Open 289 - Hard Boiled - Game over.

[Umbrage]

VOTE: Vordark for posting before me.

I don't think I've played with anyone here before. This should be exciting!

[Umbrage]

I've got an early day tomorrow, so I'm heading to bed. But first...

GMT -5

I'm not sure what RQS is. I'm OK with RVS, I don't really think it means much, but it's fine as an icebreaker.

I've been playing mafia for a long time now, but I'm still relatively new to this site.

I have a laptop, so I'm usually online and posting. There'll be times when I can't post for a while, but I'll try and keep them to a minimum.

And Yoshi, I hate HP as well. My name is totally not related to that pile of crap.

[Umbrage]

[quote="ConSpiracy]So Umbrage, thoughts on people?[/quote]

Why me? As I said, I don't consider RVS means much in the way of scum versus town. I really don't think anyone can find scum on page one.

VOTE: ConSpiracy

You singled me out for a reason, but why would you ask for my thoughts when I said I find RVS meaningless?

[Umbrage]

OK, so my vote on ConSpiracy is about as serious as you can get for page 1 reads. Xtoxm stands out as odd to me, he didn't random vote, he didn't really say hello or anything, he just answered the questions. I'm not saying it's scum or town, it just looks odd.

[Umbrage]

Hi, everyone. Time for some obligatory opening questions--

What time zone are you in?

EST.

RVS or RQS? Why?

I don't care. While you're doing that I have plenty of posts to look at to do my own thing.

What is your experience level with Mafia?

Sufficient.

How active can we expect you to be?

Hahahahaha.

I like this guy already.

What about it is more scummy than a person who is arguably not doing much to get the game out of RVS, and why point it out if it's not scummy?

Uh... what? Firstly, not pushing the game past RVS is not a scumtell. Some people really like RVS. Secondly, I already said why it struck me as kind of scummy, it was really out of the blue, I have no idea why he would ask me that unless he knew that I wouldn't give a straight answer and he wanted to make me look bad. That was my reasoning. Unless you happen to know that he had a better reason, why dispute my logic there? Thirdly, I really don't see how xotxm was trying to avoid moving past RVS. If anything, he was trying to skip it altogether by not random voting.

I brought up the xotxm thing to see how people would react, let me get a feel for the people here. I really do doubt ConSpiracy's motives in asking me that question, but my vote on him was mainly to see how you reacted to a serious vote early in RVS. Just my little way of getting to know you.

[Umbrage]

@ Abelcain:

RVS, I don't really think it means much

I didn't answer the question because I don't like giving out opinions based on RVS stuff. I think ConSpiracy saw the above, and that's why he questioned me. Why else would he single me out?

[Umbrage]

OK, that makes sense.

UNVOTE: ConSpiracy

VOTE: Snake Eyes

[Umbrage]

Agreed, which is why I struggled to understand why you pointed out xtoxm's actions in particular. Well, agreed apart from him trying to skip it. Trying to skip it would mean actively trying to get something going in the game.

I pointed it out to see what the rest of you thought. What do you think of him, exactly? You said he was "a person who is arguably not doing much to get the game out of RVS", which you obviously regard as a scumtell. But instead of going after him, you go after me, why?

I don't understand why you would immediately assume ConSpiracy had some ulterior motives, as asking questions in early game can only help move the game forward.

Well, my questioning ConSpiracy's motives could only help move the game forward, so what's the problem?

In the quotes above you show such remarkable self-consciousness that I'm starting to think my vote is in the right place.

You mean the quotes that explain that I did what I did to get us out of RVS. You've said that it's bad to prolong RVS, and yet you say I'm scummy. Interesting.

Care to give us an explanation for this? Or is this straight up OMGUS?

Ooh, quick to judge, are we? I'm voting you because you've contradicted yourself. See above. You seem desperate to stop RVS and get a wagon started.

[Umbrage]

Contradictory much? Those two sentences were in the same post. You admit to actively trying to get us out of RVS then accuse someone else of being "desperate" to get out?

There's a difference between moving out of RVS and trying to start a premature bandwagon.

That doesn't mean that you can't give a straight answer.

Why should I have given him an answer when I knew any answer I gave would be bullshit?

I don't think anything of him. You're the one who brought him up. As for why I said he was a person who is arguably not doing much to get the game out of RVS, I said it to see if you would suddenly find it scummy after I said it, or back off of conspiracy. I don't obviously regard it as a scumtell, and I never said I did.

Yet, you strongly implied that I should find him scummier than ConSpiracy. Why?

[Umbrage]

@ DarthYoshi: I don't care if my vote 'looks' like OMGUS. Snake Eyes is my strongest scum read, which for page 2 isn't saying much admittedly, but I'm confident in my reasoning thus far. When I see someone surpass in scumminess, I will of course switch my vote over.

[Umbrage]

If you want me to hop onto that wagon, convince me.

QFT. I've never played with Ythan before. Let's see how he plays before we policy lynch him, for Pete's sake.

Why are you drawing an arbitrary line between what I'm doing and what you're doing? Is it because you want it to be scummy when I do it, and not when you do it?

Same thing could be said about you. I've done more to get us out of RVS, something you clearly agree with as you're trying to do the same thing, and yet I'm scummy.

See bolded. I have a total null read on xtoxm, and I'm leaning slightly town on Conspiracy. I purposefully implied so to see how you reacted.

Really? Why? I think I made it pretty clear I was null on xtoxm. What possible reaction could you get?

I wanted him to set the record straight on xtoxm, since him pointing xtoxm out as odd was so out of the blue.

Why do you care about xtoxm? I didn't attack him, and even if I did, he can defend himself.

However, it's his reaction to my attack that really makes me think he's scum. He's attacking his attacker, which isn't a scumtell, but neither is it a fantastically townie response. There's the whole paranoia about Conspiracy trying to make him look bad with a question. He finds me scummy for trying to move out of RVS, while he admits himself he does it and even uses that to defend himself.

1) What you just described is a null tell. Unless I have something to gain by attacking you if I am scum.

2) Paranoia? It's not paranoia if people really are out to get you. You seem awfully sure of ConSpiracy's motives. What makes you so sure he's town?

3) Nice strawman, but if you look back, you'll see I find you scummy because of how you've pushed a bandwagon. When I voted ConSpiracy, I made sure to let everyone know it was a serious vote. I was setting myself up as bait, and you bit. If you think a bandwagon is the best way to get out of RVS, then why not vote ConSpiracy with me? Even if you think he's town, it doesn't matter. It's just a wagon, and it gets us out of RVS. Unless you think that your page 2 reads are going to hold for the rest of the game, I see no reason why you wouldn't want to bandwagon him. It'd be a hell of a lot easier than wagoning me. But you weren't interested in a wagon to leave RVS, you wanted a wagon that would grow, and maybe turn into a lynch. And that is scummy.

[Umbrage]

So ConSpiracy's attempt to bandwagon made sense, but Snake's attempt was "premature?" Even though Snake's bandwagon attempt came after ConSpiracy's?

CS said he was trying to get reactions, he could gain as town from the wagon. I don't see how a town Snake could benefit from wagoning me.

I'm pretty sure Snake's given more reasons than just "Umbrage tried to get out of RVS." Which seems to be the only argument you've made against Snake so far.

If you read back, you'll notice I called him out for defending xtoxm and CS when I see no real need for him to do so. He's gone back and forth on the RVS thing.

If a bandwagon is the best way to get out of RVS, then why not vote someone who had two votes as opposed to someone with three? Even if he's got one less vote, it doesn't matter. It's just a wagon, and it gets us out of RVS.

Oh I see, sarcasm. Haha. Sadly, it falls flat because I did not have a wagon on me, I had a collection of random votes. A bandwagon needs people pushing it. I was pushing CS. If Snake really wanted a bandwagon that would get us out of RVS, he could've pushed with me. But no, he seemed to think CS was town, after only a few posts. Why? He didn't know why CS asked that question to me. He could've found out why by pushing with me. But he didn't.

Care to explain the bait-thing?

I threw out that bit about xtoxm because I wanted to see who would either attack him, or come to his aid. Snake did the latter. Same basic principle with the vote on you.

[Umbrage]

Just a slight townie vibe, from his initial questioning of Umbrage.

I pointed out how he could have a scum motive for that question. Why do you feel he had a town motive instead of a scummy one?

Which is it? Did you seriously think CS was trying to make you look bad, or were you just saying nonsense to set yourself up as bait?

I wanted to make a serious vote. CS gave me a reason.

Here, you imply that the bait is bringing up xtoxm. Can't even keep your story straight.

Same basic principle with the vote on you.

Try reading next time.

It's less scummy to join a bandwagon on someone I don't have a scumread on, than it is to pressure you after you've made a questionable post, and then push a wagon on you when I do have a scumread on you? Also, it's hard to wagon you, yet I want a wagon that would grow to a lynch? How does this make any sense?

Oh, so you did find me scummy now? Before you said that it was simply a wagon to get reactions.

Really? What, exactly, could ConSpiracy gain that Snake couldn't?

Well, apparently now Snake wasn't trying to get reactions anyway. Apparently, he found me scummy because of... well, I haven't quite figured that part out yet.

ConSpiracy has already said he was pushing a wagon with this vote. You've already acknowledged that it made sense that this was a wagon push, so it's not a "random vote."

Yes, but that wasn't clear at the time. CS only revealed it was a test later on.

So... why exactly is the wagon you were pushing on ConSpiracy to get out of RVS more legitimate than the wagon ConSpiracy was pushing on you?

CS had two serious votes on him. Even if Snake didn't want to push on him, he hasn't even acknowledged the possibility that CS could be scum. He's too sure of himself.

Snake clearly didn't think that there was any sort of problem with the question ConSpiracy asked you. Why would he push to find out the reasoning behind it? I admit, even I thought it looked like ConSpiracy was just trying to spark conversation. You're the one making a huge deal about his reasoning.

You just made my point for me, Snake never thought there was something up with the question. As it turns out, there was something up with it, CS didn't want my POV on things, he wanted reactions and a bandwagon. So there WAS an ulterior motive! But Snake never even considered that.

Care to explain the right thing now?

I voted you to get reactions, and I got a nice big fat one from Snake Eyes.

Umbrage seems to be doing a lot of OMGUS voting and a whole lot of flipping out for a relatively painless page one, three-vote, get us out of RVS bandwagon. And the whole act scummy to see who bites thing is just silly.

OH I'M SORRY FOR SCUMHUNTING WHILE YOU'VE BEEN PICKING YOUR NOSE. You clearly don't understand what you are talking about, because the very nature of the gambit I pulled means that I will have to attack the people who attack me. It is only OMGUS if you do not provide reasoning for your votes. I've provided reasoning every step of the way. The only reasoning you've provided is that I'm 'silly'.

a relatively painless page one, three-vote, get us out of RVS bandwagon.

NO!!!!!!! WRONG!!!!!!!!!!! SNAKE EYES SAID THAT HE FOUND ME SCUMMY!!!!!!!!! I HAVE PROVEN IT WAS NOT A GET-OUT-OF-RVS BANDWAGON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU HAVEN'T EVEN BEEN FUCKING READING THE FUCKING THREAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have to go lie down...

[Umbrage]

I'm not going to make a response to Umbrage because if I'm lucky town will just lynch him quickly and nobody will notice I'm not reading anything!

[Umbrage]

Krazy, leave Ythan alone. Now. Keep your personal disputes out of this thread. I'm not having my game contaminated with your marital disputes. As of yet, I see no reason for a policy lynch. I do not see Ythan as lurking or otherwise not participating, at least not as much as some of the players here. You two better get along or replace out.

[Umbrage]

OK, now I'm pissed off.

It's nice that one of Snake's later posts gave you a way to avoid my question, but that still doesn't explain what you thought CS had to gain that Snake didn't when you originally posted that.

It's obvious from his actions Snake wasn't interested in reactions. If he was, he would've pointed out the bad reactions, and attacked other people.

CS's serious votes at that point consisted of the obligatory "Xth vote on anyone in RVS is scummy" vote and your seemingly-OMGUS vote. CS's vote on you was a deliberate third vote. Which one seems like it's more serious?

Fine, it's obvious I can't change your mind on this, but you have to see where I'm coming from. CS' vote on me was not accompanied by any reasoning, or even saying that I'm scum. There is NOTHING there that suggests it's a serious vote. Whereas my case on CS was a true attack.

Nobody else thought there was anything up with the question either. The post was a bandwagon, not a setup. He got the reactions and wagon solely with his vote; the question had nothing to do with it. You're the one searching for a reason to say someone's trying to make you look scummy with an impossible question.

Yes, I realize that NOW, after CS has said the exact same thing. And what is with this whole 'nobody else thought it was scummy' crap? I don't give a shit what the majority thinks, if something strikes me as scummy, I point it out. Only scum try to avoid posting opinions that aren't popular.

Funny that you happened to pull a gambit that makes every single one of your posts look like OMGUS. Especially since your "reasoning" seems to be... well, you like falsely quoting people, right?

YES THAT WAS MY FUCKING MASTER PLAN I NEEDED AN EXCUSE TO OMGUS PEOPLE SO I CREATED THIS GAMBIT BECAUSE WE ALL KNOW HOW WELL OMGUS WORKS AND IT IS SUCH A GOOD THING TO DO AS SCUM.

You obviously do not know what you are talking about. OMGUS is when you vote someone who is voting you SOLELY because they are voting you. You do not PLAN to OMGUS. OMGUS is bad as town AND as scum. Why would I not only WANT to OMGUS, but actually create a plan to provide an excuse to do it?

That being said, you've "proven" absolutely nothing. All you've gotten Snake to say is that he found you more scummy than ConSpiracy - specifically, that he had no scumreads on CS while you were acting pretty scummy. It's also nice to say that your "serious vote" on CS wasn't really serious and you just said it to lay bait for a trap, but that would mean you saying that your vote was serious was also a lie. "Lynch All Liars" is a popular policy for a reason.

Shut up right now, because you clearly haven't BEEN PAYING ATTENTION. Snake ADMITTED that his vote on me was because he found me SCUMMY, which means he was LYING when he said his vote was just to BANDWAGON to get us out of RVS. You want to lynch a LIAR? Lynch him.

