you want town to get paranoid about me?)

[lewarcher82]

Smash, you are voting a player who is waiting for replacement. Does it mean we will have to wait for mallow to be replaced before you do something more?

I am unable to understand implosion's case on purple. I would like an explanation with quotes from her posts.

Unlikely that don could be jumping on a town. If smash were lynched and flipped town (we have a ml, if vig isn't an idiot), then he will be in a very bad situation tomorrow.

Admiral #301 is correct.

@vollkan: I answered you. I wait for further comments, either in form of questions or in form of further scumtells you get from my later posts. By all means, complete rereading.

@everyone: too many replacements. Please stay.

[lewarcher82]

post 85: it is my opinion that a scumnoob makes mistakes just like a townnoob, therefore it is no bad strategy to put votes on a scumnoob; moreover, consig is in his 4th game, I am in my 8th or 9th, he was not such a noob after all. I thought that consig was an unexperienced scum player and acted accordingly, until I decided that gonzooo looked scummier to me. Then other cases became more urgent, there was the crazy zhero claim and the werewolf lynch, and meanwhile purple has joined, and I started getting towntells from her. Therefore I may have been wrong about consig, and being wrong about consig means I should reconsider my case on gonzooo and possibly dismiss it, at least for the moment.

This doesn't really address my point. You say "scumnoob makes mistakes just like a townoob", but that's exactly what I meant: both are liable to slip up, so putting one under serious pressure hardly makes sense.

Am I misunderstanding you?

In part. You seem to be unable (unwilling?) to start from the assumption that I was convinced that consig was scum. I attacked him because I thought he was scum and because I thought he was likely to slip and make it evident.

post 93: having a suspicion and expecting a reaction by the bw-target are no mutually exclusive strategies. They are mutually exclusive iff the player is about to get lynched, L-3 is not the case.

Yes, but this ignores two points:
1) As I said, the wagon on Consig was not simply a pressure wagon;
2) Pressure on a newbie easily leads to them crumbling and being lynched from a L-3 base point

My vote on consig was both a pressure and a fosing vote. The BW never got so far to make me worry about what it meant to other players on it. You keep starting from the assumption that I was voting a town. It may have been the case, but I was convinced that my target was scum.

Player	Score
don_johnson	55
Purple Orange	50
Gonzoooo	50
lewarcher82	70
mallowgeno	56
ThAdmiral	50
smashbro_of_the_SSS	73
implosion	55

Accordingly,

Vote:Smash

Weird. Most of your comments are dedicated to me being scummy, but then I am only the second scummiest in the table, and you vote with the block...

mallow looks more like a VI than scum, and yes, he looks like a very easy target. From what I remember reading about VIs (at least I think I read something) he looks more town than scum actually, because he was at least making legitimate attempts to scumhunt (ISO 9, 17, 20, 21). So that slot is probably town.

This is consistent with my impression as well.

I also need to reevaluate Gonzooo/lew at some point, and vollkan when he's posted more.

please do. I am also trying to evaluate you. The mutual results may be interesting. As for your case on purple, I tended to explain her behaviour as a consequence of the fact that she had just joined the game. As I said, she looks quite pro-town to me.

[lewarcher82]

more votes on smash. put him to L-1. get a claim.

move on

. it shall be done(come on voting block).

You mean no matter what he claims?

someone defined my arguments against gonzooo "semantics"...

[lewarcher82]

Ok Thad, I understand now.

[lewarcher82]

thrilling post, thanks don. This gets the game going!

well, I and vollkan are doing our best to entertain u guys... someone else should participate, tho

[lewarcher82]

@gonzooo: wow, you sure try to make me feel dumb. No big issue tho. My attack on chesskd was a standard action I always take when a player states he has been afk during night. If vollkan is honest, he will state that I did the very same thing about a2rudeboy during our last game together. I was a SK in that game, but it was my priority to find out if a2rude was scum, because my whole endgame strategy depended on eliminating all scum but 1 til last night.

