Mini 880 - Mini Quick and Dirty - Game Over
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I think I'll give you a break for now.SC wrote:I'm waiting for VP to vote me and I'll omgus the hell out of him
In the meantime, I agree that amished's switch seems quite odd and edgy. Scum found, game won. Where's my medal?
Unvote, Vote:AmishedYOUR AD HERE
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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@Amished-but if you just wanted to bandwagon someone, were you not already doing that with your Sando vote?
@PZ-Because you seem intent on staying in RVS for as long as possible and I have you on auto ignore at the moment. Honestly, I couldn't tell you off the top of my head much about you at this point. If you're ready to get serious, then I'll start paying attention to you.
Do you feel you had any serious votes in there I missed?YOUR AD HERE
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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1. NoPapa Zito wrote:
1. RVS is the best part of the game.VP Baltar wrote:[1]@PZ-Because you seem intent on staying in RVS for as long as possible and [2]I have you on auto ignore at the moment. Honestly, I couldn't tell you off the top of my head much about you at this point. [3]If you're ready to get serious, then I'll start paying attention to you.
2. ORLY?
3. Would you classify my SC vote as serious or non-serious? Also, would you classify my questions to you as serious or non-serious?
2. Yes
3. No-
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Really? Cause it looks to me like he has been jacking around in the RVS this whole time. I'm anxiously awaiting his case on SC though.Amished wrote:Unless it's obviously joke-y, everyone thinks what they have to say is relevant. At this point it's pretty clear to me that he {Zito} believes that he has scum in his sights.
Ckd was wrong more often in that game than he was right by a long shot. I was ignoring him because I was pretty certain he was town and his attacks on me made no sense. In that case, ignoring him was actually very helpful to the town because it would have been a pointless town on town argument to be having. So, you're incorrect about that (and it's not really an analogue here anyhow).Amished wrote:Look at LOST mafia. I'm pretty sure you ignored CKD when he was right about two different people being townie (regardless that he thought you were scum); and I ignored Santos because I knew he was the cop and I was scum. Ignoring only hurt the town in that game (ignoring Santos helped me a bit).
I don't know what you mean by you ignored Santos.
It's not hurting me, that's for sure. If you think Zito has brought up some especially relevant point that I missed, feel free to point it out.Amished wrote:Do you really believe that ignoring people will help you?-
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Ckd wanted to lynch xRx, myself and Emptyger in the latter part of that game when I was ignoring him. He also was gung-ho about the Jebus (busdriver) lynch. He was definitely not correct.
It is indeed helping me because if he is only putting noise out there, it's not worth paying attention to. Look at his posts thus far in the game. I stand by that there is nothing of substance there and spending my time reading fluff isn't going to help me find scum in any way.
I never said I would ignore him for the entirity of the game, just until he gets out of the RVS.
Apart from that, I don't understand the point that either of you is trying to make. What benefit does the scum gain from ignoring a player's RVS-extending ramblings?YOUR AD HERE
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Yeah, sure anything CAN be scummy, but lets look at the facts and reach the most logical conclusion. The fact is that PZ has not posted anything useful. Now, you are of course welcome to fill in the blanks for him, but that's not how I play. If a player cannot explain him or herself in the thread, then don't expect me to make all kinds of assumptions to do it for them. My point stands until I see something I deem to be of substance.Amished wrote:Also, saying that they haven't posted anything beneficial sets you up (as scum) later on to give you a precedent to dismiss some arguments that the person might have against you or one of your real scum buddies in the future, especially if they caught you with something rather strong in principle but they don't express it all that well.
There's scum motivation to do anything in the game.
What! You were just trying to rake me over the coals for ignoring PZ's drival thus far and now you are saying that you ignore joking stuff? Cognative dissonance alert.Amished wrote:I don't pay attention to jokes either. I didn't even remember my joke to AGar about Berserking... If it's not related to the game at hand, I don't really focus on it.
Yep, exactly.ODDin wrote:If he ever wants, I think he can very well put his personal ending of the RVS at any point there. The way he worded it, even the "SRS BSNS" can be referred to as a joke later on
AGar's instant OMGUS on ekiM in post 132 is quite interesting. AGar, how confident in this vote?
Yer. I don't like how so many people chimed in after I said that and went "Oh, yeah. me too, me too!" Makes me feel more inclined to believe that PZ is town and there is probably at least one scum in that bunch waiting to prod his wagon on if it arose.SC wrote:I count 4 or 5 players all uselessly saying something like 'I await PZ's case with fervour', which might indicate a lack of desire to scumhunt rather than just a lack of desire to commit too early.
@Raskol v SC D1 theory discussion--that's enough folks. Raskol, that's how he plays. He's not going to change it. 'nuff said.
Edit: Actually, since you continued to harp on the issue Raskol, do you think this a scumtell from SC?
Actually, didn't he ask you your suspicions and you said look at your vote, which was actually non-existant?Sando wrote:Is it Amished whinging at me to vote? I'll vote when I want to pressure someone or lynch them.