And I'm so sorry for pulling that gambit that got us out of RVS and led us to catch LYING SCUM.

If you voted for me to get reactions, why didn't you initially get that I did the same with my vote for you? And why did you unvote that easily when I told the reason for my vote? It just doesn't really add up.

I unvoted because I believed you. I had no reason to disbelieve you. I suppose I should've picked up on your attempt to get reactions, but somehow I didn't think of that.

ONE LAST NOTE: I'm leaning toward Krazy and Ythan being scum together, and doing this shit to try and distract the town from any actual real scumhunting. I haven't read all of their back and forth, and I don't plan on doing so. They are making this thread almost impossible to read. I will say again: KEEP YOUR PERSONAL SHIT OUT OF THIS GOD-DAMNED THREAD!

[Umbrage]

So are you going to ever address any player other than me or is this just going to be a quote war?

I would like us all to take a moment and address how ironic this post is.

VOTE: TheBigLebowski

You're obviously not lurking, so what the hell are you doing?

[Umbrage]

So do you have anything to say besides pointing out irony?

[Umbrage]

The vote and my scumread on you came at different times.

It's less scummy to join a bandwagon

on someone I don't have a scumread on

, than it is to pressure you after you've made a questionable post, and then push a wagon on you when I do have a scumread on you?

^ the technical psychological term for the bolded is A SCUM SLIP.

From where I'm sitting your reactions were quite bad. And they continue to be. Why are you so worried, anyway? You're the one who keeps saying page two scumreads don't mean much.

Worried? I'm far from worried. And guess what? Page 2 scumreads are the best we have at this point. I'm not pissing around for 20-something pages. I'm finding scum.

Oh, except the reads on you have persisted until page six now haven't they?

Uh, what? Do you mean the reads I have on others?

If the majority didn't think it was scummy, then why are you singling out Snake for not trying to figure out the reasoning behind the question? I didn't try to find any reason for it. Neither did Krazy. Nor iamausername. So why focus on Snake on this point?

Because you didn't care either way. You weren't concerned, it had nothing to do with you. Snake Eyes though, DEFENDED ConSpiracy. With no solid reasoning as to why he's town. He jumped straight into the middle of our debate.

Nobody said you planned to OMGUS. I implied you were OMGUSing and pretended that there was a gambit to cover yourself.

And you accused me of paranoia? I want you to take a good, long look at this quote. What you are saying is that every single one of my posts, every argument I've made thus far is totally made up of thin air. Do you really think that's the case? Well then, I think I'll decide that ConSpiracy's vote on me wasn't a test at all! He's likely just 'pretended' there was a reaction test to cover himself! Wait a minute, maybe you're only PRETENDING to find me scummy! Maybe you actually think I'm town! Maybe Ythan and Krazy are best buddies! Maybe Elvis is still alive!!

ORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR..........................................................................

Maybe I'm just playing this game like everybody else.

In the future, don't discredit my work here without some damn good reasoning that shows why it is is bullshit, 'K?

[Umbrage]

Ythan's last two posts sum up my attitude toward Krazy perfectly.

@ Krazy: Either let your pissing match with Ythan drop or replace out of this game now. I'm considering a policy lynch on you at this point. If Ythan does something scummy, we will notice it. You don't have to yell at us to focus on him. I don't know what happened in your past with him, and I don't care. Keep it OUT OF THIS THREAD.

[Umbrage]

I still don't see him defending CS anywhere, though. I only see him attacking you for your reaction to the question. Are you saying that he wouldn't have said the same things if someone else had asked the question?

I believe the term is 'chainsaw defence'. When Snake Eyes attacked me, he did so under the assumption that CS is town, an assumption I see no basis for, and for which he has provided none. I don't know if he's protecting CS or just trying to make him an ally against me, but I don't like it.

So you're acknowledging that you change your mind about everything in this game to suit your voting pattern? Because that's the same thing as rationalizing OMGUS.

I'm not sure what to what you are referring. The only time I changed my mind, as I recall, is when I dropped my case on CS. But that was a case made on page 1, and it died out. My case on Snake Eyes however, keeps getting stronger.

You agree with Ythan that my vote on TBL is doing nothing, but you also want me to not respond to Ythan's deluge of curses and insults. Very well, in that case, would you like to suggest a third candidate? Do you then have a town read on TBL? Any read at all?

I agree with him that your case on TBL is an attempt to look like you aren't tunneling. I think if you don't respond to Ythan's insults, he will stop insulting you. And my vote is on TBL, by the way.

Do you believe Krazy and Ythan to be scum, deliberately staging this spat so as to distract the town?

At first I was thinking that, now I'm not to sure. They've gotten awfully personal for distancing/distracting. It's also possible one is scum and is purposely angering the other, but at this point it'd be almost impossible to tell which one.

[Umbrage]

Fuck it, I can't play like this.

REQUEST IMMEDIATE REPLACEMENT OF BOTH YTHAN AND KRAZY.

You are both immature children.

[Umbrage]

Chainsaw is null unless you can prove that CS is scum (or if you can show that both CS and Snake are defending each other). I'm not saying that there isn't any chainsaw going on, but it's difficult to prove that he's attacking you to defend CS rather than just attacking you for scummy behavior.

Call it whatever you want, it's scummy. Think about it. He know CS is town from page one.

Well, you couldn't decide on whether or not you voted for CS for a serious reason or if you voted for him just to bait people into defending him. You also can't decide on why you think CS asked you the question (if he had a make-you-look-bad motive, you wouldn't have dropped your case on him so easily). Still, it seems you flip-flopped a lot less than my memory has led me to believe, or else I'm just not noticing it in your ISO.

I already answered that. I didn't know why CS was asking me to give reads. I had three choices.

1: Say I didn't have any good reads, and look stupid, maybe even scummy.
2: Make up some weak page one reads and end up eating my words later in the game, looking scummy.
3: Call CS out as scum, get us out of RVS, and maybe catch some scum along the way.

I still think I made the right call.

Krazy, Umbrage is not being run up because of the hysterics.

Yeah, I noticed your vote was on me. Mind explaining why?

[Umbrage]

So the reason that you singled out that xtoxm (going to call this guy tom from here on out so I don't have to think about the x's every time I type his name) post was to look for reactions? Why that post? Why the way you did it? I want your thought process going into that comment.

Is that what you meant? I'm not really sure what to make of Xtoxm. I've never seen anyone handle RVS that way before. I wanted to make a note of it, if he suddenly came back and started bandwagoning, it would look really bad. I thought about what would happen if I brought it up, since someone was sure to wonder why I had. I figured that paranoid or opportunistic scum would likely accuse me of attacking him, or he might freak out, so I was sure to make my note of him absolutely neutral, and see what happened next. Thinking back, it does seem like a strange thing to do, but once I thought of it, I was blinded by my own cleverness and had to do it, if that makes sense. I just couldn't resist.

[Umbrage]

I have a couple problems with your #159. First, if your case on Snake Eyes is “getting stronger,” then why is your vote on TBL and not Snake Eyes?

Because I think it'll do more good on TBL. Maybe get him to actually post some content. I know how scummy Snake Eyes is, I want to know how scummy TBL is.

[Umbrage]

In other words, I say I don't find CS scummy, that I find your post worth pursuing, and later find you scummy. Which is, shockingly, what I've been saying all along.

That's what you've been saying. But it's not what you were thinking.

It's less scummy to join a bandwagon on someone I don't have a scumread on,

But that's what you claim you DID do! You joined a bandwagon on someone you didn't have a scumread on, or so you say. So why would you say that?

AND DON'T USE THAT FUCKING RIVERTOWN GAME AS META, THE PLAYERS THERE WERE SMOKING SHIT AND I WAS THE ONLY RATIONAL HUMAN BEING IN THE GAME.

Also, I think your assumption that there's scum on the wagon is a bit premature, as there's no way to know if Umbrage is town. I'd even say that given how scummy Umbrage looks, this wagon could have grown a lot faster, if Umbrage was actually town. It would be very easy for scum to add their votes to the Umbrage wagon, if he's town.

Xtoxm - 0
Krazy - 1 (Abelcain)
Umbrage - 5 (iamausername, ConSpiracy, Snake Eyes, Vordark, Ythan)
Ythan - 0
ConSpiracy - 1 (DarthYoshi)
TheBigLebowski - 1 (Krazy)
Snake Eyes - 1 (Umbrage)
Vordark - 1 (TheBigLebowski)
Quaroath - 0
Abelcain - 0
iamausername - 0
DarthYoshi - 1 (Quaroath)
No lynch - 0
Not voting: Xtoxm.

With 12 alive, 7 votes are required to lynch.

iamausername
ConSpiracy
Vordark
Ythan

You really think there isn't scum on my wagon? Do you mean then that each of the above is town? I asked you why you thought ConSpiracy was town a GAZILLION TIMES, and I still have not gotten an answer. WHY ARE THESE PEOPLE YOUR TOWN READS?

[Umbrage]

This sounds like you've already decided that TBL is scum with so little content from him.

Active lurking is scummy, no matter how you shake it. But how deep does the rabbit hole go?

Having a scumread =/= necessarily thinking you're scummy.

What is this I don't even

--> Although players should point out scummy behavior, observing false-positives and asserting them as null is still a position to take and a contribution to the town (although whether that's actually what was going on here is debateable).

Um, yeah, that's totally what I did.

[Umbrage]

--> Although players should point out scummy behavior, observing false-positives and asserting them as null is still a position to take and a contribution to the town (although whether that's actually what was going on here is debateable).

Um, yeah, that's totally what I did.

Sorry, would you mind clarifying if this is sarcasm or not? If you're disagreeing with my assessment I'd like to hear more.

That's pretty much accurate, but you made it sound more smart.

(Also at misquoting me as Ythan.)

All you people look alike to me.

[Umbrage]

Quaroath's opinion of me = WAH WAH I DONT LIK CAPZ

I agree with him on some things, not the case with others. But hey, that's life. I've no reason to think he's scum at the moment.

[Umbrage]

There was nothing in SE's posts that struck me as a "defense" of CS.

I don't want to get in the middle of this, but I really disagree here. Noticed how SE practically answered for CS when I questioned CS. I see nothing that would make SE be so certain CS' motives were pure when he asked me that question. I've asked him why before, and have received no answer.

Did you just miss this or what? What do you think of this response?

This ties in with what I was saying above. The quote in question is here:

There's little scum motivation to do so, but there is a pretty clear town motive.

This was before CS said why he voted and questioned me. He seemed to know what CS was thinking, which I didn't at that point, and I don't see how he could've. Basically, he assumed that CS' motives were town, when I had explicitly shown how they could be scummy. He says there was little reason to suspect the motives were scummy, but I had just outlined why they could've been. Even if he disagreed, he had to at least see why I would think that, so he should've at least acknowledged there was a possible scum motive. If he felt I was in error, then he could've argued why I was in error by disputing my reasoning.

CS, at that point, had not shown why his question was from a pro-town perspective, whereas I had argued why it was from an anti-town perspective. So why would he hold that CS was town and I was scum at that point? If he didn't see a scum motivation, that meant he either didn't understand my argument or considered it invalid. If he didn't understand it, he should've asked me to explain, and if he thought it was a bad argument, he should've shown why it was bad. But his attack on me is based on nothing but the fact that he considered CS town, and I can't understand why he would think that so early in the game.

[Umbrage]

Just out of interest, Vordark, why are you voting Umbrage over Yoshi again? Do try to keep your answer as brief as you can, if you don't mind.

cuz i wanna bandwagon

FTFY

[Umbrage]

@ Vordark:

So, let me get this straight.

You think DarthYoshi is scum.

You keep your vote on me.

DarthYoshi votes Xtoxm.

You immediately make a post that quotes Xtoxm, and asks for more content from him.

I smell bussing buddies.

FoS: DarthYoshi and Vordark

[Umbrage]

@ Vordark:

So, let me get this straight.

You think DarthYoshi is scum.

You keep your vote on me.

DarthYoshi votes Xtoxm.

You immediately make a post that quotes Xtoxm, and asks for more content from him.

I smell bussing buddies.

FoS: DarthYoshi and Vordark

You smell me doing several ISOs today (as I have already mentioned), posting as I complete them. I am not finished for today. Perhaps waiting until I

am

before attempting to analyze my posts would be a more productive use of your time?

Fuck. Of course. I need to learn to read.

[Umbrage]

So? If I argued that you asking the mod to replace Krazy and Ythan was because you were afraid that they would be able to out you as scum, does that mean that everyone should automatically assume that you're scum until you post to refute it? By your logic, if anyone other than you was to refute that post, I'd be able to declare that they were defending you because you hadn't shown why asking to get them replaced was from a pro-town perspective.

No, people are entitled to their own opinion. But if the reasons for that opinion are not obvious to everyone, they should state the reasons. Snake Eyes has avoided saying exactly why he considered ConSpiracy to be town, and why he considered me scummy. And he did consider me scummy at that point, that's not debatable. I don't care whether you call it a scumread, scumminess, scumdar, suspicion, FoS, or anything else, he found me scummy, and he found CS town. All I'm trying to figure out is WHY.

[Umbrage]

UNVOTE: TheBigLebowski

Hope everything works out for you.

[Umbrage]

@ iamausername: Brevity is good, yes. But quotes are your friend. Quote the things DarthYoshi said that make him scummy.

[Umbrage]

If/when I flip, you'll see how much of a junk science hunting for scumbuddies so early on D1 really is. Your bussing suspicion is off.

@ DarthYoshi: If you're referring to the connections I noted between CS and Snake Eyes, I have a town read on CS. I suppose that the two could be buddies, but Snake Eyes could simply be buddying CS for towncred, or to try and launch a wagon on me. The only thing about CS I find scummy is his connection with Snake Eyes, otherwise I find him town.

In short, Snake Eyes being scum does not make CS scum.

I'm going to try and ISO Vordark when I get some spare time. There's been something off about his play.

[Umbrage]

This is more evidence of the "defense". Again, I'm not seeing it. Umbrage says he doubt's CS's motives and SE is asking him why. If person A says "I think person B is scummy" and person C asks them why, is person C defending B? No.

Except that I explained why I considered CS' question to be scummy. Snake Eyes STILL hasn't given me a solid reason as to why he thought CS was town. If he said "Your argument is flawed, ergo you are scum, die!" then that would've been a valid attack. But "CS is town, ergo you are scum, die!" is a chainsaw defence.

