Mini 1126 - Game over - Was Averagely Suspicious saved?

[GreyICE]

Hello everyone! Hi Zito, Ashblade, the other townie survivors from the pit of despair. Ash, you changed your avatar

Hello again, Rob. Errant, I remember that avatar from somewhere, can't place it really.

Everyone else, I think you're new to me, though I could be totally blanking on someone.

[GreyICE]

I need to introduce you to Texas Justice, Hayker...

[GreyICE]

Did someone post something on this page?

[GreyICE]

Don't worry, soon enough the madness will start. And then the death will rain down.

[GreyICE]

oh and there is no such thing as a RVS, the entire game is RVS

this was the hardest part of my transition to here, I come from a place where personal insults are expected to this place where you can't say a single curse word without risk of being mod-killed

tbh nobody gets mod-killed where I played, even if the rules were blatantly broken.

Uh, yeah. That depends on the game. I've been known to occasionally have some issues.

(warning: posts may contain swearing)

[GreyICE]

The trick is to swear at no one in particular. Post 60 ftw! So what is the post count per page here again? 20?

25.

And I've... failed at that one too.

[GreyICE]

Yeah... there's this poster named UncertainKitten... I actually like her, but when we go off on each other we GO OFF. Worst is when you get two active posters with tempers and mouths

[GreyICE]

Geez, we have to lynch you or Ashblade day 1, 'cause otherwise I'm just going to get your two avatars mixed up

[GreyICE]

Yup. On my count, 11 people have posted since then(everyone except mockingjaye and Erratus Apathos, do correct me if I'm wrong), that should be enough to start assuming everyone voted yes. So everyone probably didn't.

Scum want more time to talk apparently.

[GreyICE]

Dekes fucking rocks!

[GreyICE]

I didn't vote. I like waiting and I love making others wait.

I will give everyone a door prize if we put him at L-2 before page 6.

[GreyICE]

One goblet. Down the throat. One goblet. Up the ass. NO WIFOM.

[GreyICE]

Vote: Errant Apathos

I DON'T THINK I EVER WANTED SOMEONE TO ADMIT THEY WERE LYING AND BE TOWN BEFORE NOW

[GreyICE]

Only because I was spectacularly dumb...instead of 7 votes needed to lynch, I had 7 on my mind and thought of 4/7...I feel really stupid right now, and I should...

...and since we do have room...I'll do what I would have done if I had counted properly in the first place (as noted in my earlier post)

VOTE: Errant Apathos

YES! YES! YES! Door prizes for all! We have done it!

[GreyICE]

I'm simply

incredibly

ballsy.

I'm not going to disagree with that, you'd need to be to call 102 a case

[GreyICE]

@Errant Apropos: Nowish

Oh lord I've touched off an early-game FoS frenzy.

I don't like your "gut instinct" excuse or your complete lack of discussion of your vote. It's also really early to be putting someone at L-1. This concerns me.

Oh yes. My vote sucks. Along with the six other people voting for him.

5 other people. Or were you hoping it was a lynch already?

Ehehehemeee. No, this doesn't make any sense.

Wait, a frank admission that your reasoning doesn't make sense? Or did I miss something?

I also find it amusing that you accused another player of misinterpreting, then admit you didn't even FoS the right player.

Okay, yeah, this is the scummiest post made yet in the game. "This concerns me," the insinuations, and the last bit where he misquotes Hiraki to try and weaken the case without saying anything real against it, yeah.

Unvote

Vote: Bill

[GreyICE]

So Erratus is town yay let's move on.

As far as I know, the only people that know whether or not this is true are Erratus and scum...

I'm pretty sure this post is the equivalent of roleclaiming scum if you're not in a newbie game.

Unvote

Vote:Subgenius

[GreyICE]

As far as I know, the only people that know whether or not this is true are Erratus and scum...

I'm pretty sure this post is the equivalent of roleclaiming scum if you're not in a newbie game.

What?:neutral: I honestly don't understand how pointing out that townies cannot know the alignment of other players with certainty is a scum claim, but feel free to enlighten me.

Nah, here's how town would say it:

"I don't think we can conclude EA is town because of how awesomely cool that wagon was."

Here's how scum say it: "Hehe, I think EA could still be scum, but Papa Zito is obvscum too for saying he knows who is town."

Yeaaaahhh, just waiting for someone else to start the wagon are we?

[GreyICE]

Well, those two statements are both making two pretty different points. I made the second one, and I don't think it's a scummy one to make. I do like how you paraphrased my version accompanied by sinister chuckling and over-the-top accusations, though. Was I twirling my handlebar moustache when I said that?

I standby my comment. Acting like you know someone is town is scummy, especially since a hypothetical cop wouldn't have had an investigation yet. If my vote wasn't already on Hiraki, I'd be perfectly willing to vote for Papa Zito.

No it's not. You need quite a few snap judgments on day 1 in order to narrow the suspect pool. You can revise those as appropriate, but there's no reason not to snap assume certain people are town to narrow down to the scum for your first lynch.

Scum tend to HATE this, because frequently the method is good at narrowing down to them or a partner. Check out how many day 1 bandwagons have been started on scum - they happen because the scum is acting scummy, and people filter out the town posts until they have a list of scum.

[GreyICE]

Awesome! Q&A sessions! These are made of win! I've always enjoyed hard slamming wine.

Okay:

1) How do you reconcile these two statements, and what is your impression of the writer after making them?

I'm sorry. I know I should have started in a newbie game, and I know I look extremely scummy right now. I apologize that me feeling like I could just jump right into a mini game could ruin this game for all of you. Honestly, I don't have much I could possibly say in defense of myself right now. I know no one will believe me, but I truly didn't count the votes, nor did it occur to me how serious my voting would be. I also did not realize that I was opening up an opportunity for mafia to throw open the floodgates and blitz a mislynch. But practice makes perfect. And you gotta learn from your mistakes. And I've learned all right. .-. But that's truly all I can say. I'm not going to sit here and beg you not to lynch me. I know I look scummy as all get out. I know what I'd think if I saw anyone else do that. But if I'm getting lynched, I wanna go out on a good note, and I truly do apologize for plunging on in here without a clue as to what I was doing. >.<

I'm an aggressive player. I like to throw my FoS's out there swiftly.