How can you have a meta on Oj if you've never played with her as town? That doesn't make sense, especially from someone who doesn't like meta apparently. You'd think given your distaste for it, you'd at least have a complete meta.Sando wrote:There are only 2 people who I meta, Serial and Ojanen, Serial because I've known him a long long time, Ojanen because I've played 2 games with her, both with her as scum, 1 with me as her hydra partner as scum, so I trust my judgement there a lot more.
But you never replied to what your thoughts on me are. I said I was flat out ignoring PZ until he contributed something of substance and you didn't bat an eyelash. What's the difference between myself and Amished in that regard?Sando wrote:I've commented on Meta and provided it on the one person at the moment that I feel I can. I've commented on Amished refusing to even discuss joke-posts,
^this.Raskol wrote:Just one problem, Sando---no one ever asked you for a stupid rundown post. You were asked who was scummy to you and why.
lol. what?Sando wrote:1: Fair enough if I got that wrong, I got that wrong, if noone asked me for a complete rundown of everyone, fine. I was in a rush and late to the game, I may have misread it as asking me for that sort of post. However, there's not a lot of difference between asking just who is scummy, and a complete run-down post. Clearly, anyone I don't include as scummy can be assumed as being seen as townie by me, and I'm providing even less info. So there's not exactly a lot of difference.
Actually, you fabricated the format he wanted and then called him scummy for it.Sando wrote:3: I haven't refused to give my opinions, I've refused to give my opinions in the format he wants. He asked me a very general question, I attacked him over it, not sure what the problem from you is.
Sorry for being absent for awhile and I'll try to keep my activity levels up. Also, Sando is obvscum.
Unvote, Vote: Sando-
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Rockstar by trade?Oj wrote:I'm done with being on tour
A hell of a lot, really. Pointing out two or three people you think are scum =/= saying the rest of the people are town reads. I don't even know how you are jumping to such a conclusion. Nor do I think anyone would generally consider saying "The people I find scummy are XYZ" to be anti-town, and especially not scummy as you are trying to make it out to be.Sando wrote:What's the difference between saying "The people I find scummy are XYZ", and "The people I find scummy are XYZ and the people I find town are ABC"? Not a lot really.
Yeah, you were actually, by Amished if my memory serves me. And regardless of that, I'm asking you now.Sando wrote:I hadn't realised I'd been specifically asked for them, have I?
If only we were all as bright of a star as you. So your stance is you have no suspicions and saying "I find XYZ scummy" is anti-town. You need lynching in the worst way.Sando wrote:Yep, I was saying that since I'm not voting, you can take that as an indication that as of yet, I don't have any strong opinions. I can't believe that it's that hard for you guys to figure that out...
More exaggeration. No one asked you to give a list of six players who are scummy.Sando wrote:My posts will focus on a single player or only 1 or 2, I won't make big 'these 6 players are likely scum'.
Yes, very much so actually. I see you doing a lot of pouting about being questioned over not givig suspicions and then you continue to NOT ACTUALLY GIVE SUSPICIONS. What conclusion do you expect people to reach? Your Amished case is very flat and reads like something you slapped together just to get something out there. Not only that, but it is built on a false accusation and rather than admit that, you are arguing that you can infer the same thing from his statement and he is therefore still scummy. It definitely doesn't read to me like someone who is actively searching for scum. Give me a break.Sando wrote:Do you guys really think that I'm still not providing opinions on players or generating discussion? Seriously?-
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And what is that purpose?AGar wrote:I wish I could say I had no failings in my confidence, but he's gone rather inactive, so I can't get a better read of him. However, I feel it fulfills it's purpose right now.
Reading over or having read over games were not in his original statement. I'm not going to assume he has simply because that is something he COULD do. Incomplete meta is incomplete meta and could simply be scum excusing their partner's behavior without explanation.AGar wrote:Under VP's argument, I couldn't really assume a meta for either of them as scum. However, I know of several games where PZ was scum, and I could easily read them over, no? That seems to be something you somewhat overlooked, VP.
Well, I think it is a bit overboard to start calling people out when they haven't even been prodded yet. Additionally, the pace of this game is very quick and a lot of it was simply a theory debate, which ultimately wasn't very interesting and didn't help find scum. You can't expect people to be jumping at the chance to read that. Anyhow, I didn't take it personally, I just wanted to point out that it hadn't actually been that long since people had posted.SC wrote:Ok, maybe my post about activity came off as harsher than intended. I was somewhat frustrated that we have a lot of good active players and yet only about 1/3 of people were posting. I expected that given 48 hours was prod-able, there would be more activity.
See above.Sando wrote:Maybe I just know Serial well enough to have known he was basically joking and that he was only asking fairly gently, but this seems like an unnecessarily defensive reaction right after he posted it.
I think if after 8 pages you have no idea, then that is pretty scummy. That is my overall point. Not only that, but you are attacking Amished for asking you for reads, which is ridiculously stupid. That is the only stance I have seen you really take and it's founded on a false arguement that you are clinging to.Sando wrote:I'm confused. You think that me saying "I find XYZ scummy" when I actually don't would be pro-town?
