Mini 1195: The Beehive Mystery (GAME OVER)

[Magic Trainer]

Sup. I'm Lat, nice to meet you. Anyway. I'm finished with my first hyper read through (Will be reading through again), and I'll have arguments and all that jazz sorted out this afternoon. (Debating whether or not to post my raw notes, I probably will)

[Magic Trainer]

Day One: Vote Count Seven (The final count)

Ivan the Pleasant (1) –

Acronach

Acronach

(7) – ConfidAnon, ICEninja, Captain Spoon, Beck, Subgenius, rblinker123, Greymarble
Captain Spoon (1)- SleepyKrew
Greymarble (2)-

YankCane151

, Ivan the Pleasant,

Not voting: (2) – Tommy, Da Koolzzy

Noted for reference. May come back this later, but regardless it helps ME see.

***

Here are my raw notes, in all of its naked glory. Apologies for the horrible organization. You're better off just reading the stuff in the boxes. I'll get something more coherent later today.

#9 (Captain Spoon): +Scum
#13 (subgenus): subgenus is probably obvious town.
#14 (Beck): Huh. Incog theory. Neat.
#15 (Beck): +Town Response. I have no idea why however.
#16 (blinker): +Scum/ I haz serious suspicion BUT IT TOO DANGERIOUSY FOR SERIOUS VOTES.
#18 (Ivan): +Town. At first I was pissed that he ignored blinker. But then I realized Yank was ridiculous. Pretty Neat post.
#20 (Yank): Scum reaction. He's too passive aggressive. Why isn't he lynched? (<----- This is the part where I looked at the 1st post then face palm'ed myself. DISREGARD IVAN PRAISE.) >.>

…

#21 (Captain Spoon): Yeah. I kinda want to know who Ivan's hydra heads are too.
#24 (Captain Spoon): +Town.
#50: (IceNinja) Mhm. Time to start skimming. Screw it. Gonna go to the last post and work backwards. "Town also rarely needs to state that they're town, particularly this early. Another thing I do subconsciously as scum."

+Scum right here. You do that as town as well.

<Btw Pg3 made my eyes bleed. Please dear god let's find a nice medium between wall-o-texts and sentence fragments>

#53: (subgenus) Over defensiveness is not a scum tell. Come on. / WoahKay, misread this post nvm
#84 (Sleepy): Please stop experimenting. <Reads Post #92. Horray!>

<Pg6 is kinda demotivating. Trying to hard core skim. Anyway. From a rough outline I can tell nothing's going to happen within 3 pages. Lets see if I'm right.>

<But first. >.> Time to spice up the time line.> <Skips to end.>

#646 (blinker): Yeah. He's still scum.

#638 (blinker): I wish I was a day vig. Seriously.
#635: (Tommy): Oh Gods. It's bad when a game becomes lurker hunting. Very Bad. Me thinks I can help change this. Hopefully.
#625: (Llamarble): This seems reasonable.

<Meh. Not in a note taking mode. I'm just going to cheat and hyper skim.>

[<Still Skimming some stuff. Anyway. I read blinker's Iso. I have no idea why he hasn't been lynched. It's difficult for me to articulate but I just don't get a sense that he WANTS to find scum. For instance, just look at the amount of times he's made a serious vote. Once. He writes plenty, and I'm sure it looks like he's an active contributor, but he's not. And that's the thing. He looks like something he's not. <Methinks I haven't done justice to my explanation so… expect more.>] <---This is Important.

<Back to hyper skimming>

Random note. Ice seems town to me. This has never happened to me before. Neat. (Pg 18/19)

<Woah-Kay. Read Day 1 backwards. Nothing new. blinker's still scum. Feels like the same people kept getting picked on. Hope I find something more coherent when I sleep on this. I'm disappointed in the lack of town reads I have.>

<Pg 556> <I wish Grey didn't replace out. I like him. He's cool. I WANT to believe that grey vs Ice is town on town, but both make okay arguments. Anyway tbh that isn't too important right now, would rather they stop and focus and blinker.>

<557> <I have no idea why I think Beck is town, but I'm pretty okay with that>

<563> <Conversations like this make me sad. Lets stop.>

#564 (Captain Spoon): +Town. This is good posting. Although his theories aren't necessarily the best reasoning, dispute agreeing with his conclusion, this feels like pro-town motivation. Neat.

#587 (Tommy): Pretty much this whole time I'd had a weak town read on Tommy but I have no idea WHY. I wish he'd post more. Really, please do.

<Kay. Finished my Hyper Skim. blinker's obv scum. Jil's also probs scum.

SPARK NOTES VERSION <---- Read this if nothing else (the blinker paragraph is important too)

Beck is town. {Ivan/Ice/Llama} keep backing in and out of town which is annoying. A flip will probably help. And Koolzzy/sub/Captain Spoon are hanging out in limbo. Not good.

So. Without further ado. I shall reread Day two, and then we can band together and kill blinker. I look forward to your cooperation.

-I skipped out on some the heavy arguments the first time around seeing as they haven't amounted to anything. Will be happy to re-check fully this if it seems I missed something relevant. (But then again considering lurker scum is the one getting slapped, I doubt it.)

---Kay, not reading anymore today. Gots to let everything sink in.

