Newbie 1138 - Game Over! Town Win!

[Honest Abel]

We would have been a hell of a team, one of us honest and the other innocent. It's a shame!

Let's skip the stupid discussion about how odds are slim I was chosen to be mafia on both rolls, shall we?

[Honest Abel]

Alright, I'm just gonna get some questions out just so we can get to know each other a bit.
1. How many games have you played at MafiaScum?
2. Have you played anywhere else prior to MafiaScum?
3. Do you believe in magic?
4. Know any of the other players in the game from prior games?

1. One full newb game. I was mafia and won.
2. I've played on a couple of other non-mafia forums, but using mafiascum.net rules.
4. I've played with whilst on another forum a couple times, and I've played with dicknose on another forum once.

[Honest Abel]

Let's skip the stupid discussion about how odds are slim I was chosen to be mafia on both rolls, shall we?

Interesting you would 1) be the one to bring this up when you say you don't want this discussed and 2) phrase it the way you do "how odds are slim

I'm an interesting fellow. What's weird about the phrasing? I tried to simply follow standard grammar. I'm an editor and a poet, just fyi. I brought it up because it seemed inevitable. It seems like every game I've played, someone's like "this guy was mafia last game, so odds are slim he's mafia this game." Just making sure nobody believes that.

Let's skip the stupid discussion about how odds are slim I was chosen to be mafia on both rolls, shall we?

the odds are exactly the same each time, slim though they may be.

Stop trolling, dicknose.

Vote: dicknose

for trolling.

[Honest Abel]

Does anybody care about anyone else's answers to those four questions? I feel like it was just a stupid survey and I'm never going to read anyone else's answers or think about it again.

Let's get to something a little meatier. If you were mafia and this game had actually had a Night start, who would you have killed and why?

[Honest Abel]

I understand that your questions are trying to get people to talk. They got people to answer the questions survey style, which isn't interesting to me.

My question, on the other hand, is designed to force mafia to say things they might not want to have to say. Each time they're forced to talk about what they would do in certain situations, they face the choice of whether or not they should lie. And keeping a series of lies straight over the course of a game puts more pressure on the guilty party than allowing them to coast through having only to answer questions about magic. And when people are under pressure, they get sloppy. It doesn't matter whether or not the mafia know my intentions. They will be forced to answer along with everyone else if everyone else also answers. I think this is one of the most effective avenues for putting blanket pressure on mafia.

[Honest Abel]

Also, there are a number of motivations mafia would consider when choosing to kill someone before a game starts. The level of experience being the main factor. Everyone knows that there are SEs and an IC in this game. Well, would you kill one of the more experienced players, or kill some nobody?

[Honest Abel]

But your question is pointless because it puts people in the shoes of the mafia, which the mafia are already in, so they have no need to lie.

So you think the mafia would be completely honest and tell us exactly who they would have killed in every situation? Ask the same question on Day 2. Ask it again on Day 3. I can guarantee that both mafia won't be telling the truth about who they killed and why. My question about a hypothetical Night 0 is just a reference point for later.

[Honest Abel]

Maybe this is just me, but when I was mafia in my last game, I found the major fault of the town team is that they didn't force me to lie a single time in the game. I was able to honestly scumhunt like any other townie, which is part of why the IC said at one point that I was "100% town." It wasn't until the final day when it was me and two townies left, that one of the less experienced players finally put a decent question out there: "Who would you have killed Night 3?" It was the first thing in the game that made me remember that I was mafia and it made me sweat just thinking about how to answer it. Should I tell the truth and say I'd kill the guy who I killed? Or should I lie? If I were to lie, I would have had to go back through the ENTIRE game and make sure the person I picked didn't conflict with something I'd said in the past. That's when I realized, or began to hypothesize, that forcing mafia to lie is an awesome tactic. And I was about to go through the entire thread to make sure I could say some lie, when the other townie voted for that guy and I was able to hammer and win. Otherwise, I think such a question would have done me in.

So that's why I'm asking my question. I would appreciate it if you'd answer rather than skirt the issue, BBmolla.

[Honest Abel]

Especially because everyone else was so kind as to answer your random questions.

[Honest Abel]

I care, I want to know if people have played before. 100% brand new players play much different from people who have a handful of games under their belt.

ICs have played at least five games on this site. Something like that. SEs have played at least two. Everyone else in this game is either completely new or has played only one game before. Not to dismiss our games at the townhall, but the caliber of play there isn't anywhere near as competitive or focused as it is here. I still consider myself a complete newb even after having played and modded a bunch of games there. It's a lot different when you're playing with people who are a little more serious about it. That's not entirely credit to mafiascum, though, because games on here can get a little grating.

[Honest Abel]

Many said they would have killed one of the more experienced players, but that's wine tbh. Think about it.
Most people here believe that one of the experienced players would be killed. So N0 passes and a newbie is killed. What would you think? Would you think that means all the experienced players are scum?

This can be a pretty good strategy to easily take out two or more townies. Kill a newbie at night and make the experienced ones suspicious so it'll be easier to kill them during the day.

As this is how I see it, I can't be sure who I would have killed. I believe that if the IC player were part of the mafia, I would have killed a newbie. People would expect the IC to be killed above anyone else. If a SE player is killed, they'd conclude the IC is most likely scum. Thus killing a newbie will be the right move as it'll make both the SE and IC players suspicious.

I believe in any other case I would have killed a IC as expected from me . Or perhaps a SE in order to make the IC a lynchbait due to reason stated above. But then again, I could always kill a newbie in order to make them all suspicious. So I think this is wine and there's no definite answer. Not for me at least.

I was hoping for this type of answer. I still don't think my question is entirely irrelevant. I wanted to see who would say the obvious answer, who would sheep that response, and who would put more thought into it and say something different. I think it established a decent starting point to figuring out a few players' posting style.

BBMolla

I'm getting a scum vibe, and here are my reasons why:

1. Instead of answering my question, he argued how it's pointless and irrelevant (which is something a townie
   might
   do if he had reason to be defensive, which he did, because I criticized his question first; but it's not a total loss because the conflict helped us learn a little bit about whilst).
2. He explained that mafia would have no need to lie and that no information could be gleaned from a N0 kill. I think it's safe to say that this isn't exactly true, and the dismissive attitude is noteworthy.
3. The EbWoP makes the original comment look like a total scum slip-up.
4. He only answered my question (begrudgingly) after whilst pointed out that BB would only continue arguing if he were scum.
5. Post #34, in which he defends why he's still arguing, strikes me as overly defensive of a silly thing. He's "trying to make [me] see" that my logic is flawed. What can a townie gain from doing that other than making the target look stupid and/or win the argument to gain points?
6. He was reluctant to be the third voter on my bandwagon, and only joined after someone pointed out his reluctance.

Unvote: dicknose

Vote: BBMolla

I have opinions of other players, too, but nothing else I see the use in sharing at the moment. If I get to L-1, I will share the rest of my thoughts, but they will be premature.

[Honest Abel]

I wouldn't say I ever argued with him. I got use out of my question, and used it to take a first stab at a real vote. He can believe or say he believes that my question was irrelevant if he wants; I'm not disputing that. Maybe the fact that he says it's irrelevant is what makes it relevant to me.

[Honest Abel]

I also forgot about that question. I like being town more. It gives me an opportunity to learn how to scumhunt. Being mafia is the same as being town during the Day phases, except you know you aren't actually scumhunting seven of the other eight players. Being mafia, even when you win, isn't really great experience, because you know too much.

The mod will post vote counts if he/she is diligent.

[Honest Abel]

Let me just make sure you guys understand that I'm NOT saying that I have less of a chance of being mafia due to being mafia on the first roll. I was pointing out that it's a dumb conversation to have because it's statistically obvious that I have the same chance of being mafia now as I had on the first roll. I don't understand why people are using that statement as motivation to vote for me, considering the statement successfully prevented the discussion entirely and casually invites anyone to suspect me in spite of the idea.

cavjj, you admit that you want me to share my thoughts prematurely? Sharing them now will only tip people off that I find them suspicious and will be watching their moves for certain things, thereby changing their behavior and making their patterns more difficult to distinguish. Being premature, they are also possibly ill-formed and uninteresting. I hope it's worth it to you:

whilst

whilst has been playing the people pleaser. Despite the criticism BBmolla and I exchanged about our questions, whilst continually agreed with both of us about everything until post #50, in which he disagreed with both of us. I was going to keep track of whilst's propensity to act agreeable or neutral. As of yet, I've come to no conclusion about whether this is the act of a polite townie or cautious scum, which is why I didn't want to share so soon.

DarkClaymore

DarkClaymore's answer to my question about a hypothetical Night 0 kill went above and beyond my expectations for the amount of thought a player would put into the question. I got a lot of the predictable "kill the most experienced player" answers and a lot of agreement, but DarkCavalier took the question and considered various answers from every angle, including whether the IC or SEs were scum and who they would kill. He also mentions the WiFoM aspect to his own answers. I was going to keep track of his posting style to see whether he's just smart and talkative, or if he tends to over-analyze things; doing so would have helped me determine whether he's an engaged townie or over-analytical scum, which is why I didn't want to share so soon.

[Honest Abel]

I also request that before someone hammers me, we each share our reads and thoughts on every other player before the Day phase ends. This will be helpful to look back on in subsequent days.

Also, I just realized that the vote count was posted by cavjj and not the mod, and I thought one of those players withdrew their vote for me. I'll check in a second. If the vote count is wrong, I may suspect cavjj for attempting (successfully) to draw out my premature thoughts.

[Honest Abel]

Okay, there were unvotes of I Am Innocent, but not I Am Innocent unvoting me, so the vote count is correct. Please don't hammer until you share reads of other players. There's too little information in the thread to move on to the next phase, in my opinion.

[Honest Abel]

Ok so your first post contained:

Let's skip the stupid discussion about how odds are slim I was chosen to be mafia on both rolls, shall we?

You did talk about that and said you DON'T think that that means you have less chance. I don't know whether it was just joking around while being in the random stages to create discussion, but regardless of what you thought about it, why even mention it? You are asking us, not to talk about the possibility of you being scum, that's what it boils down to.

I wasn't asking you not to talk about the possibility of me being scum. I was asking you not to talk about the

reduced

possibility of me being scum. Because the possibility isn't reduced. Only two people made a point about it in spite of me: dicknose, and, knowing him, I believe he was simply pulling my leg; and you, who QFT'd his post.

Your next paragraph makes very little sense to me, so excuse me for breaking it up part by part:

They were admittedly pros and cons of trying to force your hand.As you said yourself, putting scum under pressure is one of the best strategies available citing a game where not once did you actually have to lie.

So the pro was to pressure me, and the con was to make me share premature thoughts? I don't know if "forcing my hand" actually pressured me to do something, since I said upfront that I would share my premature thoughts if put at L-1 (I think it's necessary to put everything on the table while I still have a chance to contribute). That's just doing what I want to do on my terms, so you didn't actually add any pressure. It is good that you are conversing with me, though.

If you are scum, the way I see it, you've given people on here an oppertunity (which I took) to put yourself under pressure.

I do invite any pressure that anyone wants to put on me. I don't care how sloppy the pressure makes me, because I have nothing to hide or lie about.

I was looking for a slip to be honest.

And what did you find?

I would rather go for an early successful scum lynch early on through gut instinct and risk losing a VT if that means that we have one less scum embedding themselves into the game, gathering... "supporters" (for want of a better word)

This is something I often think about, too. Because the more someone talks, the more explaining and defending that person can do. I don't know about anyone else, but I am usually pretty sympathetic in those situations and am easy swayed, or at least made to hesitate, by explanations. So sometimes, an early scum read is a good thing to lynch on, but it takes a lot of the detective work out of the game.

The other reason, I wanted to press you and why I'm suspicious is your treatment of the random questions at the start of the game. You aren't bothered about who has played where or how many times and whatever else, but some people are. At least one person is, they asked the question. The way I look at it; if every question, no matter how mundane, who it was asked by (and what role that person I think might have) was answered, we gain more information and it makes it easier to find who is a VT and who isn't. If I think you are a scum and you ask a question, I will still want to see it answered by the group/person you asked it to. I don't think I'll be alone with that stance.

I admitted as much in my first criticism of it; other may find it useful, but I don't particularly find those questions interesting or useful to me. I understand the social aspect. It was merely a preamble to asking my own question.

But, you wanted to get right down to the thick of it. I actually thought in my head, reading the post "He's looking for PR's". Are you looking for PR's to save yourself? Or because you are Scum?

I'm looking for power roles? What does my question have to do with power roles? I'm neither scum nor trying to save myself. I'm trying to help town win the game. In other words, lynch me if you want, but give me an opportunity to leave what I think is an adequate amount of good info to be used later in the game.

Apologies for leaving at this point but I will be back on later.

No need to apologize; thanks for unvoting and talking to me.

[Honest Abel]

Did you really expect to be hammered here? Something about this post seems off to me. I feel a town-sided player would be a bit more indignant about being close to lynched for having put in as much effort as you have thus far.