I'm still waiting for you to reply as to why you ignored my ignore post and attacked Amished over it.-
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Well, see, keep in mind that you attacked me for "ignoring" you and all you were bringing to the game. Turns out, I was correct in the first place that your "SRS BSNS" wasn't very serious.PZ wrote:I can't believe how hung up you kids are about the intro SC thing.
Here's a refresher:
So, what was I really missing out when I said I would ignore you until you contributed actual content?PZ wrote:I assure you the SerialClergyman wagon is SRS BSNS. As are my questions to you {VP}. Putting someone on /ignore is scummy BTW. I'd swap my vote but I don't want to hurt a fledgling wagon.
Rhetorical answer: Nothing.
And yet you said you'd be happy to switch your vote to me if you weren't already on the very serious Serial wagon. Now you are trying to downplay it as just a bandwagon vote.
Unvote, Vote: Papa ZitoYOUR AD HERE
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It's not so much that he would have had scum motivation to be voting you in the first place, it is that he attacked me for ignoring him when I called him out on his fluff posts. He alleged that he was being serious and I was scummy because I was ignoring him. I then asked him for his case on you, since he claimed it was serious. He is now saying he didn't have one.SC wrote:Out of curiosity, what's the PZscum thought process to that bit of play? What was he trying to achieve?
So, how do you think that makes him look after he tried to sling mud at me for (validly) attacking him? He was actively extending the RVS and I called his bluff, after which he tried to slink away and say it was all a joke because he never actually had a case in the first place.
Catching up with the rest once my computer restarts.YOUR AD HERE
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Considering I specifically said he was pushing crap and that was his response, yes I am going to read it as him saying he had some actual reason. Keep in mind that he also said he couldn't vote for me (who he found scummy) because he already had his vote on the serious serial wagon.Raskol wrote:VP, do you think that Papa Zito's SRS BSNS comment was intended to imply that he had a case?
If so, why?
Funny spellings don't get you a free pass for backtracking in my book.YOUR AD HERE
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My argument isn't with his tone (though he is overreacting most of the time it seems). My argument is the fact that COMPLETELY FABRICATED an argument against Amished and then when this was pointed out he would not simply admit he was wrong, but rather concocted a hairbrain theory that saying 'I find XXX scummy' is the equivalent of giving a listing of every player.SC wrote:In short, look past the words (and his words will generally do their best to catch your eye ) and look at the position and the scumhunting, I think that's the key to finding sando's alignment.
Additionally, he attacked Amished for ignoring posts while ignoring me saying that I would be completely ignoring PZ until he gave actual content. I've pointed this out and asked him why, and yet there has been no response.
Look past the words at all of his scummy actions.YOUR AD HERE
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I'm not sure what "playing really tight" means. Can you explain what that means.PZ wrote:Sidenote: VP's playing really tight here for some reason.
As far as your SC wagon, I'm not attacking you for V/LA. I fully acknowledge that happens. My problem is that you were making it out to be an actual serious wagon. I still don't even understand what you were voting him for. "gameplay shennanigans" is wonderfully vague.
Further, you acted like I was missing out on something by ignoring your points up to that point, and in reality I still don't see what I was missing. Attacking me over illegitimate reasons rings as scummy to me.YOUR AD HERE
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I'm sorry. I did read it, but didn't have time (or the will) to give you an indepth, point-by-point response. I will address it though before I leave for vacation (ie, most likely tomorrow).SC wrote:VP - why make me do a case on Amished and then totally and completely ignore it? *slap*
All of your effort shall not be for naught!YOUR AD HERE
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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First up, addressing the Amished case by SC:
This looks pretty categorically wrong to me. He switched to Sando and then back to you after he realized Sando hadn't posted on the site for two weeks. I don't think there is anything scummy about that.SC wrote:Edgy voting at start
This is slightly better, but may be dependent upon your history with Amished. It seemed to me he was voting you for what he perceived to be rolefishing, iirc. Have you two played together before? Has he seen your role fishing?SC wrote:Pushed SC wagon when he thought PZ was leading it, when PZ pulled out he left, ignoring the 'tell' he 'found' when he thought PZ was leading it.
But the point of "keeping quiet" was to allow PZ to make his statement first, correct? I don't think there is a disconnect there.SC wrote:Odd disconnect between keeping quiet about said 'tell' and then in the reveal saying it was SC's stance on claims, which was hardly worth keeping quiet about, given it was so obvious.
While I agree with you that Amished not following up on what he considered scummy about you on his own is a bit scummy, I don't agree that his interaction with PZ says much, if anything, about his alignment.
So,
Not at the moment, no.SC wrote:Voteworthy?
Since I haven't formally said it yet, hi Charlatan! Good to play with you again (finally).
I thought you said it was scummy earlier? which is it?PZ wrote:I'd attack anyone for ignoring another player. It's plain antitown.
No. I don't understand why we are talking past one another here. You said you wagoned him for "gameplay shennanigans". What were those specifically?PZ wrote:Why what? Why was it a serious wagon? I guess I'd have to ask what a funny wagon looked like.
