Mini 539: Game over

[Incognito]

Vote: Justin Playfair

There's only room for one black and white photographic avatar in this village and that's mine.

[Incognito]

Incognito. I know what movie your black and white avatar comes from. Unless you know mine my avatar has yours at a disadvantage.

Bleh. My movie knowledge is failing me at this moment. I have no clue which movie your avatar is from but that doesn't mean mine's inferior! Yours is probably really obvious too.

P.S. Happy birthday, mod!

[Incognito]

He said they instead of he because of uncertainty of my sex, "they" refers to either.

I don't like the unneccessary defense of MafiaSSK.

Unvote
Vote Xtoxm

Ho1den, I'm not sure what you're getting at here. From what I've seen so far, MafiaSSK placed a third vote on Xtoxm, Ythill brought up an issue with MafiaSSK's grammar, and Xtoxm mentioned that he probably said "they" instead of "he" because MafiaSSK was unsure of Xtoxm's gender. MafiaSSK actually placed a vote on Xtoxm; I wouldn't consider Xtoxm's response a "defense" especially since I'd find it hard to believe that Xtoxm would defend someone who just placed a third vote on him. And since you're using this as a means of stepping away from the random phase, it seems like a crucial point. Could you please clarify?

@Apyadg: I believe that in a closed Mafia game nothing is really known about the role set-up. As the days progress and people's alignments are revealed due to deaths, the set-up should become more apparent.

[Incognito]

I believe pressure is justified here.

vote: MafiaSSK

@ Mafia: This is a pressure vote, putting you at L-3. Give a satisfactory answer to Apyadg’s question and I’ll unvote immediately.

Ythill: Just a quick note for you since you're new. IMO, I think a pressure vote loses its ability to pressure someone when you indicate from the beginning the purpose of the vote. It would be like me pointing a gun in your face telling you "Give me the money! And no I'm not gonna shoot you but give me the money anyway!". Just point the gun in the person's face and wait for the response... the effect is lost when you let the person know you're not gonna shoot them.

[Incognito]

With regard to MafiaSSK's actions and vote, I think a bit too much weight is being placed on the random voting phase. So far we've seen reasons ranging from someone not liking Kansas, to something about an anthill, to MafiaSSK's reason of finding someone suspicious, to people choosing not to participate in the random voting phase at all. The point is if a player chooses to participate in the random voting phase it's usually common practice to provide an explanation along with the random vote and MafiaSSK did just that. Quite frankly, I'm more suspicious of the people who have chosen to provide this MafiaSSK wagon with some momentum when it's still ridiculously early in the game. It's only page 2 of the thread - unless someone practically comes out of the starting block shouting "I'm scumz!" I think it's difficult to get a good read on anyone this early.

[Incognito]

Incognito seems to be setting himself up as the town's voice of authority, by answering game setup questions and making lengthy statements about game theory and such. This is often a scum tactic adopted by experienced players in a game with apparent newbs; you establish yourself as the wise man and can direct votes and thought processes later. Fortunately, this will come back to bite him when the inevitable rash of replacements occur and more vets filter into the blend.

Chron, this is a strange statement especially since I wouldn't even consider myself to be an "experienced player". I've only been on the site for a month and have only completed one Newbie game while this current game is my first mini-game ever. And since you've made the statement "this will come back to bite him when the inevitable rash of replacements occur" while you've also implied that my supposed "voice of authority" is a scum tactic, I'm guessing you've already come to the solid conclusion that I'm scum. Are you trying to divert attention away from yourself since you fall into the category of players who hopped onto the MafiaSSK wagon?

You're really okay with accepting the transition from "I think he's suspicious" (with no reasoning) to "I just wanted to jump on a bandwagon and lied about it"? At this point there's no good reason to give SSK this out when he did nothing to help himself. Scummy.

I'm not okay with his transition, but I think the votes were piling up a bit too quickly on one person especially since this whole argument against MafiaSSK began as a mistake in grammar. I don't think placing someone at L-2 on page 2 in a 12-person game seems reasonable - there's still one player (Natude) who hasn't even popped into the game yet as you mentioned and one other player who won't be voicing his opinion until tomorrow. Further, there were two people (Apyadg and ChronX) who jumped on the wagon even before MafiaSSK admitted to lying and who were justifying their votes on MafiaSSK based on what was said on Page 1.

Ythill, what were you trying to get at when you asked MafiaSSK your question in Post 19?

[Incognito]

I hardly voted him for a mistake of grammar, Incognito. I voted him because he said xtoxm was suspicious (without specifying what was suspicious) and then bemoaning that he got some votes. I am 100% sure that both of these reasons are quite clear in the post where I vote him (24, last of page 1) because I just read it.

ChronX, I didn't say you voted for him for that reason. I said the following:

Further, there were two people (Apyadg and ChronX) who jumped on the wagon even before MafiaSSK admitted to lying and who were

justifying their votes on MafiaSSK based on what was said on Page 1.

Where did I say that the grammar mistake was your reason for voting for him? MafiaSSK made a total of two posts on Page 1, but I mentioned that the argument against MafiaSSK really began after the grammar issue. Although, Ythill brings up a good point in saying that the argument against MafiaSSK

really

began when he placed the third "random" vote on Xtoxm.

(1) Mafia started doing what I like to call

sticking one’s head in the noose

, a behavior that is reminiscent of Ryan’s and Dylan’s play, among others, and one that is likely to lead to a mislynch without providing much information.

Who are Ryan and Dylan, Ythill?

[Incognito]

I'm not okay with his transition, but I think the votes were piling up a bit too quickly on one person especially since this whole argument against MafiaSSK began as a mistake in grammar.

Incognito, THIS is what you said.

I don't understand why you are trivializing the blunder M_SSK made and making it seem we are picking on him/her/it for a poor pronoun reference. Wait, maybe I do understand.

ChronX, I don't know if you're deliberately making these kinds of statements to misrepresent me or if you truly don't understand what I'm getting at. In any case, let me break it down for you so that there's no confusion.

Let's look at Page 1 again right at the point of Ythill's statement:

Hmmmm... three random votes in a row on Xtoxm, none of them with dice.

Vote:Xtoxm

Because they seem suspicious.

Why "they seem" instead of

he seems

?

Ythill points out that there were three random votes in a row for the same person (Xtoxm). Instead of following up that point with probably the more practical question of "MafiaSSK, why did you also choose to vote for Xtoxm, and what is it about 'them' that seemed suspicious?" he chose to pick on what seemed like nothing more than a grammar mistake. Therefore, it really

does

seem like the bandwagon began there (after Ythill pointed out the grammar mistake). Yes, Apyadg, you, and Ythill each provided your own reasons for voting against MafiaSSK but as I mentioned in my initial point, the bandwagon

began

after the grammar mistake. Here's what subsequently happened:

Hi all!

Sorry I was doing some things. Vote:Xtoxm Because they seem suspicious.

Voting without reason is also suspicious, you know, random voting is still ok-ish at this point, but saying you have a reason without justifying it is bad!

Vote: MafiaSSK

[/b]

This weird, vague post by Apyadg who seems to be reprimanding MafiaSSK for calling someone suspicious without justifying it. This seems ironic to me since in my opinion Apyadg really didn't justify his vote against MafiaSSK either. He merely said that MafiaSSK's actions were "bad" which could basically mean anything.

And then your post:

Great. So now the votes are tied between me and Xtoxm. And yes I was refering to Xtoxm as they rather than he because I was unsure of his gender.

unvote: xotxm
vote: MafiaSSK

There. Now it is untied. This is to pressure you to stop whining and, if you are going to cast a real vote during the random phase, to explain it.

Obviously your reason for voting for MafiaSSK was unrelated to the grammar mistake but like I said, the bandwagon

began after

the "grammar mistake" post by Ythill. Is that clear now or do you want to take another attempt at misrepresenting me?

[Incognito]

now you've realized he's not going to get lynched

And I realised, as I stated, that there's a good reason tonot lynch him.Accepting a good argument != scummy.

I actually agree with charter on this. Your choice of words above is somewhat weird as well. You mention that you realized "there's a good reason to not lynch him" but in reality, after I mentioned what I mentioned about the bandwagon that formed on MafiaSSK, two people (first Ythill and then charter) had already unvoted before you ever even had a chance to. In other words, MafiaSSK had went from an L-2 situation to an L-4 situation where he was nowhere near being lynched. If you still felt that MafiaSSK was the scummiest person above your baseline, then I don't see any reason for you to unvote him and place him at L-5 when keeping pressure on a person you consider scummy might be to your own benefit if you were town.

Well, I was the first to really point out any scummy behvaior, so I'd say that's bollocks too, before my post asking him to justify his claim of suspicious behavior, people were arsing around talking about his grammar and perception.

This is incorrect also. If you want to consider Ythill's post about "three random votes in a row without a die" a statement where someone points out scummy behavior, then it was actually Ythill who was first to point out scummy behavior, even though I disagree with his choice of a follow-up question.

For my first official, non-random vote, I'd like to

Unvote

and

Vote: Apyadg.

[Incognito]

EBWOP: That post came out weird. The way I worded it, it seems to read as though charter's unvote was a symptom of my post number 44 when in actuality Ythill's unvote seems to be the only one of the two directly related to post 44. Sorry about that.

[Incognito]

Incognito, you miss here what made MafiaSSK’s statement different from all those others. Whereas, for instance, your random vote on me was because there was only room in town for one black and white avatar, a reason no one is ever going to mistake for something serious…

…MafiaSSK said his vote was because he was suspicious of Xtoxm.

Now if you didn’t see this as fundamentally different before, do you now?

Yes, I've noticed from the very beginning that MafiaSSK's random vote was distinctly different from the others. While everyone else's votes were made in a joking manner using reasons that make no practical sense of being scum tells or true reasons to suspect someone of being scum, MafiaSSK's random vote bordered that very thin line of being either a random vote or a very serious one. He certainly could have done a better job of letting everyone know for certain that it was in fact a random vote by choosing a reason that seems more random than claiming "someone seems suspicious" or by even explicitly stating "this is a random vote" but all in all, I think his vote was actually beneficial for bringing about discussion - look how much discussion one random vote generated as opposed to the zero amount of discussion my random vote or your random vote generated.

For the most part I would like this clarification because the post you made which began this sequence was actually defending Xtoxm because Xtoxm had answered part of Ythill’s false case against MafiaSSK.

With regard to Xtoxm, I wouldn't consider my post 28 a defense of Xtoxm - mainly I wanted clarification from Ho1den since the explanation behind Ho1den's non-random vote against Xtoxm didn't make much logical sense to me.

Sequence of events:

1) MafiaSSK placed the third vote on Xtoxm.
2) Ythill makes his "non-case" against MafiaSSK.
3) Xtoxm answers Ythill's question "on behalf" of MafiaSSK.
4) Ho1den votes for Xtoxm for defending MafiaSSK.

It just didn't seem logical to me for Ho1den to claim Xtoxm was

defending

MafiaSSK when I'd find it hard to believe that Xtoxm would defend someone who just finished placing the third vote in the series of votes against himself. Since Ho1den thought Xtoxm's "defense" warranted a vote, I just wanted clarification and possibly some re-thinking on his part.

But you’ve also seemed reluctant to accept that there may be valid reasons for others to have voted for MafiaSSK unrelated to those in Ythill’s false case. You’re still questioning Apaydg on them.

I'm willing to accept that there were other valid reasons for others to vote for MafiaSSK - in fact, I mention that here in post 68:

Yes, Apyadg, you, and Ythill each provided your own reasons for voting against MafiaSSK but as I mentioned in my initial point, the bandwagon

began

after the grammar mistake.

I guess I was mainly questioning Apyadg at the point you mention because of his usage of the word "bad" which probably made his post seem more vague and ironic than it really was.

I hope this addresses your concerns. Let me know if you still would require some more explanation - you sure weren't kidding when you mentioned you have a tendency to make long posts!

[Incognito]

I'm still at work so I'll provide some feedback later today about the recent events. Did the mod ever get a

prod on Natude?

Also I'd like to see more content from Disciple Slayer - he came out of nowhere to place a vote on Apy and hasn't contributed much aside from that.

[Incognito]

@ Incog & charter: What are your reads on one another?

I certainly wouldn't go as far as you have to consider charter "definitive" town but as of right now, I haven't been able to form a strong opinion on him. I don't particularly like how he can go from making statements like this:

…MafiaSSK said his vote was because he was suspicious of Xtoxm.

I think it comes down to, do you think mafia made a joking vote but did a poor job of ensuring it came across that way, or do you think mafia was trying to build a case against xtoxm based off nothing. Personally, I think it was a joke he just didn't make it obvious.

and like this:

In your case, charter, your post timing has given you a few opportunities to attack players already under scrutiny but you have refrained.

Honestly, I don't think ssk is scum based on what he's said so far. I think some people took a confusing statement, and twisted it to no end to make him look like scum. However, he hasn't really done anything to show me he's town, so he very well could be.

where he seems to be leaning in favor of believing SSK is pro-town to more recent statements like this:

Incog gives me mixed feelings. Some of his posts don't seem to be pro town, in that he stuck up for SSK, something that seemed like a poor idea in the beginning, he should have no reason to come to his defense that early. However, others of his posts give me a good town feel, so right now I'm just watching him.

Here charter mentions I was "sticking up" for SSK when that's not true at all - votes were coming in so rapidly against one person over page 1 events that I immediately became more suspicious of the people on the bandwagon that formed so early than of SSK himself. I've already explained this pretty thoroughly in a bunch of posts where I've responded to ChronX and Justin Playfair... why charter still feels the need to make an inaccurate statement like this, I have no clue.

I need to do a read-up on recent events so that I'm posting ideas related to things that are more current. I guess I should also pm the mod since he doesn't seem to be creating vote counts or responding to our prod requests for Natude.

@Disciple Slayer:

You've been asked a number of questions from different sources now that you have yet to respond to. I'd like for you to become more active in the thread now so that your posts aren't as retrospective as they have been, otherwise I'm tempted to call you out on lurking. It seems like you've been avoiding scrutiny because you haven't been around to garner it.

[Incognito]

o_O Okay then.

Um yeah. I don't even know where to go after that one. I somewhat completed my read from where I left off. I'd love to comment on the Ythill/Justin Playfair arguments but they seem a bit over my head.

I got a response from the mod and apparently Natude has been prodded so I'm not sure if he'll end up getting replaced or not.

@Ythill:

I guess one question I have for you is what was the true reason you asked for the meta-information at the start of the game? I thought it was a bit odd at first especially since I've never seen someone ask for that information before. You mention that you asked for it to "forestall a mis-lynch later on". Justin Playfair mentioned from the start that he has a habit of making "very long posts" but recently you seemed to mock his posts when you mention that "accusations don't need to be direct and

982920019 words long

like the stab you made against me[...]". It just seems kind of odd to me for you to seemingly mock something that Justin Playfair mentioned upfront under your important "meta-information".

Also, before he left, I feel like Northjayhawk made a fair point here (although I wouldn't agree with him saying "best target"):

Because assuming the scum doesnt identify a power role, their best target would likely be the ones who are least likely to be lynched. Telling them that information point-blank without making the scum guess at it seems extremely foolish to me.

and while I will agree with your statement here:

Power roles and effective scumhunters are the most likely targets, Me reading someone as town proves neither of these two things about them and doesn’t really help scum at all.

do you not feel like at least part of your description of charter in post 98 is also at least somewhat of a decent description of one who is considered to be a good "scum hunter"?

I will say this: I feel like this part of Northjayhawk's argument against you seemed somewhat contradictory - he placed a vote against you but his argument against posting "most-likely town" and "least-likely town" lists as they help out the scum would only work if we assumed you were town. This would mean he was voting against you because he felt like you were being a bad townie and not because he felt like you were most likely scum, unless I've misinterpreted his argument.

[Incognito]

Mod, any news on a Natude replacement? Any news on a ChronX replacement? Any news on a Northjayhawk replacement? A general prod would be nice too for all of the players except Justin Playfair, Ho1den, Ythill, and me. I know it's the holidays and all but this game should certainly be more active.

[Incognito]

All: In case you're wondering, I'm still around. I plan to do a reread and a read-through of Shteven's posts (btw hi, Shteven) before posting some content later tonight. Glad to see this game is still being kept alive.

[Incognito]

@Shteven:

Could you just clarify what you mean by what you mentioned below - namely what I have bolded?