I wasn't expecting to be hammered; I was merely saying what needed to be said in case someone suddenly showed up with the intent to hammer (and lacking the intent to inform me/anyone first). It takes quite a lot to get me indignant or flustered, and it's not going to happen just from adding votes on my name or bringing me to L-1. I'm merely sticking to the town agenda and making what I think are helpful posts as long as I'm alive.

I feel like you

knew

you weren't actually going to be hammered on page 3 here and that you are just trying to fake keep your cool here. Why is that?

Are you asking me why you feel the way you do? Are you asking me how I knew I wasn't going to be hammered? Are you asking me whether I'm pretending to keep my cool or not? Please clarify.

[Honest Abel]

EbWoDP:

Did you really expect to be hammered here? Something about this post seems off to me. I feel a town-sided player would be a bit more indignant about being close to lynched for having put in as much effort as you have thus far.

I wasn't expecting to be hammered; I was merely saying what needed to be said in case someone suddenly showed up with the intent to hammer (and lacking the intent to inform me/anyone first). It takes quite a lot to get me indignant or flustered, and it's not going to happen just from adding votes on my name or bringing me to L-1. I'm merely sticking to the town agenda and making what I think are helpful posts as long as I'm alive.

I feel like you

knew

you weren't actually going to be hammered on page 3 here and that you are just trying to fake keep your cool here. Why is that?

Are you asking me why you feel the way you do? Are you asking me how I knew I wasn't going to be hammered? Are you asking me whether I'm pretending to keep my cool or not? Please clarify.[/quote]

[Honest Abel]

August 17th, 2011 3pm PST

It's actually Daylight Savings Time in the United States, so that should read PDT for accuracy.

The accuracy comes in looking at the linked timer I've provided for you. Most mods aren't that accommodating.

[Honest Abel]

I have seen not once how a scum who sees that people vote him/her starts writing very long replies with various reasons and deep explanations. I suppose this is their way to gain the favor of others and show that not only they contribute a lot, but also good thinkers. I'll never forget how I let one like this to slip away in one of the games I played elsewhere.

Doesn't your long-winded response to my question also fit that description? Why put so much effort into answering a question that you yourself described as "rather pointless"? You're showing us that you are a good thinker, but you did it by applying your analytic skills to a hypothetical situation rather than something that has a real bearing on the present game.

Of course, you didn't have any votes on you, so you'd say that there was no pressure to avert. But seeing as you're so aware of the premise, your early post could have been a preemptive defense.

[Honest Abel]

I'm not trying to argue that DarkClaymore is actually acting scummy, because I think a town player could have had reasons to do what we're talking about, too. I'm just pointing out that he's guilty of possibly a worse thing than what he believes I've done; if he's town, that should clue him into the idea that townies can/should want to appear town.

When you analyze a behavior or attitude, you can't just ask yourself whether or not scum would act or feel a certain way. You have to also consider whether or not townies would act or feel a certain way. There are things that both townies and scum would possibly do, even though the reasons are different. True scumminess is discovered when you find an action that scum would do but townies wouldn't do, and there should be some kind of causally-connected justification for that action.

[Honest Abel]

I don't think scum would cast a random vote as I did, because apparently it gathers attention which is the opposite of what they want.

It's not like you knew it would garner attention before you did it. I don't think it makes any sense at all to say that no scum would do what you did, not to mention that's quite a suspicious assertion to make.

Okay, but note that you can change your vote whenever you want and sometimes the best way to determine someone's allignment is by voting them.

I know. Just old roots from EpicMafia, where a random vote must be given a reason or you will be lynched.

He wasn't talking about random voting anymore, he was talking about why you were so shy about voting for me despite your suspicions.

Also, in regards to the D0 kill WIFOM, I didn't even think about it that way. It never occured to me, that's the honest truth. Also, in the D0 kill scenario, would PRs get a chance to perform their night actions? Cause Doc/Jail would probably be on the most experienced players so that would change the mentality behind it a bit.

Fluff.

[Honest Abel]

I don't think scum would cast a random vote as I did, because apparently it gathers attention which is the opposite of what they want.

It's not like you knew it would garner attention before you did it. I don't think it makes any sense at all to say that no scum would do what you did, not to mention that's quite a suspicious assertion to make.

I didn't say no scum would. I'm saying it's not a scumtell cause a person on either side would do it.

That may be what you think you said, but it's certainly not what you said. You've backtracked and said something absolutely different. Not digging it. Scummy.

He wasn't talking about random voting anymore, he was talking about why you were so shy about voting for me despite your suspicions.

Wasn't thinking. I hesitated because I thought you were scum, but wasn't absolutely sure. When others shared my view, it coaxed me a bit to vote. Not mindless sheeping, just a group reassurance.

This isn't the first time you've been swayed by the crowd. It's not even the first time you've

admitted

being swayed by the crowd before anyone even accuses you of anything. Are you going to continue the rest of the game going "I know this looks scummy, but I'm doing it anyway"?

Also, in regards to the D0 kill WIFOM, I didn't even think about it that way. It never occured to me, that's the honest truth. Also, in the D0 kill scenario, would PRs get a chance to perform their night actions? Cause Doc/Jail would probably be on the most experienced players so that would change the mentality behind it a bit.

Fluff.

Fine. Then we'll drop it.

So after all of the flak you gave for how my question was irrelevant, you suddenly find it interesting enough to ruminate on it and then simply drop it entirely after I say one word? Good for dropping it, but the way you're giving in to every little assertion now and every sway of the group seems to be right in the vein of what whilst has been accused of, only worse. It's quite an inexplicable change of character, isn't it?

[Honest Abel]

That's a good explanation to give to stubborn no-lynch advocates in addition to all the other benefits of lynching.

P.S. My vote stands. I'm convinced enough. Is anyone else interested in having a go at BBmolla? Anyone interested in critiquing my line of questioning/reasoning?

[Honest Abel]

Your reasoning is fine, but I also feel that BBmolla's responses are adequate.

I think you need to develop a more critical eye. Having been a poet and been in workshops, I understand exactly where you're coming from; it's easy to come up with reasons why anything is sufficient. But you need a more discerning opinion sometimes. It's especially useful in a game like this where nothing is certain and those who are guilty are going to give sufficient answers. You need to be able to, or at least attempt to, tell the difference between significance and that which is merely sufficient. I'm not trying to be rough on you. I asked you to play games on this site because I know you're interested and can use some experience, as can I.

As easy as it is to retract a "lynch", I am just not comfortable with leaving my lynch vote on a player who I am not 85% convinced to be mafia aligned.

I think that's too high of a standard, especially for Day 1. You may never be that certain of a player's alignment so long as you play this game. And even when you think you are, there's bound to be a situation in which you're wrong anyway. I say lighten up a bit and take some risks. I'm fully behind the play-to-win philosophy, but you have to consider that it's only a game and you're allowed to be a bit ballsy since we're not actually killing people here.

[Honest Abel]

So cavjj, why did you hammer? Remember when I said people should be sharing their thoughts on all other players before the day ends because it's very useful later? Did you not want anyone to do that? You ended the Day very abruptly, and did not give a fair warning of your intent to hammer. Explain your big rush to lynch BBmolla.

It's also fitting that Scumhunter was killed overnight considering his most substantial post was about how silly it is to bring people to L-1 so early in the Day, and he warned of people using any dumb excuse to hammer and end the day prematurely. This was about the L-1 on me, but it applies just as much to the BBmolla case:

There is absolutely no reason for anyone to be at L-1 this early. There are other ways to pressure people. One of these days I'm going to be scum have a cop-read on someone who is at L-1 and hammer away to waste a ML and kill a pr d1. I mean do the people voting Abel "actually" want a lynch to go through right now? No. Of course you don't. So why are you voting him to L-1? It's obviously for "pressure" but it seems an unnecessary step and can only lead to a sad outcome if a true newbie/scum hammers.

For those of you saying, oh no one is newbie enough to hammer here (yes you are probably right, but is it really worth the risk, a newbie town hammering another town would cost us 2 ML!)

Pretty pathetic that this was discussed so bluntly and it still ended up happening. What do you have to say about this, cavjj? It also strikes me that Scumhunter's promise to you to become more involved in the game could have been a determining factor in his demise:

@cavjj, Yes, you could call my usual behavior during RVS/early day 1 lurking. I will become very engaged in the game as we progress here.

Well, cavjj, let's hear it.

[Honest Abel]

I'm also just going to point this out now since it's fairly obvious and it's bound to come out anyway. Let's compare both day 1 bandwagons:

Honest Abel (4):

I Am Innocent

,

Dark Claymore

,

BBmolla

,

cavjj

BBmolla (5):

Scumhunter

, Honest Abel,

I Am Innocent

,

Dark Claymore

,

cavjj

[Honest Abel]

cavjj, I don't have time right now to read your whole posts or anyone else's posts, but I want to respond to one thing I glanced at. You said that the mafia are trying to make you look bad somehow. How is this possible, considering you were the last vote on both bandwagons? You were the one who controlled where you appeared on the bandwagon both times. How could they preemptively make you look bad not knowing you would follow the vote? Or why didn't you realize this possibility before you voted?

[Honest Abel]

Ah, my bad. Really shouldn't post without reading. I will be back later with appropriate responses and a couple more questions.

[Honest Abel]

Actually I have a momentary lapse in work at the moment. Here are my thoughts on your first response to me:

Sure, five people voted for BBmolla. Only one person hammered him. Hammered him preemptively, abruptly ending the day. I'm sure Scumhunter had the same idea as me, which was voting for BBmolla to pressure him into answering questions, etc. I'm not so sure about the rest of the votes, except for you, because you hammered. Hammering means you think that person is scum and you want to lynch them. I did not want to lynch BBmolla, at least not so quickly. I can't speak for the others, but this should be enough to show you that you can't defend your hammer to me by pointing out that four other people voted for BBmolla as well, especially considering one of them is proven town and one of them is me.

I said that I think about it as well. I don't ever act on it. I by far prefer detective work over just lynching whoever based on gut and hoping the odds are in our favor. I didn't think your preference for gut meant that you would hammer given the first opportunity without thinking about it. Maybe I Am Scum and DarkClaymore did.

I "left my vote on BBmolla at L-1" because WHEN I LEFT, HE WAS AT L-2. As SOON as I saw DarkClaymore's vote in the morning, I went to unvote without reading any further. Of course, when I scrolled down, I saw that you hammered him without giving me a chance to remove my vote or giving ANYONE a chance to think about it further. I'm not convinced that you are scum yet, but I am convinced that the mislynch is your fault. Please don't try to deny that, at least. You should not be standing by what you did. It was bad play. It was preemptive, rushed, and you didn't give anyone a chance to back off. My vote was a pressure vote, not a "I'm certain this guy is scum, let's lynch!" vote. Am I supposed to remove my votes on people every night before I go to bed fearing that they're going to be lynched before I wake up? That's stupid, but it looks like that's the way it's going to have to be if you think you were in the right there.

Busy again, be back in a bit.

[Honest Abel]

Quick response to I Am Innocent after skimming: I'm not so much concerned with how scummy your votes were, although your vote on BBmolla left a bad taste in my mouth. The real funny part is that your buddy, DarkClaymore, gives you away both times by following your votes with bad reasoning.

[Honest Abel]

Maybe you should have a talk with him about that Night 2.

[Honest Abel]

Oh wait, one of you is going to be lynched by then.

VOTE: I Am Innocent

[Honest Abel]

I Am Innocent and DarkClaymore's pretended cluelessness about why Scumhunter was killed is laughable. Lesser reason: It makes cavjj look a little scummy. Greater reason: Doc definitely wouldn't be protecting Scumhunter. This happens in almost every mafia game I've seen. Nobody goes for the obvious kill on the first night because the potential doctor will protect the obvious kill. Also, nobody would be going after the IC after my question about N0, would they?

[Honest Abel]

Let's get this out of the way: If you were mafia, who would you have killed N1 and why?

[Honest Abel]

He's going to hate me for saying this, but yeah, whilst is pretty bad. I agree with you about Napoleon, whilst, but answer dicknose's questions please.

I would have killed a random person, probably. I generally think killing someone who appears to be smart but definitely won't be docblocked is the way to go, and Scumhunter fits that description. I wouldn't have killed anyone who seems inexperienced or who looked scummy on Day 1 either. Therefore, I would have killed Scunhunter or I Am Innocent, assuming that I were scum and he weren't, which I'm not and he is.

Agreed about posting levels in this game so far. Day 1's lynch was not a good thing mostly because nobody had contributed enough to the game for us to move on to a new day. I have no idea who I would have preferred to lynch instead. Nobody on that timeline. I was already growing weary of I Am Innocent and DarkClaymore Day 1, but I don't know if I would have been ready to lynch them then, and I'm probably not entirely ready to lynch them now either. I want discussion. I do not want lynches a mere day after the game begins.

DC, I didn't say I'm sure we have a doc. None of that is wine (WIFOM for new players, look it up on the wiki). It's merely taking into account the facts and possibilities and making the most logical decision based on it. It's not wine to consider that there may be a doctor and to kill someone other than the obvious choice. Drop the wine talk. You couldn't tell a pinot noir from a malbec.