I realize it was an early wagon and games need wagons to start. I have always understood that and that's not the point I'm asking you about. I want to know what, specifically, made you feel at that point that SC was a good wagon to choose. What made the wagon SRS BSNS to you?
If that's his accusation, then I'd love for him to flesh it out.SC wrote:Loose vs tight playing is a poker term - playing with the best cards and rarely bluffing is playing tight, playing with a wider variety of hands and bluffing quite a lot is loose play. I imagine in mafia tight play means being careful with your votes, concentrating on obviously scummy things, where playing loose is throwing your vote around and pushing people all over the shop.
Nah, PZ is cool in my book. He's just very wrong/possibly was attempting to launch a scummy attack on my "ignore" comment.Charlatan wrote:Is there an elephant in the room that I don't know about? Do you by chance have some prior annoyance with each other? I get that vibe a little, and I think it will help me get a better read as we go on if I know.
That's essentially what I'm attacking PZ over, though I agree that Sando is doing it at least as bad if not worse.Charlatan wrote:I am mostly looking for players who are not scumhunting or those who may be fabricating reasons to [attack others]
Zorblag, since you know ODDin best, what are your thoughts on his play this game and his attacks on PZ?YOUR AD HERE
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We're not talking about a hypothetical here, however. You said you were willing to vote me earlier for ignoring you and it certainly was not similar to the hypothetical scummy action you are describing.PZ wrote:It's antitown alone. It can be scummy in context. Hypothetical example: Someone makes a case on you and you ignore the player. In this instance, I'm asking you questions and you're flat-out telling me I'm full of crap and you aren't going to answer. I call scummy on that.
This is patently false.PZ wrote:Let me make it as clear as I possibly can, VP: any wagon, regardless of how it starts or who started it, is SRS BSNS.
re: Voting SC over theory talk-OK, this is where our problem is coming from. Your assessment of SRS BSNS and mine are widely different. I still think you were stringing together a crappy attack against me because I called you out, but we're not making any progress like this and I guess I should be giving you more benefit of the doubt for now than I am.
Unvote
I'm most inclined to return my vote to Sando at the moment, but I want to see an updated count first.YOUR AD HERE
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Ok, guys, I realize deadline is close and i fully intend to catch up in this game and vote before it passes. I was traveling yesterday and had a few other games that were in the same situation as this one, except closer to deadline. i won't leave you hanging today though, so don't fret.
Going to start a quick reread now.YOUR AD HERE
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Ok, caught up. I think I'm going to oblige SC this game. His case against Amished wasn't extremely moving, but there is something about Amished's play this game that isn't quite sitting right with me. I don't generally vote on gut reasons alone, but I'm rather pressed for time atm and Sando's latest bout of stamping his feet posting is nagging at me as honest.
I don't know if I'll be around at deadline, but if I am and Amished isn't going to happen I will switch to Sando.
Unvote, Vote: AmishedYOUR AD HERE
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Had to catch up elsewhere that was more neglected, but that moved this game up to my number 1 catch up slot. Have to say I pretty strongly disagree with replacing Amished for being V/LA with another player who is V/LA for roughly the same time period....but I guess I'm not the mod.YOUR AD HERE
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Papa Zito's 409 is just one big wtf.
What, why? I don't see any problem with his PZ vote.AGar wrote:No.
oDDin, I don't like that vote.
Vote: oDDin
The Amished vote was mostly based on gut and the fact that it was the only other real lynchable wagon. Someone has to go and I was having severe misgivings about Sando at the last minute. Those weren't based on gut, so much as his frustration seeming honest to me.charlatan wrote:Of course, as it turns out, those not on the bandwagon were correct. Would it be fair to say that your vote on Amished was almost entirely based on gut? And that your decision to stay off of the Sando wagon was based on gut?
This statement plus being on the tail end of the Sando wagon = scum.Raskol wrote:I'm going to have to do a re-reading of this game: I honestly have very little idea at this point. I hope to fix that and have something useful to say in the near future.
I think ODDin is tunneling too hard on PZ over something small. I don't mind people thinking PZ is scum necessarily, but I'd like to see a better case than that if you expect to persuade people that way.
@Zorblag-would you call yesterday's lynch a policy lynch?
I think there a lot of people playing this game tentatively and I don't like it very much. I know I was away for awhile, so I can't criticize too much, but the discussion here is greatly lacking. I have some ideas where we need to be looking, but need to check some things out first.
I'd really like more concrete opinions from Zorblag, Raskol, and Papa Zito very soon.YOUR AD HERE
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Maybe my V/LA damaged my memory, but I don't remember you being suspicious of me. What is the case exactly?Scien wrote:ODDin, and you at the moment. But its weak.
On day 2, no they don't say much of anything and aren't really worth wasting your time on unless something glaringly obvious is there...which it isn't here. I would much rather single out the scum on the Sando wagon than waste my time trying to divine NK motives.Scien wrote:I guess I should ask you right off the bat, are you suggesting the NK tells us absolutely nothing?