You also have a disturbing trend of trying to get one people's good sides by pointing out how fair and noble you are. Now, I've done this once in a current game of mine, but after I did, and was rightly called for it, I admitted the mistake and I'm being more careful about doing it again. Let me quote some of yours:

I’m willing to take my turn in the hot seat if need be.

Anyone else want to take a stab at me before we move on to other matters?

This is my second game but I spent two months reading the site before I signed up. Also, my IQ is 146. Not yanking my own chain here, just explaining that I am a quick learner.

Not trying to distract from attacks against me, keep ‘em coming if you like.

I do have a rather tame question for you.

And, as always, I invite attacks and suspicions. I'm as likely to be scum as anyone. You may fire when ready. Very Happy

It's starting to get old. I find it odd that ChronX called Incognito for it, but no one's pointed out Ythill doing it to a far greater extent.

I'm having a hard time understanding how the Ythill statements you've quoted are anything like what ChronX was calling me out for. ChronX was accusing me of taking on some sort of an experienced Mafia player role that becomes the "voice of wisdom" and guides the town to mislynches. How is that related to all of the statements you've quoted from Ythill?

My vote will remain on Apyadg as I still believe his actions are most suspicious, and I feel his exchanges with Ho1den and Ythill did nothing to clear my suspicion of him.

Also, I'm extremely leery of Disciple Slayer. Justin Playfair brings up information that's at least noteworthy about him with regard to how he was able to rapidly appear in the thread after I called him out for non-posting. I think more noteworthy though is how Disciple Slayer promised player summaries following his reread but instead, only followed that statement up with a player list and a vote on Shteven. That's twice now where Disciple Slayer has been able to look at things retrospectively, gather information from the evidence provided, and place a vote on the player feeling the most pressure at said time. Shteven still only has two votes (I believe) on himself but Ythill's posts against Shteven haven't seemed to die down or lessen in intensity.

[Incognito]

Well, Ythill, that was opportunistic of you and that certainly came out of nowhere. Anyway, I'll respond to your post.

Incognito has the fourth highest post count in the game, yet the second worst sig:noise after ChronX. He’s lead the most digressions. So he is active, yet posts less content than some players who are less active than he. Meanwhile, he directly references others’ inactivity nine times, including sending a prod to the mod. This game is slow and many of us have referenced inactivity a bit, but Incognito, who posts a lot of fluff, is establishing himself as the “lurker police.” Why? To establish that post count equals content? To draw suspicion away from his disinterested scumhunting?

It's cute how you attack me here on something that you yourself told all of us we may want to watch, out of respect for the replacements in your Post 143. Did you not notice when I began asking for prods to the mod and referencing others' inactivity? Somewhere around Page 5 where Natude still hadn't said a word, Disciple Slayer still hadn't posted any content even though he promised to upon returning on the 9th, and ChronX just finished mentioning that he would not be available until the end of that week. And guess what - on page 6 things worsened: Northjayhawk left, Ho1den said he would be inactive for a time, and ChronX asked for a replacement. To me it doesn't make sense to continue adding more and more content to a thread when it seems like at least half of the players aren't even participating. Did you not notice how active I

was

when it seemed like a fair majority of the players were also active? Since when is asking for more activity from all of the players a scumtell?

PBPA

• In #28 Incog defends Xtoxm under the guise of attacking Ho1den. This is his first serious post and we see his first incidence of fence sitting. This post can be played later as an attack or a defense (he ends up calling it an attack in #88, after Justin challenges him on it being a defense).

You make it seem like the game-related posts in the game of Mafia have to always be one of two extremes: either attacks or defenses. Where in Post 88 did I mention that I was attacking Ho1den? I distinctly remember mentioning that I was asking for

clarification

from Ho1den. After he provided clarification, I never went further to place a vote on him or an FoS or ask further questions - I felt his explanation was sufficient and didn't warrant an attack. Also, please if you're going to begin referencing post numbers, could you link the post it is you're referring to so people could get a clear understanding of what you're citing? Otherwise it looks like you're hiding something in an attempt to distort the facts to hopefully gain some support from the other players.

Incog also makes his first “voice of authority” post here, which I saw as not scummy in itself, as he simply answers Apyadg’s question. But the post thereby establishes Incog realizing that Apyadg is a true n00b (and therefore a good target?) because he doesn’t know about the closed setup.

Did it not occur to you that maybe I was just trying to help someone who asked a game set-up question in the thread? Your statement "and therefore a good target?" is a reach and it urks me that you would accuse me of having an ulterior motive for helping someone with a question.

In #36 Incog poses as the IC again, this time bringing a digression to the thread, possibly attempting to distract from the attention on Xtoxm or SSK. If so, it doesn’t work. There is something else very scummy about this post but I want to let it play out before drawing attention to it. If allowed to progress naturally, it will either confirm or disprove itself.

This is hilarious. I share with you some advice on how I think you might be able to draw out better information from future targets and you consider this an attempt to "distract attention from him"? You're better off making that accusation towards my subsequent post in Post 44 where people actually began unvoting from SSK and directing attention elsewhere. Oh but that would probably be a much more difficult accusation for you to make considering the fact that you agreed with me and subsequently unvoted. Ah, the irony.

In #44 Incog clearly defends SSK. It would have been entirely possible for him to question the wagon without that defense but he posts it anyway. In fact, the defense takes up the majority of the post and the attack seems like more of a deflection of suspicion. It is very vague.

Actually it wouldn't have been possible for me to question the wagon without mentioning my portion about his vote being a random one and my thoughts about random voting in general. Undoubtedly if I just mentioned that "a bit too much is being placed on the random voting phase", people would have followed up with the question: "Do you really think that MafiaSSK's vote and reason for voting was random?". My intent was to include my own feelings about SSK's first vote while questioning the wagon. Also, didn't you agree with me wholeheartedly in your subsequent post? Why have your feelings suddenly changed about that post?

[*]

Chron, this is a strange statement especially since I wouldn't even consider myself to be an "experienced player". I've only been on the site for a month and have only completed one Newbie game while this current game is my first mini-game ever.

This is Incog’s defense to the “voice of authority” accusation (which came in #49). I thought the accusation was well thought out even if it was a bit of a stretch. The defense, however, makes me wonder about Incog. It amounts to

I am not a duck, therefore I could not have been pretending to be a duck

and is left to stand unsupported.

Way to cut off the rest of my post. Actually my post read more like this:

Chron, this is a strange statement especially since I wouldn't even consider myself to be an "experienced player". I've only been on the site for a month and have only completed one Newbie game while this current game is my first mini-game ever. And since you've made the statement "this will come back to bite him when the inevitable rash of replacements occur" while you've also implied that my supposed "voice of authority" is a scum tactic, I'm guessing you've already come to the solid conclusion that I'm scum.

in response to a comment made by ChronX which looked like this:

Incognito seems to be setting himself up as the town's voice of authority, by answering game setup questions and making lengthy statements about game theory and such. This is often a scum tactic adopted by experienced players in a game with apparent newbs; you establish yourself as the wise man and can direct votes and thought processes later. Fortunately, this will come back to bite him when the inevitable rash of replacements occur and more vets filter into the blend.

First he misrepresented me by labeling me as an "experienced player" and next he makes a statement that seems like a solid conclusion about my alignment. I wasn't trying to state "I am not a duck, therefore I could not have been pretending to be a duck"; instead I was pointing out the flaws in his argument that he was using to classify me as "scum". Don't you think that an argument with flaws probably shouldn't be strong enough to come to a negative conclusion about someone's alignment? I'm really surprised that you believe my response to ChronX was more scummy than his statement "Fortunately, this will come back to bite him when the inevitable rash of replacements occur and more vets filter in the blend".

What gets me here is, why not post those players’ names the first time he suspected the wagon? Why deepen it once he comes under attack? Neither player had done anything else “scummy” in the interim. And why lump the two players together? This is another fence-sitting post, looks like he’s accusing both to see which attack gets support. The accusation regarding Apyadg was clearly not valid, a fact that Apyadg points out two posts later (in #60).

Reread Ho1den's Post 51. In that post he has more of an issue with me accepting SSK's transition from thinking someone's suspicious to jumping on a bandwagon and lying about it. He then proceeded to place a vote on me. My response post mentions ChronX and Apyadg because they both had chosen to place serious votes on MafiaSSK

before

SSK even made the transition that Ho1den had mentioned in his post. Later on in your very next post you yourself even admitted that you too had "jumped on the wagon even before MafiaSSK admitted to lying". If my post was truly a fence-sitting post, don't you think I should have, as you call it, "lumped you" in there as well right along with Apyadg and ChronX? Guess what: I didn't because you had classified your vote as a pressure vote as opposed to a serious one and I certainly didn't want to misrepresent you. But right now it seems like you have no issue misrepresenting me.

[*]But ChronX has posted a weaker defense in #59 and Incognito comes back in #62 to argue with him; ChronX’s #64 and Incog’s #68 continue this spat. Neither player makes very good points. My gut says that this exchange feels contrived, but I can’t back that up with facts. Suffice to say, Incog never challenges the stronger of the two defenses. This choice of arguments infers that he has identified ChronX as the scummier of the twins from #58.

If I truly found ChronX scummier, I would have voted for him. My posts following Apyadg's reply and ChronX's reply were made for me to both clarify what I stated in Post 58 and to determine if ChronX truly didn't understand what I was getting at or if he was deliberately trying to misrepresent me. Eventually he fell silent and mentioned that he would be away for about a week, so unfortunately I wasn't able to get a good determination of what he was attempting to do and now he's been replaced. I'll wait for Claus's interpretation of the thread to come to this kind of conclusion.

[*]Except charter takes Incog’s bait in #69, attacking Apyadg. Two posts later, in #71, Incog follows and cheerleads charter, voting Apyadg. So we have the

reality

in which Incog quietly initiates suspicion on Apyadg (the n00b) but the

illusion

that charter lead the attack, both factors set up by Incog’s posts. Also with his vote, Incog suggests that it is Apyadg (not ChronX) whom he finds the scummiest of those original twins. He never returns to the ChronX argument, or to suspecting him at all.

OMG another hilarious statement! Now you mention that charter has "taken my bait". Hmmm... Wasn't charter's vote on Apyadg the reason you labeled him as definitive town in your Post 98? It's really funny how you're becoming tangled in your own lies.

[*]In #88, Incog is on defense. He deflects suspicion back on Apyadg, reiterating his use of the word “bad” to vaguely say “scummy.” My main problem with this is that, in context, Apyadg’s meaning was clear. Incog has heavily decried me questioning SSK’s grammar, yet does the same thing here without the depth of my “failed premise”. Also Incog chronically commits the same sin he accuses Apyadg of, using phrases like “a little odd” and “a bit odd.” Even in context, these statements of his are less clear than Apyadg’s and could actually be construed as intentionally placing suspicion without coming out and saying it.

In order to say that I was on the defense at that point, I guess you'd have to assume that Justin Playfair's questions were attacks. But if I remember correctly, Justin Playfair himself mentioned that he wasn't attacking me, and I personally never felt that Justin Playfair was attacking me either. Where did I use the phrase "a little odd" or "a bit odd" in that post? I just used Ctrl + F to find the word "odd" on Page 4, and I only found two instances of the word. One in your Post 84 in which you're quoting Northjayhawk and one in your Post 86 where you're quoting Justin Playfair. Seriously, why the hell are you trying to misrepresent me?

[*]By the time Incog posts #109, DS has come out of lurking to quick-vote Apyadg, making the wagon seem scummier. Incog doesn’t address Apyadg’s defenses or his own vote, just questions DS and promises to post content “later today” (Tuesday, December 11).

And so you find me scummier than Disciple Slayer for making Post 109 than his Post 89 in which he pops up out of nowhere to place a vote on Apyadg? I think you've been awfully accommodating towards Disciple Slayer this whole game. Apyadg was already being questioned by Ho1den, and I became suspicious of Disciple Slayer for placing a vote on Apyadg the way he did. Considering Disciple Slayer's action, I was actually beginning to form a different opinion about Apyadg but I was still waiting for the scum-hunting that he promised before removing my vote. He has yet to provide us with that scum-hunting.

[*]On Decenmber 13, Incog finally posts content in #129, but only to address a direct question. His read on charter is on the fence, leaning town, which makes sense considering the public reads on charter and Incog’s recent teaming up with him. His one accusation is a sly defense of himself, as he is only referring to charter’s attack on him; he twists the words of that attack, making it seem as if charter posted a scummy read regarding SSK, when, in reality, charter never referenced SSK’s alignment; and he accuses charter of making an “inaccurate statement” that IMO (and others’) was accurate. Incog is setting up a way to distance himself from others who are voting Apyadg.

Uhm, seriously, wtf? Where did I mention that my read on charter is on the fence, leaning town? Please everyone have a look for yourself and tell me where I mentioned that I'm leaning town on charter: Post 129.

I don't even feel the need to continue this long post replying to your PBPA of me when you clearly haven't even analyzed my posts well enough to be considered an analysis. When I first read it, I remember thinking: Wow, I really said all that? After reading that shit where you've completely misconstrued everything I said and after I've finished reading all of your other posts in the thread, I think it's pretty easy for me to switch my vote from Apyadg to you. And no, this is not an OMGUS vote.

Unvote

Vote: Ythill

I still have an

FoS on Apyadg

because I'd like to see the scum-hunting he promised and now an

FoS on Disciple Slayer

for reasons that I've mentioned previously.

Oh and hey, Claus and kuribo! It's nice to know we now have the full complement of players. =)

[Incognito]

Before I even reply to your claim, I'm going to suggest that if someone else has the role of Vigilante, now would be a good time to counterclaim Ythill since there's most likely only one Vig per mini-game. I'll just mention that I'm not completely buying your claim since I could think of a number of legitimate reasons for mafia to claim such a role at this stage of the game, especially since you're threatening to vig-kill me on Night 1. I really don't see how you've already come to this solid conclusion that I'm scum, and you place me into a weird position since I feel I too am forced to claim just so you won't vig-kill me tonight if either one of us doesn't end up getting lynched today.

[Incognito]

I'd be happy to go along with that...if you die and your mafia, then Ythill is twlling the truth, if your town, we can lynch Ythill.

Xtoxm, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. Are you suggesting that I should be the person lynched today to have my alignment revealed by the mod? And that if my alignment is revealed as town, that automatically proves that Ythill is lying about his role and that he should be lynched on Day 2? Have you considered that maybe Ythill isn't lying while at the same time I'm aligned on the side of the town?

[Incognito]

(4) I am not lynched #3. Scum have excellent strategy, they don’t NK at all. My claim seems false and I am pretty much guaranteed to be lynched D2. But, again, I don’t think my death is the worst thing that could happen to town. Whether D1 or D2, it will reveal my alignment and role which will uncork a mountain of data on other players. Not to mention that this option costs scum a NK.

This outcome could also happen if I am targeted by scum but doc protected. Because it could be the most favorable to scum of the four, I am going to ask that (if we have a doc) I not be protected from N1 NK whether you believe me or not; there are far better targets for protection anyway.

Actually, Justin, you've already mentioned some information about the fourth scenario that I agree with but you're also missing something else. Ythill considers the fourth scenario to be "excellent strategy" because he says the scum will not NK at all and make his claim seem false. Ythill has already made it quite clear that he intends to target me for his Vig-kill, and he's also made it even more clear that

he considers me scum

. At the start of Day 2, the mod will reveal all of the deaths that happened during the night and the alignment of the killed person. Suppose Ythill is telling the truth and he is the One-Shot Vigilante who decides to kill me, and the scum follow his "excellent strategy" and decide to no-kill on Night 1: Imagine how the next day would read if you suppose I'm scum. The mod would reveal my alignment (in this case we're supposing I'm scum), mention that I was killed, and no other death would occur. Ythill's role would be confirmed since it would be pretty evident that my death would have been a result of his Vigilantism.

In order for Ythill's fourth scenario to be considered "excellent strategy" as he called it, one would absolutely HAVE to assume that I'm a townie. Why? Because think about how the next day would read in that case: Incognito (Townie) was killed during Night 1. No other kill would be revealed during the night because Ythill mentioned it would be "excellent strategy" for the scum to not kill anyone. It would then and ONLY THEN be unclear if the town should believe Ythill's claim because you all would be questioning if my death really was a result of Ythill's "One-Shot Vigilantism" and not the result of a Mafia kill. It would also be unclear if the doctor protected the right person or anything along those lines. Justin, I think you are correct in stating that it almost seems as though Ythill is "laying down the carpet" for his day 2 defense, and I think Ythill has just slipped up.

