Mini 1121: Nexusville Mafia.

[DarthYoshi]

/confirm

[DarthYoshi]

Dishing out a couple of RQS questions--

What time zone are you in?

Do you prefer RQS or RVS? Why?

How much mafia experience do you have?

To answer my own questions--I'm on PST time (GMT -8), and I like having both RQS and RVS, since there are pro's to both and there is no reason not to do both. This is my second game at MafiaScum; I used to play Mafia some off-site (3-4 games, plus modded a game), but that was a few years ago.

And,

Vote: Mongoose.

Because nobody knows what the plural version of your name is.

[DarthYoshi]

Nameless--IIOA = Information Instead of Analysis. Simply offering observations and re-stating facts than actually giving substance and analysis. Often considered a scumtell.

And yeah--that post from WoMC did seem pretty defensive.

[DarthYoshi]

EBWOP: To answer Ninja's question, I do my best to post daily. On a day off from school and work, it may be more than once a day. I enjoy being active. I am also trying to cut down on how often I am posting walls of texts...we'll see how that goes!

WoMC: We missed the point? Please, enlighten us.

[DarthYoshi]

Nameless--what exactly is bothering you about Ninja's posts (I presume you're talking about the ones directed at WoMC and Neko)? Reading them, I'm at least seeing scumhunting happening...anal-rententive and/or obsessive-compulsive scumhunting, maybe a little (WARNING FOR THE SUPER SERIOUS POLICE: THAT WAS HUMOR, OMGBBQLOLZ). But when you don't have a lot to go on in just page 2, sometimes you have to zero in on the little things--I don't see anything wrong with that per se.

What I am curious about, though, is if instead of being "verbose" in agreeing with people, Ninja was putting that case on WoMC to avoid accusations of OMGUSing. I agree with his point on WoMC, but scum cross-voting or OMGUSing each other on D1 isn't uncommon.

Also--Hi, Silavor. Long time, no see. And by long time, I mean, like, a week. Glad to be playing with you again.

[DarthYoshi]

There is no need for you to be jumping in and defending another player at this point. Not liking this.

You can not like it as much as you want, but when you're pointing fingers in lieu of answering what was a fairly simple question that gets asked all the time ("What exactly bothers you about the guy's posts?"), you're the one who ends up looking scummy, not me.

[DarthYoshi]

I stated in #37 what I was generally keeping an eye on, and I don't think it warrants more attention yet - particularly when ICEninja hasn't even posted since. For the sake of comparison, your choice to defend him I can pinpoint as specifically scummy and your nonresponse ("You can not like it as much as you want") more so. (SSS: moderate)

You said that you had your eye on Ninja for being verbose. Cool. All I asked was what exactly about it is bothering you—as in, for instance, was there anything in particular that caught your attention? Or is it just that you are wary in general of people who write lengthy posts, or is it because it’s Ninja who is making lengthier posts? Asking for clarification and explanation doesn’t constitute defending—you just jumping in and shouting out that I’m defending Ninja doesn’t make it so. But being asked for clarification on your wariness of someone and declining to respond is generally pretty anti-town in nature.

On WoMC--I don't have a ton to add to everyone else's suspicions, except to say that contradictions so early in the game are just as apt to be jumped on by town who have little hard information to go on as they are by scum looking to frame someone, so its effectiveness as a trap seems dubious at best. So I'm not giving much credence to WoMC's defense so far.

[DarthYoshi]

Am quite suspicious of Mongoose after #64. I have a couple reasons why, on top of what people have already said:

And his explanation is that... he doesn't want to unvote, vote, unvote and vote in the same post. First of all, why not?

Not doing something because it might create waves or controversy can be a pretty reliable scumtell.

And, am I the only one who is seeing Mongoose trying to hedge his bets in the chance that the town mislynches? Mongoose calls the discussion on the contradictions "pointless," and then immediately goes, "on the other hand..." to reference q21's #60 in his (Mongoose's) FoS, which contained a reason for a WoMC vote because of...the contradiction. If Mongoose was trying to avoid coming off as wishy washy with the unvote, vote, unvote, vote thing, he's definitely coming across as wishy washy here instead.

[DarthYoshi]

On Nameless’s three points in #94:

The only one I feel requires any substantive explanation is #2 (as for #1, thank you and I agree, and for #3, well, yeah). To address #2, I wasn’t explaining away Ninja’s behavior; I made an observation that what I saw was something not uncommon—very early on D1, scumhunting can be done for odd or seemingly obsessive reasons. The distinction may be subtle, but it’s there.

General thoughts--

I still don’t like WoMC’s trap from a tactical standpoint (#63), but despite the town having beaten the matter to death, I realize I don’t have any other reasons at the moment to dislike it.

On Mongoose: I find Mongoose’s explanation of basically wanting to spare us the agony of confusion in deciphering who his vote is on to be weak at best when it would have been pretty easy for us to simply scroll down, see who the last person is next to a bold “VOTE,” and know who Mongoose is currently voting for. Not sure if I am reading into his pattern what ICE is in #82, but Mongoose’s voting pattern so far does remain suspicious.

That being said, I do agree with Mongoose in #98 that there was no need for Neil to claim yet. Neil, even if you’re not into the game, why claim when you did?

Finally, I don’t like seeing the entire scumscales being posted by Implosion and mb53. I didn’t take very seriously Implosion’s kickoff of the RVS and declaration of ending RVS on page 1, but coupled with his posting of an entire scumscale in #73 (bad, bad, bad for all the reasons noted by people earlier) this comes across as a transparent attempt to try to lead/get the ball rolling in order to gain town cred (and if it means flushing out potential PRs, then it really is a win-win). Implosion, even if you don’t think it is *very* harmful, it is still *harmful* and unnecessary, and I get the distinct impression that you are experienced enough to know better. I also have no clue why mb53 played follow-the-leader in #80 (mb, why did you make that post?), but if it means that doing something harmful like posting a full scumscale is causing other players to follow Implosion’s example in this instance, I’m not liking it.

IGMEOY, Implosion.

[DarthYoshi]

Another slightly scattershot post:

Nameless—being technical and precise matters.

Implosion—the reason I feel suspicious about you atm is because I am seeing your scumscale in light of your previous actions that I had before simply written off. It isn’t just because mb53 followed your example, although I now think the reaction from myself and others means that people won’t follow that example.

Your response to Mongoose in #111 was right on the money. I'm still not satisfied with Mongoose's explanations so far.

Mb53—I’m not as worried about the “neil = bad” comment as I am about the list. Okay, you said you were stupid for posting it. That doesn’t tell me WHY you did it, it just says that posting it was a dumb thing to do. People usually don’t do things because they’re dumb unless they’re auditioning for Jackass or something. The contrition seems to be masking a non-response.

(On a general level, not directed at Mb53 in particular) I agree with the amount of pressure being put on _over9000, and will definitely consider joining the wagon if he doesn't come through with his promise to post content soon. In my experience, lurking + promising content without delivering = scum.

I would also like to hear from both ICE and Silavor, since both are offering conflicting stories on Neil's meta--ICE in 117 is saying Neil showed this kind of disinterest as scum, Silavor in 105 is saying it was that Neil complained about playing VT. Which games are you guys referring to?

Also, welcome, KingTwelveSixteen. May you actually play towards your win condition.

[DarthYoshi]

In my experience, setting yourself up to jump on a wagon for a reason that hasn't occurred yet = scum.

In my experience, showing an open mind to the possibility of new evidence if it presents itself = town.

(And, FWIW, _over9000, you still have posted close to zero content...like, at all. I may agree with your point on Mongoose, but his voting pattern has been under suspicion for a while now. KingTwelveSixteen's assessment of you in point 3 of #132 is pretty accurate.)

So neil1113 is frequently an 'inconsiderate' player. Attempting to dig up dirt in games we aren't playing about people who aren't playing sounds like an attempt to waste townie time.

Because clearly when we are only five days into a D1 with a three-week deadline, whether or not we are wasting time must be a #1 concern, especially concerning a player who, for whatever his successor might do to make amends, still cast a significant amount of suspicion on that playslot. If we were days from the deadline, I might agree with you. But when we're still well over two weeks from the deadline? Nope. Besides, it clearly didn't take Silavor much time to post the link to the game he referred to--if I go and look it up, I'm wasting nobody's time but my own.