My point was that his post had no point to it...as have most of his posts this game. Why post with a stupid ass joke on Day 2 when you haven't contributed squat all game? You see where I'm coming from.Scien wrote:Did you not think that people responding to the NK and actions afterward might have been referring to the NK? What makes you think that PapaZ's 'WTF' post didn't refer to the NK?-
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If I'm being honest, I'm still trying to gain a strong direction in this game. Even at the end of Day 1 I wasn't feeling exceedingly confident about lynching anyone, which is atypical for me generally (though it seems to happen fairly often when playing in these "elite" style games). Right now my strongest feeling is to be feeling out the lynch wagon from yesterday, as it is likely there was at least one scum on it. Out of those folks, the Amished/ABR,Raskol, Zorblag and PZ slots interest me the most.charlatan wrote:I also don't feel that I understand your positions at all, and you've also been asked to give your top suspects (by Zorblag, as I recall) and have not done so. To a significantly lesser degree, Baltar also falls into this category.
I don't really want to get into this again because it is pointless by now, but I still feel I was correct.Scein wrote:Auto ignore claim in begin game, nice. I don't like the ignoring of PapaZ's unstated intentions (wagoning for wagonings sake is the claim PapaZ later made about his intitions here).
You mean the shit wagon against confirmed town SC? Sure.Scein wrote:He was willing to throw a big fuss at the time about it, possibly trying to decrease the wagon's effectiveness.
What do you mean "something else"? What would that something else be? Also, do you not feel either of those argument were genuine?Scein wrote: And he bounced between PapaZ and Sando a bit. That could be legitimatly following concerns, or something else.
lol, I was? Where? I have barely mentioned PZ today.Scein wrote:Pretty much immediately comes back and is on PapaZ again.
Context my friend.Scein wrote:VP, I am trying to understand the end of day 1 stuff you said. You had a high suspicion of PapaZ leading up to your vacation (your vote was on him), but right before you leave you vote Amished? And say if it Amished doesn't happen you'll just vote Sando? What changed so much that you were willing to leave an unwatched vote on Amished? If Papa was a big suspicion why Sando being the alternative to Amished? Are these guys so close in your head that you move between the group so easilly?
PapaZ was not a legitimate lynch candidate when I was going on my V/LA at the end of day 1. It was going to be Sando or Amished. No lynch should never be an option on Day 1 and I like to do what I can to make sure that isn't going to happen. As I've already explained, I started to have misgivings about lynching Sando after my long dispute with him and his frustration began to feel more honest, so I put my vote on Amished, who I felt more confident about.
For your own reference:
Sando was the alternative to Amished because no lynch isn't an option for me.The Rules wrote:7. A lynch suffers the requirement of a simple majority. If there is no majority at deadline, there will be no lynch
I don't understand your last question other than it looks like an attempt to slander me, which is cool I guess.-
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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OK, I spent a good part of my Sunday closely reading Day 1 again. This was actually surprisingly helpful and just what I needed to catch my bearings.
My biggest conclusion is that there is almost certainly scum between Raskol and Agar, if not both of them.
Two things really stood out to me about Raskol. The first is that he has alot of posts like post 134 where he says this:
This is one of those "I'm so town, rally the troops" posts, but what is really the goal? How does this help Raskol find scum, cause I don't know. There are plenty of examples of this kind of "scumhunting" throughout his iso.Raskol wrote:I'd also like to see everyone either explain the reasoning behind their vote (unless they have already), or if there isn't any reason, find a reason to vote for someone and vote for them. At the very least, I think everyone should at least begin making clear efforts to show that they're working towards a position. The deadlines for this game are short, and we don't have a hell of a lot of time for feeling things out or joking around. People need to start taking positions ASAP---we'll need them later on.
There was also the very drawn out debate he was having with SC over his scumhunting style (focus on town reads). What bothers me about this is that Raskol apparently just completed a game with town-SC, and I think this is one of the most well known features of his play. Also, since Raskol said he wanted meta from everyone to get acquainted with everyone's style, I don't see how he couldn't know this. I think it was a pretty shoddy attack that could have transitioned into a mislynch on playstyle rather than actions had other people in this game not been familiar with SC.
Then of course we have Raskol's vote on the Sando wagon. While I felt he did raise a good point early early on with Sando (Sando's falsifying an attack on Amished), there is absolutely no follow through with it.
Then he simply seems to be feeling out the wagon after others pick up the attack:
And then we have his vote:Raskol wrote:Reading through what's happened in the past few days, I don't think my vote on ekiM is doing much, and charlatan is looking good atm. I'm considering whether to move to ODDin or Sando at this point; I wouldn't mind either one of them for today.
So, he votes Sando because he didn't answer his hypothetical question about who he would vig if he had the chance. WHAT IS SCUMMY ABOUT THAT!Raskol wrote:Sando ignored my question, which makes baby jesus sad.