To Do

-Explain why blinker is scum (Concisely)
-Reread Ice/Llama/Ivan
-Try to get those limbo reads out of limbo

***Attempted Reread. (lulz)

#105 (sub): wut. Keeping your vote on someone you don't think is town but a frazzled newbie?
<Pg 5 is piss poor arguments about proper game play>
#129 & #131: >.>? Am I supposed to take these two posts seriously? (CC) Noted for reference.
<Pg 9: Bleh. Too many semantic arguments. Getting bored with the he said she said business. In general I agree with Ivan's argument regarding the Sleepy business.>
<Pg 15. Alright. Same Arguments over and over. The Mason stuff is pretty neat however. PS, I have no idea why anyone past this point would even think about lynching Yank>

I'm starting to feel like Ivan's being ignored. EVERYONE ignores his suspicion of Tommy, sub is mentioned a bit, but it turns into an irritating debate, and blinker was ignored as well.

<#518: This is a pretty good list.>
<#536: Yeah. Tommy's obi scum. Sheeping the latter part of this. Disagree with his Ice sentiments though>
<#543: The blinker town read is wrong>
<WoahKay. Read in full. Didn't really gain much regardless.>

Update

Town

Ivan
Ice
Beck

Scum

blinker
Tommy
Jil

Null

sub
CC
Llama

Arguments and Jazz coming up later. I need a break.

[Magic Trainer]

Well Well Well. No. Don't act like it was just one post.

A slightly more coherent post. My Sincerest apologies for block quoting this however.

Vote: Ivan the Pleasant his photo looks scummy

I agree that Beck's joke did seem odd, as if you were town you wouldn’t want to joke about being scum as it directs suspicious straight to you and things like that can have people straight onto you? However, whilst I have some suspicion over Beck's joke, I think we should be precautious with voting as it’s a little earlier.

Serious suspicion is clearly less important than RVS voting for blinker. He's worried about voting but he does it anyway just for the sake of participating? <--- Scum blending in.

Also about Captains statement about no-voting is anti-town, I disagree as I don't necessarily agree that not voting is anti-town, you can still help the town by pushing and pressuring other players without votes. Other people have votes on other players and then someone else can develop on that without a vote. Also unnecessary votes can easily start and bandwagon over something little and therefore could go against town.

Translation. Hello. I don't like voting, because it makes me accountable for my actions. I like to silently echo others sentiments. Sure, I've listed PLENTY of reasonable things you can do in absence of voting, but I don't really do them. No, what I want to do is wait for when it's SAFE to vote.

PS. Being over cautious is also a scum tell.

Ivan: Although, it is useful to vote and pressure it is not essential to vote to pressure players there’s other ways. Acronach’s analogy of the gun fight and voting doesn’t fall apart, there’s other ways to pressure players and scumhunt without placing a vote on someone, and about the difference between this game and a gun fight, even though the sides haven’t been declared then being careful with your vote is valid as it represents taking random shots, your unaware who town or scum is so then your randomly taking shots and it could go against the town, so it can be better to carefully vote and pressure players another way.

Useless (Incorrect) game theory. More over caution. Seriously, his alternative is the mysterious "other ways"

-Fuck. We're getting to the 200 page mark and the only thing I know about him as that he's not leaning scum on Beck, and that he made a useless vote.

Post Four gives me a head ache to read so here's a link. Essentialy, the most concrete thing he says is "I'm leaning scum on Sleepy." coupled with a bit of passive aggression. And some more game theory about not voting.

--My problem is nothing here is concrete. He says it's weird that they'd be defending each other and putting themselves out so much if they're scum. Tiss an excuse to piss about.

Post (Iso) 5 surprises me. This actually seem like a legitimate attempt to scum hunt Sleepy.

ICE: I can still help find scum without putting down a vote. It's not waiting for someone else to find it, it’s simply I felt i wasnt ready to put down a vote on sleepy, there wasn’t enough suspicion and if Sleepy continues to do suspicious stuff then I’ll stick a vote down.

Woah Kay. Translation, I'm waiting for more people to hop on so it's ok for me to bandwagon.

Iso #7: Some Mason stuff.

Iso #8: Wee let lurkers live, doing nothing is fun! Then some stuff about whether Spoon wants to lynch him or not.

Iso #9: Kay. He finally gets the balls to vote. Took him nearly 500 posts however. Anyway, this is a horribly opportunistic vote. Refer back to the bit I mentioned "I want to vote when it's safe to bandwagon".

Iso #12: More passive aggression towards being called scum by Ivan.

Iso #13: Suspicion of Grey. This is just going after an easy target. iirc all his suspects at this point consist of Sleepy/Acron/Llamarble. The former two were prime time suspects and the latter is suspected for his hammer.

Iso #16: More passive aggression. Come on.

Iso #18: Oh gods more over caution. Fun Fact. In this post he claims that everyone should pressure Kool because they've done little. But he doesn't do so in this post. Or his next posts. Weee. Btw. Interaction with Ivan is weird as hell.

Lets put this into perspective. Ivan wants to KILL blinker. Then blinker says,

Well monsieur, if you shall allow, I have, erm, a word of advice, I shall like to deliver to you.

"Proceeds to lecture Ivan about being organized"

The fuck? blinker's desperate to avoid conflict with Ivan.

Iso #19: Wee lurker lynch. Easy lynch. Yay!

----So, let me try to sum this up.

We've got the horrible obsession with not voting, because he's scum who doesn't know WHEN to vote. He's blatantly just here to blend in (See 1st post/later suspicions), and his choice of scum suspects is opportunistic. (See voting/timing of when he voices his opinions) Then we've got the passive aggression, (early interactions with sleepy and Ivan) trying not be accountable ect (lack of voting till the time is right).

So. To anyone who disagrees, I would like concrete reasons as to why blinker isn't the villain I say he is.

Vote: blinker

More votes please.