[Honest Abel]

Or a pinot noir from a riesling for that matter. Or wine from grape juice. Or grapes from watermelons.

[Honest Abel]

I'm just being playful. Do you have any actual thoughts on my point?

[Honest Abel]

I'm going to agree with cavjj at the moment since it's more likely that he was set up and used for his eagerness to lynch. The wagon on me was pretty much a test run. When they saw that cavjj would jump on that, they probably assumed he would jump on BBmolla, too. And they were right.

DarkClaymore is definitely scummy. It looks like I Am Innocent would be the obvious partner at this point. Both have been using very weak reasoning. But DarkClaymore is much more obviously scummy right now. The only thing that affects my idea that IAI and DC are buddies is that I can't see IAI having any hand in the foolishness that was killing Scumhunter in order to frame cavjj. DC is going after cavjj now despite the fact that a smarter scum would have backed off and come up with a plan B after I outed plan A. DarkClaymore is newbscum blowing it.

UNVOTE: I Am Innocent
VOTE: DarkClaymore

PLEASE DO NOT HAMMER WHILE I AM ABSENT. If things get to L-1 again, I expect any potential hammerer to declare his/her intent to hammer and wait 24 hours before doing it, or until it's o.k.'d. While DarkClaymore is my best bet right now and I want to put more pressure on him, I do still have other plans for Day 2 and you should too, whoever you are. We need to hear more from other people. A lot more.

[Honest Abel]

I will give both a detailed analysis and a clear, concise summary of DarkClaymore later tonight if nothing comes up.

[Honest Abel]

cavjj is new, inexperienced. It almost... makes sense that he did what he did, considering who he is and how he thinks. I don't find that scummy at all. You do have to consider whether or not he's smarter than he's letting on. But I think the fact that he reconciled and admitted his hammer was a mistake is probably a good sign that he's newbtown. I will not be a part of a cavjj lynch unless either DarkClaymore or I Am Innocent turn up town. And I don't think they will.

[Honest Abel]

DarkClaymore, the whole enchilada

First of all, this guy only has 10 posts, which would be scummy in itself if so many other people hadn't been contributing just as little. So let's take a look at how newbscum can condemn themselves in just 10 posts:

#13: First double vote in the game; follows IAI's lead in voting for me, even though giving a "random" reason.

#43: Confesses hate/hopelessness for Day 1; thinks there's nothing to be learned. Plenty of town players have said this in the past, but it's not a very good attitude, and when paired with his idea later that Day 1 actually needs to end as fast as possible, it's a suspect attitude.

He also confirms his random vote on me with a non-random reason: my posts are too long and too reasonable. Apparently this is a scum pattern to him.

#48: He answers my question with a long post detailing the answer to the question from every possible perspective. It makes me view #43 as stating something that

he

is afraid of doing when scum, since he clearly does it here. #48 goes beyond the realm of reason and gets too deep into a hypothetical realm. He also brings up WIFOM in his rambling. I don't see the use of talking about WIFOM, and I have the impression that it's something newbscum bring up just to make the whole game seem very confusing and uncertain. This again goes with his hopeless D1 attitude earlier.

#71: Explains further the backwards idea that people who are reasonable are scum. Says it's because of a game he played once where he let someone slip away. Irrelevant/fluff.

#90: Says that the "kill the most experienced player" option is wrong. I repeat, he says it's wrong. Also whining about wanting D1 to end, so he puts BBmolla at L-1, listing his only reason as "I've seen cases where 'two townies gunning at each other' has been proven false." Just hilariously weak reasoning to be giving for putting someone at L-1. He even admits it's not a solid reason, but... votes anyway. Perhaps just to follow the lead of his more experienced buddy, I Am Innocent.

#121: "Oh no, he got us" comment is trying way too hard to look unaffected. Predictably, he goes on to accuse cavjj both of hammering scummily and trying to make him and IAI look bad. He then brings up WIFOM again to talk about the night kill, which is meant to make it appear indecipherable. Useless. Now he's saying that "I still would have chosen the IC." Still, huh? Compare to #90 when he says the response of killing the IC is "wrong." He then votes for the IC for not dying, because according to his own crazy rambling on the subject, anyone dying but the IC means the IC is guilty. Love it.

#127: "I'd post more if I had anything decent to say." Lack of anything decent to say is scummy. Quotes my post and erroneously asks me why I'm sure we have a doc. Also speculates about IC being doc or PR. Rolefishing. Brings up wine again, erroneously. Hints to us that they rolecopped Jester instead of killing him, obviously because they didn't want to risk having a doctor protect him. Says there's a high chance of mislynch on D1, which apparently is his reason for not even trying. Again points fingers at cavjj.

#131: Votes me in RVS style for insulting him playfully. This is D2, RVS ended a while ago.

#134: Confirms my idea that they rolecopped Jester and killed someone else to avoid the doc. Says he forgot the 2of4 rolecop mechanic. Commenting on the "challenge" this game provides and acting up to it seems to be more excuse to act unaffected by my pressure on him. He "guesses" he'll vote for cavjj because his awkward defenses make it look like he planned the hammer/excuses all along? What? Criticizing his poor excuses yet saying they're good enough to have been planned? DC has voted a lot of people and even lynched someone, but hasn't given one good reason yet.

#136: Defends his poor reasoning in cavjj vote with "You never know! Cookie monster!"

I will summarize shortly. I need a break/dinner.

[Honest Abel]

Very interesting since you had a vote on BBmolla yourself and even asked the group "Is anyone else interested in having a go at BBmolla?" the post preceding my vote.

So what exactly "left a bad taste in [your] mouth"

The fact that you didn't have a go at BBmolla. You voted for him, you didn't pressure him or anything. The fact that you used my scumhunting on him as an excuse to vote for him with no reason of your own. Don't taunt me by implying I don't have any reasons to back up my assertions (I see your sarcastic quotes there, buddy!). It will never be true.

So DarKClaymore gave me away, which means he must be scum moreso than me. Or in other words, my scumminess depends on him, right???

Yet you vote me first. Can you explain the thought process there?

Your scumminess doesn't necessarily depend on him. It could depend on cavjj. But you have two newbs following you on two bandwagons that you didn't have any good reason for being on (granted, first bandwagon was a random vote from you; being followed by the same two people both times doesn't seem quite as random, however). That's awfully suspect. I voted you first because I thought you might show up and try to be the big man in town supporting why cavjj is a big scummo for hammering, even though odds are you used his itch to end D1 as fast as possible to your advantage.

Re: Underlined, that could be said about many players. So why scumhunter amongst the other players not named wicked. I don't know why, he definitely was not the most townie of other players D1. That was my point.

I thought about this after an earlier post of mine, but now's a good time to bring it up. If I were scum, and I were not me, following my earlier criteria I would have killed either Scumhunter, you, or me. Considering hypothetically for a moment that you are scum, I believe you would have chosen Scumhunter over me. Even though he and I were on the mislynch bandwagon with you, I gave a lot more reasoning about it than he did why BBmolla was scum. Meaning I have more potential to be misleading, meaning I'm more useful kept alive. It's clear that I was wrong. I would have used such a thing to my advantage if I were scum, too. And in fact, I did in Newbie 1092, where the IC Thor665 was completely leading the game around, but was actually totally wrong about everything. That's the kind of guy you keep alive. Thaaaaat's me! At least I hope only for D1.

[Honest Abel]

Oh, right, the other thing I wanted to mention is that I switched my vote to DarkClaymore simply because he was here and talking for a bit. I pressure the people who are here. I like conversing when people are here to converse with me. I will gladly switch it back to you if that's what you'd prefer, but let's not trouble the mod more than we need, eh?

[Honest Abel]

The more I think about this line of questioning, the more I think it does more damage than good.

I want to hear if our IC agrees

, but here is one case in point:

Also, nobody would be going after the IC after my question about N0, would they?

Did this give free rein for the scum to take out anyone not named Wicked N1? Would it benefit the scum team greatly to put it in the head of any doc that they would be crazy not to protect the IC?

Glad you found the time to respond to only that part of the post. That was my Purposely Weak Argument. Ding ding ding.

I was already growing weary of I Am Innocent and DarkClaymore Day 1

Really, I saw no sign of this...can you please point to any of your posts that show this?

You weren't supposed to see any sign of this. Need I bring Napoleon back to life? I wouldn't have mentioned it at all that early in D2 if the vote counts weren't so damn obvious. I was planning to go after cavjj and see how you guys responded. Anyway, DC is voting on cavjj and you list him among your only two suspects along with your buddy. Isn't that a pretty common tell, by the way?

I saw you pushing BBmolla instead. If you were growing weary of us, why did you not unvote BBmolla? Your story is just not lining up correctly.

Already explained this. If I were around to unvote BBmolla at L-1, I would have. I found your vote very offputting, but went to sleep hoping you'd talk more or something else of value would happen. Instead we have your buddy following you again and newbtown rushing the hammer.

Your weak line of defense and counterattack isn't doing you any favors, here.

[Honest Abel]

I guess it's called Deliberately Weak Argument, sorry.

[Honest Abel]

Voting for someone is not pressuring him if you don't give reasons. I don't care about your slew of reasons because you never brought them up and now never will have to. The "vote first and give reasons later" attitude seems useless. You're also defending yourself by saying you do what you're criticizing me of doing, which is suspecting someone without revealing your intentions right away. Seems like a conflict of interests there.

On a related now, how are #166 or #167 protown? Not seeing it. You're talking about yourself in an almost totally tangential manner.

[Honest Abel]

I don't think using cavjj is really off. You had no reason to bring yet another player to L-1. You actively ignored Scumhunter's criticism of it and whoever else agreed with him by doing it AGAIN. cavjj discussed his intent to hammer and progress the day as quickly as possible. You expressed the same reasoning as he did earlier, probably to make him feel like he had someone who agreed with him there. Bringing someone to L-1 for bad reasons after it was already revealed to be a dumb tactic so early and knowing that someone hammer hungry was there all adds up to using cavjj. What's so "off" about that?

We're going to take a good look at your "reasons" for voting people in a little while, and I'll even throw in some reasons why other people voted for other people just to show the difference between poor voting and good voting.

[Honest Abel]

I have a terrible headache and I'm busy at work, so I won't be contributing much today until later tonight. Just want to say I never take into consideration how my activity will make me a target at Night. I don't care about that. I prefer long days so I can contribute as much as possible knowing that every Day could be my last. That's a big part of why wanting any Day to end quickly is anti-town/scummy. Because it means you're okay with the fact that it could be your last Day and you still don't want to contribute anything. Or it just means you're scum.

[Honest Abel]

I didn't push a lynch, I left my vote on BBmolla because I was in the middle of pressuring/pursuing him. Not once did I say "Let's lynch this guy." Already explained that. Also already explained why I showed no inkling of my suspicion. I also didn't say you pushed the BBmolla wagon. I said you joined it for no good reason, your buddy followed, and a newbtown who was obviously dying to hammer hammered.

What you're saying to me is not scumhunting or protown. Your responses are weak attempts at counterattack. You are not advancing your case. You are repeating things and attempting to twist them a little more each time. This is scummy behavior.

It's not suspicious that I would make known my concerns before Day 1 ended when it ended far ahead of schedule. I didn't know it would end mere hours after I went to bed. Already explained this.

You and the explanation are completely different entities. It wasn't even your explanation. You quoted something someone else said. Which is scummy on its own because it's an attempt to make you look like your'e contributing something when really you're just quoting other games.

Again, FoSing me and trying to make me look scummy with poor/twisted reasons and selective quoting is just making you look worse. But please, don't stop just because I say so.

[Honest Abel]

What is the reason that I'm your target other than the fact that I'm pointing out your scumminess? None that I can see. Your posts aren't protown. You are not scumhunting me. You're just trying to make me look bad so that you can look better. Pretty sure even newbs can see through that.

[Honest Abel]

UNVOTE: DarkClaymore

Because I Am Innocent and I are having fun. Plus, too many other people need to contribute more before the end of the Day. I will be willing to lynch DarkClaymore after that happens, as it stands. But it doesn't need to get that close yet.

[Honest Abel]

DC, you're actually saying that you've been intentionally scummy? So you won't get killed at night? What is the use? Do you really think you're of more value to the town than anyone else playing that you need to be the one who's kept alive until the end of the game?

[Honest Abel]

I Am Innocent: thoughts on DarkClaymore ASAP.

[Honest Abel]

If you like observing situations like this, read other games where it happens. You're not helping town. You're actually hurting town by appearing scummy if you are a townie. Stop defending your actions as though they make sense in some way. They don't. Start helping the town or you're getting lynched.

[Honest Abel]

Also, where is Wickedestjr? Dude hasn't posted in a day and only has five posts total. Seems like he is really preoccupied with his other newbie game and a mini game. Why do people stretch themselves so thin like that? I wouldn't mind getting a replacement for him since he hasn't really contributed anything anyway. I'm sure he's going to keep posting now and then to avoid prod, but it's really not fair not to have an active IC.

[Honest Abel]

@DC: So how has playing lynchbait helped you, and how are you planning to us it to help town?

IAI, I'm leaving work now, so I'll respond to your tedious arguments in a little while, pal.