It seemed like a go idea at the time . I can't go back in time, and remember why I did it, but I probably just thought it would be a good idea to say who is I thought was scummy (and like pointed out later, I had forgotten to mention why I thought nameless scummy earlier, so if I didn't post the list, you guys still wouldn't know I found nameless scummy. So not all bad came from the list).

Dude, this isn't some hazy memory from early childhood, it was, like, three days ago. And all the benefits you claim could have been achieved if you had simply posted a scumlist rather than a full scumscale, and it would have fulfilled your objective of "to say who I thought was scummy." If you thought it was a good idea because Implosion did it first, then Zdenek's point about you becomes quite a bit more serious.

[DarthYoshi]

First, I forgot to put this in my #135 yesterday, but I don’t like Silavor’s excuse in #130—or, at least, the oversight part. I’ll buy the inexperience to a point, as we just played a Newbie game together, but the oversight of not remembering how many players are in the game sounds very contrived and, in my experience, is not like him. He is also coming across as somewhat defensive in #155, which isn’t really necessary when he is at L-5. This certainly is not enough to make him one of my top suspects at the moment, but I do think he’s looking worse.

I am willing to believe KingTwelveSixteen that Neil may have had serious RL reasons to drop out. If Neil wanted to just wash his hands of the game, he could have without PMing his successor all of that. That being said, I’m with Ice and Neko—KingTwelveSixteen does start with an uphill climb, though he hasn’t done anything to cause me to suspect him yet.

Like Ice, I really don’t like Implosion’s #152, in part because of what Ice says in #158, but especially because one could say the exact same thing about Mongoose being an “easy target” as one could about _over9000, and that is who Implosion’s vote is on at the moment. Implosion, why point this out in _over9000’s case and not Mongoose, especially when your vote is on Mongoose? Additionally, he says he doesn’t like the WoMC wagon—okay, but with _over9000 being on this wagon as well, this feels like additional posturing.

I still don’t like Mongoose’s activity (or _over9000’s, for that matter), but with this post + the scumscale + the RVS posturing, I think Implosion has done way more at this point in being actively scummy.

Unvote. Vote: Implosion.

My dissatisfaction with Mb53’s explanations of his behavior remains intact. Would also like to hear from WoMC soon, especially regarding what remains of his wagon.

[DarthYoshi]

EBWOP: Nameless, the coin flip seems really odd when you basically went ahead and did quick reads of the players right after you voted anyways. Why didn't you just do that before you voted?

[DarthYoshi]

@nameless: Wow, nice one. Theres like 3 different contradictions there.
VOTE: implosion

Two posts later...

Well, considering implosion gave a pretty good defense and the main reason he would be doing all the bad stuff said about him (which is apparently just misrepping <_<) would have been because _over9000 is scum, I'm going back to over9000 now.
UNVOTE: implosion
VOTE: _over9000

Holy bandwagon hopping, Batman.

FoS: KingTwelveSixteen.

[DarthYoshi]

Some responses from Mb53's defense concern me--

But really, if I was scum, wouldn't I say something like "Oh yeah, my bad I had no idea it was scummy" rather than tell the truth (WIFOM)?

Isn’t this more or less what you have been saying?

Also. Why am I scum for posting a list, realize it was scummy, than warning others not to post one? How do I (assuming I'm scum) benefit from that?

Because you didn’t acknowledge its scumminess until pressed. Presumably, if you weren’t pressed, other players may have felt free to post theirs’ as well. Granted, you were called out on it pretty quick, but still.

So I won't try to stop the lynch or anything, but I doubt I'm going to be attacking him.

Read: I am hedging my bets so that I won’t attract any untoward attention if I turn out to be wrong.

Other thoughts—

Implosion’s defense has slightly mitigated my apprehensions about him, but for the moment, my vote remains where it is—partly still because of the pattern of behavior I cited earlier, but also because in a re-read, I was wondering about this from Implosion’s #68:

Second of all, then why not just vote WoMC? He's only at L-3 right now by my calculation.

I believe _over9000 was at L-4 (and he has since garnered two more votes) when Implosion made the fuss about that bandwagon. WoMC was a vote higher, and Implosion at that point was encouraging a different bandwagon that was earlier in the day, when we had less to go on. So, my question is—given that scum are likely to hop onto a (or any) bandwagon of an ‘easy target,’ why were you casting suspicion on one bandwagon when you explicitly encouraged the other?

Finally, the game feels like it has slowed down—do we have players in need of prods? I feel like we were promised content from WoMC as well as _over9000, neither have delivered. I know Mongoose is sick, but AFAIK, neither of these players have offered reasons for being absent.

[DarthYoshi]

Mb53:

Whenever I have a gut read on someone,

I have trouble finding any evidence against them, and other people's evidence just seems doubtful in my mind

. Like I said, my gut reads in the last game I was in was wrong, so I'm not going to try and stop the lynch.

Emphasis mine. Gut reads are one thing, but this just sounds like an attempt to excuse away any potential tunnel vision in advance.

From WoMC's wall:

#167...I might agree with if it didn't go and mess up my current reads.

Could you elaborate? This also sounds like tunnel vision. You state agreement with Implosion's #152 and #170 without really saying much of why.

Re: KTS's wall:

Did anything ever come of this? (Spoiler: No, not really.)

I gave my reasons for voting Implosion instead of _over9000 or Mongoose in #162. Here's the relevant sentence:

Me:

I still don’t like Mongoose’s activity (or _over9000’s, for that matter), but with this post + the scumscale + the RVS posturing, I think Implosion has done way more at this point in being actively scummy.

I feel like it should be noted that DarthYoshi agreed with all of the points I brought up in that post where I "tunneled" _over9000.

This is kind of a misrep--I agreed with your third point, that _over9000 had barely posted any content at all.

Woahey, you skipped over DarthYoshi directly calling out to you to say some stuff about the "remains of his wagon"

I was seeing reads happening on the players on his wagon throughout the wall, so I didn't have a "woahey" reaction to him missing my request specifically in his post. Though now that I think about it, I would like to hear why WoMC saw Mb53's #179 as impressive, as he listed Mb just a little higher up as a player he was looking at.

Also, my suspicion of Silavor is slowly picking up--his ISO shows that he has been posting very minimal amounts of content since other players have been putting pressure on him, which seems like selectively defending oneself. I'd also like to hear why his vote remains on WoMC--the other 2/3s of the bandwagon are players who are MIA at the moment, so this vote feels outdated (oh, apparently Mongoose is back now).

[DarthYoshi]

Silavor:

My vote's still on WoMC because I still find him scummier than Implosion, _over9000, or anyone else at this point. But since he's been silent for a few days, I haven't had a whole lot of new evidence to pick over, and since no one else has asked me anything, I haven't had a whole lot to say.

Really? No need to scumhunt on any secondary suspects? Or to scumhunt at all? Maybe you haven't been "asked" particular things, but being quiet as more players express suspicion about you isn't helping your image in my book.

Escuse me?! I was on the over wagon before I voted implosion! Then I realised that my vote wasn't the best one and changed back to over! Absolutely none of my reasoning for voting over in the first place, OR the second place was caused by implosion! In fact it is the other way around, with most scumyness from IMPLOSION being if OVER is scum! Which is why I changed back to over, since if he is town I don't think implosion would be scummy enough to lynch!

I call misrep.

Holy over-defensiveness, Batman (I'm probably going to run that meme into the ground in a big damn hurry).

[DarthYoshi]

The fact that _over9000 had not contributed anything significant whereas WoMC had said things that could be interpreted either way made _over9000 an easier target IMO. If you attack WoMC in that situation, you have to justify what he said as scummy whereas attacking _over9000 you just have to explain how he hasn't said anything.

To some extent yes, especially later in a game, but at such an early point in the game, with so little to go on, justifying seeing scumtells is going to overlap with sheeping because there isn’t enough material yet to go off of, so it would be pretty easy in either circumstance, I would think.

Q21’s case on KTS doesn’t look nearly as bad as his non-response to KTS in #209.

Nameless—why is Implosion’s reason really good if it is also as valid for scum as for town?

Still waiting on Mongoose as well…

[DarthYoshi]

@ Saint:

Welcome. With you, me, and Sil, this feels like a reunion game already. In as much as the lack of involvement was an issue players had with _over9000, and knowing you, at the moment I’m willing to believe you when you say you’ll be more involved than your predecessor.