Unvote
vote: Sando
What bothers me even more after that is that Raskol disappears for the rest of the day. While it wasn't a terribly long time, if he were town I'd think he'd at least check in with the deadline looming and no clear lynch happening when he had placed his vote. There was quite a bit going on at that time as well, so it wasn't like there was nothing to discuss.
Overall, I just see a lot of coasting and doing things to appear town rather than actually find scum from Raskol.
Unvote, Vote: Raskol
AGar I'm not going to go majorly in depth on at the moment because after that reread I'm very tired of looking at the computer, but I would say that he seemed overly lost yesterday. He only voted ekiM and when he was replaced he didn't really have a clue of what to do. I've played with AGar as town and, while he was a bit sloppy there, he most certainly did not tunnel so hard, nor was he devoid of ideas for scumhunting. Not liking it at all.
I'm not sure what I feel about ODDin. In some ways, I can understand what people are getting upset about, but another part of me just thinks he's really an overly tunneling townie. I could be wrong I guess, but I'm not feeling that lynch as much as I am Raskol.
Obviously my reread garnered more information than this, but I think that's enough for now. I upped my town reads on some people, but I don't think that's necessary to reveal. Apart from Raskol and AGar, I'm not the biggest fan of Scien, ABR, or PapaZ, but I don't know if I'd prefer any of their lynches over the first two.-
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PZ, what are your thoughts on the Raskol case I put forth? I think it's better than "fencesitting" against Troll.
Also, what are your suspicions on Scien? He's bothering me a bit, but I can't quite put my finger on it.YOUR AD HERE
Too busy with work to play mafia right now but I shall return some day!-
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I would assume, though SC didn't say specifically. I saw that he replaced later into that game, but he still would have read the first day I assume and it is pretty well known across the board that SC is generally not that helpful on Day1. What was your townread based on exactly?Oj wrote:I had a tentative townread on Raskol earlier, although he's seemed uninterested today. VP, what was the game with him and Serial, Commie mafia?YOUR AD HERE
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Well I guess Raskol won't be sticking out the rest of the day. This hurts my soul a bit, but I don't know if I can lynch a player slot that has been vacated. Given this turn of events, I'd be up for an AGar lynch, but people need to start talking here.
Unvote, Vote: AGarYOUR AD HERE
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Still showing, reiterate request for tucking.
But more seriously, your own examples (which is a uselessly small sample size) demonstrates that you're MORE likely to find scum on a mislynch than off. Out of the 9 scum in your sample games, 6 were on Day 1 mislynches. So, why would you rather look off of the wagon when the evidence you are drawing your conclusions from overwhelmingly says that you're more likely to find scum on the Sando lynch?
Because I don't jump to conclusions from one poorly-thought out theory. Should i be suspecting you for pushing bad cases?crypto wrote:Why are you so quick to distinguish my comment as idiotic rather than as scummy? Why jump to the "non-alignment-indicative idiocy/mediocrity" conclusion as opposed to the "scum pushing for a wagon on anyone from a set of three players while staying vague about his own reads so that he can give whichever potential wagon seems the most popular a boost for an easy mislynch" conclusion?
Also, how do either of these questions help you determine my alignment?YOUR AD HERE
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So, what's your point? I don't have to probe anything about you to have a feeling about your play in this game. It's not like I'm pushing for your lynch without putting out a case. If I feel you have been scummy enough that I want you lynched, I'll bring a full case. Don't worry.Scien wrote:Also while I am thinking of it, could you explain your griefs with me VP. Right now all I have is 'he is vaguely making me feel a bad vibe', and I don't recall much probing from you up till now.
er...out of actually trying to lynch scum. I posted my case and Raskol didn't respond to any of it, how am I supposed to judge his actions from there? Maybe he had a good explanation for the things he did that I just wasn't seeing. That is why I asked him to stay until the end of the day at least and give an account for himself. I wanted to hear his responses and see if my suspicions were grounded. That's how scumhunting works. Lynching a replacement solely on the actions of their predecessors is probably one of the worst things you can do unless it was something blatantly scummy.Scien wrote:
Er... out of some feeling of fairness or what? If you honestly think him your top suspect, why does the replace matter?VP wrote: Well I guess Raskol won't be sticking out the rest of the day. This hurts my soul a bit, but I don't know if I can lynch a player slot that has been vacated.
It was a stupid question when crypto asked it and it remains so when you repeated it.Scien wrote:Er. So instead you completely wrote off his actions? Please tell me you considered what his motives may have been... especially from someone replacing what seems like 2 seconds ago was your biggest suspect.
I'm not fighting with him really, just pointing out that his arguments are not a logical way of scumhunting. His approach seems noobish rather than scummy, but I'm not a very good judge at finding noob-scum because of their predispostion for bad ideas regardless of alignment.Scien wrote:At the moment I didn't have a overly negative view towards Raskol and you guys are mainly fighting about what Crypto's stance means, which is cool. Have at it.
^This is you being over-sensitive about people suspecting you.Scien wrote:I know its mainly self-interested, but you have done nothing to interrogate me even though I am suddenly giving you a bad feeling that you can't explain. Suspicion without trying to clear it up = suspicion that is furthering your goals somehow. Tell me why I am wrong.