[Honest Abel]

"I'm convinced enough" - Sounds like this was your number 1 suspect at the moment, not the 2 players D2 you claim you were wary of at this point...

I'm convinced enough to leave my vote on him. Which is why I said "I'm convinced enough" right after saying "My vote stands."

"Is anyone else interested in having a go at BBmolla?" - I read that and still read that as you are pushing the BBmolla lynch. Especially following "I'm convinced enough"

Have a go, meaning put some pressure on him, ask some questions. Basically, do what I did. Not vote for him without reason without adding pressure or asking him questions. It was not an invitation for you to jump on the bandwagon for no reason.

But you did not even hint that you had other suspicions. That combined with the quote above from you conflicts with everything you are saying D2 about me and DC. That is why I find you scummy.

What is your fascination with hints? I found you scummy toward the end of D1, found you scummy while I reread the thread during N1, and find you scummy today. And I've explained why. A hint on D1 would have added nothing of value to my case on you. You're merely pointing it out that I didn't leave a hint to add a flavor of a lie to my case, which adds up to nothing more than irrelevant slander. Again, you're aiming to make me look bad to make yourself look better, not aiming for the truth. You are not being protown.

Oh, and a great scumtell is trying to berate a town player/town player argument. See below for repeated underlined examples of that:

I really don't understand what you're saying here, and your examples don't speak for themselves. Explain more 1. what you mean and 2. why it's a great scumtell and 3. how it's relevant and 4. how you're using it to help the town, and perhaps you'll give us all a better understanding of how I'm a terrible, anti-town player and you're saving the day. Otherwise, I don't have any faith in you as town.

I'd also like to point out that while you are making it look like you're taking personal offense to my posts, there is no reason for it. If I were to say that some of dicknoses posts aren't protown, he would probably figure out why and begin to do something else that was protown. I know he would do this because I'm confident that he's town. I'm not criticizing your gameplay or intelligence. I'm merely pointing out that you are not helping the town and the way you chose not to help the town has a particularly scummy scent to it.

[Honest Abel]

More scumtell examples of you berating me and my scumhunting abilities.

I wouldn't berate your scumhunting abilities if you were scumhunting. You're not. You're merely replying to me and countering my reads on you by trying to find irrelevant flaws in my arguments aimed to make me look bad.

[Honest Abel]

As far as I'm concerned, the only thing holding this Day back from proceeding is the fact that Wickedestjr needs to share his input. I'm prepared to lynch either I Am Innocent or DarkClaymore, preferably in that order. I Am Innocent is being outrageously scummy, whereas DarkClaymore is being outrageously scummy but has the excuse of being a newb. I'd also prefer to kill the brains of the operation rather than the lackey, so that the subsequent mafia actions won't be quite as well-planned.

[Honest Abel]

Your viewpoint could change when Wickedestjr joins in for (at least) a few pages of conversation. Don't convince yourself of only suspecting I Am Innocent and DarkClaymore.

Hey, that was my point.

Also, we shouldn't lynch anyone until

at least

next week (real time). That should help make up for the lack of Day 1 progress.

Then again, I think at a certain point, things begin to regress. I'd say we were nearing the pinnacle of a good time to lynch if not for Wickedestjr.

[Honest Abel]

I Am Innocent: thoughts on DarkClaymore ASAP.

Started the Day as my #2 suspect, currently #3 based on your acting more scummy.

That's it? No reasons why he's scummy and why I'm scummier than him?

[Honest Abel]

I think it would actually be beneficial later on if people gave reads on

all

the players in the game with a little blurb about them. I will definitely be doing this for posterity once I can get an idea of Wickedestjr.

[Honest Abel]

Okay, this is what I promised earlier: let's take a look at the reasons, or lack of reason, DarkClaymore gives for voting what he's voted.

Vote on BBmolla

Honestly, I just want D1 to end and hopefully N1 will give us more info to work with. So I'll just join the wagon. Also, when people tend to see two players arguing, they often say "Nah. It's probably two townies gunning at each other". But I have seen cases in which it was proven false. While not too much of a solid reason, at least it still is a reason.

VOTE: BBmolla

Summary: He wants D1 to end, and

sometimes

"two townies gunning at each other" turns out to be false. Self-evidently poor reasoning. He also admits it's a bad reason, which makes it weird that he later says he always gives good reasons for his votes.

Vote on Wickedestjr

So the IC wasn't killed. Wine or scum?

Maybe now we should ask "Who would you have killed during the night?".
I still would have chosen the IC. Based on the given answers here to the similar question before, I doubt the mafia would have attempted to use the same logic I used when answering the question (which was: trying to frame the IC by not killing him). Simply because it looked like I'd be the only one who'd think in this direction. And I doubt they have any reason to mislead a sole individual from the town who others find suspicious anyway.

Hence, since you weren't killed even though you should have been:
VOTE: Wickedestjr

Summary: He uses his own fluff logic about the IC surviving to point a finger at the IC, despite the fact that the IC hasn't even been participating. Not to mention the fact that his original response to the N0 question was that "killing the IC is wrong."

Vote on Honest Abel

VOTE: Honest Abel

For insulting

Summary: Random-voting style vote on D2? Weird. Also an OMGUS vote because it was merely retaliatory in nature.

Vote on cavjj

I guess I'll go with
VOTE: cavjj

It's true that the whole hammering thing makes him an obvious target, something scum shouldn't do, but he tried to defend himself in very awkward ways. This make it impossible for me to ignore the possibility he planned to use all these excuses from the beginning in order to clear himself latter on

Yeah,weak but I don't think anyone here got anything solid anyway

Summary: He says that cavjj's excuses seem planned, but criticizes how awkward they are in the same sentence. Contradictory, not good reasoning. He again admits that it's weak reasoning, yet somehow tells me later that he's had good reasons to vote for people.

[Honest Abel]

Oh god, this guy.

Hey NS.

[Honest Abel]

I'm going to do a quick ranking of players. Toward the top is more town, toward the bottom is more scum. Above the first line is town, between the two lines is neutral, and below the second line is scum. I'll also give blurbs later. Nobody special is obviously riding on Wickedestjr's laurels there, as neutral as they are.

dicknose
whilst
————————
Nobody Special
cavjj
————————
DarkClaymore
I Am Innocent

I can picture scumteam of either I Am Innocent & DarkClaymore or I Am Innocent & cavjj. On their own, though, DarkClaymore has been scummy and cavjj has seemed genuinely newbtown but should still be held with some suspicion for his actions.

[Honest Abel]

Why would cavjj put me at L-1? Just to get scolded about it? Nah. He acted the same toward me as he acted toward BBmolla, who is confirmed town. I don't think a cavjj/Abel case will amount to anything, but go through it if you must.

Also, I didn't really intend to defend him. I intended to attack him to see how IAI and DC would act. The only thing you could call a defense of cavjj is me saying that I don't think he's actually as scummy as I originally made him out to be.

As to you hoping that looking for reactions is a part of my strategy to IAI and DC, it always was. The cavjj thing should now be obvious. Also, take a look back at my Deliberately Weak Argument and how IAI took the bait.

[Honest Abel]

Looks like you're more concerned with making dicknose look stupid than in posting anything thoughtful or uncovering the truth.

VOTE: DarkClaymore

[Honest Abel]

He's been doing the same thing in my Open game. I wouldn't expect any input from him any time soon or ever.

[Honest Abel]

I think he's just trying to join every active game, not play in any of them.

[Honest Abel]

DarkClaymore, you've thrown more half-assed accusations at me last night than I can count.

Please summarize your case against me

if you truly have one and cite sources. No more of this "well one time this thing happened and this guy turned out to be scum..." nonsense. Just stop, it's irrelevant, especially if you can't muster up the effort to cite. And please do it like you actually care about the result of the game and aren't just here to act scummy and see how it turns out.

NS, I would appreciate it if you caught up in this game and started doing some active scumhunting and made some decisions. You have no idea how frustrating it is to have to wait on one guy in a game when there's pretty much bundles of evidence to lynch one way or another.

[Honest Abel]

It's NOT irrelevant. As I said, I prefer to follow repetitive patterns rather than all these obvious reasons that never hit scum. You fit quite a few of them:

1) Long posts.
2) Arguing strongly with some specific individuals while leaving others alone and hardly gunning at them.
4) Protecting a townie, or at the very least strongly stressing how you believe he is town. This is my main one and is the strongest reason I'm ever willing to follow in mafia games (aside of cop claim).
5) Ridiculing everything I say and making it appear as useless and dumb. This I'm not sure whatever is a repetitive pattern or not as I have seen it only once so far but might as well test it with this game.

Thanks for putting the effort in to make a list. However, I have a pot of problems with this:

1. I make long posts, but they all have clear protown points. Even if I slip a joke or some irrelevant fluff into my posts, they are usually 95% pointed and purposeful, either to pressure or advance reasoning. I defy you to make a good case otherwise.
2. I'm arguing strongly with the individuals I find scummy. If I were to suddenly find someone else scummy or confusing, I would pressure that individual. But nobody has stepped forward with that appearance other than you, IAI, and cavjj, in my opinion. I can think of perfectly town reasons why dicknose and whilst are saying the things they say, even if they're not the best players. When I find them suspect, I will whittle them down to nothing to discover what lies underneath, trust me. I'm also focusing on you because you have been around the most and have contributed, uncontested, the largest amount of anti-town material in the game and continue to do so.
4. (or 3 for the rest of us) I'm protecting a townie? Wow, I must be scum. I've given town reads on dicknose because he's the only one acting in what I think is a clear pro-town manner. He questions people for good reasons, thinks about the logic behind people's posts and picks out the glaring flaws, and puts pressure where pressure is needed. Knowing whilst from previous games, I can see this being town whilst, even though some of his skills aren't sharpened. I reserve the right to change that impression on day 3 if DC or IAI turn up town.
5. I'm not attempting to make you look stupid. I'm pointing out that your reasons for doing what you're doing are not sufficient, and thus I don't trust them and neither should anyone else. You're taking personal offense at that. Please don't.

Stuff that doesn't rely on previous games:
4) Saying you'll reveal more info at L-1 during D1. No point to say that as you should have known no one would really try to lynch you so soon. You were put in L-1

because

you said that one thing.
5) Considering a strange, IMO , possibility of mafia planning Cav's hammering when at the same time denying any wine theory I presented regarding night kills. The mafia members are

not

superhumans. They couldn't have known he'll hammer.

4. Maybe that wasn't the smartest move on my part, but I don't see how it's scummy. Please explain further if you have any reasons why it was something scum would do and town wouldn't. My main reason was that I didn't want to be put at L-1 and then immediately hammered without any further discussion. Saying that I would talk more at L-1 would make people want to talk more or make the hammerer very suspect. It's only fair to let people say what they have to say at :-1, especially given that there wasn't much time to say anything at that point because it was so early in the day. That's what made the L-1 and instahammer on BBmolla frustrating, too.
5. Way to underhandedly pat yourself on the back by calling yourself superhuman. I don't think using cavjj was such a stretch seeing as he stressed how he would hammer given the first opportunity and how he put me at L-1 with very little purpose. This is a matter of opinion, and no matter how many times you say "using cavjj is a stretch," I can still consider it a personal point against you. You should not have brought yet another person to L-1 after the backlash from the first L-1 bandwagon. That's just silly and scummy.

And what do you want me to cite? Posts from mafia game on another forum?
It's not like most of the reasons can be proven with a single post anyway.

If you're not going to cite something, don't even talk about it. It is not proof to me or anyone that you "saw something once" and it turned out a certain way. It's fluff. It's making you look like you're thinking about something when really you're just spinning yarns.

[Honest Abel]

DC, I also want you to know, if you are town, that the way you are acting is not fair to the town. There are clear and definite ways to help the town in this game, and then there is doing what you're doing, which you've admitted is entirely out of self-preservation. The goal of this game isn't to stay alive as long as you can (unless you're mafia), it's to bring to light as much truth as possible while you're alive. You can still win the game after you die as long as your team wins. It's a team game. Confusing everyone else to suit your own hidden agenda is not townly conduct.

[Honest Abel]

Only read the first part of your post and have a quick response, I'll respond to the rest after my break/meetings.

You say that your current playstyle ended up helping the town lynch someone on D1. Can you explain how? Can you link to the game so I can see? I just can't picture you convincing anyone to vote for who you want to vote for, not when you're acting scummy on purpose.

[Honest Abel]

Otherwise, you're still spinning yarns.

[Honest Abel]

So you think he's town, but just an idiot?

I will definitely check out your links later, thanks.

[Honest Abel]

What the fuck is a tie?

[Honest Abel]

How? There can be no ties in mafia. Either someone is lynched at majority or there is no lynch. Not in newbie games, anyway.

[Honest Abel]

Why are you still talking about rules and games that have nothing to do with this one? Somebody lynch this goon already.