This is another SE quote that has been isolated and misrepresented.

Mind explaining HOW it has been misrepresented? I didn't take anything out of context. I didn't change any wording. Point still stands until it is PROPERLY disproven.

[Umbrage]

Except that SE never said that CS was town. He said "I'm leaning slightly town on Conspiracy", which is a completely different statement. He also said this after you and DY had already started accusing him of defending CS, so trying to use it as part of your case at this point is absurd.

As to your second bit, you did not include include your original statement in the quote, you bolded one phrase and pointed at it calling it a scumslip. I'll also note that "not having a scumread on someone" is not the same thing as calling them town. As examples of taking a statement out of context and misrepresenting it, that's damned near perfect.

1. He was sure enough that CS was town to attack me for attacking him.

2. By that point he had to admit he had a townread on CS, note that he didn't say why he had a townread.

3. Those were the exact words he wrote. I didn't change a thing besides the bold. And yes, it's a scumslip. Unless you show me why it is not a scumslip, it's a scumslip.

4. You're mistaken. The slip doesn't prove he found CS town, it proves he found me scum. He said he wouldn't switch wagons to someone he didn't have a scumread on, which means that he was currently wagoning someone he did have a scumread on, which was me. So his whole "I was just trying to start a wagon to get us out of RVS" is bogus. Try reading next time. I made all that perfectly clear when I quoted him. Instead of accusing me of misrepresentation, try MAKING SURE YOU HAVE THE FACTS RIGHT. Jesus, this is Mafia 101 people.

Go find some real scumtells. This is a colossal waste of time and energy that I could spend looking for scum. If you rehash the same old arguments, I will simply quote this post in response, are we clear?

[Umbrage]

@ Umbrage: Is there anyone you haven't suspected yet?

No. Is there someone I shouldn't suspect?

Regarding Xtoxm: The whole point of making a neutral statement was to see if anyone would overreact to it and try and get a wagon on me.

Now, Snake Eyes is still a strong scumread of mine. But in my opinion, after reading over more carefully, Xtoxm is definitely the worst player here. I see DY, Vordark, and Abelcain as all town, the walls of text are mostly bullshit. But Xtoxm is all over the place. I can't make sense of his reads.

I'm not trying to appear active. If I was there would be a shit load of fluff. I have pretty much been giving my raw opinions and nothing else.

What you've been giving is a stream of consciousness. You've been going back and forth on players. You aren't contributing. Mafia isn't just finding who you think is scummy, it's convincing everyone of your reads. You aren't doing that.

I'll try to be more active now, the text walls kind of set me off this game.

[Umbrage]

This comment wouldn't be made if he was just trying to get out of the RVS. He states here that he found me scummy for my vote and not to provoke reactions. Also in the second quote he mentions that he really cares about not looking scummy. It is not really townish to think that way especially if that aren't the only things he could do.

1. Sure I found you scummy, for page one. I just wanted to know why you asked me that. I see no reason to disbelieve your answer.

2. I disagree, the way I see it, if I am seen as scummy, that will distract the town and force me to spend time defending myself. But we're arguing theory now.

This came right after CS explained his reasoning behind asking the question. I still think Umbrage let up a little too easily in this post, especially compared to how he acts arguing with the reasoning of other people later on

My only defence for this is that it was a page one read, and I saw no reason to disbelieve CS. I filed it away as a potentially scummy action of course, but as I didn't have enough to make a case, I let it drop for the meantime.

@Umbrage, for clarity's sake, was the vote on ConSpiracy a serious vote? Was it purely bait? Or was it some combination of the two?

I wanted to know why he asked the question to me. That's the way I scumhunt, I ask people questions, get reactions, and try and trip up the mafia. Even if I didn't want to pull the gambit, I would've questioned his motives. But I also wanted to move the game along, and a serious vote was the best way to do that.

So yeah, I'd say the vote was bait, but the reasoning behind it was serious.

@Umbrage, why did you forgive CS for his wagon so easily yet continue to attack Snake for the same thing when the first wagon was arguably being pushed even less than the second one was?

The reason I found Snake's wagon bad was because there was a better wagon available: CS'. I don't recall CS having that luxury. You make an interesting point though, I'll have to check on that.

I said I didn't think there was anything weird with CS's question either when you responded to this, so why did he only blame Snake for not thinking the question was suspicious?

It's fine to disagree with me. But attacking me because you disagree with me, when the motives for that attack aren't clear, that's scummy.

I would think that asking Umbrage a question that Umbrage felt was a set-up to make him look bad would have been a reason to disbelieve ConSpiracy.

Sure, it could've been a set-up. But I can't prove it, so I don't really see the point in speculation.

This I don't really get either. He says that his case on CS (that he made on page 1) died out, but having bad page one reads would make him look scummy. Wouldn't the now-dead case be considered the same thing?

Maybe, but at least there're my honest thoughts. I didn't want to say player X looks scummy on page one because it would feel like lying. And then I'd have to come up with reasons as to why X is scummy. Whereas I didn't need to lie for my case against CS.

@ Snake Eyes: I'm asking one more time: why did you find CS to be town at the start of the game?

[Umbrage]

I'll read over and reply in regards to the posts since my last one later tonight but for now I think we may have an effectively auto-win position. I know a great deal of mafiascum players despise speculating about the setup and claiming but I think doing so right now is our best bet.

Considering there's 9 town vs 3 mafia the days should progress as follows:

D1: 9 v 3 (End of, 8 v 3)
N2: 8 v 3 (End of 7 v 3)
D2: 7 v 3 (End of 6 v 3)
N3 6 v 3 (End of 5 v 3)
D4: Would be lylo.

This means that we have 2 msylnches + 1 no lynch opportunity. However, if tracker/vig chooses to be vig instead of tracker what it gives us is 2 Mslynches + 1 Vig shot.

With two mslynches it's highly unlikely that mafia will counter-claim a town power role meaning we should be able to attain 4 clears from mass-claiming. Assume that this is the case (Which I think it highly likely is), then there will be 8 VT claims, 3 being mafia 5 being town.

The only way we'd be able to lose is if we lynch/vig-shoot 4/5. Meaning just pure-odds wise we'd havea 60% chance of success ignoring scum-hunting and PR's night-actions added to it.

Therefore I would emphasis my recommendation that tracker/vig picks vig tonight and that we should mass-claim right now

YES LET'S LET THE SCUM KNOW NOT JUST WHAT POWER ROLES THERE ARE BUT WHO THEY ARE SO THEY KNOW EXACTLY WHO TO KILL. THAT IS A GREAT IDEA.

Or, we could focus on finding who the scum are, as opposed to the power roles.

Yeah, I like that idea better.

VOTE: Regfan

[Umbrage]

If that is a valid plan, this is a totally broken set-up. Since I do not believe this is a totally broken set-up, because it would have to have been seen by countless mods and players, this is not a valid plan.

[Umbrage]

Day 1 massclaim is always a bad idea, mainly because town cannot judge who is lying. Whereas if you wait a couple days, you can check the claim with vote analysis and other elements of the player's game. If we massclaim now, scum WILL counterclaim, be assured of that. And then it's absolute chaos. Scum love chaos. We have a total of THREE investigative roles, counting hider and hider tracker as one role, and assuming the tracker/vig chooses tracker. That is a lot. This is a very swingy set-up. All the PRs could get guilties on each of the scum N1: hider hides with scum1, tracker tracks scum2 who made the kill, psychologist investigates scum3. Game over. So let's at least wait until D2. Then, we'll know where we stand.

One final note: normally I consider it better to have a tracker than a vig, but there're a few lurkers here. Vigs are good for lurkers. Thoughts?

EDIT:

@ Abelcain: Here's an idea, we could all say who we would hide with before that night if we were the hider.

[Umbrage]

I suck at math, but if this setup could be broken by a D1 massclaim, no way it would have been approved.

[Umbrage]

Massclaims just brak the game and make them duller than dull. *shrug*

VOTE: Quaroath

There are plenty of reasons to be against a massclaim, but to be against it because it would be dull? Wait, ARE you against it? You don't state a definite opinion here. Want to be able to switch to either side, eh?

[Umbrage]

Argh, I've gotten too caught up with this TBL/xtoxm/Quaroath stuff. I'm going to make a big post at some point in time that outlines my case on Snake Eyes, because my arguments have been spread out all over the place. So if I don't post for a while, I'm working on that.

[Umbrage]

Awesome. Got it done while waiting for class to start.

Why Umbrage Thinks Snake Eyes is Scum:

Since it IS a very good place to start, let's start at the very beginning.

When I made voted ConSpiracy, I tried to make why as clear as possible.

Why me? As I said, I don't consider RVS means much in the way of scum versus town. I really don't think anyone can find scum on page one... You singled me out for a reason, but why would you ask for my thoughts when I said I find RVS meaningless?

Which I think explains my position clearly. However, when Snake Eyes voted me, this was his post:

OK, so my vote on ConSpiracy is about as serious as you can get for page 1 reads. Xtoxm stands out as odd to me, he didn't random vote, he didn't really say hello or anything, he just answered the questions. I'm not saying it's scum or town, it just looks odd.

Why is ConSpiracy asking you specifically a question a somewhat serious scumtell? What about it is more scummy than a person who is arguably not doing much to get the game out of RVS, and why point it out if it's not scummy?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Umbrage

I find a few faults in this post. For one, he more or less says that I should find xtoxm more scummy than ConSpiracy because he's not getting out of RVS, which is weird. But more to the point, he says he doesn't know my reasons for voting CS, although I outlined them in my previous post. Apparently, he didn't see that post, or it didn't grab his attention. Which means that it was likely my saying that the vote was serious that triggered this response, since that is what he quoted and to what he responded. It wasn't the vote itself; it was his knowing that there was a serious vote that made him vote me.

If he truly didn't understand my reasoning, then why did he vote me at this point? The logical thing to do if you don't understand someone's reasoning is to ask them to explain, not assume the reasoning is scummy and vote them.

Snake Eyes later tries to cover his tracks by claiming that this vote on me was simply to get a wagon started. This would explain why he voted without knowing my reasoning, as well as his apathy for said reasoning. However there are a few holes in this story. Firstly, why would he bandwagon me? CS was the better choice, simply because he already had a serious vote on him, mine. I explicitly said that it was serious, and clearly Snake Eyes saw that the vote was serious, as he quoted me saying so. Now, if he was really trying to get out of RVS via a wagon, voting CS would be the logical step, since he already had a serious vote, the wagon was serious, and not a joke RVS one. What's more, he would've likely noticed that I was trying to do the same thing to CS. A wagon is stronger when it has more than one person pushing the wagon. I was already pushing hard on CS. Why didn't he just join up with me? By wagoning me and not CS, he makes it clear that

he knew CS was trying to get out of RVS, but he didn't know I was doing the same, even though I explicitly said my vote on CS was serious

.

It's less scummy to join a bandwagon on someone I don't have a scumread on, than it is to pressure you after you've made a questionable post, and then push a wagon on you when I do have a scumread on you?

In this bit, he inadvertently reveals that he did find me scummy at the time of his vote, so the claim that it was to get out of RVS was a lie. Watch:

It's less scummy to join a bandwagon on ConSpiracy, than it is to pressure you?

That's a shortened version of the above quote I made for clarity's sake. The person he didn't have a scumread on was ConSpiracy.

It's clear the point he was making was that since he didn't have a scumread on CS, it was better for him to pressure me. But he said he didn't find me scummy at that point, so he was wagoning someone he didn't have a scumread on anyway. Why then, would he say CS was a poorer wagon because he didn't have a scumread on him? By saying that his lack of a scumread on CS influenced his decision to wagon me, he admits that he wouldn't bandwagon someone he didn't have a scumread on, and yet he maintains he didn't have a scum read on me.

And for bonus scumpoints, we have the attitude towards CS. He said he found CS town at the start of the game. When I asked him why, he insisted this was the reason:

It looked like an attempt to move the game into something more meaningful than RVS, in a way that was likely to bring attention to him. There's little scum motivation to do so, but there is a pretty clear town motive.

I don't see why scum would not want to move the game past RVS. In fact, the faster we're out of RVS, the faster a lynch will happen, and scum want fast lynches. So if anything, wanting to move the game past RVS is a scumtell.

TL; DR: Snake Eyes is lying scum. He contradicts himself. His play shows a relationship with CS, either they are both scum, or Snake Eyes is trying to buddy him.

[Umbrage]

I just escaped from a Reck/Dram/Kise meet. Catching up.

You poor thing.

[Umbrage]

And here's why. You jumped on some player, not even the first one to do what you accused him of, when your vote should clearly be elsewhere.

Uh, did you even read my case?

Where did I claim that the vote on you was just to get a wagon started?

We will never get anywhere without bandwagons. The whole idea of a premature bandwagon is a fallacy. Why are you drawing an arbitrary line between what I'm doing and what you're doing? Is it because you want it to be scummy when I do it, and not when you do it?

pressure you after you've made a questionable post, and then push a wagon on you when I do have a scumread on you?

Can we lynch this scum already?

Also, I didn't know why your vote on CS was "serious" as you put it. Yes, you had given some reasons for your vote on CS on an earlier post, but when you say your vote is "serious", the usual implication is that the person you are talking about is really, really scummy.

OK, so my vote on ConSpiracy is about as serious

as you can get for page 1 reads

.

For Pete's sake, you quoted that line.

All this just proves my point: you did not fine my VOTE on CS to be scummy. You saw someone make a SERIOUS vote in RVS and thought: "Hey, that would make an excellent wagon!" Now, you JUST SAID that you did not wagon me to get out of RVS. You ALSO said that you did NOT find me scummy at that time! Which means that there is NO excusable motive for wagoning me. NONE. Either you were watching out for your buddies ConSpiracy and xtoxm, or you were looking for a good wagon. EITHER WAY YOU ARE SCUM. EITHER WAY YOU NEED TO DIE.

Oh, and I'm not sure what you mean by the happy face, but I'm interpreting it as "I can't respond to this so I'm going to laugh and hope nobody notices".

You do raise one good point though. My vote. I had completely forgotten about it.