Bonus points: Find what's missing.

2) Rob has a meta of being an extremely active poster, except for the last game I was in where he was scum (Mini: 1105). Do you think that his gameplay here is similar, and is that a good reason to suspect him?

3) I have a one-shot power that allows me to choose three players, and one of them will be vigged at random. If I had to submit right now, whose names should I submit (brief explanation would be nice)?

[GreyICE]

To clarify: Rob was called on lurking in #2, and his gameplay fell apart

[GreyICE]

*snip*

Answer feeding isn't fun, and I must use before end of day one

[GreyICE]

You thought it would be more interesting to vote Ash for making the 100th post than to vote me for a superficially scummy admission?

Judging by where we are now, you can't say I was wrong.

Oh dear, you seem to have missed my questions, scum.

[GreyICE]

@wikkiden, explain how in the world the bolded statements here aren't contradictory:

Oh yes. My vote sucks.

Along with the six other people voting for him.

I'm sorry. I know I should have started in a newbie game, and I know I look extremely scummy right now. I apologize that me feeling like I could just jump right into a mini game could ruin this game for all of you. Honestly, I don't have much I could possibly say in defense of myself right now.

I know no one will believe me, but I truly didn't count the votes

, nor did it occur to me how serious my voting would be. I also did not realize that I was opening up an opportunity for mafia to throw open the floodgates and blitz a mislynch. But practice makes perfect. And you gotta learn from your mistakes. And I've learned all right. .-. But that's truly all I can say. I'm not going to sit here and beg you not to lynch me. I know I look scummy as all get out. I know what I'd think if I saw anyone else do that. But if I'm getting lynched, I wanna go out on a good note, and I truly do apologize for plunging on in here without a clue as to what I was doing. >.<

Oh. Oh boy. Nice catch. Damn it, subs needs serious rope today.

[GreyICE]

Oh. Oh boy. Nice catch. Damn it, subs needs serious rope today.

Are these two separate points, or am I somehow wrapped up with Wikki now as well?

Sadly scum come in teams

[GreyICE]

Sadly scum come in teams

But, how did you get subgenius there too? Why subgenius rather than someone else?[/quote]
'cause I've only laid out the case on subs a few times?

Wikki is more likely to be confused town than sub is to be town. Wikki actually reads more like the classic day 1 mislynch to me, although scummier than the typical one.

[GreyICE]

And sub - plllleeeaassseee don't ask me to discuss ongoing games. If you look at my recent posts, you'll see a distinct pattern.

This game has also stalled like shit.

[GreyICE]

It's not good play because those tells have been obsolete for years. However, it shows a town motivation because he's taking the time to read an article on how to find the scum.

True, I really can't think of a scum motivation for reading an article on scumtells and memorizing it.

Wait...

[GreyICE]

Please. That wagon was built on awesome

stupid

and win

scum

and should net us some excellent reads

never have gotten to L-1

.

Like namely, caution being a very good scumtell, which is how Subgenius and wikkiden hit our attention right off the bat.

Also on a wagon getting to L-2 before the game had finished its first official page.

[GreyICE]

@GreyICE
I would expect you to include Bill in this list. What's your current read on him?

Uh, he's fairly town to obvtown?

I get more of a null out of a lot of people than Bill. Why am I including him, again?

[GreyICE]

There's questions I care to answer from scum?

Ashblade, not saying you haven't found scum, but my god that was such a scumpost. Hey Subsy, if there's so little "town" motivations for my behavior, shouldn't your vote be on me? Or are you just casting suspicion around on people who are pushing your wagon?

[GreyICE]

It's a sudden read?

[GreyICE]

@ bvoigt - if you disagree with SE on wikki, why is your vote still on wikki? I don't get that.

What do you mean? SE doesn't agree with Erratus's catch, but I do.

The world will rejoice if you add some damn content to this thread.

Your ISO is failure, absurdity and one liners.

[GreyICE]

It's a sudden read?

TELL ME WHY YOU THINK BILL IS TOWN.

I've had enough of your evasive bullshit.

Okay, I read his ISO, it reads town to me. I read his posts, they read town to me.

It's not evasive. I just don't give a shit about your opinion.

[GreyICE]

@subsy
Oh how clever, scum would never write that.

Unvote.l

Seriously, your grand scumhunt has dug up bill? Call a mulligan, find better scum.

[GreyICE]

Unfortunately it's consistent with his play in other games.

[GreyICE]

Hey, not saying he's not scum just... don't expect big things.

[GreyICE]

My god man, you're like cryptoposting.

That being said, I'm actually starting to lean that EITHER lynch would hit scum. Or maybe

lean

. But definitely not

lean

, that's just wrong.

[GreyICE]

Wait. Edit:

Erratus Apathos (6):

RobCapone

,

Ashblade

,

GreyICE

,

Bill McQuill

,

Barry Allen

, wikkiden
subgenius (L-2):

GreyICE

,

Ashblade

,

RobCapone

,

Barry Allen

,

Bill McQuill

RobCapone, Ashblade, GreyICE, Barry Allen, Bill McQuill

Gawd that's terrible.

Huh.

I... never noticed that.

That's actually really terrible. If subtastic is town, that puts at least two scum in that group of names, and I'm leaning Barry and Rob or Bill (sorry, Ashblade is just too town. It might be one of his scum talents, but if it is, he's got me fooled).

[GreyICE]

But subs is probably not town, you can't analyze who is voting for whom, until we know for sure what they are

neither of those guys are confirmed town so who voted for them is irelevant at this point

No it's not. It's very relevant. If the same five people are sheeping each other, it's very unlikely that they're all town. At least one or two are scum playing follow the leader. Town just doesn't think that predictably.

It doesn't matter if sub is town or scum. There's people on his wagon who are just doing things to look townie. Do you disagree?

[GreyICE]

Well idk but I didn't sheep anyone

I started the EA wagon iirc
and I laid out why I am suspicious of subsy, once hayker posts more I'll move my vote back to subsy

Interesting. I didn't say specifically that you were the one sheeping, yet rather than look at who was, you immediately jumped to the conclusion that you were under attack.