@vollkan(1): you are totally misquoting me. The sentence you quote is not referred to all consig's posts, but only to a specific event, namely his vote on a non-existing player. As I already said several times, I always refused to consider that event anything more than a nulltelling mistake. His way of playing casual, his apparent active lurking, his way of posting filler, on the other hand, were mild scumtells, and they were the reasons why I voted him.

@vollkan(2): I did not say you think consig was town, I mean that you start from the mistaken assumption that I did not think he was scum (see the previous paragraph).

@vollkan(3): your scumpoints are a very ill-defined system that you can easily manipulate (and you did it in our last game, in which you were scum, for instance). Since you use them in all your games, I will not consider them a sign of impartiality.

Vote Count

smashbro_of_the_SSS (4) - lewarcher82, don_johnson, ThAdmiral, vollkan
mallowgeno (1) - smashbro_of_the_SSS
Purple Orange (1) - implosion
don_johnson (1) - Gonzoooo

Not Voting (2) - Purple Orange, mallowgeno

With 9 alive it is 5 to lynch. The deadline is set for the end of December 8th, PST.

[lewarcher82]

No. I didn't search. I realised that vollkan's vote put smash at L-1, so I went looking for some smash's meta.. I found only one game in which he was lynched as scum, but he was the last mafia alive on D7, so the situation was quite different... I do not understand what is going on here. I confess I am getting pretty paranoid about this game. I do not trust vollkan; I am liking gonzooo more (although I keep feeling mallow was basically a frustrated lurker, so a nulltell); I got towntells from Thad at the end of D1, but I must confess I feel unable to read him. I cannot allow a quick-lynch on smash, this is our last ml, and if the vig is an idiot we may have even bigger trouble (shooting sapo was not really a proof of big brains, imo).

We have one week more or less. We need to use it. I rid myself of the voting block.

unvote

I want comments/answers to my #325 by the players I mentioned in that very post.

[lewarcher82]

@don: oh come on, what scum would vote for a claim pr without even giving any reasons? It was not even a hammer! EVidently saporo did not believe the cop claim and she was not aware of the terrible loss a cop lynch represents in tit-for-tat.
A smart vig would have either nk'd or killed me, or gonzooo, or purple; in other words, someone who was object of intensive discussions during day 1. Saporo's death didn't give any information.

What the hell is Baltar doing here anyway? Am I drunk?

[lewarcher82]

@don: oh come on, what scum would vote for a claim pr without even giving any reasons?

i would. in a heartbeat. and i'd play it off like a dumb mistake too. lynching power roles is probably the best possible outcome for a scumteam on any day given the circumstances. its worth placing oneself in harms way. check my sig. i'd like to think that my scum record is because i know how to play as scum. but whatever. if you think it a good idea to shoot you, i hope the vig is paying attention...

Nonsense. This is Tit for Tat mafia, and it is evident there is no way to protect cop at night. Mafia could easily push the easiest wagon on werewolf without drawing suspects on themselves and then kill cop at night. Therefore pushing for a claimed-cop lynch was a lose-lose situation for a mafia player.

[lewarcher82]

I am studying the situation; currently I am studying vollkan and don; you and thad do not appear scummy to me; purple seems protown; implosion: NO IDEA! I need to try and find out patterns, but I cannot see them. This has become very easy for scum. 2 VT and a cop gone...

I said that I am confused and I really am. You took time to re-read: I now need time to think.

[lewarcher82]

Lew: its not nonsense at all. First off, his actions led u to believe he was town which is a good thing if he was scum. Second, a lynched rolecop empowers mafia deputy to begin investigating immediately. So let's see: town loses a power role. Scum player gains town cred(according to your reading skills), scum gains a power role, and scum also gets to use its nk to try and find other town power. You sir, are scum or a complete fool. According to volkan, you are no fool. So...

Your theory contemplates a non-realistic amount of wifom. And besides Gonzooo is right, this discussion is pointless. Saporo already died, saporo already flipped town.

I am re-reading some events. More tomorrow.