VOTE: Snake Eyes

[Umbrage]

@ Umbrage: Your case sucks as hell. Please stop the tunneling.

OH OK I'LL DO THAT BECAUSE YOU'VE TOTALLY CONVINCED ME WITH YOUR BRILLIANT ARGUMENTS AND SHOT DOWN MY TWO PAGE ESSAY WITH YOUR ONE SENTENCE PLEASE LET'S HAVE MORE WISDOM FROM YOU.

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR..................................................................................................................

MAYBE YOU DON'T LIKE THE FACT THAT I'M ATTACKING SNAKE EYES. HMMMMMM.............. LET'S SEE............. SNAKE EYES DEFENDS CONSPIRACY.............................. CONSPIRACY DEFENDS SNAKE EYES..................................... COULD THERE BE A CONNECTION??????????????????????????????????????????????

[Umbrage]

I still think Snake Eyes is scum and will continue to think so until someone says something more convincing than 'u suck lol'. I will ISO ConSpiracy next.

[Umbrage]

Umbrage, the problem with your case is that you are interpreting Snake asking QUESTIONS like "why is what ConSpiracy did scummy?" and "Why isn't what Xtoxm did more scummy?" as Snake going "GRRRRRRAAAAAGAHGH UMBRAGE YOU SUCCCCCKK!K!!!!! DIE DIE DIE!!!!!!" just because he also voted you when he asked them. Which he obviously did because it was page fuckin' two, and he did not have anything better to go on.

Are you high? Or did you just not read my posts?

And then I think you're accusing him of contradicting himself because at one point he said he found you scummy, but at another point he said he didn't? Or something like that? Do you know that reads can change?

You "think"? Why don't you try READING and figure my case out for yourself. It's all there in simple English.

I think a laughing emoticon was an entirely appropriate response to "I don't see why scum would not want to move the game past RVS. In fact, the faster we're out of RVS, the faster a lynch will happen, and scum want fast lynches. So if anything, wanting to move the game past RVS is a scumtell."
If you can't see the flaw in that argument you should probably just not play Mafia, to be perfectly frank.

I do see the flaw. That's the whole point: Snake Eyes made a flawed argument. Thus, he is scum. You come so close to understanding, but clarity still eludes you.

[Umbrage]

I think a laughing emoticon was an entirely appropriate response to "I don't see why scum would not want to move the game past RVS. In fact, the faster we're out of RVS, the faster a lynch will happen, and scum want fast lynches. So if anything, wanting to move the game past RVS is a scumtell."
If you can't see the flaw in that argument you should probably just not play Mafia, to be perfectly frank.

I do see the flaw. That's the whole point: Snake Eyes made a flawed argument. Thus, he is scum. You come so close to understanding, but clarity still eludes you.

what what what

YOU made that argument. You. It was in your post. I saw it.

Try again. Snake Eyes was assuming that wanting to move out of RVS is a town-tell. This is stupid. I showed how it could be a scum-tell. That was stupid. The truth? It's a null-tell. Since you seem incapable of reading anything beyond a small paragraph, I will spell it out for you:

Snake Eyes thought ConSpiracy was town. He did not have a good reason to think ConSpiracy was town.

Understand now?

[Umbrage]

Honestly, I don't know. ConSpiracy is the most obvious link, but outside of their connection I think CS is town. It's possible that when the scum see their partner get attacked so early, they start bussing him. So I don't trust linking tells. Otherwise, I have slight scumreads on Quaroath and Vordark.

[Umbrage]

Flawed arguments that have a clear scum motive are a scumtell. It would be good for scum to find CS town, so they could buddy up to him and get me lynched.

[Umbrage]

Flawed arguments are indeed a scum-tell but that doesn't mean they always indicate mafia, especially when the 'flawed argument' is something that's based of the end of the RVS period.

Flawed arguments that have a clear scum motive are a scumtell. It would be good for scum to find CS town, so they could buddy up to him and get me lynched.

[Umbrage]

...clear scum motive... ...get me lynched.

Ladies and gentlemen; Umbrage.

Why else would he want me lynched? Even if I was scum, how would he know it at that time? And why did he think CS was town?

[Umbrage]

Come on, I asked you something similar about CS's wagon on you and Snake's wagon on you and you had no problem with answering me.

Don't recall that... but the only reason I said something about xtoxm was to see who tried to find it scummy. Because there really was no reason for me to say that. So it's not scummy. But Snake Eyes tried to make it seem that way.

1) Presumably, if he was town who thought you were scum, he would want you lynched.

On page 1?

2) Scum are not out to get you, specifically. There are 9 town players in this game. Scum could be trying to lynch any one of those players. Why do you assume they're trying to lynch you?

Because I specifically arranged it that way with my vote on CS.

3) He's not even voting for you any more anyway. What makes you think he does want you lynched?

I am talking about how he seemed SO CERTAIN I was scum earlier in the game. Really. If you're going to debate me, try to keep up.

Because CS was attempting to push the game past random voting into serious scumhunting, thus seemingly advancing a town win condition.

Nope. Try again. I already showed that trying to get out of RVS is not a towntell. So why did he find CS town? I still haven't found a valid answer for this.

Post on Vordark coming soon.

[Umbrage]

In that case, I revise my question to "What makes you think Snake Eyes was trying to lynch you back then?"

Because all the other reasons don't hold up. He's said he wasn't bandwagoning to get of RVS, but he's denied he had a scumread on me. I set myself up as an easy lynch target, and he pushed for my lynch.

So you think you managed to do something that townies would clearly see as not scummy, but scum would mistakenly believe was scummy, so the only people attacking you would be scum? Is that what you're saying?

I wanted reactions. I got one.

No you didn't. You gave a ludicrous explanation for how it could be a scumtell, then said "my reason to call it a scumtell was stupid, therefore it's a nulltell."

Then prove how it is a towntell.

Whether or not you think it's a towntell, that's it. That's the reason Snake found CS town. You rejecting that reason is not going to change the answer. The answer to the question of "why did Snake find CS town?" is that CS was attempting to push the game past random voting, and it will always be that CS was attempting to push the game past random voting, no matter how many times you repeat the question. No matter how many times you repeat the question, that will be the answer. That is the answer. That's the only answer you'll get. That's it. That's the reason. The reason that Snake found CS town is that. That will be the answer to your question, no matter how many times you repeat it. No matter how many times you repeat it, the answer will be that.

OK, let's say you're right. Then answer me this:

Why did Snake Eyes know that CS was trying to get out of RVS by voting me, but he didn't know I was trying to get out of RVS by voting CS?

[Umbrage]

So, uh, same old going on here I see. Umbrage's case on me is still dumb as hell, DarthYoshi is still scum and just about everyone in the game is catching up.

Nothing to say except iamausername's #381 is a good summary on DarthYoshi everyone should take a look at.

P.S. If anyone's wondering why I'm not answering any of Umbrage's questions, it's because they seem like the same old misrepresentions or misleading questions that I've already answered one way or another.

'K, well if you don't say anything new, I'm not changing my opinion of you.

[Umbrage]

13 - From iamusername. Something about this vote bugs me. RVS of someone with a vote already on them seems strange.

RANDOM voting stage. If you only vote people who don't have a vote on them, it's not random, is it?

Not actively moving to get us out of RVS might not be a scum tell, but people doing so are more pro-town.

The question "why the need to exit us out of RVS" doesn't vibe as town at all to me. The sooner we're out of RVS and into discussion and debate, the better. Anything that moves us along in that regard is better and I can't think why someone town would disagree.

Here we go again. Why is it more pro-town to try and exit RVS quickly?

The "Hunting for scumpairs before there have been any flips is junk science" comment is strange as well. SE is talking about what happens "should Umbrage flip scum". It is also natural, and necessary, to look for relationships between the players as early as possible.

Noting relationships is different from hunting scumpairs. This is a really bad post. It appears to be deliberate misrepresentation.

Except that SE never said that CS was town. He said "I'm leaning slightly town on Conspiracy", which is a completely different statement.

Quibbling semantics. Defending SE.

This is yet more criticism based solely on what I've posted and who I've chosen to post about.

...

What are we supposed to criticize?

The phrase "singled me out" generally rubs me the wrong way. That choice of words implied victimization. Subtle words choices like this tend to jump out at me.

My sister flips out if she hears someone say 'perturbed'. Certain words mean certain things to us, but attributing those to my arguments is just bad play.

[Umbrage]

'K, well if you don't say anything new, I'm not changing my opinion of you.

Don't really care about your opinion of me.

I will say something new as soon as I have something relevant to say, which is, when people start posting again and comment on DarthYoshi. This includes you btw.

In other words, you're going to ignore whatever it is we're discussing until your bandwagon gains some momentum?

Why are you still alive?

[Umbrage]

Wait, xtoxm claimed VT? Shit. He needs to die now. If he lives, it's just easier for a PR to die. Mafia love keeping claimed VTs alive.

VOTE: xtoxm

...stuff...

FoS: Umbrage

Nearly every one of your posts is useless caps rage, while the few that have a reasonable tone aren't offering much of anything but continuing to tunnel SE for the weakest of reasons and claiming anyone that disagrees with you is "defending SE" and probably scum. And with half of this post looking like a thinly-veiled chainsaw for DY, I'm going with you being scum #2 as opposed to just failtown.

That's funny. I've been doing caps and focusing on SE for quite a while now, but you only notice it after I make a post on you? Huh. Interesting.

[Umbrage]

Wait, xtoxm claimed VT? Shit. He needs to die now. If he lives, it's just easier for a PR to die. Mafia love keeping claimed VTs alive.

VOTE: xtoxm

I, for one, am shocked.

Shocked

I say.

That's funny. I've been doing caps and focusing on SE for quite a while now, but you only notice it after I make a post on you? Huh. Interesting.

Are you high?

Let me see... sarcasm and a personal attack. Yep, I'd say I've found scum.

[Umbrage]

Anecdotal evidence has no place in a game of Mafia. Or, to put it the way you would in your allcaps exaggerations: "WELL IF YOUR SISTER IS BOTHERED BY CERTAIN WORDS FOR NO GOOD REASON THAT MEANS THERE'S NO GOOD REASON ANYBODY COULD EVER BE BOTHERED BY THE WAY SOMEONE WRITES ANYTHING RIGHT? ESPECIALLY IN TEXT-BASED FORMAT LIKE MAFIA!"

Certain words mean certain things to us, but attributing those to my arguments is just bad play.

Did you even bother to read the whole quote? Or were you just LOLZ ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE I CAN POST IN CAPS TO!!11?

I honestly can't tell if this is supposed to be sarcastic or not.

Not sarcastic. We have to kill xtoxm. These are the problems with him being alive:

1) We run the risk of outing a PR if we decide to lynch someone else.
2) The mafia have one less potential PR out there, making it more likely that they will hit a PR.
3) However, we have the exact same chance of hitting a scum tomorrow. If xtoxm was dead, then at least our chances of hitting scum would improve with their chances of hitting us.
4) Most of next day will revolve over whether or not we made the right decision keeping him alive.

Umbrage, like several other players, I have a VERY SLIGHT townread on you, but posts like this are seriously bothering me. Again and again you make a not-totally-empty but still weak as hell case against someone and then say YOU NEED TO DIE! It's like, even if I sort of agree with you, the cases you've been making just aren't really all that damning.

Saying my case is weak doesn't help any of us. Show why my case is weak.

Lol @ the people calling me scum for claiming vanilla townie. (Good place to start looking for scum tomorrow.)

You were obviously never going lynch to claimed power role, and scum were never going to claim anything but a power role on day 1. So basically what you wanted was a vanilla townie to offer himself as the day 1 sacrifice. So here I am, you've found your sacrifice. I don't get to experience the actual play of this setup...The greater good, and what not.

Good luck.

Iam, I was bothering before, but there is no point anymore. I was clearly widely suspected and going to be lynched at some point anyway. It is better to be mislynched earlier rather than later. At any rate, the moment I claimed I put a death sentence on myself. I have given my input for the day, that is all I can do. I have said that DarthYoshi is my top suspect, followed by Abelcain. Not that this means anything.

I have never ever ever ever seen a townie act like this when getting lynched. "Not that this means anything"? You still have a pretty good chance at winning, dude! Why the apathy?

I was wavering on xtoxm before, but these posts seal the deal for me. He's scum. Let's roll.

[Umbrage]

xtoxm's profile says he's been here since 2007. I understand this play coming from a newbie, but an experienced player? I don't buy it. He was way too quick to claim. And when they are being lynched, town try to find the scum on their wagons.

[Umbrage]

While I do agree with the rest of your points here on why town-Xtoxm's claim puts the town in danger, I just want to make sure that you also realize that

by deciding to lynch him today we are reducing our chances of lynching scum today to zero

(assuming he's not scum himself), so take that into account when you also give reasons showing the scum chance of getting a PR.

...

What...

That's a scumclaim. How else would you know xtoxm would flip town?

VOTE: Abelcain

xtoxm can wait. Lynching claimed scum D1 trumps any other strategy.

[Umbrage]

While I do agree with the rest of your points here on why town-Xtoxm's claim puts the town in danger, I just want to make sure that you also realize that

by deciding to lynch him today we are reducing our chances of lynching scum today to zero

(assuming he's not scum himself), so take that into account when you also give reasons showing the scum chance of getting a PR.

...

What...

That's a scumclaim. How else would you know xtoxm would flip town?

VOTE: Abelcain

xtoxm can wait. Lynching claimed scum D1 trumps any other strategy.

This is still the worst thing anyone's said this game. I can't see any way Abelcain could be town with this post.

[Umbrage]

I was replying to your four reasons why Xtoxm has to die if he's town. He obviously has to die if he's Mafia anyway, but you listed four reasons that he had to die if he's town, and I was pointing out that one of them says we have a better chance of hitting scum tomorrow, but only if we assume that Xotxm is town, which means we have a zero percent chance of catching scum.

I never assumed xtoxm was town. I don't know how the hell you can think that from my posts. You are assuming that. Why?

Umbrage is apparently pushing some case and yet again and again he goes off on a dubious interpretation of a single post to ignore his suspect and hop on someone else.

This. I hate all this vote-hopping. Everyone stop acting scummy so I don't have to keep changing suspects.

[Umbrage]

That's not going to cut it. You aren't acting like you really have a suspect.