That conscience seems a tad guilty.

Unvote

Vote: RobCapone

[GreyICE]

I'm interested in something now (Warning Zito: Meta argument incoming - but good one this time, promises!)

Here's arguments you make as scum:

but you are

probably

lying, I know you andrew and you get lynched early in lots of games,

I can see you

totally making this up to get town cred.

Your role doesn't even make sense

, I never heard of a person with multiple lives before.
Also and

on the off chance you are telling the truth

and you don't die, there is no gurantee we will be at Mylo, you are making HUGE assumptions like you know what the night actions are going to be.
You are assuming we don't find a guilty person overnight.
when going through there are obvious scummy people. You, furclow, and Don are my top 3

1. he seems to want to establish town cred so he follows Tasky's advice and changes his vote
2. when Jerb's FOS'd me pappums follows it up by saying he FOS's me also. He also says that the current discussion isn't going to tell us anything which seems to me like somebody in that conversation is scum and he wants to deflect to somebody else, no to mention he had just gone over 2 days without posting anything himself (after being called out for his vote switch mind you) so pot:kettle for the inactivity. The going inactive is a classic scum trick to go get the attention off of you
3. he votes Ross and says it is mainly "gut" and using the whole reaction to tasky's questions to start (notice yet again he is following Jerbs, he followed Jerb's FOS and follows Jerb's Vote)
...
5. unvotes mute/rain but he seems reluctant to
6. right after I say elleran is indecisive, pappums chimes in with his own comment about elleran being weird
7. tries to explain his votes but isn't convincing enough to me

unvote, vote Substrike

He was yet another person who claims lurker hunting is anti town which is totally not the case, Weird was the first to call lurkerhunting and he was scum, so I am going with substrike.
The general consensus on mafiascum is lurkers are anti-town and in my personal experience lurkers are more often scum, so lurker hunting is totally acceptable (can provide evidence if need to)
his reasons for Amor lynch were weak and his reason for voting Tmh was even weaker (don't think he even gave one that I can find, other than just sheeping his vote, he also claims tmh chainsaws and OMGUS's but never provides any evidence for it)
add the fact that he was a lurker also and attacking people lurker hunting I am more comfortable with voting him, I'd urge somebody who has an investigative power check out emp

Vote Mariyta
1. because her vote on the wagon was really suspicious, even pointing out that she was checking the vote count, granted I also said I wanted to check the vote count but I was actually trying to vote and actually it submit and was stopped by her vote and that comment had me worried.
2. she hops off the wagon and goes after an inactive?
3. she tries to twist my words to mean something completely different and when I call her on it, she ignores me.

You're much more certain and forceful about your cases when you're town then scum. Washy cases are often a scumtell, but Rob, for you they're a lot stronger than they are for many people. You are a person who likes to be right - being scum forces you to either bus buddies, or be very very wrong in a very forceful manner.

This is your case on Substrike:

I have been trying to tell if subs was just newbish cause he sounds alot like how I played when I first joined, but seeing he has been here since 2008(regardless if he "hasn't played in a while") he should not be playing like this if he is town, so I have to assume he probably isn't and just trying to play it off that isn't working.

Hayker:

vote hayker
for somebody who was eager to start the game, his play since it started still hasn't lived up to the expectation
he still has more pre-game posts than he does since it started, plus he has logged in since his last post and hasn't provided anything new

My vote is because since the game has started he has had 3 posts and has logged insince his last post 3 days ago and posted nothing
He comes in posts a little, ignores the subs wagon basically and votes somebody and leaves
looks like he was attempting to fly under the radar, 1 vote on him isn't enough to get him to participate, maybe a 2nd will, if not than others can decide what to do but he IS lurking.

and I laid out why I am suspicious of subsy, once hayker posts more I'll move my vote back to subsy

My one problem is that both of the town games I'm reading you were protecting a power role, so were obviously making a certain percentage of total nonsense posts to lower the odds that you were seen as a danger. But what strikes me clear and true is this - you like to be certain someone is scum, and you DON'T like bussing your buddies at all. The result is some epically washy cases.

Which is what I'm seeing right now. Kinda admit you have my attention.

[GreyICE]

Well I am a bit new to this for one.
And I guess you could say my gut is inexperienced but it is still there none the less.
And yes lurking, its just my opinion.

PenPen, you're new and you don't read scummy to me, but I want to offer you some advice:

If your gut feels a certain way, then mull it over. Read their posts again. Offer some decent feelings. Guts read the way they do for reasons - and they can be totally right and totally wrong. "gut" is the thing that makes you jump out of the way when someone is coming up behind you - a change in the light, reflections off water and metal, sounds you can barely hear. Gut is the thing that makes you convinced there's someone in the house when it's empty - sounds you can barely hear, changes in light, raw paranoia. You have to learn to filter one from the other.

Use gut as a compass, not a final destination.

[GreyICE]

Zito's theory is sheeping twice, I sheeped 0

Zito's theory is that scum would gleefully hop onto two townie wagons. I expected the wagons but have different sets of participants with just a couple people in common. Instead I get

that

mess.

PenPen, now that you've voted someone, what are you going to do?

They're both wagons I suggested, and I have just that much potential for raw awesome?

That or certain people tend to listen to me too much. Probably the latter.

<-best when ideas are taken with a grain of salt

Regardless, it's also almost certain at this point that (if we assume both were town wagons) one of the scum is straight up sitting this one out.

[GreyICE]

*twitch*

Rooooobbbssssssssss

If you're town, it's ridiculous to give up. There's two things that move wagons
- Good explanations of what you were doing, why you think like you do, and why the wagon is wrong
- Better targets for finding scum, based on behavior.

If you're scum... if you think your lynch is that inevitable, or if you are afraid you might out a partner going down, it could be the right play. Personal judgment of course (I've self-hammered as scum - sometimes it's worth it to deny them something they wanted).

Please don't make the play that makes me think you're scum if you're town...

[GreyICE]

that is essentially what hiraki has done, I don't care if he votes you but he asks for reasons why people are voting you, when his reason for his vote is essentially nonsense.