My vote will remain on Ythill.

[Incognito]

Cross-posted a bit...

it would be pretty evident that my death would have been a result of his Vigilantism.

Or of elaborate bussing. Barring that, you make a good point that I hadn't considered. In hindsight, #4 is not "excellent strategy" unless I am wrong about you. None of that changes my read on you or the fact that my claim is confirmable.

Also, I forgot my vote confirm thingy in the last post.

Ythill's vig targets: Incog (vote), Shteven (FoS).

ROFL! So if we assume I'm scum, the scum would kill me through this elaborate bussing to help confirm that you are in fact the one-shot vigilante?

Some people should learn when to wave the white flag.

[Incognito]

Incognito,

Two things, though I'm not sure the first is still relevant after Ythill's post 229. And Ythill, I'm somewhat flummoxed by what you've posted there.

The first would be that Ythill's fourth strategy ONLY works if his eventual victim is town. Otherwise it doesn't work at all. I took that as a given, but after Ythill's response I guess it wasn't to him, which is really very strange. I mean, if the eventual victim is scum then scum have no reason at all for not killing someone. Conversely, if the victim is scum Ythill comes up blameless on a no-kill by mafia regardless.

Justin, you are absolutely correct. Ythill's 4th strategy ONLY works if the victim is Town. See the problem that Ythill ran into is he's part of that informed minority that we call the mafia. He got a little ahead of himself suggesting that the mafia's "excellent strategy" would be to no kill because he knows as well as I do that I am an innocent and if I were killed, I would show up as an innocent. So essentially, he knows what the results of tomorrow's night kill would be if his fourth strategy were enacted, and basically he was, as you said, "laying down the carpet" for his Day 2 defense that he knew he would have to make once I appeared as Town. That's what sometimes happens to a player when he/she knows a little TOO much information.

And what a beautiful strategy it would have been too. I mean, he basically outlined everything the way it would have happened if we fell into his trap to believe he's really the Vigilante. He would have used his one-shot during Night 1 (because conveniently he claims he's a night-kill one-shot Vig). He would have defended himself saying stuff like "Wow, those members of the mafia sure were smart to use "excellent strategy number 4"". Then he would have been this "Vanilla Townie" from then on, unable to ever shoot another person again. In reality he would be this member of the Mafia hiding among us guiding the town to even more mislynches. It's really quite nice, isn't it?

Incognito,

The second thing. I think Ythill in post 229 is suggesting that the elaborate bussing would be his killing of you. I looked all over the Wiki to see if mafia could night kill their team mates, but I couldn't find the answer.

There are two things Ythill said with absolute certainty in Post 218.

1) He is the One-Shot Night-Kill Vigilante.

2) I am scum.

His "elaborate bussing" he was referring to was where he realized "Oh hey wait a minute... if I, Ythill, am lying to the town and claiming with absolute certainty that Incognito is scum, then shit, Incognito is right. I forgot that I also have to pretend that Incognito also shows up as scum at the beginning of Day 2, and I have to make the town realize that for some reason, the mafia elaborately bussed Incognito by night-killing him to help me out with my role of being the One-Shot Night-Killing Vigilante!" Which of course makes no sense at all. Justin, he's backtracking. It's plain and simple. Ythill is scum.

[Incognito]

I am perplexed. I have no idea what to do any more. Mass RC, anyone?

Heh. Spoken like Ythill's scum buddy.

Seriously, are you guys even reading what just happened? Ythill is scum.

Read Post 218's "excellent strategy".

Read Justin Playfair's response: Post 221 and read my response: Post 227.

Read Ythill's backtracking: Post 229 and my response to his backtracking: Post 230

Justin Playfair's points: Post 231

My response as well: Post 232

This really shouldn't be that difficult.

Confirm vote: Ythill

[Incognito]

Ythill, did you really only realize that when Incognito brought it up, as seems to be indicated in post 229? Because that really seems to indicate that you know he's innocent, or if Incognito is not your eventual target that you suspect you'll be killing town. I mean, you really hadn't considered that?

I didn't think it through. When typing my possible outcomes, it occured to me that mafia could screw me by not killing. I didn't consider my target's alignment in that situation at all. Very bad oversight on my part, I know.

Bullshit. You've already said with great certainty that I'm scum. For you to not consider your target's alignment (in this case Incognito the scum) when you suggested the "excellent strategy number 4" just doesn't seem to ring true to me. What

does

ring true to me is that you're scum and when you were writing up your point about "excellent strategy number 4", you were thinking about it with the knowledge that Incognito will appear as Town when the mod reveals his alignment.

First point: does the slip up Incog hypothesises seem like a realistic mistake? Meaning, if I am forward-thinking enough to lay out this elaborate "carpet," does it follow that I am short-sighted enough to miss such an obvious hole in the plan?

Of course it's a realistic mistake. It just happened.

Second point: the "doc protected" plan seems much more viable if I am scum, so what's the point of me asking the doc not to protect me? In Incog's theory, wouldn't that be entirely counter-productive? As scum, I should have asked for doc protection.

Hmm... A little "Wine In Front of Me" perhaps? You're forcing us to think that if Ythill is scum, then he should have also asked for the doc's protection. Since he didn't, he must not be scum. Not asking for the doctor's protection of course

seems

like a very generous town action when in this case it's the action of the scum attempting to fool the Town.

Final point. Look at Incog's actions here and ask yourself why he selected the course he did. He has several options. He could go back and try a real defense against my PBPA, clearing himself enough to put Shteven back in my sights. He could try to find "the real scum" and direct my kill towards them. Or he can look for a mistake in my post and continue to argue desperately to lynch me. Which of these are the most realistic approaches for town? For scum?

I've already tried to respond to what I call, your Post By Post Distortion and upon doing so, I noticed so many points that were complete misrepresentations of things that I mentioned in the thread that I didn't even feel the need to complete the response. In fact, I urge everyone to sit down and read his so-called PBPA of me. Take the time to go to each and every post that he cites (since he didn't do anyone the favor and link each one), read what he says, read the actual post that I made in which he's referring to, and determine for yourself if his PBPA is actually valid. I've already found the real scum, Ythill. One of them happens to be you.

The obvious move here for any townie is to steer clear of a D1 lynch on me, waiting for my confirmation and lynching me D2 if it does not come. In the case of a townie who is my declared target, the obvious move is to stall the lynch, try and clear himself, and work hard to determine if my #2 suspect is actually scummy.

And this would be assuming I have actually bought your claim of being the One-Shot Night-Kill Vigilante, in which case I haven't. Think about it like this: Let's assume that you really are this One-Shot Night-Kill Vigilante that you claim to be. Would it really make sense from your perspective as a member of the town, who's duty and obligation is to the town, to form this solid conclusion about another player after creating a PBPA and reading my response to that PBPA to come forward and announce to everyone that you're the One-Shot Night-Kill Vig whose primary target is Incognito and that you absolutely

know

I an scum? And you did all this when the possibility of you being lynched was still very slim since you only had 3 votes on you. If you were actually this townie, you would have taken a step back and thought for a second: Wait, what if Incognito isn't scum and here I am announcing to everyone that I will kill him at night? The scum wouldn't even bother Night Killing you since they would know you're targeting a townie and you'll end up being Vanilla once you finish killing me. The scum also wouldn't even bother Night Killing me since they would also know I'm a townie and that you're gonna take care of me by killing me. They would just let you proceed with your killing and target a completely different target from the list of other potential victims that they have.

But now let's assume that you're Mafia. What would you have to gain by claiming this role? First off, in a mini-game there's no guarantee that we even have a Vigilante. So technically you could rest assured that there probably won't be a counterclaim since there's a good chance the role doesn't exist. And even if a counterclaim did come forward, you could mention "Oh but you must be day-kill. Mine is night-kill so no worries, I'm still telling the truth". Secondly, if I actually bought your claim and ended up not getting lynched today, you could keep your target that you will now be keeping at the bottom of each of your posts on me, realizing that "Hey, Incognito is a Townie. He's buying my claim and in an effort to prevent his own death which would be a loss to the Town, he'll claim his role before Night 1 rolls around." If I have a power role, then BINGO you just scored big by claiming to be the Vig. If I don't have a power role, then you and your mafia buddies could turn your attention on someone else from the town who may have a power role. Thirdly, you've laid out the rest of the beauty behind the claim ahead of you - you would from then on appear to everyone as this Vanilla Townie since you "used up" your one shot and you would be able to guide the town to mislynches.

Insead, Incog analyzes my post and finds a mistake that he immediately (and repeatedly) insists leads to no other conclusion except Ythill=scum + Incog=town even though there is at least one other explanation. He pushes this ruthlessly (look at his recent post count compared to a couple days ago) to try and get town to hang me. Why the rush?

I'm in no rush. I have no problem allowing the day to progress forward. My only fear is that you will somehow talk your way out of this one (like you're attempting to do right now) to hopefully lead the town to a mislynch on Day 1. You're also acting like that one mistake (which is a pretty horrific mistake considering how certain you are of me being scum) was the only reason I concluded that you are probably scum. Your PBPA of me was so bad and such a drastic misrepresentation of me that it was easy for me to come to the conclusion that you're scum. Your actions this whole day have also helped me to come to this conclusion (constantly reaffirming to everyone that you're a townie, mentioning that only the towniest of the town will realize Incognito's mistake in his post, flat-out lying about different points within the thread). The mistake you made was just a little icing on the cake.

Ask yourself the same questions about most of his posts: his hint that he has a power-role, his request for counter claims, his fence-riding habits, his "case" against apyadg, his shifty defense to my PBPA, etc, etc, etc. I am very comfortable letting you all form your own answers to these questions.

Where did I hint that I have a power role? And what's so bad about my counterclaim request? If someone counterclaims you, we'd

know

that at least one of you is lying, and we'd eventually be pretty much guaranteed to out one scum. With regard to Apyadg, my analysis of him wasn't allowed to continue since he never appeared in the thread again to provide us with that promised scum-hunting.

Also, take a look at Justin. I think he's pretty clearly a vanilla townie and I have been his top suspect since very early in the game. Yet he is giving my claim the benefit of the doubt. Why? Why wouldn't Incog do the same?

Seriously, what kind of a townie attempts to figure out the role of another townie? Oh, I know which kind: the kind who's actually scum. And I'm not giving you the benefit of the doubt because as I mentioned before, since you were so certain that I am scum it strikes me as unbelievable that you would make a mistake that badly when laying out your "excellent strategy" number 4.

[Incognito]

Incognito,

I don’t like anything about Ythill’s claim. At best it seems a claim designed to benefit the claimant at the expense of the town’s greater interests, and at worst it seems absolutely scummy. But for town as a whole the possible benefits of leaving Ythill unlynched going into tonight outweigh the possible risks. If I were you, staring down the barrel of his gun, I am not at all sure I wouldn’t be reacting with the vehemence you’re showing. But lynching Ythill today would not be the best play for the town, and you have to put the town in front of yourself. Easy for me to say, since it’s not me we’re talking about getting killed by him? Yeah. Sorry about that. And I think the best thing you could do now wouldn’t be to either attack or answer Ythill, but to spend your time and energy hunting for scum among those players not named Ythill. It’s the very best thing you could do for town, and my guess is it is also the way to have the best chance of being alive in the morning.

Now, unless something dramatically new comes up involving this claim I am going to try to do some hunting. Because even if Ythill is scum, he’s not here all by himself.

You bring up good points, Justin. I will not remove my vote just yet because I still have major issues with everything about the claim but as of right now, my FoSes were and still are currently on Apyadg and Disciple Slayer. Apyadg has remained inactive despite the fact that I've seen him online a number of times browsing this very forum (Little Italy) but still not contributing anything. And he continues to contribute to the Newbie game that he's in, but he is remaining non-contributory to this game despite his promise to scum hunt.

Mod:

Can you please prod Apyadg?

[Incognito]

I don't see how Ythill gets any personal gain form this claim. Personally I think it's very convincing. I'll be surprised if he's scum now.

Xtoxm, why do you think Ythill's claim only makes sense as Ythill-town?

[Incognito]

I can't help but make one final point about the Ythill role claim especially since Xtoxm has mentioned that he can only see it making sense from a town perspective. I think the role claim makes 0% sense from a townie perspective and contrary to Xtoxm, I would be really surprised if Ythill comes up as town. And my reasoning for this will be completely free of the analysis I've presented previously about the mistake he made in "excellent strategy" 4. Here's why:

First, let's look at the post that Ythill made after I responded to his PBPA of me. He said three pretty solid things after wrapping the whole thing up:

1) He said my Post 215 was the scummiest post of the entire game, and it confirms his read on me.

2) He said the towniest of the town should be able to see my post 215 for what it is and come to conclusions about it.

3) He claimed his role to be that of the One-Shot Night-Killing Vigilante.

Read his post and the above conclusions. Doesn't this seem like a huge appeal to emotion? Further, if you're a townie reading his post, does it not urk you that he was able to make all three of these points in one post after completing a single PBPA on a person and reading that person's response? Especially considering that it's inconsistent with his playstyle so far? I know for a fact that if he had made that post against anyone else in the game even if I was slightly leaning scum on said person, I personally would have been extremely urked by it.

So far, Ythill has basically seemed to attack two main people: Justin Playfair and Northjayhawk/Shteven. His playstyle has read as follows so far:

1) Attack.
2) Battle of words for a bit.
3) Resolution.

Compare this to what he did when he chose me as his target:

1) Attack.
2) Resolution.

Where was his usual battle of words? Why did he not feel the need to include this against me?

I could see a townie doing this if said townie had an investigative role and that townie investigated a person and confirmed his/her investigation to be guilty. But a One-Shot Vigilante is far from an investigative role. How could he have come to such a solid conclusion about me? Does Ythill really have these amazing powers of perception and ability that he's able to come to the solid conclusions that MafiaSSK is the VI, Justin Playfair is a Vanilla Townie, and Incognito is scum? It just doesn't make sense.

Further, ask yourself this question: How does what Ythill mentioned in his post jive with his final actions? Surely someone who has come to the conclusion that the "towniest of the town" will see my post for what it is wouldn't also feel the need to claim his role at the end of his post that came after reacting to my response to his PBPA. If he really had this role, wouldn't it make even better sense to try to further build his case against me, gain support from the town, and have me lynched to in effect save his night-killing ability for a future night?

I stick by my conclusion that Ythill is scum, and I'm willing to help try to find the rest of the scum, but I just want you all to seriously consider this no matter what happens from here on out.

[Incognito]

EBWOP: That should be "jibe" and not "jive". Sorry about that.

[Incognito]

Excellent posts both of you, and I completely agree. I too thought about Disciple Slayer's vote against Apyadg as an early form of distancing especially considering the rapidity with which he removed it. I've also mentioned previously how I think Ythill has been awfully accommodating of DS here:

And so you find me scummier than Disciple Slayer for making Post 109 than his Post 89 in which he pops up out of nowhere to place a vote on Apyadg? I think you've been awfully accommodating towards Disciple Slayer this whole game. Apyadg was already being questioned by Ho1den, and I became suspicious of Disciple Slayer for placing a vote on Apyadg the way he did. Considering Disciple Slayer's action, I was actually beginning to form a different opinion about Apyadg but I was still waiting for the scum-hunting that he promised before removing my vote. He has yet to provide us with that scum-hunting.

and since I have such a low impression of Ythill already, I wouldn't be surprised by that scum grouping. Ythill's recent removal of his FoS on Shteven and switch to DS could also be some form of distancing. Basically, he could use another vote so I would like to

Unvote; Vote: Disciple Slayer

Justin, I wouldn't mind reading the rest of your analysis on DS.

[Incognito]

I would like to read the first part of your DS case, Justin.

He already provided it~

[Incognito]

Justin, I don't think Disciple Slayer's plan clears Ythill or DS at all, and I think it works quite well as bussing an unsalvageable buddy. You're right though; it would have been dependent on whether or not there really is a Doc and Cop and whether or not said Doc/Cop would be willing to go along with the strategy and reveal the information learned at the start of the next day. If the strategy actually went through though and Ythill really did appear as guilty, I could see it as an attempt for DS to kill two birds with one stone: he would come away looking fairly innocent for suggesting the strategy that lead the town to find one scum, and it would pave the way for the scum to rid the town of some power roles.