Uh-Huh. And what do you call my case on Snake Eyes? I'd still be on him if xtoxm hadn't claimed and screwed the town.

[Umbrage]

Fun facts:
- if xtoxm is scum, his claim obviously doesn't screw the town
- so you just made the exact same assumption that you attacked abelcain for
- if xtoxm is town, his claim doesn't actually screw the town anyway, but that's neither here nor there

And......... nope. Try again.

1) If he is scum, by giving up quickly he ensures we get no information whatsoever from his flip.
2) See number 1.
3) I already made a post outlining why the claim was a stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid move as town. I don't feel like repeating myself.

[Umbrage]

I thought Umbrage might be scummy because of scumhunting mostly on SE while keeping his vote safely tucked away on Quaraoth.

Following that logic, aren't you scumhunting mostly on AC while keeping your vote safely tucked away on xtoxm?

[Umbrage]

You're dodging. I don't care about what you're saying about him, except that for a case you care so much about you seem to drop it pretty quick. Repeatedly.

Now YOU'RE dodging. Or not reading. Snake Eyes is my strongest scum read. But that doesn't change the fact that xtoxm should be the lynch today. At least he would be if Abelcain hadn't outed himself.

Two of your points here, number two and number three, both only apply if Xtoxm is town. If he's scum, there is absolutely no way that his claim removes a potential PR from their list (because the mafia already knew he wasn't really scum). Also, if he's scum then killing him now in no way improves our ability to hit scum tomorrow - in fact, it makes it less likely we'll hit scum as opposed to town tomorrow because we'd have two mafia out of ten players instead of three mafia out of ten players. Therefore, your points two and three only apply if we already assume that Xtoxm as town. And the part of my post you quoted as a "scumclaim" was a direct response to those points (I even quoted point number three in that post).

1: That post was to explain why xtoxm has to be lynched, regardless of your individual feelings on his alignment.

2: Lynching scum is better than lynching town, regardless of odds. Lynching claimed VTs increases odds of lynching scum. This is a mathematically proven fact.

So far today he's voted and said the following people are mafia:
-Xotxm
-ConSpiracy
-Snake Eyes
-Quaroath
-Abelcain
-Regfan

Perhaps more than that even, yet he doesn't explain reasoning for unvoting each person in particular and instead fabricates a case against another person. Unvotes, then votes the new person while yelling how obvious it is that they're mafia. Essentially he has refused to maintain a lead suspect throughout the past few days(With the exception of SnakeEyes) which he hasn't voted in quite some time now.

You're reaching. I've already explained my vote on CS. My votes on you and Quaroath were to try and get you to participate. To say that I think you all are scum is a blatant misrepresentation, and it strikes me as intentional.

This is crazy. I don’t get how you read what Abel posted as a scum-claim. This feels like scum-reaching.

Do you seriously not see it? He let slip that he knew xtoxm's alignment!

Neither did he, he even said “I just want to make sure that you also realize that by deciding to lynch him today we are reducing our chances of lynching scum today to zero (assuming he's not scum himself)”
I’m pretty sure that if we lynch xtomx there is a 100% chance we lynch a townie or a scum. If we lynch xtomx and he’s town.. I’m pretty sure there is a 0% chance on lynching scum today.

Why would he assume xtoxm is town, though? Why would he say it like that? Because by lynching him, we most certainly are NOT reducing our chances of lynching scum to 0. So why would he say that?

This post is bad bad bad. You drop every case you have for a shiny coin.

I say again: STOP ACTING SCUMMY! I can't keep up! This is not a contest where the scummiest player gets a prize and a hug.

Assume for a moment xtomx is town. Now, you play the part of xtomx:
Now, ask yourself, what would you claim as a townie, at L-1 and about to be mislynched?
1. “Hi, I’m scum, lynch me”,
2. “Hi I’m a town PR”,
3. “Hi, I’m Vanilla Townie”
Those are the three options, which one would you have him take?

And you drop your hard earned case against CS for a claim that was forced and was the only claim, no matter what role xtomx had, he could make? That’s crap.

That's bullshit.

1: xtoxm wasn't even close to being lynched. And the main thing people disliked about him was his inactivity. He could've easily picked up his posting and survive. But he gave up.

2: It is a mathematically proven fact that leaving claimed VTs alive hurts the town. I've already explained why.

3: Why do you assume I've dropped my case on SE? The case still stands, but he's started lurking, so there's not really anything else I can add to it. Just because I'm not bringing it up in every post doesn't mean I've forgotten it.

Umbrage: Every post he makes is increasingly giving me the impression of "vig-bait." He's incredibly reactionary, which combined with his ragecapsing earlier seems to have basically given him a license to say whatever he wants because no one takes him seriously anymore. Short of Xtoxm who has basically given up, Umbrage is easily the most anti-town (as in not helping town interests, not sure I'm using that term right) player in the game, short of actually being scum. Still, in a game that COULD have a vigilante, I seriously wonder whether scum would be this trollish. I keep leaning town on him just because of this, but since it seems hard now to hold him accountable for the sensibility of his posts, he is still a high threat. My gut says green, but my head says red.

No. Shut up. You don't have the fucking right to criticize my play after the shit you pulled with Ythan. I was scumhunting while you were whining and spamming the thread. If one of the active, pro-town members of this game have some criticism, I'll gladly accept it. But's it's really hypocritical coming from you.

[Umbrage]

It wasn't a slip in the first place(because he was responding to your points and you just took it out of context and tried to twist it to a scumslip) but this sure is. The only person here who seems to know xtoxm's alignment is you. Shouldn't this sort of accusation come after we actually know if xtoxm is town or not?

Where did I say xtoxm was town? I think he is scum. Granted, not as strongly as I think you're scum, but you haven't claimed yet.

This is second time I've said this, so I think I'll make it clear:

I think xtoxm is scum. I don't know why people think I said he is town.

Deadline is in a little over a day, so it's probably going to have to be xtoxm. He's a claimed vanilla who's not even trying to defend himself. He could be replaced because he seems to have quit the game, but I see little point in making the mod go through the hassle when it's pretty much a doomed slot and we're close to the deadline. I'll hammer him in about 24 hours if necessary, don't want to deadline to a no lynch.

This is my logic! You agree with me! So why do you consider my opinion of xtoxm scummy?

Oh wait, I see the difference. I've actually expressed real suspicion of xtoxm, so if he should flip town, I'd be under suspicion. Whereas you are not saying he is scum, therefore no blame can come to you. Hm. Interesting.

[Umbrage]

So why have I not been lynched yet? I'm sick of skimming the new posts and being called scum all the time. Lynch me and be done with it, and try to get it right next time.

Fine, fuck it. It's posts like this that make me want you dead. Instead of trying to help the town by finding scum, you whine and play the martyr.

One thing though: Don't blame us. If you really are town, know that you got yourself lynched through your own play. It's because of YOU. You've lurked through your entire stay here. When just the slightest bit of pressure came your way, you claimed, ENSURING YOUR DEATH.

UNDERSTAND? ONCE YOU CLAIMED, WE HAD NO CHOICE.

But you STILL could've convinced us to let you live, if you had tried. If you scumhunted. If you did ANYTHING but whine about how we were mislynching you, and complain that we weren't doing it fast enough. But no, you continued to be useless.

I expect this kind of shit from a newbie. Not someone who's been here as long as you have. You haven't even been playing this game, not really. You haven't done a single thing to help the town. I don't know why the hell you even signed up.

The only reason I'm so sure you are scum is because NO TOWNIE WOULD LET THEMSELVES DIE LIKE THAT. If you are town, you've done more to help the scum that you could've with a town PM.

So if you are town, don't come back here after the game with some "I TOLD U I WAZ TOWN LULZ" bullshit. You screwed up. You got yourself lynched. You.

VOTE: Xtoxm

Now somebody hammer already.

[Umbrage]

Xtoxm, on my second game here, I replaced a cop that was at L-1, and everyone was just waiting for someone to hammer. I fought tooth and nail to turn the wagon around, and ended up lynching scum. Being at L-2 does not mean you will surely be lynched. And it certainly does not give you an excuse to give up scumhunting. Even if you were lynched, we could've used your scumreads on day 2. And a mislynch is NEVER OK. You know you are town, so your lynch is about the worst thing that could happen. Giving up is extremely poor play. No way around it.

[Umbrage]

You're dodging. I don't care about what you're saying about him, except that for a case you care so much about you seem to drop it pretty quick. Repeatedly.

Now YOU'RE dodging. Or not reading. Snake Eyes is my strongest scum read. But that doesn't change the fact that xtoxm should be the lynch today. At least he would be if Abelcain hadn't outed himself.

What the fuck are you talking about. Is any of this post even true?

(This is the part where you start ignoring everything I say and start shouting UMBRAGE IS SCUM in the hopes someone believes you.)

[Umbrage]

Being a power role is a different situation entirely. I would have fought a lot harder had I been anything other than vanilla.

OK, so now you're saying that VTs have nothing to contribute to the game?

[Umbrage]

That still doesn't excuse you from not scumhunting.

[Umbrage]

Xtoxm, you are more active dead than alive. That alone should tell you something.

I can understand getting fed up with the game and not caring anymore. But to be satisfied with that as your play? I'd hate to see what you consider a bad game.

[Umbrage]

... should someone prod the mod?

[Umbrage]

Wait.... what? How is that even possible?

Hider behind Quaroth, CS shoots Quaroth, and then Quaroth shoots CS?

That right?

And.......... how would you know that? The hider could've hid with CS or Q. Or one of the other scum who's still alive.

Don't speculate. This is why we have a hider tracker.

[Umbrage]

And who Iaaun hid behind is sort of irrelevant

...

What?

If the hider tracker shows up with a name other than Q or CS, we have confirmed scum. How in the world is that irrelevant?

I need to re-read with these flips in mind, but I'll VOTE: Krazy for now. In his first post of the day he starts guessing at the night actions, including who iam hid behind. Then he says it doesn't matter who iam hid behind. Then he says he doesn't even know how the hiding mechanic works. Something is screwy here. Right now the scum are shitting their pants wondering if one of them is caught. Obviously, they're going to do everything they can to stop the hider tracker from claiming today. I read Krazy's play as scum trying to stop discussion on the hider's target before it begins.

[Umbrage]

I still suspect Abelcain knew xtoxm's alignment before he flipped. He said we were 'reducing our chances of hitting scum to 0', then he tacked on 'unless xtoxm is scum'. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but damn it, I don't see any other explanation, and I can't imagine why a townie would say that.

I need sleep. More tomorrow.

[Umbrage]

What the fuck?

OK, first off: FLIPS ARE IMPORTANT. They are our only source of reliable information other than our role PMs. When different players are confirmed scum or town, it has to affect the way the thread is viewed.

"BUT UMBRAGE, THE MAFIA ARE CAREFUL NOT TO MAKE ANY CONNECTIONS BETWEEN EACH OTHER!11"

No scum team is perfect. They will treat their partners differently from how they treat townies. They can't help it. It's the way the human brain works.

Secondly, we are headed for a repeat of day 1. Everyone so far has simply posted their suspects from day 1. Krazy thinks Ythan is scummy. Ythan thinks I'm scummy. Vordark thinks DarthYoshi is scummy. It's the exact same fucking thing.

Everyone needs to re-read with the flips in mind. Only then can we all get a clear picture of the dynamics in the game.

Wow, alright a lot happened in that night. I'm going to need to re-read Quaroths lines later. I've got to do a few massive catch-ups in other games today but should have a post up by tommorow afternoon. I've got a few questions for everyone to answer while I catch up:

1) Do you think Iamusername hid behind mafia or vig?
2) Does Quaroths scumflip make you think anyone is more lilely to be town/mafia?
3) Who's your largest suspect as of now?

1) This question is bullshit. Either he hid behind one of the dead players, or he hid behind someone who's still alive. Which means that either the mafia are in the clear, or they are totally screwed. So there's no point to having everyone speculate on this. The mafia are either done for or safe.
2) Now this question is a good one. I'll get to it when I finish re-reading.
3) Undecided.

[Umbrage]

Honestly, my impression of Vordark/DarthYoshi is town on town. But I'll read it again to make sure.

Both DY and AC need to get their asses in here. If neither of them claims HT, then iam must've hid behind either CS or Q, and we have no more info.

Question: Should the hider tracker claim today even if there is no information on scum? That will give us a confirmed townie for today, and give scum the WIFOM option of either trying to kill the last PR or the confirmed VT. If we wait, there's a chance the HT would be killed and we'll lose our chance at a lynch with confirmed town. Thoughts?

[Umbrage]

But if the HT claims, then not only will be have a confirmed townie for today's lynch, but the HT will be likely be targeted for the night kill, meaning that the Psych/Det is guaranteed safe another night. If the scum kill someone else, then we have a confirmed townie for tomorrow as well.

Whereas if the HT doesn't claim, it could be killed tonight, and we'd lose the chance to have a confirmed townie.

Since the HT now has no powers, I don't see the harm in sacrificing. We gain a confirmed townie for today, and lose nobody important tonight.

[Umbrage]

But if the HT claims, then not only will be have a confirmed townie for today's lynch, but the HT will be likely be targeted for the night kill, meaning that the Psych/Det is guaranteed safe another night. If the scum kill someone else, then we have a confirmed townie for tomorrow as well.

I don't understand why the HT would be targeted for an NK. With the hider dead, the HT is a VT for all practical purposes. By targeting them they reduce the chance of hitting a PR to zero.

I think the HT should claim if he has a name that isn't among the dead. I think the HT should

not

claim otherwise. Keeping the HT in the pool means

less

of a chance of the Mafia hitting a PR tonight.

But if they leave the HT alive, we have a confirmed townie for tomorrow's lynch as well. We win either way.

@ Krazy: You had a posting war with Ythan at the start of the game, and tunneled on him for most of day 1. I simply can't take your case on him seriously now. You could have found scum, but I can't be convinced. You've simply been pushing this lynch from your very first post. You've been pushing it before Ythan even showed up. So I think it's far more likely you're letting your own agenda take over. You said that Q didn't mention Regfan either, but you don't focus on Regfan. You focus on the person you've been focusing on all game. You might honestly think you've found scum, but I can't take your position seriously.