Not really. But nice defense. Noted when Bill flips scum.

if someone calls me scum, I don't defend that person's wagon

Yeah that's not really smart. That's just getting butt-hurt really.

it seems like you are trying to stall the inevitable and hope something happens to get the attention off of you, the deadline means nothing in the grand scheme of things if people are convinced you are scum.

What's your point? You said this randomly and actually it's gotten me annoyed.

but you supported his wagon and now it is at L-2 you seem to be avoiding it, idk just doesn't make sense to me.

He's not really avoiding it though.

Yeah so RobCapone or Bill. Take your pick please.

Just to say, if anyone was wondering, here was my initial reasoning for wanting Rob as dead as Bill.

Subs, play more, read wiki less

those scum tells became invalid the moment they were posted

unvote, vote subs

I have been trying to tell if subs was just newbish cause he sounds alot like how I played when I first joined, but seeing he has been here since 2008(regardless if he "hasn't played in a while") he should not be playing like this if he is town, so I have to assume he probably isn't and just trying to play it off that isn't working.

But um.

You could press that name(subgenius). And you'd be able to go to his profile.

And search his posts.

And find that he's played barely any games.

Also, "he should not be playing like this if he is town"

What the hell is that supposed to mean? Are town people supposed to act like all town people? You're making no sense, assuming with no information, and you're voting him because scumtells from the Wiki apparently are invalid the moment that he posted in here. Does something not make sense here, or is it everything?

This is Hiraki's first mention that he'd like to lynch Rob. Which would be... on saturday. "Swooped in to place an opportunistic vote?" +1 misrep.

[GreyICE]

He doesn't post all day and swoops in to bandwagon, not a misrep

He posted at 1:34.

He posted again at 3:30 to change his vote.

2 hours != 24 hours.

[GreyICE]

penpen is doomed to slowly drive me nuts, isn't he?

[GreyICE]

btw I am going to bed, if I wake up to being L-1 I will hammer myself as town and not bat an eye lash.

my record already shows I will do it, so remove this wagon on me or be prepared for the most epic fail of all times.

I thought you said you weren't giving up?

GreyICE is probably scum. Not long after the substrike wagon starts losing steam, he just silently slips off for a Rob vote. After all the heavy rhetoric Grey used on substrike, if he changed his read I would expect him to say something about it, and if he didn't change his read, I wouldn't expect him to jump off it for a weak-ass case on Rob. On top of that, there is his ridiculously ridiculous waffle on Ashblade:

Ashblade, not saying you haven't found scum, but my god that was such a scumpost.

(sorry, Ashblade is just too town. It might be one of his scum talents, but if it is, he's got me fooled).

*snort*

If I'm scum I make a lot more sense and read a lot more town. It's really easy when I KNOW all the alignments, I don't have to change my reads or move my vote much because who cares? I'm getting a townie lynched.

If I'm town I actually have to make the best lynch possible, the one I think most likely to hit scum.

Now Rob's claim... huh. I'm so not sure what to say. Did you breadcrumb it anywhere?

[GreyICE]

EA: I offered door prizes if we got him to L-2 within a page. We got it, prizes!

Subs: He's somewhere in this grey area for me. I've been getting a town feel from his posts, and more importantly, there was this problem:

subgenius (L-2): GreyICE, Ashblade, RobCapone, Barry Allen, Bill McQuill
Bill McQuill (L-5): Hiraki, Snake Eyes
bvoigt (L-6): Papa Zito
Barry Allen (L-6): subgenius
Papa Zito (L-6): Hayker
wikkiden (L-6): bvoigt
Hayker (L-6): Erratus Apathos

There just wasn't a counterwagon developing. I'm not saying I haven't ridden a scum wagon to lynch before without anything else developing against it, but I've got to say it's pretty rare. Some scum is going to say "Oh, that Bill McQuill (or someone else) is scum, look at these very good points, and here's this and this, I think my vote belongs there" and that wagon will suddenly gain momentum. The fact that there's so much noise and so little action says to me that they're perfectly content to watch the Subs train roll into the station.

[GreyICE]

*town feel from his recent posts.

His early posts still don't make me happy, but at this point I wouldn't be thrilled to see him lynched.

[GreyICE]

Welp.

I mean first it's "there's no valid reason to vote me" and now it's "I'm not responding to those valid reasons."

And if your response to that is gonna be "Those aren't valid reasons" then you're gonna have to tell me why aka respond to the case.


Grey: Rob is a subs counterwagon y/n?

Well, yes. But I started it, and I know I'm town. Which doesn't really help you all that much.

I have a much better feeling about this one than the sub wagon tbh.

[GreyICE]

Grey: Rob is a subs counterwagon y/n?

Well, yes.

Well help me out here then.

You posit that subs is a bad lynch cuz no counterwagon developed on him. aka scum were happy to watch his head roll into a wicker basket.

But here we are with an instawagon on claimed-Tracker Rob which you agree is a counter to subs but inexplicably you feel better about this one. And regardless who started it, it sprang forth incredibly fast amirite? So tell me what the difference is.

See if hiraki was so set on me getting lynched, why unvote?

Our claimed Tracker says he's gonna hammer himself if he hits L-1 sooooo

I'll try and help you out Zito, but at this point, do you truly, honestly believe that we've had three different wagons on TOWN here?

I mean earlier, you said that you think Subgenius was town. So your theory is that I disrupted a town wagon to go... after someone who, as far as I can tell, you're not too certain of being town. You shouldn't be, because I'm not very certain of him being town right now.

[GreyICE]

There's nothing I loathe more than a self hammering townie. If you're scum maybe you can get away with it, but... just...

Dude, PLENTY of good reasons to self-hammer as scum. Screw with their heads, it's all about screwing with their heads.

In every game I've ever read, I've only ever seen one good self-hammer from town, and one good self-vote (the self-vote was in LyLo, and was totally epic).

[GreyICE]

The first one was on town. And there's more town than scum this game.

What I think isn't the point tho. The point is that you think the subgenius wagon was bad because there was no counterwagon, but then there's a counterwagon on Rob. So doesn't that make the subgenius wagon a good one now?