[Incognito]

SSK, if you're back for good now, you might wanna tell the mod. I saw him place a post in the Replacements thread.

[Incognito]

Incognito

He started average, and was on my neutral list until pressure started to fall on him in these last pages. I don't like the way that he reacted to the pressure on him... feels like the last game we played together, where he was scum afterall. And he seems to quickly point to anyone not himself when the heat gets off him.

This seems very similar to post 58, when he overreacts to a small accusation on him. And I have seen it as well in another game we played together.

Claus, I don't think your meta-analysis of me is entirely fair and certainly don't think it should be used to place me on your so-called "Naughty List". Remember that the game you and me played together in which I was scum was a game where I was replacing a player who was very obviously scum to just about every player in the game. I posted about 5 or 6 posts and then self-hammered. Further, that game is still ongoing so I don’t think it should be discussed here.

Also, why didn’t you mention anything about Ythill’s role-claim? Do you think that even with his role-claim at L-4, his mistake in “excellent strategy number 4”, and the points I bring up with respect to why his role-claim makes no sense that he still belongs on your “Nice List”? You even listed him as “SK possibility”. That’s a nice thing?

Also I guess it’s worthy to note that you actually placed me on your neutral list early in the game while your predecessor seemed to come to the conclusion that I was definitely scum. What do you think of your predecessor’s arguments against me? How about his arguments against MafiaSSK?

I feel like Justin had questions for me somewhere so I'll get to those when I'm more awake tomorrow morning or afternoon.

[Incognito]

Okay, I have some time now to answer these questions.

Incognito, I want to ask you a couple questions. If given your preference, would you still prefer a day one lynch of Ythill? And how would finding two bodies in the morning impact your suspicions of him?

No, I don't think we should lynch Ythill today. Even though I feel that the possibility of him being aligned on the side of the town seems slim to none, I'd rather not have the guy lynched today. If he really is the Vig I would have liked it if he would have kept his role to himself and saved his ability for another night when he may have been more sure of his read against another player, but we can't cry over spilled milk.

With regard to your second question, I'm thinking that finding two bodies the next day would definitely at least ease my suspicions of him a bit, although my suspicions probably wouldn't matter anymore since he's already made it clear that I would be his target. As you mentioned previously though, it wouldn't completely clear him as a definite Vig since the very small possibility of him being the Serial Killer could still hold true. I think the SK possibility is extremely small though since following Night 1, he would have to essentially no-kill every single night to maintain our trust while keeping himself alive all the way to the end of the game.

Non-Ythill stuff: I'd still like to see a response from Disciple Slayer with respect to the issues we've all raised against him, and I'm still distinctly unimpressed with Apyadg's contribution to the game. I should mention that he still continues to view this very forum (Little Italy) but is still unwilling to contribute to our game. I'm not sure if screenshots are allowed but they're probably unnecessary; you could look at his posting history to see that he's quite active in his Newbie game. He's not lurking as obviously as Disciple Slayer was earlier on but he

is

still lurking nevertheless.

[Incognito]

Ythill:

I'm letting you know that I still have a hard time believing your claim but I do have a few questions for you. These questions assume that you really are the Vig. After reading all of the reactions generated after your claim, do you still believe claiming was the right thing to do? You've now removed your vote and FoS from underneath all of your posts, but where do you currently stand with your issues against me? Also, you've indicated that you too are suspicious of Disciple Slayer, and you would vote against him but you're waiting for his response. What do you think of both me and Shteven voting against Disciple Slayer as of current? You were highly suspicious of both me and Shteven, so why have you not questioned the wagon formed on DS?

[Incognito]

You started cool (loved your "hate pressure votes" comment), then eventually settled on Apydog. Then when you come under fire by Yth, you set all your cannons on him - eventually to the point of forgetting your previous attacks on Apy.

Eh? Firstly, Apyadg has been inactive for quite some time now. Does it really make much sense for me to keep drilling the same issues I've had with him over and over again when the guy's not even here to provide input? Secondly, I didn't forget my previous attacks on Apy. He's been one of my FoS's ever since I changed my vote from Apy to Ythill. I've also been mentioning comments as of recent about his lurking as he continues to look into this forum and continues to remain active in his newbie game but refuses to provide content here.

Same thing with my attack - you question me in an agressive manner because I put you in my suspect list. So I'm partners with Ythill and DS? Where is Apy in your suspicion scale now?

Well let's see. I didn't vote against you or place an FoS on you or anything along those lines so no, I'm not suggesting that you are partners with Ythill and DS. I'm really surprised that you would even think that; is it wrong for me to question your analysis of myself and the other players of the game? Again, I recommend you look back at my recent posts to see where I stand with Apyadg; he still remains as my FoS and I would still like to see the scum-hunting that he promised.

What do you think of your predecessor’s arguments against me? How about his arguments against MafiaSSK?

I can't answer for my predecessors arguments. Do you really want me to do it, or are you just entering OMGUS territory?

Haha, Claus, you crack me up. I've also mentioned previously that I would question you when you were all caught up with your read since your predecessor had a number of issues with me. See below:

If I truly found ChronX scummier, I would have voted for him. My posts following Apyadg's reply and ChronX's reply were made for me to both clarify what I stated in Post 58 and to determine if ChronX truly didn't understand what I was getting at or if he was deliberately trying to misrepresent me. Eventually he fell silent and mentioned that he would be away for about a week, so unfortunately I wasn't able to get a good determination of what he was attempting to do and now he's been replaced. I'll wait for Claus's interpretation of the thread to come to this kind of conclusion.

So in response to your question, yes, I really would like for you to at least attempt to answer those questions. Your reading of me from the pre-Ythill PBPA part of the game differs fairly drastically from your predecessor's reading of me from that same point of the game so I think my questions for you are pretty crucial.

@Ythill:

Thanks for answering those questions. I've already attempted to respond to your PBPA of me and found myself having a hard time doing so. All I can really say is this: I agree that my sig:noise ratio was fairly high during the period in which you analyzed. However, I think you should seriously consider the amount of inactivity that existed at that time period. I remember you mentioning something about how we should watch our sig:noise ratio out of respect for the replacements and you went further to state that you like the smaller, intimate setting provided as it allows for good information gathering. I can't say that I completely agree with you on your second point. I'm not a fan of allowing players the chance to look at things retrospectively and responding to issues from that point; I think more information can be gathered when all the players in the game are active and providing content during the same time period.

I also don't know how to respond to your fence-sitting comments since I don't agree with your read on me. I can't say that my issues with Apyadg were completely my own since charter was the first to place a vote on him. I could say though that my issues with Disciple Slayer and you were self-motivated. Disciple Slayer wasn't being scrutinized by anyone when I first mentioned my issues with him, and my issues with you were different from Shteven's and kuribo's issues. If you really are the Vig and still feel like I haven't swayed your opinion of me, then unfortunately I guess you'll just have to shoot me tonight to find out my alignment. If it comes down to that, I'm hoping that enough information has been provided from me and people's reactions towards me to at least lead the town in a positive direction.

[Incognito]

Sorry, I keep getting that CPU quota message when I hit submit but here's my response to your questions, Ythill:

@ Incog: Realizing this AM that my rambling argument was unfair (in the same way as my PBPA) without a few summary questions for you to respond to. So...

Can you explain how unique and/or self-motivated cases against me and DS would clear you of earlier allegations of fence-sitting and following?

Well earlier in your PBPA, one of the issues that you had with me involved my "lumping up" of both ChronX and Apyadg into my post where I mentioned how they both placed serious votes on MafiaSSK before he conceded to lying. You theorized that my reason for doing this was so that I could see which bandwagon would gain strength so that I could follow that bandwagon with a vote. In response to your PBPA I mentioned that if I was truly lumping individuals up to eventually jump on the wagon that gained strength, I would have also lumped your name in there along with Apyadg and ChronX since technically you also joined the SSK wagon before he admitted to lying. I mentioned that I didn't include your name in that post though because you had classified your vote on MafiaSSK as a pressure vote instead of a serious one. My self-motivated cases against you and DS would also help clear your allegations.

Why did you claim that nobody else was scrutinizing DS when it was untrue? Why did you say that your issues against DS were self-motivated when none of them were unique?

I was going from memory when I made my previous post, and I could have sworn that I was the first person to mention problems with DS's posts. Ho1den did make a comment before me though so you're right in saying it was untrue. I was probably thinking of the FoS I placed on him when I replied to you.

[Incognito]

In short: your defense here does not actually address your alignment but, instead, attempts to discredit my theory by suggesting false “town-only” motivations for a course of action that would benefit either alignment. Comments?

This is true. However, the only way I can completely prove my own alignment is by showing you my role pm. =)

My self-motivated cases against you and DS would also help clear your allegations.

The reason I claim that they do not is that they were made from a desperate position rather than an allegedly conniving position. Do you see the difference here?

I fail to see how my case against Disciple Slayer was made from a desperate position. I had touched on at least part of my issues with DS well before you even suggested that you would be working on a PBPA of me. My first mentioning of DS was back on December the 11th and then again on the 13th while your first mentioning of a PBPA on me happened on the 27th. My case against you was certainly more of a desperate situation since you were doing to me the exact opposite of what you had done to SSK earlier; you were threatening to eliminate me after creating what I saw as a false PBPA while SSK was just receiving pressure.

I was going from memory when I made my previous post, and I could have sworn that I was the first person to mention problems with DS's posts. Ho1den did make a comment before me though so you're right in saying it was untrue.

Your candor here does not clear you altogether, but I do appreciate it. I believe that this equates to a concession on your part: the DS case was not unique and can therefore be dropped from your most recent defense. Would you explicitly agree?

Not explicitly but I could slightly agree at least. I refused to mention anything about DS before my post on the 11th because I was trying to give DS the benefit of the doubt - he would repeatedly enter the thread mentioning some real life issue that would keep him from the game, and I didn't want to accuse him of lurking or something of the sort since his reasons for being away seemed justified. Eventually he did it one too many times and when he

would

finally return, he would provide no evidence of reading the thread or any analysis whatsoever - he would just vote on the person who was feeling pressure atm.

Finally, do you have any comments regarding Apy’s return? I am willing to put our chat on hold if you would like to dedicate your entire focus to questioning him for a little while, as I believe such an interaction could potentially shed more light on his alignment and yours.

And YES! Finally something I wanted to bring up haha.

We have this:

Non-Ythill stuff: I'd still like to see a response from Disciple Slayer with respect to the issues we've all raised against him, and I'm still distinctly unimpressed with Apyadg's contribution to the game. I should mention that he still continues to view this very forum (Little Italy) but is still unwilling to contribute to our game. I'm not sure if screenshots are allowed but they're probably unnecessary; you could look at his posting history to see that he's quite active in his Newbie game. He's not lurking as obviously as Disciple Slayer was earlier on but he

is

still lurking nevertheless.

where I mention that it seems like Apyadg has been monitoring the thread but not contributing anything.

and this:

Just like to say I have also seen Apyadg doing as Incog said.

Microscope finding it's way on to me now...This should be interesting

where Xtoxm confirms what I was mentioning about Apyadg.

And now this from Apyadg himself:

My sincere apologies, I've been checking in on mafia regularly, but entirely forgot about this game, I know from other games how irritating it is to have someone not posting, it won't happen again, it's been added to my bookmarks.

Forgot about the game, eh?

Unvote; Vote: Apyadg

I'm comfortable with either a DS lynch or an Apyadg lynch for Day 1.

[Incognito]

I'll be responding to Claus over the weekend but is this game still alive? It looks like we're going to need replacements for Ho1den, charter, SSK, and now Disciple Slayer also since his sig says /out on all games.

[Incognito]

Pretty excited watching the Giants beat the Cowboys! But yeah, back to this haha.

So, questions:
A- Why is it

crucial

whether my opinions differs from Cronx or not? Despite we sharing the same role PM, we are different players, with different styles, and different ways to read other people. I never talked to Cronx either about this game. So please, tell me why this is

crucial

.

It's crucial because your predecessor came to a pretty solid conclusion that I'm scum. I just wanted to know your standpoint in relation to your predecessor's. You've mentioned in question B that you couldn't find this so I'll point this out to you below.

B- And where does Cronx points at you as one of the most scummy players? I couldn't find it. He attacked once at 49, then you two exchanged some jabs ("you are misrepresenting me! No, you are! No, you!"), then he replaced.

See below:

Incognito seems to be setting himself up as the town's voice of authority, by answering game setup questions and making lengthy statements about game theory and such.

This is often a scum tactic adopted by experienced players in a game with apparent newbs; you establish yourself as the wise man and can direct votes and thought processes later.

Fortunately, this will come back to bite him when the inevitable rash of replacements occur and more vets filter into the blend.

He states this is often a scum tactic used to direct votes and thought processes later and then says it will come back to bite me. This implies that his conclusion at that point was that I'm scum.

C- Do you have any comments on my reads on other players?

Yes, I've already mentioned that I disagree with your read on Ythill, I disagree with your read on MafiaSSK, and I'm not receiving the same vibes as you are on Justin Playfair either. Also I'd probably shift Xtoxm to "The Unlisted" if anything.

Mod:

We also need a replacement for Disciple Slayer. He seems to be the top suspect for a lot of people, but he's not around to respond which sucks and is leaving us at a standstill.

[Incognito]

So I guess we're basically just waiting on content from people like Apyadg, and the charter & Ho1den replacements then before agreeing on a lynch.

[Incognito]

This is sad really. We have the exact amount of active players we need to make a lynch with our 7 actives. I'm beginning to feel like we should either have a modkill or an abandonment. I don't see much progress being made in the replacements department and with the way this game has been going, it seems like this will all just be cyclical.

[Incognito]

AND THESE DAMN CPU QUOTA ERRORS AREN'T HELPING

ASDF

[Incognito]

lol another cross-post.

[Incognito]

Oh and P.S. I've been checking out Apy's newbie game just for the heck of it and it turns out he dipped out when he started receiving some pressure. He dipped out to the point of being replaced and by the looks of it, he was scum.

Coincidence? =]

[Incognito]

Oh and P.S. I've been checking out Apy's newbie game just for the heck of it and it turns out he dipped out when he started receiving some pressure. He dipped out to the point of being replaced and by the looks of it, he was scum.

Coincidence? =]

Newbie games can't be assumed to mean anything, since a player's playstyle will (hopefully) change over time.

Yeh but there is no time diff is there, the games are being played simultaneously

Yeah, kuribo, I would agree with you under other circumstances. However, given the fact that Apyadg's Newbie game was running at the exact same time as this Mini, his playstyle would remain relatively the same.

Also, he lied about forgetting about this game. That's reason enough for me to have him as today's lynch.

[Incognito]

He dipped out to the point of being replaced and by the looks of it, he was scum.

What do you mean by "by the looks of it?" How does his previous play as scum suggest his alignment in this game without having his previous play as town for comparison?

The game was just wrapping up when I made that post, so I was going by soupfly's comment which stated that the town had won the game. Now that the game has officially ended, it's a certainty that he was scum in that game. You can see the game for yourself: Newbie 531. More specifically I would pay attention to the area of the game just before Apyadg goes AWOL and gets replaced.

I know that it's not completely solid evidence because like you said, we have no comparison to how he might have played as town if he was under a high pressure situation that questioned his alignment, but I just wanted to present some evidence that would at least suggest that Apy could have been doing the same thing within our game.

Also, he lied about forgetting about this game.

What evidence supports this?

I've gone through my evidence previously a few posts back in response to you but just to reiterate, both Xtoxm and I confirmed that we had each seen Apyadg browsing this forum (Little Italy specifically) on a number of occasions. Obviously he could have been observing other ongoing games within this same forum but I'd find it hard to believe that our game (which was still fairly active at the time and was therefore near the top of the forum when I first mentioned this information) would go completely unnoticed from his eyesight. The first thing he mentioned when he did finally post here again was something like: sorry guys, I forgot about this game.

Lynch all liars?

[Incognito]

You guys do realize that he's not coming back right?

[Incognito]

His sig says /out for all games and now he goes by the moniker "Captain Bandwagon".

[Incognito]

Maybe he got bored.

[Incognito]

Oh, it's not like he went around telling people that he made this new account. He kinda got found out by JDodge or someone else. I read it somewhere in the forums.