[lewarcher82]

don: this is the last ml before lylo. This is the starting point for all my considerations. Smash was at L-1; now he is at L-2. We have time. I want to use it.

let me make it clear. Open setups work differently from closed setups.

OPTION 1)
zhero claims.
saporo is scum.
she thinks: if I were town I would not vote him.
then she thinks: but town will think that a mafia would not be so stupid.
sapo votes. She is not hamering, so she is betting on:
1) town falling for that;
2) another town player to agree (on what argument? whar argument would she use to motivate her vote and push for a lynch?) and hammer;
3) vig not to shoot her.

OPTION 2)
zhero claims.
scum does not react: there is a wagon werewolf; they move (back) to it.
werewolf dies.
vig gets no clues from this situation.
scum kills cop.
no one can protect cop.

which is the best play for scum?
I have seen scum playing aggressively several times. But in this case it would not have been aggressive play, it would have been stupid play. You see how many coincidences should have occurred for such a plan to work? Convincing town, having another player hammer, don't getting vigged at night.

Important: I am not saying that sapo's behaviour CLEARED her. This would be stupid. I am saying that it was no good reason to consider her worth a vigshot. And it would be naive not to see the difference

now let me reread.

[lewarcher82]

@ lew: The main problem I have with your posts right now is that you have narrowed down for the scum who the vig is. Why would you do that?

Enough of this. Vig is not out. If you want to accuse me of rolefishing, I will answer. Otherwise, this stuff was discussed for long enough.

@vollkan: I categorically refuse to accept that backtracking is necessarily a scumtell. It is not. I change my mind a lot of times in every game. For instance, I have been FoSing gonzooo, and now I am not FoSing him anymore, as a consequence of my change of mind about consig/purple (cuz purple looks pro-town to me). Does this contribute making me scummy?

@vollkan(1): you are totally misquoting me. The sentence you quote is not referred to all consig's posts, but only to a specific event, namely his vote on a non-existing player. As I already said several times, I always refused to consider that event anything more than a nulltelling mistake. His way of playing casual, his apparent active lurking, his way of posting filler, on the other hand, were mild scumtells, and they were the reasons why I voted him.

I'm not suggesting you did treat it as anything other than a mistake. As I said, though, " It begs belief to think that you of all people wouldn't be able to realise that such a player is a bad place to apply 'pressure'" What was so scummy about the rest of his play that meant you could overcome that necessary caution?

The reasons why I though he was a scumnoob and not a townnoob are listed in the very passage you quote.

[lewarcher82]

Perhaps I am playing poorly, dunno... I am having some big shit happening irl, but I really did not expect my original statement in #328 to be harmful to town. The following development of the discussion, in my opinion, has no meaning at all. I wonder why thad addressed his criticism to me alone (#345). Anyway, I am not mentioning this stuff anymore, unless people ask me questions.

Moving to more interesting stuff:

lew - where are you thinking about moving your vote to now that you're off of Smash?

to DJ. Because of the 3 players who were tunneling smash (4 with me, before I jumped off, I guess), he is the only one who gave me no real towntells at all. ALso:he proposed a voting block formed by 4 players: if this had worked, it would have immediately put the block's target at L-1. I did not notice the numbers, I do now. I don't like it. Finally, smash has built a more or less convincing case against him, and it does not feel like he is just attacking the player who votes him. Perhaps it is a bus, but if it is, then DJ would be scum as well.

vote: DJ

since I know you a little, now, gonzooo, I expect you to ask me: who else? well, if he dies and flips scum, I will probably start looking at vollkan and implosion.

[lewarcher82]

wow. you can add.

Yes, I had to use a calculator but finally I made it.

When I realised it took 5 to lynch, I unvoted smash. And I realised the meaning of the block.

looking back at the block. lew already has a vote on me, and it's obvious that TheAdmiral and Gonzooo also thinks im scummy. Just as votes and ta-da! insta-wagon! just add votes! but on a more serious note, he gets away with a vote on me, saying "he's not sure quite why" and trying to persuade 3 more votes on me. he pretty much wants to say you guys do the work, I'll vote with you.