This just hurts my head. First, lemme see:

-I've said Subs latest posts have me feeling more town than scum
-The period the subgenius wagon was ongoing was quite substantial, with no counterwagon arising
-I started the bleeding counterwagon

I mean seriously the only person I'd look at if Sub was scum out of that incident would be you, because of your wonderful IoA "lets see if the town will enjoy shiny thing X" style post, and actually the general volume of IoA that's floated out of your posts.

I'm not happy with Rob's recent posts, and I don't know how I feel about lynching claimed power on day 1. I've done it and had them flip power, I've done it and had them flip scum, I've backed up and had them flip scum anyway later. I've backed off, watched em provide jack, and get lynched two days later because "they weren't NKed" and had them flip their PR. But if someone starts a different wagon, I fucking want SOMEONE ELSE TO START THE WAGON. If we count the EA wagon from my offer of prizes pre-game, I started ALL THREE wagons this game. PEOPLE ARE BEING LAZY. THIS FUCKING SUCKS YOU LAZY TOWNIES.

[GreyICE]

ooh I said I'd self vote, I have done it 3 times as town, probably more

You've done it as scum too so from an alignment standpoint it's meaningless.

You're also being 100% reactive but that's also pretty much meaningless.

Which is why I can't really support your wagon. Your actions are anti-town sure but I don't see scum motivation.

HE DOESN'T HAVE ONE.

He doesn't plan as scum. I know this from 1105. He just floats along, adding posts to the thread and vaguely assembly reads. The goal is to survive. They had DAYTALK, and their thread was just random blorts and blips. I had the same problem - I couldn't come up with a scum motivation for his overall post history (I assumed he was the town vig, since I could come up with a vigilante motive to act like he did - provable claim, wanna act scummy and slightly useless, a few emotional posts).

Well screw it. He ain't planning if he's scum. He's just trying to survive.

[GreyICE]

Zito, I'd really like it if ya took a stand on something or other eventually. Not like "No, dun like this" "no dun like that."

NO DUN LIKE YOUR GAMEPLAY SCREW META I WANT MORE CONTENT.

IF YOU HAVE TO PICK:
1) BARRY AND BILL ARE BOTH TOWN
2) BILL IS SCUM, BARRY IS TOWN
3) BILL IS TOWN, BARRY IS SCUM
4) BARRY IS SCUM, BILL IS SCUM

TAKE A STANCE ON SOMETHING YE GODS

[GreyICE]

I have an opinion on this particular one, but I so need something answered first:

MULTIPLE CHOICE QUIZ

ZITO:

1) BARRY AND BILL ARE BOTH TOWN
2) BILL IS SCUM, BARRY IS TOWN
3) BILL IS TOWN, BARRY IS SCUM
4) BARRY IS SCUM, BILL IS SCUM

1-4, acceptable answers.

I'm not planning on lynching you if your reads are not 100%, I JUST WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOU ARE THINKING MAN.

[GreyICE]

MY FRIEND PENPEN HAS DRIVEN ME INSANE. I'VE DONE IT. I'VE SNAPPED.

I'M DOING A PBPA.

Papa Zito wanted my top 3 so here goes:
1. RobCapone for his sarcasm, also because of what GreyICE pointed out earlier this page about him jumping to Conclusions.
2. Barry Allen Its just a gut feeling.
3. Snake Eyes seems like to me he has been lurking a bit.

Vote:RobCapone

Penpen what do you think of our friend Hiraki here.

I see Hiraki as the opposite of RobCapone.

I don't understand why he would make a post saying that he gives up for unless, he is scum.

Unvote

So you don't know why he would make a post saying he gives up. Unless he's scum. At which point...

you unvote.

I wish Bill would post more.
Hiraki, Who do you think are town?

Why are you asking Hiraki?!?

Your right mocking did post once.
Makes me wonder if Subgenius was trying to hide that info or if he was trying to be deceptive for some reason.

Why are you FOSing Sub without followup?

I've decided to put my vote back on Rob. I don't think he is doing a very good job scum hunting even though he is posting a lot.

Vote:RobCapone

This is like a reason for voting? MY BRAIN HURTZ. WORST REASON EVER.

I see rob now as being as PRO Town as Papa Zito and everyone knows papa zito is pro town.

OH MY GOD MY HEAD MY HEAD

Well you have posted a lot since I voted for you the second time and your posts have convinced me your not scum.
I mean since your town you wouldn't want the town to vote for you right?

This isn't logic. This doesn't even play it on TV!

I have posted a case throughout the thread

your ACTIVE lurking
your refusal to make a case when asked yet you ask others to make a case
your opportunstic swooping out of nowhere when my bandwagon starts to vote me an put me L-3 I believe
your defending your accuser (see my rapist or baseball card analogy, they both fit)
you purposely trying to turn things I say into a scumtell or scummy aka strawman

now where the fuck is your case on Bill,

if you don't post a case on bill in your next post than it is an admission of guilt and we can lynch you.

You've made some really valid points there.

I HATE THIS I HATE THIS.

He replaced Wikkiden? Wikkiden of the "HOW MANY VOTES WERE ON THE SIX-VOTE WAGON?" fame?

I. Cannot. Take. This. Anymore.


There's no town motive to make these posts. I'd say there's no scum motive, except that it's driving me nuts, and my brain liquefying and dribbling out my eardrums can't hurt the scum.

[GreyICE]

As for not voting Ashblade or PenPen - I also do not believe in OMGUS votes. If you will note my original vote on EA was based in part on the OMGUS, and in part on claiming there was a case posted when in fact that wasn't a real case (at least not from my read). So to summarize: Yes I think this looks like a counterwagon, and no I'm not OMGUS'ing or voting a role claim even though that would be easy to do. I'm leaving my vote on someone I've suspected of being scum for quite some time, and I am comfortable with leaving my vote there.

So you won't vote for someone you think is scum if they vote for you?

This has moved beyond caution and into you lecturing us on how you're not doing any of the things scum are supposed to do so you can't be scum.

[GreyICE]

Nope - although I will point out ICE that your "lecture" is coming from the person who brags about having let the first three BWs of this round. Is that really something you're proud of?

No.

I'm disgusted at the rest of the town for that reason.

I'm waiting to hear from Zito before I move forward, because if today has been a spotlight, it's oddly avoided that corner of the room, and I can rectify that.