[Magic Trainer]

Oh hey. I see Jil here. Neat.

Jil, what is your opinion on... anything?

[Magic Trainer]

Was it something I said?

[Magic Trainer]

A Jil lynch is acceptable, but not a preference.

I'll wait a bit before vote shifting if the lynchees are locked in that category however.

[Magic Trainer]

Mod: Vote Count plz

Responses and stuff afterwards. Me has a neat idea though, but I have no idea if it'll get results.

[Magic Trainer]

Vote: Da Koolzzy

Sheeping Ice's case as well

Reading all 8 pages in one go gave this head a bit of an ache, after a tiring couple of days. As soon as I have time to go over things at greater liesure,

I will do so, and get reads on people. Until then, maybe our other head will have something to say.

Also, note that that was a list of skimreads and gutreads, and I know better than to vote based on that. I have been rereading and gathering more evidence, since I have more time now than I did early on.

Attacks will be coming soon, I guarantee it.

So. I somehow missed two pages when reading up. I am now having trouble finding the questions directed at me. And it is later than I thought it was. I will not unvote right now, because I still happen to think I am right.

We'll see what I think tomorrow, with a fresh mind, and reading through concerns, and seeing what my other head thinks. For now, I need sleep. >.<

I will hunt someone down tomorrow, after some ISOs

.

My lack of posting is an issue I wish to fix.

This day, either my other head or I will be doing a full and thorough reread of day 1, with comprehensive reads intermittently throughout. I too feel as if I have been useless, and my main attempt at usefulness has been attacked as scummy, as well as my policy vote. I am unsure of policy lynches, but I do believe in attacking someone for hindering the town.

This is not enough, and I know that, more is coming,

but I thought I'd start to be a bit more proactive now that I actually can.

Putting stuff together between heads. Bigger stuff on the way.

Alright. I'm getting on this site waaaaaay to much so I need a break >.> It's hard resisting the urge to spam the hell out of this thread.

Anyway. Here's what I think. Da Koolzzy/Tommy/blinker. ATLEAST 2 out of 3 scum are there. Jil is only maybe scum. Gut is bothering me, so here's what I propose. We run up Koolzzy and Jil both to L-1.

Then at that point I'd like either BLINKER or Tommy to hammer. This way, we have to legitimate wagons to get SOMETHING out of regardless of what Jil flips.

Thought this hilarious btw.

Putting stuff together between heads. Bigger stuff on the way.

Last visited: Thu Jul 07, 2011 1:51 pm (Da Koolzzy)
Last visited: Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:15 am (The Kool)
Last visited: Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:33 pm (Dazzy)

>.> I have a feeling Da Koolzzy is going to be in catch up mode, for all of time. I'm calling bull shit on the two of them legitimately trying to scum hunt.

[Magic Trainer]

It's their sig "Hydra of The Kool and Dazzy"

[Magic Trainer]

I have no idea, considering I'd need both flips.

Day 2 has been pretty much. "Woo, Acro flipped town. Sleepy's kinda scummy. Let's kill him... Jill is also useless. Lets kill her."

Then some minor skirmishes. What I'm thinking is, if we two decent wagons we can compare and contrast them PLUS the whole process is more useful than "Yo Jil, stop complaining about being a VT, girlfriend, and post more."

Edit: WoahKay blinker. No, that's wrong.

[Magic Trainer]

Wait for people to respond, it shouldn't take too long. Btw, what's your read on Koolzzy & Tommy, blinker?

Subgenius, what do you think? Am I crazy?

[Magic Trainer]

Not artificial, Jil's already on the noose and Koolzzy's the second contender.

Besides Ivan and Llamarble are both probably town. Why do you suspect them again?

[Magic Trainer]

Llama, did you notice something neat about Tommy's interactions with me? Plus his reaction to my blinker case.

I gotta know if I'm on to something.

(Oh btw neither Koolzzy or Jil will actually attempt to post anything worth while unless they're at L-1. This is also an important reason why BOTH of them need to put at L-1)

[Magic Trainer]

unvote

More later. But this should get pretty fun now. I wish Ice would post more btw.

[Magic Trainer]

Yank's list was literally just people who voted for him.

[Magic Trainer]

Mod: Vote count plz

[Magic Trainer]

I already knew that. Not sure why you're telling me.

[Magic Trainer]

You're missing the whole point. I'm dropping this.

Side note: Working on something. Should have it done within 2-3 days.

[Magic Trainer]

Chapter One:

WHY TOMMY IS SCUM

A novel, by the devilishly handsome narrator, yours truly

Playing as scum is like being a soccer referee; you have to run back and forth just like everyone else, but you don't actually get to play. Tommy on Day 1 is a PERFECT example of that. He enters the game with PLENTY of opinions regarding players alignments, but there is no vote.

Without voting, he lets other people take full responsibility for the wagons, meaning people get lynched without him getting his hands dirty. He leads on others suspicions, without putting himself out there. This is ideal scum play. Look like you're doing shit without actually doing it.

So, when I entered this game and stated Tommy one as of my scum reads, he ignored it. Completely. Hell, in my case against blinker I criticized blinker for voting Llamarble based on his hammer, this is the same reason Tommy was voting Llamarble. Yet he ignores THAT as well. This isn't how town responds. In the very LEAST town would question these specific points. But Tommy doesn't because he's scum. Why should he bother to ask me why I think he's scum when I was busy attacking someone else?

He just parrotted the rest of the people who went "herp derp" MT's town, I like MT's case. Completely ignores my suspicions of him, EVEN when he was responding to my idea, he doesn't even bother to ask WHY I would ever suspect little ol him. Instead he questions the results of my idea, not my suspicions, what?