This part is the more-or-less-convincing case I was referring to.

Also, it was you who kept the discussion about vig going.

I am not "also accusing smash of bussing". I am considering options. You being scum is consistent with both scum-smash and town-smash. You are misquoting me. And you are not going to laugh.

[lewarcher82]

If I did not miss anything, this should be the

Unofficial Vote Count

mashbro_of_the_SSSS (3) - don_johnson, ThAdmiral, vollkan
Purple Orange (1) - implosion
don_johnson (3) - Gonzooo, smashbro_of_the_SSSS, lewarcher82

Not Voting (2) - Purple Orange, mallowgeno

I will read your last post tomorrow DJ.

[lewarcher82]

guys, the shit that was happening is still happening and getting serious. I apologise, but I have to go on

V/LA til Monday the 6th

... I realise that it means I will get back 2 days before deadline, but I have no choice.
I will try to have a look tonight, but I cannot guarantee.

mod: since we played for 4 days without mallow, couldn't you add some extra-time to the deadline?

[lewarcher82]

Quickly from my smartphone (last post til end of v/la on monday) and sorry fot the bad fotmatting. I have no time to read the thread but i did not realise that implo was voting dj.
I dont know if i woud leave the wagon if i were here, but in this situation dj is correct askin me to unvote him during my absence

unvote

[lewarcher82]

I am back. This morning I have quickly re-read the day2 (but I did not read all the long post by smash, yet, I'll catch up asap) from a different perspective, or at least I tried to. As a matter of fact, I tried to ignore the micro-content of every single post and to concentrate on the dynamics: who was voted and how did the other players react.
First of all, I think that a premise is necessary. We are playing in an almost-reverse situation. In fact, since a mislynch, a misvig and copdeath happened almost at the same time, town has now a last ml.
The chaotic situation we found ourselves in at the end of day 1 made it very easy for scum. Scum can do almost anything; no one can be fosed for voting cop, except perhaps saporo (as DJ pointed out), who is now dead, and no one can blamed for lynching werewolf, who was definitely scummy and made a pointless early VT claim. Therefore, scum didn't even need to push for a lynch. And this is the reason why the events of day 1 are little help to scumhunt.
Consider even my post at twilight, in which I asked the vig not to claim. Zhero commented that it was very pro-town, but I would have posted it even if I were scum. What did I have to lose? Cop had claimed, a vig had very few elements to decide whom to kill... scum had a big advantage, and they could very easily find a way to appear pro-town.

So day 2 started, and DJ proposed a voting block. I found it ok, the I realised that a 4-player block would have automatically put teh target to L-1. However, my decision to unvote smash was prbably excessive. In fact Smash remained at L-1 for quite a long time, and no one quicklynched him. The likelihood of ALL scum voting him is very low, and if I consider that I know I am not scum and Thad gave me some towntells, I would assume that it is very likely that at least 1 scum was not on his wagon. Think of it the other way round: would scum compactly vote for a town on day 2, in a situation in which spreading votes would probably appear much more pro-town? Probably not.
On the other hand, as smash presented his case on DJ, almost everyone - except me, and I don't know if I was right or wrong, yet - found it a bad case. If smash were town, it would have been a prefect time for a scum player to hammer him. Gonzooo could have done it; Purple could have done it. And - more interesting, given his lurking and his OMGUS vote on DJ (it looks like a OMGUS-vote to me) - implo could have done it. Yet no one did it. Why?
It is my opinion that one (good) explanation for this is that smash IS in fact scum. I have no idea if DJ is town or bussing scum. He seems to react with violence to everyone voting him, but given his record I would have to assume that, as scum, he would know better than this.
Therefore, I am reconsidering the option of a smash lynch; however, I need time to read the wall he wrote.

[lewarcher82]

This is a good point you make about mallow. I answer you.

I do not think it would have been scummy to hammer before the deadline.

I do think it would have been scummy to hammer before mallow got replaced.