[Honest Abel]

whilst, why are you not voting for DarkClaymore? He is being obnoxiously scummy. Give me some good reasons tunneling dicknose is more important than questioning/lynching DC. I really don't get it. This guy has enough against him to be lynched three times. The way you are just ignoring that and actually complimenting his posts is really scummy. You are now on my scum list, which looks like this now, from least to most scummy:

I Am Innocent
whilst
DarkClaymore

DC, why should we even listen to your reasoning if it has nothing to do with this game? You're acting scummy because it somehow hypothetically helps you in a game with different rules than ours? Great. I have a feeling your references to fictional/irrelevant games is a nervous tick you develop as scum because it helps you avoid answering questions honestly.

[Honest Abel]

Also, whilst, it looks like the only reason you are against dicknose here is because he put some pressure on you earlier, which is merely reactive. Let it go and move on to something else, if you have the power to do that.

[Honest Abel]

The main reason dicknose looks town to me is because he went after whilst when whilst said some scummy stuff, and now he's going after DarkClaymore because he's being consistently scummy. He's not stuck on one person, he puts pressure where it's needed. it's the easiest way to judge someone to be town, that I know of. And the reason I'm pointing this out is so you know who I'd want you all to trust once I'm dead.

IAI, cavjj, and NS are just sitting back and watching the drama unfold. Right now it looks like Abel & dicknose vs. DarkClaymore & whilst. I really want to know why whilst is so pro-DarkClaymore since he's easily the scummiest character I've ever played a mafia game with.

[Honest Abel]

whilst, just vote DC already. Here's a wiki page you might find useful:
http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Bussing

[Honest Abel]

I think we found our scumteam, everyone.

[Honest Abel]

@DC:

First of all, to your response to me, all I can say is: WHAT?! I have no idea what you are saying there.

Second, you're using the argument that two scum fighting looks like two town fighting to explain why I was fighting with someone who is confirmed town. You talk to much for how little sense you make. You are clutching at straws. Somebody lynch this goon for god's sake.

[Honest Abel]

whilst, I'm going to look over your posts in detail, buddy. You're making me very wary. I'm just talking about how instead of doing anything productive, you're complimenting DC for his nonsense questions and rebuttals to dicknose. You've only really said anything about DC's posts that had to do with making dicknose seem like the minority. Maybe this is just recently, But I will find out soon enough. Also, the fact that DC said he was about to vote you when I implied you were on the same team was a really transparent way of trying to distance himself from you. I guess I really can't tell yet if it was a real attempt at distancing or if he was just trying to make you look scummy with him.

I'm really not hopeful about NS posting. He's been active lurking in my other game, too. I would love to hear from him and I Am Innocent. However, I am more than ready to lynch DarkClaymore. This guy not only has got to go, but he's left so many good clues about other players that it should be cake enough to determine who his buddy is once he's gone.

[Honest Abel]

So DarkClaymore trying to say that

• He's been playing lynchbait and that's a great strategy
  
• I didn't vote for him
  
• Not voting for lynchbait is scummy

Not one part of that is true.

[Honest Abel]

Looks like at least DC learned a thing from the bussing article. Get it? Get it? He voted for whilst.

DC, I'm going explain again why your reasoning about me vs. BBmolla makes no sense: because he is confirmed town. You quoted something saying "two scum sometimes argue, and people dismiss is as town vs. town." BBmolla was confirmed town when he died. It doesn't apply.

[Honest Abel]

Whilst: sure, it's just a little list. The only person who has been productive other than me, I think, is dicknose. If you mean productivity based on results. It appeared to me at first that you were at least trying. Now I'm not so certain. I'll give you examples of what I think dicknose has done that is productive, probably late tonight. He's definitely rough around the edges, but I'm really confident that he is town. I am prepared to eat those words if I am wrong about him.

dicknose
————————
Nobody Special
cavjj
————————
I Am Innocent
whilst
DarkClaymore

[Honest Abel]

How would I explain the fact that FICTIONAL UNCITED STORYTIME YARN? I wouldn't. I'm not bothering with your nonsense anymore, DC.

[Honest Abel]

I'm leaving my vote on you and hereby ignoring you from now on. I'm going to scumhunt whilst and then whoever's next until someone else decides to lynch either you or me. Hopefully you.

[Honest Abel]

DC is pointing out how whilst is scummy for being his teammate. I love it.

[Honest Abel]

whilst has more of a connection to you at the moment than IAI ever had. IAI is scummy in his own right, and I don't think I can ever let that go, but I know you're scum and there seems to be a better connection between you and whilst than you and IAI.

[Honest Abel]

I love the worldview that DC would have us believe: the scummier he is, the more protown he is.

This is bologna. Why aren't the lurkers having any of this fresh, delicious bologna?

[Honest Abel]

I would continue making the case that DC is scummy, except it's only going to prove that he's town.

[Honest Abel]

UNVOTE: DarkClaymore, Just so the hypothetical/long-shot IAI/cavjj team can't hammer overnight.

[Honest Abel]

Probably DarkClaymore. I'm going to give it one more read to make sure. But that guy is ridiculous.

[Honest Abel]

I mean, I think we'd have to be pretty fuckin' stupid to let that guy off the hook. And the fact that he only became unraveled after we began prodding him makes his "I chose to be scummy on purpose" strategy look like nonsense.

dicknose, you read that game he linked? What do you think? Is he doing the same crap here? Is he just an extremely anti-town townie?

[Honest Abel]

You were talking about games that had ended anyway, right? You didn't have to mention ongoing games. Plus, I don't think the mod is talking about you, he/she's probably talking about me talking about NS. Point taken, mod.

NS, good catch on DC's weird wording. It's very odd that he used "would have" instead of "were." It's like he was padding himself with an extra layer of subjunctivity or something.

DC, you can't clear people with your actions. You haven't cleared anybody. You've just made a mess of yourself. There are perfectly town reasons why people would or wouldn't vote for lynchbait/you. That doesn't solve anything. About me being

too

protown, I already explained my stance on this. I play as hard as I can in the day because you could be killed each night. A townie is going to get killed each night regardless of how I act. And there's no reason why keeping myself alive would benefit the town more than anyone else staying alive. You are acting scummy, in part, because you want to keep yourself from getting nightkilled (you said this earlier), which is ridiculous considering you admit you are a bad player. Why would you want to stay alive as long as possible if you know you suck and couldn't bring the town a win? That's pretty much playing against your wincon.

[Honest Abel]

Apologize for what? "Suck"? He says he's a bad player. I'm not adding anything to that by saying the word "suck;" it's his argument repeated to him. I'm not saying it's my interpretation. Also, it's a verb that clearly demonstrates the concept of "bad-player-ness." There's nothing behind it other than that, I promise.

[Honest Abel]

Furthermore, your officiousness is grating. It's as though you are concerned more with appearing fair and agreeable than with playing the game. Providing your third-person perspective if not as helpful as you make it out to be: first, because people can already roughly imagine how their actions will be perceived by others; second, because stating your layer of perception can only help scum see and fix their errors. This runs totally contrary to your Napoleon attitude. What is the protown use?

[Honest Abel]

I really don't think "suck" is a big deal, and I think the only reason you're making a big deal out of it is because you want me modkilled because you're scum.

I'm starting to see the possibility of a whilst/IAI scumteam. If DC flips town, that's probably what I'll go for. Can't back down about DC at this point, though. He's made that impossible. If he's town, that's his fault.

VOTE: DarkClaymore

[Honest Abel]

I think going after cavjj is in itself scummy given D1. He's an easy target because he hammered town. I'd like to see cavjj attempt scumhunting, though. He hasn't done too much other than hammer and defend himself.

[Honest Abel]

Wanting "solid evidence" is something whilst has talked about in the past as town, so it doesn't ring scummy to me as silly as it is. Null.

[Honest Abel]

#380 and #383 are the first town things DC has said all game, in my opinion. If he's going to stop being scummy now and scumhunt, then I might end up changing my opinion. Although he could be doing this because I said he's left us no choice but to lynch him.

[Honest Abel]

I completely disagree that NS is being overly protown. He's hardly done anything yet. Still chilling in my null box.

The thing that struck me over and over again about D2 DC is that he admitted he was being lynchbait early on and then just kept being scummy. He didn't do anything active until #380 that I remember. He's just been sitting back and defending himself for being purposely scummy. I still have to think about it, but maybe I can't picture town doing that at all.

[Honest Abel]

Except if you're wrong about "finding" scum. I see no conclusive evidence that whilst is scum, and you flipping town won't change that. So really, if you're town, you've just been entirely useless, played against your wincon, put town in a tough position, distracted us from the real scum, and found your way onto my personal blacklist in the future.

[Honest Abel]

I'm not trusting my scumhunting abilities (if we are talking about the regular "scum reads" and "town reads" thing), so it's better that people who do will live on rather than me.

Except earlier you said that the reason you're being scummy is so that you can survive longer. Explain the contradiction.

[Honest Abel]

The way you switch back and forth between contradictory arguments seems like you're just trying to tell people what they want to hear. You have no convictions.

[Honest Abel]

Maybe "conclusive" and "evidence" are strong words, but any information we can glean from your lynchbait tactic will be useless. It will not be as good as the information that good ol' scumhunting reveals.

[Honest Abel]

lol @ #405. That's great.

I do not understand the point of #403, sadly.

[Honest Abel]

All things considered, I'm keeping my vote on DC. It will be up to the people who haven't talked as much to take the next step here. I'm am growing weary. IAI and NS need a turn.

[Honest Abel]

I'm am made a typo.

[Honest Abel]

NS, I like it. But If you think the team is IAI/whilst, I'd rather go for IAI. I've played a couple/few games with whilst and have gone after him for pretty much the same reasons he's displaying here, and he's always been town. So I'm giving him the shadow of a doubt here. What do you think about that? I am willing to link to the offsite, completed games in question if you are curious.

Whether I can picture DC doing something as town or not would probably require a reread even though you make it sound like it should come intuitively, but I am dreading having to read all of that nonsense again. Lots of headache-inducing circular logic and repetition in his ISO.

If you're wondering why I'm not an SE, it's because I've only completed one game here on mafiascum.

[Honest Abel]

There's a lot of evidence stacked against DC. I'm sure we could make dozens of posts like #405. He's definitely scummy. He could also just be terribly slow and think that his strategy is a good one. His strategy isn't going to help us at all. A fraction of my desire to lynch DC comes from the idea that we're not going to be losing anything by lynching him if he's town, and we're going to have a cleaner game to play once he's gone.

Right at this moment, my personal feelings are that DC is 60% scum, 40% town. I'm actually pretty uneasy about lynching him. And frustrated at his poor play and belligerence.

[Honest Abel]

NS, the only problem is that I don't think anyone else would join the IAI wagon. But let's see.

UNVOTE: DarkClaymore
VOTE: I Am Innocent

[Honest Abel]

Abel the only reason why I asked that, is that in a strange sort of way I'm starting to see where he's coming from. I think he's gone about it totally the wrong way and I personally wouldn't play that way, but I think he has pretty much survived a night kill with his D2 play if he survives the lynch.

Too bad surviving nightkills isn't the point of the game. Nightkills is gonna happen no matter what. That is a terrible excuse to use in this game unless he's a Fool or some kind of role that just needs to stay alive (e.g., Mafia). There are no Fools in newbie games.

[Honest Abel]

If we end up lynching someone other than DarkClaymore, I need to know that he's not going to pull the same hijinks on D3. DC, please do not keep doing the same thing the whole game. We've provided a ton of reasons why it's not a good strategy. It's just not. Move on.

[Honest Abel]

If DC can actually convince me through good play or ATTEMPTED good play, that would be a good way to determine he's actually town. As it is, his whole "strategy" just seems like a convenient way to say "Ha! You can't ever call me scummy, because of course I'm scummy! I'm doing it on purpose!" It's a strategy that is impervious to actual reads, including town reads. That is the opposite of helpful to everyone. Actually, I guess it's helpful to the mafia.

[Honest Abel]

Actually, the only thing I can think of holding me back from an IAI lynch is the fact that he's been absent. If we lynch him and he's town, the dynamic of this game is hardly going to change at all, and D3 might be just as hard if not harder.

That said, dude was scummy as hell. If not for DC putting the spotlight on himself, I think I would have been more hardcore about an IAI lynch.

[Honest Abel]

If anyone is interested in lynching IAI but is too lazy to go back and read and wants me to summarize the case on him, just say so.

[Honest Abel]

Are you asking me why IAI?

[Honest Abel]

My gut on IAI is definitely mafia, and the facts on him are worse. I don't think that's true of any other player. I have very slight gut feelings that whilst and cavjj are mafia, but the facts generally make me see them as town or null. Compare that to DC, for whom all the facts point to mafia, but my gut is that he's a confused townie.

Considering all that, I'm fine with an IAI lynch.

[Honest Abel]

Only NS and I are voting for IAI currently.

[Honest Abel]

He already responded to my inquiries. My vote stands.

[Honest Abel]

Since NS and cavjj did it, my vote still stands.

IAI, I'm going to summarize the case against you as best I can to make this as easy as possible.

[Honest Abel]

Appearing scummy will most likely not make me a night kill target, thus keeping me alive longer in case I manage to avoid lynch. Of course, you can claim that in a way it harms the town as I become a suspect and possibly draw attention away from the real scum, but I find it very interesting to see the reactions of people when it comes to lynching a player who plays like this. Scum tend to slip in such situations.