I do share in the other players’ questions of your read on serial killer neko—Implosion’s note that it is a huge jump in logic, and KTS’s as to why you are so convinced that there is an SK in the setup. (Speaking of neko, where is he? Haven’t heard from him in a while.) I am also surprised that ICE had no problem with that post—ICE, why didn’t you?

I’m also curious about your read on Mongoose—you say in #224 that he lurks as scum, but you also say in your very next post that you played with Mongoose and this wasn’t his scum play—but Mongoose has spent a lot of time lurking or just not being around (including, I would consider, the present moment, with him having checked in some time ago, but w/ still no content). This looks odd.

I’m sure I’ll have more to say when you’re fully caught up.

A few general thoughts:

silavor, I don't like much on ISO. he really isn't contributing anything of his own. More than that, I feel like he's ignoring a lot of the main topics of discussion.

Truth. This has also been pointed out by others, with little effect.

I’m also quickly re-losing patience with Mongoose as well. He checked back in a couple days ago and we haven’t heard from him since.

After re-reading WoMC’s wall, I am slightly blown away by the amount of talk about scumteams on D1. His comment that a 2-2 scum setup fits his reads better also makes me worry even more about tunnelvision from him.

I personally wouldn’t mind hearing Mb53’s responses now, even if Saint isn’t fully caught up, since I know Saint isn’t the only one who has suspected Mb because of the lists.

[DarthYoshi]

Again with the full scumscales being posted...

Welcome, Empking. What do the asterisks on your scumscale denote? And, what about Nameless' play makes him the scummiest to you so far? And, why post the scumscale?

ICE's ISO of Implosion in #242 is pretty damning, IMO.

ICE:

He gave a bit of reasoning as to why he fit in to the SK play style, but I'm not sure how that differs from scum play on day 1.

I'm not sure, either, that is why I don't get why it didn't raise your eyebrows. Seeing scummy play on D1 is one thing, but reading scumminess specifically as 3rd party in a closed setup seems odd.

And, welcome Setael.

[DarthYoshi]

Empking--why is it important to inform everyone of all your reads, as opposed to, say, just your scumreads? And, why gut when you have over 250 posts of material to analyze? And, why are your definitive reads definitive to you?

KTS--how does being eager to accuse work as a scumtell for you? Really, how do all those other behaviors you describe of Saint work as scumtells? Your last post about Saint...it doesn't look good. It comes across as a lot of grasping at straws.

Not liking the amount of lurking WoMC is engaging in. Or Silavor. Neko too, though it looks like he's back.

[DarthYoshi]

3. Because they're ridiculously obvious.

So, obvious reads are obvious because they're obvious.

Obviously.

[DarthYoshi]

Nameless:

Saint, I swear to God I would lynch you right now if you had a wagon.

Do you mean a Saint-specific wagon? Because he has a wagon--some of it left over from _over9000--so this statement makes me wonder why your vote isn't on him.

Saint:

how am i scum with implosion, when i've been voting him since i replaced in?
that makes absolutely zero sense

It's called bussing.

Your play is getting more attention, and I can definitely see why. I'm prepared for some impulsive posting from you based on my previous experience with you, but posts like these are bad, bad, bad.

Empking:

Firstly, he goes through his first two posts of the game without putting on a vote. This is a deliberately anti-town action and oner I would not expect from town.

Why is this deliberately anti-town? I haven't heard of replacing in and not voting as a scumtell.

I'll sort through the rest of the KTS case/defense when I have more time. For now, I'll end with a

FoS: WoMC

for his perpetual lurking, promising content, and not delivering.

[DarthYoshi]

Nameless:

Wow, okay, so obviously I need to pay more attention before posting. >_>

Saint is replacing _over, the player whose bandwagon we have all been dissecting--and you weren't paying enough attention to realize that bandwagon existed? I'm also wondering why you would have been against being the initial vote on Saint if the circumstances had been that way. Your reasons for voting Saint I understand, but how you went about it is awfully fishy.

Saint:

I'm not really happy lynching Ice, although I figured voting him would help me live,

I have to think only scum would consider voting someone else in order to live another day. Saying "but I wanna lynch scum!" right after doesn't negate the sentiment of this sentence. If it were just one of you or _over in this playslot, I might be more open to your saying that your wagon looks like an easy lynch, but when two different players in the same playslot are exuding scumminess? You're now climbing up the ranks of my scumlist.

Implosion:

Not necessarily evidence against Saint, but epic.

Well, what do you think about the cases being made on Saint? You state that with Saint's predecessor _over that there wasn't enough material to analyze for scumminess, but that isn't the case with Saint.

Also @ Implosion: why does 3-4 people seem like a lot for someone to be open to lynching on D1?

The KTS/Emp back-and-forth has done very little to change my read on either playslot, both of which have been scummy-ish for a while (in part due to their respective predecessors, in part due to their own play, though with Emp I can't tell if his lack of forthrightness is scummy or just anti-town behavior).

Also working on plowing through the intro walls from Set and Ice's responses.

And, welcome Pie.

[DarthYoshi]

Since it doesn’t look like an Implosion lynch is going to happen today, I’ve been reviewing Saint and Emp (Ice as well, my thoughts on Set's case on him are at the bottom of the post) as they seem to have come up the most as likely compromise lynch candidates, and I’ve had scum-ish reads on both for some time now. I would not oppose a lynch of either, but I am finding Empking slightly scummier atm for the following reasons:

-His entrance into the game (Setael’s summary in #366 is a pretty good synopsis) was scummier than Saint’s—I felt Saint, in spite of his left-field-ish reads and blatant buddying, was at least more forthright and not playing in as anti-town a manner. There was very little I liked about Empking’s entrance into the game, and he continues to not be very forthright: his #369 responses to Set’s questions still rely entirely on “gut” when we’re 15 pages in.
-His case on KTS in #357—active lurking, lurker voting, vote hopping, all sounds like stuff he is doing as well, while pretending to scumhunt on KTS. I can’t imagine both playslots are scum, just because I can’t see scumbuddies interacting with each other like this, but at this point, I have to think one or the other is.
-And part of the reason this feels like pretend scumhunting is his vote is on Nameless, but his ISO reveals very little scumhunting happening there, which comes across at the very least as inconsistent and/or vote hopping while he pretends to act town elsewhere, and may end up being a form of distancing.

We’re 4-5 days from the deadline (for me in my time zone, it is basically four days, since the deadline is in the middle of the night), and, like other players have said, a no-lynch isn’t an option, so I agree that we need to come together on a wagon. In that spirit…

Unvote. Vote: Empking.

Other stuff:

@Nameless: That’s fine, but you still didn’t answer my question: why would you have been reluctant to cast the initial vote on Saint? Your original excuse for not voting was that there wasn’t a wagon, not that the Implosion wagon was bigger. This excuse still feels contrived…I’m getting a bad vibe from it.

@Setael: I’ve gotten a chance to go over your case on Ice—there’s some persuasive stuff in there, but some of that evidence will depend on how players like Saint flip. That being said, I do agree with a couple of your other points—especially him not calling out Implosion after the scumlist. Additionally, my read on Ice has been less townish ever since his non-reaction reaction to Saint’s entry into the game. However, in looking at Ice as a lynch candidate, I realized that I think Saint and Emp are both better lynches atm—Ice is leaning closer to neutral for me, Emp and Saint closer to scum, and I think with Ice, it will depend on how certain flips turn out, so I’d rather lynch someone I’m a little more confident is scum.

@Saint: How was I “twisting” your words? You said part of your decision making calculus in determining a vote was if it would help you live.

[DarthYoshi]

Alright, this post is a bit of a wall. Just a head’s up.

Emp posts I find particularly scummy:

#249: Empking’s scumscale, with no analysis at all, and after this town jumped on two players for posting scumscales. Claims to have seen said reactions, doesn't seem to care.

#253: His vote on Nameless, after 10+ pages of material is based on nothing but “gut.” Same in #267. Also—if a scumscale is there to remind you, why post it publicly? Letting people know your scumreads, sure, but all your reads?

#308: Lack of analysis is to the extent that some of his points are nonsensical. Also, you call KTS out for IIoA and non analysis? You’re providing almost no analysis. This is the post that sparks the most recent round of back-and-forth between you and KTS, and it goes nowhere. If it is scumhunting, it isn’t very effective scumhunting, hence why it looks contrived. But it also looks contrived because your vote isn’t even on the guy, it’s on Nameless, and you gave no explanation when you switched.

Empking’s defenses:

Why is that scummy?