Wow, that's amazingly vague. Explain to me how my end of the day voting was not logical given my explanation.Scien wrote:Your end of day voting... er... policies(?) still strikes me as odd.
I thought i had addressed everything you said, but I'll look back after this post.Scien wrote:Post 515 was unaddressed and contains most of my points before this big Crypto fight stuff.
I don't believe Crypto said anything of this nature actually. I'd like you to explain my motivation as scum for carrying out the actions you are accusing me of. I don't understand why it's a "fairly big black mark" or how it would help forward any goals as scum.Scien wrote:I do agree with Crypto that it is odd that he replaced what was your biggest suspect (judging from your vote), and when he comes in with a move that you apparently disapprove of (judging from the long fight now), you immediately shrug it off as newbie instead of probing it for scumminess. This actually is a fairly big black mark for you since I was mildly suspect of you before now.-
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From Post 515:
kScien wrote:
I wasn't really trying to get you to go into it again. I just hold it as a meh moment, and it is part of the reason for my current views towards you.VP wrote: I don't really want to get into this again because it is pointless by now, but I still feel I was correct.
So it would be impossible for a town player to think a wagon was bad at that point because he or she doesn't know alignments for certain...that's completely ludicrous.Scien wrote:
Heh. Hindsight is fun. You didn't know that he was town at the time, in theory, however.VP wrote:
You mean the shit wagon against confirmed town SC? Sure.
See, I get sick and tired of people on this site making nebulous accusations. What were you "reading between the lines" exactly? What could I have been 'manipulating' by saying "wtf" to a one liner from PZ? The more you reach like this, the less I'm liking you and I can't tell if it's because your scum or if it's because you're distrust me after our last game together.Scien wrote:Some other motive, I don't know what yet. I personally think the PapaZ argument sounded a bit... er... awkward we'll say. But I guess that comes from me reading between the lines. What I took for a granted implication in his 'lol scum' post, you seemed lost from to the point that it made you suspicious. Manipulation or just not seeing the situation, well I guess we will see soon enough.
What big point? I never made a big point against PZ. Please quote that. Also explain how me looking at suspects other than PZ makes me scummy.Scien wrote:
Well that probably flys since it was a quiet day until recently. When I wrote that note I was talking about you post 36 in iso. I should say that 'on PZ immediately' or whatever I said would be incorrect at this point. Even though one of your first big points was against him today, but you quickly looked elsewhere...VP wrote: lol, I was? Where? I have barely mentioned PZ today.
I don't understand what "theory smoke" you are referring to. No lynches on Day 1 are bad...that's not theory, that's common sense. That's why you're wrong.Scien wrote:
Theory smoke? And yes I agree with the theory smoke, but my confusion is more than what you are suggesting with the theory talk. If you have time to come change it before deadline, why not leave it where your suspicions lie. You said you would be back by the time deadline approached. However, you decided that your strongest suspect is not good enough anymore and subscribe to an end of day either/or? I see this as a bit funny and worth looking at. Why am I wrong?VP wrote:VP wrote:
PapaZ was not a legitimate lynch candidate when I was going on my V/LA at the end of day 1. It was going to be Sando or Amished. No lynch should never be an option on Day 1 and I like to do what I can to make sure that isn't going to happen. As I've already explained, I started to have misgivings about lynching Sando after my long dispute with him and his frustration began to feel more honest, so I put my vote on Amished, who I felt more confident about.
All in all Scien, I fail to understand any of your suspicions and I don't understand how, from a town perspective, you are perceiving any of the things you are presenting as being scummy.-
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What does this mean?Troll wrote:Albert B. Rampage isn't playing how I'm used to for him but this is a different game setting than I've seen before.
Also, why is Ojanen higher on your list than Charlatan? Reading your synopsis of the game, I would have expected their positions to be switched.
I would actually like you to comment on some people in this game who are not ODDin. You haven't really said much about anyone else since replacing in. What are your thoughts on how Day 1 went down? Who do you find scummy for reasons more than "not on a lynch wagon"?crypto wrote:I can examine all players and still focus on a small group. I'll certainly give a little more focus to that group when I'm short on time.
I really hate that you're saying "I don't have to contribute because the person I want to get lynched is already likely". I mean, if that's not a scum mentality, I don't know what is.crypto wrote:Yes, actually, I read/skimmed twenty-one pages in one night to replace into your precious fucking game, which you weren't even fucking participating in a week ago, with four days to your precious fucking deadline. I had zero reason to build a case on AGar when (a) he was already a popular lynch choice and (b) I wanted to walk the line between him and Zorblag as my top suspect before Zorblag posted his long-awaited analysis. If you really feel the need to make me, crypto, build a case on AGar, then I will, but I see zero motivation to do so.