Town would be naturally suspicious of anyone who suspects them. Even if they believe they are being suspected by town, they will confront the Townie's suspicions and request and explanation.

Instead.

Tommy immediately decided he liked my case (most likely because others held this opinion at the time), ignored my suspicions of him, and even later on when I put him on the spot light, he doesn't bother to ask WHY I suspect him? Why? He was curious to know when Ivan asked, so why not ask me as well? (Because he's scum who doesn't care atm)

When a town looks at a case that is overall decent, but has a few minor things they disagree with, they'll bring them up and discuss them. When put on the spot light, town is going to wonder WHY they're being suspected.

Instead, even though I know there are parts of my case that conflict with his beliefs, he ignored this as well. And it's something he brought up repeatedly. Hell, take a look at this comment by Grey, who stated he knew 2/3 scum in X list. I said a similar thing, but no reaction to my accusation.

Chapter Two:

THE LIFE AND TIMES OF JEKYLL AND HYDE (Ivan)

Sub, you were wondering why I previously had a town read on Ivan, no? Consider this, if blinker is a timid character of generic suspicions and passive aggressive tendencies, then Ivan is his antithesis. He's clear, direct, and most notably of all, I agree with his reads. I can easily relate to WHY he suspects certain people and understand his reasoning. Honestly, the only thing I don't like his reluctance to explain himself, and walk in a straight line. If Tommy turns up scum I can easily see Ivan's play as blatant bussing. It works even better with both heads shooting in opposite directions. Consistently attack your buddies, but don't drive them over the edge. In the mean time, just piss around. Both hydra heads are competent players to realize their schizophrenic play is bad, which supports my bussing theory BECAUSE their schizophrenic play severely lowers their chance of actually driving a lynch through.

But I'd rather wait for a Tommy flip before considering Ivan for a lynch. Sure, Sub could be scum as well but I'm less sure of that. Either way it's notable.

Chapter Three:

DON'T KILL JILL GUYS

Actually I don't really care. But she's not scum, nor is Llamarble.

Chapter Four:

THE THREE STOOGES

Ice, Beck, and CC are all most definitely town. I don't feel like explaining.

EPILOGUE:

WE NEED TO KILL TOMMY. HE NEEDS TO DIE.

Authors Note:

blinker, sub, and Scott can all rot in purgatory. The filthy scoundrels keep bobbing back and forth from null to scum and back again. Bastards.

Vote: Tommy

This needs to happen.

[Magic Trainer]

..FUUUUUU

The above was me.

[Magic Trainer]

Let me try again, what do you think about Tommy?

[Magic Trainer]

Vote: Jil

Off to destruction and chaos.

Response to Tommy later.

[Magic Trainer]

^This, seriously, hurry the hell up and claim without reading.

[Magic Trainer]

unvote

[Magic Trainer]

So, I've been rereading Sleepy to find all this PRO OMG SUPER DEFENDING.

But all I see him calling Acro a vi, and his final conclusion is "Acro is no way in the clear"

Is the uber defense we're all talking about or am I missing something?

[Magic Trainer]

Because I knew, because I knew, because I knew.

Huh. Weird. I could have sworn I didn't mention it at all, the closest thing I've said was I was sheeping Grey's suspicion. Still really bothers how you've seemed to ignore this all.

What? Half his reads have no reasoning whatsoever! If you happen to know why they're there, could you enlighten the rest of us?

Sub's case is fairly straightforward. I'm assuming we suspect you and blinker for similar, if not same reasons.

Can you show me an example where somebody defended another person so strongly day 1, and they were both town and not masons together?

Just search for the word shotty and skip to the end. David decided to be a fucking idiot and mislynch me because I had a correct consistent town read on another idiot >.>

Not really all of day one, but I was against Shotty's lynch for pretty much the whole game and called him town iirc.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

Another game with, but with Incog. In the beginning I was vicious against Blackcloak but he refused to lynch him. For good reason too. He also defended me as well when I near the lynch threshold.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

I'll reread Sub and Giitahslot. It looks like there may be enough support for a Sub-flashwagon, and Giitah disapproving of his own counterwagon raises a worryflags for me.

I can accept a sub flashwagon.

It's not just the VI accusation. Have a look at subgenius's anthology.

>.>

<.<

This is some pretty weak shit.

Sleepy: I agree with this player's action. I agree because I think he had X motivation. I'm giving this player a chance to react. I think he's an idiot which is why he sucks at this game.

>.> Brilliant

Why would Scum Sleepy want to defend Acro again? >.>

sub proved he wasn't a mason already so sub is an acceptable lynch

FFS. I REALIZE BY NOW THE MASONS ARE ALREADY PRETTY FUCKING OBVIOUS BECAUSE OF HOW FUCKING #### THE "MAYBE MASON" POOL IS BUT LETS NOT BE BLATANT ABOUT IT BECAUSE IF WE'RE LUCKY, THE SCUM MIGHT BE A BUNCH OF DIMWITS WHO HAVEN'T FIGURED IT OUT. I DON'T CARE IF WE ATTACK "MAYBE MASONS", BUT LET'S NOT PLAY THE FUCKING POE GAME.

YOG SOGGOTH.

-I'll say it again, neither Llama Dona Ding Dong and That Glit guy are scum. So can we have wagon #3 ready to go sometime soon?

[Magic Trainer]

I agree but,

BUT LET'S NOT PLAY THE FUCKING POE GAME

Unvote

Vote: Sub

Neither Llama or Glit's going to die. Neither of them has played the crime.