(Actually howe isn't forthright. My read on Nameless is gut. I say that its gut.)

You say your Nameless read is gut when I think we’re past the point of going solely on gut. Not offering other reasons on a pretty active player looks like a weak vote at best, and an anti-town one at worst, because there is nothing for us to analyze—no reads, no slips, no nothing.

How am I asctive lurking?

You are active lurking by pretending to contribute scumhunting (on KTS) and by posting a lot, but with very little content in your posts. I have no beef with the frequency of your posting, but the lack of analysis makes it come across that way.

Strike the lurker voting, it did not mean what I thought it meant—at first I was thinking of staying on someone’s wagon w/out reasons—ie, lurking, as opposed to voting a lurker.

Now give us some in depth analysis of how you know that I'm only "pretending" to scum hunt?

The things you have accused KTS of--IIoA, lacking analysis, etc (see above) are being employed in a way that comes across as distracting the town. That you are paying way more attention to KTS despite your vote being elsewhere also makes your case on him look less than sincere.

Seriously you complain about me using icky gut voting and then you talk about "feels". BS. Complete BS.

Way to take that out of context. Even though it shows I’m actually giving reasons for my feels.

That's just nonsense.

It isn’t nonsense. If we’re going to allow for L-1 rituals like claiming, blah blah blah, then we need a wagon in the next couple of days to have time for that. I’m not the only player noting that we need to come to a consensus soon (Ice in #348, Setael in #361, Pie in #363). I decided that if I'm going to say I suspect you as much as I do, I should be willing to vote for you.

And, just a heads up, right now, you and Implosion are about neck-and-neck on my scumscale. Saint isn't far behind.

[DarthYoshi]

Not liking Implosion’s #382.

Implosion:

It feels like it could be an attempt to set up future mislynches.

More so than you posting full scumscales?

Nameless’s #384 is money. Implosion, I asked you about the CASE on Saint, not Saint himself.

@Ice: The reason I found it scummy (or, at least, not town, as my read on you atm isn’t scummy, but neutral) is that in #89, you say you won’t give a comprehensive list and say why—if you found simply posting the list undesirable, why didn’t you say so at first instead of *mostly* defending Nameless? This + your non-reaction to Saint’s entrance are going to be more associative tells than anything else, hence why my read on you is neutral, especially before any flips have occurred, but why I can’t yet read you as town.

@Empking:

Why would scum do that?

Any number of reasons--distancing, bussing, plausible deniability--distracting the town by highlighting an "easy lynch" without actually having your vote on the player, etc.

Yers. Its called optimum town play.

What about the full scumscale makes it optimum town play? Especially when based on gut?

Seriously. You're moaning on one hand about me providing all my reads and on the other about providing no reads. (And of course there aren't slips. Slips are a newbie tell.)

I meant reads, slips, tells, etc as examples of evidence that would be used in a Nameless case that we could then examine—they wouldn’t necessarily be coming from you. I meant that you're not offering a real case w/ your votes.

[quoteMy discussion with King has given me a 100% scum read on him.][/quote]

Then why isn’t your vote on him?

[quoteCan you say the same about me or Implosion?][/quote]

No, because this is Mafia.

And, why would a town PR claim on D1 without any prompting when they are at L-2?

[DarthYoshi]

EBWOP: Sorry 'bout the quote tag fail at the end of the above post.

[DarthYoshi]

Setael:

(I'm also nervous that there is no one trying to get Emp out of a lynch which wouldn't happen if he were scum.)

Wouldn't this be applicable for a mason as well?

@Mb53: No thoughts on Emp's roleclaim, or the town's reactions to it? Rly?

Empking

Because that is the optimum play in this sitiuation (Deadline is coming up). Now, why would scum claim mason?

I think Nameless covered that one--because there is no overt night action to confirm the role, so it is an easier fakeclaim.

Re: Your KTS case--I've had a scummy-ish read on the KTS playslot for a while now, and have said as much throughout the game. but the scummiest playslots I've seen so far have been your's an Implosion's, hence why my vote has only ever been on one of those two playslots. I agree with parts of your case on him, like wagon hopping (I FoSed him for it a while back), and he doesn't defend himself well against your AtE accusations. It's poor play on his part, but not enough to put him at the top of my scumlist.

Re: Your Nameless case--you have a case on Nameless? Where is it?

OK. What of those do you think is the case in this game

If I had to guess, plausible deniability, since you keep pointing out your vote is on Nameless despite a "100% scum read" on KTS.

Why isn't your vote on Implosion?

That doesn't answer my question of why your vote isn't on KTS, but I stated earlier that you and Implosion are neck-and-neck at the top of my scumlist. I'm still not sure I believe your mason claim, which at this point would be the biggest reason at the moment to unvote you and re-vote Implosion.

Also, the 'newbie game' line is the second time you've mocked me in this game, and I don't appreciate it. Please knock it off.

[DarthYoshi]

My apologies for not posting yesterday, everyone. I hoped to have time, and RL intervened.

Re: Nameless’s wagon: Emp’s case on Nameless is meh imo—I didn’t like the “I would vote Saint if he had a bandwagon” post either, but I don’t get how, say, his wall on the town v Saint is scum trying to mislead. Set’s case in #423 seems like a paradox to me—Nameless has been overly careful, but still reckless enough to drop a tell like the ill-advised coinflip post? I would prefer a Nameless lynch to avoid a no lynch, obviously, but I think there are better lynch candidates out there.

@ Neko: I’d re-vote Implosion or Saint if the town needs a different lynch candidate. Saint may be the more likely alternate lynch candidate given the bandwagon that was once on him. I will say that his recent behavior of promising content for the past 2-3 days and not delivering is not what I have seen previously from TownSaint, especially so close to a deadline, and I think that not having a vote out 24 hours before deadline is inexcusable. His recent behavior does NOT look like his town game.

Beyond that, I’m not sure—the only other player with a vote on them atm is Ice, which seems out of the question, with only one vote and that vote being pretty outdated from a generally inactive player.

So, here’s where I’m at--I would support the Nameless bandwagon if it were the only way to avoid a no-lynch, but that isn't the case atm. If Emp's mason claim is true, tbh I'm not a big fan of a Nameless lynch, and would prefer an Implosion or Saint lynch. I don't entirely believe Emp's claim, but on the chance that he is actually telling the truth, SOMEONE needs to take the plunge and add to an alternate bandwagon, so I'll push my former vote, as it had a bit of a bandwagon earlier in the day. I'll check the thread later and can re-cast my vote if I need to in order to avoid a no-lynch.

Unvote. Vote: Implosion.

On an unrelated note--everyone, check out Mb53's ISO. His most recent three posts, in order, are:

I don't have much to add but...
myself wrote:
I think this fight between Empking and king is going nowhere.

I didn't have time to re-read the thread today, but I promise I will tomorrow with everyone's thoughts on nameless/ICE in mind.

Sorry, I was in a rush -_-

I think that empking could easily claim mason whether he is scum or town. And if he really is mason, its his/his partner's choice on whether or not to claim buddy. Really his claim doesn't change my opinion on him.

Obviously we aren't going to lynch saint today, so unvote, vote:empking

I think this fight between Empking and king is going nowhere.

Also, tonight or tomorrow I will re-read the thread with your view on ice and nameless setael

Mb, lot has happened--and you don't have much to add with any of your contributions? Why are you trying to coast by rather than help scumhunt?

@Mod: I realized I added a vote in the middle of my post again. Sorry!

[DarthYoshi]

Honestly, I am actually really worried by this town attitude that a deadline extension is simply going to happen. If it isn’t for sure, then we should be under the assumption that the deadline is *tomorrow*. If the extension is granted, great, but so far, about half the town has posted since I re-voted, and no one is willing to try for an alternate bandwagon (except for Set starting an Mb one, and nobody has really expressed a willingness to bandwagon Implosion). We’re roughly seven hours to deadline, and I don’t know if I’ll be able to check in again before the deadline to see if an extension is happening. Anything is better than a D1 no-lynch, and given that reality, I’m re-voting Emp. This puts him back at L-1.

Unvote. Vote: Empking.

[DarthYoshi]

@Setael: I basically telegraphed my #503 in my #480—I said I would re-cast my vote closer to the deadline in order to avoid a no-lynch, and you didn’t seem to have a problem with it then. Assume my re-vote was scummy—why would scum be like, “Hi everyone, I’m gonna do something really scummy in a few hours! Make sure you watch!” In any case, I believe that it was irresponsible to act as though we will be getting an extension without it being set in stone, and so not re-voting would have been deliberately risking a no-lynch on D1.