[Incognito]

Oh, it's not like he went around telling people that he made this new account. He kinda got found out by JDodge or someone else. I read it somewhere in the forums.

Oh right lol...Serves him right

How did he get found out?

Lol. It was pretty funny actually. He tried to nominate himself for a Scummy Award under the name Captain Bandwagon for DS's play in a Newbie game. JDodge pointed out that he has to be the same person because he votes the same way as DS. DS usually would make his votes in bold and all caps and Captain Bandwagon did the same.

Anyway, I've made my feelings about DS pretty clear in the past so I don't feel the need to restate what I've said previously. However, I would still prefer an Apy lynch to a DS one but DS still seemed scummy to me so either one would be fine for me on Day 1.

[Incognito]

All right. In the name of progress, I'm willing to do the following:

Unvote; Vote: Disciple Slayer

Ythill, if you really are the Vig, you seriously have quite a high opinion of yourself. What makes you think that you of all people will be killed off tonight?

[Incognito]

Assumedly, the fact that scum almost always go after claimed power roles. Unless he's scum, he's likely dead, since they won't want to risk leaving him alive.

I disagree. He's already claimed to be a one-shot, night-kill vig who will be using his shot tonight. He's also stated that he confirmed with the mod that if he chooses to kill someone and he's also targeted for a night kill, his one shot will still be effective despite the fact that he might be NK-ed. If he really is the one-shot, the scum would be better off leaving him alive since he'll basically be a vanilla townie after using up his shot.

[Incognito]

That's an interesting idea. Although, he would pretty much confirm himself as a townie, which the mafia don't want.

Also, there aren't usually many, if any, power roles in these games, I've checked a few of them.

Again, I disagree. Do you realize how much shit could happen in one night that might give everyone a skewed opinion about Ythill if we all really do accept his claim as a given? The

only

thing that would confirm his as town in my eyes would be an innocent cop investigation or his death and the mod revealing his role. Two bodies going down tonight would also help me believe him more but it still wouldn't completely solidify a town opinion of him from me.

[Incognito]

I know you're dead and all but good shot, Ythill!

I'm guessing that since we now know Claus's alignment, a good place to start would be here in Claus's Naughty and Nice list:

My secret list (as of this post)

The Nice:

Xtomx

: I like his play. He seems direct with his accusations and his defenses. His vote follows his opinions, and his opinions are consistent. Also, he does not verborrage .

Ythill

: IQ 147 boy . Has a tendency to build "infallible secret plans", but when he is not trying to solve the whole game on D1, I like his posts. Has been less wordy the last few pages, which makes me like him more. He attacks other people in a way that I see as honest scumhunting. SK is a possibility.

Shteven

: NightJay was OMGUSy, but from his abandonment, that may be personal. Shteven, on the other hand, seems to be playing solid, and is explicit in his position regarding other players, which is a towntell for me.

Charter

: The little he posted gave me a townie feeling - his case on Apy was good. Then he dissappeared. Needs prodding, but I don't think he is a lynch candidate.

The Unlisted:

Kuribo

:
Kuribo started well, and I though his initial analysis good, even if I didn't agree with some of his points (Suspicion of Ythill, loving JP). His last few posts, however, drew a WTF from me: Fishing for Direction - what is that? Xtomx is scum because he agreed about voting someone he already FoS'ed?

Holden

:
Another lurker. Some of his posts I like (the Apy accusation, the questions to DS, and those to Ythill and Incognito regarding SSF), but he has a very timid style of accusing and not voting, or voting then later saying that he didn't want to lynch the person, that I find scummy. Middle of the road for me.

The Naughty:

MafiaSSK

At first I thought he was either a clueless or a ballsy player with his bandwagon/"I'm lying". But his subsequent lurking, his strange votes on Natude, and specially JP have worsened my opinions of him. Not on the top of my scumlist, but we could do without SSF.

Apydog

Lurker. But the impression I had of him before he dissappeared was really bad, with him jumping up in the SSF bandwagon, and then jumping away after it derailed.

Justin Playfair

About as wordy as Ythill, except that he doesn't really seem to be honestly attacking anyone, and when he is, it is very timid for someone so wordy. Trying to lead the town without dirtying his hands?

And I REALLY don't like his list of possible fakeclaims. The three times out of three that I saw someone do that, they were mafia.

Incognito

He started average, and was on my neutral list until pressure started to fall on him in these last pages. I don't like the way that he reacted to the pressure on him... feels like the last game we played together, where he was scum afterall. And he seems to quickly point to anyone not himself when the heat gets off him.

This seems very similar to post 58, when he overreacts to a small accusation on him. And I have seen it as well in another game we played together.

Disciple Slayer

Votes Apy when it is cool to do so. lurks, but comes back when it is convenient. Shteven vote out of nowhere, and the "hey, let's discuss night strategy". Not lurking - Trying hard to lurk and to look like a VI - not succeeding in either,

Obviously Claus could have potentially been bussing one of his buddies when he listed them in the naughty list but I feel like the people in the Nice list and the Unlisted list might be a good link to who could potentially be the scum. What do you guys think?

Also, the fact that only two people died last night, we could probably state pretty confidently that there's not an SK in the game. The doctor died on Day 1 so nobody could have been protected and so I think the maximum amount of possible deaths happened last night.

[Incognito]

Incognito is on the naughty list, and Claus stated that they had once been scum together. Firstly, it seems unlikely for lightning to strike twice. Even without that meta argument, I think leading us down that road would be stupid, even if you're bussing him.

This is actually incorrect. Claus stated that I was scum in one of his previous games but not that we (he and I) were scum together.

The naughtiness against Justin is fairly vague.

While I agree that the naughtiness against Justin is vague, I agree with Ythill's closing summary about how the long, drawn-out argument between Claus and Justin seemed pretty realistic and that would lead me to believe that they probably aren't scum with one another.

[Incognito]

Eh? I think he means that someone will be replacing one of the inactives in our game while Xtoxm follows suit and replaces one of the inactives in Gorgon's game.

[Incognito]

Okay, you know what, Justin Playfair was the only person whom I was waiting for before coming to a decision about what to do with the information I have. The reason why I feel Claus's Naughty and Nice list is a good place to start is because of my role. I am a

Pro-Town Mason

. My Mason buddy might seem obvious to you since I basically defended him early on:

MafiaSSK

. You can see now why the early bandwagon that formed on him set off alarm bells for me. And knowing the information we know now, we see that ChronX (who was replaced by Claus) was actually scum, and he was one of the five people who hopped on the bandwagon.

Look at the Naughty portion of Claus's list. He's listed me (you now know my role), MafiaSSK (you now know his role), Disciple Slayer (we now know his role), Justin Playfair (we don't know his role but judging by the way Claus and him argued with one another, it seems likely that they aren't of the same alignment), and finally Apyadg. Apyadg is the only one on that list who gives me pause since I still feel like he is very likely scum. Further, let's look at what Claus said after he listed the people on the Naughty and Nice list:

Ythill, if you ask me, you should hit one of those on my Naughty list.

If Apyadg

is

scum, Claus would have known that listing him on the Naughty list might not be such a bad idea. I mean, Ythill basically had come to the conclusion that Apyadg was probably town (so he probably wouldn't choose to vig him anyway) and even if Ythill

did

choose to vig him and he came back as scum anyway, Claus wouldn't have looked like such a bad guy. After all, he was listed on the Naughty list and Claus would have looked like such a pro-town character for placing him there the way he did.

Now, I realize that the majority of the active players left in the game (kuribo, Xtoxm, Shteven) fall into the Nice and Unlisted portions of Claus's list so obviously all three of you have reason to be concerned. If you want my opinion though about the rest of the list, I too feel like Ho1den was probably town judging by the content of his posts. Charter really didn't do enough for me to lean one way or another about his alignment. Shteven seems relatively pro-town to me so far, and I feel like Northjayhawk's abandonment was coming more from a frustrated townie rather than floundering scum. Kuribo and Xtoxm seem interesting to me so far, and I'd bet that one of these two is scum (I'm leaning towards Xtoxm though).

So in my opinion as of right now, I feel like the remaining scum are probably Xtoxm and Apyadg. I need to do a re-read to see if anything sticks out to me about anyone else but that's where I'm leaning at the moment. If you have any questions about my claim, feel free to ask me.

[Incognito]

Woah, uhhhhhh. You know what? Now I'm not so sure I should have claimed Mason. I was reading through some of the threads in Mafia Discussion and apparently a Mason is just someone who can talk with another person at night. I thought that meant that the person you are partnered with is absolutely on the same side as you but apparently it doesn't always need to mean that. I'm still doing me re-read but I'll try to piece this together.

With regard to your question, Shteven, I claimed Mason to help everyone see things from my perspective with respect to Claus's Naughty and Nice list. From my perspective, Claus's Naughty and Nice list looked like a pretty good place to start since DS's role was known, I know my role, Justin Playfair's and Claus's argument seemed to suggest that JP is town, and then I knew MafiaSSK's role and *thought* I also knew his alignment but after reading Mafia discussion, now I'm not so sure.

Also, during the week-long Night phase, I private messaged MafiaSSK but he wasn't active during that time. He finally responded to my message on Friday (about a day after the thread opened) telling me he didn't know who he found suspicious. From my point of view, I wasn't and I am still not sure whether or not MafiaSSK will be returning to the game. And since I thought he was absolutely guaranteed to be town but seemed so anti-town at the start, I wanted to make sure that his role was known to all so that the town didn't go forward with a possible mislynch of SSK in the future if he did decide to reappear in the thread. Ughhhhhhhhh, fuck. I'm gonna need to pm the mod to try to figure this out.

[Incognito]

Rofl. Welcome back, MafiaSSK!

Yeah, I confirmed with the mod and he stated that because I'm a pro-town Mason, MafiaSSK is also one so we're both confirmed townies.

Wait, you're not sure if you should have *claimed* or if you should have *claimed Mason*?

The fact that you're worried that someone could misconstrue the ROLE you claimed rather than the FACT that you claimed is suspicious to me. Along with the fact that you claimed so early under nearly no pressure.

I was worried that MafiaSSK might not be confirmed town the way I am. So I was beginning to rethink whether or not my claim was actually worth it since I was doing it to display how close the correlation between Claus's list and possible members of the town really is. I can understand your cause for concern since I claimed under zero pressure and that would probably set off alarm bells for me if I saw the same thing (for example, like what happened with Ythill). But again, my reason for claiming was to basically prevent a mislynch of MafiaSSK in the future (since he had such an anti-town play style and still does) and to strongly suggest that Claus's list could be a pretty good "who's scum" and "who's not scum" list to base our thoughts off of.

Further, just to try and ease your suspicions a bit more, you should also consider how risky a gambit it would be for me if I were scum to claim pro-town Mason with MafiaSSK, especially considering the fact that Claus has already been eliminated from the game as scum. If we were scum and we were counterclaimed by a real pro-town Mason group, it'd be game over for us since we'd basically be able to lynch one of the pair to determine if it's true or not and then lynch the partner. And we've already assumed that there's most likely 3 scum in the game. With one down, that's two left to go so we'd essentially be doomed.

Anyhow, Xtoxm, there are two things that have been bothering me about your play thus far.

1) One is you seem to continue to concentrate on this possibility that there might be an SK in this game instead of focusing your efforts towards helping us find scum, period. The problem I see with this is I think if you were town, you'd basically be trying to help us find scum first and then worry about the SK possibility later. I can see scum worrying about an SK possibility since an SK can eliminate members of the mafia without the use of a vote much the same way a vigilante can; scum have no control over the deaths caused by an SK.

2) The other thing that bothers me is how readily you've accepted two claims thus far. You accepted Ythill's claim almost instantaneously despite the fact that at the time he did claim, he was one of your top suspects (aside from SSK and DS) and now you've accepted my claim quite readily despite the fact that I've claimed SSK as my Mason partner and SSK spent some time in your "most suspicious" list as well and you even previously made a statement about how unsure you were of my alignment.

A few questions for you:

Why are you so concerned about the possibility of an SK? Why have you willingly accepted the claims of Ythill, MafiaSSK, and even me despite the fact that for each of us, you've expressed that you were suspicious of our behaviors in the game? Wouldn't this force you to question us before moving forward and accepting the claim as simply as you have?

I really am considering placing a vote on you but I would like to wait for a status on the inactives and some input from Gorgon along with your response to these questions before coming to a decision about you.

[Incognito]

Hi. Sorry for neglecting the game. I promise to catch up and get posting again very soon.

[Incognito]

Okay, guys. I'm back. First thing I should mention is I don't think Apyadg is the correct lynch for today, especially if he doesn't get replaced before the end of this day. If he does happen to get replaced, then obviously I will be pushing hard for his lynch since he was one of my top suspects from the day before.

I know there has been some debate as of recent between kuribo and Shteven about the number of scum within the game. I was under the impression that we had settled that there are most likely three scum in this game from Day 1 discussion. If we assume that, then obviously at least one of the remaining active people is scum and this is why I don't like the Apyadg lynch for today. If we look at this optimistically, I figure it could play out one of two ways: If we hit scum today and Apyadg was in fact scum also and he isn't replaced, then after the Night ends we should all wake up tomorrow morning alive with absolutely no night kill. Then we could lynch Apyadg and hopefully solidify the town win. If we hit scum today and Apyadg isn't scum, then one of us will be killed and we'll be able to determine pretty confidently that Apyadg is most likely town and one of the actives is scum.

I've already stated previously that I have not been a fan of Xtoxm's play, especially around the time of Ythill's claim, his constant talk about an SK, and his incredible willingness to accept my claim at face value almost instantaneously. kuribo and Justin Playfair (two people who didn't even suspect me on Day 1) even expressed some doubt about my claim but yet Xtoxm (someone who suspected me at least somewhat and suspected MafiaSSK strongly) willingly accepted the claim without a single question asked. That doesn't look good to me.

Vote: Xtoxm

Xtoxm, could you explain perhaps more thoroughly why you feel Shteven or charter is likely to be scum along with Apyadg? Because I was looking back at your previous posts with respect to your thoughts about Shteven in particular and I remember this post from you:

MOTR:

Claus
Charter
Ho1den
Shteven - Leaning town
Incog - Probably the one that has interested me most. Sometimes he says something that screams "town", sometimes "I'm scum". I really can't tell.

in which you do list Shteven as MOTR, but you specifically indicate that you are leaning town on him. I'd like to see a solid case from you against Shteven if you truly believe he is scum. I feel like a lot of your posts have been mainly reactionary or in response to questions posed for someone else.

[Incognito]

Xtoxm, do you have anything to say in reference to my vote against you? Or my questions that I've asked of you?

[Incognito]

491.

Shteven says it is odd that Ythill attacked CLaus.

Do we know that as a fact? If there is a mafia-role blocker, he would have targetted Ythill, the SK could have targetted Claus meanwhile. What is the likelyhood of this?

Hjallti, your statement above seems weird to me especially coupled with your closing statement where you mention that you believe my pro-town Mason claim. If there is a mafia role-blocker and the role-blocker knew that Ythill was targeting town (me), why would the role-blocker block Ythill's action? The role-blocker would more likely allow the kill to go through under the assumption that the one-shot night-kill vig is targeting town while thinking he's targeting scum. That would allow for more than one town-kill during Night 1 which would be something that scum would not pass up. Also I think Ythill's "bah" post was probably a good indication that it was he who killed Claus. He

did

say "w00t! go town" or something along those lines.

I also don't like how you're trying to lead the cop. Why should the cop investigate me to determine if I'm telling the truth about my claim? MafiaSSK has already confirmed that he is in fact my Mason buddy and unfortunately, I will most likely be NK-ed tonight since the scum would know that I'm a confirmed townie. I would think a potential cop investigation of me would be completely useless considering the fact that I'll probably end up dead tomorrow morning. This was also partially the reason why I did claim Mason; I didn't want a potential cop to waste an investigation on either me or MafiaSSK when we're both confirmed town. I'd rather the cop direct investigations against everyone else to narrow the suspects down even further.

FoS: Hjallti

[Incognito]

I need to read through Jester's case against Shteven and his suspicions of Gorgon and Hjallti more thoroughly before coming to a decision about all of this. Jester's play certainly stands in striking contrast so far to his predecessor's, which was to be expected of course considering how he played in my Vengeful game. =)

Jester, I may have missed this but what are your feelings about Xtoxm?