[Umbrage]

Reasoning for having the hider tracker claim today:

or

Why Umbrage is right and everyone else is wrong:

If the Hider Tracker claims today:

- Today's lynch will have a higher chance of hitting scum because there will be a confirmed townie.
- Scum will have to kill the Hider Tracker tonight, meaning that the Psych/Det is safe another night.
- If scum chose not to kill the Hider Tracker, then we will have a confirmed townie alive for tomorrow's lynch as well, again meaning we have a higher chance of hitting scum.

Whether or not the scum kill the Hider Tracker tonight, we benefit.

If the Hider Tracker does not claim today:

- The Hider Tracker could be killed tonight, meaning we lose our chance at having a confirmed townie for the rest of the game.
- If the Psych/Det claims he'll be killed that night and we'll lose our last PR, whereas the Hider Tracker has no powers and is thus expendable.
- If the Hider Tracker claims in lylo, the scum will counter-claim, and we won't get our confirmed townie. If we mislynch then, it's game over.

So if we want a free confirmed townie, it has to be today.

This message has been brought to you by Logic Inc.

[Umbrage]

@ Abelcain: Voting no-lynch today is wasting a lynch. Town never no-lynch, except in special cases. Don't ask me to back this up, it's standard theory. I think 95% of the site would agree with me on this. +scumpoints for you.

@ Ythan: Saying that the HT would waste the claim d2 is silly. We don't know how much longer the HT will be alive. By not claiming, we run the risk that we will lose the chance forever. Also, the HT claiming today GUARANTEES either a safe night for the Psych/Det or another lynch with a confirmed townie.

THERE IS NO DOWNSIDE TO MY PLAN. THIS ISN'T A REGFANESQE '60% chance of winning' BULLSHIT MATH PROBLEM. THIS IS NOT MATH. IT'S LOGIC AND PSYCHOLOGY.

What if DarthYoshi is the HT? All these walls of text about him will go to waste. There is no point in guessing at the mafia until we have a claim. Anything else is a waste of time.

[Umbrage]

Umbrage, actually the more scumhunting we do before a claim, the more information we may gain as a result of that claim.

No. There is nothing we can do now that we would not be able to do after the claim. And there is no point in pushing a lynch on someone only to have them claim HT, that would do nothing but waste time.

Furthermore, you're saying that it's all psychology and logic, and then saying that it's pointless to do anything other than claim. Isn't the point you're saying there is to claiming that the claim will help us scumhunt, which you apparently are saying we shouldn't do until there is a claim.

I'm saying we have a choice. Scumhunt when there are 8 unconfirmeds, or scumhunt when there are 7 unconfirmeds. This is a no-brainer. This is Mafia 101. Either we waste time arguing about whether player X is scum, or we know without a doubt that player X is scum. Which one do you think is pro-town?

But back to the main point, Umbrage, you seem to be putting a lot of emphasis on the benefits of having a confirmed townie. Xtoxm, CS, and IAmAUserName are three confirmed townies. If you follow their remaining FoSes, shouldn't you be voting DarthYoshi or something based on IAmAUserName's case? What "chance" do we really gain from a confirmed townie?

BECAUSE DARTHYOSHI COULD BE THE HIDER TRACKER.

You're going on the assumption that the townies knew who the mafia are. This is ridiculous. They are still fallible.

A living confirmed townie means we don't waste time attacking that townie. It means that mafia HAVE to kill that townie. Again, Mafia 101. Scum ALWAYS kill confirmed town, because they are fucking dangerous if left alive. This has the added benefit of making sure our last PR survives another night. So by D3 we have two results from the Psych/Det, GUARANTEED.

I know you don't want to waste your time pushing someone to L-1 only to have them roleclaim, but that's part of the game man.

IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE. NOT TODAY. THIS IS A UNIQUE SITUATION. GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF THE WIKI AND THINK ABOUT IT.

Normally, the only players who can claim are PRs. Usually, PRs do not claim because they will be killed. A living unclaimed PR is better than a claimed dead one.

BUT THE HIDER TRACKER IS OF NO USE TO US UNCLAIMED.

IF THE HIDER TRACKER IS KILLED, THERE IS NO SIGNIFICANT LOSS TO THE TOWN.

Sure, we could take the chance that the HT will survive to lylo. We could trust that the scum will only kill VTs.

BUT I DON'T WANT TO TAKE THAT CHANCE.

I DON'T WANT TO WAKE UP TOMORROW WITH THE HIDER TRACKER DEAD.

I DON'T WANT TO PUSH A SCUMMY PLAYER TO L-1 ONLY TO HAVE THEM CLAIM HIDER TRACKER WITH FIVE HOURS LEFT TO DEADLINE.

I DON'T WANT TO RISK ANYTHING. I WANT TO PLAY IT SAFE.

HIDER TRACKER SHOULD CLAIM IN THEIR NEXT POST. THEN WE MIGHT BE ABLE TO GET SOMEWHERE.

[Umbrage]

You're exactly right. We are in a unique situation, one that I think might benefit from a no-lynch today. Maybe if you actually looked at what I was saying rather than just assuming that the no-lynch is suboptimal play regardless of the situation you'd understand.

There is no upside to no-lynching today over no-lynching tomorrow.

HT claims today, and if we still mislynch it's pretty obvious the scum will kill the HT too. That leaves it as four to two, none confirmed. Unless the Det/Psy has a guilty by that point (more on this later) this is a fairly bad situation to be in.

And what if the Det/Psy is killed tonight? My plan ensures that he lives. Besides, if the Det/Psy doesn't get a guilty, he can claim as well.

Except it's not. We have an available mislynch and no-lynch, due to the number of players. Going with a no-lynch does not reduce the number of lynches we have available, as it would if we had an odd number of players today. With the vig dead, there's only a lynch-scumkill dynamic. That means two deaths a day. Since we can still lose three townies without losing, and the scumkill always kills town, we can only mislynch once because a second mislynch would make it 2 town to 2 scum, which is endgame. After one mislynch we can still lose another town without losing, and the only way that'll happen is if we no-lynch. I'm suggesting we take that no-lynch today rather than after another mislynch.

I see your logic. But the scum's first kill landed on our most valuable PR. I don't want to take the chance they'll miss this time. The Det/Psych is our best shot. We have to keep the remaining PR alive for as long as possible. And that means killing the Hider Tracker.

We can no-lynch later, if the Psych/Det comes up empty-handed. But if we no-lynch now, there's still a chance the Det/Psych will be killed tonight. With my plan, there is no chance. The Psych/Det can live another day. If he has a guilty, he claims and we lynch scum. If not, then we no-lynch.

I'm sorry? How is confirming who the HT is equal to knowing without a doubt that someone is scum?

I meant town.

WIFOMy "Should the scum kill the confirmed town or try to hit the PR" aside, I think you're putting a little too much faith into the Det/Psy powers. Any innocent result he gets is essentially meaningless unless there's only one scum left AND we have a detective. Why? The Detective only picks up a guilty on scum if they are designated as "the killer" that night. So he could target scum that isn't "the killer" and get an innocent. The opposite is true for the Psychologist, who gets a guilty if he targets scum who isn't the killer. So the Det/Psy only has a 50/50 chance of getting a guilty on scum tonight, with 100% chance of innocent on any town. If he gets a guilty, he knows it's scum, but if he gets an innocent it's possible he just targeted the wrong scum that night. When we're down to only one scum then the Psychologist becomes what the HT is now - a unique-claim with no extra use - and the Detective would basically be a cop.

If the scum don't kill the HT, then we get a confirmed townie for the next day as well. Either way, we win.

Yes, the Det/Psych isn't perfect, but it's our last PR.

TL; DR:

Abelcain's plan - No-lynch today, scum have a chance of killing the HT or D/P.

My plan - HT claims, we lynch, scum kill HT, if D/P has guilty, he claims and we lynch, if not then we no-lynch.

[Umbrage]

Umbrage, the idea of HT claiming is pure stupidity it guarentess the death of what will essentially be a clear, and it's not as if their reads are going to be any better then ours. Your insistance to bring up anti-town suggestions is growing old to be quite frank.

AND WHAT DO YOU CALL MASSCLAIMING DAY ONE YOU FUCKING HYPOCRITE?

YES IT GUARANTEES THE DEATH OF A CLEAR. IT ALSO GUARANTEES THE SURVIVAL OF OUR LAST POWER ROLE.

AT LEAST WITH MY PLAN WE GET SOME USE OUT OF THE HIDER TRACKER BEFORE IT'S KILLED.

THE HIDER TRACKER IS USELESS AT NIGHT. THE DET/PSYCH IS VERY USEFUL AT NIGHT. SACRIFICING THE HT TO SAFE THE D/P IS A GOOD MOVE.

IF WE NO-LYNCH, THEN SCUM JUST HAVE ANOTHER SHOT AT A POWER ROLE. AND SO FAR THEIR AIM HAS BEEN PRETTY FUCKING GOOD.

BUT AS I SEEM TO BE THE ONLY ONE WITH ENOUGH BRAINS TO SEE THIS:

VOTE: NOFUCKINGLYNCH

JUST REMEMBER THAT WHEN WE ALL WAKE UP TOMORROW WITH OUR LAST PR DEAD AND ALMOST NO INFO TO GO ON THAT UMBRAGE HAD A WAY OUT.

[Umbrage]

@Umbrage, day one was an entirely different scenario, we had four power roles alive then, one being hider who had the opportunity to clearing/confirming a player and vig who had the possibilty of shooting a second time thus removing the need for a no lynch.

Yes, it was a different scenario, and it was still a bad idea. And in any other scenario, the HT claiming would be a bad idea. But we are talking about now. And you have yet to say why my idea is bad other than it means the HT will die. Guess what? The HT is useless unclaimed. If the HT does not claim, it is just a vanilla townie. If the HT is killed, that means that scum killed a vanilla townie. And since we don't have any doctors, that's the best we can hope for.

The choice is this:

Get a clear now and save the last PR.

Maybe get a clear later and don't save the last PR.

There's also a massive difference between 'Nolynching now' and 'Nolynching later today when more discussion has occured' that should be noted.

There is no fucking difference. As soon as it's clear we're no-lynching, nobody will try to defend themselves. And nobody will truly commit to a case.

Your rant really doesn't add anything apart from showing your lack of ability to stand back from a situation and reasess it.

You clearly haven't been reading.

You're the one that's so upset we didn't go through with your dumbfuck massclaim that you try and shoot down any GOOD idea that comes along.

You don't even have a decent argument as to why my plan is flawed. All you've done thus far is whine about it because that's what all the cool kids are doing. Everyone else disses Umbrage, so you've got to diss him as well if you want to look like a good townie!

If you're not just bullshitting to gain townie points, then PROVE WHY MY PLAN IS FLAWED. Don't throw ad hominem around. Don't complain about my ranting. SHOW ME LOGIC THAT PROVES MY PLAN IS NOT SOLID. Until you do that, your posts are a waste of space.

[Umbrage]

1) You state that if HT tracker claims we increase our chances of hitting mafia from 2/8 to 2/7, the same upside is attained from NL"ing therefore this argument of yours is baseless even you should be able to agree to this.

Yes, but no-lynching does not guarantee the D/P survives the night. Claiming does.

2) You state mafia will be forced to kill the HT tonight, this increases the chances that they hit a PR from 2/6 to 6/6 thus not beneficial and if for some reason they decide the HT isn't worth shooting and would rather shoot the Pysch/Detec the odds they hit the tracker increase from 1/6 to 1/5 thus again not beneficial.

The HT is not a PR. The only use of the HT now is to claim and be a confirmed townie for a day. Once the HT claims, they are as useful as a VT. If scum kill the HT after claiming, then it's the same result as scum killing a VT. Since we have no protective roles, scum killing a VT is the best possible scenario.

If the scum choose instead to try and kill the D/P, then we get another confirmed townie for the next day, and for every day thereafter until the scum hit the D/P.

We either get a safe PR, or an extra confirmed townie. Either way, we win.

3) Scum choosing not to hit the HT and hitting a townie is the same thing is as us NL'ing and mafia hitting a townie, the position we'd be in is the exact same therefore this isn't an argument as to why the HT should claim.

Except that we're infinitely more likely to hit scum today by claiming and lynching than no-lynching.

1) What does a confirmied townie offer us apart from his opinion and thoughts on players which would still be attained if we discuss our thoughts before we NL.

Having a confirmed townie is always a good thing. It narrows down the possible lynch candidates and saves a lot of time. And you know you can trust confirmed town. Earlier, someone was suggesting we analyze the suspects of the dead confirmed. A living confirmed is far more valuable.

2) No one said anything about Psych/Det claiming therefore even bringing this up is pointless.

You said that the HT claiming is bad because he'll be killed. But the HT being killed after claiming is a very good outcome, because the HT is not a PR. If a PR like the P/D claimed, then yes, it would be bad. But the HT is not like that.

3) Tommorow won't be LYLO and tommorow is when the HT can claim, therefore this argument is moot as well.

Hopefully, yes. Unless the HT is killed. Or the P/D could be killed, which would not happen if the HT claimed now.

A) A clear giving us a guarenteed townies point of view on something, if you want this we have 3 players who died guarenteed town whose opinions you can seek, the player who would be/is our clear will still be stating their opinion today and therefore if they die tonight we still have their thoughts. This means the benefit in HT claiming for this is gone.

A living confirmed is far more valuable than a dead confirmed. Ask anyone. Proof? Scum always kill confirmed town. Always.

B) It means that we increase the likelyhood of Psych/Detectives survival, oh wait we don't because it narrows down the Psych/Detect for mafia by doing so.

At the price of having confirmed town alive another day. If they don't kill the HT, the scum gamble. And if they take the gamble and lose, we have an incredible advantage.

Put yourself in the scum's shoes. Do you really think they will want to take the chance that they'll hit the PR at the cost of having confirmed town again? Either:

a) The scum don't feel confident enough to make the kill and go for the safer option of killing the HT.

or

b) The scum are confident enough that they know who the D/P is, and if they are that certain, then they must have figured out who it is already. In that case, then it's safe to say that having another potential target crossed off the kill list won't make a difference.

So either the scum know who the D/P is, in which case the HT should claim today because he won't be killed and we'll get an extra confirmed town, or they know don't know who the D/P is, in which case they'll have to play it safe and kill the HT, ensuring the D/P stays alive.