@Nameless: How exactly has Implosion redeemed himself? I see little scumhunting happening from him, and perfunctory defenses at best.

@IP: Saint is indeed a Furcolow alt.

And, @Swiftstrike: Welcome!

As of right now, I see three non-Emp candidates for my vote—Implosion, Mb53, and Saint. I think Implosion’s disappearing act around the deadline (and its subsequent extension) is scummalicious, but still nobody except for Ice is willing to be a part of an Implosion wagon. So, with about 50ish hours to deadline, there's Mb53 and Saint. I have been saying this for a while, but this just isn’t matching up with what I know to be Saint’s town game (a game in which he actually did replace in as town). Then, he was much more vocal, or at least much more insulting, towards his accusers, and here he seems much less eager to step on peoples’ toes (as evinced by recent statements like “go ahead and lynch me” rather than actually defend himself against accusations), which I read as a scumtell.

#542 worries me. A lot. Saint basically says he isn’t going to scumhunt. He’s basically saying that not being proactive is pro-town, which it isn’t. His #538 “stay out of the spotlight…” reads more on how to play as scum rather than as town.

I realize that I helped kick off the latest round of suspicion on Mb53—and Mb, don’t think for a minute that I am letting you off the hook here—but Saint’s latest round of posting is enough to make me want to vote him instead.

Unvote. Vote: Saint.

PEdit: Yeah, shifting play as an excuse is suspicious as well. Missed noting that one.

[DarthYoshi]

@Mb53, Saint, Neko, Nameless, and IP: All of you (and maybe KTS as well, with that last post) in the last few pages or so have expressed some level of suspicion about Implosion. Do all of you feel strongly enough about your Saint/Mb votes to not want to consider forming a compromise Implosion bandwagon?

(And, for being the two most likely lynch candidates, Mb and Saint are both awfully silent right now.)

[DarthYoshi]

Since only one person joined the Implosion wagon today, my vote is staying where it is for the moment, but I’ll try to check again before I go to bed to see if there is still a risk of a no-lynch. I'm okay with a lynch of either Mb or Saint, especially to avoid a no-lynch, but right now, I'm still leaning Saint by a nose. Mb is at least trying to defend himself, Saint just seems to be trying to pretend the cases on him don't exist.

However--

Mb53:

I've been think this the whole time, but if I said anything along these lines saint would just yell "OMGUS" and everyone else would ignore it.

Not wanting to do something solely because of the reaction it would cause sounds scummy.

Also not liking that Implosion basically admits in #578 that he is sheeping in his Mb vote.

PEdit: Scratch what I said about a person joining the Implosion wagon. Guh.

[DarthYoshi]

Swiftstrike:

I don't believe we should be mass claiming at this point after all day ones are more likely wrong lynches and we lost one player at night which should basically be expected so I don't see the dire need to mass claim

Saint would you explain why you see the need for us to mass claim?

^ This.

Saint is pretty blatantly rolefishing--a massclaim isn't going to help protect PRs in the slightest, and besides, as Set pointed out, a VT drew the NK, which tells me that the scum faction either hasn't picked up on any PR reads, or that their PR reads are incorrect. So I don't see the urgency either, and am finding said urgency fairly manufactured, honestly.

My top two suspects remain Implosion and Saint. I didn't much like Imp's vote of Mb53, it had wagonhopping written all over it, and when pressed by Mb, Implosion basically concedes sheeping his vote because:

Implosion

Like ISOs 34-36, they're all really vapid. That trend continues through his recent posting. There's just really little new information, a lot of restating what he's already said. That's basically it.

Gonna go ahead and say it--pot, meet kettle. (and as an obligatory pre-empt to the "Mb flipped town, doesn't that mean Imp will flip town too?" argument, Mb then put his vote on Implosion, who had little chance of being seen as an 'easy lynch,' so while their behavior was similar, their voting patterns weren't, and right now, that is what I am really finding demonstrably scummy about Implosion.)

Vote: Implosion.

But I would be quite content with a Saint lynch as well. They're practically neck-and-neck right now.

[DarthYoshi]

Neko:

Why not mb's? Other than Saint, he listed implosion and swiftstrike. Why shouldn't we be looking into them?

We should. I’m rather dismayed at how much active lurking the town is tolerating from these two (including from Swift’s predecessor). And, is there a reason why you didn't vote Saint? When you posted, there wasn't a risk of putting him at L-1.

@Setael: While I agree that lynching Saint could provide us with a lot of information—a Saint town flip would force me to rethink a number of my reads—you’re putting a vote on player without actually saying why you think that player is scum. The closest you get is saying that your reasons for not wagoning Saint weren’t that strong. If you think Saint is scum, why? If you don’t think he is scum, then why are you voting for him?

@ICE: Has your read on Emp changed? IIRC, you were pretty against lynching him on D1, but #620 is the second time already on D2 that you’ve expressed (unprompted) suspicion of Emp.

@Zdenek and Swiftstrike: Could each of you explain the scumslips you saw in one another? Saying they are scumslips doesn't make them scumslips--I'm wondering if I'm missing something, and the extreme brevity isn't helping.

[DarthYoshi]

@Setael: Something about your explanation isn’t adding up to me. You posted twice in between Saint’s initial D2 post and your vote on Saint, and neither time did you express any suspicion for a post that you claim you did not like “AT ALL.” You also neglected to mention said post when you voted for Saint. If you were so vehement about not liking the post, why keep quiet on it until I asked, after you had posted three times?

Also, you come back and say that ICE has “always” been your #1 scumread. Okay, that’s fine, but then why didn’t you vote him at the outset of D2?

In other news, ICE’s recent case on Saint is fairly persuasive (and entertaining—I actually LOLed at his redaction of Saint’s words at the bottom of #637). Nameless’s, too. To my eternal chagrin, I can only vote for one of Saint or Implosion. I still feel pretty strongly about Scumplosion, but if support for his lynch continues to be a mile wide and an inch deep, I’ll reconsider.

@Empking: How would a Nameless flip inform us re: KTS? I don’t disagree that a Nameless lynch could be quite informative, but I’m not seeing the KTS connection jump out at me.

[DarthYoshi]

@Setael: How do you get scummy vibes (in your words, “scummiest idea ever”) from something you think a townie might say? Your explanations aren’t jibing, and it just makes it look like you were supporting an information lynch on a player you actually still thought was town.

@Neko: What in your #646 would you have wanted to ‘get a response’ from Saint on?

@Empking: How would Saint flipping scum clear Nameless and KTS? Is it just that you don’t think scum would bus their scumchum that hard, or do you have other reasons?

I would also add Swiftstrike to ICE's "needs more of" list. This game needs to hear more Swiftstrike.

[DarthYoshi]

Setael:

when I first read it

I didn't think that much of it, since I can also see a townie thinking (erroneously imo) that a mass claim at this point is a good idea.

Setael:

I didn't consider that townies might also think a mass claim was a good idea (at that point)

until after

Emphasis mine. Anyone else see the contradiction? Set, you apparently thought Saint's massclaim idea was townish before you thought it was scummy, but also didn't think it was townish until after you thought it was scummy? All to explain a vote for an information lynch on a player you admit was way down on your scumlist?

[DarthYoshi]

EBWOP: Just saw Implosion's epic re-entry into the game. I'll start plowing through that novella tomorrow.

[DarthYoshi]

Mmmkay, my responses to Implosion's comments to me--I promise this won't be much of a wall.

Implosion:

I wouldn't call it "wagonhopping." I mean, technically it was, but deadline was approaching and there were two clear leading bandwagons.

Yeah, deadline was approaching, but IIRC, you, like many on the Mb wagon, expressed little suspicion of him beforehand. You hopping on the Saint wagon would have looked even odder, given your comments about the _over wagon on that playslot that caused some of us to suspect you to begin with (never mind the possibility that you two are scumchums together). So, yeah, your vote on Mb looks like it was hopped on by default.

Implosion:

First of all, hypocrisy isn't a scumtell.

Hypocrisy by itself, no. I was trying to point out that you were looking quite scummy yourself. If Mb looks scummy because of X and Y, and Implosion is exhibiting X and Y, then Implosion probably looks scummy.