With me this makes a wagon of three, Llama & Glit are going to be free. (5)

Just one more till we've evened the score. (6)

(Oh btw this is just for shits n giggles but guess who's missing from this list?)

[Magic Trainer]

Hang on, matey. Did you say you were sheeping Grey's suspicion or did you not mention it at all?

Because those two things are different. It seemed to me that you sheeping Grey's suspicion was enough justification for an initial scum-read on me. I didn't think it was a well-founded suspicion, but I also didn't think it was so bizarrely out there that it couldn't fool a new replacement who'd been skimming. As I've mentioned, I felt that I'd addressed Grey's point already, so I left it. When you presented a substantive case, of course I saw the need to answer. I've never ignored you.

Heh. This is the only part where I explained before my case,

<#536: Yeah. Tommy's obi scum. Sheeping the latter part of this. Disagree with his Ice sentiments though>

I take it you didn't really read my post? Or am I misunderstanding something?

@Beck, What else has Sleepy done?

[Magic Trainer]

If you've read it, then what's the question? I agreed, and still do agree with Llama's sentiments about your lack of voting Day 1 (Yes I'm aware you've explained it, and I don't buy it)

Why are you against the sub wagon?

[Magic Trainer]

...I've got to stop skimming >.> I assumed it was a read of everyone >.>

My bad.

[Magic Trainer]

Hello, deadline's approaching.

Llama, Glit, votes por favor?

Btw, Ivan the Terrible is most likely foilist13 in case anyone was wondering.

[Magic Trainer]

Oh Come on, you might as well admit it.

1. Archaebob is your partner. WHO ELSE is a perfect match when you guy's have played so many games?
2. Posting Style. It's similiar.

3. You posted a V/La notice in your other games

[Magic Trainer]

Anyway, it's relevant.

Tell me how about your relationship with one another, I'd figure you'd both would easily cooperate and share similar views, preferably at the same time. No?

[Magic Trainer]

Sub, can you tell me what your three strongest reads are?

[Magic Trainer]

Okay. Sub my man, let me try to understand,

1. Ivan, because he's stubborn and doesn't post his reasoning.
2. Llama cuz of "LOL U HAMMAH!" + ????
3. Beck because ??????

Do these look like strong reasons? Because right now, it looks like this.

ALL ARE PICKING OUT THE EASIEST SHALLOWEST AND LEAST MESSY THINGS TO TALK ABOUT.

This is why you're going to die.

[Magic Trainer]

Btw, what do you think of Tommy? Still bland?

I mean, he's certainly sticking up for you so,

I think he's town. He's been scum-hunting hard. He's been digging up dirt on Beck. He was a key player in the Acronach case - I know Acronach turned out to be town, but he was scummy and Subgenius helped to show that.

What'dya think boss? Still bland? I'm kind of surprised he wasn't mentioned in one of your reads. I don't think you've ever payed much attention to him, or made an effort to anyway.

What's your straightforward, full read on him?

[Magic Trainer]

Tommy > Sub > Ivan

Does ANYONE have a town read on Tommy? ANYONE?

[Magic Trainer]

UNOFFICIAL VC

Subgenius (4)- Ivan the Pleasant, Beck, Magic Trainer, Llamarble
Jilynne1991 (2)- Captain Spoon, rblinker123
Llamarble (4) - Scott Brosius, Tommy, ICEninja, Subgenius

Not Voting: Giit

Deadline is in 2 days, 7 hours, 15 minutes.

(5 PM EST on July 22.)

Giit, vote Sub please. Ice, vote Sub as well. Trust me.

Llama & Giit are townity town town town. I don't even know why Beck is up for discussion.

[Magic Trainer]

They're both brilliant, amazing players. I used to read a lot of their games when I started out. I suppose you could say I'm a fan. They're usually really direct and blunt. They're not afraid of picking fights. I don't think I've ever played with either them individually, but ICE played a game with foilist once.

[Magic Trainer]

Nah, they're usually more active. Here they're kinda "hur hur this guys scum.... maybe I'll explain when I feel like it."

Pretty cool reading material. Town win day 2, no town deaths.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 53&t=14954

[Magic Trainer]

That's a scummy as fuck vote Llama, Scum Giit would have hopped on your wagon immediately, instead he's putting effort into getting reads. And YOU agree to an extent.

What happened to that? What happened to posting a sub case?

Slightly relevant: Btw, iirc there was one mini normal with 3 masons, anyone know which game it was?

[Magic Trainer]

I'd have considered the fact that there was at least one other player who wanted to hammer Acro and let them do it to make the town-lynching-wagon as town as possible, and I'd have considered the fact that I could avoid huge amounts of trouble by just making an epiphany wall about how scummy Acro was and voting him.

...What the hell does this have to do with anything?

Anyway, you clearly told us yourself that it was late, and you can't think properly when you're tired.

How the fuck are you supposed to perform some sort of master plan when you ALSO state you can't think properly during those hours? This isn't adding up.

I'm Okay with hammering Llamarble.

[Magic Trainer]

FUCK THAT.

Last words or I'll kill you.

It better be good Llama.

Just look at the end of D1.
I say "we shouldn't lynch Acro" and the next 4 posts are "maybe we wagon marble instead"

and then I'm like WELL FUCK THAT

and hammer.
I did not have enough townleaderpoints to make a new wagon happen on somebody I actually wanted to lynch.

It makes perfect sense for you to be scum freaking out now that you're bull shitting about it.

[Magic Trainer]

Yeah. Don't unvote,

He'll come around.