Also: you say that you think that the competing situation is going to result in a lynch that will be very telling for town. Does it mean you are absolutely convinced that DJ and Smash could not be scumbuddies who are performing a mutual bus?

[lewarcher82]

yes, this is a reasonable consequence of the fact that, as I said, scum has now the upper edge. We can probably ignore the possibility that DJ and smash are mutually bussing, also because if that were the case, both lynches would be fine.

[lewarcher82]

I am now doing a re-read of implo's and thad's activity, to try see if I find anything interesting to answer gonzooo's and purple's last posts. However, regarding Thad, his playestyle struck me as protown on day 1. The he became less aggressive. I will post my impressions tomorrow. However, in order to complete my analysis, I will need to ask Thad a question:

what are your feelings about the voting block, and what were your feelings when it was first proposed?

@gonzooo: I will cast my vote as soon as I am done thinking. I understand you'd prefere to have votes to analyse, but I am not ready. It won't take long, I promise.

[lewarcher82]

I read some meta of don johnson. I discovered two things:

1) he uses voting blocks when he is town;

2) he is a fierce opposer of discussing roles when he is town.

The two data are in contrast. Point 1 would make me think: he is prolly town, or, at least, his voting block proposal must not be used against him. But Point 2 tells me: if he is a fierce opposer of discussing roles, why did he used a probably stupid statement by me in order start a discussion on vig?

mod: I know you are doing everything possible, but the absence of mallow is starting to become a big issue here... any news? cannot u just skip the thread and invite someone you know?

[lewarcher82]

what are your feelings about the voting block, and what were your feelings when it was first proposed?

I had never heard of the concept before but I actually liked it. I think it is a bit dangerous though and should only be implemented when the town reads are a bit stronger, as even one scum in the mix can potentially make it an anti-town force. I hadn't planned on complying with it in this game because I believe it has been hard to get good town reads on people.
If the question was more about how did I feel about dj when he suggested it I have to say it struck me as somewhat of a more-likely-town-play. I thought it was sure to cop some heat, which it did, and that is why I feel it would have been a less likely play for scum.

I agree with it. I did raise an eyebrow, but it was the second time I saw such a thing in my ms career, and after all I found it pro-town. However, the last time I saw someone propose a vb there was a difference - I cannot recall the game but I am pretty sure: in this case, the vb was a 4-player vb on a day in which lynch-treshold is 5. I did not notice it until later (prolly cause gonzooo did not accept the invitation, so we hit L-1 only later). I still think that putting people at L-1 today is dangerous, because this is out last ml.
However, as I just say, my exploration of dj's meta revealed that he used vb's in a game in which he was town (town cop, to be precise)...

now I go to bed, cuz my english is becoming almost unreadable...

[lewarcher82]

I looked only one game of yours, don. I do what I can with the time I have. I do not see how I possibly qualify as being obsessed by meta. Also: I am not blaming yourself more than me regarding the vig's discussion, but you cannot deny that you are at least as guilty as I am.

Smash: I am having the disturbing feeling that you are attacking don more than don is attacking you. Is it because gonzooo gave you the impression that one of you will be lynched? It is not a pro-town behaviour at all. You may be scum, and you have thought "hell, my only hope is pushing a dj lynch"... accordignly, you ignore everyone else, and the only other player you refer to as scummy seems to be mallow, a player that has been away for an eternity and will hopefully be replaced.

[lewarcher82]

I do think lew's observation about DJ having a pattern of opposition to discussing roles when town (links/proof??), contrasted with the whole vig conversation this game, is worth considering.

As I admitted, I had time to look at one game only. I can try to dig a little further, but of course I won't be able to read 28 games in which dj was town... One must also consider that the circumstances of the different games have a big influence on a player's policy about claiming/discussing roles. In an open game it is different than in a normal; if the player is or is not a pr also makes a difference... all in all, it is definitely an interesting point to investigate, but also a very difficult one.