Scum tend to slip away like this a lot. Playing the "somewhat suspected" role which can be used as a reason to explain why the player wasn't night killed, while in the same time not being suspected enough to get lynched. A very simple and efficient scum strategy.

re: surviving

What exactly do you want to prove? That my playstyle is scummy? We all know that.

Way to miss the point and retreat to your same old defense. The point of juxtaposing those two quotes was to point out not that you are

acting

scummy, but that you yourself say that acting that way is something scum do. Note the difference between "acting scummy" and

actually being scum

. This is one thing that your "You can't prove I'm scummy because I'm doing it on purpose" defense actually can't defend.

[Honest Abel]

@DC: And the fact that you hold the strategy you describe in that second quote in such high esteem makes it look like you could be capable of doing all this for that reason. This is probably the single scummiest fact against you. Noted.

[Honest Abel]

DC, stop saying wine, you don't know what it means.

Your defense for my previous point is irrelevant. Let's repeat: you admitted a great strategy for scum would be to act scummy so that they would have a reason to never die at night, because we would think scum wouldn't kill such a scummy player. I don't get why you started talking about whilst. Irrelevant.

NS and I are wondering if you will change your playstyle. Your response to that was irrelevant. Are you going to start scumhunting given that your previous strategy was a huge, blundering catastrophe?

Let's go over this one more time for clarity: Your lynchbait strategy is a fail regardless of whether whilst is town or not. It's a fail because you put the spotlight on yourself, muddled up the game, acted scummy enough to ruin reads on other people, have done nothing useful, put town in a tough position, and played against your wincon.

[Honest Abel]

Also, explain why whilst not voting for you proves that he's scum. I thought lynchbait is supposed to make scum vote for you because you're giving stupid reasons for people to vote for you?

[Honest Abel]

The most important question here is whether or not you're going to change your playstyle to help the town, or if you're going to muck around uselessly for the rest of the game. Which is it? Pick one now.

[Honest Abel]

DC, stop saying wine, you don't know what it means.

I do and I'm using it correctly. Tell me why I'm not and I'll stop.

You could say wine about anything. You don't because it's not necessary to bring it into every situation. whilst is not acting in any way he can control. He's the same ineffective, blundering townie he always is. You should only talk about WIFOM when you are trying to consider how far someone would go to make you think the opposite of what's true. It just does not have any reasonable amount of bearing on my statement. I wasn't saying "Is whilst acting like this because he knows I know he knows that I expect him to act a certain way?" Wine just makes things more confusing and lends an air of uncertainty to an argument, which you seem to love doing for some reason.

I wanted to stress that from my point of view there was no point in defending myself at all. And I already said it - I could be scum playing lynchbait as much as town. You expect me to make up some kind of reason which will make me appear town?

I expect you to act like town. I expect you to show us that you are concerned about the town win condition if you are town. I expect you to find any way to avoid doing so if you are scum. And that's what you've been doing, and are still doing.

No. Scum

aren't

supposed to vote for me. They are supposed to avert their eyes from the lynchbait or even try to protect it a little. They want town points, not suspicion points. Is this way of thinking so unrealistic in your eyes? I think it's fairly logical no matter who you are.

How would voting for you, a clearly scummy scumbag, cast any suspicion at all on whilst? It's not only illogical, it's unsound, and so are you.

First, for me finding scum with this strategy beats anything else. So if I hit it's not a fail in my book no matter what. Second, I hate when people make drama out of it. Why am I the only one who thinks this kind of situations are actually better for reads? Or rather, I'd ask the other way around. What makes it worse?

Nobody gives a flying fuck about what's in your book. We are trying to win a team game here. Fuck you for ignoring that if you are town. A+ job if you are scum.

I already said that there's no point in keeping it up. Especially as I already found my target.

And what have you done to your target? How has whilst being your target helped the town? If whilst turns out to be scum, you've actually hurt the town, because I'm certainly not lynching whilst for your nonsense.

I cannot deal with this guy anymore. I give up. Sorry, NS. I cannot justify letting this guy survive to D3.

UNVOTE: I Am Innocent
VOTE: DarkClaymore

[Honest Abel]

From now on, I'm not going to respond to anything you say that isn't protown. I think that's a smart move for everyone.

[Honest Abel]

Okay, less nonsense, dicknose.

[Honest Abel]

Working on it now, whilst. Patience.

[Honest Abel]

Well, here's the case on I Am Innocent. Feel free to add on if I miss anything. I went and read all of his posts and took notes. Then I waited a few hours and looked at my notes with a fresh eye to make sure I wasn't getting carried away since a lot of his posts were directed at me. I made sure to pick only the things that were actually scummy and not just things I was tacking on extraneously. So I hope this is as clear and unbiased as possible.

I Am Innocent

: ...Not

Major Point #1

He targeted me solely because I targeted him.

Rather than defend himself against my scumhunting and pressure, I Am Innocent chose to deflect suspicion back onto me — thereby freeing him from the obligation to answer for his actions and creating a diversion by making me look scummy, stupid, or dishonest instead. For example:

• In #158, instead of defending his vote on BBmolla with his reasons, he merely pointed out that I had a vote on BBmolla too and asked if anyone wanted a go. He diverted the issue by stating something that was already apparent but with a twist of accusation.
• Also in #158, he responded to my accusation that DarkClaymore followed his vote by attempting to make me look stupid for voting for him before DarkClaymore.
• In #165, he responded to my statement that I was growing wary of him and DarkClaymore on D1 not by asking why or by defending his D1 actions, but by pointing out that I didn't give a "hint," and so I must be lying. This was nothing more than an attempt to make me look dishonest, since a hint wouldn't have made a shred of difference either way. He repeats this same diversion ad nauseum in #182, #183, and #211, acting as though not giving a hint of my suspicions is paramount, when really it's inconsequential and he couldn't provide reasons it would have helped.
• In #183, he deflected my comment about suspecting him on D1 by quoting the post of mine in which I said GlaDOS's breakdown against nolynches is a good explanation. He juxtaposed "That's good explanation" with "I am becoming wary of you" to make me look self-contradictory, ignoring the fact that I was complimenting GlaDOS's explanation, not his quote of it.
• In #211 and #212, he reduces my observations (that he's not scumhunting, that he's twisting my words to divert attention from himself, and that he hasn't been acting protown) to mere abuse. He says that I'm berating his scumhunting abilities, even though he hadn't even used them yet. Perhaps if he had tried to scumhunt or put pressure on someone up to that point and I pointed out that his skills were weak, it could have made sense. But nothing like that occurred. It's simple deflection, baseless accusation, and quite possibly also an Appeal to Emotion.

Major Point #2

He sticks to what's easy.

He goes after the easy targets and makes easy posts.

• In #83, he leaps at the opportunity to have an easy chat about mechanics, and easily quotes GlaDOS's explanation of why nolynching is bad (Note: In #183, he takes full credit for his quoted explanation).
• In #85, he sees my "have a go at BBmolla" and uses it as an excuse to easily hop on the bandwagon with little reasoning behind his vote (because BBmolla didn't give a random reason with his random vote).
• In #117, he says his scumlist consists of DarkClaymore and cavjj, the two easiest targets at the time, seeing as they were the L-1 and hammer on an abrupt mislynch.

Minor Points

• He's not playing his self-proclaimed town meta.
  He says, in #47, that he prefers town because it's challenging, and that his strategy is to make people take stances, push people to identify who they suspect, and analyze vote histories. In #183, he says his playstyle is to contribute as much as possible every day. He's been mostly absent and disengaged, and hasn't followed through on any part of his strategy.
  
• He's careful not to step on people's toes.
  Also in #47, he gives in to Wickedestjr's question about whether his "interesting" meant "suspicious." I Am Innocent replies that he meant "a tad suspicious." That's a very delicate appraisal, and he only made it when pressed. Note that he's careful not to step on people's toes, but when I question/pressure him, he reacts almost maliciously in self-preservation.
  
• He was followed by the same two players on each of his D1 votes.
  DarkClaymore and cavjj followed his lead on my wagon and BBmolla's wagon. This is significant mainly because those are two very newb players and he's an SE, so perhaps one of them was trying to follow his more-experienced buddy's lead.
  
• He acts confused about the Scumhunter nightkill.
  In #117, he says he's "not sure what scum was thinking." The professed confusion is noteworthy particularly because Scumhunter was an SE, the IC had been useless up to that point, and it should be fairly obvious that mafia would kill someone who's not a potential Doctor target.
  
• He simultaneously suspects and defends whilst.
  In #85, I Am Innocent has a "slight concern" for whilst not voting (which is another delicate appraisal), but then says he has a town read on whilst. The accuse/defend is a notorious scumtell since it shows that he doesn't want to take a stance. The comment also naturally contradicts itself, making it fluff.

[Honest Abel]

Honest Abel pushed D1 hard on what was the optimal strategy N1 for scum. It put in a lot of people's heads that the IC was in danger. This could be just scum trying to get a free shot at 5 other players N1 (assuming IC is town and town is mislynched), or it could have been a more longer term reason to show why a scum IC continues to last Night after Night.

I don't get how my question gave scum a free shot at anyone. First of all because I merely asked the question and didn't know how people would respond. Second because we got various responses, from "lynch the IC, duh," to "IC would lynch, SE, or anyone could use WIFOM to lynch anyone." The variety of response paired with me not controlling the answers should free me from whatever blame you're trying to push on me for Scumhunter's death. What am I missing here?

Along with that, an SE died, and now he is pushing for the other SE to go. (not to push appeal to fear, but) A player with an 8-3 town record, and one that is undefeated in LyLo. Not a bad person to get out of the way D2 if your scum, huh?

I'm after you for some legitimate reasons. I'm targeting you specifically for those reasons and because there are so many of them. I hope you will acknowledge this when you read my treatise on you, and I'm rooting for you to come through with some solid answers that aren't just deflection. If you're going to be as active in the rest of the game as you've been on this page so far, and considering your good record at being town, you'd certainly be a good ally.

Ah, here is the winner. Honest Abel has turned all attention away from cavjj, onto DC and me. This scum team lines up nicely with the evidence from the two scenarios above, 1) Honest Abel pushing protection on the IC giving free shots to the scum team, 2) cavjj having a newbie teammate who did not proper advice N0 on how to play D1.

My relationship with cavjj is simple: I attacked the easiest target from D1 to see how you and DC would react. I suspected you both for some iffy D1 conversation and because of the shared bandwagons. cavjj was also on those bandwagons, but he seemed the most obviously clueless/oblivious. So following my early D2 attack on him, I defended him only enough to cancel out what I said merely because I was using him as a target to get a response.

I also like how he says "It also strikes me that Scumhunter's promise to you to become more involved in the game could have been a determining factor in his demise" almost hinting at that he feels cavjj may be scum (distancing?), but the rest of D2 he defends cavjj to no end.

"Almost hinting"? I was using real reasons to go after cavjj to make him look as scummy as possible, so if any one of my reasons made him look like scum, it only makes sense. I just didn't personally believe those reasons added up to definite scum. This does not clear cavjj in my book, but I had two bigger fish to fry at the time. You'll see that he's been on my scumlist consistently, I think. Maybe I moved him to null when whilst dipped into scum. cavjj has had a very weak D2, though, and my current appraisal of him is scum.

[Honest Abel]

Honest Abel pushed D1 hard on what was the optimal strategy N1 for scum. It put in a lot of people's heads that the IC was in danger. This could be just scum trying to get a free shot at 5 other players N1 (assuming IC is town and town is mislynched), or it could have been a more longer term reason to show why a scum IC continues to last Night after Night.

I don't get how my question gave scum a free shot at anyone. First of all because I merely asked the question and didn't know how people would respond. Second because we got various responses, from "lynch the IC, duh," to "IC would lynch, SE, or anyone could use WIFOM to lynch anyone." The variety of response paired with me not controlling the answers should free me from whatever blame you're trying to push on me for Scumhunter's death. What am I missing here?

Also, when

didn't

scum have a free shot at anyone? Were they bound to lynch someone in particular before I came along? No. The fact that you are still attacking my deliberately weak comment with the is strange, unless you're trying to show through redundancy that you didn't just go after it because it's deliberately weak. Which might be even scummier.

[Honest Abel]

I just realized the preface I typed up to #482 is missing. General gist: "IAI, thanks for responding to some points against you, but I have some problems/questions about them that I hope you will address:"

I believe this is important at least because I don't want to give you the impression that I am attacking you, here. I would prefer if we could talk about my concerns calmly.

[Honest Abel]

The other two things that IAI mentioned:

I said we were nearing the pinnacle of a good time to lynch because DC put so much anti-town material in the thread that it was enough to lynch him based off of it. Everyone had taken their stances by that point, I think, including you, but not including the IC slot. The good news is that things certainly haven't regressed. NS coming in and you finally answering to your actions have been good things. DC's whole episode was a regression, but I think we're over it now.