I want your case on Zorblag before he posted please.-
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Where did I ever say I wouldn't be keeping an eye on crypto? I'll give you a pro-tip here, the best way to deal with replacements of a scummy player is to let them play for awhile and see if they make scummy actions of their own. If they do, you almost certainly have scum on your hands. If not, then your original read may be wrong.Scien wrote:I still have questions over this. You believed him scum enough to place a vote. You had questions out true. But you believed him scum. The response to the replace is to remove your vote? How is that trying to lynch scum?
Yes, you lost the opportunities to see reactions to your points on your target. That sucks. But you suspicions should remain no?
No, you are claiming I'm not suspicious of the slot when my actual stance is to observe at the moment. They are quite different approaches, but fill in the blanks however you like to make your case.Scien wrote:But the replace has you removing your vote, and apparently your suspicions too.
This makes no sense whatsoever. Why would I 'lose my nerve' to get a mislynch? If I'm scum, isn't that my main objective? And it's not like a big threat replaced into the slot...as opposed to a relative noob who would not be that difficult to get a mislynch on.Scien wrote:One possible motive. You were adding pressure on someone that eventually replaced. Seeing that they replaced, you lost the nerve to follow through and risk the town seeing you push towards a townie lynch. The replace was a good time as any to remove your vote and 'look elsewhere'.
Also doesn't make sense since I put my vote on my number two suspect, which I stated as such before Raskol replaced out.Scien wrote:Less negative on playstyle motive? You realize it is getting towards end of day, and that your target is not going to be the lynch. You need to free vote up so that you can press towards people with more townie interest on them. Replace came along and gave you a good excuse to remove your vote and lose your suspicions.
If a wagon is shit, expect me to tell you so. Like I said, I was justified in SC's flip. You can call it a scumploy all you want, facts are facts, and you're reaching to ridiculous ends.Scien wrote:I really have to go into theory? Wagon's are tools. Pressure helps get real reactions out of people. It doesn't matter if the target was good or bad really. The pressure is the goal.
Are you even looking for context AT ALL? I voted for Amished barely over a day before deadline. How likely do you think it would have been for me to get a PapaZ lynch in a day's time when he had no votes for him and multiple people had said they weren't moved by the arguments presented? Hint: basically zero.Scien wrote:You were on PapaZ. You supposedly had him as your main suspect. But were going to be away towards end game. But back in time for deadline. You change your vote to the developing either/or anyway, and say that when you get back you will change it if necessary?
I said I would make an effort to be around at deadline to help a lynch go through if Amished wasn't happening. I had already committed myself that he was the best of the possibilities presented. Now stop being ignorant with your tunnelling and actually do your research.
@crypto 557-the two posts you quoted from me do not show a difference of opinion in the least. As a replacement, especially into a suspicious slot, you have an obligation to prove your towniness to me. A case on alleged suspect Zorblag would help that. Get chopping or get lynched.
Oj wrote:
Not really able read this as a strong alignment tell either way in itself but if you look at thisAGar wrote:
I'm probably going to be lynched tomorrow, I guess that's not going to change. That's fine. I haven't played the best game, and it's a pretty fair reasoning to lynch me.
Where's the guy who supposedly strives under pressure, where's the reads and reactions t your wagon?AGar wrote:
3. There should probably be way more pressure on me since I have not really contributed as much as I would personally have liked to in this game. It actually pisses me off that no one has come after me for anything yet, because I gain reads that way.
There's a dissonance here to him currently flapping around somewhat phlegmatically, hate the defeatism.
If he's scum, he's taking it too peacefully, I would guess some bussing to have taken effect already in that case.
If you're town, fight dammit, get content out.
Especially if you want this, take the passive language out please. [/quote]AGar wrote:
Just take time to make it to the deadline before hammering so a gameplan can be figured out for tomorrow.
I agree with all of this. AGar, if this is like our newbie game together you really need to pull something together to make me believe you are town like you did in that game. I thought you learned from there that being defeatist gets you nowhere. You're being ten times worse here (with less OMGUSing) and it makes me really uncomfortable...and leaves pretty much no choice but ot lynch you.
Well crap. I guess I was remembering it wrong. I didn't really go back to look at the exact time line until today, but yeah...I don't understand his argument either way.OJ wrote:VP, Scien's referencing the fact that you unvoted PZ before going V/LA 4 days before DL while saying you'll probably vote Sando when you drop in closer to it. I think you remember wrong the vote situation though, it was Sando 4 and four others, including Zito, at 2 votes, Amished wagon wasn't born yet really.
Noobishness doesn't have everything to do with join date. His approach to the game, however, screams noob. Look at the way he wants to look for scum. It's not exactly a refined process, nor do I think it would be a very effective method.Oj wrote:Why do you think crypto is a noob? His join date is less than a month away from Zito's, Seral's and mine for instance, and he's played plenty.
For me, experienced scum hunters look for motivations as their lead scumhunting tool...which is part of the reason I do not understand Scien's tunneling on me, since a majority of the things he is presenting as points have no easily visible scum motive.
You've piqued my interest, anything concrete?PapaZ wrote:I'm worried about Ojanen.
I agree with this.PapaZ wrote:ABR has made one big posted and coasted.-
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