Implosion:

Second of all, how do you find my voting pattern scummy? My vote was on Emp because the deadline was approaching, then there was an extension which allowed time for new wagons to form.

Actually, your vote was on Emp's slot way back when it belonged to Mongoose, and I'm not sure it ever changed. Which isn't necessarily scummy, but I don't think you parked your vote on Emp for the reasons that you're stating now. In any case, I still see your Mb vote as scummish.

Also, your vote on ICE is giving off fumes of eau d'OMGUS. Actually, now that I look at it, the ICE wagon is covered in Drakkar OMGUS Noir.

Finally, in a sentence, what's your read on Saint? You seem to hedge a lot about him in your catchup posts. What would you think about him being today's lynch?

@Setael: I'm going to need to go back and re-read you vis-a-vis Saint before I reply. You're not off the hook yet. I just wanted to get my responses to Implosion out while I had the time.

[DarthYoshi]

Nameless—hope you get your housing crisis worked out. That’s awful.

Assuming ICE didn't want to claim for whatever reason, Setael’s hypothesis of ICE’s actions (and their link to Implosion) makes a fair amount of sense. But before I vote, I’m going to do some re-reading just to try to make sure that confirmation bias isn’t setting in.

Setael:

I don't think emp's buddy should claim yet. We should wait one more day and hope scum hit a VT tonight. I feel like we have enough reason to lynch implosion today that we don't need the masons to claim just to narrow down our choices. The longer they don't know who emp's partner is (and keep not killing emp to try to get us to do it for them, or at least out the partner), the closer to end game we have 2 confirmed townies alive, and there's plenty of time to lynch emp if there ends up being no partner.

Is this assuming we lynch scum today?

@Swift: Why the FoS of Implosion? Your catch is pretty good, why not vote for him?

@KTS: Why are you voting a claimed mason without first asking his buddy to claim?

@Implosion: No top suspects coming into D3? Rly?

PS: Swift—I didn’t get a chance to answer your question about my meta before Saint self-hammered. Check out Newbie 1059 and Newbie 1048. I’m relatively new, so those are the only games I have where I’ve flipped town.

[DarthYoshi]

I forgot to add with my first post:

Vote: Nexus.

Quoting Ke$ha in a narration should be a lynchable offense.

After re-thinking ICE’s posting pattern…Setael, if what you say is accurate—that ICE investigated Implosion and got a guilty result, leading him to conclude that Saint and Imp were a scumpair—why wouldn’t ICE out his investigation result? A 1:1 trade, even with a PR, is typically a good deal for the town, and a 2:1 trade is excellent. Nabbing two scum in one go would be as good a use of a cop as you could probably hope for.

I could definitely see Setael being scum—her voting pattern on D2 was hella odd, she required multiple takes to actually come up with an explanation that made sense, and she immediately pounced on ICE after he crumbed mason/cop all over #626. I had a neutral-leaning-town read on her going into D2, but since then, her play has been all sorts of squirrelly.

However, I am going to vote for Implosion again right now, but more on the strength of Swift’s catch than Setael’s analysis. Implosion’s only reply to Swift was simply “what he said didn’t make sense to me.” Having re-read the original exchange, I don’t see any confusion being exhibited on Implosion’s part—he was certain enough to want to vote ICE. So I’m inclined to see Implosion’s words as rolefishing. I also think this is the case because of this exchange in #667 where Implosion also votes ICE:

[quote=Implosion]

You also seem to have knowledge of the setup.

Who's to say that there's no masons or cop? You seem to be falling back on the "oh, well cop can clear him and his partner" idea. Well if they're real (as has been stated) it's somewhat likely that there is no cop; and if they're fake, there still is not necessarily a cop.

VOTE: ICEninja[/quote]

Emphasis mine. Re-reading this, this vote is all kinds of awful. Tells aside, there’s likely no way for scum to know whether there is a cop in the setup—only a cop would know there is a cop in the setup. So what Implosion is claiming is a scum tell (knowing what town PRs are in the setup) would actually be a town PR tell…

and then he votes for ICE.

Yeah, I’m still pretty sure Implosion is scum. Wouldn't be surprised if Setael is, either, though.

@KTS: Here’s why I was so leery of your vote on Emp—you were the first post of D3, so nobody else could have said on D3 that Emp’s buddy should claim (like they have subsequently done), so I think you saying it is assumed that the buddy should claim looked contrived. But since Emp has said his buddy isn’t going to claim, I’m still thinking about this. Will wait to see what Emp says in response to Zdenek.

Unvote. Vote: Implosion.

[DarthYoshi]

Derp, quote fail midway through my above post. I've been doing that a lot lately. Sorry, folks. It should be easy to spot.

[DarthYoshi]

That's L-1 (and Swift, you should have noted that when you voted). Nobody hammer Implosion until he has a chance to refute the case and/or claim.

Also, I am not Emp's mason buddy.

[DarthYoshi]

Emp: The "I am not Emp's mason buddy" was in response to Nameless' insinuation that Imp, Neko, Zdenek, or I was lying about our status. I think I have actually been far less vehement in demanding that your buddy out him/herself than other players have been.

I think Implosion needs to respond to the cases that Setael and I are making on him, as they contain significant amounts of new material that he hasn't responded to yet. My vote isn't going anywhere.

[DarthYoshi]

Emp--looking at my interactions with KTS today, I think my stance has been fairly clear--if it is to keep you as a claimed mason from getting strung up, then your partner should claim today. Better for the scum to have to use up their NK on a claimed mason than have the town mislynch and do it for them. Absent that contingency, I don't think it's urgent.

BUT, when a player insinuates that I may be lying, I'm going to respond. And the only way one can really respond to accusations of lying is, well, to be truthful. Which is not sneaky by definition.

[DarthYoshi]

That was overdefensive. My post was clearly an attack on Empking's claim, with some provocation towards Zdenek to clear up the only off-chance Empking is actually townie.

Then I think it was a misinterpretation on my part. I saw it as you saying that one of the four of us was definitely lying if Emp wasn’t. Given what you’ve said just now plus a re-read of the Emp-Zdenek material you’re referencing, your motive is much clearer to me now.

Also, "Setael's and your" cases containing significant new material is BS. Setael hasn't done anything except literally quote ICEninja, while your points were either taken directly from Swiftstrike or had already been answered by implosion in #667.

Setael’s “ICENinja probably got a guilty on him” stuff was new material (even if it is weak material, it is new). My catch of Implosion’s vote in #667 is new material—Imp didn’t “answer” it in #667, he committed the slip in #667 in addition to the rolefishing slip that Swiftstrike caught. And, my response to Implosion’s “It wasn’t clear to me” defense to Swiftstrike’s catch was new material.

Also, why are you defending Implosion now? IIRC, earlier in the game, you thought he was scum. Has your read on Imp changed?

It IS interesting that DarthYoshi's only been on major wagons around deadline. Any response to that, Darth?

Because I didn’t want to see us no-lynch?

Functionally, we’ve had only one deadline, D1. D2 doesn’t really count, since Saint self-hammered out of the blue well in advance of deadline (though if you go through my D2 posts, you’ll see I was pretty enthusiastic about a Saint lynch). On D1, I was pushing the Implosion wagon hard, but I decided that it didn’t help the town to just park my vote there when there was a risk of not lynching.

Darth, you were suspicious of Empking before, but now you don't want him to claim his buddy unless it is to prevent his lynch. What's changed?

It sounds like you and KTS (and maybe Nameless, but he seems to genuinely think Emp is scum) mostly want to lynch Emp to verify his alignment as opposed to him being scummy. I’ve heard of towns policy lynching claimed millers before LyLo, but not claimed masons. If someone has, then please correct me, but I tend to be uneasy about policy lynches in general, but also so in a situation like this.

If there is a case to be made against Emp that is beyond simply to confirm whether or not he is a mason, I would probably be more sympathetic to an Emp lynch. But so far, that’s mostly what it feels like the discussion today has boiled down to. If you/KTS/Nameless have other reasons to lynch Emp, then convince me.

unvote

Just to stop the day ending prematurely.

Swift, did you know that your vote put Implosion at L-1 at the time you cast it? Why are you backtracking on your vote so quickly?

@Town as a whole: I agree with Nameless, Setael, Neko, et al that Implosion’s VCA, while extensive, is not terribly useful. I’m also concerned that Imp basically has ignored almost all of the reasons expressed for voting for him.

[DarthYoshi]

I'm an ever-growing disaster of quote tag fail. One of these days I'm going to get it right. Really sorry, y'all.