[Incognito]

Coming soon: Content!

[Incognito]

I'm going to gradually ease my way back into this game.

I've been looking over the recent arguments against Shteven and do feel compelled to ask you, Shteven, about something. Back in Post 317 when you initially commented on the Claus Naughty/Nice list, I remember you specifically mentioning that you agree with all of his list except for the stances that he had taken on Justin Playfair (you thought Justin Playfair was reading town while Claus was reading him as scum) and kuribo (again you were reading kuribo as town while Claus was reading him more middle of the road). I've always wondered though why you didn't mention anything about his placement of me on that list. I don't remember you mentioning anything about you finding me suspicious prior to his list but when this list did appear, you only voice your concern about the placement of two players on this list.

Can you please explain this inconsistency?

Gorgon:

I found myself liking the content that you posted about the link between Xtoxm and ChronX within this post. I feel like ChronX's Post 49 was probably written in haste and without much thought on his part and probably accurately demonstrates the alignments of a few people (he seems to be trying to link Ho1den with MafiaSSK, Xtoxm with Ythill while seeming to label me as town, but then he contradicts himself by mentioning that my voice of authority act is a scum tactic that will come back to bite me). I'm not completely sure what this could all mean though... I know MafiaSSK is town and we know Ythill was town also. Is it possible that one or the other (Xtoxm or Ho1den) is scum and ChronX was attempting to link one of his buddies with a town player? I'm not entirely sure yet but it does seem to match my negative feelings about Xtoxm at the moment. It's something I'm going to have to look into more.

Incognito,

You're absolutely sure that MafiaSSK is your mason partner, right? And please, I know how things can make it hard to post for awhile, but I, for one, would really appreciate your participation today.

Yup, he's my mason buddy. I know he's not the most helpful person in the world but this is basically the reason why I felt the need to claim. I'd hate to see an end-game situation with him in it where the scum push a case against him causing some kind of a quick-lynch loss for the town. I just read over one of his other games and he was lynched in like 3 pages while being aligned on the side of the town. He needs to work on his playstyle obviously but he's definitely pro-town. More to come later.

[Incognito]

Shteven, I think you've misinterpreted what I was asking. Before Claus presented his summary of the players, these were your words with respect to your feelings about the Ythill/Incognito debate:

Regarding Ythill/Incognito: I think Incognito is being earnest here; and I am less certain that Ythill is.

Directly after Claus's summary, your opinion seemed to change dramatically (keep in mind, Ythill was in the Nice portion of the list and I was in the Naughty portion):

Glad to see you've caught up,

and your reads are pretty consistant with mine. Main players we disagree on would probably be Kuribo and Justin.

Kuribo's struck me as pretty solid town so far.

Why did your opinion change so dramatically after only a page's worth of additional content?

[Incognito]

I guess the thing that's interested me most about this game is the interesting dynamic that has formed now that the replacements have settled in and become familiar with the game. I'm not suggesting that any information could be drawn about possible scum pairings from these dynamics but it's still interesting nevertheless.

Gorgon (Claus list - Nice) seems to be on the side of kuribo (Claus list - Motr).
Hjallti (Claus list - Motr) seems to be on the side of Shteven (Claus list - Nice).
And then there's Jester who seems to be taking issue with Shteven, Hjallti, and Gorgon which completely breaks the dynamic at its center.

The other thing that's interested me is the impressions that I've had of the players since they've been replaced. Looking back on Ho1den's contribution, I could almost see why Ythill thought that Ho1den was solid town. Interestingly though now that Hjallti has entered the game in place of Ho1den, I just don't see that same level of solidity. I'm not saying that I find Hjallti scummy but some of his contribution has seemed somewhat strange to me. I can't tell if it's scummy or more likely to be a language issue. Before Jester entered the game I was almost certain that Apyadg was scum and now that Jester has caught up to speed, I'm really not so sure anymore.

I think the mod needs to place a deadline on this day so we could just reach a decision and learn more about people's alignments to go into Day 3.

[Incognito]

Xtoxm, what do you think of Jester?

[Incognito]

Maybe I am a good lynch, if it'll help you figure out who scum are. I get the feeling if I make it to lylo i'd be the play. Which is v bad for town.

If you're town, what makes you think your lynch would help us figure out who the scum are?

[Incognito]

A lot of people think i'm scummy, and a lot have been gunning for me. And I don't like games where's almost all the posts are large chunks of text.

I can understand the frustration of large blocks of text, but if you're town, your duty and obligation is to the town. Allowing yourself to be the lynch victim just to escape the frustration of large chunks of text seems like you're almost giving up in trying to help the town find scum. Unless of course you

are

scum and you've just given up on the game.


Further, not a lot of people find you scummy. kuribo has gone as far as to mention that he had an epiphany about you. I had my doubts about you from the opening of this Day and especially at the end of Day 1 but most people have kept an open mind about you. Jester hasn't mentioned much about you and even Gorgon began listing you as "looking more town" previously. This whole thing is beginning to seem like some appeal to emotion.

[Incognito]

Tbh, there's something about Claus's list though that makes me think you might be town. I'm not 100% sure and it's something that I've been thinking about a lot but I'll elaborate on it a bit later.

My mind is telling me that Shteven might be the better lynch for today. I'm not sold on the case against kuribo, and I feel like he's town. There are a few things I didn't like about Jester's case against Shteven that I'll get into later but I feel like a Shteven lynch might reveal a good amount of information.

[Incognito]

SSK, seriously, I think you should give me your account password so I could play on your behalf if I'm NK'ed tonight.

Shteven, what are your feelings about Hjallti? It seems like you've both shared similar viewpoints since his arrival.

[Incognito]

Unvote; Vote: Jester

[Incognito]

Incognito, why did you vote Jester? Not that he couldn't be scum ... but lately he's been looking better and better to me.

Basically I just can't shake the feeling that I may have been wrong about Apyadg. I'll admit Jester looks fairly pro-town with his analyses and contribution thus far but there's the possibility that perhaps Jester is just really good at being scum while Apyadg wasn't.

So in short, my vote was placed not because of Jester's contribution but because of his predecessor's. I also wanted to see how people would react to the unexplained vote but it didn't seem to do much unfortunately.

Just a quick note on Xtoxm:

My reason for feeling like Xtoxm might be town has to do with this portion of Claus's list:

Kuribo

: Kuribo started well, and I though his initial analysis good, even if I didn't agree with some of his points (Suspicion of Ythill, loving JP). His last few posts, however, drew a WTF from me: Fishing for Direction - what is that? Xtomx is scum because he agreed about voting someone he already FoS'ed?

I just feel like this analysis on kuribo wasn't made to defend his potential scumbuddy (Xtoxm) but instead to plot two townies (yes, I'm leaning town on kuribo) against one another in an arguing match or to potentially set up a future case against kuribo. This post by Claus to me just seems like a buddy-up attempt to Xtoxm especially coupled with his favorable analysis of Xtoxm's play.

[Incognito]

Mod:

Could you like push the deadline back a little, send out prods so we could get everyone's final thoughts, and then go from there? =)

[Incognito]

Johnson and Johnson... errr. I mean Justin and Jester.

[Incognito]

Some quick thoughts, just in case.

If Shteven comes up town tomorrow grill Hjallti and Jester. They both coasted behind a bigger target today, Jester behind Kuribo, Hjallti behind Shteven. And please take a very close look at Xtoxm, because this would have been the second mislynch for which he was the primary cheerleader.

If Shteven comes up scum don’t reflexively jump on Hjallti, because I don’t think a scum Hjallti would be clumsy enough to play as he has today if Shteven was his scum partner. This is a little tougher, but Gorgon might be a good place to look first.

These are pretty much my exact same thoughts as well. I still feel like Jester might be a better lynch today than Shteven but it seems like it's too late to change everyone's minds.

[Incognito]

I'm shocked about living through the night also. I can understand the Jester NK though; he pretty much confirmed himself as town by attacking Shteven so harshly and was pretty much the driving force behind Shteven's lynch.

My thoughts about each player so far:

• 1) kuribo: Still think this guy is town especially after learning Shteven's alignment.
  2) Justin Playfair: I've been receiving town vibes from him from the very start of the game and now is no different.
  3) MafiaSSK: My mason buddy. Obv town.
  4) Hjallti: I'm feeling like this guy is probably town. Justin Playfair covered this pretty well but if he is scum, I just wouldn't expect Hjallti to almost blatantly protect Shteven the way he did. I don't think he's today's lynch.
  5) Xtoxm: I think it's only his late Day 1 and some of Day 2 play that taints him. During my exchange with him at the end of Day 2, he felt more like exasperated town rather than scum so I think he's probably town as well.
  6)Gorgon: I think this guy might be the last scum (if there are in fact three of them). Upon reread, there was this little portion from charter that really stuck out to me:
  

  Not really sure about chronx. He hasn't really done enough for me to say he's scum, but there's something in the back of my head telling me he is.

  This statement came at the time that ChronX and I were going back and forth with our argument. It's exactly the kind of statement I would expect for one scum to say to another at a time that his scum partner is feeling a little heat without really going forward and attacking him. It's something that he would be able to use as an out later on if ChronX was in fact found as scum.
  
  Gorgon's play during Day 2 also seemed to display some accommodation for Shteven's play:
  

  Claus was pretty jolly towards Shteven, but that might easily be buddying up ...

  Indeed. Maybe, maybe not. I feel Shteven's responses to this are quite adequate, and not over-defensive. Shteven's initial premise, that it's likely that the scum are spread on the list, is valid, regardless of whether he's scum or town. Note that he didn't even dismiss the possibility that there might be scum on the 'Nice' list.

  Bottom line is ... my gut tells me Shteven is more likely to be town than not. And this analysis on Jester's attacks on Shteven doesn't win Jester many favours with me. To be honest, kuribo's attacks look much more genuine.

  Gorgon only began attempting to consider Shteven as possibly scummy at around the time that he began picking up more votes where he lists him as "looking slightly more scum".
  
  In conclusion, I agree with Xtoxm and believe that Gorgon is the correct lynch for today.

Vote: Gorgon

[Incognito]

Hm. Now that I think about it, I have a theory about Xtoxm. Anywayz, I'll wait until the players check in.

[Incognito]

Regarding theory 2), I have a question for Incog and SSK ... in your PM's, is your partner described as definite town? Please don't quote anything directly, of course, but I would like an answer to this, though.

Nah, it doesn't say specifically that MafiaSSK is also town but this is something I checked with the mod about. I mentioned previously in one of my earlier posts that the mod confirmed this; because I'm aligned on the side of the town, SSK is also.

[Incognito]

Incog, you have a theory on me? As in you think i'm scum?

Please, continue...

No, it's more a theory that you're town but I'd rather not say what it is right now.

[Incognito]

Okay, first things first. There's no point in arguing between you two. I'm not going to remove my vote but let's take this one step at a time.

Gorgon, if you're the cop, why did you choose to investigate Jester last night since even you yourself indicated that you found Jester to look fairly pro-town?

[Incognito]

I had some second thoughts on this ... I felt for a while that Jester might have latching onto kuribo's case ... and when Shteven came up scum, this feeling grew stronger; the possbility that Jester was bussing a doomed buddy came to mind. Also, Jester seemed to me to be a potentially good scum, if he was one. I got taken in big time by Shteven, so I was ready to believe anything.

I was originally going to investigate JP, though (since he is hard to read), but changed my mind. I wish I hadn't.

My two cents: I'm really not buying the claim at all. First of all, you mention that Jester could have potentially been busing a doomed buddy. I believe differently - Shteven had accumulated one vote (from kuribo) and it wasn't apparent that anyone else was completely buying into the case against Shteven. I would argue that the case really began to gain momentum moreso when Jester took hold of it and therefore for you to claim that he was busing a doomed buddy seems like a stretch; Shteven was far from doomed. I would think that this "doomed buddy" idea would be more applicable to Xtoxm whom you had voted for at the end of the day. Xtoxm had placed the third vote on Shteven, and he placed it a lot closer to when the deadline was about to strike. If anything, I think you if you were the cop you would have investigated Xtoxm as opposed to Jester. You even questioned my vote against Jester in which you mentioned the following:

I'm not sure there will be time to switch over to someone else, but I would support the lynch of Xtoxm or Hjallti in that case.

Incognito, why did you vote Jester? Not that he couldn't be scum ... but lately he's been looking better and better to me.

By you claiming that you chose to investigate Jester, you're indicating that my response to your question was enough of an influence on you to actually switch your opinion about your "investigation target" and to target Jester, a person you mentioned is "looking better and better to you".

I think not.

Vote remains on Gorgon unless someone counterclaims.

[Incognito]

All right.

Unvote

for now.

Basically if you really are the cop, we now have three confirmed townies among us. I REALLY don't buy your claim at all but I'll wait for more input from the others.

[Incognito]

P.S. Xtoxm, my theory from earlier was based on the fact that I thought that

you

might have been the cop. When I role-claimed Mason during Day 2, you seemed to accept my claim pretty readily so since I knew you were suspicious of SSK, I thought you might have investigated him during Night 1, found him to be innocent, and knew I was telling the truth. Then when you came in and voted for Gorgon at the start of Day 3, I thought you had gotten a guilty result on him last night.

Since you haven't counterclaimed though, I guess that theory goes out the window.

[Incognito]

I'll look over what you said more closely in a bit, Justin, but I just wanted to point out something that I had been pondering for awhile.

We have a first-time mod moderating our game here. I've done some research to determine if Nanosauromo went into the New Set-Up Review thread to have someone look at his set-up and determined that he did not. I also did some further research to determine if Nanosauromo has played in any mini-games as of recent and I found out that he did. The game was Mini 480: here's the game in case you're interested.

The set-up from that game looked like this:

3 Mafia:
1 Godfather (Cant be Vig'd)
2 Goons

9 Town:
1 One-Shot Vig
1 Sane Cop (Guaranteed Sane)
1 Roleblocker
2 Masons (Guaranteed Innocents)
4 Townies

This set-up looks extremely similar to our set-up as far as I've seen with the exception of the town-aligned Roleblocker (it appears we had a doctor instead). The only way I can see a set-up like ours being balanced with three scum still being around is if one of the scum is a Godfather. I'm inclined to believe that the last remaining scum would have to be a Godfather in order for our very set-up to be considered balanced. This means that even if Gorgon is telling the truth he's practically useless at helping us determine who the last scum is by way of investigative abilities. He could be useful if he helps us through good old-fashioned scum-hunting as long as we really do believe his cop claim though. That's the difficult decision though.

[Incognito]

I looked for it after Night 1 since I knew I was a mason with SSK, we found out that DS was in fact the doctor, and Ythill was in fact the one-shot night-killing vigilante. It just seemed ridiculously overbalanced on the side of the town. I was going to mention it during Day 2, but I didn't want to provide the mafia evidence that there may be a cop in our set-up. I was afraid that the scum might start fishing through the use of NKs to try and find the potential cop if I provided that information on Day 2.

[Incognito]

The epiphany was that I thought Xtoxm was a cop who had an innocent investigation on me. And since he hasn't counter-claimed, I no longer think that's what he is.

It's interesting that we both came to the same conclusion about Xtoxm.

Justin, what do you mean by your statement above?

[Incognito]

Okay guys, I have a few thoughts about this game and here's how I think we should go about it from here.

• 1)
  The Game Set-Up:
  I've been thinking about the game set-up both with and without a cop and my thoughts are as follows:
  a) With a cop: My feeling is that the only way this set-up could be balanced with a cop is if one of the scum is either a roleblocker or a godfather. The issue I have with this is that our mod has shown no indication that the scum have particular roles (a point that Gorgon has mentioned already). When the mod lists the scum after death, he just lists them as Mafia but not Mafia Goon or some other such thing. This fact is actually a point against Gorgon's cop claim and is really making me not consider his cop claim to be truthful.
  
  b) Without a cop: This set-up is actually quite balanced. A one-shot night-killing vigilante is a very swingy role; think about it: This game really opened up for the town mainly because Ythill was good enough to hit scum on the first night. Suppose Ythill hadn't hit scum during the first night... we might be in a very different situation right now. While I didn't agree with a lot of Ythill's methods or ideas or even his degree of controlling the thread, I do think we have to thank him for hitting the correct target during Night 1 and putting some extra thought into who he was targeting.
  