[Magic Trainer]

How many hours till deadline?

[Magic Trainer]

It's 1 AM in the morning.

I'll hammer when I wake up.

[Magic Trainer]

Alright, I woke up this morning without a shirt on.

WHAT THE HELL DOES THAT MEAN?

@Magic trainer: are any of your suspects on the marble wagon? If so do you still think it makes sense to hammer then? I feel as though marble is myslynch fodder and scum have pushed to get his lynch

Sub/Tommy

Llama is an good lynch with his latest shenanigans. I'll be pissed regardless of what he flips though.

Anyway, I don't believe that even HE can believe a no-lynch would be the best thing for town as opposed to lynching him. This is mafia 101. No lynches are

baaaad

[Magic Trainer]

MT, what are your thoughts about Sub and his play?

He's like Jun from our speed game. Part of me wants to believe him because of his earnest tone, but his reads are meh (Well, Llama's debatable now which makes me less sure >.>)

Sub, you might as well claim now.

[Magic Trainer]

Sub, if I asked you to hammer yourself, would you do it?

[Magic Trainer]

Meh. I'm sticking with the sub lynch.

Screw you Llama. I hate being unsure.

-I believe this is L-1

Someone go ahead and hammer.

[Magic Trainer]

Hot potato... is a very different game... when the people are starving.

It's more like,

my

potato!

Burnt finger tips and I don't give a damn,

my potato,

(Couldn't resist.)

[Magic Trainer]

YES!

Captain Spoon and I are now blood brothers.

[Magic Trainer]

Deadline is in 0 days, 2 hours, 1 minute. (5 PM EST on July 22.)

If today ends up in a no lynch I will rage.

There will be words.

[Magic Trainer]

Subgenius (5)- Ivan the Pleasant, Magic Trainer, Llamarble, Captain Spoon, Beck
Giitah (2)- rblinker123,
Llamarble (3) - Scott Brosius, Tommy, ICEninja, Subgenius

[Magic Trainer]

Tommy, I see you reading. It's hammer time.

[Magic Trainer]

We need an emergency replacement >.>

Today won't be a no lynch though.

[Magic Trainer]

Deadline is in (expired on 2011-07-22 17:00:00). (5 PM EST on July 22.)
[/color]

For reference.

[Magic Trainer]

Sub, do you have anything else you want to share?

[Magic Trainer]

What about Tommy?

[Magic Trainer]

Y'AI'NG'NGAH
YOG-SOTHOTH
H'EE-L'GEB
F'AI TRHODOG
UAAAAH

Vote: Llamarble

If he turns up town, then Sub/Tommy need instant death. If he's scum… then I need to look over my reads again.

[Magic Trainer]

CC & Blinker were obvious Masons, I'm pleased to be right. Ice, if you're not convinced just Iso's blinker's 1st post or so. He was like.... "HOLY SHIT GUYS DONT WAGON YANK. I'm gonna go be over cautious and do nothing now"

Sub kill makes me feel angsty, though this is good, now I won't be wasting me breath and be like "Woah guys, he could still be scum!"

-Will read up

Pre-Effort Reads

Town

Beck
Ice
Scot
Giit

Scum

Ivan
Tommy

(Yeah I realize nothing's changed... I'm not sold on Beck scum atm, but erm, let me illustrate something real fast with a VC. But, I think I can wrap this up pretty fast.

-Oh btw, if we have a vig, then I'm debating on whether he or she could claim or not. If One-Shot, then fuck yeah, please claim. Litterally no reason not to right?

But, if we have a regular vig, then here's the deal. We have TWO confirmed townies today, PLUS it's more likely the Mason'll get to live considering scum will be like "oh don't hurt us plox".

-Thoughts? Please, I think we can break the game with this.

[Magic Trainer]

Subgenius

(4)- Ivan the Pleasant,

Llamarble

, Beck,

Captain Spoon

,
Giitah (1)-

rblinker123,

Llamarble

(6) - Scott Brosius, Tommy, ICEninja,

Subgenius

, Giitah, Magic Trainer,

Not voting: (0) – Nobody

-This is me being lazy atm but only ONE or less of Ivan/Beck is scum. If both, then that means all three scum piled on top of each in order save Llamarble. Beck's late reactions read off as townie, I'll explain why when I get a chance to brush my teeth & Floss.

-Giit's pretty obvious town based on his post replacement posts, his posting style reminds of Adel in a way, but that's irrelevant. His vote was most definitely town, PLUS if he was scum I doubt he'd be like, "Llama's town kekekeke" when there was a huge wagon on him, plus he was NEVER convinced of the Sub wagon either. When Scum-Giit entered the game he needed to fabricate his reads to get the game going, but he didn't. Town Giit took his time and used his own reasoning to come up with scum reads. (Now I just gotta figure out why Llama jumped off Giit >.>)

-This means the last scum is within the early bussing zone. Scott's certainly possible, but I think Tommy's more scummy individually. Ice has been reading mostly town to me which is pretty neat. I'll look and see if I can find some associate tells.

-Now it's time to brush my teeth.

[Magic Trainer]

-disregard my vig sentiments. Now that I'm awake.

I realize that's actually fucking stupid to do today.

[Magic Trainer]

Let's do it.

Vote: Ivan

----

I have extremely strong self preservation instincts as both alignments, though at least as town I don't lie outright to improve my standing. Actually, one more way things would have been different if I were scum is that I would have found a way to retract my townread on Acronach before hammering. I'd have considered the fact that there was at least one other player who wanted to hammer Acro and let them do it to make the town-lynching-wagon as town as possible, and I'd have considered the fact that I could avoid huge amounts of trouble by just making an epiphany wall about how scummy Acro was and voting him. Instead I totally ignored manipulation of politics and made the vote I thought made most sense and was honest about not really thinking Acro would flip scum.