[GreyICE]

Real quick before I run to work:

Well I'm voting Bill so how are two of those even valid?

Barry I'm ok with at the moment. There are others I want dead more. So I guess 2 although I'd rather have 5) Bill is scum, Barry is neutral-townish.

(I think someone said I'd pick 5 lulz)

Tomorrow, it turns out. Grading papers intervened. Apologies.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand scene.

The two were valid because it wouldn't be the first time I've caught someone with no idea who their vote was on. Sure, like 1% chance, but miracles happen.

I'm not sure I agree with you, but I think my vote is on scum at the moment (Rob changed his behavior in response to criticism. Eventually he'll get a scumgame out of all the ways people catch him) but people aren't down with lynching the claimed PR this time around, so w/e. Will wait for Bill's post because town can be plenty busy too.

[GreyICE]

EA mentioned this already, but I do not like this post at all. You totally ignored his actual case, and basically used self-meta to clear yourself. What's your response to his point about Ashblade? Why did you call him scum in one post and obvtown in another?

So not only are you posting garbage, you're not even reading the damn thread and blatantly sheeping others cases?

Vote:bvoight

Maybe if you put one lick of effort into the thread you'd have done one single thing this thread that wasn't scummy. But you haven't. If we don't lynch you someday, you're still going to be alive at LyLo, because either you're scum, or you're town so dumb that you CAN'T EVEN READ THE THREAD.

[GreyICE]

I don't know if that's bog average failure, or if it's because he's still obv scum, but:

I didn't vote. I like waiting and I love making others wait.

I will give everyone a door prize if we put him at L-2 before page 6.

subgenius (L-2):

GreyICE,

Ashblade, RobCapone, Barry Allen, Bill McQuill

That's my response to your case, scum.

[GreyICE]

Help me understand why you stopped everything you were doing for this 1% chance.

I stopped everything you were doing because you were a short skirt and two pompoms away from role claiming cheerleader.

You're now providing good input and taking good stances, but dear lord I had no idea why everyone had you on a town read, and whenever everyone's doing that without reason on a player of your experience level, I wig.

I wig a lot, yes. Hazard of the job.

[GreyICE]

so really, try and come at me again bro because your response to my case just got disproven.

Not really, I'm going to ignore you. I don't seem to have six others game for lynching you today, and I'd rather find your buddies then sit around and get baited. I admire running cover for them in this circumstance, I really do, but I don't feel like playing.

[GreyICE]

FTR Tracker is a really terrible claim to make, especially in a Normal.

Dude, his last fake claim in a mini normal?

BOMB

Then he discovered we deal with bombs by arguing about who to throw on them until he gives up and claims scum in the thread.

Tracker is like three steps up on the fake claim ladder.

[GreyICE]

*Sigh*

Bill hasn't done anything pro-town. The problem is, I have a suspicion he will flip town. He's not helping himself or us by lurking, but anti-town != Scum.

If we're going to lynch someone on the principle that they're scummy and generally useless, my vote will be on the penpen wagon in about 0.5 heartbeats. He's 100% guaranteed to be alive at LyLo unless we lynch him or he gets vigged. Given his cases so far, he's just going to run in and throw down a random vote... if he's town. If he's scum, we'll never know, because my comprehension of his posts is subzero - I just cannot understand what he's thinking when he posts. And Wikki's "I didn't know how many votes were on the six vote wagon" defense was bizarre, to say the least.

[GreyICE]

If he's not a tracker then he'll be easily caught.

What's penpen done that's been scummy?

Fine, we can catch him when he outs one of our PRs. Woo hoo. A fake tracker claim can work for a while, especially because when in doubt they can just fakeclaim results on scum. I don't know why it's 'so easy to out.' It's not the most provable damn power role on earth, and it makes a good fakeclaim because it's not doctor/cop level of stupid. Watcher? Now that's a terribad fake.

As for PenPen, as far as I can tell, he's done exactly what Bill has (to quote: "My biggest beef with Bill is his chronic active lurking.") Penpen active lurking? Some small examples:http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... lect=15279

That's his ISO.

1. Cases that make no bloody sense:
2. Great voting logic.
2a. Earlier
2b. Even earlier
3. Where his vote is right now

I swear unto god most of his posts are either him tentatively feeling around for wagon possibilities without starting anything, or HIM BREAKING MY BRAIN.

And I'm gonna wagon Bill for:


1. A vote on EA's terribad bandwagon. Arguing against the vote while making it. (

Penpen hasn't made a vote that made a lick of sense

)
2. Admitting that he's going after easy targets (

Penpen is doing what now?

)
3. Pushing the subgenius wagon to L-1 for "welcoming pressure" when that's a perfectly legitimate hunting tactic (

that reads like frustrated town to me. Like "You welcome pressure, scum? WELL GET IT."

)
4. Accusing others of nitpicky posting when doing that himself (

yay, inconsistency, a sure scumtell

) (

check penpen's brain-breaking Rob unvote for inconsistency

)


So yeah, If I'm fucking wagoning Bill, I'm fucking wagoning penpen first.

I don't like this wagon.

[GreyICE]

I don't see penpen active lurking.

You didn't answer this, here it is again:

so really, try and come at me again bro because your response to my case just got disproven.

Not really, I'm going to ignore you. I don't seem to have six others game for lynching you today, and I'd rather find your buddies then sit around and get baited. I admire running cover for them in this circumstance, I really do, but I don't feel like playing.

This is a bad answer.

subgenius (L-2): GreyICE, Ashblade, RobCapone, Barry Allen, Bill McQuill

Please explain where this came from and why it was sufficient to answer Rob's point.

Because Rob's point is really stupid. I'm tired of the fact that most of this town seems content to sheep me (and I guess EA, although that looks like just Rob) or nitpick/cheerlead from the sidelines, rather than doing anything that resembles proactive scumhunting. It's gotten a little better since I posted that, but I really don't see the big deal in noting it.

He blows that up into that huge liar case? I can't tell if that's fucking stupid or fucking scum, and at this point I don't care, since no one is lynching him with me today, so I'll just ignore him.