  2)
  Claus's Naughty And Nice List:
  When I first addressed Claus's Naughty and Nice List Day 2, I left out a little bit of information on purpose regarding why I thought it should be held at such high value. First of all, let's think about how Claus replaced into the game. He replaced ChronX, a guy who was not really suspected by anyone (except for maybe me and Justin Playfair) and who was actually listed by Ythill (our self-proclaimed one-shot night-kill vigilante) as "Probably Town". Think about this from Claus's perspective: You're scum and you know that this guy who is claiming to be the vig is telling the truth about his role. This Ythill guy has also listed your predecessor as probably town and has vowed to kill one of two people a) Incognito (a person you know to be town) or b) Shteven (your scum-buddy). When creating your Naughty and Nice list, would you really feel the need to bus one of your buddies so much that you'd actually list him/her as Naughty when you
  know
  that Ythill has thought of you to be "probably town"? I think not. The only person I thought Claus might have been busing was Apyadg/Jester but now we know that's not the case. I thought maybe Claus figured that Apyadg was a lost cause and that busing him might not be a bad decision. This is also the reason why I feel Justin Playfair is clear especially in combination with Claus's arguing with him; I'd even go as far as to consider JP to be almost like my second Mason buddy except I can't night-talk with him. I value his opinion of the game immensely.
  
  Think about it this way also: If Claus was really going to bus anyone, he probably should have bussed Shteven if anything since he was listed as Ythill's number two vig-shot choice. This fact probably set off alarm bells for Ythill also: Claus listed Incognito (his number one shot) in the Naughty list but Shteven (his number two shot) in the Nice list? That makes no sense.
  
  We now know that Shteven (nice list) was Claus's scum buddy and this is also why I feel Gorgon could be the other scum. IMO, it's either Gorgon or Xtoxm.
  
  The other thing I find wrong about listing charter as Nice is I think a lot of people kinda considered Ho1den and charter to be equivalents but yet Claus chose to put Ho1den in Middle of the Road and charter in Nice just because Ho1den seemed passive while charter's case against Apyadg-town was good? Again, it makes no damn sense. Grrrrrrrrrrrr I wanna vote for Gorgon.
  
  3)
  Plan of Action:
  I think we should just go down the Naughty and Nice list day by day. In my opinion, today's lynch should be Xtoxm since he was listed as number one on the Nice list. If Xtoxm's scum then hopefully the game will end and we'll all live happily ever after. If he's not scum though and if Gorgon really is the cop, he should investigate Justin Playfair to determine if he's town or not (I'm guessing he'll turn up town). Scum will kill tonight (either me, SSK, or Gorgon if we assume he's really the cop) and that will leave us with a new decision on Day 4. If it goes this far, my next choice to lynch would be Hjallti because of his more obvious ties to Shteven. Scum will again kill the next night leaving us at end-game. If Gorgon is still alive by then, lynch him because he's a lying scum-bag. I would like Justin Playfair to make the end-game final vote decision though if he really is an innocent.
  
  *sigh* I really don't want to believe Gorgon's claim because it really makes no sense. But I guess we can confirm this later on in the game.

Vote: Xtoxm

[Incognito]

I also want Xtoxm to answer my question regarding why he was starting to think Shteven was scummy yesterday. If he doesn't, I will definitely vote him out today. He has no valid reason to withhold this information.

Xtoxm, I do agree with Gorgon that you should definitely provide reasoning as to why you thought Shteven was scummy. A lot of your play and scum choices this game seem to be based more on a whim rather than solid cases and evidence that you provide against a person. Could you please outline why you found Shteven to be scummy?

[Incognito]

Xtoxm, I'm just as doubtful about the claim as you are but think about it logically please for a second. There are 7 people left in the game and if we assume that there's the typical three scum scenario that means that there's 1 scum left in the game and 6 of us that are town-aligned. Of the 6, 2 of us (me and MafiaSSK) are absolute confirmed townies. We essentially have two shots at mislynching without actually losing the game for the town (today's lynch and tomorrow's lynch). If Gorgon really is the cop, the scum know that he's the cop and will either a) kill him tonight or b) allow him to get an investigation and present his results tomorrow. I could see you getting upset about this if this was a LyLo situation where we might lose if we lynch incorrectly but we're fairly far from that. If Gorgon survives into an end-game scenario, then by all means you should question the validity of his claim. Right now though, we have to accept the fact that he could be telling the truth and if he is, this is a huge benefit for the town.

If you're town, I'd recommend you help us by finding evidence against the other players (Hjallti, Justin Playfair, and kuribo) that helps you believe that they're either town or scum. Gorgon is not today's lynch, period. I know I got this way when Ythill claimed Vig but please try and stop attacking him.

[Incognito]

Tonight Gorgon investigates Justin

Possibilities for the night
* Gorgon is dead/cop we have 1:4 with 2 confirmed townies (possible scum: kuribo, Justin and me)
* Gorgon survives and says Justin is innocent: 1:4 with 2 confirmed townies (possible scum Gorgon, kuribo and me)
* Gorgon survives and says Justin is mafia: lynch Justin game over or Justin is town:
next day starts with 1:2 and Gorgon is lynched

Ah, that's exactly what I wanted.

Gorgon, if you're the cop, I suggest you investigate Hjallti tonight instead of Justin Playfair and present your result tomorrow.

Btw, Gorgon, just for the record, what result did you get on Jester?

[Incognito]

Incognito what do you propose tomorrow if Xtoxm turns out to be town, and Gorgon a dead cop?

Let me think about this.

Day 3

kuribo
MafiaSSK
Incognito
Justin Playfair

Xtoxm

Gorgon
Hjallti

Night-kill: Gorgon

Day 4

kuribo
MafiaSSK
Incognito
Justin Playfair
Hjallti

Lynch: Hjallti
Night-kill: Incognito

Day 5

MafiaSSK
kuribo
Justin Playfair

SSK chooses lynchee between JP and kuribo (lol ironic eh? Game is on the line with SSK at the helm hahaha).

I dunno. I'd probably go with kuribo at that point and if JP ends up being scum then bravo, Justin. You deserved the fucking win anyway with that awesome busing work while not even ever getting a chance to speak with Claus as he replaced and being on his Naughty list and all.

*Point is, I really don't buy the claim at all and I think Gorgon will be alive tomorrow. I also don't think there's a GF in this game or a cop. The mod would have specifically mentioned Claus - Mafia Goon, shot through the head Night 1 and so on if there was a GF. And Jester as an investigation target? I wasn't born yesterday.

[Incognito]

Who is the 'you' in the previous post?

The 'you' is Justin Playfair. Your ordering has Justin Playfair above even kuribo AND Xtoxm? Any reason why?

[Incognito]

The above scenario is EXACTLY what I think will happen. And I mean EXACTLY.

If it gets to Day 5, Gorgon-scum will obviously fake-investigate JP as scum. If he lives that far, lynch Gorgon because he's a lying scum bag.

[Incognito]

Incognito, why was my post 823 exactly what you wanted?

It's not what I

want

to happen. It's what I

think

will happen. I predict an end-game scenario with one confirmed townie having to choose between Gorgon and the person Gorgon is claiming to have investigated as scum.

[Incognito]

Wait huh? Not 823... I meant 837.l

[Incognito]

Your English confuses me. X_X

[Incognito]

OH! I get what you're saying... hold on.

[Incognito]

Tonight Gorgon investigates Justin

Possibilities for the night
* Gorgon is dead/cop we have 1:4 with 2 confirmed townies (possible scum: kuribo, Justin and me)
* Gorgon survives and says Justin is innocent: 1:4 with 2 confirmed townies (possible scum Gorgon, kuribo and me)
* Gorgon survives and says Justin is mafia: lynch Justin game over or Justin is town:
next day starts with 1:2 and Gorgon is lynched

Ah, that's exactly what I wanted.

Gorgon, if you're the cop, I suggest you investigate Hjallti tonight instead of Justin Playfair and present your result tomorrow.

Btw, Gorgon, just for the record, what result did you get on Jester?

You're talking about this?

I thought you fell into my trap because you made things too cut and dry. I suggested that Gorgon investigate Justin Playfair and you went along with it like it was foolproof. It just seemed to lead you (if you're scum) to an easy scum victory.

[Incognito]

And please don't lynch kuribo or the masons...

Oh goodness, no. Me and SSK are IMMORTAL. Didn't I tell you people we're un-day-killable?

[Incognito]

No, I absolutely hate the idea that if scum plays well then they should be handed the win.

And by this I mean that I'm going to do my best to make damn sure that no matter which one of you is scum, and no matter how hard you play, the town gets a W.

I strongly agree with this.

If by that statement what you mean is "JP has looked to me suffiently pro-town for me not to lynch him ever" then I accept that, it's how I feel about Kuribo.

My comment was sarcasm. Obviously I don't want the town to lose this game either especially with the awesome position we're in right now; it seems next to impossible for the town to lose. My point is I find Justin Playfair to be a very unlikely scum candidate in this game. The only people who

really

make sense to me as being scum are either Hjallti or Gorgon.

Having said that,

unvote

for now.

[Incognito]

If you didn't have such a bulletproof claim...lol...

lol. Do I seem scummy right now or something?

[Incognito]

Incognito, you have any reason to say I would make sense in being scum (except for not having any reason why I would be town, which is the case for you, MafiaSSK and kuribo, at least)?

Yes, I'll get more detailed when I'm at home. Still at work.

[Incognito]

Okay. Instead of just focusing on Hjallti, I'm going to stop being lazy and I'll be going from the very start of the game to look at notable interactions between players alive today (alignment unknowns) and players alive earlier (alignment knowns). I'll be going alphabetically trying to find interesting interactions during this reread. I feel like this game hasn't really demonstrated me at my best while being aligned on the side of the town; I feel more like Incog-lazytown about this game since tbh, a lot of the wordiness of this game went over my head O_O but blah, here I go.

[Incognito]

Oh P.S. This won't be a PBPA but I'll be going player by player giving each player his own post in the next five posts.

[Incognito]

charter/Gorgon

Page 1

- Nothing notable. Random votes MafiaSSK-town. Mentions meta about DS-town.

Page 2

- Didn't post.

Page 3

- 1) Unvotes MafiaSSK-town after being asked about his random vote by Ythill-town.
2) The infamous case against Apyadg-town for unvoting MafiaSSK.

Sidenotes that something in the back of his mind is telling him that ChronX-scum is scum.

Page 4

- 1) Mentions that he feels like MafiaSSK-town's vote was more likely to be a joke vote than a serious one. Mentions that Apyadg-town never really responded to his main reason for voting against him.
2) Asks for clarification from Ythill-town about why he listed him as definitive town.
3) Gives reason for why he feels SSK-town isn't likely to be scum but then concludes by saying that he very well could be though.

Also mentions that he's tempted to vote against Northjayhawk-scum as well but gives him an OUT by mentioning that he's probably exhibiting newb-tells as opposed to scum-tells if anything (interesting point which I'll get back to).

Page 5

- 1) Again questions Apyadg-town about why he can't think of good questions to come up with in the game to help build his own case against MafiaSSK-town.
2) Questions Northjayhawk-scum about something related to Ythill's town or scum list.

Page 6

- Responds to Ythill-town's question about his read of Incog-town. Provides a very fence-sitting response about me.

Page 7 through 20

- Nothing.

Page 21

- Gorgon replaces in.

Page 22

- Mentions suspicions. Thinks Apyadg-town and Xtoxm would be good lynch choices. Mentions that SSK-town and Incog-town looked suspicious so it's good that they claimed masons.

Page 23

- Discusses my mason claim.

Page 24

- Mentions that Shteven-scum's knowledge of there being 3 scum is a weak tell and mentions that he's leaning town on both kuribo and Shteven.

Page 25

- 1) Pokes head in for a second.
2) Elaborates more on his suspicions linking Xtoxm with ChronX/Claus-scum. Also elaborates suspicions linking Ho1den/Hjallti with ChronX/Claus-scum but plays down these suspicions since he notes Ho1den's early treatment of ChronX <<<--- This is a very good point and it's one that leads me to believe that Ho1den and therefore Hjallti are most likely not scum with Claus/ChronX. Elaborates on suspicions of Claus-scum/Shteven-scum but again plays down those suspicions by mentioning that Claus-scum could have been buddying up to Shteven-scum. Mentions other suspicions but dismisses most of them. The main suspicion he sticks with Xtoxm.

Basically, this is one of Gorgon's more insightful posts. The only person he seems to be most suspicious of in this post is Xtoxm, and he seems to give everyone else an out to explain why they may be town instead of scum. It's certainly one of Gorgon's townier sounding posts.

Page 26

- Post 640 and Post 641 both strike me as seemingly pro-town as well. He admits to Jester-town that his "damning" case against Apyadg-town wasn't as damning as he initially thought. He still leans town on Shteven-scum and becomes intrigued by Jester-town's case against Hjallti while asking for input from players about his own case against Xtoxm.

Page 27

- Gives long-winded explainations as to why he doesn't buy the case against Shteven-scum made by Jester-town and kuribo.

Page 28

- Here's what's interesting though. It's here on Page 28 where Gorgon provides a new post that summarizes his read of the players. What's interesting about this page is Gorgon now flips his read on Shteven-scum to read as "looking less town" and Xtoxm as "looking slightly more town". This was the page where I re-popped into the thread voicing some concern about Shteven's content asking him to explain an inconsistency I found. Did Gorgon realize that distancing at that point might be a good idea?

Page 29

- Votes for Xtoxm?

Page 30

- Questions why I voted for Jester-town mentioning that he's been looking more and more town to him.

And then came Day 3.

Some conclusions:

If Gorgon is scum, he's certainly better at it than charter was. The interesting things I found about charter were the following: 1) He tried to give Northjayhawk-scum an out against Ythill-town early on by mentioning that he might be exhibiting newb-tells as opposed to scum-tells. I find this interesting because he didn't give Apyadg-town this same out when he built his case against him despite the fact that Apyadg was also a newbie.

2) That comment about ChronX possibly being scum irritates me and it's exactly the kind of comment I would expect to be said by one scum in relation to his scum buddy without bringing more attention to him.

About Gorgon: The above-mentioned posts where I list as townie-sounding do intrigue me and could point to him actually being the cop. He seemed open-minded in these posts instead of forceful and accusatory. There were some contradictions following that though: After mentioning that he didn't see the case against Shteven, on the very next page he lists him as looking less town and lists Xtoxm as looking more town. And then on the page after that, he votes for Xtoxm. I don't know what to make of these later day actions but he claimed cop so we'll assume he's the cop at least until tomorrow.

Next up: Hjallti/Ho1den

[Incognito]

My eyes hurt lol.

Does anyone else think that going about this the way I've done for charter/Gorgon is actually helpful or should I simplify this somehow? Any suggestions would be nice because this is rather tedious. x_x I'm thinking about just focusing on the interactions between players and the people we now know to be scum (Shteven and Claus/ChronX).

[Incognito]

Ho1den

Notable Interactions

Page 2

- ChronX-scum hits Ho1den pretty hard with this statement which seems like an early attempt to link Ho1den with MafiaSSK-town:

Hol1den found a quick reason to push the bandwagon momentum back at xtoxm.

Page 3

- Ho1den defends himself against ChronX-scum's statement:

Chronx - I was not pushing a bandwagon as you stated. He gave me a reason for the vote and I explained myself.

ChronX subtly attacks Ho1den yet again:

-Others are reacting rather badly to the wagon. Incognito and xtoxm are both exposing either bad or scummy play.

I don't especially like that several players are coaching xtoxm to play better.

I would prefer to let him flounder on his own and hold him accountable later. It will however, be useful to keep in mind who has been there with the virtual arm around his shoulder.

And again, Ho1den responds:

Chronx - I realize I have been "coaching" Xtoxm but my reasons are not to make him play less scummy; they are to get the answers from the person who was asked the question. We can't learn much from SSK if Xtoxm responds to all of his inconsistencies.

I think these are the interactions that Jester-town mentioned caught his eye:

Hjallti

.
:arrow: In the early game, he joined the Xtoxm band-wagon with ChronX and MafiaSSK (25), but then took a blast from ChronX for doing it (49)! An early obvious inconsistency from ChronX. What's suspicious is that ChronX's attack on Ho1den was rather mild, but Ho1den's defense was

very

graceful, almost elegant (56). It pinged my scumdar rather hard.