I don't see how we get enough votes onto Subscum to lynch him, but I guess I'll
VOTE: Sub

Sub is DEFINITELY not vanilla. Ivan the Fool, aka archaebob has literally never in his career gotten a gut scum read on a vanilla townie. He invariably hits scum and PRs. The reason for this is the obvious similarity in their play, i.e. PRs are also forced to consider their own survival as a priority and other things as well. Sub has been a huge gut read for his since the beginning, and from my gut as well.

Oh btw, the quick n dirty reason Ivan needs to die instead of Beck is Ivan's selective treatment of Sub > Llama. What I'm saying is, there's no way he can accept Llama's self preservation play style when he's a vanilla when he can't accept Sub's. It doesn't make sense otherwise.

Vote: Ivan

[Magic Trainer]

unvote

I'm more than eager to hear what Ivan has to say. I'll be doing some rereading of Day 2.

[Magic Trainer]

Tommy, who are your top two scum reads?

[Magic Trainer]

please explain your reasoning for all 6 of your day 2 votes, and what caused you to eventually decide to hammer on marble even though you say that marble and giteh should not die today in an earlier post.

Holy misrep Batman >.> I can't tell if you're getting desperate, or if you're intentionally leaving out vital posts.

Blinker Vote: There's a whole fuckin case,
Da Koolzzy Vote: There's another whole fuckin case
Tommy Vote: There's ANOTHER whole fuckin case
Jil Vote: Deadline vote. No lynches are

baad

Sub vote #1: I didn't think either Llama/Jil were scum. I didn't have a town read on sub however, and he was the best possible lynch in mpov since we had time for another wagon.
Llama Vote: See quotes below. These are self evident, I shouldn't have to explain them.

Now, let's go back to the quote at the top of this post. I did not have a town read, or even close to a town read on Llama once he voted for Giit in response to the deadline. Maybe I need to be more blunt, but this is why I was happy lynching Llama in the end, even if I was uncertain.

That's a scummy as fuck vote Llama, Scum Giit would have hopped on your wagon immediately, instead he's putting effort into getting reads. And YOU agree to an extent.

What happened to that? What happened to posting a sub case?

Slightly relevant: Btw, iirc there was one mini normal with 3 masons, anyone know which game it was?

I'd have considered the fact that there was at least one other player who wanted to hammer Acro and let them do it to make the town-lynching-wagon as town as possible, and I'd have considered the fact that I could avoid huge amounts of trouble by just making an epiphany wall about how scummy Acro was and voting him.

...What the hell does this have to do with anything?

Anyway, you clearly told us yourself that it was late, and you can't think properly when you're tired.

How the fuck are you supposed to perform some sort of master plan when you ALSO state you can't think properly during those hours? This isn't adding up.

I'm Okay with hammering Llamarble.

FUCK THAT.

Last words or I'll kill you.

It better be good Llama.

Just look at the end of D1.
I say "we shouldn't lynch Acro" and the next 4 posts are "maybe we wagon marble instead"

and then I'm like WELL FUCK THAT

and hammer.
I did not have enough townleaderpoints to make a new wagon happen on somebody I actually wanted to lynch.

It makes perfect sense for you to be scum freaking out now that you're bull shitting about it.

Regardless of who's getting lynched, NO LYNCHES ARE BAD. (Unless it's mylo)

[Magic Trainer]

No where in that post I said I thought Llama was town, I was I was unsure so I went with my gut.

It's redundant for me to explain my vote AGAIN when I've already done so clearly. Don't waste my time.

[Magic Trainer]

Hi, I skimmed the last few pages. Nothing productive got done. Ivan-Vig threw a money wrench in, and I still don't think Beck is scum. So Tommy scum gets to die instead. Call me back when we get something productive done.

Vote: Tommy

I still don't think Ice is scum either.

In addition, Magic Trainer was clearly online at the time prior to the hammer - I can testify to that. Had he no lynched, that would have been a cause for some worry.

Actually, no you can't. There was a 30 minute difference between my last post in this thread and my hammer, I could easily say I had to leave or there was an emergency. In addition to that, I have my account set up so others don't see my username down below when I'm browsing the forum, meaning even if I was here, you wouldn't know.

[Magic Trainer]

That is L-1 btw.

(Mod, please be more consistent with vote counts, at least 1 every 2 pages)

I'll do my catch up post within a few days. I have some stuff to today plus another game that seriously needs my attention.

[Magic Trainer]

Alright, this is been bugging me as of late.

Why does

everyone

here have a fetish for the word "confirmed" and why do you hate town reads, beck?

Can we please stop using the word confirmed? Especially when I'm starting to think no one here actually knows what that simple word means?

[Magic Trainer]

I am sorry for letting two idiots take my slot.

[Magic Trainer]

Feel sad. Very Sad.

[Magic Trainer]

P.S (Sorry for posting mod/ couldn't resist since the game's over.)

(Sotty, any questions I can answer after the mod scene?)

[Magic Trainer]

Sorry town.

I am terrible in lylo's

meh. don't blame yourself. I would have lynched my replacement out of anger as well.