[DarthYoshi]

I realize Empking could be lying about being a mason and if we don't hit scum today we're at lylo so the more I think about it, it seems like the ideal play is for the buddy to claim.

What do you think should be the town's course of action if the buddy still refuses to claim?

Gonna re-read some of Emp's posts, especially vis-a-vis Zdenek after Neko's vote.

[DarthYoshi]

…but I'm leaning back towards scum again given some of his more recent posting. If so, his quick wagon I'm thinking is the other scum bussing hard to gain credibility back after pushing several mislynches.

Ok, this makes sense.

That you were on a wagon at deadline isn't the problem - it's that you may have been avoiding wagons the rest of the time that looks suspicious. Implosion's vote was hardly a slip, he did give the (I feel reasonable) justification of "flawed reasoning is flawed reasoning". And yes, there is a strong case to be made that Empking is scum (that's why he was forced to claim, after all), but I'll leave that until after I've seen Zdenek's response.

There was a small Imp wagon on D1—it wasn’t huge, L-3 or L-4 IIRC, but yeah.

My personal belief is that hopping on a wagon is key to, say, prevent a no lynch, but I’m not going to hop on a wagon for the sake of it; to me, that’s like the fallacy of appealing to the majority. Barring circumstances like preventing a no-lynch, or some sort of gambit or whatever, I think it is generally optimal play to put your vote on the most deserving player whether or not there is a wagon.

My motivation in voting Implosion out of the gate D2 was in part because of the sheer number of people at the end of D1 who expressed suspicion of Imp—I thought that I could successfully push that wagon.

Your case on Emp in #774, now that I’ve had a chance to re-read and refresh myself on the D1 suspicions of Emp, is persuasive. That, + the admitted fakeclaim + Emp’s very minimal defending = I’d be down with an Emp lynch and am ready to put him at L-1 if/when the town feels ready, as people are expressing hesitancy and some worries about self-hammering. But yeah, Implosion can wait. I'm convinced Emp needs to be today's lynch.

[DarthYoshi]

Also, I am skeptical of the idea that Setael was just bussing Implosion.

Any particular reason why?

Setael I have a town read which is why I suspected he was mostly likely a mason buddy with Emp but of course couldn't lead a reference to that

Did you miss the several posts towards the end of D1 just before you replaced in where Setael was pretty vehement that Emp's buddy needed to claim? I can't really see a mason buddy acting like that. The reason I point this out is to ask if there are other reasons for your town read on Setael, since I'm not sure what you cited is actually much of a reason.

@Emp: So, let me get this straight...you think I've been bussing Implosion for, like, the entire game?

[DarthYoshi]

How does empking flipping scum look bad for me?

Personally, I'd start with how vehemently you were against an Emp lynch on D1. Though, IIRC, Zdenek was against it, too.

Also, two posts in the last 24 hours is pretty bad. The only reason I held off on voting Emp was because some players didn't want a wagon that quickly, but those players (Imp and Neko off the top of my head) have barely been active the last couple days anyways, and the town is stagnating as a result.

Nexus, is anyone due for prodding?

If y'all need more time for D3, whatever, cool, we have a week. But this level of inactivity is kind of ridiculous.

[DarthYoshi]

Oh, and:

Unvote. Vote: Empking.

That's L-1.

[DarthYoshi]

I thought he looked like town

when he was arguing with Empking. He had logic

and didn't look like mafia

.

Emphasis mine. Circular reasoning is circular. This is a bad explanation for such a strong town read. What do you think of KTS's play on D2/D3?

I'm still weighing reads, as two of my leaning-scum reads (Saint and Emp) turned out to flip town. I still kinda have a ScumImplosion itch to scratch, but I'm increasingly leaning towards ScumSetael as well.

[DarthYoshi]

Again with inactivity from folks. Swift and Setael, please at least check in and let us know where you're at.

[DarthYoshi]

@Implosion--I'd still like to hear what you think of KTS's play on D2/D3.

@KTS--have your scumreads changed at all from D3?

[DarthYoshi]

Setael, your vote is an incredibly anti-town move. Assuming you’re right—town is facing a three-scum team and this is LyLo—then that vote confirms you’re either scum or you’ve just become that one townie the scum needed to convince. Right now I’m definitely leaning towards the former.

In any case, your evidence is awful.

His play seems the most careful and deliberate. He's managed to avoid suspicion of himself for the most part and not make too big of waves.

A variation of the too-townie fallacy. If I have enough towncred to avoid suspicion, I must be scum?

I feel like I was his pawn

with the mb wagon. He posted the mb posts with a "anyone noticed this?" and I jumped on it

like a fool.

Emphasis mine. This just feels like an AtE to the town at large.

Also, notice the contradiction here. I apparently don’t make waves, but I was the force that got Mb lynched.

My motive behind highlighting Mb’s activity was pretty straightforward—to try to draw a reaction from a player slowly creeping up my scumlist but when my vote was on who I felt was a scummier player (Implosion). I later switched my vote to Saint because I decided that his non-defense reactions were more likely to be from scum than Mb’s actual attempts at defending himself.

This post is a good example. He answers a question meant for Weapons, trying to appear helpful. He then sheeps nameless' jab at weapons. He then defends/buddies up to ice in post 43.

I tend to see questions of terminology as universal that anyone can answer. There was certainly no reason why only Weapons could have answered Nameless’s “What is IIoA?” question.

Also, if you recall, I took a fair amount of heat from Nameless over the next few pages for defending ICE. You’re right, scum don’t want to draw attention to themselves. Going out on a limb like that for ICE so early on was not a scum move.

He doesn't push weapons at all though, and his next post only talks about implosion. If he were town and really didn't like weapons' defense (and wasn't afraid of drawing attention to himself) he'd have followed up with weapons about this instead of just letting it go.

I explicitly let it go in #101. I realized that being ambivalent about the tactical worth of WoMC’s techniques wasn’t necessarily indicative of alignment, and I had no other reason at that point to suspect him.

That’s it. That’s your case on me? Some half-baked suspicions and a couple of early D1 posts are enough for you to vote me during what presumably is LyLo? Holy macaroni with cheddar.

I would also be remiss if I didn’t also note that I’ve been building a case on Setael since D2, and Setael has a history of seriously OMGUSing and subsequently being wrong (her vote on ICE during D2). The only reason I’m not voting her right back is the off-chance she’s town that just made a seriously anti-town move and that today is probably LyLo. On any other day, I think voting her would be a good move, but I'm holding off for now. We can't afford to mislynch today.

[DarthYoshi]

^This (re: massclaim).

I had good reasons for not voting Setael out of the gate when she voted for me--namely, that I wasn't convinced enough that she was scum to vote for her in a LyLo situation. Her unvote muddies the waters somewhat for me, but I have to think that if she was town, one of the scum would have also likely tried voting for me in an effort to generate that final mislynch. Even though I'm still leaning towards scum for her, my most confident scumread may well remain to be Implosion. But Neko's arguments about a Swift-Z connection are something I'm going to need to go re-read and look at as well. I feel like both players--especially Swift, as he hasn't had the V/LAs that Z has had--have done a fair amount of flying under the radar throughout the game (including Swift's predecessor, who got away with basically dropping out of the game pretty early in D1).

I know Neko said he's leaning town on me, too, but I do want to respond to one thing he said in particular--

Set's vote isn't really all that irresponsible. She is right in that you've not really gotten any attention this game. Why do you think you're still here? Why for example, do you think Ice was the NK after Saint's lynch and not you, especially if implosion is scum? I need to reread you pretty carefully.

There are two problems with this. First, this also reads as another variation of the too-townie fallacy. Second, I think trying to read into potential NK motives is an inaccurate art; but if I had to venture a guess, two of my scumreads (Saint and Emp) both flipped town, so scum may not view me as much of a threat. I'll concede that this is making me re-evaluate my ScumImp read, but I think that is getting very close to WIFOM territory. Questions like these aren't all that helpful.

I'll probably have more to say when Setael is done re-reading and/or re-allocates her vote.

[DarthYoshi]

Setael, who do you want to claim next? (That is how popcorn works, right? Person who claims chooses the person who goes next?)

[DarthYoshi]

VT.

Assuming we're not asking KTS or Imp to claim (what's the point?), Neko, you're next.