Although now that I read it more closely, he got the facts a little bit messed up. Ho1den joined the Xtoxm bandwagon but not with ChronX-scum; ChronX-scum was on the MafiaSSK bandwagon and not the Xtoxm one. Other than that though, he's right about ChronX-scum giving Ho1den a blast for doing it.

Page 5

- Things get slightly more interesting here. Ho1den had been on the defensive from ChronX-scum's attacks but this time Ho1den goes on the

offensive

against ChronX in this post:

@ChronX -

Its not like mafiaSSK isn't voteworthy.

Voteworthy at the time . . . okay. But SSK has made some other posts after this post trying to explain his actions and your vote has been sitting there for a while without even commenting on his new posts, not really sure I see how this is applying any pressure at all to him.

This post interests me because:
1) it is an attack against ChronX-scum (if Ho1den were scum, would he attack his partner this early this severely especially when a lot of new stuff was coming about on Page 5?) &
2) Claus mentioned something negative in his Naughty and Nice list about Ho1den: "he has a very

timid

style of attacking people". This caught my eye because I really do disagree with Claus's observation especially since I feel like the above-quoted post seems like a pretty decent attack against ChronX-scum to me. Justin Playfair mentioned this previously but was Claus going to use this as a way to attack Ho1den's eventual replacement? Is it another indication that Hjallti is town?

Also on this page Ho1den goes after ChronX-scum YET AGAIN:

I don't especially like that several players are coaching xtoxm to play better.

my gut feeling is that mafiaSSK is still possible scum, especially considering there now seems to be spirited defense on his behalf from a few places.

I'm not going to unvote the player I find most scummy to this point to satisfy the wishes of someone else who could very well be sticking up for his scumbuddy.

These type of vague accusations don't help us at all, and I'm getting tired of them. If you want to accuse me of something just do it as opposed to dropping subtle hints from which I can't defend myself. I realized you were busy from your previous post and didn't expect you to be following closely but I had a comment and put it out there. There was no need for your OMGUS response to a legitimate question.
I didn't ask you to unvote. I asked why you would have an active vote in place from something SSK said on page 1 without having even commented on anything he said afterwards.

Again, this doesn't strike me as this "timid attacking style" that Claus-scum mentioned in his Naughty and Nice list; this seems like Ho1den was attacking ChronX-scum pretty hard AND getting ready to place a vote on ChronX-scum.

Ho1den is replaced eventually.

Just one important note also about the Claus Naughty/Nice list:

Description of Ho1den (Middle of the Road):

Holden

:
Another lurker. Some of his posts I like (the Apy accusation, the questions to DS, and those to Ythill and Incognito regarding SSF), but he has a very timid style of accusing and not voting, or voting then later saying that he didn't want to lynch the person, that I find scummy. Middle of the road for me.

He calls Ho1den a lurker which is interesting because his description of Ho1den stands in striking contrast to his description of charter (Nice list):

Charter

: The little he posted gave me a townie feeling - his case on Apy was good. Then he dissappeared. Needs prodding, but I don't think he is a lynch candidate.

So Ho1den is Middle of the Road and a lurker for having 15 posts and a timid attacking style but charter is not a lurker and he's Nice but he only had 10 posts, most of which were not as wordy as Ho1den's? That's interesting. He also goes out of his way to mention that charter is not a lynch candidate but he classifies Ho1den's attacking style as scummy.

Hjallti's posts were mainly PBPAs of people. His read of Apyadg-town is interesting: He mentions that nothing can be deduced from his early play because he can't tell the difference between Newb-scum and Newb-town (I'll give Hjallti some townie points for this statement). His negative feelings about kuribo seemed to come about because of the constant argument between Xtoxm and kuribo, and he blames kuribo for keeping the arguments about the set-up alive. Early in his PBPA of kuribo, he seems to be leaning neutral but begins to receive a scummy read from him after Shteven-scum places a vote on kuribo and kuribo reacts to this vote. And because Jester was defending some of kuribo's play and not receiving the same read of kuribo that Hjallti was, he suggests that Jester and kuribo are scum partners (this is quite a deduction to make if we assume Hjallti is scum. Would scum Hjallti actually set things up so obviously, i.e. the scum grouping is either kuribo/Jester or Hjallti/Shteven? That's a tough call.)

Some conclusions: Ho1den's earlier play where he attacks ChronX-scum just doesn't read as something newb-scum would do. I might expect that from experienced scum to make the relationship between the two less transparent but not from Newb-scum. Claus's Naughty/Nice list is another tool that I use to believe that Hjallti just might be town. I

really

didn't get the same read off of Ho1den that Claus seemed to and I feel like he may have been trying to set up the attack against Ho1den's replacement.

Hjallti is interesting. He did side with Shteven but I honestly don't think he would be so obvious about his relationship with Shteven if they were both scum. I mean to set things up as such absolutes as Jester/kuribo are scum versus Hjallti/Shteven are scum? Hjallti seems like a better player than that. I think he honestly had a town read on Shteven and a scum read on kuribo and didn't feel like dropping it.

So basically, Ho1den's play does save Hjallti in this case, imo. I really do believe Hjallti is town.

[Incognito]

Next up is Justin Playfair.

[Incognito]

Justin Playfair

Page 2

- Doesn't vote MafiaSSK-town but does ask for some clarification about his early actions.

Page 3

- Huge attack against Ythill-town. More questions for MafiaSSK-town. Questions for me-town and some distrust of ChronX-scum. (

This is kinda interesting and something I just thought of. He seems to imply some distrust for ChronX's intentions early on but doesn't produce a wordy post to possibly question ChronX's motives. He produces these posts though for three people who I know to be town (Ythill, MafiaSSK, and me)

.)

Page 4

- More exchange between Ythill-town and Justin Playfair.

Page 5

- This page is interesting not really because the dialogue continues between Ythill and Justin Playfair, but I noticed something that probably led Ythill to determine that Northjayhawk was scum:

Honestly this early on, we really do not have a lot to go on yet, and I'm still trying to figure out what to make of Justin Playfair's long arguements. I do not agree with many of them against you, particularly his indirect assertion that Mafia's page one suspicion could have been believable, and for him to say that you cant criticise someone who criticised you seemed very silly to me to name just a couple problems I have with his posts.

This post feels like a buddy-up post, i.e. Northjayhawk-scum is feeling some pressure from Ythill-town so he attempts to buddy-up to him by disagreeing with the points Justin Playfair brings up against him. It almost seems like he was inviting Ythill to take a stronger look at Justin Playfair and to leave NJH out of the spotlight already. Could be indicative of JP being town.

Unrelated, this statement made me lol:

So in short, thank you for inviting me to discuss whether I beat my wife everywhere I go, but I think I’ll let you show anything even close to real evidence that I am beating her here, first.

Page 7

- Somes posts towards Ho1den and Apyadg-town. He also begins directing some posts at Shteven-scum in which he mentions some negative feelings about ChronX-scum:

I have a somewhat different take on ChronX than you do. You mention his drive-by attacks on Ho1den above but not those on Incognito. In both cases they seemed to me designed to place the player on the defensive in a manner where they have very little solid to answer, and therefore make themselves seem more defensive. Ho1den didn’t rise to the bait, but Incognito did and ChronX pushed him in a way that made me think more of someone trying to work a player into being lynched than someone trying to find scum. I was hoping to see if ChronX would continue his attack on Incognito after Incognito answered my questions to him, but unfortunately ChronX had stopped any meaningful posting by then. In any case, I have a somewhat less benevolent view of ChronX than you do.

Also more attacks on Ythill-town but his reasoning is solid. A smaller attack on Disciple Slayer-town happens here also.

This post is funny coming from Disciple Slayer considering how accurate he actually was but seemed so scummy doing it anyway:

I think most of the vocal people here are just townies arguing with each other. Only Shteven/NJH has really pinged my scumdar. My bet is that he's scum, with his buddies hiding in the shadows.

UNVOTE

VOTE: SHTEVEN

Page 8

- Seems like his focus is beginning to narrow in on Shteven-scum's contribution to the thread.

Page 9

- Made in response to Ythill's vig claim (opening the possibility of Ythill being a serial killer) and a statement towards Xtoxm.

Page 10

- Responds to Xtoxm about bread-crumbing and responds to me about Ythill's vig-claim.

At the start of Day 2, Justin Playfair lists his suspicions and doesn't exactly give Shteven-scum the most benevolent reading.

The thing about Justin Playfair is this: Much of his suspicion early on was centered around Ythill. It seems like by virtue of play-style his posts usually are directed at a single person rather than a whole cluster of people at one time. He also doesn't focus on people who are inactive in the game; only people who are actives. He does attack Shteven-scum early on when he replaces in, and he does look like he would attack ChronX-scum if he appeared in the thread again. Also by virtue of play-style it seems like JP places votes very infrequently. Because of this, it's very difficult to determine who JP is most suspicious of. I mean, yes, his P.E. # 1 throughout Day 1 seemed to be Ythill, he presented cases against Apyadg-town and Disciple Slayer-town but so did other people. I think his interactions with Shteven though when he first replaced in are notable as are the interactions between Justin Playfair and Claus when he replaced in also.

Claus attacked Justin Playfair pretty harshly (and attacked me pretty harshly as well). If JP is scum, I see no incentive for Claus to try this hard to bus JP at this stage of the game. Ythill (the game's soon-to-be-confirmed townie at that point) had already listed ChronX as "probably town" and virtually nobody else was suspicious of ChronX/Claus. When one is replacing into a game as scum, there is a time and place to bus your buddy upon replacement: See my replacing into Newbie 503. In this linked game, I was replacing a complete newbie who was at the top of everyone's list of suspicions. When I was giving player summaries, I decided to list my scum partner (Shanba) as most scummy because I felt my lynch was inevitable and listing him as highly scummy might buy us the win. It ended up working. In our game though (Mini 539), I just don't see the incentive for Claus to do that.

[Incognito]

Jester came up innocent, obviously.

Gorgon, btw, the reason why I asked about this is because I really don't want anything screwy happening tomorrow if we don't happen to lynch scum today, you really are the cop, and you do survive through the night. I could almost imagine you getting some sort of non-sane result to throw things even more into a cluster-fuck than they are already. By stating that he came up innocent, you're acknowledging that you could only be a

sane cop

and nothing screwy.

[Incognito]

Lunch time. I'll be back in a bit with kuribo.

[Incognito]

*sigh* I feel like there's almost no point in going over kuribo and Xtoxm. I feel like both of them are town. Is it not obvious to everyone else that Gorgon is lying about the cop claim? =(

[Incognito]

(except Xtoxm... Xtoxm feels it's fabricated also)

[Incognito]

Exactly! And is it a coincidence that on Claus's list, Shteven and charter were the only ones Claus listed as town-anything. Even the people in the nice list didn't get that "town-something" description.

See for yourself (I've bolded it):

The Nice:

Xtomx

: I like his play. He seems direct with his accusations and his defenses. His vote follows his opinions, and his opinions are consistent. Also, he does not verborrage .

Ythill

: IQ 147 boy . Has a tendency to build "infallible secret plans", but when he is not trying to solve the whole game on D1, I like his posts. Has been less wordy the last few pages, which makes me like him more. He attacks other people in a way that I see as honest scumhunting. SK is a possibility.

Shteven

: NightJay was OMGUSy, but from his abandonment, that may be personal. Shteven, on the other hand, seems to be playing solid, and is explicit in his position regarding other players, which is a

towntell

for me.

Charter

: The little he posted gave me a

townie feeling

- his case on Apy was good. Then he dissappeared. Needs prodding, but I don't think he is a lynch candidate.

I know it's stupid to lynch a claimed cop but to me it also seems stupid to lynch someone who you just completely believe is town.

[Incognito]

*sigh*

Gorgon, if you're scum can you just admit it? Rofl. You're caught, buddy. Just give up already. Thanks for replacing and all and playing a great game but it's ovah!

[Incognito]

Incognito, you should go over both Xtoxm and kuribo, for completeness.

Okay, I'll try to do that. Give me some time.

[Incognito]

Gorgon, sorry I've really been acting kinda thick. I guess the fact that I can only see you as scum weighs heavily on my mind to the point that I completely missed the benefits of having you around if you're actually the cop. If we lynch incorrectly today, the scum absolutely have to kill you if you're the cop. Because if they allow you to live and you present your investigation result tomorrow and you have an innocent, then obviously the other person who you didn't investigate is the other scum (why am I so thick sometimes?). That person gets lynched and the game should be over. If it isn't over at that point, then you're the last scum and you get lynched on Day 5. The key is of course that you don't investigate either me or MafiaSSK because we're confirmed innocents anyway. The only way none of this rings true is if there actually is a Godfather. I find this unlikely though because the mod didn't specify actual scum roles during death scenes. So on we proceed.

Justin Playfair, when doing my analysis of you there were certain things that did stick out to me that didn't reflect to well on you in my opinion. Early on even though you had your suspicions of Ythill, you still made it a point to direct questions towards various people about their behavior. I noticed in a lot of your earlier posts you did seem to mention some suspicions of ChronX but you never directed an elongated post questioning his actions, ever. Can you explain why you chose not to question him in the same manner that you chose to question me or Ythill or even MafiaSSK? You

did

express some concerns about his behavior but seemed to neglect questioning him about it.

Thanks for any responses you may have to this.

[Incognito]

Apart from Gorgon we still have 4 scum candidates, have we? Or are you willing to leave kuribo out of the picture?

No, you're right. I miscounted actually.

Hello? The scum aren't getting any deader.

Yeah, I've been waiting for Justin's response to my questions before progressing further.

[Incognito]

Errrr... that was a rather quick wagon. Nobody hammer please until he gets the chance to come on and at least defend himself.

[Incognito]

That doesn't matter. I've been buying Justin as town for a significant portion of this game, and I think he deserves as much a chance as anyone else for a chance to defend himself in this situation. It's not like he's lurking; he seems absent site-wide.

[Incognito]

SSK, either way, I'd recommend you DON'T place a vote on Justin until he gets a chance to defend himself. I know how quick you are with votes sometimes so please be cautious here.

[Incognito]

I agree with Justin Playfair, and I think we should support him.

Vote: Hjallti

[Incognito]

Honestly, I don't think JP is mafia. I know that looking at night-kills isn't the best way to go about figuring out who is mafia, but if JP was mafia, why would he kill Jester? He's already mentioned that he thought kuribo was breadcrumbing the role of Cop. Wouldn't he more likely take kuribo out with an NK than Jester? Earlier JP even mentioned that he thought I was a cop too. Again, why wouldn't he use his NK on me during Night 1 instead of Ythill?

Hjallti fits better than JP in my opinion. He sided with Shteven, and I think the attacks from ChronX that I cited in my analysis of Ho1den's earlier play actually weren't that severe after all. ChronX wasn't directly attacking Ho1den; he kept on making side comments about Ho1den but even after Ho1den's responses, ChronX never followed up on his attacks the same way he did with his attacks on me. I honestly think Hjallti is the better lynch in this case than Justin.

[Incognito]

Grrrr. Go town!

[Incognito]

JP = Godfather? That's evil. Well played, Justin.

[Incognito]

Mod: Just a suggestion. I think next time you have specialized mafia roles (like a Godfather), you should probably list the normal mafia members as "Goons". I think the fact that they weren't listed that way also caused some confusion among us and certainly influenced me into thinking that we could not have a Godfather.

[Incognito]

Or a cop for that matter.

[Incognito]

Kuribo, how exactly did you find me scummy?

This is a recurring problem for me, quite a few times now i've been lynched in lylo, voting the right scum.

That's also why I was happy to be lynched one day, cos I thought if I made lylo i'd be lynched...

It's probably your playstyle. For example, the way you just voted Shteven but barely provided explanation. It just looked like you knew Shteven was scum not because you found him scummy but because you were scum with him and didn't mind bussing him at that point. When you're Xtoxm-town, I think you have a tendency to not explain the reason behind why you do things. Like your vote for JP in Lylo... you didn't explain what it was you found scummy about him, you just voted. You have to be more convincing and you can't assume people see things the way you do otherwise they'll always side against you.

[Incognito]

Xtoxm, you don't lynch a claimed cop during D3

or

D4 when you have the luxury of mislynching twice and still having the possibility of winning. Plain and simple. If Gorgon was still around after two mislynches on D5 then yes, lynch him. But not D3 or D4.