Couple important questions though,

1. Why does no one read my posts? (This is referring to everyone lacking the knowledge that I suspected Tommy/Ivan and had a late scum read on Llama. Seriously, I thought I actually did a good job on being more concise and content rich this game when I was here)

2. Why does no one understand my posts? (This is referring again to everyone having no idea why I suspected Tommy/Ivan. Am I just not good at articulating myself?)

3. Okay. This was infuriating. Why did the majority of people here have a town read on me, AND agree with some of my cases and suspect the player I was attacking, yet refuse to vote along with me?

---Please someone, dear god help me out and answer these so I don't make any screw ups with any of you in future games.

4. Why did people suspect of being scum because I did something pro-town? (Referring to hammering Llama)

Like seriously guys, there is nothing wrong with having a good list of obvious town players. The cost/benefit ratio for hammering Llama in that situation is not worth it. Even if I did that as scum (Which I'd never do, I'd let you fuckers suffer with a no lynch and then push that sub lynch easily), no one would regard me as

confirmed

town because of it, and if I was still around during lylo, then it'd be discarded as nothing.

But, if I was town and you guys let that slide and let me have fun with being obvious town (as town), then I'd probably get night killed as scum would freak out about having townies agree on their correct town reads. Meaning I'd die before lylo because we're all awesome enough to win this game via PoE if you let us.

5. Why the fuck did you guys lynch Ice? He was one of the most obvious town players this game. This is saying something considering he always looks fuckin scummy. (I'm assuming the Ivan hydra had Ice nailed as town and just wanted a town mislynch then a scum lynch.)

6. Sotty, what questions did you want to ask me if I were here? I'm curious.

[Magic Trainer]

Tommy should have been lynched Day 2 when litterally everyone had a null-scum gut read on him (+ not voting day 1)

But I'm probably whining since Day 2 actually worked out alright. I'm slightly more worried about people not understanding me however.

[Magic Trainer]

MT, your hammer while looking pro-town could easily be a scum hammer SINCE no mafia was on the counter wagon anymore

Sigh. Weigh the benifets versus the costs. The Costs outweigh the benefits to the point where I'd get fucking bankrupt as scum. I'm assuming you think everyone would classify me as

confirmed

town and let me go scot free in lylo. If this is your fear, then there are two important things to learn. One, most people are not as stupid as you think they are, they are well aware of WIFOM situations and thefor wouldn't in the strictest sense, confirm a player

indefinitely

. Second, in lylo, no one would have cared about me hammering for looking pro-town. I'd lose any town cred gained as scum and it'd be null. I'd then gain suspicion for while I'm still alive as well.

Occams Razor is generally reliable.

Your wishy washy voting for half the playerbase doesn't help either

Okay. You are making a poor generalization that "wishy washy" is bad. (Meh, I was actually tempted to bring up a couple instances of scum attacking me for being wishy washy.)

Were my Votes justified (Y/N)? (----> If the answer in any scenario is yes then disregard wishy washyness as a stupid wiki tell) Changing your mind is very natural, if not inevitable. Plus all my reads were consistent all around.

Beck/ICE/Spoon were all around town all the time. Llama/Jill/Scott/ were Null interchangeably Tommy was confirmed scum a long time ago. Ivan was scum to me on the condition that Tommy was scum. (Hence timidly pushing him/revealing his hydra head). I withdrew the blinker scum read when I realized he was a Mason, and I was forced to compromise on all my strongest reads because no one wanted to vote with me.

Blinker ---> People agree but refuse to vote
Koolzy/Jil ---> Compromise based on deadline/lack of support. People still objected even when they had scum reads on one or both.
Tommy ---> Deadline extension iirc yet no one followed
Sub ---> Compromised based on Lack of Tommy input/he was connected to Tommy/Ivan from mpov.
Llama --> Deadline lynch/called out scummy posts (Which I explained...). I don't even understand why people would question a literally last minute vote to save a no lynch.

The Common theme is I held consistent town reads and interchanged votes because I wanted a goddamn lynch to go through that was at least somewhat related to my stronger reads so I could connect the dots later.

[Magic Trainer]

Ah the questions are pointless now really. But basically, I hated how you made these big cases Tommy/blinker and then just dropped them as soon as the new sparkly came along. I can get that you were frustrated that no one was listening, but to me it was like you didn't really want to lynch these guys and that your cases were bluster. I never felt you truly push your Tommy case at all. And the case was good. I had convinced myself it was too good, but that's not the point. I think you need to beat on that drum a lot more. Don't just abandon your reads for the town. Yes there are times when you should compromise, but there are a lot more times where you should get a megaphone, stand on your soap box and ask over and over why we aren't lynching so and so.

The best way to get people to talk about your cases if you are feeling ignored is to single people out. "Hey Beck, what do you think of what I posted about Tommy in post yadda yadda?" That why you get direct feedback on the case you built AND you can work on convincing him and drawing others into your dialog. Repeat as necessarily.

Eh. I realized blinker was a Mason too late and hoped no one would notice. I really should have pushed Tommy harder, I don't know. Reflecting back I compromised waaay too much. I don't remember the exact reason why I let Tommy go so easily, it was probably due to deadline/inner-frustration. I did notice a small but very important technical problem in my case that made it harder to push the momentum.

I've got to ask though, what specific things do you think I should have pushed harder? I felt like I was translating a very strong gut read into logical points. Usually when I do that, my points tend to sound less persuasive than I believe them to be, hence why I'm a little unsure of how more persuasive I could have been.

Thank you very much for your input.

Oh well, life moves on.

Amen bro.

[Magic Trainer]

@Ivan, could we please see the hydra QT?

@Racer, I was probably too harsh when I insulted you. Kudos to correctly identifying scum.