[Umbrage]

You clearly underestimate the importance fo the HT, even though they now have no powers they're a complete clear, therefore the longer they're kept alive the better it is for us - thus the claiming of them is stupid and idiotic.

The longer they go without claiming, the higher the chance they will be killed. If you really think the HT is important, then you wouldn't want to risk the chance that they are killed before they get a chance to claim.

On the other hand, you'r overestimating the power of the psychologist/detective.

If the P/D is really as useless as you say, then why fret over the fact that scum would have a slightly better chance at killing him? That's the one arguable downside to my plan: scum might decide to kill the P/D instead of the HT, and they'd have a better shot at it. But if the P/D is useless anyway, that renders the point moot.

No matter how you look at it, the P/D is more valuable than the HT. Period. I don't want to hear about how slim the chance of a guilty is. It's still an infinitely greater chance than the HT getting a guilty. So sacrificing the HT to protect the P/D is a good move. End of story.

Now, you're assuming that the longer the HT can be kept alive, the better. But the HT is only useful if he claims. We have no protective role. The scum have shown themselves to be excellent shots. So the longer the HT holds off on claiming, the more likely it is that he will be killed before he can claim. And then we've lost our advantage.

Moreover, if the HT waits until lylo, as you seem to be suggesting, the scum will be able to counter-claim and we will again lose the advantage of having a confirmed townie.

Therefore, it is in the best interest of the town for the HT to claim as soon as possible, so that the scum can not kill him or CC him.

The HT claiming now has the added benefit of allowing the P/D to survive another night. If the scum decide to try and kill the P/D and miss, then we've got them cornered. If they hit the P/D, they probably would've hit him if we'd no-lynched, but at least this way we get two lynches with a confirmed townie.

There is no downside to this plan. Every outcome is either identical or superior to the outcomes of a no-lynch. There is no benefit to no-lynching that cannot occur by lynching with an HT claim.

HT should claim in their next post, then we can finally get some scumhunting done today.

[Umbrage]

Having an uncounterable claim will be more and more valuable as the game progresses. Umbrage argues that we might lose the HT if they don't claim now. What, because scum will accidentally kill them? Scum will almost certainly kill them immediately after claiming. Umbrage's constant defense of an obviously antitown tactic is reinforcing his place as my number one read.

IDIOT.

READ MY POSTS.

THE WHOLE POINT IS THAT SCUM WILL KILL HIDER TRACKER THAT NIGHT.

I THOUGHT ABOUT THAT.

I THOUGHT ABOUT EVERYTHING THAT COULD HAPPEN.

AND I POSTED EVERY POSSIBLE SCENARIO.

TRY READING IN ORDER TO UNDERSTAND.

I DON'T FEEL LIKE REPEATING MYSELF AGAIN TO EXPLAIN WHAT I'VE ALREADY EXPLAINED A THOUSAND TIMES.

READ MY POSTS AND FIGURE IT OUT YOURSELF.

IF YOU'VE NOTHING TO CONTRIBUTE OTHER THAN "UMBRAGE IS STILL SCUM" DO THE TOWN A FAVOUR AND REPLACE OUT NOW.

@ Krazy: Top two FoSes? Meaning take a stab at guessing the scum.

Honestly, Snake Eyes' lurkiness strikes me more as town than scum. I still think he's one of the scummiest players in the game, but I'm beginning to evaluate that read.

I'm still sure Abelcain knew Xtoxm's alignment. I simply can't see town saying something like that. Maybe I'm just paranoid though, nobody else seems to have seen it.

Lately I'm concerned about Ythan and his tunneling on me. When he was attacking Krazy, it was scummy, but understandable. But his town play has deteriorated even further. Krazy is way better than he is at this point.

[Umbrage]

No problem. UNVOTE: No-Lynch

[Umbrage]

Wait a second. This just occurred to me, but it involves a counterclaim in your plan. It's possible that scum could fakeclaim Det/Psy and claim a guilty on a town. It's also possible that they could fakeclaim Det/Psy even if the real Det/Psy has a guilty. So even if the Det/Psy did get a guilty result tomorrow, there's no way to verify that it's an actual investigation result and not a fakeclaim from scum. This... completely removes any use the Det/Psy might have come tomorrow. If we decide to just lynch the guilty and it turns out to be a fakeclaim, we lose. If anything, the Det/Psy is just a glorified townie now the same way the HT is because scum wouldn't be stupid enough to just let the guilty go through if they can fake us out.

This is actually one of the reasons I support having the HT claim now rather than later, because scum won't counter-claim. I admit, I don't know what to do about the D/P claiming. The D/P should claim whenever they have a guilty, but if it's lylo... We'll just have to rely on good old-fashioned scum-hunting.

[Umbrage]

Still here. Still think HT claiming is the best strategy for today. Still think no-lynch is waste of time. But hey, you guys do what you want.

[Umbrage]

The fact that nobody agrees with your retarded plan no matter how many times you repeat yourself should give you a clue that maybe you should quit shouting the same bullshit at the top of your lungs in every post.

The fact that nobody agrees with your retarded plan

The fact that nobody agrees

nobody agrees

Instead of responding to my arguments, Yfuck decides to appeal to the majority. After all, why should someone use logic when they can hide behind the crowd of other people's arguments? If 'nobody agrees' anyway, who cares if Yfuck skimps on his reading?

I think I remember seeing this behaviour before. Where was that? Oh yeah, FROM EVERY SINGLE SCUM IN EVERY SINGLE MAFIA GAME I HAVE EVER PLAYED. NOW GO BACK TO NEWBIE GAMES BEFORE YOU EMBARRASS YOURSELF FURTHER.

[Umbrage]

Hey, Yfuck, I just thought of something.

I'll humbly apologize for everything I said to you and admit I was wrong about everything IF...

you prove how my plan is invalid.

I want a solid argument outlining something I missed.

No personal attacks.

No appeal to majority.

Not a rehash of one of the arguments I've already dispelled.

Just a simple worst-case scenario that shows a serious flaw with my plan.

You know, like the kind they make in mafia games.

All you gotta do.

Or, you can resort to your typical strategy of contributing nothing except saying that other people aren't contributing.

In which case I'll continue to laugh at your fucking stupidity.

Your call.

[Umbrage]

Yes, I'm not coming up with any content. The twentieth time you repeated your opinion made me think it would be safest to jump on the bandwagon. Oh no boohoo staying on the loser's side sucks. Start a diary if you need a place to contribute content, quit filling the thread with your unpopular opinions.

Yep. My scumometer's pretty strong right about now.

[Umbrage]

So.

Activity in this game sucks.

I still have yet to see a valid argument against the HT claiming other than 'MAJORITY DONT WANT SO SUK IT RETARD'. (And as we all know, the majority has always been right.)

But at this point, with this activity level, no-lynch might be the best option. I've got exams coming up, so I can't take the time to study the thread and find scum on my own. I don't see us agreeing on anyone any time soon, and if we try and force a decision our chances of a mislynch increase.

So against my better judgement, I'm willing to go along with a no-lynch.

[Umbrage]

Cool story bro. But it doesn't change the facts:

I still have yet to see a valid argument against the HT claiming other than 'MAJORITY DONT WANT SO SUK IT RETARD'.

For every concern against my plan made thus far, I've proven why it still works. If you think otherwise, cite examples. I have no interest in starting a pissing match with you. Either show some reasoning or get out. I'd like to remind you that you were the one to bring this up after I agreed to no-lynch. I've already proven everything I need to prove, and I don't need to justify myself to you at this point in time.

You know, until you make an argument worth responding to, I'll just cut and paste this message in reply! It'll save time that I could use for important things!

[Umbrage]

Until you accept that throwing out a theory and pretending you've proven something is a bullshit way to approach a game containing more than one person, your posts are going to continue to lack any value.

Cool story bro. But it doesn't change the facts:

I still have yet to see a valid argument against the HT claiming other than 'MAJORITY DONT WANT SO SUK IT RETARD'.

For every concern against my plan made thus far, I've proven why it still works. If you think otherwise, cite examples. I have no interest in starting a pissing match with you. Either show some reasoning or get out. I'd like to remind you that you were the one to bring this up after I agreed to no-lynch. I've already proven everything I need to prove, and I don't need to justify myself to you at this point in time.

You know, until you make an argument worth responding to, I'll just cut and paste this message in reply! It'll save time that I could use for important things!

[Umbrage]

If it's a choice between no-lynching and doing nothing, versus the HT claiming and giving us a chance of taking out scum, I'd rather see the claim.

This. If we're going to have any chance killing scum today, the HT claims in their next post. If the HT insists on being stupid, we cut our losses and no-lynch.

I will vote no-lynch if/when all players have posted and there is no HT claim.

[Umbrage]

I mean, hell, at this point it's obvious neither Vordark or myself are the HT, or we'd have claimed. Assuming he's not scum, it's a one in four chance the HT will be dead if we no-lynch. If we mislynch, it's a one in three chance. Actually, the odds are probably higher than that seeing as the scum hit the most dangerous PR with their first shot. HT, are you really comfortable with all that? Are you sure you want to go into the night unclaimed? This will likely be your last chance.

[Umbrage]

DAMN IT.

IT IS THE BEST PLAN.

I HAVE PROVEN THERE IS NO ADVANTAGE TO NO-LYNCHING THAT IS NOT ACHIEVED BY CLAIMING AND LYNCHING.

NOW YOU'RE SAYING I'M ROLEFISHING?

USE YOUR HEAD. SCUM DON'T WANT TO FIND THE HT. THE HT IS USELESS. THEY WANT TO FIND THE D/P.

MY PLAN ENSURES THAT THE SCUM DO NOT FUCKING KILL THE D/P.

ERGO IF I AM ROLEFISHING THE WORST THING THAT COULD HAPPEN TO ME IS IF PEOPLE DID WHAT I TOLD THEM TO DO.

IF I AM SCUM, THEN I AM SCREWED BY MY OWN FUCKING PLAN.

THIS GAME IS DYING. HALF THE PLAYERS ARE FUCKING GONE. I'M THE ONLY ONE WHO'S STILL TRYING TO LYNCH SCUM.

THE HT CLAIMING GIVES US THE BEST CHANCE OF LYNCHING SCUM TODAY.

THAT'S ALL I CARE ABOUT. LYNCHING SCUM.

DO YOU WANT TO LYNCH SCUM?

THEN THE HT HAD BETTER FUCKING CLAIM.

[Umbrage]

By no-lynching, the worst case scenario is that tomorrow we have one unique claim and a mislynch available in case the scum try to counterclaim on that unique claim. The best case scenario is that tomorrow we have two unique claims and a mislynch that we can use to try to prove either of those claims. Prove that there is any way that the claim and lynch plan has the advantage that my best-case scenario has.

HOW'S KILLING SCUM FOR AN ADVANTAGE?

NO?

WELL HOW ABOUT THIS: MY PLAN ENSURES WE WILL GET TWO LYNCHES WITH A CONFIRMED TOWNIE AVAILABLE, AND THE BEST CHANCE WE HAVE OF GETTING A GUILTY. YOUR PLAN HAS A CHANCE OF GETTING TWO CONFIRMED TOWNIES FOR ONE LYNCH, THAT IS IF THE SCUM DON'T COUNTER-CLAIM OR NO-KILL OR KILL A PR OR BASICALLY DO ANYTHING OF ANY IMPORTANCE.

I've already demonstrated that the Det/Psy is just about as useless as the HT. I can't believe you don't understand that, but let me spell it out for you. Let's assume that the HT claims today, but we mislynch. Tonight, the HT gets killed. Even if the Det/Psy gets a guilty, here's how tomorrow plays out:

Person A: Hi, I'm the Det/Psy, and I have a guilty on Person B!
Person C: What are you talking about? I'm the Det/Psy, and I have a guilty on Person D!

Now who do you lynch? You have no more available mislynches since you mislynched the day before. Taking the no-lynch tomorrow results in the scum killing Person E, who is completely unrelated to the claims, that night. Now if you're person F you're in LyLo with only a 50/50 chance of winning. And that's only in the extremely small likelihood that the Det/Psy gets a guilty. Without a guilty, Person A and Person C both claim with no guilties, and you can't even lynch one to figure out the other because one mislynch ends in loss. And if one claimant claims a guilty, you still don't know if it's a reliable guilty or if it's a scumlie in an attempt to win.

Now that it is established that the Det/Psy's guilty result cannot be reliable without having a mislynch available to verify whether or not the guilty is coming from a real Det/Psy, the Det/Psy has essentially turned into what the HT is now.

WHICH IS ALL THE MORE REASON WHY THE PRS SHOULD CLAIM SOONER RATHER THAN LATER, WHEN THE SCUM CAN COUNTER-CLAIM.

Nice try, but that's completely untrue. Scum are screwed if they go with the no-lynch plan, or at least more screwed than the claim/lynch plan. The best way to ensure that the town decides to go with the claim/lynch plan is to out the HT and/or force him to claim. If who the HT is becomes knowledge before the end of the day, then the no-lynch plan ceases to be the better plan because there's zero chance that the HT will survive the night. So if you're a rolefishing scum, the best thing that can happen to you is that you find the HT before the day is out because it forces the town to have to go with the claim/lynch plan.

BUT THE HT IS EXPENDABLE. THE D/P IS NOT.

WITH YOUR PLAN, SCUM CAN KILL WHOEVER THEY THINK IS THE D/P. WITH MY PLAN THE D/P IS SAFE.

REGARDLESS OF HOW GOOD YOU THINK YOUR PLAN IS, MY PLAN STILL FUCKS SCUM.

IF WE FOLLOW MY PLAN, SCUM ARE SCREWED. EITHER THEY ENSURE THE D/P LIVES ANOTHER NIGHT, OR THEY TAKE A GAMBLE OF HITTING THE D/P AND SUFFER ANOTHER DAY WITH AT LEAST ONE CONFIRMED TOWN.

EITHER WAY, TOWN WINS.

You're completely right, because the HT not claiming leads into us no-lynching which means we have zero chance of lynching scum today. But we have a much greater chance of lynching scum tomorrow. The HT claiming also gives us the best chance of mislynching today too.

THAT. IS. BULLSHIT.