(btw, the reason why I stopped is that in that game I found what I was looking for: dj used voting block in a game in which he was town. Naturally, this has no statistical relevance, but it made it clear to me that the idea of a voting block is not, or not necessarily, a scumtell, and this is what I was looking for).

[lewarcher82]

please show where i took part in "singling out the vig"

are you asking this for real? Are we going to start discussing this stuff again?

besides: too many walls: I will catch up, I still have to read everything that followed my last post.

[lewarcher82]

@mykonian: I was "actually improving" at end of page 4... then what? I just became town? I find the way you comment thing very insufficient. This is just a sample. You are voting PO. Still anything I did in the first 3 pages was attacking consig (=PO) and gonzooo, who defended consig (PO). Then what? What happens? Are my attacks scummy, or are they a way of bussing? You think I would bus someone right after RVS? Probably not, since you say I am town, but how? When? Why?
What about vollkan? I do not understand your vote. Then you immediately unvote, but this is far from being ok. You cannot just say: hey, I am reading page x so I am voting A; oh, wait, now after page x+1 I feel more like voting B. What reads can I get from this? null, null and null.

@gonzooo: regarding my question to chess, as I already say I always find it scummy when a player posts implying he just came back to game at the beginning of a day. I did it in other games, and vollkan can testify I used it as a way to scumhunt in last game we played together. get the conclusions you want to get, but my 254 had nothing to do with vigs, it regarded scum and chess's post being scummy to me.

@gonzooo&don: I am not answering the question on which vig-statement I find scummier, it would be ridiculous.

@dj:

Unlikely that don could be jumping on a town. If smash were lynched and flipped town (we have a ml, if vig isn't an idiot), then he will be in a very bad situation tomorrow.

bad english, yeah. I meant that in that phase of the game you were pushing on smash pretty hard, and I didn't think you would take such a risk if you were scum and he were town. "If smash dies and he is town, it will be hard for don to demonstrate he ain't scum tomorrow" - that is what I meant. However, I am not so sure about this anymore. The statemente can work the other way round as well, so it is pretty much invalid. I am now thinking it is very likely that one of you guys is scum.

In general: my strongest towntell remains PO.

further questions to mykonian:
1) what is the reason why you think Thad is town?
2) you seem to have a lot of reads of implo, which I lack... I find implo border-line-lurker all game long. Can you tell me please where you liked him and where you disliked him?
3) why is gonzooo scummy? I would not bet my balls he is town, but I don't see anything one could use to build a case on him. Tbh, if gonzooo is scum, he is playing a splendid game. Better than the game dj is playing if he is scum, for instance.

[lewarcher82]

Since the deadline gets closer, it is necessarily time for me to cast my vote. I honestly dislike the way myk entered the game; however, I wonder if a scum player would take the risk of jumping into a game and attack players in an apparently chaotic way, refusing to provide the rest of the players with motivations... on the other hand, whenever we wonder about "what scum would(n't) do", we enter the infinitely recursive world of wifom. It remains decisive to me, at the moment, that I did not find mallow particularly scummy when he was active. I had the feeling he was a frustrated lurker (as I already stated early in the game).

I reserve the right of collecting more reads from myk as the game goes on. In order to do this, I exclude voting him right now.

Gonzooo started the game with an extremely self-confident defense of consigliere: it took very long to convince me that consig was not scum. More precisely, it took PO replacing him. PO gave me towntells. If you need me to provide samples of this, I will. Whatever is the case, gonzooo and PO are strictly connected to each other by the consig-case on day 1. Having one of them lynched could provide information on the other, but since PO is a solid towntell of mine, I am not willing to take this risk.

Corollary(1): it was pointed out that gonzooo is a great player, who is able to play scum without appearing scummy. I am aware of this, but I only have my eyes to read this game. I never had the privilege of playing with Baltar. Scum got the upper edge since the beginning of day 2. If a great player is scum, god help us. But I cannot base my play on meta-related paranoia.