You're really trying to push the idea that I'm somehow insulting you by saying you're not scumhunting and not doing anything protown. These are observations, not critiques. Let's take a look at some hypothetical examples of the difference:

Observations:

You're scumhunting
You're not scumhunting
You're protown
You're not protown
You're twisting my words
You're not twisting my words

Critiques/insults:

You're scumhunting poorly
You suck at being protown
You're twisting my words, you sniveling shitbag

[Honest Abel]

DC, I will respond to your wall on me later, since I've determined that it is protown, or an attempt to be protown. And just for that,

UNVOTE: DarkClaymore

[Honest Abel]

I'm reading DC's non-lynchbait case on whilst, and while I haven't come to a conclusion about it yet:

Yeah, I'm pretty bad. Which is probably why I wasn't mafia killed during N1.

This is just awful. That's pretty much the kind of thing you lynch people for saying.

[Honest Abel]

DC's case on whilst:

1) Pleasing both sides.

whilst has done this before, and it's been one of my main critiques of his play in the past. The other thing he used to do was assume a "style" of posting. One game, he was as much of a stubborn asshole as he could be. It was very anti-town. He's stopped doing that kind of thing, but he still seems to be trying to please people. Good point.

2) Suspecting and not suspecting [DC].

Another good point. Why was DC on whilst's suspect list, and then later he claims he has no reasons to vote for DC? It's wishy-washy. I will admit that the lynchbait "strategy" ONLY serves to make this point BECAUSE whilst said he suspected DC beforehand and not afterward. Other than that, the lynchbait thing makes no sense and is too anti-town to justify using. We will talk more about this when the game is over, DC. I hope you do not use that strategy in the future.

3) Outguessing.

This seems like a stretch. I don't get this from DC's first or third examples. I see it in the second example, but it's so subtle that it seems like a stretch. whilst, instead of just asking a question, offers an answer to his own question and asks the target if he agrees. It just shows no desire to know the truth, just a desire to see whether the person agrees or not. But it shouldn't be a main point, and it's not something town mightn't do.

4) Denying your own suggestion after others use it against you.

This

would

be a good point, but DC's evidence doesn't lead to this conclusion. It makes sense that whilst might find DC's tactic interesting (and, again, this is from knowing whilst: he has a penchant for trying to develop strange strategies) but later say that DC confused himself, because DC was talking in circles for quite a long time.

DC, overall, I'm pleased with this case on whilst. Some of your logic is weak and you're stretching, but at least you are trying now. I'll respond to your case on me next.

[Honest Abel]

Remember what that was in response to? You said "he's going to hate me for saying this, but whilst is pretty bad", or something close to that. You made a pithy remark about me, so I gave you a shallow response.

I remember what it was in response to. But you used it as a reason to say "I'm alive because no mafia would have killed such a bad player." You offered this part up for no reason. Nobody was questioning why you were alive. It's scummy.

[Honest Abel]

This just crossed my mind for no reason:

NS, what do you think of cavjj given his D2 performance? All you've said about him is that he seems town based on #139, which you didn't explain. Explain and tell me what you think of cavjj overall.

[Honest Abel]

If you were town, I'd expect you to move on; and hey--you did. You posted a nice section about Abel, congrats.

...

VOTE: DarkClaymore

???

VOTE: whilst

[Honest Abel]

Seems like whilst is suddenly being extra offensive because we pointed out how placid he is.

[Honest Abel]

I did read your whole post. It's not looking good, chum.

[Honest Abel]

Aggressive behavior does not fit into my protown rulebook. There needs to be logic behind it. You're responding harshly to DC's points and telling me something you said to me should be taken as a "fuck you." I'm not going to welcome aggressive behavior just because we pointed out how placid you were. You are simply trying to please us again.

You put your vote on DC "to get a response." Why you would vote for someone immediately after calling him town is beyond me. Furthermore, you said from the beginning that you're voting for him to see if he flips out. So he's going to be aware that you're doing it to get a response. But how his response will help you or help the town is also beyond me.

You're giving the outer shell of protown behavior while not thinking through the reasons behind it.

UNVOTE: whilst merely because IAI is coming back to respond to my wall.

[Honest Abel]

If you weren't at L-1, I wouldn't have unvoted. Because I think dicknose might actually want to hammer you, even though he's been pretty much tunneling DC all D2. My impression is that his top two suspects are DC and you.

You're doing a lot of the simultaneous defend/attack thing here, still. I unvoted you just so I wouldn't look bad, but I'm genuinely interested in IAI's responses. Okay, so by saying everything you're basically saying nothing.

[Honest Abel]

Okay. So a bit more discussion with IAI, dicknose's D2 thoughts, maybe some more contribution from or discussion of cavjj? At some point we need to determine when we've done enough, and then decide to throw all of our chips in and hammer someone.

I'm probably going to take flak for bringing this up, but it's a newbie game, so I think we're allowed to ask questions and discuss the game in general. It's my impression that once everybody has taken a particular stance for the day, it's good for a lynch to occur then rather than postponing it. Someone's stance in a day can be taken as a lifetime of posts, in a way. Letting people take multiple overall stances seems like a regression, because we're allowing that person to change and adapt with no punctuation or clear game changes (lynch, nightkill). For example, DC: I was fine for a while with lynching IAI because I felt DC had taken a solid stance on his lynchbait strategy. To me, it would have been revealing if we had lynched and had a nightkill and then saw what DC did on D3 juxtaposed to those absolute truths. But now he's changing his whole strategy in the middle of the day, and comparing two stances to absolute truths isn't going to reveal anything with certainty anymore. The same thing is happening with whilst changing up his play, or attempting to. I partly feel that this may be a regression and could make things less clear in D3. Now, I don't want this to be the main discussion, but if anyone has any thoughts on this after their regular play, I hope you will share.

[Honest Abel]

Where did you get the idea that I had any intention to hammer or had whilst was in my top two?

Because the only interaction you've had with anyone outside of DC is whilst, and it seemed like you were suspicious of him or pointing out contradictions.

[Honest Abel]

I meant to add "in my recollection."

[Honest Abel]

While I could just stay quiet and let you point out something in my favor, I still think I better point out that I'm actually quite used to making long posts. There was a game in which me and another player did "wall wars" and people were begging us to stop writing so much. Also, that player was actually scum. And it wasn't the first time I found myself arguing with a scum yet people easily wrote it off as town vs. town.

So I'd be frank - I can't easily see any argument as town vs. town after past experiences. If it's really town-on-town, so be it. But I rather push until the very end than giving up because it

might be

"town-on-town".

I agree that your posting a lot shouldn't make you look less scummy.

[Honest Abel]

Especially because a lot of is is misleading and mucks up the thread and makes the game more difficult to read and comprehend.

[Honest Abel]

whilst, you are just arguing with DC. If you are town, please start convincing us/me, because I'm nearly ready to see you lynched. You might be able to do this by giving an unbiased look at the game and players, giving good reasons to go after someone other than DC, and then doing so. Your posts are reactive to DC, which doesn't strike me as protown.

[Honest Abel]

IAI did explain his BBmolla vote pretty convincingly, though.

Right, on D2, with no proof that he didn't just come up with those reasons today. I actually skipped that post of his because it's irrelevant for that reason.

[Honest Abel]

Okay, I didn't entirely skip it because I remember reading the last two paragraphs. But his case on BBmolla is entirely irrelevant now. Explaining it now does nothing to fix that he didn't give reasons to vote for BBmolla on D1 when it was relevant.

[Honest Abel]

Stop quoting the wiki. First of all, you're not proving anything about yourself by quoting something you didn't write. Second, any goddamn idiot could have written that, it's a wiki. And if the person who wrote it isn't an idiot, I reserve the right to disagree anyway. Third, anything put on a wiki about strategy in this game is immediately null and void because it becomes public knowledge and everybody knows the tricks. Fourth, I haven't made any decisions in this game based

solely

on potential scumbuddies. It's a minor reason of many reasons I suspect IAI. Fifth (do I really have this many things to say to you? Holy shit), don't

outguess

me that I'd write you off as an idiot and ignore your opinion, you don't know that.

I may very well renege on my promise to look at your case on me because the back-and-forth it's going to lead to is just going to provide you another outlet to propagate your nonsense.

...But odds are I'm going to respond anyway. I'm definitely not going to go through endless rounds of argument/counterargument with you like you've been doing with whilst and dicknose.

I'm in Eastern Time (EDT, GMT-5).

[Honest Abel]

Also, DC, why are you so faithful to your beloved wiki when you're all about using the "weird" strategy?

[Honest Abel]

This is all in response to DC; the bulk of it is tangential and could only be answered with explaining my personal preferences. Skip to the very end if you want to get straight to the point:

1)

Dictator

. I'm absolutely fine with hearing any strategy you want to put forward. I suppose you brought this up because I was against your strategy in particular. Your strategy certainly does a whole world of harm more than it does good, if it does any good at all. If whilst flips scum, you are not off the hook. You will still be a huge suspect D3, and you've made D2 a huge headache to analyze. I think outside of the box every day at my job (I write for an advert agency), so I'm not against great, innovative strategies. I'm against people thinking their ideas are amazing while ignoring the huge amount of damage they're doing and not getting any trustworthy results. I'm not a dictator, I'm a general, and the rest of my fellow townies should hold themselves in such high esteem. We'd have a better time of it.

1.1)

Leader

. Yes, I lead people in the direction I think we should be going. I hope any one of you would try your best to lead me in the direction

you

think we should be going. If you have a strong scum read, do your best to convince others while listening to what everyone else has to say, including your target. That was always my idea. I put a case forward on BBmolla and asked if anyone else wanted a go at him, but I also asked (and this has been greatly ignored up to now): "Anyone interested in critiquing my line of questioning/reasoning?" Nobody did. Not a one of you. Three dudes jumped on and D1 was over. So much for discussion.

I don't care about SE and IC being our leaders. I certainly wouldn't let one of them lead

me

around, not with what happened in Newbie 1092. If I have a question about the game, I will ask one of them (and I have). That's where their "leadership" ends.

I'm not letting someone think for themselves? Show me where I've turned down a good case or good pressure on someone. Show me any evidence at all that I'm making the town follow one person. You can't say such things without examples, especially when they're so obviously lies. I've been a part of developing a case on BBmolla, you, and IAI, and small cases on whilst and cavjj. And I apologize for being wrong about BBmolla, but townies get lynched all the time, and you need to accept that. Five people agreed he was scummy enough to vote for, and cavjj and possibly you thought he was scummy enough to be lynched. Or you're scum.

1.2)

One Ideology

. I'm not unaccepting of new ideas and strategies. I'll listen to anything, evaluate it, and tell you whether it's shit or not, honestly. Your strategy was shit and I'm not the only one who explained why. Everything you do in this game is either protown or antitown, and it's pretty clear which a certain action is if you would think about it. Now that you are acting a bit more protown, you're getting results. How does it feel?

I called your citing of that other game irrelevant because you said the biggest boon to your strategy was that it helps in ties. We don't have ties in this game. The conversation about ties certainly was, and still is, irrelevant.

I did ask you to cite your sources first and foremost, if I recall correctly. After a while without citing, I started calling your stories nonsense. Also, your interpretation of what happened in the games you cited when you finally cited them is a bit different from how I think the rest of us would interpret it.

I cannot play like a dictator in a game where everyone has a vote. This is unalterably a democratic game. Did I strip you of your vote? Am I forcing people to vote one way or another? No. I thought this was always evident. Maybe the BBmolla mislynch was a wake-up call to you, as I hope it was, to realize that you shouldn't stake your vote on someone else's case without thinking about it first. The thing about democracy is that it isn't just about votes, it's about having a voice. The smallest minority has the right to make their case to the populous. It had better be a good one.

2)

Ignoring your own previous deductions

. Opinions change over time. Appearing confident is an important part of adding pressure. A statement so self-assured and intuitive like "

lol, looks like we have our scumteam

" is going to dismantle a scumteam more than "

Well, here are all the reasons my previous case doesn't work anymore. I admit its shortcomings could apply to any case I make in the future. That said, my next suspicion is that these two gentlemen are a scumteam

."

It's always my strategy to pressure and target players who are here to answer for themselves. If I'm presented with two scummy players (let's hypothetically call them "IAI" and "DC") and IAI decides one day he's going to have a life outside of the mafia game, then I am going to put all of my resources into scumhunting DC. Otherwise, what am I supposed to do? Keep talking to IAI all day and let DC just sit there silent at his computer? Nah.

3)

Playing extremely protown and jumping on every little thing

. I play as protown as possible and you should too. That's my stance, and I'm sticking with it. I obviously can't cover everything because I'm not a superhero, but I'm not concerned about whether or not I make you look scummy by not leaving anything for you to say.

You're

concerned about whether or not you look scummy, which is scummy. Someone has to say protown things, and I have no life or try not to, so if I'm around and there's something protown to be done, I'm going to do it. I expect every townie to feel the same way, or have a good reason for not feeling the same way. I can imagine such reasons. Yours aren't particularly convincing.

4)

Doing what is wrong and make it appear protown

. "Wrong" is subjective in this case. Don't believe everything you read.