[GreyICE]

Going on record now if Bill is town, ice is confirmed scum

ice voted bill earlier (claims to have started the wagon on him based on his own statement he has started the 3 wagons in this game) and now bill is L-2 and he thinks he is going to flip town

And then there's quality idiocy like this.

I'm sure I don't have to walk you through why this is such a fucking scum post, Zito?

[GreyICE]

Dude, lynch chaining?

That a scum tactic through and through. "Well look at these two people! If one of them is town, the other MUST be scum! So we should lynch one to see if they're scum, then lynch the other!"

If you're truly town and you made that argument, go out back for a bit, and think about what you have done.

[GreyICE]

@ ice, couple more questions

1. If you are so sure I'm scum why did you change your vote to the same person subs is voting for in the very post right after subs
2. If you are winning to lynch pen first, why are you not voting him
3. Earlier you said you think bill will flip town, but later you say you will bw him after pen
A. Why bill if you said you think he will flip town?
B. Why not me since you are convinced I'm scum

These answers will give the rest of the players in this game a better indication of your allignment so please don't ignore them

1) Because no one wants to lynch you to day, so what good is my vote lying on a piece of scum that no one is going to lynch?
2) Because I don't think pen is the best lynch. I don't think bill is either. Bvoight is being entirely evasive and worthless, and his sheep vote was based on straight up not even reading what I wrote. How is Bill doing worse than Bvoight? He's not.
3) When did I say this?
3A) What does this even mean?
3B) Gimme six votes and I'll hammer. Or I'll tell you what. Gimme five, I'll vote, and you can hammer yourself like you asked. I'm not getting those votes, I've laid out the arguments, since then you've gotten scummier and scummier. So what the fuck ever, no one is interested in lynching scum here.

P.S. Bonus section, why I've started to like BMQ:

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p2806824 - feels townie to me, some solid questions and analysis.
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p2809880 - following the game, has a solid reason for his beliefs
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p2811417 - continued pressure.

I see no real acts of distancing, no random FOS, no one trying to help him out, no obvious signs that he's scum. He responds well to pressure.

P.P.S. Rob, you're terrible.

[GreyICE]

@Zito: Will you be one of my five people I need if he's scum? We can get him to L-1 and watch that glorious scum self-hammer.

[GreyICE]

Rob, what are you even talking about at this point? I'm going to wagon bill after I wagon someone I'm not even voting for?

You want there to be a case so badly you're making shit up.

As for bvoight voting for someone without even having a decent reason for his vote to be there, yes. Scumtell. Town needs to lynch scum, they need to have reasons for their vote. Scum know who all the town are, they're just looking to toss down votes and make it through the day.

[GreyICE]

@Zito:

Are you talking about why I am not making the case to lynch Rob today? I want five townies who tell me they'll lynch a claimed power role day 1 before I bother. Otherwise it fills up this thread and adds nothing. If I could argue until I'm blue in the face, and there aren't five other people willing to give him that lovely opportunity to self-hammer, it just runs cover for all the other scum. I'd rather track down one of his partners, convince y'all that the partner is scum, and let Rob be. Not like he won't be under attention and pressure for the rest of the game as a claimed power role.

Fuck, I'm not even sure he is the best lynch today, because of exactly that. He is NEVER going to be under the radar. Never.

[GreyICE]

Flaking is not Rob's MO, sure.
What I'm talking about is:

1. You say you're tired of being the one to start wagons.
2. Rob says no wait you're not the one doing it.
3. You say yeah see look at EXHIBIT A boom case closed.
4. Rob says EXHIBIT A is BS because EA unvoted to make you the wagon leader check out EXHIBIT B
5. You do... things?

My problem with this exchange is that instead of just proving Rob wrong (which would fit your Rob-as-scum agenda amirite?) you have chosen instead to dodge this by calling it stupid. If it was stupid then I don't see why you couldn't just prove it was stupid and make it go away. So help me understand why you're taking this stance here.

I still don't understand why you refuse to answer this point unless you just simply can't and you've been caught.

Gawd this is gonna hit 27 pages soon on Day 1 of a Mini Normal harf.

Zito:
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p2818585

That was my last and final response on the matter. If you do not like it, I do not fucking care. It was stupid, it missed the point, it was a waste of my time. You hit the point dead on in your VERY NEXT POST after this one, which was what I was fucking bitching about.

[GreyICE]

Hopefully, penpen will answer my questions soon.

For those who think I'm trying to get a VI policy lynch, I'm not. I'm trying to get a scum-VI lynched. wikkiden was shown to be lying scum, and penpen has done nothing pro-town. He's expressed suspicion of ~6 people (half the game, in other words), and his Rob vote in ISO #12 was especially bad. Oh and Snake Eyes, you can check my posts from yesterday. This was the only game I had time to post in.

EA mentioned this already, but I do not like this post at all. You totally ignored his actual case, and basically used self-meta to clear yourself. What's your response to his point about Ashblade? Why did you call him scum in one post and obvtown in another?

So not only are you posting garbage, you're not even reading the damn thread and blatantly sheeping others cases?

Vote:bvoight

Maybe if you put one lick of effort into the thread you'd have done one single thing this thread that wasn't scummy. But you haven't. If we don't lynch you someday, you're still going to be alive at LyLo, because either you're scum, or you're town so dumb that you CAN'T EVEN READ THE THREAD.

Please show me what about Ashblade's play made you change your mind about him.

When the fuck did I ever call Ashblade scum, you misrepresenting scumbag?

I didn't. You're lazy and trying to push a case through misrepresentation. That's worse than Rob - Rob could actually think that he's fucking reading when he's being that stupid. You? I see no reason that you would be that lazy from your other games.

So what's going on bvoight? Did you fall on your head recently? Or did you pull a red pm?

[GreyICE]

Terran

Mafia OP.

lulz

GG all.

QFT

Think serial killer

was town power role

Could not believe the flips. Sea of vanilla.

Gimme a town Jailkeeper and a JoAT, and try again.

[GreyICE]

Like really.

I replace the mafia watcher. With a role cop. And SK with a Vig. And I think this game is fairly balanced.

[GreyICE]

I honestly have no idea how I got lynched.

I get sick with the flu, spend a day vomiting and too tired to even think about logging on, come back, and find out I'm lynched.