[DarthYoshi]

Hi everyone, I'm going to be V/LA until late Saturday/early Sunday. Sorry, I know that it's a bad time in the game. I'll catch up when I return.

[DarthYoshi]

Posting this from the San Francisco airport, where I am currently stranded. (This may be more a LA weekend for me than a true V/LA, especially if my current luck holds )

Wow...I actually have to agree with Setael on this one—I’m not buying Swift’s (fake)claim either. Usually, vigs can be confirmed by shooting, this hasn’t happened, and Swift can come up with the convenient excuse of being roleblocked now that he knows, with a doc and cop having flipped, that there is almost certainly a scum roleblocker in the setup.

And yeah, Setael’s right that this PM looks pretty contrived. It looks like it was originally written to convince us, not the mod. This looks like an attempt to try to become cleared as town by fakeclaiming a PR that can’t be verified. This + misrepresenting your reasons for not NKing last night + what other players have said about you flying under the radar = Swift, my read on you is rapidly changing.

And, after a cursory re-read, a Swift/Imp scumpairing would explain a lot of Swift’s behavior…his original FoS of Implosion on D3 for rolefishing (rather than a vote), his attempt to subtly discredit me on the basis of my posting style while I was trying to get Implosion lynched, etc.

I'm going to take the weekend to think about it (I also want to re-read Swift/Setael interactions to see if this might be a bus/distancing attempt), but I could be amenable to a Swift lynch. And when Swift flips scum, that should be the death knell for Implosion.

[DarthYoshi]

I'm back. And, o.O

Wow.

Yeah, I badly misworded that--I could have sworn I put "he knew that town knew" in there, but that it is what I get for posting a stream of consciousness from the airport waiting area while jet-lagged. I realize using RL as an excuse is potentially sketch, but it's what I got.

But--look, Setael was the first to suspect I was scum, and her case on me was basically, "he's been so cautious and thought-out, he must be scum." I think this was reflected somewhat by Neko. If I were scum, writing a post like that in circumstances like that would be hella out of character for me. Why take that kind of risk at what presumably is LyLo?

Not sure why everyone else seems to be buying Swift's claim wholesale unless it is because of the change of perceptions on me.

I'll have more later.

[DarthYoshi]

Also included in that same post he made a far more solid case on neko-scum (including the statement: "I don't see a possibility of this post being made by town"!) than his Yoshi-scum case but he still voted for Yoshi.

This is a great catch.

And it ties in well with what Zdenek looks to basically be saying--that Setael is trying to get anyone other than her lynched today, which, if this is LyLo, makes a lot of sense for scum, because scum want anyone but them to be lynched, and they win. I'm beginning to think her entire suspicion on Implosion during D3 was a scripted bus--she articulated no suspicion of him beforehand, and afterwards, today, he is basically off her radar as she is trying to get me, Swift, or Z lynched. Her reaction to Z's stated desire to lynch her looks like more OMGUS--suddenly, her top suspect switches again, this time from me to Z.

Yoshi's response is pretty well what I expected if he were scum. I think the mistake swift pointed out could have come from town not thinking things entirely through. It seems like Yoshi is trying to salvage his argument here, and while I suppose it's feasible he's telling the truth, it just seems so contrived to me. This is definitely

just a gut feeling

, but I'm not inclined to believe him. I also feel that the way he mentioned the roleblocker suggested that he's got inside info. Actually, quick poll: who would have guessed there could be a mafia roleblocker before Swift and Yoshi mentioned it? I didn't, but I wasn't really thinking about it, so I want to know if anyone else found Yoshi's comment strange.

Emphasis mine. This is a paragraph of complete fluff, surrounding what is basically an admission that, despite nearly 900 posts in, a scumread on me is basically just on gut.

Also, the poll thing is ridiculous. I think it is a fairly accepted principle on the site as a whole regarding setup construction that if there is a sane cop and a doc in the setup (and in normal games, I think the cop is required to be sane), then there has to be a scum roleblocker to prevent the town from breaking the setup and playing follow-the-cop.

@Setael: You were unhesitant in voting for me--why are you not voting for Z if you are most sure in having him lynched? How you answer this question will play a factor in whether or not I decide to vote for you.

[DarthYoshi]

The reason I asked Setael the question about her hesitation in voting Z was twofold—one, to see if she would continue the same pattern of not putting a vote out but expressing suspicion of basically everyone else, which would allow her to plausibly jump on almost any wagon at almost any time.

But the other reason was because in #872, on Saturday, she would vote for me “tomorrow” (Sunday). But didn’t. And in her most recent post, she says she’ll vote for Zdenek. She calls out the scum for dragging their feet, and expresses concern about having votes out before deadline, but isn’t walking the walk. KTS hints at this in his #887, and I think there is even more to it than what he points out.

That being said, I still don’t believe Swift’s vig claim for a nanosecond. I think it is fairly standard vig play to shoot on N1, but Swift held off both N1 and N2, but NOT on N3, when misfiring and hitting town would create a 3-3 split with a three-person scumteam, which would basically mean game over—scum could force a no-lynch, then NK and win. Swift’s explanations of his behavior don’t match up with what a pro-town vig would be doing.

I’m equally happy voting for either, but I think people should start putting votes out now. So, for the moment, I’m putting my vote on Swift and seeing what happens. I will check back late tonight or tomorrow morning to re-allocate my vote if need be in order to prevent a no-lynch.

@Neko: You’re giving no reasons beyond gut for my explanation being “contrived.” You’re just saying it’s contrived over and over. Not helpful, especially when that is what your entire bussing theory is based on as well.

Vote: Swiftstrike.

[DarthYoshi]

I have to fly to Nashville today for a conference for school, so I may not be able to post again today (I should have internet access while I'm there, though it may be limited). Deadline is in about 24 hours. Nobody else (except presumably Neko) seems that interested in lynching Swift. I still think Setael is a good vote, and to prevent a no-lynch,

Unvote. Vote: Setael.

[DarthYoshi]

EBWOP: That's L-1.

[DarthYoshi]

Just a head's up, everyone....

Setael has just correctly called the scumteam. Yup.

This has been a friendly PSA from your local service-oriented scumteam.

Lovies,
DY

[DarthYoshi]

A few notes from the scum side of the game…much of which you could get from reading the QT, but whatever (as an aside, I have no objections to releasing the QT if Neko and Zdenek are okay with it as well).

Setael, you actually got a fair bit right throughout the game. Like, you hit the nail on the head on why I had moved my vote from Empking to Implosion to Empking at the end of D1. I wanted town cred, but also wanted a claimed mason lynched. Badly. Mmmm, cake and eating it, too.

We were convinced that ICENinja was Emp’s mason buddy, and I thought that ICE was actually dropping hints that he was mason, not cop, throughout D2, and that is why we had him killed. I suspected him as potentially being a PR, but never seriously thought he was the town cop. We considered offing him on N1, but decided he was more useful alive.

Neko and I were practically doing cartwheels in the QT after Saint self-hammered. That was a bad, bad, bad move on Saint’s part. I'm with Nexus...not sure if I want to play mafia with Saint again solely on the basis of that…I think that self-hammer alone is worthy of Saint/Furc being put on a blacklist.

However, I'm willing to believe Emp that he forgot his role, but still, lamesauce for the town.

As the two above comments allude to, I think my scumchums and I played well, but we were certainly aided by some pretty egregious town errors. If Saint hadn’t self-hammered and Emp hadn’t fake-claimed while actually being a different PR, I doubt this would have been a perfect scum win.

[DarthYoshi]

EBWOP: Aside from Saint/Furc, I'd love to play mafia with any of y'all again. This may just be me, I dunno—but it helped to act pro-town because, by and large, y’all were such nice people to play mafia with. Seriously—aside from the Emp/KTS noise on D1, I never got irritated or upset with anyone in this game, so pretending to be helpful to all of you was pretty easy. Not saying y’all should be jerks—I like playing mafia with nice peoples when I’m town too—but it was nice.

[DarthYoshi]

Derp. I missed that, Nexus. I should stop posting from airports.

Neko--yeah, I was fine with you bussing me on D4, and really, after what I said, you probably should have. Like Z said, nothing to apologize for.

Nexus--thought you did a good job modding. The only minor criticism I might offer is that when WoMC replaced out, I would personally have not replaced him right before D1 ended--he had one more day on his prod, at which point the game would have been in Night, and just replaced him overnight and given his replacement the three days of Night to catch up. That may just be me, I don't know what other folks might do in that circumstance?