HOW DOES THE HT CLAIMING MAKE A MISLYNCH MORE LIKELY?

Today alone I called you out on trying to AtE the HT into claiming, rolefishing to try to find one of our two PRs, trying to coerce the town into following your plan rather than letting them make their own decision, and now here you're threatening the town to get the HT to claim. Why do you have such a problem with the majority making the decision? Why are you trying to force your plan to go through if the rest of the town doesn't want it to go through?

HOW THE FUCK CAN I THREATEN ANYONE? WHAT POWERS DO I HAVE TO DO THAT EXACTLY?

[Umbrage]

VOTE: No-Lynch

What the hell. I've pretty much given up on this game as dead anyway. Might as well be a good little townie and cut my own throat.

[Umbrage]

We're no-lynching anyway apparently, so I guess it doesn't matter.

One thing I'd like to get off my chest: I was perfectly civil in suggesting the idea. It's only when I started to see insults and the same old arguments appear that I took it a step up. So don't get all 'UMBRAGE IS ANTITOWN' on me. I'm keeping this game alive, and don't you forget it.

[Umbrage]

Responding to prod, but I don't have anything else to say. Since nobody gives a shit about this game anymore, you should just fucking hammer no-lynch and be done with it.

Hell, why don't just concede the game to scum already? With this apathy, there's no way we can get anyone lynched.

[Umbrage]

Was Ythan softclaiming a guilty on Umbrage, or voting obvtown to appear less appealing as a night-kill choice?

No need for speculation. We're massclaiming today.

Hey Amrun! Are you stalking me?

[Umbrage]

Alright then.

Claim: Hider Tracker.

Vote: Amrun.

Discuss.

HOW THE HELL DID WE ALL MISS THIS?

[Umbrage]

So is this the point where I remind you all we could've made sure that the Detective lived another night?

[Umbrage]

I believe Amrun thought DY was claiming Detective and had a guilty on her, which Amrun knew was false because she is a VT. It does strike me as rather paranoid though, add that to my Snake Eyes case.

[Umbrage]

So is this the point where I remind you all we could've made sure that the Detective lived another night?

And that's why you caved to AbelCain's No Lynch suggestion after something like two posts, that right?

I caved when AbelCain started THREATENING me to go along with the no-lynch. When I get called scum for pushing a pro-town suggestion, that tells me town is totally fucked up in the head and any effort I put in is useless.

(BTW, Umbrage, stop whining your "I-told-you-so's" and start scumhunting. We've got six unknown players. Two are scum. Go.)

Oh yeah, finding scum should be easy now that we've had two full days worth of discussion, that is, if we actually discussed anything of importance on D2 instead of deciding to no-lynch early on, then have everyone flake from the game even though that's exactly what I predicted would happen if we agreed to no-lynch.

My top scum read right now is Snake Eyes/Amrun. For a buddy, I'm leaning towards either Abelcain or Krazy, gut instinct.

[Umbrage]

Well, there's a pretty good chance we hit scum today. They're likely going to be playing cautiously to ensure the win, that means lots of distancing. One scum needs to survive to tomorrow, so you sacrifice one to ensure the other's success. I've done it as scum not too long ago and it worked beautifully.

[Umbrage]

You're tunneling on Snake Eyes for the dumbest reason ever, btw.

I read up to page like 20 before I knew who I was replacing. I got who I wanted, as I had pegged Snake Eyes as town but was unsure about Vordark.

I do understand why my first post of the day seemed paranoid, but I hadn't realized everyone had posted and therefore that DY was confirmed to be who he said he was.

That's a dumb thing to rest an entire case on, though.

Then you clearly haven't read my case. I caught Snake Eyes lying about why he voted me, and also seemed to know certain players were town before there was any evidence for that.

Well, I've never yet sold out a scumbuddy. Check my meta. I suppose I might do it in dire circumstances, but the idea... I'm not likely to ever do that. It doesn't often work out the way people plan, though it CAN, and it feels dishonest to me. It doesn't suit my playstyle.

OK yeah, I totally believe you.

I do understand why my first post of the day seemed paranoid, but I hadn't realized everyone had posted and therefore that DY was confirmed to be who he said he was.

That's a dumb thing to rest an entire case on, though.

A) That's not an excuse, you don't vote someone because they HAVEN'T BEEN COUNTER-CLAIMED.

B) The last line is total bullshit. It's just YET ANOTHER scumtell to add to the mountain I've found on your slot.

Care to point out where I threatened you? Or where I called you scum for your suggestion? I said more than once that your plan was perfectly viable, I just came up with another one that I thought was better and you stuck your fingers in your ears and called me scum for suggesting it. Then when everyone else started to agree with me, you threw a fit

Tsk tsk. Do you really have such a short memory?

Now I'm convinced that Umbrage is rolefishing. He seems more interested in figuring out who the PRs are than whether or not they are any use. This is especially glaring since he agreed with the no-lynch plan only a few posts ago, which hopes that both PRs remain safe, and he's now announcing who he thinks is not the HT... Finally, your last few sentences ("HT, are you really comfortable with that?" etc.) sound like so much AtE it's making my scumdar go crazy. I can't imagine any way that trying to scare the HT into claiming can possibly be considered pro-town.

But go ahead with your WAH I DONT LIKE UMBRAGE COZ HE POSTZ IN CAPZ campaign. That will totally get people to respect you.

[Umbrage]

Umbrage, saying I voted for DY because he was un-CCed is a huge misrep. I voted for him because I thought he was scum and therefore. That a CC would be forthcoming.

What? You're telling me that you were SO sure DarthYoshi was scum that you disbelieved his claim without anyone counter-claiming, but you magically form a case on Abelcain, calling him your top scumread?

OK, maybe I can buy the fact that you had INCREDIBLY strong scum reads on two different players. But Abelcain and DarthYoshi? Those two have been bickering all game, they each find the other quite scummy, and I can tell you with almost complete certainty that they are not scum together.

OK, maybe I can buy that you believed they were scum busing each other. If that's the case, why was my theory that you were scum with Abelcain so surprising to you?

If you believed both DarthYoshi and Abelcain were scum, you wouldn't have reacted like that to my idea.

Therefore you did not believe that both DarthYoshi and Abelcain were scum.

Therefore your case on one of them is fabricated.

Therefore you are lying.

Therefore you are scum.

Die.

[Umbrage]

So, you just arbitrarily decided to vote DY?

And he just happened to be voting you?

[Umbrage]

1) There's absolutely no reason you'd vote DarthYoshi at that point unless you thought he had a guilty on you. And there's no reason to think he'd have a guilty on you unless you're scum.

2) Why is it so ridiculous that you might be busing Abelcain, but I could still be buddies with him after all the no-lynch/claiming shit yesterday?

[Umbrage]

1) Because the sooner you react outraged to the guilty, the more likely it is that we believe you.

2) Still not an answer.

[Umbrage]

VOTE: Amrun

[Umbrage]

Except your actions don't match your words. Exact same thing with Snake Eyes. He said he didn't think I was scummy, but then acted as if I was. When I called him out on it, he hemed and hawed and then started lurking the next day. Now Scumrun panics when she sees a PR vote her, and tries to cover it up with... 'I wasn't thinking'? 'I didn't have my notes'? Not an excuse. The post where you voted DY was the one post of yours that wasn't calculated, that wasn't double-checked, and it's scummy as hell. Add in a bit of weak OMGUS (how the hell does an Abelcain-me scumteam make ANY sense?) and you've got scum. Finally.

[Umbrage]

Except I am going to be lynched and flip town, and we'll see who was right about my motivations.

This is pretty much just AtE.

[Umbrage]

OK, Abelcain and pod person are the only people who (from my POV) aren't confirmed town. Since it's almost guaranteed that scum were in on the lynch, we are lynching one of them.

Despite the hammer, my primary suspect is Abelcain. He's expressed no suspicion of Snake Eyes in the entire game. For him to switch so suddenly is extremely suspicious. I've seen townies hammer poorly, but Abelcain's attack was far more calculated. It's entirely possible both are the scum, but if one of them is town, my money's on pod person.

Krazy should unvote right now. This is lylo. Nobody votes until we all agree on a lynch.

[Umbrage]

I didn't notice you voted, it was at the end of a line. I just skimmed the new posts, I wanted to get that out quickly.

i don't like how everyone but me and abel have scum reads on me and abel. i'm assuming both scum are going to push for one of us as a mislynch, which makes it very unlikely fmpov that abel is scum.

I don't like this. You're saying that you think scum will push Abelcain for a mislynch, which implies that Abelcain is town. But you say that you think Abelcain is town BECAUSE scum will push him for a mislynch. It's circular reasoning.

[Umbrage]

I'm beginning to wonder of Krazy and pod person are the scum. Frankly, if they were both town, scum would've won by now.

[Umbrage]

pod person, why do you think Krazy is scum? You've said you didn't need his 'smear campaign to convince you'.

[Umbrage]

Personally I see the most likely partnership to be Podperson/Abelcain as I still have a minor-town read on Krazy but I'm going to need to do some re-reading in the next few hours, Umbrage and Abelcain I see you both lurking this thread, honestly if you're both mafia just end it and save me the time.

What the hell is this? A message to your scumbuddy Abelcain?

FoS: Regfan

[Umbrage]

OK, time to simplify things.

Scum were on yesterday's lynch. That is a fact.

Scum have to be among pod person and Krazy, or scum would've won by now.

Ergo, the scum team is either Krazy/Abelcain, or pod person and anybody else.

I'll be looking to see if there's any evidence for a Krazy/Abelcain team. If there is none, we lynch pod person.

EDIT:

@ Abelcain - I thought it was a message, to see if you were ready to quicklynch so that Regfan wouldn't out himself and let somebody unvote. You posted before I could send the message, and I didn't bother to edit it. I guess that since neither of you have voted, you two aren't the scum team.

[Umbrage]

Oh fun. Now Regfan's going for the scum-of-the-year award.

Wait...

Regfan cannot be scum with pod person, or he'd have voted Krazy instead.

Regfan cannot be scum with Abelcain, or the game would be over.

Regfan cannot be scum with Krazy, or Krazy wouldn't have unvoted.

Ergo Regfan is town.

@ Regfan: My suspicion of Abelcain mainly comes from his sudden hop onto the Amrun wagon, when in the past he has defended Snake Eyes and insisted my reasoning was incorrect. What provoked the switch?

[Umbrage]

Wait a minute!

Regfan! YOU ARE TOWN. UNVOTE THIS FUCKING SECOND!

I really shouldn't play late at night. My brain slows to a crawl.

[Umbrage]

Wait ANOTHER minute!

Abelcain and Krazy can't be the scum team either, or they would've killed pod person when Regfan voted!

THEREFORE POD PERSON MUST BE SCUM!!!

REGFAN, IGNORE MY PREVIOUS ORDER!!!

VOTE: POD PERSON

[Umbrage]

Actually, I think it's pod person and Krazy. They vote each other early on, wait for an unsuspecting townie to hop on the wagon (Regfan), then immediately unvote and start to attack the townie! Perfect plan!

Krazy, all that proves is that pod person is your buddy. You were all ready to lynch his ass before, now you want to wait? SCUM!

THIS GAME CRACKED OPEN AND HANDED TO YOU ON A SILVER PLATTER BY UMBRAGE THE MAGNIFICENT. BOO-YAH.

[Umbrage]

Well, if you die, then obviously Abelcain is trying to silence you! If I die, then Krazy's trying to get rid of me, so you kill him.

OR MAYBE THAT'S JUST WHAT WE WANT THE SCUM TO THINK!!!!!!!!!!!

HAHAHA EVIL WIFOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Umbrage]

As far as I'm concerned, Regfan is confirmed town to me. That means scum have to kill him, then Krazy and Abelcain crossvote. Then I apply my SUPER MAFIA FINDING POWERZ to figure out which is scum.

BOO-YAH I FEEL GOOD!!!

[Umbrage]

Actually, I'm still on the fence about Abelcain being scum. So IF Krazy is scum, the BEST thing for him to do is to KILL ME!!!

(HINT: this is more WIFOM!)

[Umbrage]

Krazy's posturing isn't helping his case. He's a little too eager to get rid of Abelcain. Then again, Abelcain's been buddying with Vordark all game.

WHO TO CHOOSE WHO TO CHOOSE...

[Umbrage]

Abelcain the day before yesterday: Umbrage is very stupid and scummy for pushing the no-lynch idea.

Abelcain the day before that: Umbrage is clueless and tunneling.

WHO'S THE ALMIGHTY ONE NOW, ABBY BOY?

[Umbrage]

Hm... what to say about this game?

Honestly, I think this was a really easy game to win. Xtoxm's claim gave me an out for D1, the no-lynch/claiming bullshit got me through D2, pod person hammered quickly D3, and from there it was smooth sailing. (Although, I would like to take the moment to brag about my PERFECT kill choices!)

I have no idea why everyone thought I was town. I figured I was dead the first day.

Despite the claims and hammers and other shit, in my opinion town's main problem was with bickering. I get the feeling Krazy and Ythan could've won this game on their own if they cooperated. And the whole Abelcain/Vordark/DarthYoshi arguing back and forth meant Regfan and I could slip under the radar easily. Not to mention all the shouting I did D2 was one big diversion that worked better than could've hoped.

So, less bickering coupled with more perspective and we wouldn't have stood a chance.

[Umbrage]

I wouldn't have voted unless I wasn't literally checking the thread every 10 seconds. All I did was turn off "showing online status." I was just ITCHING for someone to try a blitz. AND THEY FUCKING DID. It took me less than three minutes to unvote, DURING WHICH TIME UMBRAGE WAS TYPING A POST.

I had it down to pod person, or THE ENTIRE REMAINING SCUMTEAM, based purely on a lylo gambit. Yeah, maybe I shouldn't have had to rely on that, and I'm not sure I wouldn't have ended up voting pod person anyway, but fuck.

@ Regfan: THIS IS EXACTLY WHY I DIDN'T VOTE.

[Umbrage]

Oh man, if you had picked me, scum would've been so screwed...

[Umbrage]

I'm reluctant to tweak this setup. In 3 or 4 games, town has never won a single one.

Oh man, if you had picked me, scum would've been so screwed...

This game could've easily swung the other way.