Like... whatever. Seriously, all sorts of fucking whatever there.

[GreyICE]

Nah. I could have been pissy scum. Hiraki was so obvtown it hurt me.

That lynch was painful. Town deserved loss after that.

Though setup meant town loss was inevitable. Run this 100 times, town might win 15

[GreyICE]

I don't have a fucking clue why I was lynched.

You ranted in the dead topic like a complete idiot. It was useless. It was a waste of time.

Say something worth saying, and you might have a fucking point.

[GreyICE]

Oh for fucks sake

You stupid incompetent git

I explained this. In thread.

You are my fucking policy lynch if you're ever in a game with me again, a messy event I hope I'll never fucking see. VezokPiraka is better at this than you.

[GreyICE]

A mafia doc AND a mafia watcher. A town with only a tracker and a mason pair against a mafia with two PRs AND an SK is a horrifying horrifying thought so I'm assuming vig too.

FROM MASON QT

QFMFT

[GreyICE]

I really don't see the benefit to rehashing the case on GreyICE. In hindsight, his wagon went too fast, and it would have been nice if he had more time to defend himself, but he didn't do himself any favors by letting it get to that point without making a serious defense. Similar story with Hiraki, if he had shown any interest in not being lynched, he probably could have escaped.

I don't know if this refusal to address a case seriously is done in the hopes that the suspicions will blow over or in the belief that a strong defense will make the accused look desperate and scummy or what, but it definitely did not work to the town's advantage in this game.

bvoigt and Zito could have forced one scum to lynch a townie, by threatening to lynch that scum if he didn't.

Good point.

Um subs

The cases were fucking horrible.

Robs was "waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa OMGUS I WILL JUMP ON ANYTHING YOU SAY"

Fucking both of them.

[GreyICE]

Town consisted of a bunch of blah. PZ noted it day 1, I like how he found every scum in the QT and lynched town in the thread :p

Mafia A consisted of a watcher (which was basically a confirmable town power role fakeclaim waiting to happen, since it could be tracked, was not a RB, and therefore could be town doctor, watcher, tracker #2, etc.), a doctor, and a goon.

Mafia B consisted of a lone goon with no special abilities.

Barry did pretty good, considering.

[GreyICE]

Nah. I could have been pissy scum. Hiraki was so obvtown it hurt me.

That lynch was painful. Town deserved loss after that.

Though setup meant town loss was inevitable. Run this 100 times, town might win 15

I think your idea of balance is really, really off.

It's not. 8:3:1 always means if you lynch scum day 1 and 2 you can still be 4:1:1 day 3. Masons are weaker than 9:3 because preventing mislynches is much less important due to two kills. Sk was weakened to give town a chance. So he was like 2x normal sk screw.

This was bad hoops

[GreyICE]

PZ noted it day 1, I like how he found every scum in the QT and lynched town in the thread :p

Yeah well.

um

I'm an honorary scum member I guess?

I still want to know wtf was going on with you that day. I spent a ton of effort trying to figure that out, and when you shut me down I just reeked of "ohnoes I'm caught"

Hiraki lynch was a big mistake. Impatience etc.

Can i see this dead QT? Or was it linked already and I missed it?

Fever was around 102. Vomiting irregularly.

And the wagon was enormous bullshit. If there had been a halfway valid wagon, I'd have answered it, but my point was that no one in the town was doing anything much besides lurking, commenting, and sheeping.

Rob finds one stupid point in one of the most blatant OMGUS cases I've ever seen in my life, and jumps on it. It was one line in a post, and it WASN'T THE POINT OF THE POST.

I wanted to see what someone who wasn't me would do. Frankly, I wanted to lynch Penpen or bvoight (sorry, bv, but it looked scummy at the time). I did NOT expect to come back to me being lynched because of a case that blew banana chunks all over this thread.

[GreyICE]

Nah. I could have been pissy scum. Hiraki was so obvtown it hurt me.

That lynch was painful. Town deserved loss after that.

Though setup meant town loss was inevitable. Run this 100 times, town might win 15

I think your idea of balance is really, really off.

It's not. 8:3:1 always means if you lynch scum day 1 and 2 you can still be 4:1:1 day 3. Masons are weaker than 9:3 because preventing mislynches is much less important due to two kills. Sk was weakened to give town a chance. So he was like 2x normal sk screw.

This was bad hoops

I don't really understand this post. Are you talking about 3:1:8's or 3:1:9's? One of the reasons why we upgraded to 13 players over 12 was to better balance two core set-ups; 3:9 --> 3:10 and 3:1:8 --> 3:1:9. As I said just before, it's quite easy to have things not go your way at night, but additional town power wouldn't have solved that - infact, that would have probably painted more of a target on that player, minimising the chance of crosskills, which are a huge help for towns in 3:1:9's.

The SK is a particularly awkward role to balance in Minis, without making the game swingy. Because by nature, the very inclusion of two killing forces at night is going to produce a swingy game, where crosskills are crucial.

Sorry, 3:1:9 versus 3:10s. I guess the point differs (used to MTGS a bit much) but 3:1:9s still are nearly certainly losses with two mislynches and minimal crosskills.

Town power can definitely be added to counteract that. Examples:

PGO
Bulletproof (or 1-shot BP)
Doctor
Jailkeeper (bites both ways into NKs)

All can cut down on NKs, or swing it back towards town. The first three LET townies paint giant targets on their head. Go doctor hunting, and you might hit the SK or scum with their heads down just blending in. Throw in a Nurse, and the town isn't even that bad off.

Were I to do a 3:1:9, I might do:

1 Doctor
1 Nurse
1 1-shot BP
1 JoAT (Track, Watch, Vig)

As the town power.

[GreyICE]

Jack-of-all-trades

It's an awesome role that I love.

[GreyICE]

lol

Lets go with that, that's much more awesome.

[GreyICE]

Oh shut up. I've deliberately lied as town more times than I can count. Favorite was my watcher results in paramas game, but town reads, roles, truth is subjective in this game.

That wasn't lying. that was making a point. The point had nothing to do with your asinine case. Learn the difference. If someone says "I'm going vla for a week" then comes back early do you lynch them?

Well it's you. So probably.