5)

Publicly saying someone is town

. I reserve the right to make and change my opinions on people whenever I want. In fact, I'm less confident that dicknose is town now than I was before. He makes good points clearly and with purpose, but he's been tunneling you all day. Maybe it's because you're so damn scummy, but he's due for an evaluation. Me saying dicknose seems town isn't going to get him killed, and if it does, well, sorry, someone is going to die anyway. I've often wondered what the point is in saying someone seems town. I believe it has to do with honesty and developing a town consciousness. If we all have a good opinion of a player, it will allow that player to continue being helpful and protown. I don't see how calling someone is town is more or less harmful than calling someone scum, really.


I'm not interested in discussing these points further since a lot of them seem tangential. In fact, I have only one request for you, DC:

Please go back through each of the seven points you made about me and explain why a townie wouldn't do those things and why scum would.

If you happen to make any good points, I will respond in kind. Otherwise, I'm just not seeing how any of this looks truly scummy.

[Honest Abel]

Please go back through each of the seven points you made about me and explain why a townie wouldn't do those things and why scum would.

That said, I'm willing to do exactly that same thing in my case about IAI, if anything needs explaining, even if it will result in me throwing out my own ideas. Just let me know.

EDIT:
Every moderator has the ability to edit posts. If you'd like me to fix something instead of reposting it correctly, just let me know. I usually try to catch these things and fix them automatically anyway. : )
~singer

[Honest Abel]

EBWOP:

Please go back through each of the seven points you made about me and explain why a townie wouldn't do those things and why scum would.

That said, I'm willing to do exactly that same thing in my case about IAI, if anything needs explaining, even if it will result in me throwing out my own ideas. Just let me know.

[Honest Abel]

IAI, "usually" isn't going to work here. This is a newb game. Please explain why night speculation is a bad thing. Also, my intent isn't pure speculation. It's to make scum choose between telling the truth and lying. If they tell the truth about what they would have done, they'll say they would have killed who was killed. If they lie about what they've done, then it's another thing they have to memorize and keep track of. It makes it tougher for scum either way you look at it. That's the value I see in it. Please let me know if you've got any counterpoints.

Also, I don't think our situations are similar enough to keep comparing. You voted for BBmolla on D1 without too much reason and never shared your reasons until D2, which means that you could have come up with those reasons

on

D2. So it creates uncertainty about the reasoning behind your vote, given that there is no evidence that you had come up with reasoning at the time of your vote.

My situation (the one

only you

created, care about, and are perpetuating) is that I found you and DC suspicious that final night of D1 and during N1, used cavjj's hammer suspicion to try to draw a response from you two, and then shared my plan once it was over...

without giving a hint

on D1. Why a hint is necessary to that plan is beyond me. Hinting, it seems, would have exposed the whole thing. I might have ended up saying something if D1 went on longer because I can't stop yapping, but alas. The reason I didn't share in my last post that night was the same as the reason I didn't share my preemptive thoughts on whilst and DC (for different reasons) earlier in the day until put at L-1: because they weren't fully formed and there wasn't enough to make a case on.

NS, why do you want to lynch whilst first? How will his flip help you determine what to do next more than IAI's flip? Not saying I disagree, but I want to hear why you think it.

[Honest Abel]

At this point, if IAI is done responding to the case against him, I think all we've really left to do is hear dicknose's thoughts that he promised. I think cavjj's actions on D1 and D2 speak for themselves.

[Honest Abel]

DC, whilst, get your notebooks out:

Thank you, IAI, I have little else to add. I think my case and your responses will speak for themselves and give good grounds for others to make a decision about you one way or the other.

That said, only one comment: You said that you're putting me under the microscope, but I don't see it. You're not really looking at my actions in this game overall. You've only responded to my pressure on you. That's the only part of my play that you've put under the microscope. So you're not giving what I think is a 360 analysis, and I hope you can see why I think you've been merely reactive to me.

[Honest Abel]

And what are they saying to you?

D1: poor voting judgment, quickhammer. Newbtownishness or newbscummyness? Up to gut, open for further discussion.

D2: Almost all defense. Nothing much in the way of protown action. Sticking around but not doing much. My stabilizing defense of him seemed to make him think he can just sit back and watch what happens. Definitely have to ISO him at some point. Not looking too good.

[Honest Abel]

Yes, but I'm pretty sure of both my reads.

Two town flips means game over. One town flip puts us in trouble.

So instead of admitting your mistake, you counter with "I'm pretty sure of both my reads"?

Yep, there's something wrong about that. Doesn't sound like he meant flip via nightkill, either. I think it's highly unlikely whilst or IAI would be nightkilled, obviously. It's not a scumslip, though, is it?

[Honest Abel]

Because only scum wouldn't follow the newbie guide, right? Not convincing.

[Honest Abel]

NS, I know you posted some IAI/whilst, IAI/DC, and whilst/DC scenarios earlier. Why are you so set on IAI/whilst now? What ever became of your suspicion on DC? Can I get a summary on that?

[Honest Abel]

In other words, you're nowhere near the scummiest on my scum list, but I want to make sure you're not pulling the wool over our eyes by flirting with DC suspicion but conveniently ending up on IAI/whilst. If either one of them were to turn up town, I think you'd receive a good chunk of my suspicion and I might think an NS/DC team were more likely. That's as it stands. I want to get that out there in case I am killed during the Night.

[Honest Abel]

The other thought I had (I woke up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat thinking these things, lol) is that the "sloppy" mafia play, as IAI calls it, could be due to the fact that a newbscum was lacking his more experienced counterpart. E.g., Wickedestjr was missing during the night phase and DC was able to call all the shots. Something like that.

[Honest Abel]

NS, in addition to explaining what happened to your DC suspicion, also let me know how willing you are to lynch him instead of whilst or IAI.

[Honest Abel]

He could have missed it, I don't know.

[Honest Abel]

NS, I don't think whilst or IAI are your buddies. I can't imagine scum throwing his buddy under a bus like that. But I can imagine scum saying his partner is scummy and then focusing on two other people with a high degree of certainty. That's my anxiety about an NS/DC team. I also don't think I would have been so harsh on whilst if you didn't show up, so I feel the potential of having been distracted away from DC.

I think I would personally get more out of a DC flip than a whilst or IAI flip. That's mainly because I'd be able to make better judgments not only about IAI and whilst, but also about you. And, actually, I'd be able to make better judgments about dicknose, and to a small degree, cavjj, based on a DC flip. I guess DC's influence has been very far reaching. I see the biggest benefit coming from a DC lynch.

[Honest Abel]

Who's getting killed tonight anyway? Me or NS, probably. dicknose as a wildcard. Everybody else is scummy. I'm not very optimistic about winning this one.

Or, it would be great irony if one of the scummy people is a doctor or cop, the mafia know this, and plan to kill him tonight. That actually might even be helpful.

Here's what I'm saying, though, that your last post doesn't address: DC isn't likely to be NK'd either. Less likely. Not only is he scummy, he's done the most to pollute the thread and confuse the game. He's the first person I would leave alive if I were mafia. If we lynch whilst or IAI today, we'll have to wait until the end of D3 to get a flip from DC. And

that's

just too long to wait.

Are you saying that if whilst or IAI flips town, DC will have more to answer for than whichever of IAI/whist stays alive? That's the only circumstance under which I would admit a IAI/whilst lynch would be more beneficial, but I'm not seeing it. Care to explain?

[Honest Abel]

Also, I don't see an IAI lynch being very revealing about anyone else. He's been pretty good at sheltering his buddy if he's scum. IAI flips scum and his most probable teammates are... DC, cavjj, whilst.

[Honest Abel]

I agree with whilst's caution/questions. Seems like he's asking NS questions for the same reasons I am, although I started asking first. NS is being a bit more confident than he's explaining why. I can understand NS's impatience, though, because I've been feeling impatient since I've first wanted to lynch DC on D2.

DC, your statements against me are arguments against yourself. You're actually convincing me that you're scum more and more. You're unarguably the #1 person who's use prolific posting to look like you're concerned about town, whereas very little of the content is protown. You never give up discussions. You keep them going past the point of usefulness. I'm concise and know when to stop. You're also the #1 reason this game is so long and confusing. All of your activity today is verbose, headache-inducing, painful to read, and talking in circles. It makes rereading and analysis a bitch.

[Honest Abel]

You made the very first unnecessarily long post in this game. Remember when I asked who you would have killed N0? You're also padding your arguments with fluff. Please, from now on, just try to get to the point and say nothing else. Thank you in advance.

[Honest Abel]

Hey, I'm looking at dicknose's and cavjj's reasons for voting IAI and they don't look too good. It would probably be stronger to say they don't look good after IAI flips town, but since we still have some more time today, it might be worth everyone looking them over. Here they are:

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p3322748
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p3322481

cavjj's reasons just either don't make any sense or don't add up to wanting to lynch someone. Also note that IAI has been consistently saying cavjj has been acting scummy. dicknose sort of rests on the laurels of the general consensus of IAI, which I think may be slowly shifting townward.

[Honest Abel]

Here's an example for you:

Why? Because I thought that perhaps some...

Nobody asked why.

[Honest Abel]

That whole section about asking me if I'd prefer you saying "kill the IC" is not necessary. It's not going to change anything about how we perceive your long answer to my simple question. Just accept that some people make points about things and just try to make your own instead of trying to explain everything to death.

[Honest Abel]

VOTE: DarkClaymore

This is just what I believe.

[Honest Abel]

About cavjj:

D2: Almost all defense. Nothing much in the way of protown action. Sticking around but not doing much. My stabilizing defense of him seemed to make him think he can just sit back and watch what happens. Definitely have to ISO him at some point. Not looking too good.

By itself, it is up for further discussion, but considering what you list under D2 which I happen to agree with, it is newbscummyness imo.[/quote]Fair enough. Anyone else feel that cavjj's D2 actions are newbcum?

[Honest Abel]

EBWOP:

About cavjj:

D2: Almost all defense. Nothing much in the way of protown action. Sticking around but not doing much. My stabilizing defense of him seemed to make him think he can just sit back and watch what happens. Definitely have to ISO him at some point. Not looking too good.

By itself, it is up for further discussion, but considering what you list under D2 which I happen to agree with, it is newbscummyness imo.

Fair enough. Anyone else feel that cavjj's D2 actions are newbscum?

[Honest Abel]

Yeah, NS just FoS'd whilst.

cavjj is looking bad. Though #625 and #626 do not clear IAI in the slightest. More deflections and reactive play.

[Honest Abel]

Looking at meta is a good idea. Someone asking you to look at their meta actually ruins the purpose. If I were scum and playing poorly and said "Look at my meta, I'm better than that, so I'm not scum," it would invalidate the whole point, because I'm likely using it to my advantage. On the other hand, if someone else were to say "Look at Abel's meta, he ain't that dumb as scum," then that would be an excellent point.

[Honest Abel]

DC, meta is a good idea. While every scum might

try

to play as they play when town, few succeed against a good town team. It's worth looking into.

DC, again, you're not adding anything to the discussion here. Even if you were to somehow disprove IAI's point about meta, all you've done is disproved a point, which doesn't make us a single shred closer to figuring out whether he's town or scum.

[Honest Abel]

Sure, but two things: #632 is long as fuck; #635 added nothing to the discussion.

[Honest Abel]

Just a notice: starting today, I'm going to try to stop playing mafia at work unless I really have nothing else to do for a period of time. So see you guys later tonight.

[Honest Abel]

It was a good point, thank you.

Is nobody else considering voting for DC?

[Honest Abel]

cavjj, are you voting IAI because you find him irrefutably the scummiest player, or is there some benefit you think we'll get out of it on D3 depending on his flip?

[Honest Abel]

We have two chances to lynch one scum, and overall three chances to lynch two scum no matter what (correct me if I'm wrong). I think we really need to consider the benefit of lynching each player over just trying to lynch scum today and nothing else.

[Honest Abel]

In other words, I would be fine with lynching IAI if this were D1. But with tough times ahead, it might be better to come up with a plan. I'm going to make a list of positives and negatives for lynching everyone, probably tonight, so that we have a starting point for discussion. That is, if anybody actually wants to discuss. I think DC is the best bet right now, but when I tried to explain why, it got really confusing.

No, it's not the same thing. You're looking for one scum, I'm looking for a plan that gives us a better chance at finding two scum.

[Honest Abel]

Who cares who dies tonight? How is determining who's most likely to die going to help us?

[Honest Abel]

Abel, you were saying last page to analyse everyone in an effort to successful lynch the two scum, surely caring who dies is a pretty big issue?

How are we going to deduce who mafia are going to kill before they do it? What purpose would that serve? They're going to kill me. There, I said it.

[Honest Abel]

Yeah, but I've noted suspicion of everybody, even dicknose a little, I'm posting a lot, and I'm, like, really smart.

I usually die young without a doc. Exception could be if I'm focusing on one or two people and I'm wrong. That's a great reason to leave someone alive, but I don't think that can be said this time.

P.S. still not proving how this conversation isn't useless.

[Honest Abel]

dicknose, NS.

I find the fact that NS pointed out suspicion of DC but then went suddenly all in for whist/IAI to be a little suspicious. If DC flips town, that would clear NS for me. If DC is scum, NS would be a potential buddy. Other than that, NS has been very protown so far.

[Honest Abel]

EDIT: duplicate
~singer