Corollary(2): the werewolfe vs mallow problem becomes now fashionable again, as vollkan gives 7 scumpoints to PO for his choice. I am a bit surprise. 7 points seem to make a big difference in vollkan's system, and PO never changed her version of the facts. Did vollkan really not notice the voting activity by PO?

Vollkan: it is also interesting how you suddenly give scumpoints to PO. Myk is the first who actually builds a real case on PO. And "sieht an, sieht an", you come back to game and give her scumpoints...
I re-read the catch-up posts by vollkan, PO/consig is never really considered. The only thing vollkan really writes about them is that consig was a convenient vote for a scum-lew. I think PO is now a convenient target for scumpoints.

smash: your post 483 is confusing as hell. You name 4 players who should be town. I totally disagree on vollkan. I do not have towntells from him. I am not sure about Thad. I agree on PO. I do not trust you. I do not like the way you vote a player who just replaced in. Your post looks like a chaotic attempt at generating confusion. Which may be done in case you get lynched before replacing out... in order to put the ones you name as townies in a terrible light tomorrow. Scummy, scummy, scummy.

We had a 1vs1 situation. We haven't it anymore. How come? It could have been good for town. If we lynch smash and smash flips town, I will have to ignore his chaotic 483 and look back at the game, and it wil lbe hard to convince me that DJ is not scum. And this also works the other way round...

All in all, I feel I like a smash lynch better. While I was on V/LA, Dj got at L-1 very quickly. This invalidates my analysis of the smash-BW: both BW's were very quick. The one on smash was justified, after all, by a proposal of a voting block, which is a practice Dj also uses as town.

implosion is scummy. But he did not post enough, so his lynch would provide us with less information than a smash one. And smash is scummy.

vote: smash

I apologise for my poor english. I am realy tired. Please let me know if anything is unclear.

[lewarcher82]

bah...

go town!

[lewarcher82]

LoL yeah, but he did not my comments on vig being wrong shooting saporo were meant to be a double-wifom... I hoped scum would think I was the vig pretending I wasn't... I felt REALLY stupid when someone who could be the real vig took the criticism rather personally and started to argue LoL

anyway: awesome play Gonzooo/VP!

[lewarcher82]

This setup could perhaps be modified for a larger number of players. A large open Tit for Tat with more PRs and more deputies could be interesting, imo... one could for instance add 2 or 3 VTs, 1 goon, 1 mafia doctor and 1 town nurse...

[lewarcher82]

mod: any chance we can read the mafia qt? I always love to see it, helps me improving my play

[lewarcher82]

You stealth-hydra'd? Or is Gonzoooo a known hydra I just didn't know about because I'm new?

I was inclined to side with the hydras-give-unfair-advantage side of the debate before this, but REALLY am inclined that way now, after this game. Dammit, I want a quicktopic and an extra set of eyes telling me I'm crazy or on the right track.

Well, it was kind of an unconscious decision. We decided we wanted to hydra and it just kind of didnt' come up after the game started, so we decided it wouldn't be a big deal.

As far as the hydras are overpowered argument, I think you'd need to play with more hydras. Some are and some aren't. Both DDD and I are relatively decent players on our own, so perhaps Gonzoooo was. On the other hand, it honestly was mostly me posting so most of what you were seeing was VPB except for close to the beginning and closer to the end. I'm happy to share our QT if DDD wants to do that as well.

One interesting thing of note was that DDD had the initial negative gut reaction to dj, but I was doing all of the posting at that time. So I was kind of working from DDD's meta even though I was slightly less confident than him!

@lew - mod said it was up to the scum team if they want to reveal it or not.

yeah, I missed that... apologies. If scum don't want, np.

I have nothing against hydras. I do not think they are overpowered per se. Moreover, this very hydra played very good, but I believe that single VP and single DDD would have played more or less at the same level as gonzooo...

all in all, I think that the best town-player in this game is DJ.

vollkan was prolly the best scum, but his smashbro vote was a big mistake, and so was his giving scumpoints to PO as soon as someone softly fosed him. I was surprised that no one openly agreed with me, but from the hydra-qt I see someone actually did